French Airliner Goes Missing over Atlantic

[Thunder Dan]

This is crazy. They went through a storm and they never heard from the pilots or anything. No May Day call, just an automated signal of electrical problems from the computer on board. I guess it's possible that everyone died in the air or something because of lightning or loss of cabin pressure.



SAO PAULO, Brazil — A missing Air France jet carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris ran into a towering wall of thunderstorms over the Atlantic Ocean, officials said Monday, fearing that all aboard were lost.

The area where the plane could have gone down was vast, in the middle of very deep Atlantic Ocean waters between Brazil and the coast of Africa. Brazil's military searched for it off its northeast coast, while the French military scoured the ocean near the Cape Verde Islands off the West African coast.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy told families of those aboard that "prospects of finding survivors were very small." If all 228 were killed, it would be the deadliest commercial airline disaster since 2001.

Sarkozy, speaking at Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport, said the reason for the disappearance remained unclear and that "no hypothesis" was excluded.

"(I met with) a mother who lost her son, a fiancee who lost her future husband. I told them the truth," he said.

Sarkozy said "it will be very difficult" to find the plane because the zone where it is believed to have disappeared "is immense." He said France has asked for help from U.S. satellites to locate the plane.

Chief Air France spokesman Francois Brousse said "it is possible" the plane was hit by lightning, but aviation experts expressed doubt that a bolt of lightning was enough to bring the plane down.

Air France's manager in Rio de Janeiro, Jorge Assuncao, told reporters that the two biggest groups of nationalities aboard were Brazilian and French. Other passengers were American, Angolan, Argentine, Belgian, British, Chinese, Filipino, German, Irish, Italian, Moroccan, Norwegian, Spanish and Slovakian.

Air France Flight 447, a 4-year-old Airbus A330, left Rio on Sunday at 7:03 p.m. local time (2203 GMT, 6:03 p.m. EDT) with 216 passengers and 12 crew members on board, said company spokeswoman Brigitte Barrand.

The plane left Brazil radar contact, beyond the Fernando de Noronha archipelago, at 10:48 local time (0148 GMT, 9:48 p.m. EDT), indicating it was flying normally at 35,000 feet (10,670 meters) and traveling at 522 mph (840 kph).

About a half-hour later, the plane "crossed through a thunderous zone with strong turbulence." It sent an automatic message fourteen minutes later at 0214 GMT (10:14 p.m. EDT Sunday) reporting electrical failure and a loss of cabin pressure.

Air France told Brazilian authorities the last information they heard was that automated message reporting a technical problem before the plane reached a monitoring station near the Cape Verde islands.

Brazilian Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said seven aircraft had been deployed to search the area far off the northeastern Brazilian coast.

"We want to try to reach the last point where the aircraft made contact, which is about 745 miles (1,200 kilometers) northeast of Natal," Amaral told Globo TV.

Meteorologists said tropical storms are much more violent than thunderstorms in the United States and elsewhere.

"Tropical thunderstorms ... can tower up to 50,000 feet (15,240 meters). At the altitude it was flying, it's possible that the Air France plane flew directly into the most charged part of the storm -- the top," Henry Margusity, senior meteorologist for AccuWeather.com, said in a statement.

Brazil's Navy said it was sending three ships to search waters about 1,100 kilometers (680 miles) from Natal.

Portuguese air control authorities say the missing plane did not make contact with controllers in Portugal's mid-Atlantic Azores Islands nor, as far as they know, with other Atlantic air traffic controllers in Cape Verde, Casablanca, or the Canary islands.

In Washington, a Pentagon official said he'd seen no indication that terrorism or foul play was involved. He spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the subject.

Sobbing relatives of people aboard the plane arrived at an airport in Sao Paulo to fly on to Rio de Janeiro, where Air France was assisting relatives. Andres Fernandes, his eyes tearing up, said a relative "was supposed to be on the flight, but we need to confirm it," Globo TV reported.

At the Charles de Gaulle airport north of Paris, family members who had arrived to meet passengers refused to speak to reporters and were brought to a cordoned-off crisis center.

Air France said it expressed "its sincere condolences to the families and loved ones of the passengers and crew members" aboard Flight 447. The airline did not explicitly say there were no survivors, but allowed Sarkozy address the issue for them.

Air France-KLM CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, at a news conference, said the plane's pilot had 11,000 hours of flying experience, including 1,700 hours flying this aircraft.

Experts said the absence of a mayday call meant something happened very quickly.

"The conclusion to be drawn is that something catastrophic happened on board that has caused this airplane to ditch in a controlled or an uncontrolled fashion," Jane's Aviation analyst Chris Yates told The Associated Press. "Potentially it went down very quickly and so quickly that the pilot on board didn't have a chance to make that emergency call."

But aviation experts said the risk the plane was brought down by lightning was slim.

"Lightning issues have been considered since the beginning of aviation. They were far more prevalent when aircraft operated at low altitudes. They are less common now since it's easier to avoid thunderstorms," said Bill Voss, president and CEO of Flight Safety Foundation, Alexandria, Va.

He said planes have specific measures built in to help dissipate electricity along the aircraft's skin, and are tested for resistance to big electromagnetic shocks and equipped to resist them. He said the plane should be found, because it has backup locators that should continue to function even in deep water.

If all 228 people were killed, it would be the deadliest commercial airline disaster since Nov. 12, 2001, when an American Airlines jetliner crashed in the New York City borough of Queens during a flight to the Dominican Republic, killing 265 people. On Feb. 19, 2003, 275 people were killed in the crash of an Iranian military plane carrying members of the Revolutionary Guards as it prepared to land at Kerman airport in Iran.

The worst single-plane disaster was in 1985 when a Japan Air Lines Boeing 747 crashed into a mountainside after losing part of its tail fin, killing 520 people.

Airbus would not further comment until more details emerged.

"Our thoughts are with the passengers and with the families of the passengers," said Airbus spokeswoman Maggie Bergsma.

She said it was the first fatal accident of a A330-200 since a test flight in 1994 went wrong, killing seven people in Toulouse.

The Airbus A330-200 is a twin-engine, long-haul, medium-capacity passenger jet that is 190 feet (58.8 meters) long. It is a shortened version of the standard A330, and can hold up to 253 passengers. There are 341 in use worldwide today. It can fly up to 7,760 miles (12,500 kilometers).

Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for GE Aviation, expressed doubt that the engine was at fault. He said the CF6-80E engine that powered the Air France plane "is the most popular and reliable engine that we have for big airplanes in the world." He said there are more than 15,000 airplanes flying in the world with that engine design.

The prospect of finding any survivors is very weak

[FaithInOne]

Listen to Locke!

[MannyIsGod]

Listen to Locke!

:lmao

I was so going to make a similar post. Good job.

[Bukefal]

Yeah, this is very strange. Im still wondering. They havent found them yet right? Exactly, makes you think about lost a bit :wow

[ManuTP9]

shouldnt their have been some "debris" from the plane seen somewhere in the water by now..... its been daylight for hours now?

[Extra Stout]

:lmao

I was so going to make a similar post. Good job.
Ahahahaha, 228 people died earlier today, let's make a joke about a TV show while the wound is still fresh!

[MannyIsGod]

Ahahahaha, 228 people died earlier today, let's make a joke about a TV show while the wound is still fresh!

Wow and you told me to stop being so sensitive? Give me a fucking break ES.

Oh noes, 238 people! What ever was I thinking making jokes on such a serious forum!

Someone must have kicked you in the nuts today. Your seriously grouchy.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Most pilots will fly around storms. But this airliners just happens to fly through a storm and gets hit by lightning over the Atlantic and disappears?

Sounds fishy to me. A contrived cover story to mask a terrorist hit?

[ManuTP9]

Coming From Twitter: the aliens made the plane dissappear, and have all the victims are alive but are on an alien planet getting tests run on them.

[2Blonde]

That's awful. I worry about that kinda stuff since my daughter is flying to Germany via Dublin this Thursday. I'm praying fast & furious that all her flights are uneventful. :)

[King]

Ahahahaha, 228 people died earlier today, let's make a joke about a TV show while the wound is still fresh!

So, you're saying there's a point where it'll be ok to make jokes about it? When is that, exactly?

For the record, I'm fine with the joke. I laughed at the Locke thing, and those jokes don't bother me. But, you're insinuating that there's a point where it goes from taboo to acceptable. I'm just wondering what the official waiting time is.

[InRareForm]

there should be no jokes in this thread.

terrible and sad.

[lefty]

Boeing > Airbus

[BlackSwordsMan]

fucking somali pirates

[Thunder Dan]

shouldnt their have been some "debris" from the plane seen somewhere in the water by now..... its been daylight for hours now?

They lost contact with it right off the waters of Brazil, and the automated thing came from when it should have been off the coast of Africa- so the space they are searching is basically the entire Atlantic Ocean. It just happened this morning so it would take awhile, if they ever find it. They said that the stuff could sink and they may never find the stuff because it's the deepest part of the Atlantic.


I just think about how scary that must be to be in that kind of position knowing you are above water and there is nothing you can do.

[lefty]

They lost contact with it right off the waters of Brazil, and the automated thing came from when it should have been off the coast of Africa- so the space they are searching is basically the entire Atlantic Ocean. It just happened this morning so it would take awhile, if they ever find it. They said that the stuff could sink and they may never find the stuff because it's the deepest part of the Atlantic.


I just think about how scary that must be to be in that kind of position knowing you are above water and there is nothing you can do.

As long as you are not in an Airbus, you are fine

[Jacob1983]

When I first read about this on the internet this morning, I thought about Lost. It's a sucky thing to happen. I hope the families of the victims sue the airlines. No excuses for an airplane to disappear. It would be awesome if the passengers and crew on the plane weren't dead. A happy ending to this story would be nice but I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Fernando TD21]

I just read in a brazillian news site that a pilot claims to have seen "orange dots" floating in the sea, in the search area. So they believe that there might be survivors.

[JudynTX]

This is tragic, no matter how you look at it. Very eerie too.

[Bukefal]

I just read, that a ship has seen pieces of the aircraft.

[SpursStalker]

I just read in a brazillian news site that a pilot claims to have seen "orange dots" floating in the sea, in the search area. So they believe that there might be survivors.

This is quite tragic ...

I see no survivors with this crash.

My heart and prayers go out to the loss of loved ones.

[Bukefal]

I just read in a brazillian news site that a pilot claims to have seen "orange dots" floating in the sea, in the search area. So they believe that there might be survivors.

They did not believe there might be survivors. Since the orange dots, they thought they were pieces of the aircraft in fire. Just now, they found other pieces and even seats of the airplane.

[Extra Stout]

I just read in a brazillian news site that a pilot claims to have seen "orange dots" floating in the sea, in the search area. So they believe that there might be survivors.
Err... based on what I read, the "orange dots," if they were anything related to the crash, would have been bits of flaming wreckage, as opposed to life rafts. So I don't see how that would imply the possibility of survivors.

[NameDropper]

Debris has been spotted along the flight path is being reported by Brazilian authorities.

[sonic21]

Air France just said there was no hope of finding survivors anymore.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

[duncan228]

A missing Air France jet carrying 228 people...

:(

I can't even imagine the pain the families are experiencing. Thoughts and prayers for them all.

228 is a lucky number. Maybe there will be a miracle.

[Wild Cobra]

All I can say, is I believe there have been statistically to many Airbus crashes. Won't find me flying on one...

[Heath Ledger]

It is really sad but at least the french people on board will have better food in heaven.

[chode_regulator]

shouldnt their have been some "debris" from the plane seen somewhere in the water by now..... its been daylight for hours now?
Yes because the Atlantic Ocean is soooooooo terribly small. :rolleyes


Most pilots will fly around storms. But this airliners just happens to fly through a storm and gets hit by lightning over the Atlantic and disappears?

Sounds fishy to me. A contrived cover story to mask a terrorist hit?
Ever heard of the Intertropical Convergence Zone? Didn't think so. Try reading up on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertropical_Convergence_Zone


All I can say, is I believe there have been statistically to many Airbus crashes. Won't find me flying on one...

Link please?

[sonic21]

All I can say, is I believe there have been statistically to many Airbus crashes. Won't find me flying on one...

???

[chode_regulator]

http://www.aviationweather.gov/data/products/swh/PGIE05_12_CL_new.gif

Please someone tell me hwo to fly around this.

[chode_regulator]

All I can say, is I believe there have been statistically to many Airbus crashes. Won't find me flying on one...

still waiting...

[FaithInOne]

:lmao

I was so going to make a similar post. Good job.

haha dude I heard this story and was FREAKED out.

[Wild Cobra]

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra View Post

All I can say, is I believe there have been statistically to many Airbus crashes. Won't find me flying on one..
Link please?
How about this:

Fatal Event Rates for Selected Airliner Models (http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm)

OK, the A300 is Airbus' answer to the 727, and also similar to the 767. It has 9 events for 11.04 million flights, or .815 events per million. It has a death rate of 0.54 per million flights. The 727 has .628 events and 0.49 deaths. The 767 0.432 events and 0.4 deaths.

The A310 has 1.655 events and 1.27 deaths per million. Comparable to the 767... its not... It's more than 3 times higher!

The A320/19/21 line actually has a good relative record. 0.228 events and 0.13 deaths per million flights. Compare... The 737 has 0.493 and 0.36, the 757 is at 0.392 and 0.3.

The A340 is too new, with only 1.71 million flights by the sites statistics. Zero events so far. However, there are three flight related events listed in Wiki since 2005 for it. If I had time, or really cared about the subject, I would find a more up to date site. Anyway... Comparable to the 747 with 1.55 events and 0.76 deaths. Also the 777 with only 2 million flights, zero events and deaths. As of 4/30/2009, there were 777, 777's delivered! Only 364 A340's so far. I wonder if part of the problem is more flights per bird? Less downtime and maintenance? 364 aircraft making 1.71 million flights vs. 777 aircraft making 2 million flights...

Now when you consider how old both the 727 and 747 are, younger birds will have better records. I'd say that especially for the A310, there's no excuse for its record.

[Wild Cobra]

I forgot to list the A330, but the site had zero events and deaths listed with an unknown number of flights. It is comparable to the 767 and 777. There are now two events and multiple lives lost:

wiki:


On 7 October 2008, VH-QPA, an A330-303 operating Qantas Flight 72, suffered a rapid loss of altitude in two sudden uncommanded pitch down manoeuvres causing serious injuries while 80 nautical miles (150 km) from Learmonth, Australia. After declaring an emergency and safely landing in Learmonth, 14 required transportation by air ambulance to Perth for treatment, while up to another 30 also required hospital treatment. Up to a further 30 had injuries not requiring hospital treatment. Initial investigations identified a inertial reference system fault in the Number-1 Air Data Inertial Reference Unit as the likely origin of the event. On receiving false indication of a very high angle of attack, the flight control systems commanded a pitch down movement, reaching a maximum of 8.5 degrees pitch down.

On 1 June 2009, Air France Flight 447, an Airbus A330-203 en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 persons onboard was reported lost over the Atlantic Ocean. The fate of the aircraft and those on board is currently unknown, however it is feared that the plane crashed into the Atlantic Ocean and everyone on board was killed. Debris from an aircraft was located on 2 June 2009 approximately 650 km (350 nmi) north of the Fernando de Noronha islands.

[chode_regulator]

How about this:

Fatal Event Rates for Selected Airliner Models (http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm)

OK, the A300 is Airbus' answer to the 727, and also similar to the 767. It has 9 events for 11.04 million flights, or .815 events per million. It has a death rate of 0.54 per million flights. The 727 has .628 events and 0.49 deaths. The 767 0.432 events and 0.4 deaths.

The A310 has 1.655 events and 1.27 deaths per million. Comparable to the 767... its not... It's more than 3 times higher!

The A320/19/21 line actually has a good relative record. 0.228 events and 0.13 deaths per million flights. Compare... The 737 has 0.493 and 0.36, the 757 is at 0.392 and 0.3.

The A340 is too new, with only 1.71 million flights by the sites statistics. Zero events so far. However, there are three flight related events listed in Wiki since 2005 for it. If I had time, or really cared about the subject, I would find a more up to date site. Anyway... Comparable to the 747 with 1.55 events and 0.76 deaths. Also the 777 with only 2 million flights, zero events and deaths. As of 4/30/2009, there were 777, 777's delivered! Only 364 A340's so far. I wonder if part of the problem is more flights per bird? Less downtime and maintenance? 364 aircraft making 1.71 million flights vs. 777 aircraft making 2 million flights...

Now when you consider how old both the 727 and 747 are, younger birds will have better records. I'd say that especially for the A310, there's no excuse for its record.

Well the 727 isnt used much anymore except for in cargo. The 747 is damn old in aviation terms and probably on its way to being phased out. One of the airbus you use in comparison is .05 people dead per 1 million more than the boeing. Not a siginificant number. Another is three times more than the boeing, yet anoither is half as much as a boeing. So really not a big difference at all.

Out of 364 A340's there have been 3 incidents in 4 years?!?!?!?! Wow|!!!!!! I would say that is outstanding and would love to fly on an aircraft that is that outstanding.

You say the 777 is old at 2 million flights but hte 340 is new at 1.7? I dont get it........which is it?

[chode_regulator]

I forgot to list the A330, but the site had zero events and deaths listed with an unknown number of flights. It is comparable to the 767 and 777. There are now two events and multiple lives lost:

wiki:

Man not to take anythingaway from the people that died...I feel for them and their families...but one fatal crash for the whole series sounds pretty goddamn good to me.
How many flights are there daily with the 330?

[Wild Cobra]

Man not to take anythingaway from the people that died...I feel for them and their families...but one fatal crash for the whole series sounds pretty goddamn good to me.
How many flights are there daily with the 330?
I agree, but there aren't comparable statistics because it is such a new plane. When we are talking about incidents per million flights, it hasn't had enough flights yet to have any statistical meaning. As for how many flights per day? I don't know. I know there are about 600 in service now, and the first delivery was in 1993. The A330-203 lost a few days ago was a 2002 design variant. Anyway, my mistake on something... this is now the third A330 incident. The one I missed:

On 18 July 2003, B-HYA, a Dragonair A330-342 encountered severe turbulence associated with Tropical Depression Koni over the South China Sea, during the flight KA060 from Kota Kinabalu to Hong Kong. 12 crew members and 3 passengers were injured, of which 2 crew members sustained serious injuries, but there were no fatalities. The aircraft landed safely at Hong Kong International Airport.
I'm not counting these incidents:


On 24 August 2001, Air Transat, Flight 236, an A330-243, performed the world's longest recorded glide with a jet airliner after suffering fuel exhaustion over the Atlantic Ocean. The plane flew powerless for half an hour and covered 65 nautical miles (120 km) to an emergency landing in the Azores (Portugal). No one was hurt, but the aircraft suffered some structural damage and blown tires.

On 15 March 2000, a 6-year-old Malaysia Airlines A330-300 aircraft was severely damaged by corrosive liquids that were being transported in the cargo hold on a passenger flight from Beijing to Kuala Lumpur. The corrosive liquid oxalyl chloride was mistakenly declared as non-toxic solid hydroxyquinoline. 18 canisters of the substance were transported via Kuala Lumpur intended to transit to Chennai. Five airport workers fell ill as they were unloading baggage from the aircraft at Kuala Lumpur after some of the canisters had leaked and chemicals spilled into the aircraft's cargo hold, resulting in extensive corrosion damage to the fuselage, wing box structure and landing gear. The aircraft was subsequently declared written-off. On 12 June 2007, a court in Beijing ordered China National Chemical Construction Corp (the owner of the cargo) to pay US$65 million to Malaysia Airlines for the loss. because they are not a flight related incident that can be shown to be a design failure. Or is the fuel exhaustion one? Was it human error, or were the gauges wrong? Did it consume too much fuel during the flight? what went wrong here?

[chode_regulator]

I have seen a link for the determination of the fuel exhaustion but am too drunk to remember where i saw it at or the final determination.

the 330 has been in service since 1993, for thoise that are have math problems, that is 16 years. In those 16 years it has had 9 incidents, of which 4 were hull losses. One of which was on a test flight.
Soudns pretty safe to me...but then again I'm no aviation expert like you WC :rollin

[chode_regulator]

because they are not a flight related incident that can be shown to be a design failure. Or is the fuel exhaustion one? Was it human error, or were the gauges wrong? Did it consume too much fuel during the flight? what went wrong here?

Looks as if it was faulty maintenace plus pilot error that contributed to the fuel exhaustion.

[Wild Cobra]

I have seen a link for the determination of the fuel exhaustion but am too drunk to remember where i saw it at or the final determination.

the 330 has been in service since 1993, for thoise that are have math problems, that is 16 years. In those 16 years it has had 9 incidents, of which 4 were hull losses. One of which was on a test flight.
Soudns pretty safe to me...but then again I'm no aviation expert like you WC :rollin
I'm no expert either. I'm only going by the stats I find. Three in flight incidents aren't many, but they haven't flown as mush as other planes to have the same statistical significance. I'm probably just bothered the most by the A310's record. I cannot recall what triggered my dislike for Airbus, but it might be the A310's record. Once the A330 flies as many times as the A310 has, let's hope it doesn't have as bad of a record.

[1Parker1]

FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil (Reuters) - Search crews flying over the Atlantic found debris from a crashed Air France jet spread over more than 55 miles of ocean on Wednesday, reinforcing the possibility it broke up in the air.

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said the existence of large fuel stains in the water likely ruled out an explosion, undercutting speculation about a bomb attack.

"The existence of oil stains could exclude the possibility of a fire or explosion," he said at a news conference in Brasilia. "If we have oil stains, it means it wasn't burned."

Experts said extreme turbulence or decompression during stormy weather may have caused the Airbus A330, which took off from Rio de Janeiro bound for Paris on Sunday night, to splinter over the ocean with 228 people on board.

Two Brazilian navy ships arrived in the crash area, about 685 miles northeast of Brazil's coast, but had not yet retrieved any debris by nightfall. French officials said they may never discover why the plane went down as the flight data and voice recorders may be lost at the bottom of the ocean.

Air force pilots searching the area have reported no signs of survivors. Officials said recovering bodies may be extremely difficult.

"As well as bodies sinking, you also have problems along the coast of Pernambuco (state) that you know about," Jobim said in reference to sharks. He added bodies could take several days to float to the surface.

Newly spotted traces of the plane included a 12-mile (20-km) fuel stain and various objects spread across a 3-mile (5-km) area, including one metallic object 23 feet in diameter.

The Air France plane sent no mayday signals before crashing, only automatic messages showing electrical faults and a loss of pressure shortly after it entered stormy weather.

'DESTRUCTION WAS TOTAL'

"I continue to think violent turbulence caused structural damage to the plane," said Jose Carlos Pereira, former head of Brazil's airport authority Infraero.

"Its fall was localized but destruction was total," Pereira told Reuters.

Aviation trade publications focused on warnings in recent months issued by U.S. and European regulators about electronic systems on A330s and A340s that could throw planes into sharp dives. The directives covered ADIRUs -- air data inertial reference units -- that feed crucial information to the cockpit to help fly planes.

With officials struggling to explain how a modern aircraft could have crashed in stormy weather that is routine on the transatlantic route, there was speculation a bomb could have caused the worst crash in Air France's 75-year history.

The airline said on Wednesday it had received an anonymous telephone warning that a bomb was on a flight leaving Buenos Aires on May 27, four days before the crash. A spokesman said the plane was checked, no bomb was found and the aircraft left an hour and a half late. He added that such alerts were relatively common.

[1Parker1]

This is such a tragic and horrible story. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain the passenger's families must be feeling right now, knowing that their wife/husband/daughter/son is somewhere at the bottom of the atlantic ocean and that's where their bodies will remain.

Also, I can't even begin to imagine the last few minutes those passengers on that plane must have gone through. Truly terrifying...it's like your worst nightmare, you're on a plane going through turbulence and there's nothing put the vast atlantic ocean beneath you and you know you have no chance of survival.

On a side note, I read a story about how an 11 year old boy was flying by himself on the plane, going home from boarding school or something. How frightened must he have been? :(

My heart goes out to everyone involved in this tragedy.

[ploto]

Brazil's air force: Debris not from Air France crash

The Brazilian air force said Thursday night that debris picked up near where officials believe Air France Flight 447 crashed Monday into the Atlantic Ocean was not from the plane. The announcement came after helicopters had spent the day hoisting pieces of debris from the water and dropping them into three naval vessels. It was not clear what the recovered materials were or where they were from.
http://www.cnn.com/

Kind of weird....

UPDATED:

The Brazilian air force said Thursday night that debris picked up near where officials believe Air France Flight 447 crashed Monday into the Atlantic Ocean was not from the plane.

The news came after the Brazilian navy began retrieving debris Thursday that it believed was wreckage from the flight, which disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean.

On Wednesday, searchers recovered two debris fields and had identified the wreckage, including an airplane seat and an orange float as coming from Flight 447. Officials now say that none of the debris recovered is from the missing plane.

Helicopters had been lifting pieces from the water and dropping them on three naval vessels.

Brazilian Air Force planes spotted an oil slick and four debris fields Wednesday but rain and rough seas had kept searchers from plucking any of the debris from the water.

Officials said searchers had found objects in a circular 5-kilometer (3-mile) area, including one object with a diameter of 7 meters (23 feet) and 10 other objects, some of which were metallic, Brazilian Air Force spokesman Jorge Amaral said.

The debris was found about 650 kilometers (400 miles) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha Islands, an archipelago 355 kilometers off the northeast coast of Brazil.

Eleven aircraft and five ships are engaged in the search, including airplanes from France and the United States.

Earlier Thursday, a public interfaith service was held for the 228 victims at a 200-year-old Catholic Church in downtown Rio. Joining family members were members of the Brazilian armed forces, who are leading the recovery effort.

"Whoever has faith, whoever believes in God, believes in the eternity of the soul," said Mauro Chavez, whose friend lost a daughter on the flight. "This means everything."

Investigators have not yet determined what caused the plane to crash. The flight data recorders have not been recovered, and the plane's crew did not send any messages indicating problems before the plane disappeared.

A Spanish pilot said he saw an "intense flash" in the area where Flight 447 came down off the coast of Brazil, while a Brazilian minister appeared to rule out a midair explosion.

Meanwhile, a report in France suggested the pilots were perhaps flying at the "wrong speed" for the violent thunderstorm they flew into early on Monday before the Airbus A330's systems failed.

Le Monde newspaper reported that Airbus was sending a warning to operators of A330 jets with new advice on flying in storms.

As several ships trawled the debris site in the Atlantic, Brazil's defense minister said a 20-kilometer (12-mile) oil slick near where the plane, en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, went down indicated it probably did not break up until it hit the water.

However, both pilots of an Air Comet flight from Lima, Peru, to Lisbon, Portugal, sent a written report on the bright flash they said they saw to Air France, Airbus and the Spanish civil aviation authority, the airline told CNN.

"Suddenly, we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, which followed a descending and vertical trajectory and which broke up in six seconds," the captain wrote.

Air Comet declined to identify the pilot's name, but said he waited until landing to inform Air Comet management about what he saw. Air Comet then informed Spanish civil aviation authorities. The Air Comet co-pilot and a passenger aboard the same flight also saw the light.

But Robert Francis, former vice chairman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, said the question of determining where a plane broke up "is a very difficult one to deal with." He told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" that "there are lots of things that cause a plane to go out of control."

He added that extremely strong winds are not unusual near Brazil. Pilots who fly over that part of the world keep track of radar and "are very, very wary about the weather as they go back and forth down in that area."

Jobim said currents had strewn the debris widely and that the search area had been expanded to 300 square miles. Watch report on the struggle to find pieces of the plane »

The Airbus A330 went down about three hours after beginning what was to have been an 11-hour flight. No survivors have been found. Map of Flight AF 447's flight path »

The NTSB said Wednesday it has accepted an invitation from the French aviation accident investigation authority, the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses, to aid in the investigation.

The aircraft's computer system did send about four minutes of automated messages indicating a loss of cabin pressure and an electrical failure, officials have said.

Some investigators have noted that the plane flew through a severe lightning storm. Foul play has not been ruled out.

Air France had received a bomb threat May 27 for a flight from Buenos Aires, Argentina, to Paris, sources in the Argentine military and police told CNN on Wednesday. Watch as experts question whether recovery is possible »

According to the officials, who had been briefed on the incident and declined to be identified because of the ongoing investigation, the Air France office in Buenos Aires received the threat from a man speaking Spanish.

Authorities checked the Boeing 777 and found nothing. Security was tightened during check-in for Flight 415, which left on time and without incident, the officials said.

Most of the people on Flight 447 came from Brazil, France and Germany. The remaining victims were from 29 other countries, including three passengers from the United States.

French officials say they may never find the jet's flight data recorders in the ocean that experts say is up to 7,500 meters (24,600 feet) deep in the area where the plane crashed.

But Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva expressed optimism that the recorders, also known as black boxes, would be found.

The recorders are built to emit locator signals for up to 30 days. The French government has sent a research vessel carrying a deep-diving submersible to where the debris was found.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/04/plane.crash/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[Bender]

there's supposedly a big metal piece floating out there, and 2 buoys and some seats... why the hell haven't they been retrieved yet..?!

the wooden pallet that was retrieved turned out not to be from 447.

[pkbpkb81]

there's supposedly a big metal piece floating out there, and 2 buoys and some seats... why the hell haven't they been retrieved yet..?!

the wooden pallet that was retrieved turned out not to be from 447.

On Wednesday, searchers recovered two debris fields and had identified the wreckage, including an airplane seat and an orange float as coming from Flight 447. Officials now say that none of the debris recovered is from the missing plane.

[Bender]

oops, didn't read the entire article above my post. very strange that airplane debris is NOT from 447. very weird (as ploto said...). I mean, how many other planes crashed out there?

this might have the makings of another conspiracy theory, that will be debated for years and years, like the airliner over Lockerbie.

[BlackSwordsMan]

are you allowed to bring your own parachute on the plane?

[Bukefal]

The pallet was not, but they also found a seat, which probably was from the plane.

Also they are now saying, that it might be an attack, which they said before it was not possible.

[Bukefal]

are you allowed to bring your own parachute on the plane?

How are you planning to use it at such moments? There is no time to put it on, finding and opening a door in such a moment and jump out. Its impossible. And with the forces when opening a door in air, not possible. Its not like these parachute seats they have in jets.

[Bukefal]

I was thinking about the people who were supposed to be on the plane, but last minute canceled their tickets and stayed in Brasil. Thats a weird thought. Imagine you did that. There are several. One guy he had some problems with his passport so he was not able to catch that flight. A friend of his felt sorry for him and in support he also stayed behind with the guy. Imagine. Its strange.

Even one Slovenian guy missed the flight because his cab driver hurried to see a football game. So the Slovenian guy came too early to the airport. He wanted to catch this flight, but he learned that the plane did not have a seat with much legroom, so since he got their too early because of the cab driver, he was able to get an earlier air france flight which had a seat with legroom. So he got that one.

Weirdddddd. Probably the best not to think about these things at all.

[bobbybob0]

I actually knew a guy on this plane, a friend of one of my friends.

His wife is 5 month pregnant...

That sucks :depressed



BTW, here's the stats for the Airbus vs. Boeing debate http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/
Anyway, obsessing about airflight safety is pretty pointless if you're driving a car everyday.

[lefty]

I actually knew a guy on this plane, a friend of one of my friends.

His wife is 5 month pregnant...

That sucks :depressed



BTW, here's the stats for the Airbus vs. Boeing debate http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/
Anyway, obsessing about airflight safety is pretty pointless if you're driving a car everyday.

So sorry to hear that :depressed

[Shelly]

CNN just reported that the debris that was found was NOT from the plane. This is really bizarre.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/05/brazil.plane.crash/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[Thunder Dan]

I was thinking about the people who were supposed to be on the plane, but last minute canceled their tickets and stayed in Brasil. Thats a weird thought. Imagine you did that. There are several. One guy he had some problems with his passport so he was not able to catch that flight. A friend of his felt sorry for him and in support he also stayed behind with the guy. Imagine. Its strange.

Even one Slovenian guy missed the flight because his cab driver hurried to see a football game. So the Slovenian guy came too early to the airport. He wanted to catch this flight, but he learned that the plane did not have a seat with much legroom, so since he got their too early because of the cab driver, he was able to get an earlier air france flight which had a seat with legroom. So he got that one.

Weirdddddd. Probably the best not to think about these things at all.
like Mark Walberg on 9/11? He was supposed to be on one of the flights and over slept

[Viva Las Espuelas]

like Mark Walberg on 9/11? He was supposed to be on one of the flights and over slept
so was seth macfarlane. i forgot why he didn't make it on there.

[Thunder Dan]

so was seth macfarlane. i forgot why he didn't make it on there.

actually, I have it mixed up. Macfarlane overslept, and Wahlberg changed his flight at like 10 the night before.

[2Blonde]

My daughter flew on an airbus 330 last night from Dublin to Frankfurt. It was completely uneventful I am happy to say. I'm also glad I didn't know she was on an Airbus until she was halfway through that flight.

[ploto]

My daughter flew on an airbus 330 last night from Dublin to Frankfurt. It was completely uneventful I am happy to say. I'm also glad I didn't know she was on an Airbus until she was halfway through that flight.

Glad she got there OK.

[1Parker1]

CNN just reported that the debris that was found was NOT from the plane. This is really bizarre.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/05/brazil.plane.crash/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Seriously...this is absolutely bizzare. I mean they found seats and life jackets...but not from the plane? How could such a big plane have disappeared like that? And how can there be such a BIG oil slick...it was like 12 miles long and it NOT be from the 447 because they say it did not have that much fuel? Does this mean there was another plane crash in that area recently which no one knows about?

[lefty]

actually, I have it mixed up. Macfarlane overslept, and Wahlberg changed his flight at like 10 the night before.
That's really suspect

[2Blonde]

Glad she got there OK.
Thanks, me too...

[BlackSwordsMan]

I was thinking about the people who were supposed to be on the plane, but last minute canceled their tickets and stayed in Brasil. Thats a weird thought. Imagine you did that. There are several. One guy he had some problems with his passport so he was not able to catch that flight. A friend of his felt sorry for him and in support he also stayed behind with the guy. Imagine. Its strange.

Even one Slovenian guy missed the flight because his cab driver hurried to see a football game. So the Slovenian guy came too early to the airport. He wanted to catch this flight, but he learned that the plane did not have a seat with much legroom, so since he got their too early because of the cab driver, he was able to get an earlier air france flight which had a seat with legroom. So he got that one.

Weirdddddd. Probably the best not to think about these things at all.
a story I read in the paper was some guy they booked him for this flight but he fought it and wanted his previous flight and they gave it back to him. :wow

[BlackSwordsMan]

Seriously...this is absolutely bizzare. I mean they found seats and life jackets...but not from the plane? How could such a big plane have disappeared like that? And how can there be such a BIG oil slick...it was like 12 miles long and it NOT be from the 447 because they say it did not have that much fuel? Does this mean there was another plane crash in that area recently which no one knows about?

:lol no shit how many planes crash in this ocean?

[johnsmith]

:lol no shit how many planes crash in this ocean?

It happens all the time, read a comic book or watch a movie sometime. Geez.

[pkbpkb81]

yeah but what plane are the other items from

[BlackSwordsMan]

2 bodies found from air france according to CNN

[mrsmaalox]

Seriously...this is absolutely bizzare. I mean they found seats and life jackets...but not from the plane? How could such a big plane have disappeared like that? And how can there be such a BIG oil slick...it was like 12 miles long and it NOT be from the 447 because they say it did not have that much fuel? Does this mean there was another plane crash in that area recently which no one knows about?


:lol no shit how many planes crash in this ocean?


yeah but what plane are the other items from

Most likely drug smugglers.

[Bukefal]

They just reported that they found 2 bodies some 640 km away of the brasilian island it happened close too. And some pieces of the plane were found. Some countries are also sending submarines.

[pkbpkb81]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane

said they found a ticket for the flight also

[lefty]

Just sad


And I'm flying overseas this summer

[sonic21]

so my cousin is working at air france, he said they're trying to hide what happened, he said there was a problem (he doesn't know exactly what) and the plane disintegrated in the air 30 minutes after.

[lefty]

so my cousin is working at air france, he said they're trying to hide what happened, he said there was a problem (he doesn't know exactly what) and the plane disintegrated in the air 30 minutes after.


Boeing >>>>>>>>>>>>> Airbus

[Shelly]

My friend, who is flight attendant, was talking to one of the captains she was flying with and the captain thinks that everyone on the plane lost consciousness. That could explain all the error messages and no SOS calls or whatever.

[1Parker1]

My friend, who is flight attendant, was talking to one of the captains she was flying with and the captain thinks that everyone on the plane lost consciousness. That could explain all the error messages and no SOS calls or whatever.

How can they all lose consciousness like that without having at least SOME sort of warning? That's never happened before has it?

Either way, just read an AP update that they've dound a total of about 17 bodies already so far and hundreds of personal items belonging to the passengers, i.e. Laptops, plane tickets, etc. but aren't giving out the details so as not to upset the families. :(

I can't even imagine, but they say the plane most likely definitely broke up in midair.

[resistanze]

I heard a story on BBC (I think) of a small French electrical company that rewarded 10 of its employees with a free trip to Brazil. How tragic.

[BlackSwordsMan]

How can they all lose consciousness like that without having at least SOME sort of warning? That's never happened before has it?

Either way, just read an AP update that they've dound a total of about 17 bodies already so far and hundreds of personal items belonging to the passengers, i.e. Laptops, plane tickets, etc. but aren't giving out the details so as not to upset the families. :(

I can't even imagine, but they say the plane most likely definitely broke up in midair.

no oxygen if the cabin pressure drops
why do you oxygen bags fall down?

[BlackSwordsMan]

17 bodies found so far btw

[sonic21]

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5501PB20090606?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


Theories about the crash have focused on the possibility that airspeed sensors malfunctioned, leading the pilots to set the wrong speed as the plane passed through storms.

French air investigators said on Saturday that Airbus had detected faulty speed readings on its A330 jets ahead of last week's crash and had recommended clients replace a sensor.

The head of France's air accident agency (BEA) said in a news conference that it was too soon to say if problems with the pressure-based speed sensors were in any way responsible for the disaster.

"Some of the sensors (on the A330) were earmarked to be changed ... but that does not mean that without these replacement parts, the (Air France) plane would have been defective," BEA chief Paul-Louis Arslanian said.

Airbus confirmed it issued a bulletin asking the plane's 50 or so airline operators to consider changing the speed sensors, known as Pitot tubes, but it said it was an optional measure to improve performance and not related to safety.

The date of the bulletin was not immediately clear, and an Air France spokesman said he did not yet know whether the sensors had been changed on the stricken jet.

FLURRY OF MESSAGES

The doomed Air France plane sent 24 automated messages between 0210 GMT (9:10 p.m. EST) and 0214 GMT (9:14 p.m. EST) indicating a series of system failures before it vanished, Arslanian said.

In the middle of this stream of data was one message showing inconsistent speed readings from the A330's sensors.

The messages also showed that the autopilot was off, though it was impossible to say whether it had disengaged itself, as it is designed to do when it receives suspect data, or whether the pilot had decided to turn it off

[1Parker1]

no oxygen if the cabin pressure drops
why do you oxygen bags fall down?

Yea, but I meant, what would cause the cabin pressure to drop like that all of a sudden? Just because the plane flew through some turbulent weather? Regardless, what a horrific story. :(

Also, is it true that dead bodies in water eventually float to the top after a few days? I read that somewhere, but wasn't sure if it was true and why....

[BlackSwordsMan]

Also, is it true that dead bodies in water eventually float to the top after a few days? I read that somewhere, but wasn't sure if it was true and why....they bloat

[BlackSwordsMan]

cause of the gasses in your stomach not being able to leave

[Shelly]

Yea, but I meant, what would cause the cabin pressure to drop like that all of a sudden? Just because the plane flew through some turbulent weather? Regardless, what a horrific story. :(

Also, is it true that dead bodies in water eventually float to the top after a few days? I read that somewhere, but wasn't sure if it was true and why....

1P1--this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/aug/18/thisweekssciencequestions3) explains it.



It depends how quickly and at what altitude it happens. The loss of the Helios Airways Boeing 737 near Athens on Sunday may have been the result of a drop in cabin pressure.

Paradoxically, a rapid drop can be easier to deal with because it is so obvious. Within seconds, objects which are not tied down will be blown out of the breach, the temperature inside will drop to -30C or below, and water vapour in the air will condense into a thick mist.

Airliners fly at an altitude of about 9-10,000m, where atmospheric pressure is only a third of that at sea level. "The primary problem is low oxygen," says Professor Frances Ashcroft, a physiologist at Oxford University. Low pressure would cause little more than discomfort in the ears and eyes, but the associated drop in oxygen levels makes people pass out if they do not put their oxygen masks on within about 15 seconds. While such rapid loss of pressure can be managed by the crew, "gradual loss of pressure is far more insidious," she says.

Dr Graham Braithwaite, an aviation safety expert at Cranfield University, agrees: "Pressure sensors work better if it's a sudden loss than a gradual one." If a warning does not sound, reduced oxygen levels are surprisingly easy to miss. When the pressure drops to the equivalent of about 3-6,000m altitude, the crew will still be awake, but will suffer from light-headedness, fatigue and euphoria. Under these conditions, the pilot will be too confused to fly the aircraft properly, and may not even realise there is a problem.

Several pioneers of hot air ballooning died during high-altitude flights, because their judgment was so clouded they could not tell when to put their oxygen masks on. Ashcroft speculates that this might explain what happened on Sunday.

The cause of the crash remains mysterious, though. "Loss of pressure shouldn't lead to a catastrophic loss like this," Braithwaite says. Pilots train for cabin pressure loss, and know to bring their aircraft down into thicker, warmer air.

and (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/15/AR2005081501435.html)


The loss of cabin pressure -- an apparent factor in the crash of a Helios Airways flight that killed 121 near Athens on Sunday -- is a rare event in commercial planes and requires a quick response, aviation experts said yesterday.

Airline crews are trained to don masks immediately when they hear the alarm that alerts the crew to a sudden loss of cabin pressure. Passengers and crew have more time to don their masks if the plane is flying at lower altitudes when decompression occurs.

Investigators in Athens said there were several signs a loss of cabin pressure could have caused the accident. Greek authorities said they do not believe the tragedy was a terrorist act, but they likely won't know the actual cause of the crash for months or longer.

Fighter pilots reported seeing the co-pilot slumped over his seat, and oxygen masks deployed in the cabin, according to news reports. The wreckage showed that oxygen masks had been deployed. The flight crew did not respond to repeated calls from air traffic control and fighter pilots who watched it descend from 34,000 feet until it hit the ground, a possible sign they were unconscious.

Developments yesterday hampered the inquiry, as the plane's cockpit voice recorder was reported to be in poor condition from the impact.

A coroner reported that a preliminary examination of six bodies indicated that the passengers were breathing and their blood was circulating before impact, according to a Reuters report. If cabin decompression was a factor, passengers and crew aboard the Boeing 737 did not have much time -- most likely, seconds -- to don oxygen masks, aviation experts said.

For example, passengers have 20 to 30 minutes to get the masks on if the plane is flying at 18,000 feet, while those on a plane flying at 35,000 feet would have 30 seconds to a minute because oxygen is more scarce at higher altitudes, according to Federal Aviation Administration research. After that, passengers could lose consciousness or have very little cognitive ability, according to FAA expert Rogers V. Shaw II.

A loss of oxygen, known as hypoxia, slows a person's physical responses and ability to think. Vision becomes impaired. Some people feel euphoric while others feel fatigue and dizziness. Some become nauseated and others hyperventilate.

Shaw said passengers can recover quickly if oxygen is restored soon enough. "If you get a couple breaths of oxygen, the recovery rate is instant," he said.

A loss of cabin pressure was determined to be the cause of a Learjet crash in 1999 carrying golfer Payne Stewart. In that case, the plane's crew did not respond to air traffic controllers shortly after being cleared to climb to 39,000 feet. The plane flew for nearly four hours before it crashed near Aberdeen, S.D., killing all aboard. The National Transportation Safety Board could not determine what caused the loss of cabin pressure.

The FAA requires one member of a flight crew to wear an oxygen mask when flying at 25,000 feet or above if the other crew member leaves the cockpit for any reason. It was unclear yesterday whether Greek officials have the same requirement.

Many passengers do not realize that the instructions they receive about how to put on the mask and tug on the line to get the flow of oxygen going should be carried out in a matter of seconds, experts said.

"That's why we say put on your own mask first and then assist a child," said Candace K. Kolander, coordinator of air safety, health and security for the Association of Flight Attendants. "If you don your child's first, then you could pass out and then you're good to no one. If for some reason the oxygen masks drop, it really is serious."

Kolander said that if a plane loses cabin pressure, passengers also should expect a drop in temperature and a quick descent as the flight crew tries to get the plane to a lower altitude, where there is more oxygen. The plane's emergency system should provide passengers with about 10 minutes of oxygen.

[1Parker1]

Ahh, interesting. Thanks for the explanations.

[chode_regulator]

My daughter flew on an airbus 330 last night from Dublin to Frankfurt. It was completely uneventful I am happy to say. I'm also glad I didn't know she was on an Airbus until she was halfway through that flight.
Why are you glad you didnt know?

Glad she got there OK.
Why wouldnt she have?


so my cousin is working at air france, he said they're trying to hide what happened, he said there was a problem (he doesn't know exactly what) and the plane disintegrated in the air 30 minutes after.
I call bullshit. What does he do at AF?


no oxygen if the cabin pressure drops
why do you oxygen bags fall down?

Not a lot of time to react could be part of the reason. Plus even if the passengers put on the oxygen it would have done them no good if the pilots didnt as well.
Heres a chart on oxygen and altitude
Altitude (ft) Time of Useful Consciousness
18,000 20-30 minutes
22,000 10 minutes
25,000 3-5 minutes
28,000 2-3 minutes
30,000 1-2 minutes
35,000 30 seconds to 1 minute
40,000 15-20 seconds
43,000 9-12 seconds
50,000 9-12 seconds

funny video here too, sorry ive forgotten how to embed youtube vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLQMupV3DLk

Ive been in there and watched the guy next to me be 100% sure that a square peg does fit in a round hole.

[sonic21]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/06/19/france.brazil.crash/index.html

PARIS, France (CNN) -- At least some of the bodies recovered from the Air France crash this month had broken bones, Brazilian authorities have told French investigators, evidence that suggests the flight broke apart before hitting the ocean.

Paul-Louis Arslanian, director of the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses, the French accident investigation board, said Thursday that Brazilian medical examiners had given that information to his agency.

Asked whether the information included reports that the recovered bodies from Flight 447 had fractures to arms, legs and hips, and few had any clothing, Arslanian said yes.

All of that, aviation experts have said, points to a mid-air rupture of the plane at about 35,000 feet.

There is still no explanation of what brought down the Airbus A330, which was en route from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, France when it crashed in the Atlantic on June 1.

Arslanian pleaded Thursday for the media and the public to stop speculation about the cause of the Air France (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Air_France_KLM_Group) crash.

A major Brazilian newspaper reported this week that 95 percent of the bodies so far had shown fractures in the legs, arms and hips similar to injuries found in people who fall from great heights. The newspaper O Estado de Sao Paulo cited unnamed officials who are part of the investigation.

Another clue is the low incidence of cranial trauma, the newspaper reported. If the aircraft had nose-dived into the ocean, victims would have more head injuries, the paper said.

A large number of bodies also had red lesions in their mucous membranes, which the paper said is usually associated with asphyxia, or lack of oxygen.

Another major Brazilian newspaper, the Jornal do Brasil, cited information from an unnamed person from the Brazilian military who has access to the teams working in the recovery of the plane. This person told the paper that bodies were found "mutilated" with no clothing, a strong indication of violent depressurization caused by a structural rupture.