James > MJ

[TheMACHINE]

Who is/was better at this stage of his career, LeBron James or Michael Jordan?

We realize we tread on sacred ground here. Nobody has matched Jordan for an entire career, by almost any measure. But it's important to note that the legend of MJ owes as much to his six NBA titles as to his highlight reels, and that he didn't earn one until his seventh season in the league.

So we start at the beginning, with the most-self-serving-yet-most-repeated-on-talk-radio statistical analysis in the history of sports, the Terry Bradshaw Ring Test. By that measure, which states that a superstar's worth is solely defined by how many pro championships he's won, neither LBJ nor MJ was very good through the sixth season of their respective careers. Certainly they're not Kobe Bryant (three titles) or Tim Duncan (two). Hell, they're not even Beno Udrih (two).

After that, things grow murkier, with arguments either way. Check out this comparison of their first six seasons, courtesy of basketball-reference.com:
LEBRON JAMES VS. MICHAEL JORDAN: FIRST SIX SEASONS

A comparison of LeBron James and Michael Jordan across the first six seasons of their careers. These numbers are per 36 minutes.
Player FG% 3FG% FT% ORB DRB REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
James .471 .328 .738 1.1 5.1 6.2 5.9 1.6 0.8 2.9 1.8 24.4
Jordan .516 .282 .848 1.7 4.1 5.8 5.5 2.6 1.0 3.0 2.9 30.3

Jordan comes out as a better scorer and defender (at least by the measure of steals), and James a better rebounder, passer and, surprisingly, outside shooter (at least from outside the 3-point line). Going deeper into Basketball Reference's numbers using Dean Oliver's win-shares metric, the argument grows still more complex:

JORDAN VS. JAMES WIN SHARES

A next-level look at the relative value of MJ and LeBron over their first six seasons.
Player Name OWS DWS WS
LeBron James 55.6 27.8 83.4
Michael Jordan 65.4 23.8 89.2

Overall, Jordan has accumulated more win shares, thanks largely to his edge in point production. But it turns out that, despite an early reputation as a naïf learning to play D, James has been a better defensive "winner." A curiosity in all this is one stat sometimes overlooked in Jordan career retrospectives: durability. Through six seasons, MJ played 50 fewer games than LBJ. Almost all of that owed to a foot injury in Jordan's second year, but LBJ's minutes per game are higher for most of his early years:
LEBRON JAMES' FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES

A look at The King's time on the floor across his first six seasons.
Year Games Games Started MPG
2003-04 79 79 39.5
2004-05 80 80 42.4
2005-06 79 79 42.5
2006-07 78 78 40.9
2007-08 75 74 40.4
2008-09 81 81 37.7
MICHAEL JORDAN'S FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES

MJ's time logged during his first six years in the league.
Year Games Games Started MPG
1984-85 82 82 38.3
1985-86 18 7 25.1
1986-87 82 82 40.0
1987-88 81 81 40.2
1988-89 75 74 40.4
1989-90 82 82 39.0

A look back at Sam Smith's "The Jordan Rules" shows that MJ believed he wore down late in seasons and wanted to add strength to his post-up game. So he began seriously lifting weights, for the first time, in his seventh year, 1990-91, coinciding with his first title. Even though James was two years younger than MJ was when each entered the league, he grew up in a more fitness-crazed era, in a football-crazed state, where serious weight workouts were part of a high school athlete's routine. James has accelerated his training as a pro, adding more mass and explosiveness to his already unfair physique.

And therein may be the final argument for LBJ, at least so far. Michael struck fear into opponents -- a fear of embarrassment. His incredible quickness and agility could land you on the wrong end of a poster, sure. But tougher to take was his ruthless competitiveness, which he used to humiliate opponents (and if the Rodney McCray stories are true, even teammates).

James inspires a different fear, the kind in which a player is scared for his own physical well-being. His combination of speed, bulk and explosiveness hasn't been seen since, well, ever. The Pistons beat up the young Michael Jordan in the playoffs. If you were quick enough to get in front of him, you didn't fear taking a charge. But who, seriously, would stand in the way of James at full tilt on a breakaway dunk?

Six seasons into his career, James inspires a kind of awe that not even early MJ possessed -- that of a man playing a different sport than everybody else, something akin to Lawrence Taylor or Jim Brown on a football field.

Of course, beginning with his seventh season, Jordan built his own aura with his six titles. And that aura is unlikely to be surpassed as a complete body of work. Unless, of course, LeBron wins a ring this year and hauls in five more.

Maybe there is something to that Bradshaw stat.


Luke Cyphers is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.

[Yuushi12]

EPIC FAIL:wakeup

[Ghazi]

I think Lebron will go down as the 2nd greatest of all time.

He is so transcendent right now that if you swapped him with the best player of 10 other teams they would immediately become the best team in the NBA.

[Extra Stout]

A very unconvincing article.

[manufan10]

Imagine if Jordan would have played under the league rules now in his prime. It would appear he would be an even more phenomenal player. The league is more geared towards the offense. No hand checking, no hard fouls, nothing. Jordan use to get used and abused, in his first 6 years, during the playoffs. Lebron still has a lot to prove.

[stretch]

MJ is still the GOAT, but some people seriously overrate the guy. Guys like Lebron, Wade, and Kobe are not as far off as some people think, and in terms of individual talents/gifts, its arguable that he might rank last place out of those 4 guys.

[mavsluva]

Go ahead and argue over this topic until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that they both are/were tremendous basketball players and successful human beings.

END OF THREAD

[Donkeybong]

i think the only argument against MJ is that he didnt have to deal with the Zone offense, which gave him much better opportunities to drive the lane. I dont really by the hand checking thing since that stuff still happens all the time today.

[stretch]

Imagine if Jordan would have played under the league rules now in his prime. It would appear he would be an even more phenomenal player. The league is more geared towards the offense. No hand checking, no hard fouls, nothing. Jordan use to get used and abused, in his first 6 years, during the playoffs. Lebron still has a lot to prove.

To be fair, Jordan also played in eras that focused less on defense, and more on offense. Many players were able to score more points because of the run heavy styles that prevailed, and the general lack of defense, whereas most of todays game has slowed down a bit with more attention to defense and rebounding. Also zone defense is allowed today. Not saying that MJ couldn't overcome it, but it would still slow him down some, as it does to any individual scorer. Add to that, the fact that there are a LOT of damn good defenders in todays league, such as Bowen, Artest, Battier, Posey, etc... as well as better offensive players at the SG/SF positions as well, people that are on or even above his level athletically, which was unheard of back in the 80's/90's. Jordan would have a much harder time guarding guys like Kobe, Wade, and Lebron, as opposed to Nique and Clyde.

I don't think Jordan would be the scorer he was in the 80s, in today's league at all. He would still be fantastic, don't get me wrong, but no way in hell would he be better.

[Allanon]

LeBron's going to be on that list of 10 Greatest Players to never win a ring pretty soon.

He was just born at the wrong time, just like Barkley and Jordan.

[Ghazi]

LeBron's going to be on that list of 10 Greatest Players to never win a ring pretty soon.

retarded

[Ghazi]

75 win motherfucking ecstasy!!!! :smokin

[stretch]

i think the only argument against MJ is that he didnt have to deal with the Zone offense, which gave him much better opportunities to drive the lane. I dont really by the hand checking thing since that stuff still happens all the time today.

Yeah, hand checking is pretty much allowed unless its a blatant push, or the arm is fully extended.

[Allanon]

75 win motherfucking ecstasy!!!! :smokin

Dallas Mavs mutherfucking 2006 NBA Champs!!!! :lol

[Ghazi]

Agreed

[Allanon]

retarded

Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, BigZ are around ~35. The only young Big the Cavs have is Verajao.

If LeBron don't win this year, he's screwed.

[manufan10]

To be fair, Jordan also played in eras that focused less on defense, and more on offense. Many players were able to score more points because of the run heavy styles that prevailed, and the general lack of defense, whereas most of todays game has slowed down a bit with more attention to defense and rebounding. Also zone defense is allowed today. Not saying that MJ couldn't overcome it, but it would still slow him down some, as it does to any individual scorer.

I don't think Jordan would be the scorer he was in the 80s, in today's league at all. He would still be fantastic, don't get me wrong, but no way in hell would he be better.

How could he not be better? In the 80's teams were allowed to hand check and they fouled hard. I think Jordan would have excelled in today's game. In his last 2 years on the Wizards he averaged 22.9 and 20.0 ppg. This is after he was well past his prime. I believe Jordan would have been a better scorer than he was in the 80's with today's rules.

Edit: I saw your edit, so I'll edit mine too. I think that it would go both ways. He would have to defend Kobe and Lebron, but they in turn would have to guard him. The NBA does have some great perimeter defenders, now put them back in the 80's where physicality was tolerated. Those guys would be beasts on the defensive end. They could get away with a lot more than they already do. I think it's a testament to Jordan that he did what he did. I'm not trying to diminish anything that Lebron has done or will do. I think Jordan/Lebron are pure joy to watch play talent wise.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

so basically, the man wrote an entire article trying to explain why LeBron is better than MJ, and the best he could come up with is that nobody wants to get hit by LeBron when he's on his way to the basket?? GIVE. ME. A. FUCKING. BREAK!!

[TampaDude]

To be fair, Jordan also played in eras that focused less on defense, and more on offense. Many players were able to score more points because of the run heavy styles that prevailed, and the general lack of defense, whereas most of todays game has slowed down a bit with more attention to defense and rebounding. Also zone defense is allowed today. Not saying that MJ couldn't overcome it, but it would still slow him down some, as it does to any individual scorer. Add to that, the fact that there are a LOT of damn good defenders in todays league, such as Bowen, Artest, Battier, Posey, etc... as well as better offensive players at the SG/SF positions as well, people that are on or even above his level athletically, which was unheard of back in the 80's/90's. Jordan would have a much harder time guarding guys like Kobe, Wade, and Lebron, as opposed to Nique and Clyde.

I don't think Jordan would be the scorer he was in the 80s, in today's league at all. He would still be fantastic, don't get me wrong, but no way in hell would he be better.

Yup...you need to adjust the stats for pace of game when comparing MJ to LeBron.

LeBron James is playing at a level that is simply breathtaking to watch. Unless he gets injured, the Cavs will win the NBA Championship this year.

[poop]

if you take lebrons defensive win shares and add his total assists per 48 minutes, then compare it to the ratio of pi to the length of jordan's forearm, you get a an equal sum to the age of lebron in dog years. this multipied by the average weather at 4:58 pm in san antonio = jordan.





hahaha oh brother at the extreme extraoplation of stats and vague measures that are getting ridiculous

[stretch]

How could he not be better? In the 80's teams were allowed to hand check and they fouled hard. I think Jordan would have excelled in today's game. In his last 2 years on the Wizards he averaged 22.9 and 20.0 ppg. This is after he was well past his prime. I believe Jordan would have been a better scorer than he was in the 80's with today's rules.

Teams still hand check, and can also play zone defense. And simply look at the competition like I said... athletically, NO ONE had a chance in hell at containing Jordan, whereas today, the league is full of athletes on par with Jordan. Jordan was able to just blow right by guys who simply were not quick enough to guard him. Wouldn't happen as easily today. And teams preach defense a lot more in today's league, whereas the 80's was all about run, run, run. Terrible defense, terrible rebounding, and faster paces led to more scoring.

[DrHouse]

Jordan would have had a tougher time scoring in today's league. And that is because zone defenses are now allowed. Most teams don't run zones, but hybrid zones where they load up on one side and force perimeter players into traps. Basically shutting down the middle of the paint and conceding the jumpshot. Also you can double team a man in the post who doesn't have the ball, which was illegal in MJ's time, and that would have limited Jordan's incredible post up game.

Lebron can overcome this because of his freakish athleticism, however, when that goes so will his game because his jumper is not developed and likely never will be. He has mediocre footwork, no post game to speak of, and what most would consider a mediocre midrange shooting touch for a superstar perimeter player.

To compare him to MJ is laughable IMHO because he will never be able to have the extended career that MJ did. What you're seeing from Lebron right now and in the next 2-3 years will be the best basketball he will ever play because he's in his athletic prime.

[stretch]

Edit: I saw your edit, so I'll edit mine too. I think that it would go both ways. He would have to defend Kobe and Lebron, but they in turn would have to guard him. The NBA does have some great perimeter defenders, now put them back in the 80's where physicality was tolerated. Those guys would be beasts on the defensive end. They could get away with a lot more than they already do. I think it's a testament to Jordan that he did what he did. I'm not trying to diminish anything that Lebron has done or will do. I think Jordan/Lebron are pure joy to watch play talent wise.

I agree that they are both incredible talents.

But your argument about Kobe/Lebron having to defend him is already kinda out the window, since they already have to defend each other, as well as Wade. And IMO, Lebron and Wade are both tougher to guard 1-on-1 than Jordan.

And your point about perimeter defenders today actually served my point well. If you stuck them in the 80s, NO ONE would even be on their level defensively. Thats how much better the premier defenders today are, as opposed to the top defenders of the 80s.

[stretch]

Lebron can overcome this because of his freakish athleticism, however, when that goes so will his game because his jumper is not developed and likely never will be. He has mediocre footwork, no post game to speak of, and what most would consider a mediocre midrange shooting touch for a superstar perimeter player.

To compare him to MJ is laughable IMHO because he will never be able to have the extended career that MJ did. What you're seeing from Lebron right now and in the next 2-3 years will be the best basketball he will ever play because he's in his athletic prime.

Jordan wasn't exactly much of a shooter coming into the league either. In fact, if he was a rookie in today's league, he would probably be bashed for similar things, because he wouldn't be able to completely dominate games by penetration alone, like he was in the 80s. A lot of that is because of the advanced defensive schemes of today's game. In fact, its even arguable that he wouldn't even be nearly as effective as Lebron was able to be coming into the league. But over time, Jordan developed a very solid and consistent shot. To say Lebron never will is purely retarded. His footwork and postgame has improved a lot too. You must still be thinking of the Lebron of 2-3 years ago.

And obviously you don't realize how well Lebron takes care of his body. He will last longer than you think. Every time he is done with a game, you will see him on the sidelines with ice all around his joints. His workout routine and diet is incredible. The guy will be around for a long time.

[TampaDude]

Bah...if you wanna talk rings, MJ's got nothing on Bill Russell. :hat

[stretch]

Bah...if you wanna talk rings, MJ's got nothing on Bill Russell. :hat

Rings is the most overused stat when ranking how good an individual was. Players don't win rings. Teams do.

[Amaso]

Bah...if you wanna talk rings, MJ's got nothing on Bill Russell. :hat

You replace Bill Russell with me on those Celtics teams against the 8 other NBA teams during his time and I guarantee you we still win 11 rings.

[TampaDude]

Rings is the most overused stat when ranking how good an individual was. Players don't win rings. Teams do.

My point exactly. Thank you. :toast

[manufan10]

But your argument about Kobe/Lebron having to defend him is already kinda out the window, since they already have to defend each other, as well as Wade. And IMO, Lebron and Wade are both tougher to guard 1-on-1 than Jordan.


I honestly think that Jordan would be able to handle it. I think to say Jordan wouldn't is really a disgrace to what his Airness was. Maybe it's because he played so long ago. If Lebron can handle it as an 18 year old kid, I think MJ would be able to do the same. I don't question that Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are great players. However, to say that Jordan wouldn't be the same because he would have to defend them is nonsense. Jordan was a good defender in his own rights. He was an ultimate competitor and a student of the game and very intelligent. I think he would handle himself just the same if not better in today's league.

[manufan10]

Jordan wasn't exactly much of a shooter coming into the league either. In fact, if he was a rookie in today's league, he would probably be bashed for similar things, because he wouldn't be able to completely dominate games by penetration alone, like he was in the 80s. A lot of that is because of the advanced defensive schemes of today's game. In fact, its even arguable that he wouldn't even be nearly as effective as Lebron was able to be coming into the league. But over time, Jordan developed a very solid and consistent shot. To say Lebron never will is purely retarded. His footwork and postgame has improved a lot too. You must still be thinking of the Lebron of 2-3 years ago.

And obviously you don't realize how well Lebron takes care of his body. He will last longer than you think. Every time he is done with a game, you will see him on the sidelines with ice all around his joints. His workout routine and diet is incredible. The guy will be around for a long time.

His (Jordan's) 3 point shooting %, in the 80's, is ugly!! :lol :toast

[stretch]

My point exactly. Thank you. :toast

I think people just see rings, and instantly think "leadership!"

I personally look at individual leadership performances, whether in win or loss. I think people can display great leadership even if they lose. Whereas people can show poor leadership even though they win.

[DrHouse]

Jordan wasn't exactly much of a shooter coming into the league either. In fact, if he was a rookie in today's league, he would probably be bashed for similar things, because he wouldn't be able to completely dominate games by penetration alone, like he was in the 80s. A lot of that is because of the advanced defensive schemes of today's game. In fact, its even arguable that he wouldn't even be nearly as effective as Lebron was able to be coming into the league. But over time, Jordan developed a very solid and consistent shot. To say Lebron never will is purely retarded. His footwork and postgame has improved a lot too. You must still be thinking of the Lebron of 2-3 years ago.

And obviously you don't realize how well Lebron takes care of his body. He will last longer than you think. Every time he is done with a game, you will see him on the sidelines with ice all around his joints. His workout routine and diet is incredible. The guy will be around for a long time.

Wrong.

Jordan's F/T percentage coming into the league was 84.5%. The shooting touch was always there, just never utilized or fully developed until it needed to be.

Lebron came into the league shooting about 75% from the F/T line and actually saw his numbers DECREASE to as low as 70% in the next couple of seasons. That is pretty unheard of in this league. I'll agree with you that he has improved his form and is now shooting a respectable 78% from the F/T line, but that is still pretty bad for a superstar perimeter player.

[triple t's]

who teh hell cares who the GOAT is, its a team sport and youre judged by rings. There's always going to come along a person thats better than you and that time will come for jordan as well as lebron. But at the moment, jordan has 6 titles. so ...

[stretch]

I honestly think that Jordan would be able to handle it. I think to say Jordan wouldn't is really a disgrace to what his Airness was. Maybe it's because he played so long ago. If Lebron can handle it as an 18 year old kid, I think MJ would be able to do the same. I don't question that Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are great players. However, to say that Jordan wouldn't be the same because he would have to defend them is nonsense. Jordan was a good defender in his own rights. He was an ultimate competitor and a student of the game and very intelligent. I think he would handle himself just the same if not better in today's league.

Again, I'm not saying he couldn't handle it. And I'm not saying hes not the GOAT, because he is. I just don't think he is as far ahead of guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Wade, as people say. I feel a lot of it is nostalgia, and people simply watching highlight clips of all the good he does, forgetting that he has flaws, just like anyone.

And when I say he wouldn't be the same because of other guys on his level, I'm talking about on defense more-so, because he wouldn't be as dominant of a defender, because he would have better competition to face, guys comparable to his skill level. And then other defenders are better, and able to give him more fits than people were in the 80s. I think you misunderstood that point.

[stretch]

Wrong.

Jordan's F/T percentage coming into the league was 84.5%. The shooting touch was always there, just never utilized or fully developed until it needed to be.

Lebron came into the league shooting about 75% from the F/T line and actually saw his numbers DECREASE to as low as 70% in the next couple of seasons. That is pretty unheard of in this league. I'll agree with you that he has improved his form and is now shooting a respectable 78% from the F/T line, but that is still pretty bad for a superstar perimeter player.

Well just look at T-Mac. The guy is a fantastic shooter with insane range, but has always struggled from the line. Artest also has been a good shooter (with bad shot selection harming his percentages), but a terrible FT shooter.

How about Bruce Bowen? Always had a great 3pt shot, but terrible from the line.

[DrHouse]

Well just look at T-Mac. The guy is a fantastic shooter with insane range, but has always struggled from the line. Artest also has been a good shooter (with bad shot selection harming his percentages), but a terrible FT shooter.

How about Bruce Bowen? Always had a great 3pt shot, but terrible from the line.

Wrong. Lebron's F/T percentage directly mirrors his bad midrange game and it pretty much does with most NBA players, the ones you have named are anomalies. You're not going to find a single person on this board that thinks Lebron James has a good midrange jumper.

He actually shoots better from 3pt land than he does inside of the arc.

[stretch]

He actually shoots better from 3pt land than he does inside of the arc.

Prove it.

[DrHouse]

As far as I know the NBA doesn't specifically record stats for inside the arc midrange shots.

[manufan10]

And when I say he wouldn't be the same because of other guys on his level, I'm talking about on defense more-so, because he wouldn't be as dominant of a defender, because he would have better competition to face, guys comparable to his skill level. And then other defenders are better, and able to give him more fits than people were in the 80s. I think you misunderstood that point.

I think he would still be a good defender. He might not be a Bruce Bowen/Ron Artest defender, but I think him and Kobe would be on the same level. It's too far back for me to remember his defense. :lol It's all good. I think the competition would bring out the best in Jordan, and since there are better defenders now, it would benefit Jordan. Competition is what drove him, and I think he would have played better. I'm just glad I was able to witness seeing Jordan and Lebron play. :worthy:

[DAF86]

As far as I know the NBA doesn't specifically record stats for inside the arc midrange shots.

What about the player's shooting chart where you see his shooting % from pretty much anywhere on the court?

[ElNono]

Yeah, but Matt Bonner >>>>> MJ > LBJ

[urunobili]

until he wins 6 ships... MJ>LBJ

As KB24 never won one without Shaq... it's fair to say nowdays that LBJ>KB24 though :stirpot:

[manufan10]

Yeah, but Matt Bonner >>>>> MJ > LBJ

+1

RED ROCKET!

:lmao

[DrHouse]

until he wins 6 ships... MJ>LBJ

As KB24 never won one without Shaq... it's fair to say nowdays that LBJ>KB24 though :stirpot:

Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen either.

Your argument is stupid and baseless. Kobe has 3 rings that he legitimately earned.

As far as rings go, KB24 > LBJ.

[urunobili]

Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen either.

Your argument is stupid and baseless. Kobe has 3 rings that he legitimately earned.

As far as rings go, KB24 > LBJ.

KB24 wasn't the go-to guy neither the best player on the teams that won those 3 rings... :wakeup

The only time he got a shot at doing it by himself he failed just like LBJ did...

Therefore... they should be compared by individual performance in between them... then is when LBJ is clearly > KB24

[JamStone]

I'll add a couple of things to offer some more perspective about Michael Jordan when he played, even though I'm not trying to argue either way between him and LeBron at this point in their respective careers. I still think LeBron has a ways to go before comparisons are fair, at any stage of their careers.

But, at any rate, something to consider aside from the differences in pace, the hand check rule, and zone defense is the fact that Michael Jordan was one of the first of his size at the shooting guard position. He was a pretty legitimate 6-foot-6 and played approximately between 205 and 215 lbs. for most of his career. In the late 80s and early 90s, that was an incredible size for a shooting guard. Add his long wingspan and huge hands, he had a physical advantage essentially every night. The average shooting guard in the late 80s and early 90s was about 6-foot-3 to 6-foot-4 and around 180 lbs., particularly the shooting guards on some of the better teams in that period, like Danny Ainge, Joe Dumars, Byron Scott, and John Starks. Guys with the size like Jordan and Drexler and Reggie Miller (at least height wise) was very rare back then for the shooting guard position. Today, it's extremely rare a shooting guard isn't at least 6-foot-6, athletic, and with a great wingspan. You add the fact that his small forward teammate was Scottie Pippen, and teams rarely could afford to switch their small forward onto Jordan to defend him.

Jordan is still the greatest of all time. And, he'd still dominate in today's game. But, while it's all hypothetical and conjecture, I actually do side with the opinion that he wouldn't dominate the same way or much more that Kobe and LeBron and Wade do, if more at all.

[DAF86]

Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen either.

Your argument is stupid and baseless. Kobe has 3 rings that he legitimately earned.

As far as rings go, KB24 > LBJ.

The diference is that MJ was the best player on the Bulls, Kobe wasn't the best player on that Lakers team.

[DrHouse]

KB24 wasn't the go-to guy neither the best player on the teams that won those 3 rings... :wakeup

The only time he got a shot at doing it by himself he failed just like LBJ did...

Therefore... they should be compared by individual performance in between them... then is when LBJ is clearly > KB24

Kobe was very much the go to guy in the clutch.

Go back and rewatch the tape.

[JamStone]

Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen either.

Your argument is stupid and baseless. Kobe has 3 rings that he legitimately earned.

As far as rings go, KB24 > LBJ.

John Havlicek > Jordan > Kobe

Havlicek won 8 rings, and even won two rings without Bill Russell.

[urunobili]

Kobe was very much the go to guy in the clutch.

Go back and rewatch the tape.

I don't need to re-watch a whole lot when Shaq was voted by specialized media as the Finals MVP 3 times in a row when KB24 got nada...

Being clutch in a 4th quarter doesn't make you the best player on the team either...

You have NO WAY to prove me wrong with my statement... give up already...

[DrHouse]

Being voted Finals MVP is irrelevant.

The Lakers would not have won in 2000 were it not for Kobe's heroics in the Finals. He was very much a pivotal player in all of those championships, equally as important as Shaq was. To try and say one was more valuable than the other because of some dumbass media award is ludicrous at best and only shows how pathetic you are in your hatred of Bryant who has crushed the Spurs countless times in the playoffs.

Just say it. You hate Kobe because of what he has done to your team over and over and over again in the playoffs.

[TheMACHINE]

I don't need to re-watch a whole lot when Shaq was voted by specialized media as the Finals MVP 3 times in a row when KB24 got nada...

Being clutch in a 4th quarter doesn't make you the best player on the team either...

You have NO WAY to prove me wrong with my statement... give up already...

if u did rewatch the playoffs those years, you would know that Shaq did win the Finals MVP, but if there were a Playoff MVP, Kobe would have gotten 2 out of the 3. Even haters know that.

[stretch]

As far as I know the NBA doesn't specifically record stats for inside the arc midrange shots.

Wrong. Ever been to NBA hot spots?

Since 2004 (I would include 2003 but they didn't have it for that year), Lebron has shot over 36% on midrange shots (1133 of 3131). Yes, not very impressive, but no one ever said it was either. Just something that can be improved on.

However, since 2004 he has also shot 33% on 3pt shots (574 of 1704).

So if you don't have evidence to back up your stupid-ass claims, then shut the fuck up, dumbass.

[ElNono]

Everybody knows...

Horry > Shaq > Rick Fox > Isaiah Rider > Kobe

[urunobili]

Being voted Finals MVP is irrelevant.

:lmao is it?


The Lakers would not have won in 2000 were it not for Kobe's heroics in the Finals. He was very much a pivotal player in all of those championships, equally as important as Shaq was. To try and say one was more valuable than the other because of some dumbass media award is ludicrous at best and only shows how pathetic you are in your hatred of Bryant who has crushed the Spurs countless times in the playoffs.

:lol in other words you're saying that being the second best player on the team as Shaq's sidekick puts you at the same level of LBJ that has no such thing on his team? sorry I LOL'd that would mean Manu=KB24 (and they have the same amount of rings playing as a sidekick star)


Just say it. You hate Kobe because of what he has done to your team over and over and over again in the playoffs.

I don't hate KB24 at all... link to where you can prove that??? he is a joy to watch if you like basketball and i do... but your statements arent convincing anyone that he is even on LBJ's league...

[urunobili]

if u did rewatch the playoffs those years, you would know that Shaq did win the Finals MVP, but if there were a Playoff MVP, Kobe would have gotten 2 out of the 3. Even haters know that.

dude... get real... the Lakers will end up retiring nbr 8 not 24... :lol

[stretch]

:lol in other words you're saying that being the second best player on the team as Shaq's sidekick puts you at the same level of LBJ that has no such thing on his team? sorry I LOL'd that would mean Manu=KB24 (and they have the same amount of rings playing as a sidekick star)

that is why rings are such an overrated stat when measuring an individual player and his abilities.

[resistanze]

I don't how Laker fan can argue the 3-peat team was Shaq's team.

Do they Lakers win in '02 without Horry's shot?

Does that make Horry just as important as Shaq and Kobe on that Laker's team?

[Allanon]

It's always been the same for Kobe and Shaq. Shaq would dominate the first 3 quarters and Kobe would take over in the 4th. Shaq's free throw liability made Kobe an instant hero.

And that's how the legend of Kobe "The Closer" Bryant began.

[stretch]

And that's how the legend of Kobe "The Closer" Bryant began.

:rolleyes can we please stop with the dick sucking

[Allanon]

:rolleyes can we please stop with the dick sucking

Slurp, slurp, slurp. Be all you can be, Stretch.

[DrHouse]

I find it rather surprising that I have to explain Kobe's importance in each of those 3 rings to a Spur fan. They of all people should know better.

Kobe absolutely murdered the Spurs.

[urunobili]

Slurp, slurp, slurp.
Don't be greedy Allanon save some of the load for Dr.House and TheMAChine :lol

[urunobili]

I find it rather surprising that I have to explain Kobe's importance in each of those 3 rings to a Spur fan. They of all people should know better.

Kobe absolutely murdered the Spurs.

Indeed he destroyed the Spurs props to that :toast...

Still that doesn't make him the best player on the threepeat... :nope

so being "important" = the best player on the team for you? :lmao

[Allanon]

Don't be greedy Allanon save some of the load for Dr.House and TheMAChine :lol

Nah. Kobe's black, his dick's so big there's enough left for you to have a lickspace, too. Come on in! :lol

[DrHouse]

Indeed he destroyed the Spurs props to that :toast...

Still that doesn't make him the best player on the threepeat... :nope

so being "important" = the best player on the team for you? :lmao

I'd say it's more 60/40 in terms of who was more important, with the nod going to Shaq obviously.

But to then turn this around and say Kobe doesn't deserve his 3 rings, which is exactly what Spur fans try to do, is completely dishonest and disingenuous at best.

The Lakers aren't winning a single championship without either Kobe or Shaq. Period. That's my point.

[ElNono]

I find it rather surprising that I have to explain Kobe's importance in each of those 3 rings to a Spur fan. They of all people should know better.

Kobe absolutely murdered the Spurs.

Not really. The Spurs playoff record against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers is 2-3. Hardly murder.

And I don't think anybody claims Kobe doesn't deserves his rings. He was simply not the leader OR best player in those teams. And there's really nothing to argue about that.

[stretch]

I find it rather surprising that I have to explain Kobe's importance in each of those 3 rings to a Spur fan. They of all people should know better.

Kobe absolutely murdered the Spurs.

I find it amusing when you make claims that have no backing to them.

[urunobili]

But to then turn this around and say Kobe doesn't deserve his 3 rings, which is exactly what Spur fans try to do, is completely dishonest and disingenuous at best.

link to prove this???

[DAF86]

I'd say it's more 60/40 in terms of who was more important, with the nod going to Shaq obviously.

But to then turn this around and say Kobe doesn't deserve his 3 rings, which is exactly what Spur fans try to do, is completely dishonest and disingenuous at best.

The Lakers aren't winning a single championship without either Kobe or Shaq. Period. That's my point.

Who the fuck said that? stop making shit up.

[ambchang]

Jordan > Lebron > Kobe

There really shouldn't be any questions about this anymore.

And 00 to 02 Kobe rings = 90's Jordan riings is hilarious.
Let me get the logic straight.
Kobe had Shaq, but Jordan had Pippen, does that mean that Jordan = Pippen then? They both won 6 rings, and neither of them won it without the other.

[Banzai]

qIxAcQh5Spo

[Allanon]

All the great players of the last 3 decades are in this video.

There's one "great" player obviously missing, I wonder why he isn't there? And it ain't Charles Barkley :lol

tiomX-_mpKU

[DAF86]

All the great players of the last 3 decades are in this video.

There's one "great" player obviously missing, I wonder why he isn't there? And it ain't Charles Barkley :lol

tiomX-_mpKU

Andrew Bynum?

[ffadicted]

I came into this thread with an open mind, and read to argue a case for MJ. But after you so blatantly failed miserably at writing it, posted multiple reasons why jordan is better, then somehow came to the conclusion LBJ is better, I'm not gonna waste my time. :wakeup

[DrHouse]

Yes this thread is another epic fail of Spur fan's illogical justifications to prove why Kobe is somehow not a world champion.

[manufan10]

Wow how quickly this has turned into a Kobe thread.

[stretch]

damn laker fans

[urunobili]

Yes in this thread I have been owned on multiple occasions when i tried to make shit up or failed to prove that Kobe should be on MJ or LBJ's class

:cell

[DrHouse]

And it should be no surprise that Spur fan yet again turns this into a Kobe bash fest


until he wins 6 ships... MJ>LBJ

As KB24 never won one without Shaq... it's fair to say nowdays that LBJ>KB24 though :stirpot:

[DAF86]

And it should be no surprise that Spur fan yet again turns this into a Kobe bash fest



Laker fans and gentlemen I present to you the post that turn this thread into a Kobe thread:


LeBron's going to be on that list of 10 Greatest Players to never win a ring pretty soon.

He was just born at the wrong time, just like Barkley and Jordan.

As you can see, posted by a Laker fan. And then they ask why regular people hate them so much.

[DrHouse]

Laker fans and gentlemen I present to you the post that turn this thread into a Kobe thread:



As you can see, posted by a Laker fan. And then they ask why regular people hate them so much.

Dumbass. His post has nothing to do with Kobe.

You = fail at life.

[Allanon]

until he wins 6 ships... MJ>LBJ

As KB24 never won one without Shaq... it's fair to say nowdays that LBJ>KB24 though :stirpot:

Here's the pot-stirrer right here, wasn't a Lakers fan this time :lol

[DAF86]

Dumbass. His post has nothing to do with Kobe.

You = fail at life.

Coming from you, that's a compliment.

[manufan10]

Here's the pot-stirrer right here, wasn't a Lakers fan this time :lol

:wow I think he did it on purpose. :lol

[Allanon]

Laker fans and gentlemen I present to you the post that turn this thread into a Kobe thread:



As you can see, posted by a Laker fan. And then they ask why regular people hate them so much.

Hahah, I didn't even mention Kobe, how can you say I turned this into a Kobe thread? That's crazy man.

Look at Urunobili's post...he even included a picture knowing he was stirring the Kobe pot :lmao


until he wins 6 ships... MJ>LBJ

As KB24 never won one without Shaq... it's fair to say nowdays that LBJ>KB24 though :stirpot:

[DAF86]

Hahah, I didn't even mention Kobe, how can you say I turned this into a Kobe thread? That's crazy man.

Yeah 'cause you expect Lebron to lose against Billup's Nugetts. :rolleyes

[Allanon]

Yeah 'cause you expect Lebron to lose against Billup's Nugetts. :rolleyes

I'm not even sure he can get by Dwight Howard.

But I definitely didn't mention Kobe...one of your own men did.

[urunobili]

And it should be no surprise that Spur fan yet again turns this into a Kobe bash fest

:lol and that proves what? That after i saw some Laker fans trolling a thread about two players where KB24 has no place to be named with and I was starting some chatter bringing him to the table for fun? stop embarrassing yourself please

[TampaDude]

John Havlicek > Jordan > Kobe

Havlicek won 8 rings, and even won two rings without Bill Russell.

Well, Bill Russell won 11 rings, and he won five of them without Havlicek. :p:

[DA BULLS]

MJ is still the GOAT, but some people seriously overrate the guy. Guys like Lebron, Wade, and Kobe are not as far off as some people think, and in terms of individual talents/gifts, its arguable that he might rank last place out of those 4 guys.

wanna talk about talent? imo jordan surpasses them all. jordan had a 48 inch vertical..lebron had a 40 inch coming into the league..it prob. is a bit higher being that he has continued to get stronger and better but i doubt its at 48 prob. somewhere around 43 or 44. jordan 40 yard dash was 4.3 lebrons is 4.4. michael is more agile. and kobes vetical is a 38 that was back in the late 90's tho overall it was prob. in the early 40's. that said none of those players are on par w/ mj as far as talent or athletic ability goes. lebron does have the upper hand in the strength and size department..which would be expected being the mj didnt begin lifting weights until his 7th season. imagine if he had began lifting in h.s. like lebron how much better he would have been early in his career. in the 90's tho mj became one of the strongest guards to ever play

[stretch]

wanna talk about talent? imo jordan surpasses them all. jordan had a 48 inch vertical..lebron had a 40 inch coming into the league..it prob. is a bit higher being that he has continued to get stronger and better but i doubt its at 48 prob. somewhere around 43 or 44. jordan 40 yard dash was 4.3 lebrons is 4.4. michael is more agile. and kobes vetical is a 38 that was back in the late 90's tho overall it was prob. in the early 40's. that said none of those players are on par w/ mj as far as talent or athletic ability goes. lebron does have the upper hand in the strength and size department..which would be expected being the mj didnt begin lifting weights until his 7th season. imagine if he had began lifting in h.s. like lebron how much better he would have been early in his career. in the 90's tho mj became one of the strongest guards to ever play

prove it.

and the "imagine if..." stuff is pointless, cuz it applies to everything. we could say "imagine if Lebron was 7'0 and could do all the stuff he does, along with Dirk's shooting ability! he would be the best ever!!!!!!!!!!"

[JustBlaze]

Jerry West thinks Brons betta than Kobe. What say you Kobe jockriders?

[DAF86]

I'm not even sure he can get by Dwight Howard.

But I definitely didn't mention Kobe...one of your own men did.

You were thinking of him, you're always thinking of him.

[ElNono]

Yeah but, what about Paul Pierce? He's the best player in the world! :stirpot:

[DA BULLS]

topendsports.com look the shit up urself

[Allanon]

You were thinking of him, you're always thinking of him.

Come now, let's be reasonable.

Blame me for bringing up Kobe at other times, sure, but it wasn't me this time....this one was obviously Urunobili and he knew it when he did it too :lol

[ElNono]

Bob Marley > Elvis. :stirpot:

[manufan10]

When he enrolled at Chapel Hill, Jordan ran the 40-yard dash in 4.6 seconds. This fall he ran a 4.3. By Curry Kirkpatrick
Issue date: November 28, 1983


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/archive/831128/


(http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/archive/831128/)

[Ghazi]

I actually think rings do measure whether or not you're a legendary player.

Teams do win titles, but legends will find a way to win a ring.

This is why at the very least Lebron should win 2-3 titles. He is playing at a legendary level.

[manufan10]

Vertical leap: 48 in (122 cm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan

It's from wikipedia, so take that for what it's worth.

[ElNono]

I actually think rings do measure whether or not you're a legendary player.

Teams do win titles, but legends will find a way to win a ring.

This is why at the very least Lebron should win 2-3 titles. He is playing at a legendary level.

I agree with this. I don't think it's the be all end all of measuring sticks, but a championship or more being the dominant player does consolidate your greatness, IMHO.

[manufan10]

Lebron's 40:


At 6'8" and at 250 lbs with a timed 4.40 40-yard dash

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/37846-lebron-james-what-if

[Ghazi]

I should say multiple titles like Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/MJ

'04 with the Pistons was kinda weird, because Billups is not an all time great, nor was everyone else on that team.

'06 w/ the Mavs IMO was Dirk being in the right place at the right time. Shaq/Kobe was over by then, Lebron hadn't matured yet, and we won a coin flip against the Spurs. We beat the Heat, but the Heat were probably one of the weaker Finals teams in recent memory. The fact that we weren't able to repeat as champs to some extent showed that while Dirk is a great player, he's not a legendary player.

'08 w/ the Celtics hhmm... KG is great, I just don't think he belongs in the Duncan/Jordan/Hakeem/Shaq class of players. Same goes W/ Pierce

But to conclude, a lot of the great ringless players in the past was usually due to a flaw in their game or maybe they just weren't great ENOUGH.

[stretch]

I agree with this. I don't think it's the be all end all of measuring sticks, but a championship or more being the dominant player does consolidate your greatness, IMHO.

I guess my point, is when people say Jordan is better than Kobe simply because of rings. Or when people say Kobe is better than Lebron simply because of rings. Terrible argument.

The reason Jordan > Kobe is because he had superior leadership characteristics, which helped him lead his team to 6 titles.

And Lebron is better than Kobe, regardless of rings, which goes even further to prove that the rings stuff is not a very good measuring stick.

[DrHouse]

I guess my point, is when people say Jordan is better than Kobe simply because of rings. Or when people say Kobe is better than Lebron simply because of rings. Terrible argument.

The reason Jordan > Kobe is because he had superior leadership characteristics, which helped him lead his team to 6 titles.

And Lebron is better than Kobe, regardless of rings, which goes even further to prove that the rings stuff is not a very good measuring stick.

Lebron is better than Kobe RIGHT NOW.

But let's see him do what Kobe has been doing for 13 seasons.

[DAF86]

Come now, let's be reasonable.

Blame me for bringing up Kobe at other times, sure, but it wasn't me this time....this one was obviously Urunobili and he knew it when he did it too :lol

I was half-kidding with that comment but if you want to be reasonable, fine.

The first thing I thought when I saw your comment was: "he says that to imply that Kobe and the Lakers will win the next 3 or 4 championships (like you said many times on this board), by then the Lebron mania will be over and he will never win a championship and will go down in history as a worst player than Kobe therefore installing the LBJ-Kobe argument" and I bet that when you posted that comment you were thinking something along these lines.

[stretch]

Lebron is better than Kobe RIGHT NOW.

But let's see him do what Kobe has been doing for 13 seasons.

Riding Shaq's back to championships, then when getting his own team, choking playoff series/championships away?

How impressive :rolleyes

[mavs>spurs2]

Anyone who thinks Jordan wouldn't score with even more ease in today's game is fucking retarded. It seems like the level of competition is just weak right now compared to past years, and MJ would eat everyone alive. Take away that handcheck, and watch Michael's super quick first step come into play a lot more as he just burns defender after defender.

[DrHouse]

Kobe has 3 NBA Championships.

Lebron has 0.

[Allanon]

I was half-kidding with that comment but if you want to be reasonable, fine.

I'm kidding with you too, you're a Kobe/Laker hater but you're reasonable and that's cool.



The first thing I thought when I saw your comment was: "he says that to imply that Kobe and the Lakers will win the next 3 or 4 championships (like you said many times on this board), by then the Lebron mania will be over and he will never win a championship and will go down in history as a worst player than Kobe therefore installing the LBJ-Kobe argument" and I bet that when you posted that comment you were thinking something along these lines.

I truly think LeBron will have a hard time getting past Dwight this year. And next year the Cavs team is a mess...probably won't even be a Top 3 team. And by the following year, maybe a Top 10 team. I think Kobe is the least of LeBron's worries since Kobe's in the West.

The Cavs are a win now team, by next year, they will suffer the same fate as the Celtics.

This Cavs team will have peaked this year; and at its peak, I don't think they're good enough to get past the Magic.

I highly doubt there will be a Kobe/LeBron Finals this year, and I'm sure it won't happen after this year unless LeBron moves zip codes.

[KSeal]

Kobe has 3 NBA Championships.

Lebron has 0.

Jeez man haven't you learned by now what all of their responses will be to this? Hopefully in a month they will have to go back to the rapist thing but this will never fly on this forum even though you're right.

[DAF86]

I truly think LeBron will have a hard time getting past Dwight this year. And next year the Cavs team is a mess...probably won't even be a Top 3 team. And by the following year, maybe a Top 10 team. I think Kobe is the least of LeBron's worries since Kobe's in the West.

The Cavs are a win now team, by next year, they will suffer the same fate as the Celtics.

This Cavs team will have peaked this year; and at its peak, I don't think they're good enough to get past the Magic.

I see the Lakers as a much bigger case of a "win now team" than the Cavs, remember: this is the first year that this Cavs core play toghether, if they lose they can still take it as "experience" for next year. If the Lakers lose they'll be getting their second consecutive frustration. If LA doesn't win this year many of the current players on its roster will be gone for next season.

[Allanon]

I see the Lakers as a much bigger case of a "win now team" than the Cavs, remember: this is the first year that this Cavs core play toghether, if they lose they can still take it as "experience" for next year. If the Lakers lose they'll be getting their second consecutive frustration. If LA doesn't win this year many of the current players on its roster will be gone for next season.

It's more about age of the Cavs big men than anything.

BigZ, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith are all around 35 years old. The Cavs won't have much of a Center after this year. Verajao's the only decent young big man left.

Cavs also play a very small starting guard duo of West & Mo...probably the shortest starting Guard Duo in the NBA. The Cavs will have to move one of them to get some size in the back court.

Cavs have alot of questions to be answered after this run; that's why I think this year is the closest LeBron will come to an NBA Championship for a long time to come.

[stretch]

Anyone who thinks Jordan wouldn't score with even more ease in today's game is fucking retarded. It seems like the level of competition is just weak right now compared to past years, and MJ would eat everyone alive. Take away that handcheck, and watch Michael's super quick first step come into play a lot more as he just burns defender after defender.

lol, mj nostalgia

[DrHouse]

No the Lakers have a plethora of young talent and all of their star players are in their primes right now. Their window is open for the next 3-4 years.

[ManuTP9]

http://i42.tinypic.com/10end3a.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

Defensive 3 second rule makes it easier to drive to the rim nowadays. Stern planned it this way.

Prime Jordan would average 40-50 in today's game.

[MiamiHeat]

LeBron would have more than 3 titles by now if he had Prime Shaq to ride.

the fact that the Lakers failed in 04 big time falls all on kobe bryant for sucking hard.

Funny how Laker fans give Kobe credit for riding shaq's coattails. Penny Hardaway, Dwyane Wade ring a bell? all went to the finals too, and Wade won it too.

[scanry]

LeBron would have more than 3 titles by now if he had Prime Shaq to ride.

the fact that the Lakers failed in 04 big time falls all on kobe bryant for sucking hard.

Funny how Laker fans give Kobe credit for riding shaq's coattails. Penny Hardaway, Dwyane Wade ring a bell? all went to the finals too, and Wade won it too.

Haven't you been here long enough? The Mavs are the 2006 Champs. Bitch ass Ghazi will ramble on and on if you think otherwise.... :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

lol, mj nostalgia

Does being a nonconformist make you feel cool? Dude, in this case, the masses are right...MJ had the quickest first step ever. The handcheck was invented to negate that first step. You do the math.

[urunobili]

No the Lakers have a plethora of young talent and all of their star players are in their primes right now. Their window is open for the next 3-4 years.

If you choke again this year that team will collapse pretty fast :wakeup

LeBron by the other hand... he wins it all.. he starts a dynasty in Cleva... :downspin:

[ezau]

Sure, James is one freak of nature. Then again, Jordan would completely blow by him during his prime. I don't think James has the capacity to handle Jordan one on one. James might be very strong, but he needs to maximize that by having a post-game. Jordan had a post game, James nada

[Jacko]

Lebron has a ton of holes in his game right now that are compensated for by his freakish athleticism. Until he plugs all of those gaps he can't be compared to MJ IMHO.

MJ was able to play at a dominant level until his mid to late 30's. Does anyone here seriously believe Lebron will be dominant past 30?

[Bob Lanier]

Jordan and his game were a lot better looking.

And since this is entertainment...

[stretch]

Does being a nonconformist make you feel cool? Dude, in this case, the masses are right...MJ had the quickest first step ever. The handcheck was invented to negate that first step. You do the math.

Nonconformist? :lol Listen, just because I don't sit around watching highlight clips of Jordan, and thinking that those highlights is all he was capable of doing, doesn't classify me as a nonconformist. More like a realist, and an analyst.

Be real here... MJ was ahead of his time. You think that Kobe, Lebron, or Wade (who IMO has the quickest first step ive ever seen) in the 80s against those less athletic, smaller defenders couldn't have created the same problems? Get the hell out of here. Any single one of those guys would have been averaging 30+ ppg in the 80s like Jordan did, causing the physical requirements of the guard positions to change, as well as opposing defensive tactics. There was virtually NO ONE that had the kinds of skills and athleticism that Jordan had, and no one that could find ways to slow it down without a double team, whereas the league is FULL of people that have that kind of athleticism, or even superior athleticism, as well as defenders that are somewhat capable of slowing those kinds of players down without a double team. The league has also grown considerably in defensive tactics, so teams know how to deal with such players much better than they did in the 80s.

Jordan was great. Best of all time. But he is not as far ahead of those guys as people think. Personally, I think the only clear edge he really has is a mental edge, although I think that applies more to Kobe and Wade. I feel its arguable that Lebron may actually have an even better mental approach to the game than Jordan. Only time will tell though. I also feel that Kobe has better shooting abilities, and Wade is a superior penetrator. I think all 4 of those guys have areas in which they are superior to the other. Only Jordan has already finished his career. These guys still have plenty of time to go.

Personally, I don't see Kobe surpassing Jordan after the chokejobs hes pulled in recent years. I just don't think he has the natural leadership skills and doesn't get a certain kind of respect that Jordan got from both his teammates and opponents. People don't like Kobe because they think he's an asshole and wannabe Jordan. People didn't like Jordan because they were scared shitless of him. I think Wade lacks the hunger to win that Kobe, Lebron, and MJ has/had. Lebron I think has the best chance, but he has to work to improve his shot and other areas of his game to help his longevity, otherwise once his athleticism goes, he may run into trouble.

[stretch]

Lebron has a ton of holes in his game right now that are compensated for by his freakish athleticism. Until he plugs all of those gaps he can't be compared to MJ IMHO.

That makes no sense at all.

If anything, that shows just how good and special Lebron is... that he can still not be fully developed or in his prime, yet there are arguments that he is at the same level or even better than Jordan was 6 years into his career.

[stretch]

Sure, James is one freak of nature. Then again, Jordan would completely blow by him during his prime. I don't think James has the capacity to handle Jordan one on one. James might be very strong, but he needs to maximize that by having a post-game. Jordan had a post game, James nada

I don't think that he would blow by him as easily as you think. Lebron has shown he is capable containing Kobe and Wade.

Again, I'm not sure what makes people think Lebron has no post game. I have yet to see anyone stop him from posting them up. He just rarely has a need to because no one can hold him from taking them straight up. But when he does, he often makes people look stupid.

IMO, in a 7 game series of 1-on-1, I think out of Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and MJ, Wade and Lebron would be fighting for the 1st and 2nd spots. MJ 3rd. Kobe 4th.

[Killakobe81]

Stats are not a complete indicator of who is greater ...at this point one could argue that LBJ has acomplished more BUT he was on bad teams like LBJ was but there was no Pistons or Hawks to dominate in the playofs
I dont care what the stats say ..Mj is a wayyy better defender scorer than LBJ ...LBJ is better passer rebounder and is bigger and stronger

I will say this ...I don't consider MJ sacred I think LBJ HAS THE POTENTIAL ...to pass MJ if he continues on his same career path and wins at least 4 titles ...
then the argument will be more vaild intil then
MJ is still better ...

[Killakobe81]

I don't think that he would blow by him as easily as you think. Lebron has shown he is capable containing Kobe and Wade.

Again, I'm not sure what makes people think Lebron has no post game. I have yet to see anyone stop him from posting them up. He just rarely has a need to because no one can hold him from taking them straight up. But when he does, he often makes people look stupid.

IMO, in a 7 game series of 1-on-1, I think out of Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and MJ, Wade and Lebron would be fighting for the 1st and 2nd spots. MJ 3rd. Kobe 4th.

You son, are not very smart ...MJ 4th you lose right there also Kobe is better than wade ...

[peskypesky]

Kobe has 3 NBA Championships.

thanks to Shaq.

[DA BULLS]

Nonconformist? :lol Listen, just because I don't sit around watching highlight clips of Jordan, and thinking that those highlights is all he was capable of doing, doesn't classify me as a nonconformist. More like a realist, and an analyst.

Be real here... MJ was ahead of his time. You think that Kobe, Lebron, or Wade (who IMO has the quickest first step ive ever seen) in the 80s against those less athletic, smaller defenders couldn't have created the same problems? Get the hell out of here. Any single one of those guys would have been averaging 30+ ppg in the 80s like Jordan did, causing the physical requirements of the guard positions to change, as well as opposing defensive tactics. There was virtually NO ONE that had the kinds of skills and athleticism that Jordan had, and no one that could find ways to slow it down without a double team, whereas the league is FULL of people that have that kind of athleticism, or even superior athleticism, as well as defenders that are somewhat capable of slowing those kinds of players down without a double team. The league has also grown considerably in defensive tactics, so teams know how to deal with such players much better than they did in the 80s.

Jordan was great. Best of all time. But he is not as far ahead of those guys as people think. Personally, I think the only clear edge he really has is a mental edge, although I think that applies more to Kobe and Wade. I feel its arguable that Lebron may actually have an even better mental approach to the game than Jordan. Only time will tell though. I also feel that Kobe has better shooting abilities, and Wade is a superior penetrator. I think all 4 of those guys have areas in which they are superior to the other. Only Jordan has already finished his career. These guys still have plenty of time to go.

Personally, I don't see Kobe surpassing Jordan after the chokejobs hes pulled in recent years. I just don't think he has the natural leadership skills and doesn't get a certain kind of respect that Jordan got from both his teammates and opponents. People don't like Kobe because they think he's an asshole and wannabe Jordan. People didn't like Jordan because they were scared shitless of him. I think Wade lacks the hunger to win that Kobe, Lebron, and MJ has/had. Lebron I think has the best chance, but he has to work to improve his shot and other areas of his game to help his longevity, otherwise once his athleticism goes, he may run into trouble.

how the fuck old are you..12? i saw mj play in his prime and after his prime w/ the wizards and ive watched lebron play. do you really think lebrons mental approach to the game is better than mj's?? give me a fucking break. michaels mental toughness and competitiveness are some of the things that made him so great. those series against the detroit bad boys where they would hack you and cut your feet from under you if you even dared to drive on them..michael didnt back down he didnt lose it. he fought and battled them until they finally beat detroit. he treated a fuckin practice game like it was an nba finals game. what does lebron do during practice?? run around during practice flexing his arms shooting baskets sitting down on the floor. michaels intensity, competitiveness, and mental toughness are unmatched. kobe has the same mental toughness or is really close. but lebron?? no way is he even close to either of them

[mavs>spurs2]

Stretch there were more good defenders back in MJ's time than there are now. The only good perimeter defenders that come to mind are like say Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, etc. Even Artest's defense ain't all that great. Also, Michael's 48 inch vertical is untouched in today's league, there definitely isn't "a league full of people with his kind of athleticism." Michael had probably the quickest first step I've ever seen, and I'll concede that Wade is up there with him, maybe even equal or better, but there aren't any other players in history with that kind of first step. I firmly believe that Michael could have a hay day in today's league, because while there's more of a focus on defense, there aren't actually any great perimeter defenders to carry this out. And without the handcheck rule to slow that first step, he's getting any shot he wants all day and every day.

[barbacoataco]

I don't think a lot of you saw Jordan play a lot when he was younger.

[KidCongo]

how the fuck old are you..12? i saw mj play in his prime and after his prime w/ the wizards and ive watched lebron play. do you really think lebrons mental approach to the game is better than mj's?? give me a fucking break. michaels mental toughness and competitiveness are some of the things that made him so great. those series against the detroit bad boys where they would hack you and cut your feet from under you if you even dared to drive on them..michael didnt back down he didnt lose it. he fought and battled them until they finally beat detroit. he treated a fuckin practice game like it was an nba finals game. what does lebron do during practice?? run around during practice flexing his arms shooting baskets sitting down on the floor. michaels intensity, competitiveness, and mental toughness are unmatched. kobe has the same mental toughness or is really close. but lebron?? no way is he even close to either of them

You heard it people. To get LeBron's strength and power all you gotta do is flex. Get to it. Guaranteed.

You know you don't have to hit your team-mates in practice to show your competitive fire.

[ezau]

I remember reading an article about Jordan when he slapped Longley after forgetting something in a particular play. Nope, he didn't slap him during an NBA playoff game, he did that in practice. The man is so fucking competitive it eventually rubbed on to his teammates.

People here think that Lebron is already as great as Jordan. Do you guys ever wonder that in his mid-30s and having played so many battles, Jordan was still dominant? I don't think Wade or Lebron will ever have that kind of longevity.

[Ice009]

I find it rather surprising that I have to explain Kobe's importance in each of those 3 rings to a Spur fan. They of all people should know better.

Kobe absolutely murdered the Spurs.

Why do you think he killed the Spurs you total fuckwit?

Because we had to pay more defensive attention to Shaq instead. The Spurs had to focus on Shaq so that left the second banana Kobe free to roam around and do his damage.

There is NO WAY Kobe was the best player on the team in 2000-2002. Shaq drew most of the defensive attention from the other team and that left Kobe with a lot more room to work. Kobe was the best closer on the team and that is partly due to Shaq drawing a lot of attention away from him.

[Ice009]

Yes this thread is another epic fail of Spur fan's illogical justifications to prove why Kobe is somehow not a world champion.

You're the fail for calling people out after you miserably failed.

Come on man don't make yourself look more pathetic by trying to deflect your fail away from yourself.

btw Who said Kobe is not a world champion?

[Ice009]

Kobe has 3 NBA Championships.

Lebron has 0.

How many would Lebron have with Shaq in his prime playing along side him ;). Look Kobe was great in those Championship runs, but he had a dominant Shaq next to him. Who does Lebron have that comes close to that Shaq?

[stretch]

You son, are not very smart ...MJ 4th you lose right there also Kobe is better than wade ...

You obviously missed the point. 1-on-1 pretty much ends up always getting won by the superior athlete. Both of them have incredible skills, but IMO Wade is a better athlete than Kobe. I don't think Kobe could handle Wade's first step at all. And I didn't say MJ was 4th.

[stretch]

how the fuck old are you..12? i saw mj play in his prime and after his prime w/ the wizards and ive watched lebron play. do you really think lebrons mental approach to the game is better than mj's?? give me a fucking break. michaels mental toughness and competitiveness are some of the things that made him so great. those series against the detroit bad boys where they would hack you and cut your feet from under you if you even dared to drive on them..michael didnt back down he didnt lose it. he fought and battled them until they finally beat detroit. he treated a fuckin practice game like it was an nba finals game. what does lebron do during practice?? run around during practice flexing his arms shooting baskets sitting down on the floor. michaels intensity, competitiveness, and mental toughness are unmatched. kobe has the same mental toughness or is really close. but lebron?? no way is he even close to either of them

Um, I've seen MJ as well. Also keep in mind, MJ was a hell of a ball hog early in his career. Lebron came into the league knowing the importance of being a team player. It took Jordan 7 years to learn that.

How quickly you also forget Lebron's ridiculous performance against the Pistons. The guy is a natural born leader, whether its by getting his team involved, or taking over games on his own.

You obviously have never seen the kinds of workouts that Lebron has been doing his whole career. The guy is a gym rat. Jordan didn't even start lifitng weights until around 1990. You can tell too, cuz he was a pretty small guy his first 6-7 years.

Just because you love Jordan, doesn't mean you know what the fuck you are talking about.

[stretch]

Stretch there were more good defenders back in MJ's time than there are now. The only good perimeter defenders that come to mind are like say Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, etc. Even Artest's defense ain't all that great. Also, Michael's 48 inch vertical is untouched in today's league, there definitely isn't "a league full of people with his kind of athleticism." Michael had probably the quickest first step I've ever seen, and I'll concede that Wade is up there with him, maybe even equal or better, but there aren't any other players in history with that kind of first step. I firmly believe that Michael could have a hay day in today's league, because while there's more of a focus on defense, there aren't actually any great perimeter defenders to carry this out. And without the handcheck rule to slow that first step, he's getting any shot he wants all day and every day.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

You seriously would be better off shoving a basketball up your ass than ever debating basketball again.

[stretch]

I remember reading an article about Jordan when he slapped Longley after forgetting something in a particular play. Nope, he didn't slap him during an NBA playoff game, he did that in practice. The man is so fucking competitive it eventually rubbed on to his teammates.

People here think that Lebron is already as great as Jordan. Do you guys ever wonder that in his mid-30s and having played so many battles, Jordan was still dominant? I don't think Wade or Lebron will ever have that kind of longevity.

Nobody ever said that. People just say that he has a chance to surpass Jordan's greatness. Unfortunately, all people remember are highlights of the 80s, and think that he was Jesus or something... perfect in every way, when he wasnt. he had his flaws too. people talk about him being such a great defender, always taking the opponents best player, when truth be told, that honor more often than not went to pippen for the first 3 quarters. and if it was a close 4th, then Jordan would take the opponents best player. which is exactly what Lebron and Kobe do now.

he was a terrible 3pt shooter for quite some time in the league. he was also a poor leader for his early years. yes, he had a ridiculous will to win, but that doesn't instantly make you a good leader.

and what reasoning do you have for not believing that Lebron or Wade will last as long as Jordan? i would love to hear some backing on that point, because so many people here have been saying it, but with no reasoning behind it.

[DA BULLS]

Um, I've seen MJ as well. Also keep in mind, MJ was a hell of a ball hog early in his career. Lebron came into the league knowing the importance of being a team player. It took Jordan 7 years to learn that.

How quickly you also forget Lebron's ridiculous performance against the Pistons. The guy is a natural born leader, whether its by getting his team involved, or taking over games on his own.

You obviously have never seen the kinds of workouts that Lebron has been doing his whole career. The guy is a gym rat. Jordan didn't even start lifitng weights until around 1990. You can tell too, cuz he was a pretty small guy his first 6-7 years.

Just because you love Jordan, doesn't mean you know what the fuck you are talking about.

i agree w/ u on that he was a ball hog the first couple of years..bc to some degree he had too. if they wanted to have any chance at the playoffs he had to score, be the distributor, do everything. and i never said lebron isnt great or isnt a gym rat. i saw his performance in detroit..he played great in that game..and i dnt have to see any of his workouts just by looking at the guy i know he probably works out religiously. my only argument was YOU saying he had the same mental toughness as mj..which only proved your ignorance.. as i said his mental toughness is not even close to kobes or jordans.

[DA BULLS]

Nobody ever said that. People just say that he has a chance to surpass Jordan's greatness. Unfortunately, all people remember are highlights of the 80s, and think that he was Jesus or something... perfect in every way, when he wasnt. he had his flaws too. people talk about him being such a great defender, always taking the opponents best player, when truth be told, that honor more often than not went to pippen for the first 3 quarters. and if it was a close 4th, then Jordan would take the opponents best player. which is exactly what Lebron and Kobe do now.

he was a terrible 3pt shooter for quite some time in the league. he was also a poor leader for his early years. yes, he had a ridiculous will to win, but that doesn't instantly make you a good leader.

and what reasoning do you have for not believing that Lebron or Wade will last as long as Jordan? i would love to hear some backing on that point, because so many people here have been saying it, but with no reasoning behind it.

dnt know about lebron..but wade..no chance he last as long as jordan he throws his body around to much. his style of play..much like iversons is gonna hurt him in the end. he's fearless when he plays which is admirable..but his body cant take that kind of abuse on a nightly basis. look at the amount of games he has played the last three seasons 51, 51, 79

[stretch]

i agree w/ u on that he was a ball hog the first couple of years..bc to some degree he had too. if they wanted to have any chance at the playoffs he had to score, be the distributor, do everything. and i never said lebron isnt great or isnt a gym rat. i saw his performance in detroit..he played great in that game..and i dnt have to see any of his workouts just by looking at the guy i know he probably works out religiously. my only argument was YOU saying he had the same mental toughness as mj..which only proved your ignorance.. as i said his mental toughness is not even close to kobes or jordans.

I said mental approach. And I don't see anything that shows he isn't mentally tough. He's not the one choking series away like Kobe. He was the one taking shitty teams and finding ways to beat teams in the playoffs that they had no business playing in the first place. And he isn't the one that is having to learn how to utilize his team and figuring ways to boost their confidence. It took a long time for Jordan to learn that, and Kobe still hasn't fully learned it.

Only time will tell to see if he is as mentally strong as MJ, but signs show he is capable of even surpassing Jordan's mental approach.

[stretch]

dnt know about lebron..but wade..no chance he last as long as jordan he throws his body around to much. his style of play..much like iversons is gonna hurt him in the end. he's fearless when he plays which is admirable..but his body cant take that kind of abuse on a nightly basis. look at the amount of games he has played the last three seasons 51, 51, 79

I can understand Wade because of the injuries he played with. But Jordan played with a pretty wreckless abandon as well, and look how long he lasted. I think Lebron will be around for a long time.

[Ghazi]

Winning a title this year is critical for Lebron's legacy!

[dickface]

this is fucking stupid. worse than the Kobe/MJ comparison.

MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe > LeBron

[Ghazi]

this is fucking stupid. Worse than the kobe/mj comparison.

Mj >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kobe > lebron

nope

[DA BULLS]

I can understand Wade because of the injuries he played with. But Jordan played with a pretty wreckless abandon as well, and look how long he lasted. I think Lebron will be around for a long time.

true..but jordan developed a low past game and became a very good shooter in his 30's..he didnt have to take it to the basket as much. if wade can develope into a great shooter than im sure he'll be fine. the only knock on him tho is his height. being 6'4 makes it tough

[DA BULLS]

Only time will tell to see if he is as mentally strong as MJ, but signs show he is capable of even surpassing Jordan's mental approach.[/quote]

he could one day but for now..no way.

[manufan10]

There's definitely a chance for Lebron to, one day, be better than Jordan. Right now, I don't think he is. Jordan was a great player, but can always be surpassed by someone. That someone hasn't passed Jordan yet, but time will tell.

[stretch]

true..but jordan developed a low past game and became a very good shooter in his 30's..he didnt have to take it to the basket as much. if wade can develope into a great shooter than im sure he'll be fine. the only knock on him tho is his height. being 6'4 makes it tough

I agree. I don't think Wade will last as long as Jordan, or as long as I think Lebron will.

[stretch]

he could one day but for now..no way.

and I agree completely. all ive said is that i think lebron has a better approach, and that time will tell.

[dirk4mvp]

:lol There's no way Jordan's vertical was 48, especially when a guy like Carter's isn't even that high.

[manufan10]

:lol There's no way Jordan's vertical was 48, especially when a guy like Carter's isn't even that high.


http://vertcoach.com/highest-vertical-leap.html

Michael Jordan 48"

Vince Carter 43"

Jason Richardson 46"

James White 46"

[dirk4mvp]

Yeah I've seen that. It looks like a website my little sister could put together.

[dirk4mvp]

oh well whatever it is, at least it's higher than Kobe's :smokin

[monoslyab1k]

5PDuqk_DSMw

[manufan10]

Yeah I've seen that. It looks like a website my little sister could put together.

That's the best site I could find that actually mentions it, along with other athletes. All the other stuff is just people on message boards sounding off. Oh well. :toast

[DA BULLS]

oh well whatever it is, at least it's higher than Kobe's :smokin

go look up some videos on youtube of his early years. theres one game against ny where he gets his damn mouth right at the rim. i used to think vc vertical was higher too..but after i saw that dunk i dnt doubt his was a 48

[DA BULLS]

There's definitely a chance for Lebron to, one day, be better than Jordan. Right now, I don't think he is. Jordan was a great player, but can always be surpassed by someone. That someone hasn't passed Jordan yet, but time will tell.


this is what mj said when discussing the greatest player debate: i believe greatness is an evolutionary process that changes and evovles ere to era. w/out julius erving, david thompson, and elgin baylor there would never have been a michael jordan. i evolved from them. they presented a challenge the example i could improve upon. if i had been born on an island. learned the game by myself and developed into the player i became w/out ever seeing another example, then yes, i would except being called the greatest. but i have used all the great players that came before me to improve my skills. so i cant be the greatest.its not fair to diminsh them in that way. the evolutionary process never ends. somebody is going to improve upon my game. we have seen diff. aspects of greatness in diff. bodies. now we have seen many of those same aspects in one body. in certain down the road even more greatness will be seen in a single player. it used to be that great offensive players never played great defense. there was a driving force in me to prove the notion wrong. i proved a great offensive player can play great defense. but someone will come along who plays even better offense adn defense than me. the nature of evolution is to continue. we have all passed something along through our performance and all that has been written. somewhere there is a little kid working to enhance what we've done. it may take awhile but someone will come along who approaches the game the way i did. he wont skip steps. he wont be afraid. he will learn from my example, just as i learned from others. he will master the fundamentals. maybe he will take off from the free throw line and do a 360 in midair. why not? no one thought there would be 6'9 pont guard or a 7'7 center. evolution knows no bounds. unless they changed the height of the basket or otherwise alter the dimensions of the game there will be a player much greater than me

[mavs>spurs2]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

You seriously would be better off shoving a basketball up your ass than ever debating basketball again.

:lol good points

[Metheny]

Who is/was better at this stage of his career, LeBron James or Michael Jordan?

We realize we tread on sacred ground here. Nobody has matched Jordan for an entire career, by almost any measure. But it's important to note that the legend of MJ owes as much to his six NBA titles as to his highlight reels, and that he didn't earn one until his seventh season in the league.

So we start at the beginning, with the most-self-serving-yet-most-repeated-on-talk-radio statistical analysis in the history of sports, the Terry Bradshaw Ring Test. By that measure, which states that a superstar's worth is solely defined by how many pro championships he's won, neither LBJ nor MJ was very good through the sixth season of their respective careers. Certainly they're not Kobe Bryant (three titles) or Tim Duncan (two). Hell, they're not even Beno Udrih (two).

After that, things grow murkier, with arguments either way. Check out this comparison of their first six seasons, courtesy of basketball-reference.com:
LEBRON JAMES VS. MICHAEL JORDAN: FIRST SIX SEASONS

A comparison of LeBron James and Michael Jordan across the first six seasons of their careers. These numbers are per 36 minutes.
Player FG% 3FG% FT% ORB DRB REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
James .471 .328 .738 1.1 5.1 6.2 5.9 1.6 0.8 2.9 1.8 24.4
Jordan .516 .282 .848 1.7 4.1 5.8 5.5 2.6 1.0 3.0 2.9 30.3

Jordan comes out as a better scorer and defender (at least by the measure of steals), and James a better rebounder, passer and, surprisingly, outside shooter (at least from outside the 3-point line). Going deeper into Basketball Reference's numbers using Dean Oliver's win-shares metric, the argument grows still more complex:

JORDAN VS. JAMES WIN SHARES

A next-level look at the relative value of MJ and LeBron over their first six seasons.
Player Name OWS DWS WS
LeBron James 55.6 27.8 83.4
Michael Jordan 65.4 23.8 89.2

Overall, Jordan has accumulated more win shares, thanks largely to his edge in point production. But it turns out that, despite an early reputation as a naïf learning to play D, James has been a better defensive "winner." A curiosity in all this is one stat sometimes overlooked in Jordan career retrospectives: durability. Through six seasons, MJ played 50 fewer games than LBJ. Almost all of that owed to a foot injury in Jordan's second year, but LBJ's minutes per game are higher for most of his early years:
LEBRON JAMES' FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES

A look at The King's time on the floor across his first six seasons.
Year Games Games Started MPG
2003-04 79 79 39.5
2004-05 80 80 42.4
2005-06 79 79 42.5
2006-07 78 78 40.9
2007-08 75 74 40.4
2008-09 81 81 37.7
MICHAEL JORDAN'S FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES

MJ's time logged during his first six years in the league.
Year Games Games Started MPG
1984-85 82 82 38.3
1985-86 18 7 25.1
1986-87 82 82 40.0
1987-88 81 81 40.2
1988-89 75 74 40.4
1989-90 82 82 39.0

A look back at Sam Smith's "The Jordan Rules" shows that MJ believed he wore down late in seasons and wanted to add strength to his post-up game. So he began seriously lifting weights, for the first time, in his seventh year, 1990-91, coinciding with his first title. Even though James was two years younger than MJ was when each entered the league, he grew up in a more fitness-crazed era, in a football-crazed state, where serious weight workouts were part of a high school athlete's routine. James has accelerated his training as a pro, adding more mass and explosiveness to his already unfair physique.

And therein may be the final argument for LBJ, at least so far. Michael struck fear into opponents -- a fear of embarrassment. His incredible quickness and agility could land you on the wrong end of a poster, sure. But tougher to take was his ruthless competitiveness, which he used to humiliate opponents (and if the Rodney McCray stories are true, even teammates).

James inspires a different fear, the kind in which a player is scared for his own physical well-being. His combination of speed, bulk and explosiveness hasn't been seen since, well, ever. The Pistons beat up the young Michael Jordan in the playoffs. If you were quick enough to get in front of him, you didn't fear taking a charge. But who, seriously, would stand in the way of James at full tilt on a breakaway dunk?

Six seasons into his career, James inspires a kind of awe that not even early MJ possessed -- that of a man playing a different sport than everybody else, something akin to Lawrence Taylor or Jim Brown on a football field.

Of course, beginning with his seventh season, Jordan built his own aura with his six titles. And that aura is unlikely to be surpassed as a complete body of work. Unless, of course, LeBron wins a ring this year and hauls in five more.

Maybe there is something to that Bradshaw stat.


Luke Cyphers is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.


I love lebron but please have some respect for the GOAT oops sorry i mean the greatest athlete of all time period in his repectable sport. This man has no rival its clear hes the greatest.