Need advice, should I fight it?

[phyzik]

Before I start, I think its bullshit. I am even going to provide you with video footage courtesy of www.violationinfo.com . Regardless of what happens, It will not show up on my record and its only $75.00 but Im thinking about fighting it. Im just curious what you guys think.


OK, so everyone that lives in San Antonio KNOWS that in Balcones Heights (just as evil, if not worse, as Leon Valley) the cops are fucking cock sucking assholes (fuck you if you work for them :flipoff ). Anyway, I didnt get pulled over by a cop. Balcones has those bullshit traffic cameras.

let me set the scenario.

So I recieved a letter in the mail today with a picture of my car making a right turn off of Fredricksburg and Hillcrest on 4/16/2009. The time is stamped as 12:38am. Im charged with basically what ammounts to running a red light.

As you will see from the video, I was making a right turn while cross traffic was moving. I was coming up to the corner of Fredricksburg and Hillcrest while Hillcrest had the gree light. Mind you there is a "no turn-around" sign for that traffic so I was safe. Nevermind the fact that where I was preparing to turn right on Hillcrest there is no sign that says "no turn on red".

The video clearly shows me slow down, though I do not make a complete stop, to make sure there is no oncoming traffic into the lane I turn into. It also clearly shows that the Hillcrest traffic is turning left (as Im turning right at the intersection) making it impossible for me to cause any kind of accident.

Anyway, I'll let you be the judge of me. I'm being serious here and would like an honest answer from those of you that post. Should I pay the fine and be done with it or should I request a hearing?

Fucking cops.

[BruceBowenFan]

Same thing happened to my friend although he just paid it.

[E20]

i would fight it. i hate it when i get wrongly get accused of something and i will fight it even though i may lose just to get my point across. even if i have to pay, as long as i end up making the other side look stupid is cool enough.

[Leetonidas]

Convenience fee will be added

:lmao

Fight that shit bro. What better proof do you need? You clearly did not break the law here.

[phyzik]

i would fight it. i hate it when i get wrongly get accused of something and i will fight it even though i may lose just to get my point across. even if i have to pay, as long as i end up making the other side look stupid is cool enough.

Those are my thoughts as well E20. I Really want those fucking camera's taken down just because people ignorantly pay the fine without trying to fight it. They are exploiting people with that shit. Most people dont realize if they fight it, video is usually not submissable in court unless the judge deems otherwise. Video is a deterent and thats it, And I CLEARLY (at least in my mind) didnt do ANYTHING wrong.

I worked in an industry for 3 years KNOWING people stole shit (I saw them on camera) but yet the law would deny video because it wasnt witnessed by a person.

Im laying it all on the line here showing people what I supposedly "did wrong" and I honestly think I did nothing wrong in this instance.

$75.00 isnt going to hurt me in the LEAST in the grand scheme of things but this bullshit pisses me off and I REALLY want to prove a point to those Balcones motherfuckers.

[phyzik]

BTW, thats my G8 GT :tu




They could have certainly caught me doing some worse shit than that in that fucking car :lol

[jcrod]

If you had made a complete stop you would have an argument. But the fact that you just slowed down before you turned is bad, you will lose. Since the light was red, as with a stop sign, you need to make a complete stop.


Pay dude.

[phyzik]

If you had made a complete stop you would have an argument. But the fact that you just slowed down before you turned is bad, you will lose. Since the light was red, as with a stop sign, you need to make a complete stop.


Pay dude.

Honestly, Im thinking of going this route just to avoid the hassle, except for the fact that in most courts video is not submissible in court unless the judge deems otherwise. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT!

Thats where they get nieve people with these video's. Its scare tactics. Its a deterent. I have had irrefutable evidence on video of someone stealing something and the cops didnt do shit because they know video is not submissible unless the judge allows it. $75.00 isn't shit to me, its the principal of the thing, I was endangering NO ONE.

[jcrod]

Honestly, Im thinking of going this route just to avoid the hassle, except for the fact that in most courts video is not submissible in court unless the judge deems otherwise. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT!

Thats where they get nieve people with these video's. Its scare tactics. Its a deterent. I have had irrefutable evidence on video of someone stealing something and the cops didnt do shit because they know video is not
submissible unless the judge allows it. $75.00 isn't shit to me, its the principal of the thing, I was endangering NO ONE.

I'm not familiar with what is submissible or not, if you know for a fact then fight it. But if the judge will allow it, then you will lose.

[phyzik]

I'm not familiar with what is submissible or not, if you know for a fact then fight it. But if the judge will allow it, then you will lose.

This is what comes in to question alot, especially in my case.

The camera is designed to photograph any movement that happens with a vehicle at a red light. Thats when its active. It doesnt care if your making a right turn or moving through a light, or pulling into the Jims at that same intersection that I was filmed at. thats why its not admissible.


A. PARTS OF PREDICATE CAN BE INFERRED
Roy v. State, 608 S.W.2d 645 (Tex.Crim.App. [panel op.] 1980).

Sims v. State, 735 S.W.2d 913 (Tex.App.—Dallas 1987, pet. ref’d).

That machine was operating properly can be inferred from evidence and testimony supporting predicate can come from non-operator.

there is no testemony because only the camera was there. Its a machine. It doesnt understand whats actually happening at the time. all it does is take a picture. It cant testify. It cant be proved that it was or was NOT working at the time. Even if there is a chance I would lose, they arent going to waste the time on it for so little a fine. It would cost them even more money to prove it than they would gain from my measly $75.00

Look, Cameras are good on intersections, it helps capture what happens in an accident or actually catch someone running a red light, But when they are used to trap people for making a completely safe turn, then it becomes a problem.

Have you even been in Balcones heights or Leon Valley? Do you know that the rumor of police "quota's" comes from those precincts? They pull people over for money. Not because they are criminals or are breaking the law. They literally pull you over for doing 37 in a 35 and treat you like an outright criminal for it. Handcuffs and all.

I DO appreciate your input though, I actually may just pay it just to be done with it and not drag it on, but I'm really pissed off right now and I want to do something to fight the man, if you know what I mean.

[Ginofan]

It's a shitty ticket but you DID fail to stop at a red light before turning. You did SOMETHING wrong even it is a minor infraction...you should just pay it and be done with it.

[Bukefal]

I think you should fight it. You did nothing wrong here. Why pay something like this then? Good luck, whatever you decide to do! :)

[travis2]

Whether you fight it or not is your decision.

I'm concerned about all those who say you did nothing wrong. They need to brush up on traffic laws.

Right turn on red (where allowed) is legal ONLY after a FULL STOP. If you didn't stop, then you DID do something wrong.

[exstatic]

If you had made a complete stop you would have an argument. But the fact that you just slowed down before you turned is bad, you will lose. Since the light was red, as with a stop sign, you need to make a complete stop.


Pay dude.

That. Anything else is a massive rationalization.

[exstatic]

Whether you fight it or not is your decision.

I'm concerned about all those who say you did nothing wrong. They need to brush up on traffic laws.

Right turn on red (where allowed) is legal ONLY after a FULL STOP. If you didn't stop, then you DID do something wrong.

Also, that.

[SpursStalker]

Whether you fight it or not is your decision.

I'm concerned about all those who say you did nothing wrong. They need to brush up on traffic laws.

Right turn on red (where allowed) is legal ONLY after a FULL STOP. If you didn't stop, then you DID do something wrong.

My thoughts exactly!

What do you think you'd be fighting anyway? The fact that you ran a red light?

[florige]

Well if you do decide to pay the fine be sure to check your state laws because here in Maryland those red light cameras now carry points. Two years ago they didn't. I believe a red light violation is 2 points.

[bus driver]

just tell the judge that you wanted to keep texas moving
http://www.keeptexasmoving.com/ so you thought you were doing your texas duty as a texan

[Fideo Castro]

Busted!

[Dex]

If you had made a complete stop you would have an argument. But the fact that you just slowed down before you turned is bad, you will lose. Since the light was red, as with a stop sign, you need to make a complete stop.


Pay dude.

+1

Principle or not, you're fighting a losing battle. Unless you happen to get the good judge on the good day, then they have substantial evidence to cite you for not stopping completely if they really wanted to. It sucks, but it's the law, and people have gotten tickets for less.

Not to mention the hours that would be spent in the courtroom, since you typically would have to show up at your court date, then wait for them to clear out all of the non-guiltys / no contends, THEN plead your case, then wait for a decision. And if you lose, then you are stuck footing the entire bill without any other options.

It sucks, but paying the ticket may be the lesser of the two evils here.

[tlongII]

You're hosed. Pay it.

[King]

Agree with the latter half of the replies. It's a ridiculous law to enforce, but it IS a law, and they do have proof that you technically broke it. All you have is the 'but everyone else does it' defense. Just pay it. Avoid the hassle - because you'll just be out time AND money if you fight it, as opposed to just money.

[Mixability]

Just pay it, you didn't even pause, much less stop.


And, you just let quite a few people have your license plate number (including whatever local cops do come across this site), which means you just gave them access to your personal information.

[ashbeeigh]

It's not even close to the line in Clueless where Cher says 'I totally paused!"

I'm sorry, but I didn't even see a clear yield in the video. I think you'll spend more time fighting it then you will just paying the ticket. But, it is up to you.

[Dex]

That damn site isn't even Mac friendly. :madrun

[DoubtingThomas]

Didn't see a stop before turning. Pay up.

[Pistons < Spurs]

I have no idea if the tape is admissible in court or not. And I suppose if you can fight it and avoid the penalty, more power to you.

But any attempt to justify your obvious failure to adhere to the law is silly. You didn't even remotely come close to stopping. No hesitation at all. You merely slowed down enough to make your turn. We've all done it, but this time you got caught. Accept it, and pay up.

[phyzik]

yeah, I'm gonna pay it. I was just pissed about it. Anyway, taking down the link now.

[Sportcamper]

Read Travis’s post…RED MEANS STOP…The laser clocked you at 19 mph…You need to make a safe & complete stop & proceed only if you are clear to do so…

The websites evidence is irrefutable…Props to the folks who put that all together…


http://www.plasticandplush.com/plasticandplush/images/2008/04/25/police_officer_cartman.jpg

[Blake]

Whether you fight it or not is your decision.

I'm concerned about all those who say you did nothing wrong. They need to brush up on traffic laws.

Right turn on red (where allowed) is legal ONLY after a FULL STOP. If you didn't stop, then you DID do something wrong.

+1

If you fight the charge of running a red light, you will lose.

What you might be able to do is ask for a jury trial and ask to face your accuser, telling the jury that a camera is not what was intended when it was written in the constitution.

I'm not able to view the video here, but is your face visible? Does someone else ever drive your car? You could go that route if you feel like lying....

The Texas House just voted 107-36 last week in favor of 'sunsetting' the red light camera programs in Texas. It still has to pass the Senate, but it seems a matter of time before it is scrapped altogether.....too bad for you.

You may want to double check, but I don't think Texas carries points at this time for a red light camera violation, so my advice would be just to pay the $75 ticket and be done with it.

[FromWayDowntown]

Whether video would be admissible in a state district court, in a criminal proceeding, strikes me as pretty much immaterial in this instance, given that you're dealing with a muncipal court (at most) in a civil proceeding. The evidentiary safeguards that exist in criminal trials are frequently relaxed in civil trials -- the erroneous admission or exclusion of evidence in civil cases will almost never be a basis to reverse a judgment. More importantly, you're looking to contest the admissibility of that tape in a court where such evidence is (I'd guess) frequently used by the prosecutors where infractions are challenged. Even your own statements about it suggest that the video is inadmissible except where a judge decides to let it in -- and my guess would be that a municipal judge in Balcones Heights would likely let that video in. If you want to contest it, hire a good lawyer and be prepared to go through several stages of litigation to vindicate your position. You might be able to get by without spending more than about $10,000 or so.

Or, as several others have noted, acknowledge that you broke the law (Section 544.007(d)(1) of the Texas Transportation Code, to be specific) -- however silly you might think that law is -- pay the $75.00 fine or take a deferred adjudication with a defensive driving course if pleading guilty is too much to stomach.

[Blake]

Thank the stars! Those dumb ass cameras piss me off. :bang

why? what are you doing that you don't want to get caught doing?

[phyzik]

Actually. I just learned this is Civil citation and not criminal. If I dont pay it, at worst I will get a hit on my credit report. I cant get arrested for it and I wont take a hit on my insurance if I refuse to pay.

http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/009097.html


Balcones Heights City Council member and blogger Steve Walker, the main critic there of the cameras, brought up the collections issue in an op-ed piece he wrote:


One of my biggest roadblocks for voting to approve the proposal has always been the fact that the ticket issued is a civil violation and not a criminal offense. In other words since Balcones Heights police officers or any other peace officer don't write the citation, there is no mechanism in place to insure that the red-light runner pay the fine for the infraction.

When a certified peace officer issues a traffic violation, failure to pay may result in arrest, suspension of driver's license and may affect the driver's ability to retain insurance at a reasonable cost. None of that applies to the civil citation.

I would point out that there is no real due process to appeal the violation to a judge since it goes before a hearing officer to rule on guilt or innocence.

Since they base the citation on video tape of the automobile's license plate and not the driver of the vehicle, there is no reliable way to determine accurately who was driving the automobile.

The owner of the vehicle is the one ticketed. He or she receives a summons from ATS, headquartered in Arizona. ATS is also the vendor who installed the video equipment.

According to the five-year contract between the City and the vendor, ATS is responsible to process the citations, collect the traffic fines, and once the fine is paid, send the City a portion of the fine for the infraction. ATS retain $40 for each ticket collected since they own the video cameras.

And then this from 2007

http://www.ksat.com/news/11604240/detail.html


SAN ANTONIO -- Red-light cameras in Balcones Heights have issued 400 citations since the cameras debuted March 26, police officials said.

Balcones Heights Police Chief Bill Stannard told City Council members Monday night that the cameras are catching between 10 to 15 violators a day.

"Everything is going good," Stannard said. "The cameras are working excellent, the way we thought and hoped they would."

But as of Monday, none of the violators had paid the $148 fine, Stannard said.

Councilman Steve Walker, who opposed the installation of the cameras, said he wasn't surprised that no one has paid up.

"It's all civil," Walker said. "It's just a matter of they send you a ticket and say, 'Please pay this ticket.' In criminal, a police officer can arrest you. With this, you cannot be arrested, your insurance cannot be affected; nothing can happen to you, basically."

The cameras were first installed at four intersections in late February.

Offenders caught by police can face a fine up to $200.

Getting caught on camera, however, is a civil violation that carries a $75 fine.

The problem is that it contradicts state law to issue a civil violation for a state law which defines running a red light as a misdemeanor criminal offense.

Because its a civil citation for a criminal offense I am not allowed my right of due process or the right to face my accuser.

Im reading more into it before I decide what to do.

[Blake]

According to the five-year contract between the City and the vendor, ATS is responsible to process the citations, collect the traffic fines, and once the fine is paid, send the City a portion of the fine for the infraction. ATS retain $40 for each ticket collected since they own the video cameras.

you gotta be sh1tting me.

[Spurminator]

I can sympathize with wanting to fight it even though you know you "technically" broke the law. But from my experience it's not worth it. I skipped half a day of work to try to argue down a noise violation citation I received and I got about $20 knocked off of it. Just pay it and forget about it.

[phyzik]

I can sympathize with wanting to fight it even though you know you "technically" broke the law. But from my experience it's not worth it. I skipped half a day of work to try to argue down a noise violation citation I received and I got about $20 knocked off of it. Just pay it and forget about it.

Or I could just NOT pay it and forget about it since its a civil violation :p:

[PM5K]

Aww man, I wanted to see the video....

[ploto]

I drive in Shavano Park and Castle Hills everyday so you get no sympathy from me.

Follow the law when you drive there.

[ploto]

Or I could just NOT pay it and forget about it since its a civil violation :p:

And you could then discover that you did not get that job you applied for because they checked your credit report and this was on it.

[SpursStalker]

For someone who isn't worried about the 75 bucks you sure are fighting it alot.

:lol

[Nbadan]

The municipal courts should have a sign above the door that reads 'everyone pays', best case scenario you win the case, you still have to pay dismissal fees and for lunch....if its not reported on your driving record give it up...

[DarkReign]

I figure if theyre sending you a picture/video of your traffic offense, its only right to send them a picture/video of the cash as payment in full.

Just take a picture of a $50, $20 and a $5 and mail it in.

[phyzik]

I figure if theyre sending you a picture/video of your traffic offense, its only right to send them a picture/video of the cash as payment in full.

Just take a picture of a $50, $20 and a $5 and mail it in.

and a video on a mini CD of me putting the cash in their return envelope. :lol

[E20]

That's pretty cool where you're at. Only civil if the camera catches you.

In california if the camera catches you on a red light violation it's a 200 dollar fine that you have to pay.