Kobe Bryant : "Shaq would have never won without me" and "There is no GOAT"

[MiamiHeat]

Kobe Bryant, in an interview with Magic Johnson, said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"

Bryant also said, when talking about the greatest players of all time -

"It's impossible to say that one player is the best, you can't do it. Everybody brings different things, everybody is great in their own way"

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4226198

[BRHornet45]

LMAO whatever helps Kobe sleep at night .... everyone else knows the truth though. without Shaq the Lakers wouldn't have won any of them .... but without Kobe, one can argue that they would have won at least 1 or 2 if not all 3.

[poop]

everybody needs somebody sometimes.

[DeadlyDynasty]

LMAO whatever helps Kobe sleep at night .... everyone else knows the truth though. without Shaq the Lakers wouldn't have won any of them .... but without Kobe, one can argue that they would have won at least 1 or 2 if not all 3.

gotta disagree there bud...Shaq was undoubtedly numero uno in those days, but we NEEDED Kobe to get by Sacramento and San Antonio. Has there been a bigger Spur killer in NBA history than Kobe? Kobe also came up huge in the pivotal Game 4 of the NBA Finals in Indiana when Shaq fouled out. Kobe dazzled in OT and made the finals a foregone conclusion at that point. Like I said before, Shaq was #1, but we don't get those titles without Kobe.

[BRHornet45]

How many did Shaq win in Orlando with Penny. The truth is the Lakers sucked with Shaq as the go to guy. Utah owned them . Kobe came into his own and the Lakers could not lose.

son Shaq was still very young and only played 4 years in Orlando ... even then he at least got them to the finals at a very young age.

the fact is that Shaq pretty much single handedly won those 3 finals and his numbers prove it. of course Kobe helped, but he was nothing more than just a "sidekick" who rode Shaq's coattails to success. AT THE TIME, Kobe was basically "Scottie Pippen" to Shaq. Kobe has a LOT to prove in the rest of his career. He is already 0 for 1 in the finals without Shaq there to hold his hand every step of the way. if Kobe goes 0 for 2, then I think its safe to say that even most Kobe homers will start to admit the truth.

[David Bowie]

Um, Shaw did win 1 without Kobe with the Heat and Kobe has yet to win 1 without Shaq. All in all, these two deserve each other.

[BUMP]

LMAO whatever helps Kobe sleep at night .... everyone else knows the truth though. without Shaq the Lakers wouldn't have won any of them .... but without Kobe, one can argue that they would have won at least 1 or 2 if not all 3.

gotta disagree son.

Kobe is right. There is no way Shaq wins those titles without Kobe. They simply didnt have enough. Portland would've beaten them, San Antonio would've beat them, Sacramento would've beat them.

Sabonis, Divac, Dunca, Robinson would've neutralized Shaq enough and LA would have no other go to guy. IMO Kobe was even better back then, than he is now

[poop]

this whole subject is tired and retarded...bottom line is NO ONE can win 'on their own'. even wilt chamberlain, by far the most dominant beast ever to step on the court(relative to each's eras) only won 2 titles.

shaq and kobe needed each other.

shaq won one 'without kobe' but had Wade so theres no real difference, shaq needed Wade, wade needed shaq, jordan needed pippen, robinson needed duncan, etc etc.
lebron, the numbers baest that he is still wont win one until he has a sidekick.

no one wins one without another key player.

[JoeTait75]

Question: if you switched Kobe with Michael Finley or Vince Carter, would the Lake Show have still won those titles?

[DeadlyDynasty]

this whole subject is tired and retarded...bottom line is NO ONE can win 'on their own'. even wilt chamberlain, by far the most dominant beast ever to step on the court(relative to each's eras) only won 2 titles.

shaq and kobe needed each other.

shaq won one 'without kobe' but had Wade so theres no real difference, shaq needed Wade, wade needed shaq, jordan needed pippen, robinson needed duncan, etc etc.
lebron, the numbers baest that he is still wont win one until he has a sidekick.

no one wins one without another key player.

I thought Wilt's only title came with LA in 71-72? you may be right tho...

[DeadlyDynasty]

Question: if you switched Kobe with Michael Finley or Vince Carter, would the Lake Show have still won those titles?

good point...people think that LA could've thrown any decent wingman out there and still won those 3 rings. WRONG. Kobe's clutchness and cold-bloodedness carried the Lakers through the 4th quarters in the playoffs.

[LA24]

Kobe Bryant, in an interview with Magic Johnson, said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"


Bryant also said, when talking about the greatest players of all time -

"It's impossible to say that one player is the best, you can't do it. Everybody brings different things, everybody is great in their own way"


This differs from 2008, when Bryant said that MJ "is the greatest of all time"


Thoughts?

Link or Kobe never said it.

I call your bullshit again. That's doesn't seem like something Kobe would say about shaq. He may think it, but I doubt he'd say it like that.

[MiamiHeat]

Link or Kobe never said it.


http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4226198

Kobe doesn't think MJ is the GOAT anymore. LOL! Last year before the Finals, he said MJ was the goat. Now he thinks they are all equally good, and he's right there with them all.

The guy is so easy to see through, what a phony. I hope he falls flat on his face again

GO MAGIC

[E20]

Wow I think you guys totally misinterpeted what Kobe said in the given context.

I think Kobe meant that their championships in the Kobe/Shaq era were a team effort, that's why he also mentioned Horry and Fisher. He basically meant that Shaq needed everyone of his teammates to play at a championship level and so did Kobe, without any of them or without the way they preformed Shaq OR Kobe wouldn't have those 3 championships.


Also MJ is the GOAT.

[JamStone]

I was playing one-on-one at the playground with my 14 year old cousin and after I beat the snot out of him, he said I never would have won without Kobe. I said, "good game." Then he refused to shake my hand and pretended he dislocated his shoulder. I told him I was the best playground basketball player ever. He started crying and asked me if I could get a wheel chair then started screaming that there's no way to determine the best playground basketball player ever and that everyone is great in their own way. Then he left without speaking with reporters.

[Indazone]

Cue Rappin Shaq because y'know that fans want to hear the rebuttal from the other side.

"Kobe, tell me how my @$$ tastes!"

[The Franchise]

How many did Shaq win in Orlando with Penny. The truth is the Lakers sucked with Shaq as the go to guy. Utah owned them . Kobe came into his own and the Lakers could not lose.

Those Orlando teams had no bench whatsoever. Are you saying a prime healthy Hardaway in Kobes place wouldn't have won 3 titles with those Laker teams? Shit.

[MiamiHeat]

Wow I think you guys totally misinterpeted what Kobe said in the given context.

I think Kobe meant that their championships in the Kobe/Shaq era were a team effort, that's why he also mentioned Horry and Fisher. He basically meant that Shaq needed everyone of his teammates to play at a championship level and so did Kobe, without any of them or without the way they preformed Shaq OR Kobe wouldn't have those 3 championships.


Also MJ is the GOAT.

Kobe said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"

I call bullshit.

According to Kobe Bryant, Shaq would have won his first ring at age 34 with the Miami Heat in 2006, and then retire with only 1 ring, and no Finals Mvp's.

Shaq was too great for that. If not Kobe, then someone else would have built a team around Shaq.

[MiamiHeat]

anyone else laughing at Kobe's attempt to blur the lines of the GOAT talk?

Just last year in June, Kobe was talking about MJ as the GOAT.

Now he's saying pretty much 'we're all equal'

[LA24]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4226198

Kobe doesn't think MJ is the GOAT anymore. LOL! Last year before the Finals, he said MJ was the goat. Now he thinks they are all equally good, and he's right there with them all.

The guy is so easy to see through, what a phony. I hope he falls flat on his face again

GO MAGIC

Ok...my bad. My apologies. :toast

[Sec24Row7]

Replace Kobe from 00-03 with 04-07 Manu and they still win 3 titles

[E20]

Kobe said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"

I call bullshit.

According to Kobe Bryant, Shaq would have won his first ring at age 34 with the Miami Heat in 2006, and then retire with only 1 ring, and no Finals Mvp's.

Shaq was too great for that. If not Kobe, then someone else would have built a team around Shaq.

He also said: And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"

[Ice009]

gotta disagree there bud...Shaq was undoubtedly numero uno in those days, but we NEEDED Kobe to get by Sacramento and San Antonio. Has there been a bigger Spur killer in NBA history than Kobe? Kobe also came up huge in the pivotal Game 4 of the NBA Finals in Indiana when Shaq fouled out. Kobe dazzled in OT and made the finals a foregone conclusion at that point. Like I said before, Shaq was #1, but we don't get those titles without Kobe.

Exactly. In some series Kobe wouldn't have made as much of a difference, but if you took Kobe out against the Spurs then the Lakers probably lose at least two of those series.

Now the Spurs did a great job on Shaq, but in order to contain Shaq we kinda had to let Kobe roam around a bit and that is why he was able to have some monster games against us. So what I am saying is that Kobe was good against the Spurs, but party due to us having to focus most of our defensive attention on Shaq. Shaq was clearly the better player back then if you ask me because if you didn't pay great attention to him defensively he would dominate.

[daslicer]

I think Shaq could have won with any all-star swingman back then. Look at how Duncan won titles back in his prime with no superstars. Yeah we had Manu,Tony who would eventually would be all-star players but even back in '03 they weren't at that level. It was mainly due to Duncan's dominance that the spurs didn't need much more then solid performances out of those 2 to win it all. Shaq was pretty much equally as dominant as Duncan was during his prime. You could have paired him up with Tony and Manu or guys like Ray Allen, Tmac, Carter, Finley and I'm convinced he would have atleast won once or even more.

[Ghazi]

I dislike the what if you swap player A with player B, do they still win?!

It's hard to quantify.

[dirk4mvp]

Replace Kobe with T-Mac and they still win at least 3.

[sonic21]

for the "no goat" part, kobe just didnt wanna disrespect magic thats all

[MiamiHeat]

for the "no goat" part, kobe just didnt wanna disrespect magic thats all

Magic Johnson :

"There is Michael Jordan, and then there is the rest of us."

"Michael is the greatest player of all time."

[ElNono]

Replace Kobe with T-Mac and they still win at least 3.

Or AI, or Ray Allen, or Vince Carter, or Finley... all those guys BACK THEN could have won with Shaq and that surrounding cast. The only player I can think of from that time that could have replaced Shaq was Duncan.
The DRob and the Mailman were already on the decline and KG simply can't dominate like those other two.

[RsxPiimp]

2 words to the OP


READING COMPREHENSION

[sonic21]

Man if the Lakers win we are gonna have to put kobe haters on suicide watch.

[Ghazi]

You GUYS act like the Lakers BLITZED to championships.

They did in 2001 but 2000 and 2002 they easily could have NOT won a title. Who is to say Kobe's BRILLIANCE could be REPLICATED by some lesser players like VC or T-Mac! Keep in MIND that even if those players were SLIGHTLY worse than Kobe that could have easily meant NOT winning a championship in 2000 or 2002.

But I didn't have CABLE back THEN so I can't really COMMENT.

[cobbler]

Kobe doesnt wen without Shaq...Shaq doesnt win without Kobe..blah blah blah blah. Neither win without Horry or Shaw. And even with them all, they didnt win until Phil got there. What a bunch of hogwash to start throwing names in place of Kobe and say they could have won otherwise. Nobody knows for sure. It's all conjecture.

The only thing that truly matters is.....

THEY, not one, but all 12 WON!

[Sec24Row7]

Man if the Lakers win we are gonna have to put kobe haters on suicide watch.

I love Kobe's game... I just have that much respect for Manu.

[cobbler]

anyone else laughing at Kobe's attempt to blur the lines of the GOAT talk?

Just last year in June, Kobe was talking about MJ as the GOAT.

Now he's saying pretty much 'we're all equal'

No, actually laughing at your needing to bring it up 3 times in a thread. We got your point the first time. GOAT is nothin but speculative bullshit. You cannot compare eras. Impossible. Why Is Jordan the GOAT? Stats? Ther are players with better stats. Titles? Ther are players with more titles. Not to mention the differences in postitons. I don't get why people are so obsessed with this GOAT thing. It's impossible to determine.

[cobbler]

I thought Wilt's only title came with LA in 71-72? you may be right tho...

I believe Wilt won one with Philly in 66 or 67.

[Spursfan092120]

How many did Shaq win in Orlando with Penny. The truth is the Lakers sucked with Shaq as the go to guy. Utah owned them . Kobe came into his own and the Lakers could not lose.
Someone has forgotten Miami.

[Ghazi]

Miami didn't win SHIT

[Spursfan092120]

Magic Johnson :

"There is Michael Jordan, and then there is the rest of us."

"Michael is the greatest player of all time."
:toast:toast:toast

[Spursfan092120]

Miami didn't win SHIT
http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAHE095_8x10~2006-Miami-Heat-NBA-Champions-Posters.jpghttp://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAHE096_8x10~Shaquille-O-Neal-Pat-Riley-And-Dwayne-Wade-with-2006-NBA-Finals-Trophy-Posters.jpghttp://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2006/11/02/20061101194149.jpeghttp://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006/06/20/topper-heat.jpg

[NewJerSpur]

Kobe Bryant, in an interview with Magic Johnson, said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"


Bryant also said, when talking about the greatest players of all time -

"It's impossible to say that one player is the best, you can't do it. Everybody brings different things, everybody is great in their own way"


This differs from 2008, when Bryant said that MJ "is the greatest of all time"

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4226198

Thoughts?

Don't think I've ever agreed with Kobe more....actually I don't think I've ever been in agreement with him up to this point at all, LOL. For me unless you dominate every category statistically (on both sides of the ball) at some point it would be impossible to crown anyone as the greatest; until then someone will always be better than you at some aspect of the game. Just my 2 cents.

[daslicer]

Man if the Lakers win we are gonna have to put kobe haters on suicide watch.

I think I will be ok. I have experienced much worse shit in my life to be overly concerned about him winning.

[Kriz-Maxima]

So winning championships in basketball is a team effort?

What a travesty!

[j-money24]

shaq and kobe needed each other.

Exactly

[lefty]

How many did Shaq win in Orlando with Penny. The truth is the Lakers sucked with Shaq as the go to guy. Utah owned them . Kobe came into his own and the Lakers could not lose.
Didn't Kobe throw airball after airball in game 5 of the 1997 Western Semis vs Utah????

[JamStone]

I vaguely recall a fade-away three pointer that was an airball early in Kobe's career. If it was against Utah in 97, that would have been Kobe's rookie year. I also vaguely remember someone (perhaps one of the broadcasters) actually giving him praise for not being afraid to take the shot.

[DrHouse]

All I know is THIS forum is going to become a very interesting place if Kobe gets a ring this year.

Kobe haters FAVORITE snipe at him is the fact that he hasn't won a ring without Shaq. If they can't say that anymore all they are left with is the tired old rape jokes. Not nearly the same impact.

[daslicer]

All I know is THIS forum is going to become a very interesting place if Kobe gets a ring this year.

Kobe haters FAVORITE snipe at him is the fact that he hasn't won a ring without Shaq. If they can't say that anymore all they are left with is the tired old rape jokes. Not nearly the same impact.

Nothing will change really other then that you will be a permanent resident here for another year. Kobe will still be hated the same way just like he always has been. Kobe is mainly hated because of his narcissistic personality much like people still hated on Duncan after the third and fourth title due to his "boring" personality. In other words get over it some people are just hated for who they are and not because of their skill set like you try to spin it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Personally, if I were an LA fan, I wouldn't give two shits about what player other fans give credit for the 2000-2002 championships, all I would care about is the fact LA won it those three years. Just my two cents.

[DrHouse]

Nothing will change really other then that you will be a permanent resident here for another year. Kobe will still be hated the same way just like he always has been. Kobe is mainly hated because of his narcissistic personality much like people still hated on Duncan after the third and fourth title due to his "boring" personality. In other words get over it some people are just hated for who they are and not because of their skill set like you try to spin it.

Kobe is hated here because his skillset led directly to the Spurs being knocked out several times in the playoffs when they had chances to repeat.

His personality is no worse than LeCrab or any other superstar out there.

[JamStone]

Flawed logic. There are non Spurs fans on these boards that hate on Kobe too.

I think the major reason Kobe is hated on here is because of Kobe cocksucking fans and their irritating threads and posts. I've read several posters post that they don't even really hate the Lakers and that some even like Kobe, but it's the Kobe d-bag fans that lead them to hating on Kobe.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Flawed logic. There are non Spurs fans on these boards that hate on Kobe too.

I think the major reason Kobe is hated on here is because of Kobe cocksucking fans and their irritating threads and posts. I've read several posters post that they don't even really hate the Lakers and that some even like Kobe, but it's the Kobe d-bag fans that lead them to hating on Kobe.

Agreed.

Kobe is just one of the many examples of players I dislike largely because they have this annoying club of groupie apologists that are irritating to listen to. Amare and Nash are two great examples of this. If I didn't have to listen to a bunch of morons in Phoenix talk about Nash's great leadership and Amar""""e's great work ethic I probably wouldn't hate them so much.

[ElNono]

All I know is THIS forum is going to become a very interesting place if Kobe gets a ring this year.

This forum will be an interesting place regardless of what happens.

[Ghazi]

Nash is fuckin AWESOME

Fucking great player

see sig

[ElNono]

Flawed logic. There are non Spurs fans on these boards that hate on Kobe too.

I think the major reason Kobe is hated on here is because of Kobe cocksucking fans and their irritating threads and posts. I've read several posters post that they don't even really hate the Lakers and that some even like Kobe, but it's the Kobe d-bag fans that lead them to hating on Kobe.

+1 and let me add this same phenomena applies to the Lakers in general too.
I personally couldn't care less if the Lakers win it all. I actually think they play a very watchable kind of basketball. But it's the bipolar, apologists d-bag fans that really ruin it for me.

[LakerHater]

Kobe said

"The truth is, he(Shaq) never would have won without me. And we would have never won without anybody else, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher"

I call bullshit.

According to Kobe Bryant, Shaq would have won his first ring at age 34 with the Miami Heat in 2006, and then retire with only 1 ring, and no Finals Mvp's.

Shaq was too great for that. If not Kobe, then someone else would have built a team around Shaq.

Thats funny :lol cuz, Shaq has been in the playoffs every year he's been in the league!

[JamStone]

Thats funny :lol cuz, Shaq has been in the playoffs every year he's been in the league!

Except this year? :lol

[DrHouse]

I can say on THIS forum the Kobe hate stems entirely from Spur fans themselves and not because of anything Laker fans do or say. It's nice to rationalize that Kobe fans are the reason people hate Kobe but the reality is that most people here hate Kobe for what he's done to their teams and his smug and cocky attitude.

[Ghazi]

Thats funny :lol cuz, Shaq has been in the playoffs every year he's been in the league!

Not this year :bking

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I can say on THIS forum the Kobe hate stems entirely from Spur fans themselves and not because of anything Laker fans do or say. It's nice to rationalize that Kobe fans are the reason people hate Kobe but the reality is that most people here hate Kobe for what he's done to their teams and his smug and cocky attitude.

Kobe hasn't done anything to my team......and again Kobe isn't the only player I hate cause of his apologist fans.

[La Peace]

Replace Kobe from 00-03 with 04-07 Manu and they still win 3 titles

Spurs would 3peat.

[JamStone]

I can say on THIS forum the Kobe hate stems entirely from Spur fans themselves and not because of anything Laker fans do or say. It's nice to rationalize that Kobe fans are the reason people hate Kobe but the reality is that most people here hate Kobe for what he's done to their teams and his smug and cocky attitude.

As DoK mentioned, then Suns fans should love Kobe... ah, but they don't.

The Pistons have done really well against Kobe, but there are Pistons fans that hate on Kobe.

It really is about Kobe fans. Not only them, but they play a vital role in the hatred of Kobe. You continue to argue with poor logic.

[DrHouse]

As DoK mentioned, then Suns fans should love Kobe... ah, but they don't.

The Pistons have done really well against Kobe, but there are Pistons fans that hate on Kobe.

It really is about Kobe fans. Not only them, but they play a vital role in the hatred of Kobe. You continue to argue with poor logic.

Why would Suns fans love Kobe? That makes no sense.

And no the Kobe hate has absolutely nothing to do with people who are fans of Kobe. He was hated long before Colorado ever happened and long before he ever had the fanbase he has now.

He was hated because he came into this league with the audacity to think he could be better than MJ. The cockiness, arrogance, and smug attitude rubbed off the wrong way on people. People looked at Kobe and thought, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?", and naturally they rooted for him to fail and have done so ever since.

This has nothing to do with Kobe fans. That is pure deflection.

[JamStone]

You said people hate Kobe for what he's done to their teams.

The two most recent times Kobe has faced Phoenix in the playoffs, what happened? Why would they hate Kobe for losing to their team? What's the opposite of hate?

Kobe's arrogance and egomania play a role in it as well, no doubt. But, I'm saying a lot of hate on these boards is a product of Kobe fans. And, that's not deflection in the slightest.

I'm a Kobe fan. If you've read my past posts on Kobe on these boards, I'm one of his bigger apologists. I make the occasional joke at his expense, but when it comes to his game, play, skills, I defend the guy more times than not. And, I can see pretty clearly that Kobe hate is often generated in response to cocksucking Kobe fans and their warped sense of reality. Even now, it's your warped sense of reality that leads to your denial of that reality.

[Ghazi]

Fn4lhTPtpUU

[DrHouse]

You said people hate Kobe for what he's done to their teams.

The two most recent times Kobe has faced Phoenix in the playoffs, what happened? Why would they hate Kobe for losing to their team? What's the opposite of hate?

Kobe's arrogance and egomania play a role in it as well, no doubt. But, I'm saying a lot of hate on these boards is a product of Kobe fans. And, that's not deflection in the slightest.

I'm a Kobe fan. If you've read my past posts on Kobe on these boards, I'm one of his bigger apologists. I make the occasional joke at his expense, but when it comes to his game, play, skills, I defend the guy more times than not. And, I can see pretty clearly that Kobe hate is often generated in response to cocksucking Kobe fans and their warped sense of reality. Even now, it's your warped sense of reality that leads to your denial of that reality.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Kobe hate threads would still exist on this forum even if no Laker fan ever posted here.

And the Kobe hate is a cumulative thing. It mostly started because of the cocky and arrogant attitude he displayed when he first entered the league. It grew for Spur fans even greater when he dismantled them time and time again in the playoffs.

As far as Suns fans go, just because you beat a team in the playoffs doesn't mean you like their players. The Lakers have bitch slapped the Nuggets several times but that doesn't mean I like K-Mart, JR Smith, or the rest of the Thuggets anymore.

Your logic, reasoning, and debate skills suck Jamstone.

[cobbler]

And no the Kobe hate has absolutely nothing to do with people who are fans of Kobe. He was hated long before Colorado ever happened and long before he ever had the fanbase he has now.

He was hated because he came into this league with the audacity to think he could be better than MJ. The cockiness, arrogance, and smug attitude rubbed off the wrong way on people. People looked at Kobe and thought, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?", and naturally they rooted for him to fail and have done so ever since.

This has nothing to do with Kobe fans. That is pure deflection.

I rarely agree with House's rantings but he is spot on here. Kobe is hated becuase of his cocky arrogance. Add to that all the media hype and winning and it's human nature to try to bring people like that down a peg or two.

Not at all unlike what the darling boy Lebron has gone through this week (minus the winning of course).

And to all you who say you hate him because of a fanbase... Wow! Just WOW. You actually let fans you don't know from another team determine your admiration level for a particular players skills and/or accomplishments? That you could let people you despise determine what you do and dont like is pure weakness of character. So sad.

[JamStone]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Kobe hate threads would still exist on this forum even if no Laker fan ever posted here.

And the Kobe hate is a cumulative thing. It mostly started because of the cocky and arrogant attitude he displayed when he first entered the league. It grew for Spur fans even greater when he dismantled them time and time again in the playoffs.

As far as Suns fans go, just because you beat a team in the playoffs doesn't mean you like their players. The Lakers have bitch slapped the Nuggets several times but that doesn't mean I like K-Mart, JR Smith, or the rest of the Thuggets anymore.

Your logic, reasoning, and debate skills suck Jamstone.

It was exaggeration to prove a point. And why did you change your argument? First the hate was about what Kobe did to the "haters'" teams. Once refuted, you simply ignored that and just went back only to the Kobe is cocky argument. At least admit it's not because of what Kobe did to the teams of fans who hate on him.

I would be more than agreeable that Kobe hate is a cumulative thing. And, one of those things is responding to Kobe cocksucking fans. That's part of it, a big part of it.

If no Laker fan was on these boards, people would still make fun of Kobe, but there wouldn't be near the venom. Most of the hate on Kobe is in response to Kobe fans. Just accept it already.

[DrHouse]

It was exaggeration to prove a point. And why did you change your argument? First the hate was about what Kobe did to the "haters'" teams. Once refuted, you simply ignored that and just went back only to the Kobe is cocky argument. At least admit it's not because of what Kobe did to the teams of fans who hate on him.

I would be more than agreeable that Kobe hate is a cumulative thing. And, one of those things is responding to Kobe cocksucking fans. That's part of it, a big part of it.

If no Laker fan was on these boards, people would still make fun of Kobe, but there wouldn't be near the venom. Most of the hate on Kobe is in response to Kobe fans. Just accept it already.

There aren't any Kobe-only fans on this forum.

[KidCongo]

Kobe's great. His fans aren't.

[MambaJuice2408]

son Shaq was still very young and only played 4 years in Orlando ... even then he at least got them to the finals at a very young age.

the fact is that Shaq pretty much single handedly won those 3 finals and his numbers prove it. of course Kobe helped, but he was nothing more than just a "sidekick" who rode Shaq's coattails to success. AT THE TIME, Kobe was basically "Scottie Pippen" to Shaq. Kobe has a LOT to prove in the rest of his career. He is already 0 for 1 in the finals without Shaq there to hold his hand every step of the way. if Kobe goes 0 for 2, then I think its safe to say that even most Kobe homers will start to admit the truth.

Shaq went 0-1 in his first finals of his career, so did Lebron. Kobe went 0-1 last year. Kobe wins this year and he doesn't have to prove much. Thats the truth

[Jloyola]

Miami didn't win SHIT


Oh Ghazi.... you're right Dallas beat Miami in 2006:smokin

[Jloyola]

this forum will be an interesting place regardless of what happens.

agreed!

[MiamiHeat]

Shaq went 0-1 in his first finals of his career, so did Lebron. Kobe went 0-1 last year. Kobe wins this year and he doesn't have to prove much. Thats the truth

0-2

Kobe was the #1 option, and Shaq was #2 in 2004.

[MambaJuice2408]

0-2

Kobe was the #1 option, and Shaq was #2 in 2004.]]

It was Shaqs team

[mavsfan1000]

They could win without each other. Kobe would need Gasol while Shaq would need Wade. You need that second go-to guy.

[TheMACHINE]

my 2 cents. Kobe showed that he can get to the finals atleast twice without a Hall of Famer next to him. Yes, he hasnt won anything..but i think that shows alot.

[MiamiHeat]

]]

It was Shaqs team

Wrong. In 2004, that's when Kobe was crying and whining about sacrificing his game while Shaq comes to camp out of shape.


In 2004, for the first time in the NBA Finals, the Lakers ran the offense through Kobe, and it failed horribly.

During the championship 3-peat, Shaq always took the most shots.

[MiamiHeat]

my 2 cents. Kobe showed that he can get to the finals atleast twice without a Hall of Famer next to him. Yes, he hasnt won anything..but i think that shows alot.

Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, etc

one of the top 2 most stacked teams in the league. As soon as the Pau Gasol trade was made, everyone and their grandmother knew the Lakers were going to the Finals and winning it all.

Lakers got there, but failed.

[PM5K]

http://upperdeckblogs.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/michael_jordan_trophy_rings.jpg

=

http://zuberdhumde.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/goat.jpg

[/THREAD]

[Lars]

Kobe shouldn't feel bad, he is almost as good as Clyde Drexler. Thats pretty good.

[TheMACHINE]

Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, etc

one of the top 2 most stacked teams in the league. As soon as the Pau Gasol trade was made, everyone and their grandmother knew the Lakers were going to the Finals and winning it all.

Lakers got there, but failed.

yah..having Wade was horrible. LOL =P

[ChrisRichards]

Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, etc

one of the top 2 most stacked teams in the league. As soon as the Pau Gasol trade was made, everyone and their grandmother knew the Lakers were going to the Finals and winning it all.

Lakers got there, but failed.
EXACTLY!

KObe has 2 All Stars in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. OF course he should reach the finals. Give Wade those players and Im sure they'll win it all last year.

[MambaJuice2408]

Wrong. In 2004, that's when Kobe was crying and whining about sacrificing his game while Shaq comes to camp out of shape.


In 2004, for the first time in the NBA Finals, the Lakers ran the offense through Kobe, and it failed horribly.

During the championship 3-peat, Shaq always took the most shots.

Wrong bro, shaq was out of shape in 03. We lost to Spurs that year.

Shaq took the most shots because he had Rik Smits, Motumbo, and Whoever the Nets hard guarding him. I want to say Todd McCoullough.

No where near the defensive stalwarts of The Wallace Boys in 04...
It was still Shaqs team. I think he would admit that

[MambaJuice2408]

EXACTLY!

KObe has 2 All Stars in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. OF course he should reach the finals. Give Wade those players and Im sure they'll win it all last year.

Lamar Odom= 0 Allstar appearances. Nuff said.

In order to be considered an All-Star you have to play like an All-Star when it counts. You can't honestly say that they did that, can you?

[MambaJuice2408]

Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, etc

one of the top 2 most stacked teams in the league. As soon as the Pau Gasol trade was made, everyone and their grandmother knew the Lakers were going to the Finals and winning it all.

Lakers got there, but failed.

I must be too pessimistic because I never thought we were a lock to win the Finals. Especially considering we didn't have homecourt and seeing how they dominated the regular season matchup.

[KSeal]

EXACTLY!

KObe has 2 All Stars in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. OF course he should reach the finals. Give Wade those players and Im sure they'll win it all last year.

Lamar Odom is not an all star. Never has been and never will be. He plays about two games a year where he puts up 25 and 12 and everyone thinks he's amazing. The man is the most consistently inconsistent player ever. A nice third or forth option but not an all star by any means.

[Amaso]

Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, etc

one of the top 2 most stacked teams in the league. As soon as the Pau Gasol trade was made, everyone and their grandmother knew the Lakers were going to the Finals and winning it all.

Lakers got there, but failed.

First of all, you act like Derek Fisher is good... and obviously you didn't watch the NBA last year otherwise you would've noticed Bynum wasn't even playing.

[21_Blessings]

Question: if you switched Kobe with Michael Finley or Vince Carter, would the Lake Show have still won those titles?

Nope. You can also add T-Mac tot he list. None of those players could facilitate the triangle or play defense like Kobe. Nor could they close games likes Kobe. Would have lost to Portland. Would have lost to SA. Would have lost to Sacramento.

Now let's flip that around. Switch Shaq for Duncan/KG and does Kobe still win 3?

[ambchang]

Shaq would have won without Kobe in 01. 15-1 in the playoffs that year.
And LOL about Shaq struggling in 04 Finals. He didn't average 35ppg, but he still commanded double teams throughout, shot a high percentage, and scored like 28ppg or something to that effect.

[ElNono]

Nope. You can also add T-Mac tot he list. None of those players could facilitate the triangle or play defense like Kobe. Nor could they close games likes Kobe. Would have lost to Portland. Would have lost to SA. Would have lost to Sacramento.

I doubt it. After all the Sacramento series was eventually decided by Horry.
Pippen was still available back then, who knew the triangle better than anybody and could play defense just as good as Kobe, if not better.
The Kobe circa year 2000 was not the same complete player of today. (and this is a big credit to Kobe, who worked into being a more complete player)
You most definitely could have replaced him with a handful of guys.


Now let's flip that around. Switch Shaq for Duncan/KG and does Kobe still win 3?

Not with KG. Duncan, very likely. But we're talking about two irreplaceable bigs that have dominated this league for the past 10 or so years.

[Ice009]

0-2

Kobe was the #1 option, and Shaq was #2 in 2004.

LOL that post is so simple yet so correct.

This my friends is 100% spot on. That's why the Lakers lost that series cause Kobe was the number 1 option. I recall watching those games and Shaq was shooting something like 65% and was wondering why the fuck is Shaq not getting the ball? He is pretty much scoring whenever he gets the ball, but there is Kobe jacking up jump shots and missing them all.

THAT IS a big reason why people don't like Kobe. He was selfish and still is. he's not a natural passer like Lebron who is looking to get him teammates involved. The only reason Kobe is trying to pass the ball now is because he realizes he can't win shit with him going one on one all the time otherwise he would probably still be trying to go one on one.

[Ice009]

]]

It was Shaqs team

If it was Shaq's team why was Kobe jacking up jumper after jumper while O'neal was shooting over 60% for the series???

[Ice009]

Wrong. In 2004, that's when Kobe was crying and whining about sacrificing his game while Shaq comes to camp out of shape.


In 2004, for the first time in the NBA Finals, the Lakers ran the offense through Kobe, and it failed horribly.

During the championship 3-peat, Shaq always took the most shots.

Wow you're spot on again man. Someone was actually watching that series properly.

Like I said in my previous post I'm pretty sure I saw a stat put up in one of the Detroit games where Shaq was shooting over 60% for the series and was wondering why he is not getting the ball every time down the court.

[Ice009]

I doubt it. After all the Sacramento series was eventually decided by Horry.
Pippen was still available back then, who knew the triangle better than anybody and could play defense just as good as Kobe, if not better.
The Kobe circa year 2000 was not the same complete player of today. (and this is a big credit to Kobe, who worked into being a more complete player)
You most definitely could have replaced him with a handful of guys.



Not with KG. Duncan, very likely. But we're talking about two irreplaceable bigs that have dominated this league for the past 10 or so years.

I agree With Tim yes, KG no way.

Tim and Shaq are the best two players of this generation. They were the two best low post players in the NBA and could also dominate defensively. Tim was a lot more consistent on the defensive end though, but Shaq was pretty good when he tried his ass off on D. KG has no post game and wasn't as good as Tim or even Shaq at their best defensively. KG is a better defender now than he was back then.

[Jacko]

At the time the Lakers won those championships there was NO ACTIVE PLAYER you could have replaced Kobe with and guaranteed 3 straight championships. None.

No D-Wade, no Lebron, Vince Carter...are you fucking kidding me?, T-Whack...give me a fucking break this guy has been a career LOSER his entire life. Nobody.

Shaq and Kobe were irreplaceable at the time.

[Strike]

I was playing one-on-one at the playground with my 14 year old cousin and after I beat the snot out of him, he said I never would have won without Kobe. I said, "good game." Then he refused to shake my hand and pretended he dislocated his shoulder. I told him I was the best playground basketball player ever. He started crying and asked me if I could get a wheel chair then started screaming that there's no way to determine the best playground basketball player ever and that everyone is great in their own way. Then he left without speaking with reporters.

That sums up everything! Good work!

/Thread

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Like I said in my previous post I'm pretty sure I saw a stat put up in one of the Detroit games where Shaq was shooting over 60% for the series and was wondering why he is not getting the ball every time down the court.

Kobe played like shit during the 2004 finals but it's not like he was the only reason LA lost. Karl Malone's injury forced them to start a useless douche that's not even D-league material. It also didn't help Gary Payton and George couldn't hit water if they were shooting from a boat.

Kobe shouldn't get all the blame for Shaq not getting more touches. Payton was a disaster running the triangle and George was just a disaster period.

[Jacko]

Kobe played like shit during the 2004 finals but it's not like he was the only reason LA lost. Karl Malone's injury forced them to start a useless douche that's not even D-league material. It also didn't help Gary Payton and George couldn't hit water if they were shooting from a boat.

Kobe shouldn't get all the blame for Shaq not getting more touches. Payton was a disaster running the triangle and George was just a disaster period.

Sshhh Kobe haters don't like reality.

Having Malone on the floor would have helped immensely as it would have given the Lakers a legitimate threat at the PF spot. The triangle spacing was quite awful in that series and as a result the Pistons were able to load up on Kobe and Shaq.

[Strike]

Thats funny :lol cuz, Shaq has been in the playoffs every year he's been in the league!

Wrong. Not this year. And not his rookie year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sshhh Kobe haters don't like reality.

I'm not a Kobe fan at all and at times I'm a hater, but no matter who the player is I'm not a fan of blind hatred at all. Placing the 2004 finals loss squarely on Kobe's shoulder's is blind hatred.

[Ghazi]

Pau Gasol might be a hall of famer FWIW

[Ice009]

Kobe played like shit during the 2004 finals but it's not like he was the only reason LA lost. Karl Malone's injury forced them to start a useless douche that's not even D-league material. It also didn't help Gary Payton and George couldn't hit water if they were shooting from a boat.

Kobe shouldn't get all the blame for Shaq not getting more touches. Payton was a disaster running the triangle and George was just a disaster period.

lol whatever. I also recall one of the commentators after that stat was put up saying that one of the Laker coaches suggested that Kobe needs to get Shaq the ball more.

[Ice009]

I'm not a Kobe fan at all and at times I'm a hater, but no matter who the player is I'm not a fan of blind hatred at all. Placing the 2004 finals loss squarely on Kobe's shoulder's is blind hatred.

Who the fuck put the whole finals loss on Kobe? Kobe did deserve quite a bit of the blame though.

Don't go acting like he didn't deserve any blame. He was shooting a piss poor percentage yet he kept jacking up shots while Shaq was shooting over 60% from the field. You tell me now how Kobe should not have passed Shaq the ball and kept shooting 40% or whatever he shot. Karl Malone's injury stopped Kobe from passing the ball to Shaq on all those jump shots huh???????

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Don't go acting like he didn't deserve any blame.

He def. deserves blame but IMO Karl Malone's injury and the role players not showing up were two bigger factors.

[Ice009]

He def. deserves blame but IMO Karl Malone's injury and the role players not showing up were two bigger factors.

So Karl Malone's injury made Kobe not pass the ball to Shaq?

What I recall most about that series is Kobe's ball hogging and missing jumper after jumper. It was stupid basketball on Kobe's part. I don't see how you could not acknowledge that, that was a big reason for their loss.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So Karl Malone's injury made Kobe not pass the ball to Shaq?

What I recall most about that series is Kobe's ball hogging and missing jumper after jumper.

Karl Malone's injury made it so Detroit could stuff the paint and deny Shaq the ball a lot better than they could have with Malone. Look Kobe sure as hell didn't play well or anything close to it but the role players on the court being so useless that it was easier to stop Kobe's penetration and a lot easier to defend an entry pass sure as hell perpetuated the problem.

[TheMACHINE]

EXACTLY!

KObe has 2 All Stars in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. OF course he should reach the finals. Give Wade those players and Im sure they'll win it all last year.

:lol:lmao:rollin:blah

[JamStone]

I don't think a healthy Karl Malone would have made a difference considering how both teams were playing at that point. The Lakers should have beaten the Pistons regardless. It was how the Lakers were playing bad basketball versus how perfect team chemistry was with that Pistons team. That was also a very poorly coached Lakers team. Phil Jackson didn't make any adjustments because he thought the talent disparity would eventually make the difference. Kobe takes most of the blame for 2004. The injury to Karl Malone, in my opinion, is pretty far down the list of reasons why the Lakers lost in 2004.

[MiamiHeat]

So Karl Malone's injury made Kobe not pass the ball to Shaq?

What I recall most about that series is Kobe's ball hogging and missing jumper after jumper. It was stupid basketball on Kobe's part. I don't see how you could not acknowledge that, that was a big reason for their loss.

:toast

[Jacko]

I don't think a healthy Karl Malone would have made a difference considering how both teams were playing at that point. The Lakers should have beaten the Pistons regardless. It was how the Lakers were playing bad basketball versus how perfect team chemistry was with that Pistons team. That was also a very poorly coached Lakers team. Phil Jackson didn't make any adjustments because he thought the talent disparity would eventually make the difference. Kobe takes most of the blame for 2004. The injury to Karl Malone, in my opinion, is pretty far down the list of reasons why the Lakers lost in 2004.

Malone would have made all the difference.

The triangle spacing got completely fucked up the moment he went down. Nobody could make those elbow jumpers like Malone and it allowed the Pistons to load up on Shaq and Kobe without fear of someone else going off. Plus Malone's defense is highly underrated.

You claim to be a Laker fan but post some of the worst takes I've ever seen, and this is from someone who actually visits LG pretty frequently.

[Killakobe81]

I think Shaq could have won with any all-star swingman back then. Look at how Duncan won titles back in his prime with no superstars. Yeah we had Manu,Tony who would eventually would be all-star players but even back in '03 they weren't at that level. It was mainly due to Duncan's dominance that the spurs didn't need much more then solid performances out of those 2 to win it all. Shaq was pretty much equally as dominant as Duncan was during his prime. You could have paired him up with Tony and Manu or guys like Ray Allen, Tmac, Carter, Finley and I'm convinced he would have atleast won once or even more.

Silly argument above.
Duncan is a BETTER all-around player that is why he won with no kobe or Wade ...
Shaq has never won a title ...or even made a FINALS without the development of Penny, Kobe then Wade. Before that he got swept out of the playoffs on a REGULAR basis.
And agree wiytth many other even MJ never won by himself.

[Killakobe81]

EXACTLY!

KObe has 2 All Stars in Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol. OF course he should reach the finals. Give Wade those players and Im sure they'll win it all last year.

Odom has NEVER made an all-star team ...In facxct Marc stein wrote he is one of the better players to never to make it. He was names to the USA squad but he got hurt then lost his son ...highest honors he ver has got ten but i think he was robbed one year in Miami ...

[ChrisRichards]

THat's not the point here

Kobe said MJ was the GOAT last year in the Celtics-Lakers finals. People were still questioning if Kobe actually changed or not when he won the MVP. Many people said he's the same player, but just that the Lakers are better because of + Gasol and Fisher. Kobe is seen as a hugely egotistical and arrogant player.

So when he said MJ was the greatest, people were starting to think he changed from his past ways.

so this year, now he's saying "It's impossible to pick one"

???? Flip flopper. He wants to blur the lines between himself and MJ because his ego is so large he competes with Pharoah Ramses.

[jmill]

Shaq's twitter


What kobe said to magic is true, I wouldn't of won it without him fish and robert horry, and b shaw and fox and everybody dynasty baby


thats right i am saying it today and today only, i want kobe bryant to get number 4, spread da word

/Thread

[21_Blessings]

Malone would have made all the difference.

The triangle spacing got completely fucked up the moment he went down. Nobody could make those elbow jumpers like Malone and it allowed the Pistons to load up on Shaq and Kobe without fear of someone else going off. Plus Malone's defense is highly underrated.

You claim to be a Laker fan but post some of the worst takes I've ever seen, and this is from someone who actually visits LG pretty frequently.

He's not a Lakers fan, just likes to troll Lakers fan.

And regarding Malone, not only does his presence completely change Detroit's scheme due to him spreading the floor, Rasheed Wallace was torching the Lakers that series to the point where Shaq was forced to guard him. Then you had Luke Walton playing minutes getting tore up by Corliss fucking Williamson. That doesn't happen with a healthy Malone.

Not to mention, he was the Lakers 2nd best rebounder. I mean come on, Slava started game 5 of the NBA FINALS. He's been out of the league for years and was never NBA material to begin with.

[Biggems]

I dont think Shaq wins without Kobe, nor does Kobe win without Shaq.....they were the Lakers version of Jordan/Pippen.....a dynamic duo that was Championship calibur. You need both to win. One without the other is great, but not CHAMPIONSHIP GREAT. Jordan won zero without Pippen, Pippen won zero without Jordan. Together they won 6, sharing double 3peats.

Yes Shaq won in Miami, but it was the Dwayne Wade show really. Wade just needed that little extra oomph, and Shaq gave it to him....well so did the refs.

Those Lakers teams needed both Shaq and Kobe to be successful, and both were of equal value to the team. Shaq was THE MAN back then, but Kobe was the assassin. It wasn't Shaq that ripped the hearts out of all us Spurs fans, it was Kobe. Go back and watch 2001 and 2002. In several of those games, it was Kobe who owned us in the 4th quarter and stuck the dagger deep inside our hearts....and eventually shoved his hand in our chests and ripped em out.

[Louae]

Question: if you switched Kobe with Michael Finley or Vince Carter, would the Lake Show have still won those titles?

no

[TampaDude]

I dont think Shaq wins without Kobe, nor does Kobe win without Shaq.....they were the Lakers version of Jordan/Pippen.....a dynamic duo that was Championship calibur. You need both to win. One without the other is great, but not CHAMPIONSHIP GREAT. Jordan won zero without Pippen, Pippen won zero without Jordan. Together they won 6, sharing double 3peats.

Yes Shaq won in Miami, but it was the Dwayne Wade show really. Wade just needed that little extra oomph, and Shaq gave it to him....well so did the refs.

Those Lakers teams needed both Shaq and Kobe to be successful, and both were of equal value to the team. Shaq was THE MAN back then, but Kobe was the assassin. It wasn't Shaq that ripped the hearts out of all us Spurs fans, it was Kobe. Go back and watch 2001 and 2002. In several of those games, it was Kobe who owned us in the 4th quarter and stuck the dagger deep inside our hearts....and eventually shoved his hand in our chests and ripped em out.

TEAMS win championships.

[Nahtanoj]

Shaq's twitter





/Thread

[Gino]

:lol:lmao:rollin:blah

Thats probably true.

Wade with Gasol and Odom would definitely be the favorite to come out of the east. And they probably would have fought better than LAs game 6 "phone-in".

[RedsLakers24]

Thats probably true.

Wade with Gasol and Odom would definitely be the favorite to come out of the east. And they probably would have fought better than LAs game 6 "phone-in".

Give Wade Kwame Brown, Smush Paker, Luke Walton and Lamar Odom in the Starting line up and we will see what happens, maybe another lottery team

[MiamiHeat]

Give Wade Kwame Brown, Smush Paker, Luke Walton and Lamar Odom in the Starting line up and we will see what happens, maybe another lottery team

Wade already had Lamar Odom, during his rookie year.

They reached Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals.

[RedsLakers24]

Wade already had Lamar Odom, during his rookie year.

They reached Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals.

Yeah Lamar is pretty good when he is on, but the rest of the starting lineup is just pathetic, Kwame, Smush, and Walton, and off the bench with Brian Cook

[DrHouse]

Hey Gino how are the fish?

Ready to enjoy another 2 decades of sucktitude? Eh, you probably jumped off the bandwagon already like the rest of your pale, ugly, retaaarded fans.

:lmao at KG guaranteeing the next two titles. He and Mo Williams need to create the All-Douche NBA team.