washington wants manu for the 5th pick

[purple_blaze_98]

One thing that's not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides.

http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=523

i wasn't sure if i should post it here or in the think tank thingy so.. feel free to move it or w/e. :)

[PM5K]

I don't keep close track of the draft, but isn't this years draft not that deep?

[Ditty]

One thing that's not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides.

http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=523

i wasn't sure if i should post it here or in the think tank thingy so.. feel free to move it or w/e. :)

i would do it if we can get james harden

[Blackjack]

Well, if the Spurs don't think they've got a realistic shot at a title next year, this wouldn't be such a horrible idea.

You get the 5th pick to upgrade your roster with a nice prospect, probably get something/someone else of value, then you bring Manu back after his contract is up.(Manu's own Elliott-like stint:smokin)

[Bukefal]

Many will be yelling when someone says something about letting manu go. I dont hate, but I dont think this would be such a bad idea. This is to consider.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Many will be yelling when someone says something about letting manu go. I dont hate, but I dont think this would be such a bad idea. This is to consider.

Not really. Washington are way over the cap, they cannot absorb Manu's contract just for the pick, they'll have to send salary back and they will most likely use their 5th pick in a bad draft year as a sweetener for someone taking on one of their awful contracts, Antawn Jamison, who is owed over $40 mil for the next 3 years.

[timtonymanu]

im one of the few that rather sees Manu stay a Spur his whole career.

sadly our big 3 are the only tradeable assets. maybe Hill but the Spurs need to keep him too.

[baseline bum]

I'm ok with trading Manu, but no way Washington makes that deal with Harden on the table. Manu's body has crapped out on the Spurs two seasons in a row now, and he's on the wrong side of 30. Trading him probably writes off the 2009-10 season, but I have always felt like Buford wrote it off already (along with the 2008-09 season) by deciding to hoard capspace for 2010-11.

[Mr. Body]

Shitty draft. A #5 this year is like end of the lottery any other year.

[kobyz]

Jorden Hill(the 5th pick), DeShawn Stevenson, Etan Thomas(expiring contract) fot Manu Ginobili.
maybe we should do it consider Manu injuring problems. we would get a very talented athletic big man who will be great next to Duncan and for our future, we would get a good SG who have small contract and can be a started and we would get a defensive big man with expiring contract that will keep our 2010 options open.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Jorden Hill(the 5th pick), DeShawn Stevenson, Etan Thomas(expiring contract) fot Manu Ginobili.
maybe we should do it consider Manu injuring problems. we would get a very talented athletic big man who will be great next to Duncan and for our future, we would get a good SG who have small contract and can be a started and we would get a defensive big man with expiring contract that will keep our 2010 options open.

OK, why would Washington do it? They don't save any money, they only "hire" Manu for one season and lose a "very talented athletic big man" like you said. What's in it for them? They'd only do it if they get rid of A.Jamison in the deal.

[KidCongo]

Spurs could get Haywood aswell probably.

[Chieflion]

Bullshit. Only thing possible is us losing the trade.

[kobyz]

OK, why would Washington do it? They don't save any money, they only "hire" Manu for one season and lose a "very talented athletic big man" like you said. What's in it for them? They'd only do it if they get rid of A.Jamison in the deal.

they said that they want a proven player for the 5th pick and they already have talented young bigs on their roster.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

they said that they want a proven player for the 5th pick and they already have talented young bigs on their roster.

Who are these talented young big men they have? Blatche and Pecherov? Seriously? They actually do have a talented SG they'd do well to develop, though, in Nick Young.

There is only one thing they'd want for the 5th pick - cap relief.

[superjames1992]

Yeah, great idea. Let's get rid of a star to take our chances on a potential star which may or may not turn out to be any good and could be a complete bust. Let's trade a good thing for an unsure thing...

[kobyz]

Who are these talented young big men they have? Blatche and Pecherov? Seriously? They actually do have a talented SG they'd do well to develop, though, in Nick Young.

There is only one thing they'd want for the 5th pick - cap relief.

you forgot JaVale McGee

[stretch]

washington seems to really wanna trade that pick away. they must need some serious cap relief

[Steve-O-Matic]

Manu for the #5 pick? I'd do that in a heartbeat!!

[Libri]

washington seems to really wanna trade that pick away. they must need some serious cap relief

They will be over $75 million in salaries for the 2009-10 season and they suck. Mike James has a player option worth over $6 million. So, they will have to make some moves if they want to improve.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

i would do it if we can get james harden

James Harden would be a great Manu replacement, and this is coming from a UA student who's had to watch Harden kill his team for two years. Harden fits the Spurs' ideal profile, extremely high bball IQ, cares first and foremost about his team, plays great defense, and he's not overly cocky.

[ElNono]

I still don't understand why the Spurs would want to do this, unless they can re-trade that 5th pick for a solid veteran with a reasonable contract. This current Spurs team is not in the business of developing talent right now. And this draft being as weak as it is, I don't see how teams might want give up a reasonable contract in order to trade up.

[GSH]

I was pretty angry when Manu decided to play last Summer, but would still like to see him retire a Spur. It's already been mentioned that the Spurs would have to take on one of the Wizard's crap contracts to make this work. Plus, I think that there is a good chance that Harden will go at #4. Raise your hand if you want to trade Manu for Tyreke Evans or Brandon Jennings.

But, hey... maybe Antawn Jamison would put us right over the top.

[Libri]

The first year salary for the 5th pick for the 2009-10 season will be $2,724,300. Therefore the 5th pick will be able to sign a contract for as little as $2,179,440 and as much as $3,269,160. According to the CBA, picks are usually signed at the maximum figure. This has to be taken into consideration when making a trade. Please correct these figures if they are wrong.

[Yuixafun]

Manu for a 5th pick...?

-click-

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Plus, I think that there is a good chance that Harden will go at #4.

Which is why it still is bad trade for the Spurs. I think he's going #3 to the Thunder since he's basically the perfect compliment to Westbrook. OKC is gonna be stacked in few years if that happens. If only the Suns hired Presti instead of Kerr.

[loveforthegame]

It depends on what they were asking for us to take back but I'd have to consider this.

Jordan Hill, Earl Clark would be hard to pass up with the 5th pick.

[ducks]

well well well
if washington is willing to trade a 5 pick to the spurs for manu
would raptors be willing to trade bosh for manu

[DPG21920]

How does this help the Spurs win now?

[DPG21920]

well well well
if washington is willing to trade a 5 pick to the spurs for manu
would raptors be willing to trade bosh for manu

No.

[ducks]

How does this help the Spurs win now?

the 5 pick could actually play in the playoffs
and not be on the bench hurt :downspin:

[Yuixafun]

...cuts off the nose to spite the face etc.

[DPG21920]

the 5 pick could actually play in the playoffs
and not be on the bench hurt :downspin:

Spurs could get guys who are healthy who can play in the playoffs and not have to trade Manu.

The question with that method vs the 5th pick is how effective would they really be? More than likely both would not be effective enough to be clutch in the playoffs.

[ducks]

There have been widespread reports that Phoenix could deal center Amare Stoudemire to the Wizards for forward Antawn Jamison, the No. 5 overall draft pick and guard Mike James and his expiring contract. When asked if the deal seemed like anything more than a rumor, a Western Conference executive put it this way: "It's a definite possibility, I guess."
same article

[hater]

damn, Manu, Arenas, Butler, Jamison

bad ass motherfuckin team

[loveforthegame]

They'll probably just stay pat another year and hope that Ginobli is healthy this time around.

[ducks]

Spurs could get guys who are healthy who can play in the playoffs and not have to trade Manu.

The question with that method vs the 5th pick is how effective would they really be? More than likely both would not be effective enough to be clutch in the playoffs.

spurs should have a player being paid 9-10 million healthy for the playoffs

spurs could get someone better then 5 pick but who knows

one thing is for sure now is maybe other teams will star calling about manu
and try to offer something better then the washington rumor

[kobyz]

damn, Manu, Arenas, Butler, Jamison

bad ass motherfuckin team

you forgot JaVale McGee

[ducks]

damn, Manu, Arenas, Butler, Jamison

bad ass motherfuckin team

chances that team is healthy for playoffs
5%

[TMTTRIO]

One thing to remember before getting rid of Ginobili for a draft pick is even if this draft pick is very talented and going to be a star in the future it takes them at least a year for them to learn the system with the Spurs. Do you really want them to wait a year or two for him to develop.

[ducks]

One thing to remember before getting rid of Ginobili for a draft pick is even if this draft pick is very talented and going to be a star in the future it takes them at least a year for them to learn the system with the Spurs. Do you really want them to wait a year or two for him to develop.

no I want bosh for manu:flag:

[DPG21920]

Ducks does not understand
Raptors will not trade Bosh for injured Manu
Spurs goal to win now
Young rookies hardly compete in playoffs

[ducks]

Ducks does not understand
Raptors will not trade Bosh for injured Manu
Spurs goal to win now
Young rookies hardly compete in playoffs
spurs should try
I would have said gasol to the lakers for brown was not going to happen either

[sananspursfan21]

Jorden Hill(the 5th pick), DeShawn Stevenson, Etan Thomas(expiring contract) fot Manu Ginobili.
maybe we should do it consider Manu injuring problems. we would get a very talented athletic big man who will be great next to Duncan and for our future, we would get a good SG who have small contract and can be a started and we would get a defensive big man with expiring contract that will keep our 2010 options open.

not sure about that since i don't really like how deshaun stevenson gets about 25 or so minutes a game and averages like 6 pts. a game.

i do love etan thomas though and he would really add some toughness to the spurs front court. maybe the spurs could make a small time trade to get him, say oberto and finley for thomas

[ducks]

How does this help the Spurs win now?

tp basically said the spurs plan was to wait not to do anything this offseason
but he wants them to do something now

[bigdog]

If we could get Hill or Harden with that pick, then I'd do it, but it looks like Phoenix has a better offer.

[DPG21920]

spurs should try
I would have said gasol to the lakers for brown was not going to happen either

Difference in teams and situation
Spurs do not have Jerry West with ties back to Spurs
Memphis not in same position as Raptors


tp basically said the spurs plan was to wait not to do anything this offseason
but he wants them to do something now

TP said add a few small pieces
Not change core
That means Manu
He knows 2010 plan in tact

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

no I want bosh for manu:flag:

Yeah and I want Lebron for Robin Lopez.

[DPG21920]

If the team was going to sacrifice this year and try and develop some role players and young guys, then use Manu's cap space to resign another big FA in 2010, I could see it maybe. I am not sure the Spurs would do this though and they certainly would not want to take on a bloated contract to accomplish this (which in turn would screw up the 2010 plan). To that degree it does not make sense.

[loveforthegame]

It doesn't make sense for the Spurs.

The Mavs, Rockets, Suns, Blazers, Nuggets could throw something together that would make better sense for them.

It would be in the best interest for other teams to get better while the Spurs do nothing until 2010.

[Pucho!!!]

We just need a couple upgrades in our role player, not a complete face lift. I think some here are overdoing the severity of the Spurs situation. D Wade went through some serious injuries that kept him out for a while before having this monster year. Sure, he's younger than Manu, but by some people's logic on here, he should be considered injury prone for the remainder of his career. I'm more than confident that if Manu strenghtens his body during the off-season (maybe he'll wise up and work with Tim Grover who worked with MJ, Kobe, D Wade, etc), he should have a monster year himself and I dont want to be the team on the tail-end of a Manu that feels he has something to prove, WWOOO WEEEE!! :toast

[Blackjack]

And So It Begins

A few weeks ago I tackled the subject of whether or not the Spurs should consider trading Manu Ginobili. In that post I said that there was no reason to suspect that they would, and that they shouldn’t. But I included this qualifier:

While I don’t think the Spurs have any interest in trading Manu Ginobili, I think they’ll receive more calls about his availability than ever before. This might seem counter-intuitive given his recent injuries, but if you’re an opposing GM you know:

-the Spurs need to reload, and their assets are limited

-if healthy, Manu Ginobili can lead a team to glory

-he is only due 11 million next season

-his contract is expiring, so the risk is minimal

-even if he doesn’t return to form, his bird rights and a scaled back contract offer give any team an insanely good 6th man going forward

So, in other words, Manu Ginobili is an attractive expiring contract and I expect plenty of rumors this offseason. Sam Amico of Pro Basketball News reports one rumor this way:

One thing that’s not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides. The Wizards may also try to make a run at unrestricted free agent forward Shawn Marion (Toronto) or guard Ben Gordon (Chicago).

Brace yourself, because we’ll hear more of the same before the summer is done.

Nota Bena: Washington’s motivation in shopping the 5th pick has everything to do with their cap situation. They don’t want to take on guaranteed salary, which, according to the rookie scale, is about 2.7 million if they keep their current selection. Their projected cap number for next season is in the mid 70s, which means that, depending on where the tax line comes down, they’ll have to shed salary in order to sign anyone this offseason. Honestly, they probably need to shed 6 million in cap and not take on a dime in order to avoid taxes. That’s a hard row to hoe. Why do you care? Because the Spurs would need to take back at least the money due Manu, but Washington would want to include more filler. Any player(s) the Spurs receive will compromise their 2010 cap integrity. So short of a base offer that includes Caron Butler and the 5th pick, I don’t see a Wizards trade offer that makes sense for San Antonio. And if you’re the Wizards, is the cap relief and tax savings worth that much? This is merely a rumor, and not a very good one at that.



http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/06/04/and-so-it-begins/

[DPG21920]

That is exactly what I just said and it is logical. Does not make sense for the Spurs because of the cap ramifications.

[rascal]

damn, Manu, Arenas, Butler, Jamison

bad ass motherfuckin team

They still need better bigs. That team won't win.

[tmtcsc]

Manu's body crapped out the last 2 years ? He had just come off a bad ankle injury when he signed with the Spurs. True, he's had injuries but nothing career threatening.

Manu Ginobili is a winner and a fierce competitor. I think people are getting a little too trigger happy to say goodbye to him. An unproven # 5 draft pick for an exciting 3 time NBA Champion, 6th man of the year, Olympic Gold Medalist ? No thanks. Besides, how does trading a # 5 pick bring cap relief when there is a rookie cap in place ?

Next. No wonder this talk was shot down.

[rascal]

Get Butler and the 5'th pick for Manu and expiring contracts. Thats a good deal for the spurs. The spurs would reload quickly with two quality players for Manu.

[ducks]

Manu's body crapped out the last 2 years ? He had just come off a bad ankle injury when he signed with the Spurs. True, he's had injuri

Manu Ginobili is a winner and a fierce competitor. I think people are getting a little too trigger happy to say goodbye to him. An unproven # 5 draft pick for an exciting 3 time NBA Champion, 6th man of the year, Olympic Gold Medalist ? No thanks. Besides, how does trading a # 5 pick bring cap relief when there is a rookie cap in place ?

Next. No wonder this talk was shot down.
manu won because of others
others are better and not have won

[rascal]

It doesn't make sense for the Spurs.

The Mavs, Rockets, Suns, Blazers, Nuggets could throw something together that would make better sense for them.

It would be in the best interest for other teams to get better while the Spurs do nothing until 2010.

Thats just great throwing away another one of Duncan's last years.

[tmtcsc]

manu won because of others
others are better and not have won

Lucky Manu. It seems where ever he plays, his teammates bring him Championships. I like how they make big shots and big plays for him too.

[ducks]

Lucky Manu. It seems where ever he plays, his teammates bring him Championships. I like how they make big shots and big plays for him too.

yeah duncan sure did

[DPG21920]

Get Butler and the 5'th pick for Manu and expiring contracts. Thats a good deal for the spurs. The spurs would reload quickly with two quality players for Manu.

I agree, but why would the Wiz do that? If you bring in Manu and get rid of Butler + the 5th how does that help them compete for a title? They would need to add Manu to Gilbert/Butler/Jamison in order to compete.

Unless they are thinking they can get Manu, resign him then upgrade up front next year, but then it seems quite complicated and risky.

That would be an excellent deal for the Spurs and fill a position of need. Butler is about as good as you could hope for in 2010 anyways, then you could use the #5 to replace Manu somewhat or upfront. You would then have the MLE to use as well.

Still makes very little sense for both teams unless something extreme happens, which never does with the Spurs.

[roycrikside]

tp basically said the spurs plan was to wait not to do anything this offseason
but he wants them to do something now

I'm pretty sure Tony doesn't want the team to trade Manu you dipshit. Unlike you, he doesn't hate Manu.

[ducks]

Lucky Manu. It seems where ever he plays, his teammates bring him Championships. I like how they make big shots and big plays for him too.

the great scola was why his country won
oh wait
they won when the USA did not send their best players
lucky manu
and when the usa team practiced together
they won it all not manu's team

[roycrikside]

the great scola was why his country won
oh wait
they won when the USA did not send their best players
lucky manu
and when the usa team practiced together
they won it all not manu's team

I've said it before and I'll say it again - You'd rather have the Spurs lose a championship than having them win with Manu hitting the winning shot.

[ducks]

I'm pretty sure Tony doesn't want the team to trade Manu you dipshit. Unlike you, he doesn't hate Manu.

tp wants to win
he is not going to say manu needs to go publically
that would be bad pr and drive manu's price down further
and if he does not get traded
then they might be chemistry problems

[ducks]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - You'd rather have the Spurs lose a championship than having them win with Manu hitting the winning shot.

no I would not
I wanted manu to win the finals mvp not duncan

I want spurs to win
but they are other players out there that are close to manu's talent
that play more minutes and less injury prone

[DPG21920]

tp wants to win
he is not going to say manu needs to go publically
that would be bad pr and drive manu's price down further
and if he does not get traded
then they might be chemistry problems

If he has not said anything publicly, what leads you to this assumption? Link to anything? Or are you just making stuff up again?

[ducks]

I was a spur fan when they got david robinson
not any other spur player
I will always be a spur fan
even if they trade tp,duncan,manu

[Mel_13]

no I would not
I wanted manu to win the finals mvp not duncan

I want spurs to win
but they are other players out there that are close to manu's talent
that play more minutes and less injury prone

Let's assume that this statement is true. Which of these players do you believe would be available to the Spurs in exchange for Manu?

[modtxspur]

While the thought of manu in a different uni makes me cringe, the oldest team in the league needs to get younger. The most important part of this team is still TD (low post plus defense=MIP). If we could get the 5th and then package picks from the second round plus a vet, maybe we could move up to the back of the first round. We have to reload, we can't end up like the bulls after jordan left.

[pad300]

Jorden Hill(the 5th pick), DeShawn Stevenson, Etan Thomas(expiring contract) fot Manu Ginobili.
maybe we should do it consider Manu injuring problems. we would get a very talented athletic big man who will be great next to Duncan and for our future, we would get a good SG who have small contract and can be a started and we would get a defensive big man with expiring contract that will keep our 2010 options open.

This is very poor; shall we try something that the Spurs might actually consider? I posted it at 48MoH


The minimum that might make it work (from the Spurs perspective - no guarantee WAS bites…)

#5, Caron, Haywood, Deshawn Stevenson

for

Ginobili, Oberto(buyout), Bowen (buyout), 2010 1st

SAS salary in (2010): $19,914,899 +the #5 , Salary Out (2010) : $18,528,130
SAS salary net (2010):+ $4,111,069 (inexact, +/- 20% on the rookie scale salary of $2,724,300)

WAS salary in (2010, post buyouts): $14,628,130, Salary out (2010): $19,914,899 +the #5
WAS Salary net: -$8,011,069 (inexact, +/- 20% on the rookie scale salary of $2,724,300)

This would leave the Spurs at $73,565,796
in committed salary in 2010 (above tax line by approximately $2,000,000) and 13 players signed. Pray Finley retires and you can sign a 2nd rounder (Gist?) or vet min. Move Bonner and other expirings in 2010 for cheaper contracts that end in 2011 and put off the big rebuild till 2011, when both Tony and Butler’s contracts come up and things look potentially doable..

Alternatively, there are cheaper contracts (Pecherov, Blatche, Crittendon, McGuire) than Stevenson, but most of them are rookies that I suspect WAS values more.

Also if Finley lets SAS know early enough, trading him to WAS to retire, while we take more of their salary might work (add Finley for SAS, add Crittendon or Pecherov for WAS)…


PS I can't see SAS taking Mike James or Etan Thomas. They'd be 10th to 12th men here (James as 3ed pg - Parker, Hill, James, Thomas as 5th big - Duncan, KT/Bonner, Mahinmi....) . Deshawn might actually play. He has some defensive chops. Haywood we would be willing to take; he'd actually play for us, as either 2nd or 3ed big.

[Bruno]

If Spurs take the 2010 plan road, trading Ginobili for the 5th pick makes sense.

[completely deck]

I was a spur fan when they got david robinson
not any other spur player
I will always be a spur fan
even if they trade tp,duncan,manu

your posts read like a terrible poem.

[ducks]

thank you

[Bukefal]

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0710/campus.cheer.oregon/images/IMG_9683.jpg

:toast

[hater]

thank you

ducks, you ass, wouldn't you be happy if manu left?

you should be propping this thread instead of shitting on it

[DPG21920]

If Spurs take the 2010 plan road, trading Ginobili for the 5th pick makes sense.

But what contracts could they take back that would 1) save the Wiz money and 2) expire in 2010 that would allow for them to have the 5th pick and maximize cap space to sign a FA?

[pad300]

If Spurs take the 2010 plan road, trading Ginobili for the 5th pick makes sense.

Please explain? Gino expires in 2010, so it doesn't open more cap space; in fact the 5th pick would take a small (~2.7 million I think) chunk away. The other question, of course is what would come back to balance Manu's outgoing salary; remember WAS is over the cap. The proposals so far (Mine, Kobyz and Rascal's) have all got SAS taking back salary into 2011 (Bultler and Stevenson both have contracts that extend to 2010/11).

[Bukefal]

If Spurs take the 2010 plan road, trading Ginobili for the 5th pick makes sense.

Exactly. This would not be a bad move at all. especially when you want to focus on young players.

[Bruno]

But what contracts could they take back that would 1) save the Wiz money and 2) expire in 2010 that would allow for them to have the 5th pick and maximize cap space to sign a FA?

Ginobili + Oberto for Mike James + Etan Thomas + Pecherov + 5th.

Wizards will save $6M in 09-10, that is to say $12M with the luxury tax.

[Galileo]

D-Wade was a 5th pick. So was Devin Harris, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Juwon Howard.

[pad300]

Ginobili + Oberto for Mike James + Etan Thomas + Pecherov + 5th.

Wizards will save $6M in 09-10, that is to say $12M with the luxury tax.

UGLY. As I stated above, I don't think we take either James or Thomas, never mind both. They are very poor players. This essentially tanks the 09/10 season for SAS. At least try and grab Haywood instead of Thomas.

[pad300]

D-Wade was a 5th pick. So was Devin Harris, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Juwon Howard.

Yeah, but you are cherry picking drafts over maybe 15 years. This is not likely to be a strong draft; particularly there are prospects, but maybe 3 sure things (Griffin, Rubio, and maybe Harden). The rest of prospects have significant chances of busting relative to their expected draft position IMO...

[Bruno]

UGLY. As I stated above, I don't think we take either James or Thomas, never mind both. They are very poor players. This essentially tanks the 09/10 season for SAS. At least try and grab Haywood instead of Thomas.

You can called that UGLY (in capital letters, please) but I doubt Spurs can get more for Ginobili.

[Bruno]

Please explain? Gino expires in 2010, so it doesn't open more cap space; in fact the 5th pick would take a small (~2.7 million I think) chunk away.

If you can convince the player to only take 80% of the rookie scale in his second year, the 5th pick will eat $1.87M of capspace.
You will sure have less cap space but you will also have one more talented player. All in all, it's a great deal.

[DPG21920]

Ginobili + Oberto for Mike James + Etan Thomas + Pecherov + 5th.

Wizards will save $6M in 09-10, that is to say $12M with the luxury tax.

Would this not put the Spurs into the luxury tax for next year? Also, wouldn't Etan has an ETO, so what would he have to do an by what date in order to make a trade work?

[DPG21920]

If you can convince the player to only take 80% of the rookie scale in his second year, the 5th pick will eat $1.87M of capspace.
You will sure have less cap space but you will also have one more talented player. All in all, it's a great deal.

Would you rather this route or try and package Caron Butler + the 5th for Manu? Spurs would probably have to do a Bowen+Oberto for other expirings to save the Wiz money this year, but do you think that the Spurs could get better than Caron in 2010?

[Bruno]

Would this not put the Spurs into the luxury tax for next year? Also, wouldn't Etan has an ETO, so what would he have to do an by what date in order to make a trade work?

Spurs should be really close to the luxury tax, especially if Finley stays.
Thomas should pick his option before the draft if Spurs do this trade during the draft.

[Bruno]

Would you rather this route or try and package Caron Butler + the 5th for Manu? Spurs would probably have to do a Bowen+Oberto for other expirings to save the Wiz money this year, but do you think that the Spurs could get better than Caron in 2010?

There is no way Wizards do Butler + 5th for Ginobili + expirings.

[pad300]

You can called that UGLY (in capital letters, please) but I doubt Spurs can get more for Ginobili.

IMO, I wouldn't make the trade you propose. It's tanking any hope of a 09/10 championship, as we get no talent back for Ginobili; there's 1 pick in this draft (Griffin) who you can expect to contribute immediately. Your deal gets us a high pick in a bad draft, for which we sacrifice Gino's bird rights and first shot a negotiating with him. My personal hope for the 09/10 offseason starts with Ginobili accepting something like $30-35 million over 5 years before open negotiation start. This leaves SAS with room to pick up another ~ 10 million/year player. If we get the right player, we set up 2 more championship shots in Duncan's last 2 years on current contract.

I'm willing to trade down from a player of Ginobili's calibre, but not so far down as to lose another championship shot. Trade Ginobili to spread the talent between 2 players (Butler and Haywood in my suggestion) maybe, but for potential only. Not IMO...

[Bruno]

IMO, I wouldn't make the trade you propose. It's tanking any hope of a 09/10 championship, as we get no talent back for Ginobili; there's 1 pick in this draft (Griffin) who you can expect to contribute immediately.

If Spurs stick with the 2010 plan, there is basically no hope of winning the 09-10 championship.



My personal hope for the 09/10 offseason starts with Ginobili accepting something like $30-35 million over 5 years before open negotiation start. This leaves SAS with room to pick up another ~ 10 million/year player.

It doesn't work because of the "over 36" rule. It's 4 years max for Ginobili's new contract.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q49

[tmtcsc]

the great scola was why his country won
oh wait
they won when the USA did not send their best players
lucky manu
and when the usa team practiced together
they won it all not manu's team

Yeah, Manu not playing more than 5 minutes in that game had nothing to do with them losing. No big loss, right ducks ?

Why do you hate on Manu so much ? Why can't you admit that the guy is a bad ass on the floor ? Is Coach Pop's opinion BS to you ? Is Kobe's opinion BS ?

Pop himself said that the Spurs would have 2 less championships if it wasn't for Manu. Tim can't do it all by himself and Manu has been a HUGE part of the Spurs success. He's not some 2 bit player who does well just because of Tim or Tony. That's ridiculous. If he was on any other team he would be putting up crazy stats.

The best thing about Manu is that he puts winning above everything else.

[pad300]

If Spurs stick with the 2010 plan, there is basically no hope of winning the 09-10 championship.


You think 09/10 is already without a shot. A core of Tim, Manu & Tony, assuming they are all healthy, simply isn't good enough now? Put the right role players in place, and I think we have a shot.



It doesn't work because of the "over 36" rule. It's 4 years max for Ginobili's new contract.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q49

That adjusts the number to $24-28 Million, not the concept, which is to sign him for slightly more than the MLE, to act as an improved Brent Barry...

[Bruno]

You think 09/10 is already without a shot. A core of Tim, Manu & Tony, assuming they are all healthy, simply isn't good enough now? Put the right role players in place, and I think we have a shot.

I don't think Spurs can get the right role players via trade/FA without taking salaries after 2010.



That adjusts the number to $24-28 Million, not the concept, which is to sign him for slightly more than the MLE, to act as an improved Brent Barry...

Well, chances are lower that Ginobili will sign for the near MLE if you can offer him only a 4 years contract instead of a 5 years contract.

[rayray2k8]

Soooo.. It's not gonna go down then, right?
Thread closed. :)

[DPG21920]

There is no way Wizards do Butler + 5th for Ginobili + expirings.

I agree, I said the same earlier, but I meant do you think the Spurs push for this knowing full well they would except the 5th and just expirings for Gino in hopes Washington is willing to move Caron or would you rather the cap space?

[Bruno]

I agree, I said the same earlier, but I meant do you think the Spurs push for this knowing full well they would except the 5th and just expirings for Gino in hopes Washington is willing to move Caron or would you rather the cap space?

I easily take Butler over the capspace.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu for #5 pick? Wizards is crazy.

[jag]

The "2010" plan seems kind of like wishful thinking. What "big-time" free agrent is going to be interested in coming to SA?

[DPG21920]

Manu for #5 pick? Wizards is crazy.

It is a great deal for the Wizards and a terrible idea for the Spurs, at least next year. It could wind up being a good deal if they land a FA in 2010 with their cap space, but it is risky.

[pad300]

I don't think Spurs can get the right role players via trade/FA without taking salaries after 2010.


A pessimistic assesment IMO. A playoff rotation is 8 or 9 players; 2 PG's 3 Wings, 3 Bigs, and maybe 1 more good player. We Already have at least 6 of those...
PG's - Tony, Hill
Wings - Manu, Mason, Bowen (maybe; he looked fine IMO against Dallas)
Big - TD, KT (maybe, he might drop off this year)

We need at least 1 Big (maybe 2) and likely a wing. We have Mahinmi as a prospect, and several more prospects for that wing position (Hairston, Gist [either as a SF or a PF], Williams). Assuming 1 of 4 comes through, you think we can't find a single worthy body from trades, FA or the draft? I'd say that's pretty pessimistic...



Well, chances are lower that Ginobili will sign for the near MLE if you can offer him only a 4 years contract instead of a 5 years contract.
True, but the hope remains. Also, how does the interaction between the Bird/Early Bird and Non-Bird Exceptions work?

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q19


NON-BIRD EXCEPTION -- This is also a component of the Veteran Free Agent exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. They are veteran free agents who are neither Qualifying Veteran Free Agents nor Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents, either because they haven't met the criteria, or because they are Early Bird free agents following the second season of their rookie scale contract and whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception. This exception allows a team to re-sign its own free agent to a salary starting at 120% of the player's salary in the previous season, 120% of the minimum salary, or the amount needed to tender a qualifying offer (if the player is a restricted free agent -- see question number 36), whichever is greater. Raises are limited to 8% of the salary in the first year of the contract, and contracts are limited to five seasons when this exception is used.

Bolding is mine

This suggests that you can renounce early bird rights and retain the non-bird exception for an FA, allowing you to resign them outside the cap.
This creates powerful scenarios, of renouncing a players early bird rights for cap room, signing an FA into that cap room, and then using the Non-Bird Exception, which would be retained to resign the original FA. I don't think it's supposed to work that way, but that's how I read that section. Also, it says nothing about renouncing actual Bird Rights... in this limited case are Bird Rights worse than Early Bird rights?

Assuming that my take on the interaction is in fact correct, and you can do the same thing with Bird Rights, we could potentially come to a deal with Manu before the FA period starts in 2010, renounce his Bird rights, sign FA's and then use the Non-Bird Exception to sign Manu, as he would clearly be getting less than 120% of his current salary...

[DPG21920]

Pad, I think he means the Spurs would not be able to land a player via trade or FA without their contracts going beyond 2010. There will be talent available and people will be able to obtain it cheaply (meaning you won't have to give up talent to get it), but it will be with guys whos contracts extend beyond 2010.

It will be with teams looking to salary dump. The question then becomes: is this player good enough to scrap the 2010 plan for and how much wiggle room will there be to change directions if the player fails?

[Bruno]

This suggests that you can renounce early bird rights and retain the non-bird exception for an FA, allowing you to resign them outside the cap.

You misread the CBA FAQ.

"whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception" only apply for first round pick whose team hasn't picked the third year team option.

[ducks]

The best thing about Manu is that he puts winning above everything else.

he not care if he start or not
but he does what he wants when injured and spurs do not
he did not put winning above him this last season:bang:bang

[Johnny RIngo]

The "2010" plan seems kind of like wishful thinking. What "big-time" free agrent is going to be interested in coming to SA?

My sentiments exactly. Spurs need to do whatever it takes to win now.

[Mal]

No f-way.... Manu for 5th and filler ?? Please don`t do this shit.

Manu gives Wizz even contender. Young guy isnt necesary in Wash. They have young guys, and proven stars. Selling 5th is best option for them.

[Brazil]

You misread the CBA FAQ.

"whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception" only apply for first round pick whose team hasn't picked the third year team option.

Bruno is just a machine

[024]

if it's ginobili for butler + the fifth pick... although butler is injury prone. would be effective in defending bryant and lebron.

[ducks]

if it's ginobili for butler + the fifth pick... although butler is injury prone. would be effective in defending bryant and lebron.
kobe going down toliet soon
james will be on si cover and get hurt next year

[DPG21920]

There is no way they give up Butler for Manu, that would defeat the purpose of getting him.

[SpursFan0728]

Trading manu away for a fifth pick does not make any sense especially we are heading towards the end of Duncan's era.

[DPG21920]

Trading manu away for a fifth pick does not make any sense especially we are heading towards the end of Duncan's era.

It makes sense if they are dead set on adhering to the 2010 plan and Manu is not in their future. It would suck for next year and it would be a risk because you do not know if you can lure a FA to play in SA, but the line of thinking is you get a top 5 pick and young player, bring in some other cheap, young pieces, let them develop for one year.

That way you have given some young, athletic players a chance to grow and become useful role players then you get a big FA and make your push for the next 2-3 years.

[GSH]

Couldn't OKC package the #3 pick and Earl Watson in a trade for Manu? I know that they would have to actually draft (and sign) the #3 for the Spurs, but at that point he would be worth the rookie scale. Unless I'm missing something, the numbers work.

I think OKC is going to try to move Watson anyway, and Presti knows what Manu brings to a team. He could bring a lot to that young Thunder roster.

The Spurs would get a reasonably competent third PG and Thabeet or Jordan Hill. Would either be worth the trade?

[DPG21920]

I do not think Presti is taking on any injury risks and it is clear with the Chandler trade, they are looking for a big man. I think he would rather draft Thabeet and get that guy who could be better than Chandler, younger and cheaper than bring in Manu for what could be a one year rental.

[rascal]

There is no way they give up Butler for Manu, that would defeat the purpose of getting him.


Maybe washington is desperate to open cap space to be a major player in 2010. Let them go after the pipe dream instead of the spurs.

They can get expiring contracts + Manu packaged from the spurs. Then they can target a quality big. They wont be winning anything without getting a star big and they might think this is the only way they can get a star big.

Butler > Manu on future potential alone.

[DPG21920]

You are saying they would want to get Manu for one year, keep their expirings, essentially doubling their cap space for 2010? Maybe.

I would be happy with that. You could use the 5th pick to replace Manu, now you have your SF with Butler then you can use the MLE for the next two years.

Of course there is always the Sean Elliott case where a player is traded, then comes back. I would love that for Manu, but he would have to except the MLE which might be a tough sale if he is healthy.

Wiz would have a pretty big hole at SF they would need to fill as well. I don't see this happening, but I would not mind if it did. Caron is better than anything the Spurs could hope for in 2010 and he is well priced.

[rascal]

Please explain? Gino expires in 2010, so it doesn't open more cap space; in fact the 5th pick would take a small (~2.7 million I think) chunk away. The other question, of course is what would come back to balance Manu's outgoing salary; remember WAS is over the cap. The proposals so far (Mine, Kobyz and Rascal's) have all got SAS taking back salary into 2011 (Bultler and Stevenson both have contracts that extend to 2010/11).

The spurs would have to scrap the 2010 plan and go for the win now philosphy. Let washington go for the 2010 plan. If they can add Butler and the 5'th pick that would be a great deal for the spurs to win now.

[DPG21920]

Most everyone is in agreement if the offer was Butler + 5th for Manu the Spurs would do it. Just seems highly unlikely for many reasons.

[rascal]

Washington is willing to trade the 5'th pick for Manu as it is. If they are big on the 2010 plan then will they part with Butler to have a chance at opening cap space to target a star big in 2010? Could be a tough sell to get them to include Butler but like I said they won't win anything with the bigs they have now.

[Mel_13]

Most everyone is in agreement if the offer was Butler + 5th for Manu the Spurs would do it. Just seems highly unlikely for many reasons.

It's amazing that you have to keep explaining this, but I applaud your patience.

If the Wizards traded Butler and the 5th pick for Manu then the Washington GM should get fired for monumental stupidity. Butler is an all-star on a reasonable contract. If the Wizards want to get relief for all or most of his salary they won't have to pay for the privilege by giving away the 5th pick. There will be much better deals than Manu's expiring contract available, deals which will remove all or part of his salary without giving up the 5th pick.

[DPG21920]

Why Butler and not Jamison? From that standpoint, Jamison is older and makes more money and has a longer contract.

If they were in that mode, they could shop Jamison and the pick and probably get more than Manu or do what you suggest the Spurs do and pick someone up now via trade and avoid the hassle of 2010.

I have heard about Amare for Jamison.

[crc21209]

Manu for the 5th pick in this draft? HELL NO. Give Manu ONE more yr to prove himself. I think TD, TP, Manu, and Bruce have at LEAST one more left in them...

[baseline bum]

The spurs would have to scrap the 2010 plan and go for the win now philosphy. Let washington go for the 2010 plan. If they can add Butler and the 5'th pick that would be a great deal for the spurs to win now.

That ain't happening, although the pipe dream of Butler + #5 + some bad salaries for Manu + expiring contracts would likely be a great move for the team.

[Mel_13]

Washington is willing to trade the 5'th pick for Manu as it is. If they are big on the 2010 plan then will they part with Butler to have a chance at opening cap space to target a star big in 2010? Could be a tough sell to get them to include Butler but like I said they won't win anything with the bigs they have now.

Really?

This the quote from the original blog:

One thing that's not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides.

This is just some guy with a basketball blog repeating unsubstantiated and unsourced rumors. Rumors which even he admits have no basis in truth.

[rascal]

That ain't happening, although the pipe dream of Butler + #5 + some bad salaries for Manu + expiring contracts would likely be a great move for the team.

Of course it is not happening. The spurs don't make major trades to get stars.
I am just throwing stuff out there that won't ever happen.

[TMTTRIO]

Of course there is always the Sean Elliott case where a player is traded, then comes back. I would love that for Manu, but he would have to except the MLE which might be a tough sale if he is healthy.

I can't see Manu coming back if he's traded. He's already accomplished all he can with the Spurs. Why would he come back if he was traded?

[rascal]

Manu for the 5th pick in this draft? HELL NO. Give Manu ONE more yr to prove himself. I think TD, TP, Manu, and Bruce have at LEAST one more left in them...


They will not win if these are the top 4 players on the team anymore. Their window has closed. Its time to move on.

[modtxspur]

along with the fifth pick and trading up to the end of the end of the first round, watching this finals game Gortat would be a nice pick up

[smrattler]

Even if it were true that they wanted to do that trade, doesn't sound like there is much at the top of the draft to make this a sure thing for the Spurs. So, both teams would be taking risks.

I think the Spurs would be getting the bigger unknown, just my opinion.

[DPG21920]

I can't see Manu coming back if he's traded. He's already accomplished all he can with the Spurs. Why would he come back if he was traded?

I could. It would be a tough sale to Manu because his feelings might be hurt if he was traded. He might get over it and want to finish his career with the Spurs and go out with Tim.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Tell the Wizards we'll give em Vaughn, Udoka, Fin & Fab for the #5. Manu finishes his career as a Spur.

[loveforthegame]

Thats just great throwing away another one of Duncan's last years.

I was being saracastic. In an earlier post I said it depends on what the Wizards are asking us to take back but you'd have to think long and hard at this trade.

We could get someone like Hardin, Hill, Clark with that #5 pick.

I was just stating that the Spurs will probably stand pat and pick up one or two new players while another rival puts the package together that will make them better.

[jdaveah]

James Harden would be a great Manu replacement, and this is coming from a UA student who's had to watch Harden kill his team for two years. Harden fits the Spurs' ideal profile, extremely high bball IQ, cares first and foremost about his team, plays great defense, and he's not overly cocky.


Well coming from a UA alum, I don't know what games you've been watching. He gets his buckets in the paint in a similar way that Tony does except his teardrop has no arc. When he played NBA level talent such as the Lopez twins at Stanford and the last 2 years of tournament games, he was shut down. Would never want him for Manu.

[loveforthegame]

It's not about dissing or shipping Ginobli off without care but it has to be looked at.

Two years in a row we've sat around here saying if he was healthy this would have been a different series. Not many years left to see if he can stay healthy for the playoffs.

Sure, a top 5 pick isn't going to come in and replace what he gives. Neither is any free agent we bring in this summer. But we have to start somewhere.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I would do it. Pick the lankiest, most athletic, and hardworking small forward in the draft, one that will give 170% to learn everything he can from bruce bowen.

[vander]

5th for manu would be a big win for the Spurs

this must be done

[JustinJDW]

At first, I liked the idea, but not anymore. We are giving up too easily. The last time our Big 3 was 100% healthy in the Playoffs, we won the Championship. Let's give it one more shot. A redefined Tony Parker, healthy Ginobili and still effective Tim Duncan is enough.

Let's give it one more shot, before our Dynasty goes off into the sunset. :king

[vander]

At first, I liked the idea, but not anymore. We are giving up too easily. The last time our Big 3 was 100% healthy in the Playoffs, we won the Championship. Let's give it one more shot. A redefined Tony Parker, healthy Ginobili and still effective Tim Duncan is enough.

Let's give it one more shot, before our Dynasty goes off into the sunset. :king

there is no sunset, look at the Lakers, you reload on the fly

[JustinJDW]

there is no sunset, look at the Lakers, you reload on the flyThe Lakers got lucky that there was an idiot GM out there that would trade their All-Star Big Man to them for a bag of chips. The trade got a lot of criticism and controversy.

That idiot was also Jerry West. Coincidence?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

It's amazing that you have to keep explaining this, but I applaud your patience.

If the Wizards traded Butler and the 5th pick for Manu then the Washington GM should get fired for monumental stupidity. Butler is an all-star on a reasonable contract. If the Wizards want to get relief for all or most of his salary they won't have to pay for the privilege by giving away the 5th pick. There will be much better deals than Manu's expiring contract available, deals which will remove all or part of his salary without giving up the 5th pick.

This.

The only way the Spurs do it would be if Wizards include Butler, which they most certainly will not. Manu stays.

I wonder why some people like Ducks and Vander,who are notorious for their hatred towards Manu, think that he's finished, yet they expect other teams to know less than posters on a message board and give the Spurs all stars in exchange for a supposedly finished player? Make up your mind, otherwise it's just blind hatred, which it is.

[tim_duncan_fan]

This.

The only way the Spurs do it would be if Wizards include Butler, which they most certainly will not. Manu stays.

I wonder why some people like Ducks and Vander,who are notorious for their hatred towards Manu, think that he's finished, yet they expect other teams to know less than posters on a message board and give the Spurs all stars in exchange for a supposedly finished player? Make up your mind, otherwise it's just blind hatred, which it is.

I think they are just throwing out stuff that they wish would happen.

No one is going to give us anything good for Manu, because the truth is that he is injured and washed up.

In the coming season, we will have pretty much the same team (this means MORE FINLEY. YAYYY!) with no major additions and maybe (probably) the loss of Drew Gooden. We will bet the season on the idea that Manu can get back to all-star form and Pop will play Hill more in the hopes that he will become an outstanding bench player.

This is the plan for next year. It's not a very good plan, but it is the plan.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I think they are just throwing out stuff that they wish would happen.

No one is going to give us anything good for Manu, because the truth is that he is injured and washed up.

In the coming season, we will have pretty much the same team (this means MORE FINLEY. YAYYY!) with no major additions and maybe (probably) the loss of Drew Gooden. We will bet the season on the idea that Manu can get back to all-star form and Pop will play Hill more in the hopes that he will become an outstanding bench player.

This is the plan for next year. It's not a very good plan, but it is the plan.

I agree that this most likely is the plan, but I expect Manu to be on 07/08 level and to not be injured, at least not for more than 5-10 games.

In other words, while I realize we will not be favorites to win the championship, I believe we will be a contender and think it'd be the best way to follow this route in order to have maximum financial flexibility, unless there is a deal for some player we cannot turn down.

[TDMVPDPOY]

a cardboard box of tim duncan is more effective than finley when defending the post

[tim_duncan_fan]

a cardboard box of michael finley is more effective than finley when defending the post

fixed.

[spurspokesman]

Yeah. Keep manu. Washington is the only beneficiary in this scenario. This draft is weak. A 30% manu is better thean anything coming out this year. Plus the spurs dont have patience for development.

[Homeland Security]

Whatever. The Spurs might as well get a headstart on rebuilding. You aren't going to win any more championships with that team. All of you people are in denial: "Just give 93-year-old Bruce Bowen one more chance!!! I'm sure he's got it in him!!!" lol

Can't the Spurs do Duncan a favor and trade him to an up-and-coming contender like Portland so he can spend his last few years fighting for more titles, rather than languishing on a 7-seed whose fans are forced to live in the past? After singlehandedly saving your franchise, don't you owe him that?

Anyway, the Wiz will get something for that pick.

[024]

i don't believe the spurs need a complete overhaul of the team to win another championship. they definitely need to get rid of their "veterans" because the big 3 is getting old and the spurs need to strike a balance of youth and veterans. other than the obvious deal of butler + 5th pick for ginobili, trading away ginobili to rebuild would be too rash of a decision for now.

ginobili straight up for a 5th pick + filler seems to make sense if the spurs do not see a point in pursuing a championship next season. the spurs would begin a short rebuilding mode of a year or two. this move would greatly increase the chances of winning in 2011 if they can sign a big player in 2010. would they rather sign an all star in 2010 and lose manu or lose manu now, sign an all star in 2010, AND have the 5th pick in 2009? but they have to be really confident that they can sign an all star in 2010 and that they will no longer need ginobili.

[Extra Stout]

i don't believe the spurs need a complete overhaul of the team to win another championship. they definitely need to get rid of their "veterans" because the big 3 is getting old and the spurs need to strike a balance of youth and veterans.
You just contradicted yourself. If the Spurs get rid of their "veterans," that involves reworking most of the roster, i.e. a complete overhaul of the team around the big 3.

[Mel_13]

there is no sunset, look at the Lakers, you reload on the fly

Except for the fact that the Lakers did not reload on the fly.

34-48 Lottery
45-37 1st round exit
42-40 1st round exit

[024]

You just contradicted yourself. If the Spurs get rid of their "veterans," that involves reworking most of the roster, i.e. a complete overhaul of the team around the big 3.
nope, i consider a complete overhaul a changing of the spurs' core, which is the big 3. as long as the spurs keep the big 3, they will not be changing the main component of this team.

[Yogurt210]

I would do it, James Harden for Manu.
Great fit for the spurs.

[JustinJDW]

Whatever. The Spurs might as well get a headstart on rebuilding. You aren't going to win any more championships with that team. All of you people are in denial: "Just give 93-year-old Bruce Bowen one more chance!!! I'm sure he's got it in him!!!" lol

Can't the Spurs do Duncan a favor and trade him to an up-and-coming contender like Portland so he can spend his last few years fighting for more titles, rather than languishing on a 7-seed whose fans are forced to live in the past? After singlehandedly saving your franchise, don't you owe him that?

Anyway, the Wiz will get something for that pick.Haha, what an idiot. This Season, we only had Ginobili for about 40 Games, and Timmy had some injury problems too, and we still managed to get the #3 Seed in the toughest Conference in the League, in the toughest Division in the League.

I can't wait to see what we can do with a heatlhy Ginobili, redefined Tony Parker and still effective Tim Duncan. So please, stop being such a hater and move on.

[Lars]

Spurs would be smart to trade Ginobli before he has zero value.

[wildbill2u]

One thing that's not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides.

http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=523

i wasn't sure if i should post it here or in the think tank thingy so.. feel free to move it or w/e. :)

I think the only sure picks end about 4th pick. That's why they are open to trade. I don't think you trade Manu for a possibly good, but not outstanding, pick.

And the FO ain't about to spend 4th pick money this year and get rid of Manu.

[loveforthegame]

Spurs would be smart to trade Ginobli before he has zero value.

No, we'll just sign him to a huge extension next summer and pray he stays healthy. That's what the last two years have been about in the post season. If Ginobli were healthy then we might have another championship or two right now.

We like to bag on Finley, Vaughn, Bonner, Oberto, Udoka, Pop and so on as the reasons we failed this year and last. It has nothing to do with Ginobli's absence.

[Lars]

No, we'll just sign him to a huge extension next summer and pray he stays healthy. That's what the last two years have been about in the post season. If Ginobli were healthy then we might have another championship or two right now.

We like to bag on Finley, Vaughn, Bonner, Oberto, Udoka, Pop and so on as the reasons we failed this year and last. It has nothing to do with Ginobli's absence.

I know its not the popular opinion, but from the outside looking in, Spurs could drastically cut back on rebuilding time if they moved Duncan and Manu now.

[StoneBuddha]

I know its not the popular opinion, but from the outside looking in, Spurs could drastically cut back on rebuilding time if they moved Duncan and Manu now.

Rebuilding to extend the time they are a 2nd level contender has no appeal to me.

I rather the Spurs go out in a blaze of glory and maximize the chances of a chanpionship in the next two-three years, even if it means falling off the cliff after that point.

To me that means keeping the big 3 intact for one more year and remaking the role players with more youth and athleticism. In the past when the big three were younger and friskier, it was ok to complement them with older, more ceberal role players. Now that the big 3 have entered a different phase of their career, they need to be complemented with more athletes who can drive/create.

One more please... :lobt:

[StoneBuddha]

Also, not to mention the Spurs record this season with all of the big 3 healthy was very good. It's worth the roll of the dice for one more season. I'm actually more worried about Duncan than Manu.

[Lars]

Also, not to mention the Spurs record this season with all of the big 3 healthy was very good. It's worth the roll of the dice for one more season. I'm actually more worried about Duncan than Manu.

Thats the thing with age though. Eventually that wear kicks in, and you say things like oh fluke injury, we'll be back next season. So then next season rolls around and bam its something else or a different guy and theres another season down the drain. Finally after consequetive seasons of failure to put a healthy product on court, your golden boys have no value left and then what do you have? No real youth, no tradable assets, and Clipper status for 6-8 years.

Best case scenario, all three all healthy, you put up one or two years of top caliber teams, but you still have to get passed the Lakers, who right now are looking pretty strong for the next few years.

Before the begining of this season there was an offer on the table for McGrady...basically the same one the Nuggets got for Iverson. Looking back, that trade would of been fantastic, but noooo, people were certain Tracy would bounce back. Now Tmac has faded even further and who knows what we could get for him.

As it stands, you can apparently get the fifth pick for Manu. You could probably do even better with Duncan, maybe a package of 2 above average guys. Assuming you traded those 2 and got some decent young guys, you could move forward and be back in it in far less time than if you went out in a "blaze of glory".

Just my opinion. TIFWIW

[Yogurt210]

Thats the thing with age though. Eventually that wear kicks in, and you say things like oh fluke injury, we'll be back next season. So then next season rolls around and bam its something else or a different guy and theres another season down the drain. Finally after consequetive seasons of failure to put a healthy product on court, your golden boys have no value left and then what do you have? No real youth, no tradable assets, and Clipper status for 6-8 years.

Best case scenario, all three all healthy, you put up one or two years of top caliber teams, but you still have to get passed the Lakers, who right now are looking pretty strong for the next few years.

Before the begining of this season there was an offer on the table for McGrady...basically the same one the Nuggets got for Iverson. Looking back, that trade would of been fantastic, but noooo, people were certain Tracy would bounce back. Now Tmac has faded even further and who knows what we could get for him.

As it stands, you can apparently get the fifth pick for Manu. You could probably do even better with Duncan, maybe a package of 2 above average guys. Assuming you traded those 2 and got some decent young guys, you could move forward and be back in it in far less time than if you went out in a "blaze of glory".

Just my opinion. TIFWIW


you hit the nail right on the head.
It seems people here don't understand.
It seems they wanna go out with a blazing glory and then deal with clipper status for the next decade.
The time is NOW for the spurs to make some moves.
we are not the same team, so we must do what's better for the TEAM and not for individuals.

[Extra Stout]

you hit the nail right on the head.
It seems people here don't understand.
It seems they wanna go out with a blazing glory and then deal with clipper status for the next decade.
The time is NOW for the spurs to make some moves.
we are not the same team, so we must do what's better for the TEAM and not for individuals.
The time was probably two years ago for the Spurs to make some moves.

Best hope for now:

Summer 2009
1) Pray a lot for Mahinmi to develop into an NBA player
2) Sign that Yiannis Bourousis character

2009-10 season
1) Try to package some combination of expiring contracts for a quality small forward before the trade deadline

Summer 2010
1) Draft a young wing
2) Pray that they haven't alienated Tiago Splitter

Then the Spurs could make a run in 2010-11 with a roster of Parker/Hill, Ginobili/Mason, quality small forward/young wing, Duncan/Mahinmi, Splitter/Bourousis.

[Lars]

The time was probably two years ago for the Spurs to make some moves.

Best hope for now:

Summer 2009
1) Pray a lot for Mahinmi to develop into an NBA player
2) Sign that Yiannis Bourousis character

2009-10 season
1) Try to package some combination of expiring contracts for a quality small forward before the trade deadline

Summer 2010
1) Draft a young wing
2) Pray that they haven't alienated Tiago Splitter

Then the Spurs could make a run in 2010-11 with a roster of Parker/Hill, Ginobili/Mason, quality small forward/young wing, Duncan/Mahinmi, Splitter/Bourousis.

dude, Manu and Duncan will be shells by then.

[angelbelow]

dude, Manu and Duncan will be shells by then.

dont be so sure. they both have great work ethic, unlike other players.

[GSH]

I know its not the popular opinion, but from the outside looking in, Spurs could drastically cut back on rebuilding time if they moved Duncan and Manu now.


Duncan? That would be right up there with getting rid of the Alamo. It would be like Houston getting rid of... well, you know. Something associated with Houston. Okay, like suggesting that they tear down the Astrodome to build a parking lot. All right, so they're actually considering that one. But you know what I mean.

Wait... I know. It would be like trading Hakeem Olajuwon to Toronto, so that he could finish his career in exile, and the Rockets could draft Bostjan Nachbar. Is that what you mean by re-building?

[Lars]

Duncan? That would be right up there with getting rid of the Alamo. It would be like Houston getting rid of... well, you know. Something associated with Houston. Okay, like suggesting that they tear down the Astrodome to build a parking lot. All right, so they're actually considering that one. But you know what I mean.

Wait... I know. It would be like trading Hakeem Olajuwon to Toronto, so that he could finish his career in exile, and the Rockets could draft Bostjan Nachbar. Is that what you mean by re-building?

Trading Hakeem was the right move. He was done as a player. He still comes back to our games, he is still a "Rocket"

[StoneBuddha]

Good point about Hakeem... Duncan isn't done, that's the whole point. He was 2nd team All-NBA and could have easily been 1st team this year.

IMO, trading him for two above average players is not the solution.

[Extra Stout]

dude, Manu and Duncan will be shells by then.
What kind of numbers did Hakeem put up when he was 34?

[GSH]

What kind of numbers did Hakeem put up when he was 34?

16.5 PPG, 9.8 RB, 2.0 BPG. The next season 18.9 PPG, 9.6 RB, 2.5 BPG. David Robinson won 2 Championships after his numbers had "dwindled" to those levels. Without the heart problems (and if Scottie Pippen hadn't taken a vacation on the Rockets payroll) Hakeem might have won at least one more, too.

[StoneBuddha]

The Rockets traded Hakeem before his 18th season in the league. By then, he had played in 47, 50, 44, and 58 games the previous four seasons. For the Rockets, it was the right move basketball wise, but I still wouldn't do it as a franchise if it were up to me.

However, when he was 34, he put up 23.2pts on 51%, 9.2 Reb, 1.50 Stl, 2.22Blks.

[Lars]

What kind of numbers did Hakeem put up when he was 34?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

He had a good season at 33 but started seriously declining shortly thereafter. Notice games missed.

[GSH]

The Rockets traded Hakeem before his 18the season in the league. By then, he had played in 47, 50, 44, and 58 games the previous four seasons. For the Rockets, it was the right move basketball wise, but I still wouldn't do it as a franchise if it were up to me.

However, when he was 34, he put up 23.2pts on 51%, 9.2 Reb, 1.50 Stl, 2.22Blks.

That was the season just before he turned 34 - splitting hairs, I know. But damned good numbers. The next two that I listed were after he turned 34. The other thing is that he had heart and blood clot problems. But his body was far from worn out.

My point was, all they got for Hakeem was a couple of picks. The best one landed Nachbar, who averaged something like 3 PPG for the Rockets. In Hakeem's last, injury-plagued season with Toronto, he was still better than Nachbar.

The only big worth talking about in this draft is Griffen, and I don't think he'll be out-performing Duncan in the next 4 seasons. Last year? We could have gotten Brooke Lopez. Or Greg Oden the year before that.

If the goal is winning another trophy or two in the near future, the answer isn't in trading Duncan. If Duncan's knee turns out to be as limiting as Hakeem's health problems (and there was no way of forseeing that) then I still wouldn't trade him for someone of Nachbar's caliber. You're not going to build a franchise around Brooke Lopez, either. And if Oden ever plays as many games as Hakeem did after he was 34, we can talk about him.
[Edit: Two drafts ago, we could have gotten Al Horford. He's considered one of the good young bigs out of the last few drafts. Last season: 11.5 PPG and 9.3 boards. Not bad. But I'll take my championship chances with a 34 year old Duncan.]

[rascal]

No, we'll just sign him to a huge extension next summer and pray he stays healthy. That's what the last two years have been about in the post season. If Ginobli were healthy then we might have another championship or two right now.

We like to bag on Finley, Vaughn, Bonner, Oberto, Udoka, Pop and so on as the reasons we failed this year and last. It has nothing to do with Ginobli's absence.


Nope even with a healthy Manu the spurs were not winning this year or last.
A healthy Manu is not enough of a difference maker from winning only 1 playoff game to being good enough to win a championship.

The Manu is not healthy excuse is hiding the fact the spurs are not a deep talented team. They need to overhaul much of the roster now with youth and athleticism and build around their best two players Parker and Duncan.

[Mel_13]

The time was probably two years ago for the Spurs to make some moves.

Best hope for now:

Summer 2009
1) Pray a lot for Mahinmi to develop into an NBA player
2) Sign that Yiannis Bourousis character

2009-10 season
1) Try to package some combination of expiring contracts for a quality small forward before the trade deadline

Summer 2010
1) Draft a young wing
2) Pray that they haven't alienated Tiago Splitter

Then the Spurs could make a run in 2010-11 with a roster of Parker/Hill, Ginobili/Mason, quality small forward/young wing, Duncan/Mahinmi, Splitter/Bourousis.

Very realistic assessment. Incremental improvements this summer, at the trade deadline, and next summer. Much more likely to yield success than some all-or-nothing maneuver this summer to try and bridge the gap between the Spurs and the Lakers. Given the health status of TD and Manu and the quality of the current supporting cast, transforming this team into a championship contender in one summer is a serious longshot.

I also agree with the priorities and methods you recommend. The priority this summer should be to clear enough space to use the MLE, or most of it, on the best available big they can get. At the trade deadline look for someone desperate to dump a SF in exchange for expiring contracts. By the trade deadline they also should know enough about Manu's health to decide whether to trade him, resign him, or let his contract expire.

If they do those two things and TD and Manu return to good health, they might be able to make some noise this year. Of course, it's also possible that Manu doesn't return to health and that they barely miss the playoffs and get a late lottery pick. To me, that wouldn't be a disaster if they would start the 2010-11 season with the MLE big, the trade SF, a late lottery pick wing, and Splitter to add to TD, TP, Hill and Ian.

Now if TD has a serious decline we can begin talking about the 2012 plan.

[Extra Stout]

If Manu had been healthy, Drew Gooden still would have gone from being not good enough to stay on a 17-65 team to being the most talented frontcourt player on the Spurs not named Tim Duncan.

But it's all good. On to next season...

October 30 --- Hey, Matt Bonner grabbed 8 rebounds in the last preseason game! I think he's figuring out how to rebound -- with this and his shooting, he's got to be in the top half of NBA centers, right?.

October 31 --- The E-N just published an article about how Michael Finley is in the best shape of his life, as though 10 years have been erased! I'm not worried about our hole at small forward anymore.

November 2 --- Ian Mahinmi will be a sure thing... he's just trying to shrug off an injury down in Austin for now.

November 4 --- The Spurs' latest acquisition scored 10 points last night! Though by all appearances he was a total non-contributor with his previous team, he is really a diamond in the rough, an example of the Spurs' front-office acumen!

November 20 --- Did you read that article in the E-N about what a locker-room cancer Drew Gooden was, and how he really played a big role in the first-round loss to Dallas last year? Yeah, but the Spurs were just too classy to let out that dirty laundry before he signed that big contract in Tajikistan.

December 17 --- So Manu will miss a few games. He'll be fine. He's a warrior, and the playoffs are months away.

January 12 --- Tim is just doing an incredible job doing all the scoring, rebounding, screening, and defending in the paint by himself. Umm, I mean... the other guys are really supporting him in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet. Oh, and they have great chemistry!

February 5 --- Tim's gait is starting to look a little labored, but you know, that's just the NBA. He's fine. Oh, what, there's a knee problem? Bah. The Spurs won a title when Tim had two sprained ankles. Only the sissy non-fans show doubt! He'll just take it easy during the All-Star break.

February 20 --- Manu doesn't seem to have the same explosiveness or lift he had back in November... but... Playoff Manu!!! He had all summer off, surely he'll be fine!

March 1 --- So the Spurs are only 31-22. Who cares? SPAM, baby!

March 15 --- The only reason the Spurs are giving up 100 points a game is because Pop is stupid and refuses to play Bruce Bowen.

April 1 --- OK, so maybe SPAM didn't happen. But this team has the heart of a champion! Drive for FIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

April 21 --- OK, so Tim is out for the playoffs and needs knee surgery, and Manu looks like he's around 50%. This team still has a 1-3% percent chance of winning the NBA championship! Tony can carry them! It's actually a blessing that Oklahoma City passed us for the 7 seed, it will make it that much sweeter when we beat those overrated Lakers in the first round and keep them from repeating!

May 3 --- The Lakers sweeping us was a fluke because Tim was hurt and Manu wasn't healthy. If we'd had both of them we would have won easily.

July 1 --- The front office is so smart... we have $6.5 million in cap room! I'm sure Chris Bosh will take less money to play with Tim Duncan.

[bless1187]

if wizards were to offer lets say: 5th pick and matching salary: Etan Thomas (contract expires 2010) and Nick Young (contract expires 2010) for Manu... if i were the spurs, i'd seriously consider this offer. With the 5th pick, we'd most likely be able to get Hill, Hardens, or Evans, who are all really good prospects who could contribute right away, and we'd also get another good young guard in Nick Young.

[baseline bum]

16.5 PPG, 9.8 RB, 2.0 BPG. The next season 18.9 PPG, 9.6 RB, 2.5 BPG. David Robinson won 2 Championships after his numbers had "dwindled" to those levels. Without the heart problems (and if Scottie Pippen hadn't taken a vacation on the Rockets payroll) Hakeem might have won at least one more, too.

I watched almost every Rocket game that season (I lived in Houston at the time), and Pippen absolutely was not the problem. The problem was that Olajuwon and Barkley took turns holding the ball 10-15 seconds every possession (no exaggeration). Pippen mostly got the ball when there was 3-5 seconds left on the shot clock and thus was forced into shooting bad desperation jumpers all game long. It was maybe the ugliest offense I have ever seen. No way you can put that season on Pippen; anyone who would didn't see that team play.

[jimo2305]

we could get ricky rubio with that pick :D

[romain.star]

:nope

[Mal]

we could get ricky rubio with that pick :D

We already have one of best PG in league, who is young enough.

[Thompson]

we could get ricky rubio with that pick :D

A promising European with a monstrous buyout. Great.

[Bukefal]

We dont need Rubio. Id rather have someone else.

[Russ]

Firstly The season that Pippen Played with Charles and Hakeem was the 98-99 season.. and Hakeem average almost 19 a game in the Strike Shortened season... Secondly the Rockets finished 31-19..not bad...the in fighting came to a head in the playoffs

The season That Hakeem averaged 16 a game KEVIN WILLIS was the leading scorer of that team Then Barkley and them Clyde because Hakeem Got injured

Remember They had two solid season of Clyde HAkeem and Barley and still didn't win rings... so Pippen wasn't gonna change things dramatically in 98-99... it just came down to barkley not respecting Pippen and nobody being enough of a LEADER to squash it... Hakeem and RUDY T...


Finley Spurs SHOULD shop Manu around and ARE doing it..

if you don't believe that....


Freudian slip?

[vander]

we need to do this,
Then trade down for multiple 1st round picks, this year or this and next year, no matter. we just need to get some young prospects out there, and there's nothing that interesting at 5 IMO, unless we could somehow move up for Thabeet, but that ain't likely. a couple mid to late round SF/SG's would do this team good; especially if we keep Gooden around and Mahimni makes an impact.