The Horror of Waterboarding

[SnakeBoy]

Warning: This video depicts Mancow being horribly tortured and may be disturbing to some viewers.

qUkj9pjx3H0

[ChumpDumper]

He certainly changed his opinion of whether it's torture or not.

[01.20.09]

He even told Sean Hannity, who called ManCow to say it was still not torture, that it is torture but I don't think Sean will go under to prove his point.

[DarrinS]

They did it wrong. First, they didn't cover his mouth with the cloth. Second, they don't continuously pour water -- that actually COULD drown you.

[LnGrrrR]

They did it wrong. First, they didn't cover his mouth with the cloth. Second, they don't continuously pour water -- that actually COULD drown you.

Ah... so you were there for each waterboarding? :)

Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if some overzealous interrogation experts brought the subjects this close to drowning once or twice.

[JoeChalupa]

Ah... so you were there for each waterboarding? :)

Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if some overzealous interrogation experts brought the subjects this close to drowning once or twice.

Isn't that the purpose of torture? To bring the fear of death if they don't spit out what they know?

[DarrinS]

Ah... so you were there for each waterboarding? :)

Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if some overzealous interrogation experts brought the subjects this close to drowning once or twice.



Yeah, and Dick Cheney probably conducted them personally.

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah, and Dick Cheney probably conducted them personally.

I love this response. Are you going to actually be a man an answer the question, or continue to show that when a point is made against you, "righties" on this board respond with cynicism and snide retorts that have nothing to do with the reality of the matter? Show some maturity and actually admit you're wrong here, instead of just showing it to the rest of us through your complete lack of ability to have a debate in a rational manner.

[DarrinS]

I love this response. Are you going to actually be a man an answer the question, or continue to show that when a point is made against you, "righties" on this board respond with cynicism and snide retorts that have nothing to do with the reality of the matter? Show some maturity and actually admit you're wrong here, instead of just showing it to the rest of us through your complete lack of ability to have a debate in a rational manner.


America is evil and we should all be deeply ashamed.

There, I spewed forth the typical response of the left.

Happy?

[Homeland Security]

What a wimp. He could only hold up for two seconds? That doesn't mean it's torture; it means he is a sissy girl.

Oh no, a fat idiot DJ couldn't handle it; it must be torture! What's next, is running a mile torture? Is doing a pushup torture? Getting a flu shot?

All of you suck and are worse than women.

[FaithInOne]

Oh no, a fat idiot DJ couldn't handle it; it must be torture! What's next, is running a mile torture? Is doing a pushup torture?

All of you suck and are worse than women.


:rollin:rollin:toast

[FaithInOne]

I love this response. Are you going to actually be a man an answer the question, or continue to show that when a point is made against you, "righties" on this board respond with cynicism and snide retorts that have nothing to do with the reality of the matter? Show some maturity and actually admit you're wrong here, instead of just showing it to the rest of us through your complete lack of ability to have a debate in a rational manner.

Should he have made up an imaginary scenario and treated it as reality to parallel what he was previously presented?

[koriwhat]

I love this response. Are you going to actually be a man an answer the question, or continue to show that when a point is made against you, "righties" on this board respond with cynicism and snide retorts that have nothing to do with the reality of the matter? Show some maturity and actually admit you're wrong here, instead of just showing it to the rest of us through your complete lack of ability to have a debate in a rational manner.

fuck cheney and all you "lefties"

[koriwhat]

What's next, is running a mile torture?

it is, for you.

[Cry Havoc]

fuck cheney and all you "lefties"

I'm not a "lefty". I'm a moderate. But good on you for thinking so.


America is evil and we should all be deeply ashamed.

There, I spewed forth the typical response of the left.

Happy?

I'd be happy if it actually bothered you that people have been tortured and raped in the name of your freedom. But apparently Obama is such a horrible president that destroying his credibility takes precedence. By all means, prove me wrong. I don't WANT to think that a large number of people on this board enjoy this situation. Believe me, that's the last thing I want.


Should he have made up an imaginary scenario and treated it as reality to parallel what he was previously presented?

What? Please make sense. He commented on the video, suggesting that the person was doing it wrong. When someone offered a very rational rebuttal, he responded with biting sarcasm that had absolutely nothing to do with the situation and offered no actual response. I was just hoping he would actually respond to the comment.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm a moderate conservative progressive thinking uneducated simple man.

[LnGrrrR]

America is evil and we should all be deeply ashamed.

There, I spewed forth the typical response of the left.

Happy?

America is great and never does anything wrong and if you think America does something wrong, you're a traitor and a fascist.

There, I spewed forth the typical response of the Right.

[DarrinS]

America is great and never does anything wrong and if you think America does something wrong, you're a traitor and a fascist.

There, I spewed forth the typical response of the Right.


Just because I don't obsess about waterboarding and Abu Ghraib doesn't mean I think our country doesn't have some bad apples. I just don't characterize the entire US military by those few bad apples.

[LnGrrrR]

Just because I don't obsess about waterboarding and Abu Ghraib doesn't mean I think our country doesn't have some bad apples. I just don't characterize the entire US military by those few bad apples.

And who did on this board hm DarrinS? Show me who said that the entire military was bad.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

great. so testing this on a manly man, a man of endurance, of great stamina, of high will, of physical greatness. of such fortitude, of such high mental toughness............................ on a guy named mancow?

yeah. i'll take his word for it. hell if you walk a dog in front of a guy that was once attacked by a dog i'm sure he'll call it torture. isn't there a pizza delivery guy we can test this on. or maybe a car salesmen? :rolleyes

[Cry Havoc]

Just because I don't obsess about waterboarding and Abu Ghraib doesn't mean I think our country doesn't have some bad apples. I just don't characterize the entire US military by those few bad apples.

I think the armed forces as a whole represent one of the finest groups of people in our country. You know, just FYI.

[ChumpDumper]

great. so testing this on a manly man, a man of endurance, of great stamina, of high will, of physical greatness. of such fortitude, of such high mental toughness............................ on a guy named mancow?

yeah. i'll take his word for it. hell if you walk a dog in front of a guy that was once attacked by a dog i'm sure he'll call it torture. isn't there a pizza delivery guy we can test this on. or maybe a car salesmen? :rolleyesHow about you?

[ChumpDumper]

They did it wrong. First, they didn't cover his mouth with the cloth. Second, they don't continuously pour water -- that actually COULD drown you.I don't think four seconds could really count as "continually."

Good to know you are the expert on torture methods, though -- how often have you waterboarded others and been waterboarded yourself?

[SnakeBoy]

I don't think four seconds could really count as "continually."


I think 4 seconds only counts as pussy. I've always thought waterboarding was a form of torture, not on the level of things like pulling out fingernails, but still a form of torture. With that said, seriously all this video proves is that mancow is one big pussy.

[ChumpDumper]

How long did you last when you were waterboarded?

[jman3000]

Having water flowing up/down your nose like that hurts like a bitch. You feel this really painful sting that centers around your sinus cavity and just radiates around your entire head.

If you try to gasp for air it just gets worse because the water has already filled up the back of your throat via your nose and you'll just cough up water.

I'd honestly think that an application of more than 8 or so seconds would be completely unbearable because the more water that is applied, the more intense the sensation becomes.

[SnakeBoy]

How long did you last when you were waterboarded?

Never been, but I sure as shit would last more than 4 seconds. In fact, I'd bet that money that you would last more than 4 seconds and I don't even know you. Along with being an idiot Mancow proved he is a pussy, are you really going to debate that?

[jman3000]

I've never been water boarded... but I have had water poured on my face while I was in a horizontal position. pretty much the same thing.

I would consider it torture. Although I can see why many would think it's not.

[SnakeBoy]

Having water flowing up/down your nose like that hurts like a bitch. You feel this really painful sting that centers around your sinus cavity and just radiates around your entire head.


Yeah it sucks but it helps alot with allergies.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Rn-e5IbZPOs/SZlaKfpZ2tI/AAAAAAAABD4/Ecs1cUolq6A/s400/netipot.jpg

[jman3000]

there's a vast difference between gently pouring small quantities in a controlled manner and being pinned down while having water forcefully poured over your nose.

don't be an idiot.

that's like saying having a doctor put a thermometer up your ass is tantamount to being ass raped by some dude with a giant wang.

[Cry Havoc]

Never been, but I sure as shit would last more than 4 seconds. In fact, I'd bet that money that you would last more than 4 seconds and I don't even know you. Along with being an idiot Mancow proved he is a pussy, are you really going to debate that?

Mr. Internet Tough Guy forum.

[ChumpDumper]

Never been, but I sure as shit would last more than 4 seconds. In fact, I'd bet that money that you would last more than 4 seconds and I don't even know you. Along with being an idiot Mancow proved he is a pussy, are you really going to debate that?Ok, 20 bucks to last longer than Mancow having someone waterboard you.

Put it up on YouTube.

From the three demostrations I have seen, I think different people react differently and it's not easily predicted.

[SnakeBoy]

there's a vast difference between gently pouring small quantities in a controlled manner and being pinned down while having water forcefully poured over your nose.

don't be an idiot.

that's like saying having a doctor put a thermometer up your ass is tantamount to being ass raped by some dude with a giant wang.

Relax, it was just a joke. I already said it IS a form of torture. The dude was pinching Mancow's nostrils so I thought a smart ass response to your statement was appropriate.


Mr. Internet Tough Guy forum.

C'mon, try to be at least a little honest. What Mancow experienced wasn't shit. Stating that doesn't qualify as being a "tough" guy. Do you think you could hold out longer than 4 seconds?

[SnakeBoy]

Ok, 20 bucks to last longer than Mancow having someone waterboard you.

Put it up on YouTube.


Ok. Specify the exact technique you want to see. I don't want any "You cheated" bullshit.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm no expert on the technique. I guess you could check out the other demonstration by Kaj Larsen and see if you can duplicate those conditions. He certainly lasted the longest. If you can get a military trainer to administer it, that would be great.

[jman3000]

Relax, it was just a joke. I already said it IS a form of torture. The dude was pinching Mancow's nostrils so I thought a smart ass response to your statement was appropriate.



C'mon, try to be at least a little honest. What Mancow experienced wasn't shit. Stating that doesn't qualify as being a "tough" guy. Do you think you could hold out longer than 4 seconds?

ok, my bad.

[SnakeBoy]

If you can get a military trainer to administer it, that would be great.

LOL! Yeah right, you'd have to settle for my wife or a drunk friend laughing at me while doing it. It would probably be a couple weeks before I set it up but I think it would go something like this...

rGIwuKKaYpU


OR

You could save me some time and save yourself $20 and just admit what Mancow did wasn't shit.

[ChumpDumper]

I can wait.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm no expert on the technique. I guess you could check out the other demonstration by Kaj Larsen and see if you can duplicate those conditions. He certainly lasted the longest. If you can get a military trainer to administer it, that would be great.

I say it doesn't count unless he's kidnapped by hostile people and then placed in an empty warehouse before the waterboarding after an unknown length of time. :D

[SnakeBoy]

I say it doesn't count unless he's kidnapped by hostile people and then placed in an empty warehouse before the waterboarding after an unknown length of time. :D

That's absolutely correct, which is why these reporter demos are bs and why anyone can go more than 4 seconds.

I get more water down my nose swimming across Boerne lake on a really windy/wavy day.

I'll let you know when I put a vid up on youtube Chump.

[Yonivore]

I say we start a thread on the horror of nearly burning to death before jumping from a 110 story building and those willing to visit some discomfort on terrorists to prevent it from happening again.

[ChumpDumper]

I say we start a thread on the horror of nearly burning to death before jumping from a 110 story building and those willing to visit some discomfort on terrorists to prevent it from happening again.Yea torture!

[Yonivore]

Yea torture!
Waterboarding isn't torture.

Show me where, in any applicable statute, the enhanced interrogation technique called "waterboarding" and the precise manner in which it is applied by our government, to terrorists and trainees alike, is defined as torture.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure it's torture -- people who did it have been tried and convicted and punished for it for a century.

I gave you all the information multiple times, but you just ignored it like you always do.

You want to stay ignorant. It provides you with a sense of security. That isn't my problem.

[Yonivore]

Sure it's torture -- people who did it have been tried and convicted and punished for it for a century.
You need to understand the law better.

No one has ever been convicted of "waterboarding." They've been convicted of other crimes, in which, a water torture (sometimes called "waterboarding" which, by all descriptions I've seen, is much more dangerous and debilitating than the waterboarding used on the terrorists) was merely an element of the crime.


I gave you all the information multiple times, but you just ignored it like you always do.

You want to stay ignorant. It provides you with a sense of security. That isn't my problem.
You've provided nothing persuasive.

Show me an indictment where the actual arrest title is "waterboarding."

If what we did to the terrorists is torture, then what we did to trainees is, as well.

[ChumpDumper]

You've provided nothing persuasive.Again, that's because you are an idiot.

Not my problem.

[Booharv]

What's a Mancow?

[clambake]

we shouldn't have tortured people.....oh well.

[Yonivore]

we shouldn't have tortured people.....oh well.
We haven't.

[DarrinS]

I knew that "waterboarding" didn't look right.

http://gawker.com/5271813/did-erich-mancow-muller-fake-his-waterboarding-for-publicity




Did Erich 'Mancow Muller Fake His Waterboarding for Publicity?

Yesterday we showed you video of Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based right-wing shockjock, appearing as a guest on Keith Olbermann's show to discuss his being waterboarded. He claimed it led to an ideological conversion! But now a tipster has provided information that suggests the whole thing may be a hoax.

The information provided to Gawker by our tipster came in a series of emails and is somewhat layered, so we'll try to lay it all out as unconfusingly as possible. Where the story begins is last Thursday afternoon, the day before Mancow was scheduled to be waterboarded, when the person slated to do the waterboarding suddenly backed out, sending Mancow's publicity team into a mild frenzy to find someone to replace him. A chain of emails followed, emails that were subsequently forwarded to Gawker by our tipster.

There are three main players in the following sequence of events:

-The first is a Chicago-based publicist named Linda Shafran whose clients include the Jerry Springer and Steve Wilkos shows, in addition to Erich "Mancow" Muller. In describing Shafran our tipster added:

"Linda Shafran is Springer's current publicist until the show starts shooting in CT. Since Springer is her primary source of income, she's now trying to help promote Mancow nationally as a shock jock alternative to Howard Stern."

-The second person involved in this is a man named David Kupcinet. He runs a Chicago-based foundation for veterans called Kup's Purple Heart Foundation. He is the grandson of Irv Kupcinet, a somewhat legendary Chicago gossip columnist who wrote a column for the Chicago Sun Times for over 60 years. At the behest of a friend, Linda Shafran contacted Kupcinet on Thursday hoping that his relationships with Chicago-area veterans and military personnel could help her find a replacement waterboarder.

-The third person involved here, to a much lesser degree, is another Chicago-based publicist named Kathy Posner. According to our tipster, Posner is Jerry Springer's former flack and a friend of both Linda Shafran and Erich "Mancow" Muller. According to one of the emails we were forwarded, it was Posner who suggested that Shafran contact David Kupcinet to find a replacement waterboarder.

Now, with all of that background established, here are some of the emails that followed between Shafran and Kupcinet, the first being the initial contact between the two on the matter:

From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:15 PM
To: [redacted]
Subject: URGENT

Don't shoot the messenger

Mancow has been promoting all week that he is getting waterboarded tomorrow between 8-9am on-air. We have camera crew shooting it for WGN

The swat guy he had to do the waterboarding now can't do it. Do you know any military guy that might come down to WLS radio tomorrow (190 N. State Street) to waterboard Mancow????

Kathy said you know lots of military guys that might do it...or a policeman or fireman or EMT.

HELP

Linda Shafran
Jerry Springer Show
454 N. Columbus Dr.
Chicago, IL 60611
PH: [redacted]
cell: [redacted]
Email: [redacted]

Kupcinet, or "Kuppy," responded a few minutes later:

From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:28 PM
To: [redacted]
Subject: Re: URGENT

What exactly do you mean? You mean really tortured? What exactly would it consist of and do they need to bring gear or does Cow have what he needs or what?

Get back to me quick an ill find u a guy.

Kuppy

(P.S. Love you)

Sent from my iPhone

Now, here's the key email in the exchange, with Shafran saying in no uncertain terms that the whole thing is being staged as a hoax:

From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM
To: [redacted]
Cc: [redacted]
Subject: Re: URGENT

You are a ROCK STAR!!!

It is going to have to look "real" but of course would be simulated with Mancow acting like he is drowning. It will be a hoax but have to look real. Would be great if they could dress in fatigues and bring whatever is needed. We will supply the water

xxxx

Linda Shafran
Jerry Springer Show
454 N. Columbus Dr.
Chicago, IL 60611
PH: [redacted]
cell: [redacted]
Email: [redacted]

After getting this email from Shafran, David Kupcinet suggested she contact Marine Sgt. Clay South, the person who eventually carried out Mancow's waterboarding. We include this next email only because we find the compensation offer extended to South from Mancow via Shafran to be somewhat amusing:

From: [redacted]
Date: Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:02 PM
To: [redacted]
Subject: MANCOW WAS ALL OVER IT

I tried to call you but got voicemail. I talked to Mancow and he said "Are you kidding - of course he can mention the charity and talk about his experiences over there"

I am going to call Klay now. Mancow will pay gas and parking.

Linda Shafran
Jerry Springer Show
454 N. Columbus Dr.
Chicago, IL 60611
PH: [redacted]
FX: [redacted]
Email: [redacted]

We contacted Linda Shafran last night for a statement about this and she emailed us back with an emphatic denial that anything was faked:

It was NOT a hoax. Early on when we were looking for someone to waterboard, an email was sent out looking for someone to do it and I mistakenly said it would be staged. That was my mistake and a misunderstanding.

But that was early and NOT TRUE AT ALL. It was not staged. NOT AT ALL. When it happened several days later, it was real, honest, actual, not staged.

Any info you have was my mistake. THE WATERBOARDING OF MANCOW WAS REAL!!!!!!

The glaring discrepancy in Shafran's statement to us is that her emails to Kupcinet are dated Thursday, May 21st, the day prior to Mancow's waterboarding, while she now claims that these emails were sent out "early on" and that the waterboarding took place "several days later." Additionally, she even mentions that Mancow "is getting waterboarded tomorrow" in her first note to Kupcinet.

Regarding the emails between Safran and Kupcinet, our tipster also informed us that they were shared with Keith Olbermann's producers prior to Mancow's appearance on his show. We were told that they were beyond livid when they found out about them and expressed their extreme displeasure for the whole situation with Linda Shafran over the phone, but went ahead with the planned segment anyway, making no mention of the fact that they'd received advance word that the whole thing may have been staged. However, we were unable to confirm this with anyone at MSNBC.

Now, we're obviously no experts on the art of waterboarding, but we've done a bit of research on it and also went back and watched the video of Christopher Hitchens' waterboarding in 2008 to compare and contrast his waterboarding against Mancow's, and we couldn't help but notice some rather striking differences.

In the Hitchens video, everything is carried out pretty much according to universal waterboarding protocol as we've come to understand it. His limbs and torso are tightly bound by restraints. The platform on which he lays appears to be tilted slightly downward so that his head is positioned below his heart. His head is also completely covered and the water used looks as though it's poured directly into his breathing passages.

In contrast, Mancow isn't bound by restraints at all, he doesn't appear to have his body positioned at a decline, only a portion of his face from the nose up is covered, and the water is being poured on him inappropriately.

In short, when we watched the Mancow video for the first time it struck us in a "well that doesn't look TOO awful" sort of way. For a brief moment it even made us want to call some friends over so we could all waterboard each other and see what all the fuss is about. On the other hand, the Hitchens video is somewhat nightmarish, making us want to never have anything to do with a waterboarding, ever.

[clambake]

hannity is a chicken.

[FaithInOne]

Out of all the horrible actions past civilizations have carried out...people complain about...waterboarding.

That's weak. Weak times.

[clambake]

Out of all the horrible actions past civilizations have carried out...people complain about...waterboarding.

That's weak. Weak times.

yep.....now we're no better than anyone else. thanks w.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

yep.....now we're no better than anyone else. thanks w.
yeah, and 2girls1cup put our best foot forward. :rolleyes

[clambake]

yeah, and 2girls1cup put our best foot forward. :rolleyes

whats that?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

whats that?
it's what made us better than everyone else until w ruined it for us.

[clambake]

it's what made us better than everyone else until w ruined it for us.

if you can't explain it......just say so.

and congrats on your waterboy job.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

if you can't explain it......just say so.

and congrats on your waterboy job.


hmm, spoonfed jr.
who knews

[clambake]

hmm, spoonfed jr.
who knews

so.....what happened to your girl?

do you still see her?

[Ignignokt]

so.....what happened to your girl?

do you still see her?

She's with an englishman, you must feel his pain.

[clambake]

She's with an englishman, you must feel his pain.

:lol good one