Back up off of Manu

[ducks]

Fact 2: Pop runs an offense that does make his PG into a pass-first PG
yes tp passes ball first but it goes to duncan or manu
then they get the assist

if tp played for the pacers he would get more assist due to the o system

duncan passes wonderfully if he did not tp would have more assist also

[ElNono]

Im dealing with the Church of Manu in this thread. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate him, I dont hate him at all, I think he is a great player, I dont think he is BS. Of course he is good. I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame and I dont think he is a superstar. I think he is a bit overrated, since he isnt really that wonderful to begin with and has never been + he cant make minutes + he simply does not have superstar potential + he has injuries alot, alot and again; alot. and he is getting old.

Maybe only in the Argentine or European hall of fames..

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, don't get upset when your opinion is called out basically because it has no credibility.
Another example: "he's injured a lot", makes no sense. In 12+ years as a pro, this is the first time he misses half a season and the playoffs. Tracy McGrady is "injured a lot".
I don't think the Church of Manu has much to do with facts.

[urunobili]

Im dealing with the Church of Manu in this thread. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate him, I dont hate him at all, I think he is a great player, I dont think he is BS. Of course he is good. I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame and I dont think he is a superstar. I think he is a bit overrated, since he isnt really that wonderful to begin with and has never been + he cant make minutes + he simply does not have superstar potential + he has injuries alot, alot and again; alot. and he is getting old.

Maybe only in the Argentine or European hall of fames..

mmmm... the hate is strong in you! it gives you focus... it made you stronger...
http://sithsigma.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/darthsidious.jpg

[Mel_13]

Fact 2: Pop runs an offense that does make his PG into a pass-first PG
yes tp passes ball first but it goes to duncan or manu
then they get the assist

if tp played for the pacers he would get more assist due to the o system

duncan passes wonderfully if he did not tp would have more assist also

You're agreeing with me.

I used the TP example to show that someone can look at a set of facts and come up with a conclusion that is consistent with those facts and still be wrong.

I agree with you that Tony's assist numbers are a product of the offensive scheme and do not indicate anything negative about his passing skills.

[Mel_13]

Im dealing with the Church of Manu in this thread. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate him, I dont hate him at all, I think he is a great player, I dont think he is BS. Of course he is good. I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame and I dont think he is a superstar. I think he is a bit overrated, since he isnt really that wonderful to begin with and has never been + he cant make minutes + he simply does not have superstar potential + he has injuries alot, alot and again; alot. and he is getting old.

Maybe only in the Argentine or European hall of fames..

I gave you the links to the profiles of three most recent male international inductees to the Basketball Hall of Fame. Do you believe that Manu's resume is not equal or superior to those actual members of the HOF?

I'm not in any COM, but I can objectively compare several sets of accomplishments.

[kace]

First off, I don't pretend to know why Pop does what he does. You have come to a conclusion that is consistent with the facts. That does not make it correct. Your conclusion represents your opinion, nothing more. I have no problem with your opinion. You may well be correct. I have a problem when you say any other conclusion means the other person is blind.

Let me give an example:

Fact 1: Tony Parker gets fewer assists than other elite point guards

Fact 2: Pop runs an offense that does make his PG into a pass-first PG

Conclusion consistent with the above facts: Pop uses Tony is this way because he knows he does not have the ability to be pass-first PG.

That conclusion fits the facts. I would argue that it is also wrong. My conclusion is that Tony runs the offense exactly the way Pop wants him to. And I further conclude that Pop utilizes Tony in this way because he believes it gives the Spurs the best chance to win.

I believe the same applies to Manu. Pop utilizes him in a way consistent with what he believes maximizes the Spurs chances of winning. As you stated, Manu cannot play at maximum intensity for 35mpg. That does not mean he could not play 35mpg. My conclusion, also an opinion consistent with facts like yours, is that Pop uses Manu on the 2nd unit and limits his minutes because he wants maximum intensity for every minute he plays. As I noted above, Tim does not play at maximum intensity for every minute he plays. He paces himself throughout the game and plays more minutes. There is no reason to believe that Manu could not do the same.

Just as Tony averages fewer APG than other elite PGs, Manu averages fewer MPG than other elite players in the NBA. It could be because of some limitation in their games or physiques or it could be by design to create the best possible team. With respect to Manu, you apparently believe the first, I believe the second. I have not called you blind or labeled you a hater for your opinion. The same tone on your part would be appreciated.

WOW. All this long argument to just come to this:

Manu cannot play at maximum intensity for 35mpg

even in a very boring and sometimes pedantic way, i'm happy you agree with that.

[Bukefal]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, don't get upset when your opinion is called out basically because it has no credibility.
Another example: "he's injured a lot", makes no sense. In 12+ years as a pro, this is the first time he misses half a season and the playoffs. Tracy McGrady is "injured a lot".
I don't think the Church of Manu has much to do with facts.

I dont get upset, really :) its just my opinion, so have you your opinion. thats nothing to get upset about.

[Mel_13]

WOW. All this long argument to just come to this:


even in a very boring and sometimes pedantic way, i'm happy you agree with that.

Saying a player cannot play at maximum intensity for 35MPG is NOT the same thing as saying a player lacks stamina.

Short and concise enough?

[Bukefal]

I gave you the links to the profiles of three most recent male international inductees to the Basketball Hall of Fame. Do you believe that Manu's resume is not equal or superior to those actual members of the HOF?

I'm not in any COM, but I can objectively compare several sets of accomplishments.

Yeah I do, manu is not equal to them. This discussion can go on and on and on and on. It doesnt matter. We'll see what happens with Manu. I like him and I hope everything works out for him with the spurs, if not, somewhere else. :toast

[rascal]

Im dealing with the Church of Manu in this thread. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate him, I dont hate him at all, I think he is a great player, I dont think he is BS. Of course he is good. I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame and I dont think he is a superstar. I think he is a bit overrated, since he isnt really that wonderful to begin with and has never been + he cant make minutes + he simply does not have superstar potential + he has injuries alot, alot and again; alot. and he is getting old.

Maybe only in the Argentine or European hall of fames..

Agree. Manu is way over rated on this site. He is not an all star player but more of a 2nd level or borderline star that doesn't get big minutes.

The spurs can definitely win without him depending on who they get back in a trade.

[rascal]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, don't get upset when your opinion is called out basically because it has no credibility.
Another example: "he's injured a lot", makes no sense. In 12+ years as a pro, this is the first time he misses half a season and the playoffs. Tracy McGrady is "injured a lot".
I don't think the Church of Manu has much to do with facts.

He has been injured alot recently and going forward the recent past is important.

[Bukefal]

Agree. Manu is way over rated on this site. He is not an all star player but more of a 2nd level or borderline star that doesn't get big minutes.

The spurs can definitely win without him depending on who they get back in a trade.

Exactly, that was also a part of my point yesterday. At the moment, spurs is nothing without superstar parker. But spurs can do good, even without Ginobili. He is not a key for us, we are good without him. thats why i said; he is not even so good as people think he is. we dont need him so bad and he is definitely not a superstar. So I would consider trading him if things are not getting better.

[rascal]

If the spurs can make a package that includes Manu to get Bosh then they can win with Bosh and some other factors working out like the emergence of Hill as a combo guard in the next couple of years.

[Mel_13]

Agree. Manu is way over rated on this site. He is not an all star player but more of a 2nd level or borderline star that doesn't get big minutes.

The spurs can definitely win without him depending on who they get back in a trade.

Which is why the Spurs need to wait. His value can increase quite a lot, but can't fall very much. At the trade deadline, they will know much more about the health of Tim and Manu and can make a better decision on whether to trade Manu, extend him, or allow his contract to expire and use the cap space.

The time may come when the best possible move for the organization will be to trade Manu. I just think this summer is not that time.

[urunobili]

:lol rascal found a new bf in Bukefal :married:

[Mel_13]

If the spurs can make a package that includes Manu to get Bosh then they can win with Bosh and some other factors working out like the emergence of Hill as a combo guard in the next couple of years.

Agree, if Bosh or other Gasol-type opportunity is offered, then trading Manu this summer makes sense. The big problem with Bosh is being able to extend his contract and still have enough money to pay Tony.

[Bukefal]

:lol rascal found a new bf in Bukefal :married:

:lol oh you are so funny :toast

[urunobili]

:lol oh you are so funny :toast

that's why i am here! You're welcome :chestbump

[manufan10]

I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame

He's one of the only basketball players to have won a gold medal, NBA championship, and Euroleague championship. Pretty incredible if you ask me.

Manu is clutch, a champion, and is all heart. He's one of the top guys in being productive with the minutes he receives. As much as I don't like Hollinger, his stats have shown that if he played more minutes he would have Kobe esque like stats. With the minutes that Manu plays he is as efficient as Kobe, yet Manu plays less minutes.


Consider these issues: 1. The Spurs are 32-11 when Ginobili plays but only 17-16 when he's out.

The way this team is designed, they really needed Manu Ginobili. Someone said that they can win without him, but going by their record, they really can't.


On a per-40 minute basis, Ginobili averaged 25.1 points, 6.2 rebounds and 5.8 assists, and did it with the fourth-best TS% among shooting guards. Those numbers are awfully similar to those of the guy who won the MVP award -- in fact, it was Ginobili, not Bryant, who was first among shooting guards in PER.But on a per-minute basis, few players can touch him. Ginobili hit 40.1 percent of his 3s, had one of the highest free-throw rates at his position, ranked seventh among guards in rebound rate, was in the top 10 among shooting guards in both blocks and steals per minute, and shot 86.0 percent from the line. His only negative stat was a subpar turnover ratio; in pretty much every other phase he was one of the 10 best players at his position.


I believe the Spurs would have to have the right deal to come along in order to trade away Ginobili. A Bosh deal or Carter or something of that nature. I love Manu, and I think he's a great player. However, my allegiance is to the Spurs not to a player. (Even if my screen name indicates otherwise.) It would be foolish of the Spurs not to listen to offers if it makes them better. However, Manu is a great player and that can't be overlooked by a year marred by injury. What did Manu do after an injury filled, plus the foul on Dirk in 2006? He came back better and stronger, and the Spurs won the championship in 2007. What happened the next year? Manu came out even better than he was in 2007. His competitive drive is amazing and I see him having a great year next year. It will be with the Spurs.

[superjames1992]

Exactly, that was also a part of my point yesterday. At the moment, spurs is nothing without superstar parker. But spurs can do good, even without Ginobili. He is not a key for us, we are good without him. thats why i said; he is not even so good as people think he is. we dont need him so bad and he is definitely not a superstar. So I would consider trading him if things are not getting better.
I think the Spurs can do just as well without Tony as with Manu.

Actually, this season, the Spurs were 8-2 during the stretch in which Parker was injured. That's a better record than they had over the course of the season.

When Manu was out injured, the Spurs were 17-16.

I disagree with your assessment.

[ducks]

the way the spurs are built is the big three have to have healthy

spurs without tp with mason running point
duncan an manu healthy
would be 1-82

[ducks]

I think the Spurs can do just as well without Tony as with Manu.

Actually, this season, the Spurs were 8-2 during the stretch in which Parker was injured. That's a better record than they had over the course of the season.

When Manu was out injured, the Spurs were 17-16.

I disagree with your assessment.

without duncan and manu
tp beat mavs and portland back to back

[Bukefal]

I think the Spurs can do just as well without Tony as with Manu.

:lol are you really saying this? Have you seen the games at all?

[Solid D]

without duncan and manu
tp beat mavs and portland back to back

...and then TP settled back down to earth the next game against Cleveland (in SA) and went 3-16 with 6 assists. Spurs 86-Cavs 97. Tony knows he can't win consistently without Timmy and Manu.

[DAF86]

Im dealing with the Church of Manu in this thread. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate him, I dont hate him at all, I think he is a great player, I dont think he is BS. Of course he is good. I just dont think he deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame and I dont think he is a superstar. I think he is a bit overrated, since he isnt really that wonderful to begin with and has never been + he cant make minutes + he simply does not have superstar potential + he has injuries alot, alot and again; alot. and he is getting old.

Maybe only in the Argentine or European hall of fames..


You identify yourself as European, so I would assume you have knowledge of the great European players of recent history.

These are the three male international players inducted this decade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEen_Dalipagi%C4%87

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dino_Meneghin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEen_Petrovi%C4%87

Are you saying that Manu's accomplishments are not comparable to these recent inductees?


I gave you the links to the profiles of three most recent male international inductees to the Basketball Hall of Fame. Do you believe that Manu's resume is not equal or superior to those actual members of the HOF?

I'm not in any COM, but I can objectively compare several sets of accomplishments.


Yeah I do, manu is not equal to them. This discussion can go on and on and on and on. It doesnt matter. We'll see what happens with Manu. I like him and I hope everything works out for him with the spurs, if not, somewhere else. :toast

Hey Bukefal, so you think that a guy that won the NBA championship, the Olympics and the Euroleague (accompanied by MVP awards in two of those 3 tournaments, and coming one vote away of getting the other MVP) is less deserving of the Hall of Fame than three guys that combined have one gold medal in the Olympics to show for? Yeah, your opinion sure makes a lot of sense.

Why don't you give it a rest and realize that maybe on this subject you didn't know as much as you thought?

Let me ask you this: have you even saw Manu play before this season?

[ducks]

...and then TP settled back down to earth the next game against Cleveland (in SA) and went 3-16 with 6 assists. Spurs 86-Cavs 97. Tony knows he can't win consistently without Timmy and Manu.

yes

any team that wins it all has to have 3 players combinned between 60-75 points

[SA210]

Absolute lock. The Basketball Hall of Fame is not an NBA Hall of Fame. Amateurs, professionals, women and international players are all eligible. Manu's body of work in the NBA, Europe, and with his National Team make him a lock.

Awards

* Italian League All-Star: 1999, 2000, 2001
* Italian League Most Improved Player: 2000, 2001, 2002
* Euroleague Finals Most Valuable Player: 2001
* FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
* Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
* NBA All-Star: 2005
* All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002, 2006
* Ideal Olympics Team: 2004
* Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player: 2004
* Olimpia de Oro: 2003, 2004 (shared with Carlos Tévez)
* 50 Greatest Euroleague Contributors: 2008
* NBA Sixth Man of the Year Award: 2008
* All-NBA Third Team: 2008



Titles

* Italian League Championship: 2001
* Italian Cup: 2001, 2002
* Euroleague: 2001
* Americas Championship: 2001
* NBA Championship: 2003, 2005, 2007
* Summer Olympic Games gold medal: 2004
* Summer Olympic Games bronze medal: 2008

:toast


If you look at Euroleague play, Manu is already high on the list (top 35 with no individual ranking given to players).

Manu is a joy to watch and one gets the impression he could play blindfolded and get by for a while just on instincts and his 6th sense on the court. Praising Manu does not take away from other players like Duncan, Parker, or his opponents. Coming from an old-time NBA connoisseur, Manu's flair is unique and his creativity in passing the basketball is in the Bird, Maravich, Magic, and Cousy class.

Put away the hate and enjoy Manu for what he is...and for as long as you can. You are blessed to be able to watch an artisan at work. He's a gift to basketball.

:toast



Manu is the heart and fire of this team. He plays with more heart than ANYONE. He stays!

:toast

[ducks]

DUNCAN HATES LOSSING
not sure how people can say manu plays with more heart then him
also looking at bowen's face you could tell he was pissed they lost

[TMTTRIO]

Manu's a lock to HOF. As we've said it's the basketball HOF and not the NBA HOF. He's been named as one of the 50 Greatest Contributors in Euroleague History and is included with some of the best including Petrovic, Kukoc, Sabonis, and others. It's weird to see D'Antoni's name under there. No wonder why D'Antoni loves Manu a lot :).


http://www.euroleague.net/history

50 GREATEST CONTRIBUTORS LIST
PLAYERS
Fragiskos Alvertis (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26209/1609/item)
Sergei Belov (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26210/1609/item)
Miki Berkowitz (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26215/1609/item)
Dejan Bodiroga (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26089/1609/item)
Wayne Brabender (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26218/1609/item)
Juan Antonio Corbalan (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26220/1609/item)
Kresimir Cosic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26223/1609/item)
Mike D'Antoni (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26226/1609/item)
Drazen Dalipagic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26229/1609/item)
Predrag Danilovic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26230/1609/item)
Mirza Delibasic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26231/1609/item)
Vlade Divac (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26234/1609/item)
Sasha Djordjevic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26236/1609/item)
Nikos Galis (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26238/1609/item)
Manu Ginobili (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26241/1609/item)
Saras Jasikevicius (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26242/1609/item)
Radivoj Korac (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26246/1609/item)
Toni Kukoc (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26248/1609/item)
Clifford Luyk (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26249/1609/item)
Pierluigi Marzorati (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26251/1609/item)
Bob McAdoo (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26252/1609/item)
Dino Meneghin (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26253/1609/item)
Bob Morse (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26212/1609/item)
Aldo Ossola (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26213/1609/item)
Theo Papaloukas (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26214/1609/item)
Anthony Parker (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26216/1609/item)
Drazen Petrovic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/27029/1609/item)
Dino Radja (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26217/1609/item)
Manolo Raga (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26219/1609/item)
Antonello Riva (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26221/1609/item)
Emiliano Rodriguez (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26222/1609/item)
Arvydas Sabonis (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26224/1609/item)
J.A. San Epifanio "Epi" (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26225/1609/item)
Walter Szczerbiak (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26227/1609/item)
Panagiotis Yiannakis (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26228/1609/item)


HEAD COACHES
Pedro Ferrandiz (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26232/1609/item)
Pini Gershon (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26233/1609/item)
Alexandar Gomelskiy (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26235/1609/item)
Dusan Ivkovic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26237/1609/item)
Boza Maljkovic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26239/1609/item)
Ettore Messina (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26240/1609/item)
Aca Nikolic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26243/1609/item)
Zeljko Obradovic (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26244/1609/item)
Dan Peterson (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26245/1609/item)
Lolo Sainz (http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/the-archive/i/26247/1609/item)



REFEREES
Artenik Arabadjian
Mikhail Davidov
Lubomir Kotleba
Yvan Mainini
Costas Rigas

[mookie2001]

he showed a lot of heart in 08 vs the lakers, and this year on the bench

[DAF86]

what is a little bit annoying is that it seems that in this thread, either you're a groupie and manu can't do bad, or you're a hater and he's bs.

he's a great great player. but still, he has stamina issues, more than ANY other star of his level in this league. if you think Pop limit him more than tony or tim for pleasure, you're blind. he does that because he thinks manu can't provide 35 mpg of his best bball in a 82 games + PO season. nobody's perfect.

There's a difference between saying that Manu has stamina problems and saying that he's fragile, which is what you do very often. Manu is playing since age 18 (with club and national play) and he just had his first serious injury at age 31 explain me how is that beign fragile?

And about the stamina thing, let me tell you that in Europe and in the National team he would play 35-40 minutes when needed without any problems, of course when that happens he doesn't run like crazy like you see him doing with the Spurs, he paces himself, but he's still very effective.

And let me ask you: do you think Tony has stamina problems too. How many times did we see him gassed out at the end of matches? Maybe he shouldn't be playing more than 30 minutes per game either :rolleyes

[Bukefal]

Hey Bukefal, so you think that a guy that won the NBA championship, the Olympics and the Euroleague (accompanied by MVP awards in two of those 3 tournaments, and coming one vote away of getting the other MVP) is less deserving of the Hall of Fame than three guys that combined have one gold medal in the Olympics to show for? Yeah, your opinion sure makes a lot of sense.

Why don't you give it a rest and realize that maybe on this subject you didn't know as much as you thought?

Let me ask you this: have you even saw Manu play before this season?

Yeah i have seen him play, have you? I do, since i think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be. Yes manu maybe has more trophy's, but basketball is a team sport, if you did not know that.

Im giving it a rest, as ive said before, this discussion can go on and on and on. You are a member of the Manu church, im not, you have your opinion, i have mine. So i agree, ill let it rest. We'll just see, thats all we can.

[DAF86]

Yeah i have seen him play, have you? I do, since i think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be. Yes manu maybe has more trophy's, but basketball is a team sport, if you did not know that.

Im giving it a rest, as ive said before, this discussion can go on and on and on. You are a member of the Manu church, im not, you have your opinion, i have mine. So i agree, ill let it rest. We'll just see, thats all we can.

First of all I'm an atheist so I'm not part of any Church.

Second I can respect your "I think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be" opinion, but I can't understand how can you say that when I'm pretty sure you haven't seen Dalipagic nor Meneghin play. I was born in 1986, just like you, and I didn't have the oportunity to see those guys play (and bealive me I'm a basketball junkie, I watch it since I was 4 years old, NBA and FIBA) so I find very difficult to bealive that you were able to see enough of them to so firmly declare: "I think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be".

And third you can have all the opinions you want but there are facts that can't be refuted, Manu's place in the HoF is one of them.

[BadOne]

Absolute lock. The Basketball Hall of Fame is not an NBA Hall of Fame. Amateurs, professionals, women and international players are all eligible. Manu's body of work in the NBA, Europe, and with his National Team make him a lock.

Awards

* Italian League All-Star: 1999, 2000, 2001
* Italian League Most Improved Player: 2000, 2001, 2002
* Euroleague Finals Most Valuable Player: 2001
* FIBA Americas Championship Most Valuable Player: 2001
* Italian Cup Most Valuable Player: 2002
* NBA All-Star: 2005
* All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002, 2006
* Ideal Olympics Team: 2004
* Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player: 2004
* Olimpia de Oro: 2003, 2004 (shared with Carlos Tévez)
* 50 Greatest Euroleague Contributors: 2008
* NBA Sixth Man of the Year Award: 2008
* All-NBA Third Team: 2008



Titles

* Italian League Championship: 2001
* Italian Cup: 2001, 2002
* Euroleague: 2001
* Americas Championship: 2001
* NBA Championship: 2003, 2005, 2007
* Summer Olympic Games gold medal: 2004
* Summer Olympic Games bronze medal: 2008

Absolutely.

If Dick Vitale, who never even played either college or professional basketball was inducted just becasue he says "baybee!", not Manu not getting in would be a beastly travesty. I take nothing away from Dicky V's high school and coaching careers, he sucked as an NBA coach. Without his popular phrase, he wouldn't be in the HOF. In my opinion, he still doesn't belong.

[urunobili]

Yeah i have seen him play, have you? I do, since i think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be. Yes manu maybe has more trophy's, but basketball is a team sport, if you did not know that.

Im giving it a rest, as ive said before, this discussion can go on and on and on. You are a member of the Manu church, im not, you have your opinion, i have mine. So i agree, ill let it rest. We'll just see, thats all we can.

http://www.epicallyfunnypictures.com/FunnyPictures/OtherForumTools/Stop_posting.jpg

[roycrikside]

the way the spurs are built is the big three have to have healthy

spurs without tp with mason running point
duncan an manu healthy
would be 1-82

Or...

32-12 = .727 with Manu
47-25 = .652 with Tony
49-26 = .653 with Tim
4-1 = .800 Just Tony
5-2 = .714 Just Tim
1-0 = 1.000 Just Tim and Manu
1-0 = 1.000 Just Tony and Manu
13-12 = .520 Just Tim and Tony
30-12 = .714 Big Three
0-1 = .000 None

5-2 = .714 Without Tim
7-3 = .700 Without Tony
22-16 = .579 Without Manu

Give it up Ducks. The Spurs have usually fared pretty well without Tony and not nearly so well without Manu. That doesn't mean I don't think Tony matters or that I don't want him on the team, but his impact and importance is not nearly as high as some people think. Without Manu though, the team is very mediocre and I think the playoffs, where they went 1-4 to a team that went 1-4 in the next round, showed it.

[symple19]

Absolutely.

If Dick Vitale, who never even played either college or professional basketball was inducted just becasue he says "baybee!", not Manu not getting in would be a beastly travesty. I take nothing away from Dicky V's high school and coaching careers, he sucked as an NBA coach. Without his popular phrase, he wouldn't be in the HOF. In my opinion, he still doesn't belong.

Dickie V is in the Hall mostly as an ambassador of the game, of which there is no equal(my opinion). His charity work is also a part of that, but he is a polarizing figure to be sure. To compare him to Manu is ridiculous, seeing as they put journalists in there as well.

As for Manu being around next year, I say fine. There won't be any way to get value for him, and I agree you can sign him after next year for a reduced price. Money will then be left over to get another guy (2 or 3) who can START and produce, both defensively and going to the basket.

"let's get back to playing smothering,soul crushing defense":flag::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::flag:

[SA210]

DUNCAN HATES LOSSING
not sure how people can say manu plays with more heart then him
also looking at bowen's face you could tell he was pissed they lost


:lol You're not sure how? That's why you never make sense. Cuz you don't know much.

[DAF86]

Or...

32-12 = .727 with Manu
47-25 = .652 with Tony
49-26 = .653 with Tim
4-1 = .800 Just Tony
5-2 = .714 Just Tim
1-0 = 1.000 Just Tim and Manu
1-0 = 1.000 Just Tony and Manu
13-12 = .520 Just Tim and Tony
30-12 = .714 Big Three
0-1 = .000 None

5-2 = .714 Without Tim
7-3 = .700 Without Tony
22-16 = .579 Without Manu

Give it up Ducks. The Spurs have usually fared pretty well without Tony and not nearly so well without Manu. That doesn't mean I don't think Tony matters or that I don't want him on the team, but his impact and importance is not nearly as high as some people think. Without Manu though, the team is very mediocre and I think the playoffs, where they went 1-4 to a team that went 1-4 in the next round, showed it.

Meh, that could easily be coincidence. I'm pretty sure that if Tony would have missed more games our record without him would be worst. The only certain thing is this team needs all those three guy playing toghether and at their level to have a chance, that's why is pretty stupid to ask the FO to trade Manu for crappy players like J.R Smith, Kaman, etc.

P/S: If you go by those numbers then you have to say that Manu and Tony are more important than Duncan, and that's just ridiculous.

[Solid D]

5-2 = .714 Without Tim
7-3 = .700 Without Tony
22-16 = .579 Without Manu


For those of you who didn't like math in school, the lower the number after the dot, the worse the team did in the column with the W.

[Kori Ellis]

Showing stats of the team can (can't) do without Manu is probably not really a good argument in this case. No one (except ducks) is saying the team is better with Tony+Tim than Manu+Tony+Tim. People are saying that a team with Another Player+Tony+Tim might be better than a team Manu+Tony+Tim because of Manu's health.

Personally, I wouldn't trade Manu. I think he brings too much to the table, and I'll take 60 games of Manu over 82 games of most other players. Plus, right now, you aren't going to get much for him until people can see his recovery. But it's not horrible for someone to say that the team might be better with someone else in Manu's place.

All that being said, I expect Manu and his bionic ankles to play 75+ games + playoffs in 2009-10. :smokin

[DAF86]

For those of you who didn't like math in school, the lower the number after the dot, the worse the team did in the column with the W.

Yeah, so? Do you really bealive that we are a better team with Tim not playing than with Tony or Manu not playing?

[ElNono]

All that being said, I expect Manu and his bionic ankles to play 75+ games + playoffs in 2009-10. :smokin

:hat

[Solid D]

Actually, I really believe that the thread is addressed to those few people who continue to dis Manu for getting injured 2 seasons in a row and keeping the Spurs from winning a championship...tacking on it being Manu's foul fault in 2006 that kept them from winning a ring 3 out 4 years. They want to trade him for being "selfish" playing in the summer and getting hurt. The Spurs need a player like Tony Parker who may insist on playing for his country but only breaks fingers and never sprains his ankle in the summertime.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Really? doesnt it have to do that you are argentine just like manu? Well, i dont want to destroy your dreams and all that. But still manu in the hall of fame?? :lol

:lmao

[Bukefal]

First of all I'm an atheist so I'm not part of any Church.

Second I can respect your "I think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be" opinion, but I can't understand how can you say that when I'm pretty sure you haven't seen Dalipagic nor Meneghin play. I was born in 1986, just like you, and I didn't have the oportunity to see those guys play (and bealive me I'm a basketball junkie, I watch it since I was 4 years old, NBA and FIBA) so I find very difficult to bealive that you were able to see enough of them to so firmly declare: "I think those three guys are still better than manu ever was and will be".

And third you can have all the opinions you want but there are facts that can't be refuted, Manu's place in the HoF is one of them.

Well, thats a bit low argument. We both werent around when wilt chamberlain or Pele in football played, but still we know he was one of the best. So your point is irrelevant. :toast

[Bukefal]

:lmao
:lmao

[DAF86]

Well, thats a bit low argument. We both werent around when wilt chamberlain or Pele in football played, but still we know he was one of the best. So your point is irrelevant. :toast

'Cause their accolades prove that they were greater than most. In this case those three guys acomplishments combined can't match Manu's. So your point is irrelevant. :toast

[Bukefal]

They were way better individually than Manu. That Manu got more trophy's, ok, but thats not because of him alone, basketball is a team sport. Manu wasnt all that great. Or are you saying he took those trophys all by himself? :P he just had the luck being on good teams, at the right time, with the right spirit, motivation and a touch of luck. You cant use that.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

They were way better individually than Manu. That Manu got more trophy's, ok, but thats not because of him alone, basketball is a team sport. Manu wasnt all that great. Or are you saying he took those trophys all by himself? :P he just had the luck being on good teams, at the right time, with the right spirit, motivation and a touch of luck. You cant use that.
:lmao

Keep talking, you're making my day. :toast

[Bukefal]

And again, im going further on this topic which goes on and on and on. You know what my friend, it doesnt really matter. Manu is a good player, wether he will be hof or not, we'll see.

Let's just toast on the spurs and on very positive things coming up for our team in the upcoming years. :toast

[Bukefal]

:lmao

Keep talking, you're making my day. :toast

Really? Bugarce edno malo ? :lol Why dont join the discussion instead? :bang

Nazdravje tatar :toast

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Really? Bugarce edno malo ? :lol Why dont join the discussion instead? :bang

Nazdravje :toast

OK I'll join.

Manu is a lock for the HOF, trying to argue against this shows either a complete lack of knowledge/understanding of this HOF thing, or a total unnecessary bias against Manu. When you're in such a small ( and predictable ) minority - Ducks, Vander, Rascal,KBP - you should stop for a second and take a closer look at your thesis.

To me there's no point fighting over who's better, they're all part of this team we love. Manu = Tony = Bruce, always been, always will be like that. Just like this team is, and will always be, Tim's team until he calls it a career, despite what some people and media have been trying to suggest this year.

[DAF86]

They were way better individually than Manu. That Manu got more trophy's, ok, but thats not because of him alone, basketball is a team sport. Manu wasnt all that great. Or are you saying he took those trophys all by himself? :P he just had the luck being on good teams, at the right time, with the right spirit, motivation and a touch of luck. You cant use that.

If you trully bealive that Manu wasn't that great then you seriously haven't seen him play much before this season. Manu not only was lucky to play for great teams, he was in many cases the main reason for those teams beign great (with the exception of the Spurs, where the main reason is Duncan) seriously try "Meneghin" to lead a team consisting of Pepe Sanchez, Nocioni, Oberto and Wolkowiski as the other starters to win a gold medal beating NBA stars along the way.

Here, take a look at some highlights of Manu before playing for the Spurs 'cause I know by now that you never saw him play while he was in Europe.

4HV0b2Mi12M

[Bukefal]

To me there's no point fighting over who's better, they're all part of this team we love.

For me, this is a good last sentence, to end this debate. It doesnt matter. I dont hate him, I like him and I hope things will work out for him.

:toast now lets all toast on the succes of our team.

[DxB]

Maybe we should trade Tony for Birdman, JR Smith AND Prince...
Hill can run the point now, we don't need Tony anymore...

I cant sense the sarcasm, so you MUST be a retard.

[Mel_13]

I cant sense the sarcasm, so you MUST be a retard.

Nice first post. Welcome to SpursTalk














(sarcasm)

[TMTTRIO]

By the way it's good to hear that Manu's out there hitting the gym and getting ready for next season :). This was just posted on his facebook.

Manu Ginobili (http://www.facebook.com/ManuGinobili?ref=mf) Hora del ir al gym, no es fácil mantener este físico privilegiado! je je. //// Gym time, gotta have more muscle than LBJ for next season... ;-)

[ElNono]

I cant sense the sarcasm, so you MUST be a retard.

You must be new. Oh wait, you are.
I was talking to ducks. Once you learn who he is, it should tell you all you need to know about my post.

[superjames1992]

By the way it's good to hear that Manu's out there hitting the gym and getting ready for next season :). This was just posted on his facebook.

Manu Ginobili (http://www.facebook.com/ManuGinobili?ref=mf)Hora del ir al gym, no es fácil mantener este físico privilegiado! je je. //// Gym time, gotta have more muscle than LBJ for next season... ;-)
Manu is setting some lofty goals there in wanting to have more muscle than LeBron, LOL.

Perhaps Manu should also hit the steroids, too, to help him out. :lol

[kromediablo]

I really hate to say this but with Manu's injury I dont expect him to be 100% healthy next year...or for that matter i dont expect anything from him until 2 years from now...booo!!

[urunobili]

I really hate to say this but with Manu's injury I dont expect him to be 100% healthy next year...or for that matter i dont expect anything from him until 2 years from now...booo!!

:lol Welcome to the board... :lol

[superjames1992]

I really hate to say this but with Manu's injury I dont expect him to be 100% healthy next year...or for that matter i dont expect anything from him until 2 years from now...booo!!
How did you come to that conclusion?

[DAF86]

I cant sense the sarcasm, so you MUST be a retard.


I really hate to say this but with Manu's injury I dont expect him to be 100% healthy next year...or for that matter i dont expect anything from him until 2 years from now...booo!!

So who do you think these "one posts guys" belong to?

[Knoxxx]

What I hear is Manu should recover fine. As the video showed, the guy has mad skillz. He's the latino version of Michael Jordan! Another key with him is he is loyal to the franchise. That means he is more likely to re-sign for a bit below market value, something that is critical for our penny-pinching FO. I predict we won't ever get anything better for the $ than Manu, and he finishes out his career in S.A. That is our best case scenario, Manu gets healthy but we limit his minutes and numbers, then get him to reup at a reasonable price during the season, then he goes BALLISTIC during the playoffs, LOL.

[doldrums]

All I can say is after viewing the team without him, it was very ugly. He better get healthy or we will need to get verrrry lucky in the free agent mkt.

[Knoxxx]

All I can say is after viewing the team without him, it was very ugly. He better get healthy or we will need to get verrrry lucky in the free agent mkt.

The dude is only 31. He showed enough flashes in early 2009 to make me believe he can still play. Once he goes up for an easy dunk and gets rejected by the rim, I'll start to worry...

[roycrikside]

J.R. Smith 8 points on 2-7 shooting and lots of crappy defense and dumb fouls on Kobe. Yeah, let's trade Manu so we can pick up this stud. :tu :rolleyes:jack:idiot

[manufan10]

The dude is only 31. He showed enough flashes in early 2009 to make me believe he can still play. Once he goes up for an easy dunk and gets rejected by the rim, I'll start to worry...

Exactly. Look at the string of games he put together before the all-star break. He scored over 30 a few times. He was looking in great form until this other ankle problem. Even after that when he came back again he was showing glimpses of the Manu we all know and love. I'll stick with Manu.

[manufan10]

j.r. Smith 8 points on 2-7 shooting and lots of crappy defense and dumb fouls on kobe. Yeah, let's trade manu so we can pick up this stud. :tu :rolleyes:jack:idiot

+1

[urunobili]

:lol for all the haters and as little as Manu played this year.. He'll be on both Top 10 blocks of the season and Top 10 dunks... :wakeup

[Knoxxx]

A healthy Manu should be a strong asset for the team and we can only wait and see at this point. I can't see us doing much better for the money from 2010 on, I think he renews with us for reasonable and we need to be looking ahead towards that too.

[NRHector]

If you trully bealive that Manu wasn't that great then you seriously haven't seen him play much before this season. Manu not only was lucky to play for great teams, he was in many cases the main reason for those teams beign great (with the exception of the Spurs, where the main reason is Duncan) seriously try "Meneghin" to lead a team consisting of Pepe Sanchez, Nocioni, Oberto and Wolkowiski as the other starters to win a gold medal beating NBA stars along the way.

Here, take a look at some highlights of Manu before playing for the Spurs 'cause I know by now that you never saw him play while he was in Europe.

4HV0b2Mi12Mmanu is the man:tu

[SequSpur]

Manu is on the fucking decline.. wake the fuck up.. he isn't going to be the savior of shit... time for him to go....

[Bukefal]

Manu is on the fucking decline.. wake the fuck up.. he isn't going to be the savior of shit... time for him to go....

:lol That's also a way to put it...

[Sotongball21]

I just can't see the Big three or the big four with bowen out of SA. I think manu will agree to take less money. ;)

[superjames1992]

Manu is on the fucking decline.. wake the fuck up.. he isn't going to be the savior of shit... time for him to go....
Tim Duncan is on the decline, too. Should we also ship him off?

[TMTTRIO]

By the way it looks like Manu's been trying out a new sport for when he decides to hang it up:lol

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v4445/146/17/71769686933/n71769686933_2681799_7088072.jpg

Hoy me desquité de Fabri, lo mío fue arrollador, así que los playoffs están 1a1. Que se agarre Tiger! Buenísima la foto! //// Great comeback at minigolf today, I tied the series, now 1-1. Great picture with Mr. Oberto.

[manufan10]

Manu is on the fucking decline.. wake the fuck up.. he isn't going to be the savior of shit... time for him to go....

How did you come to that conclusion? It was definitely not by his game play. When he played, he showed that he still played at a high level. Right before the all-star break he had a string of games where he averaged 30 points. Even after coming back from the ankle injury after the all-star break he showed glimpses of his ability. Sure he is getting up there in age, but to say he's on a decline is down right ignorant. He had his best statistical year in 2007-2008. In 2008-2009 he showed he still had the same ability, just had an ankle injury that bothered him. 2009-2010 will be another good year for Manu, especially with a whole summer to rest.

[MmP]

I don't understand how some here say Manu's game is on decline..
The guy had an oustanding olimpics, playing at his best, coming out of an injury. As for the Spurs, when he got in rythm he was playing great, until he injured again..

Use the brain people.

[manufan10]

i don't understand how some here say manu's game is on decline..
The guy had an oustanding olimpics, playing at his best, coming out of an injury. As for the spurs, when he got in rythm he was playing great, until he injured again..

Use the brain people.

+1

[urunobili]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090522/part2&sportCat=nba

ALL-TIME PLAYER WINNING PERCENTAGES
PLAYER REG. SEASON PLAYOFFS
Larry Bird .736 .604
Manu Ginobili .724 .654
Sam Jones .718 .649
Bill Russell .717 .648
Tony Parker .716 .615
Tim Duncan .712 .631
Scottie Pippen .688 .654
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar .688 .650
Magic Johnson .674 .740
Shaquille O'Neal .672 .601
Robert Horry .671 .635
Michael Jordan .659 .665
Bob Cousy .655 .578
Jerry West .638 .569

[completely deck]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090522/part2&sportCat=nba

ALL-TIME PLAYER WINNING PERCENTAGES
PLAYER REG. SEASON PLAYOFFS
Larry Bird .736 .604
Manu Ginobili .724 .654
Sam Jones .718 .649
Bill Russell .717 .648
Tony Parker .716 .615
Tim Duncan .712 .631
Scottie Pippen .688 .654
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar .688 .650
Magic Johnson .674 .740
Shaquille O'Neal .672 .601
Robert Horry .671 .635
Michael Jordan .659 .665
Bob Cousy .655 .578
Jerry West .638 .569

/thread

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090522/part2&sportCat=nba

ALL-TIME PLAYER WINNING PERCENTAGES
PLAYER REG. SEASON PLAYOFFS
Larry Bird .736 .604
Manu Ginobili .724 .654
Sam Jones .718 .649
Bill Russell .717 .648
Tony Parker .716 .615
Tim Duncan .712 .631
Scottie Pippen .688 .654
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar .688 .650
Magic Johnson .674 .740
Shaquille O'Neal .672 .601
Robert Horry .671 .635
Michael Jordan .659 .665
Bob Cousy .655 .578
Jerry West .638 .569

Wow...people forget that Manu even in last year's playoffs was responsible for clinching/closing out most of our series, from round to round...

I forgot how he was big just before the WCF in putting us over the top against the New Orlean Hornets in game 7.

[ducks]

I rember what he did against the hornets
but I rember saying he was not mentally ready for the lakers in game one
WTF

[benefactor]

I rember what he did against the hornets
but I rember saying he was not mentally ready for the lakers in game one
WTF
I don't think Alzheimer’s drugs have anything to do with Manu being mentally ready. Perhaps you are thinking more along the lines of yourself.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4425218.ece

[roycrikside]

I rember what he did against the hornets
but I rember saying he was not mentally ready for the lakers in game one
WTF

Seriously shut up already. Just shut the fuck up. You are fucking retarded. You make everyone else at Spurstalk stupider just by reading you. You wrote several posts where you wanted the Spurs to trade Manu for J.R. Smith.

J.R. SMITH.

J.R. SMITH WHO IS SINGLEHANDEDLY HANDING THE LAKERS THE WESTERN CONFERENCE TITLE ON A PLATTER.

Seriously is there a dumber fucking player in the NBA than J.R. Smith? Anyone? The guy never passes the ball and takes a bunch of no chance threes early in the shot clock every god damn game. Carmelo is on the floor during the second quarter for six minutes, red hot, and he never touches the ball in the quarter because Smith is chucking brick after brick after brick.

Yeah, let's trade Manu for Smith. I'm totally excited about a guy that can give us 10 points on 15 shots. What a valuable asset.

It makes perfect sense that you want Smith on the team because he is the dumbest fucking player in the NBA (he makes one lucky three and he gets a technical for taunting!) and you are, by far, the dumbest fucking nitwit on this board. What synergy.

Manu injured would be more useful for the Spurs than J.R. Smith because at least by not playing he's not wasting 15 possessions a game like Smith does every god damn game. Renaldo Balkman is having a better series for the Nuggets than Smith and he's wearing a suit.

You want the Spurs to trade Manu for J.R. Smith, and therefore you are not allowed to have any opinions about anything basketball related.

Ever.

Even the CoT fans on this board think you're a moron. Go away. :bang

[Bukefal]

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0710/campus.cheer.oregon/images/IMG_9683.jpg

[DAF86]

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0710/campus.cheer.oregon/images/IMG_9683.jpg

So you agree, you would trade Manu for JR Smith.

[trajik dark]

So you agree, you would trade Manu for JR Smith.i would if they threw in birdman and jones

[DAF86]

i would if they threw in birdman and jones

I bet Denver would jump at that offer.