Official Thanks for the Memories Kurt Thomas Thread

[Knoxxx]

First of let me say that I think KT is a class act, and I loved him on our roster. 10 years ago. Now he is the poster child for what is wrong with the Spurs. I'm not sure the trade that brought him here was a bad idea, but resigning him for two years at $4 million per I have to question.

Thanks to Mel, I have to pass along this hilarious profile from:

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/playerProfiles/profileDisplay.jsp?id=323

Good stuff!

Kurt Thomas is a decent post defender, who is slowly losing the ability to run forwards. Or, indeed, backwards. And his sideways movement isn't what it used to be, either. And his vertical's somewhat gone, too. Et cetera.

A capable rebounder who never had much back to the basket offense, Thomas shoots a decent face up jumpshot, but that comprises basically all of his offensive set these days. His touch around the rim is unimpressive and he has no consistent back to the basket moves. (The first half of that sentence sounded far dirtier than it was supposed to, by the way.) Slightly undersized, yet also slow these days, Thomas relies on his shot, his smarts and his strength to get by.

He used to be more athletic in his youth, though, as evidenced by the way that he has given his name (http://gymnasticszone.com/GlossaryT.htm) to a gymnastic move, or two.

Kurt Thomas fact: He is one of only three players to lead the NCAA in scoring and rebounding in the same season. The other two were Xavier McDaniel and Hank Gathers. True fact.

Nickname: "Old Crazy Eyes" in college, or "The Hurt"

[Udokafan05]

KT is the best big besides duncan on the roster. He played well when given the opportunity hitting the 15ft jumpshot, and getting offensive rebounds, which nobody else could do.

[ChumpDumper]

He's quite good. If you let him go, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone as good. The problem is the Spurs just need other players on the roster who are more athletic. I see Bonner and Oberto as more expendable than Thomas.

[ChumpDumper]

The Spurs have to trade people.. .HELLO if you don't want to get bounced int he first round again YOU HAVE TO LET PEOPLE GO!Get whom?

If we're talking someone who can replace the things he does like McDyess or the like, sure.

[Ice009]

Was Artest trade ever on the table for the Spurs?

I kept reading here at Spurstalk before the trade for Kurt that the Spurs were going after Artest. I was actually getting a little excited about getting Ron then we got Kurt and I was just a little bit disappointed. I still like Kurt though and agree with Chump that the other players need to be let go of first.

[honestfool84]

xWHf_vYZzQ8

[Udokafan05]

He was available...but he isn't the "Perfect Spur"

To be that you must be over thirty have zero offensive abilities which is what Kurt is that makes him "very Good"

when I read that he was the "second best big next to Tim on the team" I about fell out my chair laughing...

You know On those Bulls Championship teams the second Best shooting guard was .....

well that does not fucking matter does it...?

Who's better, Oberto, Bonner, Gooden? Thomas is the best big to put next to tim on the roster, but please tell me who is better?

[tav1]

Kurt Thomas had a good year last season, although he started slow with injury. I'd be happy to see him back for his final year.Thomas isn't the problem.

[angelbelow]

He's quite good. If you let him go, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone as good. The problem is the Spurs just need other players on the roster who are more athletic. I see Bonner and Oberto as more expendable than Thomas.

agreeed!

[ducks]

knows the system
not sure I would ship him

[Mel_13]

knows the system
not sure I would ship him

But surely you would shop him

[Knoxxx]

I liked Thomas quite a bit 5 years ago. If he could still play, why didn't he give us anything in the playoffs? Sure $4 million is no big deal for a team that wastes money like NY or Dallas. We are the small market Spurs that refuses to lose $, so the difference between a vet min contract of $1 million and $4 million is large, especially if it costs us part of the MLE. The full MLE could get us an impact player in 2009, instead of pinning absolutely everything on Manu and Tim BOTH being healthy. Now we have to sit around waiting for Finley to reup to see if we even have the full MLE. If he stays, our only option becomes a trade. I wonder if we could get anyone for Finley in a trade, say packaged with Bonner, Oberto, Bowen, Vaughn, and KT?

Thomas and a gimpy Duncan on the court was just not workable. Too bad we had to get Kurt at the tail end, I'd love to see more from him but I can't see it happening.

[ducks]

But surely you would shop him

no I would shop the other bigs not him
you need to 2 bigs that know the system
duncan and him
YOU shop the others

[ChumpDumper]

Oh you can shop him, just make sure you get someone else that can do most of the things he does.

[vander]

I would be happy with TD/Gooden/Mahimni/Bonner as our biggs if we could land a REAL 3 somehow

[bdictjames]

Real class act, is valuable on defense. If the Spurs get another good big, I would let go of Kurt sadly.

[exstatic]

Yet this is the lump of SHIT that Pop is quoted as calling "the Perfect Spur"

God DAMN, we got some stupid fuckers posting here. Nobody is going to put up big numbers opposite Tim, because Pop is ALWAYS going to rotate guys for different skills like 3 point shooting and rebounding and defense. In ten games that he started, Thomas grabbed 8.5 rebounds in 26 minutes played. That's a better rebounding rate than Tim, Amare, or Shaq. Idiot.

[Knoxxx]

God DAMN, we got some stupid fuckers posting here. Nobody is going to put up big numbers opposite Tim, because Pop is ALWAYS going to rotate guys for different skills like 3 point shooting and rebounding and defense. In ten games that he started, Thomas grabbed 8.5 rebounds in 26 minutes played. That's a better rebounding rate than Tim, Amare, or Shaq. Idiot.

So why didn't Thomas start? He looked awful in the playoffs, and I even like Thomas, I'm just calling it like I see it. I just feel we paid about double what he's worth is all. With our tight-ass MGT, the margin for error is near zero, not $2 million! I think we were expecting more from Thomas when inking him to the $4 million deal, that's a lot for an end-of-the-bench guy who can't give you consistent quality minutes. I'd rather see Pops Mensha-Bonsu bouncing around out there than that.

[kace]

He's quite good. If you let him go, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone as good. The problem is the Spurs just need other players on the roster who are more athletic. I see Bonner and Oberto as more expendable than Thomas.

he is a solid player. but Bruno has a very interesting, even if a little bit simplistic, way to present a well built roster.

basically, it said a roster (especially on PO) is 8 main men (2 PG, 3 wings, 3 bigs) plus 2 others rotation players (1 wing and 1 big). then 5 others players to fill the roster.

9th/10th players deserves nothing more than 3M
11-15, nothing more than 1.5

i see KT as a good and experienced 4th big at best.

KT makes 4 M. so, either he has to be in our 8 men PO rotation, which i don't think he has the level, either he's overpaid.

[exstatic]

So why didn't Thomas start? He looked awful in the playoffs, and I even like Thomas, I'm just calling it like I see it. I just feel we paid about double what he's worth is all. With our tight-ass MGT, the margin for error is near zero, not $2 million! I think we were expecting more from Thomas when inking him to the $4 million deal, that's a lot for an end-of-the-bench guy who can't give you consistent quality minutes. I'd rather see Pops Mensha-Bonsu bouncing around out there than that.

Dallas is a bad matchup for a big lineup. They play 2 PGs, a SG, a SF and Dirk. Thomas only played 16 minutes, shot 46% and grabbed 4.6 rebounds, an even HIGHER rebounding rate than his starts. Not sure what you're looking for. He's a lunch pail defender rebounder and he brought that.

[exstatic]

he is a solid player. but Bruno has a very interesting, even if a little bit simplistic, way to present a well built roster.

basically, it said a roster (especially on PO) is 8 main men (2 PG, 3 wings, 3 bigs) plus 2 others rotation players (1 wing and 1 big). then 5 others players to fill the roster.

9th/10th players deserves nothing more than 3M
11-15, nothing more than 1.5

i see KT as a good and experienced 4th big at best.

KT makes 4 M. so, either he has to be in our 8 men PO rotation, which i don't think he has the level, either he's overpaid.

Against a team that didn't run small ball for 30 minutes a game like Dallas, KT probably averages 20-22 minutes. He was the 3rd big, by minutes played in the regular season.

[Knoxxx]

Dallas is a bad matchup for a big lineup. They play 2 PGs, a SG, a SF and Dirk. Thomas only played 16 minutes, shot 46% and grabbed 4.6 rebounds, an even HIGHER rebounding rate than his starts. Not sure what you're looking for. He's a lunch pail defender rebounder and he brought that.

I don't see him that effective on defensive. He can grab a few boards, brings zero on offense, and blocks no shots. Not worth $4 million, he a small step up above the vet min, like I said perhaps LLE. You really think he is worth it if he costs us a solid MLE player in 2009? That is the way I am seeing the situation.

[ss1986v2]

I don't see him that effective on defensive. He can grab a few boards, brings zero on offense, and blocks no shots. Not worth $4 million, he a small step up above the vet min, like I said perhaps LLE. You really think he is worth it if he costs us a solid MLE player in 2009? That is the way I am seeing the situation.

i see him as a decent low post defender, who can grab a few rebounds and can hit a jumper out to about 17 ft. the going rate for that is about 3-4 mil in the nba today whether we like it or not (hell, even kwame brown found someone to pay him 4 mil).

as for the MLE issue, unless we move and/or cut both bowen and oberto, we wont have room under the tax line, KT or no KT. and then, id rather move finley or bonner before KT.

[benefactor]

I don't see him that effective on defensive. He can grab a few boards, brings zero on offense, and blocks no shots. Not worth $4 million, he a small step up above the vet min, like I said perhaps LLE. You really think he is worth it if he costs us a solid MLE player in 2009? That is the way I am seeing the situation.
This post just lost you whatever little credibility you had.

[benefactor]

I cannot post anywhere unless I mention trading Manu.

[Knoxxx]

This post just lost you whatever little credibility you had.

I agree, anyone but L.A.

As far as your comment, too vague to understand. I guess you are on a higher level of intelligence, so perhaps this thread is not worth your time. Good day.

:king

[Knoxxx]

i see him as a decent low post defender, who can grab a few rebounds and can hit a jumper out to about 17 ft. the going rate for that is about 3-4 mil in the nba today whether we like it or not (hell, even kwame brown found someone to pay him 4 mil).

as for the MLE issue, unless we move and/or cut both bowen and oberto, we wont have room under the tax line, KT or no KT. and then, id rather move finley or bonner before KT.

It's the going rate for dumb asses like Cuban that will probably die broke and without a championship, and the Knicks, all time kings of the dufus front office 10 years running.

[exstatic]

I don't see him that effective on defensive. He can grab a few boards, brings zero on offense, and blocks no shots. Not worth $4 million, he a small step up above the vet min, like I said perhaps LLE. You really think he is worth it if he costs us a solid MLE player in 2009? That is the way I am seeing the situation.

He's one of the best pick and pop players in the NBA. He knows the EXACT point where he needs to go to in order to set the pick for the guard or wing player that has the ball, and he knows EXACTLY the spot to go to for his shot, and he's smart enough to "roll" to the hoop for an easy layup if his defender tries to overplay him and beat him to his jumper spot. He's also a sneaky shotblocker at head height or lower, averging 0.7 in 17+ minutes.

Kurt is the best or second best rebounder of the bigs, the second best shooter behind Bonner, the best or second best pick setter, and the second best shotblocker behind Tim. Four million is not too much for a full NBA toolbox like that.

[ss1986v2]

It's the going rate for dumb asses like Cuban that will probably die broke and without a championship, and the Knicks, all time kings of the dufus front office 10 years running.

no, for just about everyone.

turiaf makes 4+ mil. kwame brown make 4 mil. diop makes 6+ mil. nazr makes 6+ mi. humpries, najera, veal and bonner make 3+ mil. mikki moore is coming off a 5+ mil deal. evans makes 5 mil. battie about 6 mil. joe smith is coming off 4+ mil. gadz is still making 6+ mil. foster is making 6 mil. zaza makes 4 mil.

sorry you disagree, but that doesnt make you right.

[exstatic]

It's the going rate for dumb asses like Cuban that will probably die broke and without a championship, and the Knicks, all time kings of the dufus front office 10 years running.

Uh, no Cuban's going rate is $10M for Ericka Dampier. Paying KT $4M is a fucking BARGAIN compared to that.

[Knoxxx]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=42008&split=9&team=Spurs

Kurt Thomas was the worst +/- player on our roster against Dallas. I know, I know, the matchup was not right. BS. Who are we trying to match up with, an old folks home rec league team? Who can Thomas match up with in the Western Conference playoffs? Convince me on that one, I'd love to see it.

Nothing wrong with someone appreciating KT as a player or a person. Just don't live an illusion that he is still effective in the league to the tune of $4 million at age 37.

[gameFACE]

If you want to keep a veteran big man Thomas is the one you want. If it's at all possible to move Bonner and Oberto it's a no brainer. Bonner can't be taught new tricks. Asking him to be what he isn't is ridiculous. Oberto should retire for health reasons.

[exstatic]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=42008&split=9&team=Spurs

Kurt Thomas was the worst +/- player on our roster against Dallas. I know, I know, the matchup was not right. BS. Who are we trying to match up with, an old folks home rec league team? Who can Thomas match up with in the Western Conference playoffs? Convince me on that one, I'd love to see it.

Nothing wrong with someone appreciating KT as a player or a person. Just don't live an illusion that he is still effective in the league to the tune of $4 million at age 37.

Shaq? Yao? Denver with all of their bigs? Portland? LA? We'd need some beef and muscle in any of those series.

Dallas would be one of the few BAD smallball-type playoff matchups for Kurt. Judging him for a shitty TEAM playoff series of 5 games seems a bit harsh.

[ss1986v2]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=42008&split=9&team=Spurs

Kurt Thomas was the worst +/- player on our roster against Dallas.

and vaughn was the best. your point?

[Knoxxx]

Vaughn played all of 2 mins. That's like saying he got a basket in 2 min, therefore he scores 48 points per 48 mins, laughable.

Shaq? Yao? Duncan is more than adequate to deal with them. Anyone can come in and give 4-5 quick fouls, even me. I see your point about trying to match up with LA and Denver bigs, but KT against Nene, K-Mart, Gasol, Odom or even bird man I would hate to see. He might do okay against Bynum, but only because he is playing awful right now.

[ChumpDumper]

Shaq? Yao? Duncan is more than adequate to deal with them.:lol

[Knoxxx]

If you want to keep a veteran big man Thomas is the one you want. If it's at all possible to move Bonner and Oberto it's a no brainer. Bonner can't be taught new tricks. Asking him to be what he isn't is ridiculous. Oberto should retire for health reasons.

Of course we want rid of those two also. Raise your hand anyone that wants to keep Oberto or Bonner. Silence except for the crickets...

[ChumpDumper]

Of course we want rid of those two also. Raise your hand anyone that wants to keep Oberto or Bonner. Silence except for the crickets...So you want to get rid of all three bigs and replace them with whom?

For how much?

[ss1986v2]

Vaughn played all of 2 mins. That's like saying he got a basket in 2 min, therefore he scores 48 points per 48 mins, laughable.

thats kinda my point. not the sharpest tool in the shed are we...

[Knoxxx]

thats kinda my point. not the sharpest tool in the shed are we...

We actually tried to play Thomas a few minutes but he got run off the court was mine. I noticed that Vaughn had the highest playoff +/-, but didn't think someone that was both sharp and a tool would bring that up. :lol
Then trying to come back and say I'm the dufus was even better. :depressed:nope:ihit:rolleyes:(:p::p::p::p::p::ihi t:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit

Obviously if we got rid of Oberto, Bonner, and KT we need a couple more bigs. Point is, most of us want rid of them all, but that likely won't happen. It would be nice to get someone like Rockweed Wallace and rid of 2/3 of them though.

[benefactor]

:lol
:lol

[Knoxxx]

So you want to get rid of all three bigs and replace them with whom?

For how much?

Rockweed for the MLE perhaps. Bird man at the LLE.

Sorry I missed your question at first, I got worked up over the fellow that actually thought I wanted a roster with TD and 12 smurfs.

I just saw on NBA.com, article dated may 6, Wallace wants $8 million. That is not too far off from the MLE, so maybe it can work.

Update: Wallace, who becomes an unrestricted free agent this offseason, plans to retire if he doesn't receive a contract worth $8 million per season, according to Slam Online. Analysis: It's hard to imagine a team paying a 34-year-old power forward with diminishing skills a contract worth $8 million per. If Sheed lowers his demands, he could catch on with a contender, but there's a good chance we have seen the last of the outspoken big man.

[Mel_13]

Rockweed for the MLE perhaps. Bird man at the LLE.



The MLE may be the best offer that Wallace gets, so he is possible from a dollar perspective. The LLE will not be nearly enough for Birdman.

I see you've taken a few lumps in this thread and I won't pile on except to say that, in boxing terms, you are well behind on points. What does occur to me is that if you wanted to start a thread about an aging Spurs big man who is paid beyond his production, why not use Oberto? He produced far less for almost the same money and you would have had an easier time sustaining your position.

[Knoxxx]

The MLE may be the best offer that Wallace gets, so he is possible from a dollar perspective. The LLE will not be nearly enough for Birdman.

I see you've taken a few lumps in this thread and I won't pile on except to say that, in boxing terms, you are well behind on points. What does occur to me is that if you wanted to start a thread about an aging Spurs big man who is paid beyond his production, why not use Oberto? He produced far less for almost the same money and you would have had an easier time sustaining your position.

I'm not so sure about Birdman, hard to say what he gets. The $3.8 million Thomas is getting probably would have done it. Instead I think (per Bruno analysis) that we need to wait to see what Finley does b4 we even know about having the full MLE. Bleah.

Exstatic gave a great analysis of KT's game, that I don't disagree with at all, except that he time warped back 5+ years and described his game back then. I hope KT proves me wrong, but I don't think we will get anything out of him on the court in 09/10. I am aware that KT is a savvy veteran that has/had some game.

6 foot 9 dudes that do layups when wide open under the rim, enough already!

[exstatic]

Exstatic gave a great analysis of KT's game, that I don't disagree with at all, except that he time warped back 5+ years and described his game back then. I hope KT proves me wrong, but I don't think we will get anything out of him on the court in 09/10. I am aware that KT is a savvy veteran that has/had some game.
Right, every stat I quoted was from last year. I watched somewhere between 70 and 75 regular season games from last year, so I think I have a pretty good handle on his abilities. His current abilities, that is. I never watched him 4-5 years ago, so I have no idea what he did back then.

6 foot 9 dudes that do layups when wide open under the rim, enough already!
Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter, of why you dislike KT: he doesn't dunk enough, and EVERYONE knows that dunks are worth four points and layups only two...oh wait, no they're not.

I'll come right out and say it: KT probably couldn't jump over two phone books. Yet somehow, he has a higher rebounding rate than Tim, Amare or Shaq. I'll tell you how he does it: he's smart, and smart doesn't age. Do you really think he's going to jump less high this year than last?

[Mel_13]

I'm not so sure about Birdman, hard to say what he gets. The $3.8 million Thomas is getting probably would have done it. Instead I think (per Bruno analysis) that we need to wait to see what Finley does b4 we even know about having the full MLE. Bleah.

Exstatic gave a great analysis of KT's game, that I don't disagree with at all, except that he time warped back 5+ years and described his game back then. I hope KT proves me wrong, but I don't think we will get anything out of him on the court in 09/10. I am aware that KT is a savvy veteran that has/had some game.

6 foot 9 dudes that do layups when wide open under the rim, enough already!

We may have to agree to disagree, but the analysis in post 32 of this thread was spot on and described KT's game this season. I am no expert, but I have been to nearly every home game for the last five years, so I am at least a very interested observer. KT missed training camp and started slow, but from January on, he was very good. Check out the numbers from his game log, especially his shooting percentage and rebounding numbers. His production for 20 minutes a night was fine.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=846

Also, as to the discussion of his merits as a post defender, I would also have to side with those who were critical of your opinion that Tim could handle Shaq and Yao by himself. KT was a much better defender against the biggest centers in the NBA. The best example is the March 8th game against the Suns. Check the play-by-play. Tim was in the game against a smallball Suns line-up at the beginning of the 4th. When Shaq checked in, Pop replaced Tim with KT. The move worked as the Spurs went on a run that didn't end until Shaq was pulled from the game. The Suns fed the post on several consecutive possessions and got nothing except 2 miss Fts from Shaq. KT's defense was excellent.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=290308024

[Knoxxx]

Now you are missing my point Mel. Shaq is like 38, are we really worried about him and Phoenix? I don't mind having Thomas, I just don't think 17.8 minutes per night + an awful playoff performance = $4 million well spent. Could he really have gotten that contract somewhere else?

There is no right answer here, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

[ss1986v2]

We actually tried to play Thomas a few minutes but he got run off the court was mine. I noticed that Vaughn had the highest playoff +/-, but didn't think someone that was both sharp and a tool would bring that up. :lol
Then trying to come back and say I'm the dufus was even better. :depressed:nope:ihit:rolleyes:(:p::p::p::p::p::ihi t:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit:ihit

...

im tempted to just leave this to you mel, but i guess im a gluten for punishment. you missed the point again it seems. mentioning anyones +/- rating over a 5 game series is boardering on mental deficiency. +/- is barely usuable when you have a substantial sample size. and even then its still horribly flawed (notice bonner led us in +/- during the regular season).

we disagree on KT, and thats fine (to each their own), but to cite +/- over such a small sample size as a definitive reason is almost akin to citing his jersey number as the problem.

[ElNono]

Let's replace KT with Pops, still get kicked out of the playoffs in the first round because he has no clue what our defensive rotations are, and call it progress. At least we'll get to see a dunk or two. :rolleyes

[Mel_13]

Now you are missing my point Mel. Shaq is like 38, are we really worried about him and Phoenix? I don't mind having Thomas, I just don't think 17.8 minutes per night + an awful playoff performance = $4 million well spent. Could he really have gotten that contract somewhere else?

There is no right answer here, you are entitled to your opinion of course.


Your point as stated in your OP


First of let me say that I think KT is a class act, and I loved him on our roster. 10 years ago. Now he is the poster child for what is wrong with the Spurs. I'm not sure the trade that brought him here was a bad idea, but resigning him for two years at $4 million per I have to question.


Can't agree with that. Labeling KT as the poster child for what ails the Spurs is unfair and misplaced. The contract that KT signed was probably slightly below market value and, yes, there were other clubs interested. His performance this year was at least as much as the Spurs expected and if he were a FA he would attract interest from many contenders in the NBA.

Using hindsight is always convenient, but usually unfair. You could make the argument that the Spurs would be better off right now if they had 4M to spend as they choose rather than having KT. But decisions are made in the context of the information available at that time. In the summer of 2008, coming off their 2008 playoff run and looking ahead to integrating Ian into the big rotation, the Spurs had decisions to make. KT for 2 yrs, 8M fit perfectly with their needs at the time and with their overall plan to have maximum payroll flexibility leading up to the summer of 2010.

Finally, the nice people who run this forum basically allow anyone with an internet connection and an e-mail address to join and begin posting. Unlike many other boards, they impose no restrictions on new members and even allow them to start threads immediately upon joining. That doesn't make it a good idea. The search function works quite well and would have pointed you here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3347935#post3347935

You could have expressed your opinions about KT along with those of other members.

This is just my 2 cents, but most threads started by new members seem to be trolls or adolescent attention-seekers. Based on your posts, I don't think you fall into either category, but if you start a thread with a strongly worded opinion like this one you must expect to hear from the other side. And I think you earn respect when you yield to well-stated opposing opinions. Most of the initial responses to your OP were quite tame and well-supported and you have stuck with your original take. That is, of course, your right. Just have a thick skin and don't take opposing points of view as attacks on you.

OK, off my soapbox. Look forward to reading your views on the Spurs.

[Knoxxx]

Helpful link as usual and appreciate the comments Mel. Yeah, I am not overly concerned with what someone on a BBS thinks of me.

With regard to last summer, I did not like the contract then either. We'll see what happens this summer and next season, because I don't like it in the context of those either.

And has anyone ever assembled quite such a combination of 30+ and unathletic dudes in recent memory as the current Spurs?

As far as taking a shot at KT, it's done in good humor, I like the guy. Just not on the floor for us for more than brief of stretches.

[Mel_13]

Helpful link as usual and appreciate the comments Mel. Yeah, I am not overly concerned with what someone on a BBS thinks of me.

With regard to last summer, I did not like the contract then either. We'll see what happens this summer and next season, because I don't like it in the context of those either.

And has anyone ever assembled quite such a combination of 30+ and unathletic dudes in recent memory as the current Spurs?

As far as taking a shot at KT, it's done in good humor, I like the guy. Just not on the floor for us for more than brief of stretches.

The 2007 NBA champions were not much younger or more athletic, but did have a healthy Manu Ginobili. The Spurs have been squeezing the last drops out of this formula for several years and have now clearly reached the point where it can no longer work.

Last summer they replaced Barry, Horry, and Stoudamire with Mason, Tolliver, and Hill. This summer I expect that Vaughn, Oberto, and Udoka will be replaced with much younger players as well. With good luck Finley retires and can also be replaced. These are moves that can be made totally within existing resources with no trade partner or cap clearing needed. It is the minimum I expect this summer.

[sananspursfan21]

This is like arguing who is the tallest midget....

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Sports/images/midget-basketball.jpg

or who is the smartest kid with Downs Syndrome



For the Record my vote goes to Corky from Life Goes on

http://www.amarillo.com/images/100804/23104_512.jpg


dudes a publish novelist


http://www.mygtv.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/corky.jpg


wow, what a waste of space

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Rockweed for the MLE perhaps. Bird man at the LLE.

Sorry I missed your question at first, I got worked up over the fellow that actually thought I wanted a roster with TD and 12 smurfs.

I just saw on NBA.com, article dated may 6, Wallace wants $8 million. That is not too far off from the MLE, so maybe it can work.

Update: Wallace, who becomes an unrestricted free agent this offseason, plans to retire if he doesn't receive a contract worth $8 million per season, according to Slam Online. Analysis: It's hard to imagine a team paying a 34-year-old power forward with diminishing skills a contract worth $8 million per. If Sheed lowers his demands, he could catch on with a contender, but there's a good chance we have seen the last of the outspoken big man.

So who's gonna cover the 10 or so million $ the Spurs lose if your plan is applied?

[rascal]

KT is the best big besides duncan on the roster. He played well when given the opportunity hitting the 15ft jumpshot, and getting offensive rebounds, which nobody else could do.

Thats the big problem with the spurs. If Thomas is the 2nd best big on the team there are serious upgrades needed in the frontcourt.

[rascal]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=42008&split=9&team=Spurs

Kurt Thomas was the worst +/- player on our roster against Dallas. I know, I know, the matchup was not right. BS. Who are we trying to match up with, an old folks home rec league team? Who can Thomas match up with in the Western Conference playoffs? Convince me on that one, I'd love to see it.

Nothing wrong with someone appreciating KT as a player or a person. Just don't live an illusion that he is still effective in the league to the tune of $4 million at age 37.


Agree. Thomas is just about finished. He is nothing more than a low end bench player now at his age and with the tight ship spurs his salary is not a bargain.

The spurs need players who can play against any opponent not old timers who can't match up with quicker, younger more athletic teams.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

KT could/should be for the Spurs what Kevin Willis was....for the Spurs. An enforcer, a strong veteran bench presence who can come in in key situations and man the middle. He'd be a perfect 3rd option for the Spurs at the 5.

Unfortunately the Spurs had no one at the center spot with any cajones who could play in front of him.

[Spursfan092120]

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/playerProfiles/profileDisplay.jsp?id=323

My favorite thing about this site was the quote on top..
"They don't let many black people in the Governor's Mansion in Alabama...unless they're cleaning." Charles Barkley

:lmao:lmao

[Capt Bringdown]

As for what KT "brings" and what he "does" for us, what is that exactly? Cue the usual excuses about "contributions not showing up on a stat sheet" and "bad matchups."

Kurt's an example of the Spurs decline, I agree with the OP. Sure, Kurt's a solid player and knows the system, but he doesn't make basketball plays that help us win playoff games. In a Spurs uniform, what has he done for us in the playoffs? He wasn't even able to stay on the court.

Are we so frightened of change and impotent that we can't do better than Kurt Thomas? If that's the best we can do, we're finished.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

As for what KT "brings" and what he "does" for us, what is that exactly? Cue the usual excuses about "contributions not showing up on a stat sheet" and "bad matchups."

Kurt's an example of the Spurs decline, I agree with the OP. Sure, Kurt's a solid player and knows the system, but he doesn't make basketball plays that help us win playoff games. In a Spurs uniform, what has he done for us in the playoffs? He wasn't even able to stay on the court.

Are we so frightened of change and impotent that we can't do better than Kurt Thomas? If that's the best we can do, we're finished.

How about :

1. The second best rebounder on the team ( even the best if we go strictly by stats ), so yes his contributions are reflected on the stat sheet

2. The best low post 1 on 1 defender on the team

3. The 2nd best shot blocker on the team

4. The best at setting screens on offense

5. One of the 2, or 3 at most, with a reliable midrange J

Which one of these would you argue against? Is that not enough for a back-up big man?

[Capt Bringdown]

Second best only because the other Spurs bigs are the likes of Oberto and Bonner. Oberto couldn't even get on the court, so you're really saying he's better than Bonner. Congratulations.

I'd expect that a back up big man wouldn't flunk the playoffs and actually be able stay on the court and contribute. Is that not a reasonable expectation? Or did we get him so that he could be a regular season wonder (who ain't really so wonderful)?

Haven't we given up on other players because they sucked in the playoffs? Why does KT get a free pass, and why are we so afraid of moving on?

"We can't find anyone better" is not only a lame excuse but a self-fufilling prophecy.

[NFGIII]

As stated in several ways below KT brings more than some think to the table. WHO are going to get to replace him and what PRICE?

Dallas was the worst matchup the Spurs could have gotten in the POs this year. ABSOLUTELY the worst.

So for those that want to bash him come up with viable options that can work realistically.

I want to keep KT but the Spurs need a better starting 5 and more athletic players.


He's quite good. If you let him go, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone as good. The problem is the Spurs just need other players on the roster who are more athletic. I see Bonner and Oberto as more expendable than Thomas.


Oh you can shop him, just make sure you get someone else that can do most of the things he does.


God DAMN, we got some stupid fuckers posting here. Nobody is going to put up big numbers opposite Tim, because Pop is ALWAYS going to rotate guys for different skills like 3 point shooting and rebounding and defense. In ten games that he started, Thomas grabbed 8.5 rebounds in 26 minutes played. That's a better rebounding rate than Tim, Amare, or Shaq. Idiot.


He's one of the best pick and pop players in the NBA. He knows the EXACT point where he needs to go to in order to set the pick for the guard or wing player that has the ball, and he knows EXACTLY the spot to go to for his shot, and he's smart enough to "roll" to the hoop for an easy layup if his defender tries to overplay him and beat him to his jumper spot. He's also a sneaky shotblocker at head height or lower, averging 0.7 in 17+ minutes.

Kurt is the best or second best rebounder of the bigs, the second best shooter behind Bonner, the best or second best pick setter, and the second best shotblocker behind Tim. Four million is not too much for a full NBA toolbox like that.


So you want to get rid of all three bigs and replace them with whom?

For how much?

[Capt Bringdown]

Actually, it's enough to express an opinion that he sucks, for me at least. Sitting around pounding the pud over "viable" options sounds like the ultimate exercise in sportsfan mental masturbation.

Fellow geeks may be impressed by the effort, but at the end of the day it's a waste of time and no more valid than simply stating your opinion about a given players value to the team.

It rather sounds like childish defensiveness really. "I didn't like the latest Starwars movie."
No, you can't say that unless you come up with a viable and finacially feasible alternative."

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Second best only because the other Spurs bigs are the likes of Oberto and Bonner. Oberto couldn't even get on the court, so you're really saying he's better than Bonner. Congratulations.

"We can't find anyone better" is not only a lame excuse but a self-fufilling prophecy.

And therein lies the problem - we need a good big man to put next to Duncan. Kurt is wonderful as 3rd or 4th big, off the bench. Nobody is saying there are no better players, but truth is we'd be hard pressed to afford to get someone better with the resources we have.

If we get rid of him, Oberto and Booner, like you suggest, presumably in a trade I suppose,then what's your idea of who we should replace them with and how? I'd be very interested to get a constructive answer, insead of the usual just-get-rid-of-<insert name here>.

[Extra Stout]

Thomas at this point would be good as a guy getting spot minutes off the bench.

The Spurs wouldn't need both Kurt Thomas and Matt Bonner on a team with an NBA-caliber frontcourt. Each would be OK as a fifth big -- it would be up to the personnel director to decide whether the fifth big needs to rebound or shoot 3's.

I have no idea how the Spurs go out and acquire the three quality big men they need in one offseason. It probably isn't going to happen. They'll be fortunate to find one decent player, and then maybe the next offseason they can bring in Tiago Splitter and somebody else. That's really the best-case scenario.

Tim will be on his own again next year.

[rascal]

And therein lies the problem - we need a good big man to put next to Duncan. Kurt is wonderful as 3rd or 4th big, off the bench. Nobody is saying there are no better players, but truth is we'd be hard pressed to afford to get someone better with the resources we have.

If we get rid of him, Oberto and Booner, like you suggest, presumably in a trade I suppose,then what's your idea of who we should replace them with and how? I'd be very interested to get a constructive answer, insead of the usual just-get-rid-of-<insert name here>.


Its the front offices job to figure out how to get the players not the posters in here and like last offseason if the front office doesn't get the front court players they failed in putting together a team good enough to win.

To say there isn't any other alternatives to acquire a big is giving the front office a free pass for failure.

[rascal]

And therein lies the problem - we need a good big man to put next to Duncan. Kurt is wonderful as 3rd or 4th big, off the bench. Nobody is saying there are no better players, but truth is we'd be hard pressed to afford to get someone better with the resources we have.

If we get rid of him, Oberto and Booner, like you suggest, presumably in a trade I suppose,then what's your idea of who we should replace them with and how? I'd be very interested to get a constructive answer, insead of the usual just-get-rid-of-<insert name here>.


Why should the spurs be hard pressed to get someone better with the resources they have? Players can be traded to open up salary to get upgraded on the front line.

[rascal]

Second best only because the other Spurs bigs are the likes of Oberto and Bonner. Oberto couldn't even get on the court, so you're really saying he's better than Bonner. Congratulations.

I'd expect that a back up big man wouldn't flunk the playoffs and actually be able stay on the court and contribute. Is that not a reasonable expectation? Or did we get him so that he could be a regular season wonder (who ain't really so wonderful)?

Haven't we given up on other players because they sucked in the playoffs? Why does KT get a free pass, and why are we so afraid of moving on?

"We can't find anyone better" is not only a lame excuse but a self-fufilling prophecy.

Good post.

How could the front office really believe they could win with the front line they had.

[Mel_13]

Why should the spurs be hard pressed to get someone better with the resources they have? Players can be traded to open up salary to get upgraded on the front line.

Please explain these magical trades that open up salary. One realistic proposal for this summer or an actual example from the past would be helpful.

[Extra Stout]

If we get rid of him, Oberto and Booner, like you suggest, presumably in a trade I suppose,then what's your idea of who we should replace them with and how? I'd be very interested to get a constructive answer, insead of the usual just-get-rid-of-<insert name here>.
Every contract on the team other than Duncan's and Parker's, and I guess Hill's, is expiring. Expiring contracts are highly desirable to teams looking to clear cap space, and to teams just looking to cut payroll. Next summer is expected to be a free-agent bumper crop, and the economy sucks, so expiring contracts are precious.

The Spurs should have plenty of ammunition to revamp the roster. Scratch that, the Spurs could hardly hope for a better opportunity to revamp the roster.

I have my doubts that they'll get anything done, however.

[rascal]

Please explain these magical trades that open up salary. One realistic proposal for this summer or an actual example from the past would be helpful.

Its the front office's job to make things happen.

The spurs should have made a strong play to get R Wallace when he was traded twice in one year but were too afraid at the time to get a disgruntled player. detroit took the chance and he helped them to a title. That is an example of a missed opportunity in the past. There will be other opportunities in the future and its the front offices job to get it done.

[Mel_13]

Its the front office's job to make things happen.

The spurs should have made a strong play to get R Wallace when he was traded twice in one year but were too afraid at the time to get a disgruntled player. detroit took the chance and he helped them to a title. That is an example of a missed opportunity in the past. There will be other opportunities in the future and its the front offices job to get it done.

Are you this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3uxqwTxk0

[Extra Stout]

Please explain these magical trades that open up salary. One realistic proposal for this summer or an actual example from the past would be helpful.
The Spurs have something like $30 million worth of expiring contracts next year.

[Mel_13]

The Spurs have something like $30 million worth of expiring contracts next year.

I understand that. Trading those contracts will bring back similar-sized contracts in return.

Mt question was about this post:


Why should the spurs be hard pressed to get someone better with the resources they have? Players can be traded to open up salary to get upgraded on the front line.


Players may indeed be traded in moves to upgrade the team. I am not aware of the magical trades that open up salary to be used to acquire better players.

[DPG21920]

They might not open up salary for the same year, but a year in which a team plans to make improvements (2010....)

[Mel_13]

They might not open up salary for the same year, but a year in which a team plans to make improvements (2010....)

the poster I was responding to was referring to immediate improvements

[Extra Stout]

Players may indeed be traded in moves to upgrade the team. I am not aware of the magical trades that open up salary to be used to acquire better players.
The trade exception.

[Mel_13]

The trade exception.

Quite true. Now to identify a team with TE large enough to absorb one of our "garbage" players without demanding something of value (future draft picks ) in return. Just as we are hoping that the FO takes advantage of some other team's need to shed salary and makes a trade where the Spurs get a talent upgrade, any transaction the Spurs make to shed salary will also come at a price.

[Extra Stout]

Quite true. Now to identify a team with TE large enough to absorb one of our "garbage" players without demanding something of value (future draft picks ) in return. Just as we are hoping that the FO takes advantage of some other team's need to shed salary and makes a trade where the Spurs get a talent upgrade, any transaction the Spurs make to shed salary will also come at a price.
The idea is that the Spurs could manage their trades so that they get a trade exception. Since we're talking about dealing a bunch of expiring contracts anyway, it's probably six of one and a half-dozen of the other regarding what difference a trade exception makes, but nevertheless, what rascal said did make sense.

[poop]

we should offload Bonner and oberto before Thomas. thomas is more effective than those other 2

[ElNono]

We should just tear the entire team down, and spend the money we don't have signing All-Star/All-NBA talent. I don't care how the FO does it. It's their job to make it happen.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The idea is that the Spurs could manage their trades so that they get a trade exception. Since we're talking about dealing a bunch of expiring contracts anyway, it's probably six of one and a half-dozen of the other regarding what difference a trade exception makes, but nevertheless, what rascal said did make sense.

Ironically Kurt Thomas was a main piece of one of the last trades in which a team looking for a TE dealt an expiring contract. Phoenix traded Kurt Thomas's expiring contract together with 2 first round picks to Seattle ( now OKC ) for nothing. Now, imagine if the Spurs did something similar ( the Scola trade ), you guys would be the first in line to throw stones at the FO again. I guess they just can't win either way eh?

[Extra Stout]

We should just tear the entire team down, and spend the money we don't have signing All-Star/All-NBA talent. I don't care how the FO does it. It's their job to make it happen.
The Spurs have $30 million in expiring contracts. They should be able to upgrade the team, but instead everyone will go on making excuses for R.C. Buford's incompetence.

[Mel_13]

The idea is that the Spurs could manage their trades so that they get a trade exception. Since we're talking about dealing a bunch of expiring contracts anyway, it's probably six of one and a half-dozen of the other regarding what difference a trade exception makes, but nevertheless, what rascal said did make sense.

I don't want to be argumentative and I definitely don't want to appear dense, but your post confuses me.

As far as I know, there are only two ways the Spurs can get a TE. They can trade a player to a team that already holds a TE that is sufficiently large or they can trade a player to a team that is far enough below the cap to absorb the contract.

In either case there must be a reason for the other team to make the trade. They can want the player enough to take him without asking anything in return(think Camby to the Clips) or they will want a fee for their services (think KT plus 2 first rounders from PHX to Seattle). So do you see any team that CAN take one of the players that you would like to see replaced and WOULD take that player without demanding something of value in return?

[Knoxxx]

I believe the salaries have to be similar, within a specific variance. So if we trade Boner and Oberto for one guy, their combined $6.7 million salary needs to approximately match the contract we take on. I don't know a ton of guys out there making $7 million that is a long-term deal that the other team wants rid off and would be attractive to us. Sure that is possible, remember Malik Rose. However, there are numerous motivations for teams and layers of complexity. The observation is obviously correct that the FO needs to explore them all. Seems to me the better chance right now is try for a MLE and/or LLE player and make minor roster tweaks otherwise.

I am also not sure on the trade rules if you can trade 3 players for 1. Say for example Bowen + Bonner + Oberto for someone making $11 million over 3 years. But do we really want a contract like thay anyway? I suspect by throwing in a low salary guy it could be done.

More and more it seems like 2010 plan, with as much money in hand as possible, is the way to go. Then we can figure out the Manu situation. We could also replace the guys above and Bowen with younger players making smaller salaries of $1-$2 million. Examples could be Splitter, Jaktovas, Sandizke, or even the Bourasis guy, and sorry I know my spelling is iffy there. We don't necessarily have to go international either, with Gist and Hairston, or perhaps someone from summer league that emerges or a draft pick from 2009-2010.

[SpursFanInAustin]

The Spurs have $30 million in expiring contracts. They should be able to upgrade the team, but instead everyone will go on making excuses for R.C. Buford's incompetence.

Right, so the Spurs should go to the Orlando Magic and demand for Dwight Howard in exchange or go to Lakers and demand Kobe Bryant ask Denver for Carmelo Anthony for expiring contracts such as Finley, Bonner, Thomas, and Mason.....after all the other team would get that caproom to make a play for the LeBron/Wade sweepstakes in 2010!!

[Spur|n|Austin]

Right, so the Spurs should go to the Orlando Magic and demand for Dwight Howard in exchange or go to Lakers and demand Kobe Bryant ask Denver for Carmelo Anthony for expiring contracts such as Finley, Bonner, Thomas, and Mason.....after all the other team would get that caproom to make a play for the LeBron/Wade sweepstakes in 2010!!

:tu

[FlAVaK]

Bucks to keep KT:

Ex-Spur Thomas is part of plan (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/53045352.html)

"But what about Kurt Thomas, the veteran forward-center and the third San Antonio player involved in the trade?
The 6-foot-9, 240-pound Thomas is part of the Bucks' plans for the coming season, an experienced pro who can help the young talent the team has acquired.
General manager John Hammond sees Thomas as a player who can provide support at both the power forward and center positions, helping to back up center Andrew Bogut and the Bucks' young trio of power forwards - Hakim Warrick, Amir Johnson and Ersan Ilyasova.
"The question is how many minutes can he play," Hammond said. "You don't want to wear him out."
Thomas will turn 37 on Oct. 4 and will be starting his 15th NBA season, a remarkable record of endurance. He was a first-round pick of the Miami Heat in the 1995 draft, the 10th overall selection.
"He's a pro's pro," Hammond said. "The fact is he's a guy you can have on the floor to finish games. He can step up to make the big shot, and he knows how to defend on the interior. His rebounding numbers are excellent.
"And he's excited about being here."
Thomas also has a cap-friendly contract, with one year and $3.8 million remaining on a deal he signed with the Spurs in July 2008."

[spursfaninla]

The Spurs have $30 million in expiring contracts. They should be able to upgrade the team, but instead everyone will go on making excuses for R.C. Buford's incompetence.


R.C. owned thee.