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101A
05-21-2009, 08:59 AM
From Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794_Page2.html)

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. It is astounding to me that the Constitution is now so malleable that no one questions whether it is even possible for the federal government to enact and enforce such an edict.

2. I currently give my employees two weeks of vacation a year - which increases to three after five years with the company (I have 30 employees). In ten years, when most of my current crop of employees are gone, will I still get credit for doing that, good will and loyalty from my employees - or will my congressman (and yes, I realize the act calls for 50+ only - but that will come down eventually)?


Alan Grayson to introduce Paid Vacation Act



Rep. Alan Grayson (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19695.html) was standing in the middle of Disney World when it hit him: What Americans really need is a week of paid vacation.

So on Thursday, the Florida Democrat will introduce the Paid Vacation (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794.html#) Act — legislation that would be the first to make paid vacation (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794.html#) time a requirement under federal law.

The bill would require companies with more than 100 employees to offer a week of paid vacation for both full-time and part-time employees after they’ve put in a year on the job. Three years after the effective date of the law, those same companies would be required to provide two weeks of paid vacation, and companies with 50 or more employees would have to provide one week.

The idea: More vacation will stimulate the economy (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17901.html) through fewer sick days, better productivity and happier employees.

“There’s a reason why Disney World is the happiest place on Earth: The people who go there are on vacation,” said Grayson, a freshman who counts Orlando as part of his home district. “Honestly, as much as I appreciate this job and as much as I enjoy it, the best days of my life are and always have been the days I’m on vacation.”

According to the Center for Economic and Policy Research, 28 million Americans — or about a quarter of the work force — don’t get any paid vacation. The center says that a lack of vacation causes stress and workplace burnout and that those evil twins cost the economy more than $300 billion each year.

One more if-you’re-reading-this-then-you’re-probably-not-on-vacation fact: The United States is dead last among 21 industrial countries when it comes to mandatory R&R.

France currently requires employers to provide 30 days of paid leave.

Not surprisingly, some in the travel (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794.html#) industry are salivating over Grayson’s bill; Grayson spokesman Todd Jurkowski said the U.S. Tour Operators Association and the Adventure Travel Trade Association are both on board. Other tourism and labor groups are expected to sign on in the coming days.


The U.S. Travel Association has not yet endorsed the measure, but Senior Vice President Geoff Freeman says Congress does need to consider new ways to stimulate the vacation industry and travel economy.

So far, no group has come out in opposition of the bill. Nor has anyone announced opposition to roller coaster rides, cookouts on the beach or salt-water taffy on the boardwalk.


But with many Americans out of work and an economy in shambles, some say this may not be the best time to propose more time away from the office, especially on the boss’s dime.

The Society for Human Resource Management issued a statement Wednesday warning that “a one-size-fits-all, government-imposed mandate is not the answer.”

Because of the 50- and 100-employee thresholds, most small businesses wouldn’t be directly affected by the bill immediately. But the National Small Business Association warned of indirect consequences; companies might artificially hold their hiring at the 50-to-100-employee level to avoid the costs of paid vacation time.

The bill also could have a negative impact on manufacturers (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19852.html) already bracing for higher costs that could be associated with the climate-change legislation working its way through the House.

One place where the bill wouldn’t have much of an effect: Capitol Hill.

Congressional staffers already get paid vacation, even if they don’t actually have time to take it. And members can take time off during recesses (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7162.html)— as they will next week — albeit not as much as they once did.

While members once had much of the summer off, Congress will be in session this year virtually all of June and July. That leaves August, and Sen. Lisa Murkowski (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17606.html) (R-Alaska) says that’s not really enough time to unwind.

“I’m off in the state for a full month catching up on all the things I’ve missed throughout the year, but you don’t have time for yourself,” she said. “You don’t have much time for your family. And after a while, you do start to get just tired.”

Grayson’s bill is part of a larger move by Democrats to improve employee and workplace standards. Earlier this month, Democrats introduced a bill that would make employers give mandatory sick time.

“The committee is looking at a number of proposals to help workers balance family responsibilities and work duties,” said House Education and Labor Committee spokesman Aaron Albright. “The fact is the United States is behind the rest of the world in ensuring that workplaces have paid leave policies. These policies not only benefit workers but also help the employers’ bottom line because of lower turnover and better job satisfaction.”

But in the workaholic world of Washington, not everyone is so impressed with the restorative — or stimulative — powers of time unplugged.

Asked Tuesday what he’d do with an extra week of paid vacation, Sen. Chuck Grassley (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20740.html) (R-Iowa) said: “I’d keep the cash and spend the week working on the farm, with my BlackBerry and office files.

Wild Cobra
05-21-2009, 10:03 AM
Don't you just love authoritarianism?

clambake
05-21-2009, 10:05 AM
From Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794_Page2.html)

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. It is astounding to me that the Constitution is now so malleable that no one questions whether it is even possible for the federal government to enact and enforce such an edict.

2. I currently give my employees two weeks of vacation a year - which increases to three after five years with the company (I have 30 employees). In ten years, when most of my current crop of employees are gone, will I still get credit for doing that, good will and loyalty from my employees - or will my congressman (and yes, I realize the act calls for 50+ only - but that will come down eventually)?

:toast same here.....and i provide them 5 sick days.

paid vacation is a time honored tradition based on the owners character and ability to select hardworking, loyal staff.

you get it if you earn it.

LnGrrrR
05-21-2009, 10:37 AM
Seems like a stupid bill to me.

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 10:40 AM
From Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22794_Page2.html)

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. It is astounding to me that the Constitution is now so malleable that no one questions whether it is even possible for the federal government to enact and enforce such an edict.

2. I currently give my employees two weeks of vacation a year - which increases to three after five years with the company (I have 30 employees). In ten years, when most of my current crop of employees are gone, will I still get credit for doing that, good will and loyalty from my employees - or will my congressman (and yes, I realize the act calls for 50+ only - but that will come down eventually)?

Right. Why must Uncle Sam step in to order what most employers already offer? And I do share your angst/frustration/resignation about what the Constitution has become.

Blake
05-21-2009, 10:54 AM
Right. Why must Uncle Sam step in to order what most employers already offer?

same reason Uncle Sam had to step in with a minimum wage law.

There are a lot of large corporations that are giving part timers full time hours but not allowing them any benefits that go with it.

I think it's a fine idea.

Wild Cobra
05-21-2009, 10:57 AM
same reason Uncle Sam had to step in with a minimum wage law.

There are a lot of large corporations that are giving part timers full time hours but not allowing them any benefits that go with it.

I think it's a fine idea.
I agree it would be nice if everyone had benefits. However, you are advocating authoritarianism and socialism. That is anti-American!

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 11:01 AM
same reason Uncle Sam had to step in with a minimum wage law.



To lead to yet higher union wages to pay off political supporters? To make cheaper, non-white labor more expensive and limit the employment opportunities for younger, non-white workers? Where's the majority of people who work for the minimum wage their entire working life?




There are a lot of large corporations that are giving part timers full time hours but not allowing them any benefits that go with it.

I think it's a fine idea.

Great, so then there will be fewer employment opportunities with those evil large corporations.

Blake
05-21-2009, 11:39 AM
I agree it would be nice if everyone had benefits. However, you are advocating authoritarianism and socialism. That is anti-American!

I'm advocating equal benefits for equal work.

You can label it however you want.

ploto
05-21-2009, 11:42 AM
I never quite got why you are supposed to get paid for not working.

ChumpDumper
05-21-2009, 11:55 AM
will I still get credit for doing thatYou'll get credit for the second week.

Viva Las Espuelas
05-21-2009, 11:59 AM
I never quite got why you are supposed to get paid for not working.
:lmao:rollin:lmao:rollin
didn't you vote for obama?

Blake
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
To lead to yet higher union wages to pay off political supporters? To make cheaper, non-white labor more expensive and limit the employment opportunities for younger, non-white workers? Where's the majority of people who work for the minimum wage their entire working life?

I'm not saying I disagree with any of that and it's pretty clear that current minimum wage laws are not working, whatever reasons we can all come up with.

I threw out minimum wage as an example of a need to introduce fair labor standards.


Great, so then there will be fewer employment opportunities with those evil large corporations.

like what? cashiers or janitors? how will Walmart be able to scrap those jobs? It seems like they hardly have any right now as it is.

a part timer that puts in 2000+ work hours during the year should get the same vacation time as an established full time employee. I'm not sure how anyone can think different.

even the city of San Antonio was screwing over part timers and it took a somewhat newly formed union for city workers to raise a stink about it before they changed things.

If you want to argue that someone who works 1000 hours during the year shoudl get half that vac time, I would agree.

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 12:15 PM
If you expect to increase the cost of labor, then expect less of it to be hired, and expect the cost of whatever the labor that businesses and governments can't shed to be passed along to the consumer and the taxpayer. And while we like to think of the evil rich capitalists sitting in their mansions having to give up a crumb, it's ultimately the rest of us who pay for these dogooder government incursions into the labor markets.

TDMVPDPOY
05-21-2009, 12:23 PM
lol we get 4 weeks down here for annual leave....full-time perm only...

but full time perm is dieing down here, a majority of ppl are on contract.....

Blake
05-21-2009, 12:28 PM
If you expect to increase the cost of labor, then expect less of it to be hired, and expect the cost of whatever the labor that businesses and governments can't shed to be passed along to the consumer and the taxpayer. And while we like to think of the evil rich capitalists sitting in their mansions having to give up a crumb, it's ultimately the rest of us who pay for these dogooder government incursions into the labor markets.

yeah, I might expect the price of goods to go up a bit, but I wouldn't expect less of it to be hired. I can't see any of the Waltons jumping in a checkstand to avoid giving an employee a week's vacation.

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 12:34 PM
Of course, no company has ever asked for fewer employees to produce the same as a larger portion before.

Not everyone works for a Fortune 500 company in this country with some wealthy family at the helm. Increasing the cost of employment for companies with simply more than 100 employees is a recipe for yet more job losses, especially in this economic environment.

spurs_fan_in_exile
05-21-2009, 01:46 PM
Disney World is the happiest place on earth because it's full of people doing well enough that they can afford to go to Disney World. Giving a week off to someone just making ends meet won't give them more money to spend during that time. Someone making minimum wage would suddenly have all the time they could want to sit around their house. It would be like taking a ride in an unemployment simulator.

Yonivore
05-21-2009, 01:48 PM
Disney World is the happiest place on earth because it's full of people doing well enough that they can afford to go to Disney World. Giving a week off to someone just making ends meet won't give them more money to spend during that time. Someone making minimum wage would suddenly have all the time they could want to sit around their house. It would be like taking a ride in an unemployment simulator.
Careful...talk like that will cause them to change the definition of "paid" vacation. No longer will it mean you continue to receive a salary but, also, you'll receive Obama bucks to go on a dream vacation...all paid for by, productive people.

LnGrrrR
05-21-2009, 02:38 PM
Careful...talk like that will cause them to change the definition of "paid" vacation. No longer will it mean you continue to receive a salary but, also, you'll receive Obama bucks to go on a dream vacation...all paid for by, productive people.

As much as I disagree with Yoni on many things, I could theoretically see a future shifting of the goalposts such as this.

Blake
05-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Of course, no company has ever asked for fewer employees to produce the same as a larger portion before.

Not everyone works for a Fortune 500 company in this country with some wealthy family at the helm. Increasing the cost of employment for companies with simply more than 100 employees is a recipe for yet more job losses, especially in this economic environment.

we are talking about 5 days paid leave for the following year.

I've worked retail before. It's not hard at all to adjust schedules in a 7 day work week to pick up the slack.

The amount of cost you are talking about when an employee takes a day off is really very little in the grand scheme of things.

Blake
05-21-2009, 03:02 PM
Disney World is the happiest place on earth because it's full of people doing well enough that they can afford to go to Disney World. Giving a week off to someone just making ends meet won't give them more money to spend during that time. Someone making minimum wage would suddenly have all the time they could want to sit around their house. It would be like taking a ride in an unemployment simulator.

.....because your average minimum wage earner would much rather be at work than sit around relaxing at home.

Yonivore
05-21-2009, 03:04 PM
we are talking about 5 days paid leave for the following year.

I've worked retail before. It's not hard at all to adjust schedules in a 7 day work week to pick up the slack.

The amount of cost you are talking about when an employee takes a day off is really very little in the grand scheme of things.
You've never been an employer, I see.

Blake
05-21-2009, 03:04 PM
Careful...talk like that will cause them to change the definition of "paid" vacation. No longer will it mean you continue to receive a salary but, also, you'll receive Obama bucks to go on a dream vacation...all paid for by, productive people.

I think all that is being asked is that productive people that are considered part time get some vacation time.

Nice stretch.

Yonivore
05-21-2009, 03:06 PM
I think all that is being asked is that productive people that are considered part time get some vacation time.

Nice stretch.
In a world where we buy needles for heroin addicts and pay mortgages for dead beats...it's not such a stretch at all.

Blake
05-21-2009, 03:07 PM
You've never been an employer, I see.

Please share what business you own, how many full time employees you have as well as part time employees you have and give me a breakdown of exactly how much money you will lose by having some of those employees get a week off of work the following year after getting hired.

Blake
05-21-2009, 03:08 PM
In a world where we buy needles for heroin addicts and pay mortgages for dead beats...it's not such a stretch at all.

Is Obama giving a tax credit for first time heroin buyers?

I wasn't aware.

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 03:34 PM
we are talking about 5 days paid leave for the following year.

I've worked retail before. It's not hard at all to adjust schedules in a 7 day work week to pick up the slack.

The amount of cost you are talking about when an employee takes a day off is really very little in the grand scheme of things.

If paid time off costs so little, then you are being a grinch.

A little here, a little there, and soon enough you have a big number. Unless, of course, you suppose that a bunch of lawyers in DC know how to run a business.

If the cost is little, then the value of that employee is little to a business (which is the case in many retail shops) and you just raised the cost of that employee. So in the end we end up with fewer employees. But at least the unemployed will have all the unpaid leave they want.

Blake
05-21-2009, 03:44 PM
If paid time off costs so little, then you are being a grinch.

I agree. There are a bunch of grinches in America.


A little here, a little there, and soon enough you have a big number. Unless, of course, you suppose that a bunch of lawyers in DC know how to run a business.

If the cost is little, then the value of that employee is little to a business (which is the case in many retail shops) and you just raised the cost of that employee. So in the end we end up with fewer employees. But at least the unemployed will have all the unpaid leave they want.

out of 100 employees, I'd like to know how many you think are part timers that stay longer than a year.

Some exact numbers would be nice so we can work with something other than your own business theories.

Marcus Bryant
05-21-2009, 03:53 PM
I agree. There are a bunch of grinches in America.



out of 100 employees, I'd like to know how many you think are part timers that stay longer than a year.

Some exact numbers would be nice so we can work with something other than your own business theories.


So you believe the more an employer pays for an employee, which said employer cannot pass along in the price of its products and/or services, will not have a negative impact on amount of employees that employer maintains?

I guess my argument is a 'theory' if you believe that not to be the case.

How about you provide your own #s to prove that rising costs of production or in overhead, which can't be passed along, especially in businesses which sell goods into highly competitive markets, to the consumer do not result in less of those inputs being purchased?

TheProfessor
05-21-2009, 04:25 PM
How European.

Blake
05-21-2009, 04:36 PM
So you believe the more an employer pays for an employee, which said employer cannot pass along in the price of its products and/or services, will not have a negative impact on amount of employees that employer maintains?

I guess my argument is a 'theory' if you believe that not to be the case.

where are you getting the assumption that the employer would not be able to pass along the price of it's products to the consumer? What business are you talking about?

I'm saying the negative impact is not as much as you or others are making it out to be.


How about you provide your own #s to prove that rising costs of production or in overhead, which can't be passed along, especially in businesses which sell goods into highly competitive markets, to the consumer do not result in less of those inputs being purchased?

why are you sidestepping the issue? This is about part timers getting a one week vacation after being employed after a year.

I worked at HEB years back as a service director and I can tell you what I think the scenario there would be:

I had about 60 total checkers and carry-outs/baggers I had to schedule for, but I can make it an even 100.

Basing rough % on the 60: out of the 100, probably 10 of those might be full time checkers with vacation and benefits.

Out of the other 90, maybe 75 might last a full year. Out of that 75, maybe 20 of those would work close to 2000 hours during the year.

At the time, checkers were making $7 an hour, after a year maybe $7.25, so let's say they are making $8 per hour right now.

$8 x 40 x 20 = $6400 in "losses".

(Frankly, the entire service department for HEB is nothing but a "loss" since it generates no direct revenue, but that's neither here nor there).

The hours that those part timers take off are easily made up by scheduling the other part timers that work roughly 20 hours a week a few more hours.

so all you really are out is $6400.........hell, make it $10,000 for the year for the other part timers that still manage to accumulate some vacation time.

In the long run that's nothing for the larger stores that do near a million in sales per week. If you like, you can even freeze the starting wages for several years (as HEB has done before) to help defray these initial costs.

coyotes_geek
05-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Stupid idea. Don't get vacation? Go work somewhere that does.

Wild Cobra
05-22-2009, 12:12 AM
Stupid idea. Don't get vacation? Go work somewhere that does.
Yep, that's how supply and demand is suppose to work. When they cannot find employees to work for what they offer, they will have to offer more.

If you don't like the facts, then better yourself for a better job!

bobbybob0
05-22-2009, 06:49 AM
I'm French and I thoroughly enjoy my 7 weeks of paid vacations !

:toast


I work for a big corporation in a European division. Our HQ is in Paris and we have sales guys all over Europe from UK to Czech Republic and Spain to Sweden.

Nobody in this team is has as much vacation as the people located in Paris but we are all more or less as productive as each other and we do the job as good as anybody.

Typical work shift for a French employee will be much lower than one of UK employee for instance but business executives will work much longer (during their limited number of work days). My UK counterparts are on a steady 9 to 5 shift, I'm more on a 9 to 8 basis.

Yonivore
05-22-2009, 07:01 AM
Blake, looks like France is where you need to be.

FaithInOne
05-22-2009, 08:40 AM
but but but but but Obama told me for 10 minutes yesterday he makes sweet sweet love to the constitution on a daily basis and has the utmost respect blah blah blah blah

Fuck you big government lovers.

The only joy I have left is knowing I will still be able to beat you in this clusterfuck of a system you have placed on us all.

Blake
05-22-2009, 09:29 AM
Blake, looks like France is where you need to be.

you're not really just right of Attila the Hun, are you.....

Still waiting for you to show exactly how forcing one week's paid vacation will send companies spiraling out of control into bankruptcy.

Spurminator
05-22-2009, 09:56 AM
Since we're throwing money around these days, why not give tax credits to small companies for giving these workers paid vacations?