Killing the Muslim world with kindness

[DarrinS]

Ironic that as much as the Obama campaign was downplaying his Muslim heritage, it is now being emphasized in his grand apology tour.

I don't know what to make of all his grand overtures to the Muslim world. Will they begin to like us? I'm a little skeptical, but then again, not much else has worked.

[JoeChalupa]

Oh please. :rolleyes

[Yonivore]

Oh please. :rolleyes
Riddle me this, then...

Why was his father agnostic or athiest, during the campaign but now, all of a sudden, Obama remembers how his father was a Muslim?

Jake Tapper, at ABC -- one of the few honest journalists left in the mainstream media -- wrote an article about this yesterday or the day before.

To mention Obama's Muslim background during the campaign was likened to racism...but, now, it's cool to be Muslim.

[redskinfan]

7 and a half more years of Yoni and darrin woo hoo!!

[clambake]

phony christian complainers thread.

[LnGrrrR]

Ironic that as much as the Obama campaign was downplaying his Muslim heritage, it is now being emphasized in his grand apology tour.

I don't know what to make of all his grand overtures to the Muslim world. Will they begin to like us? I'm a little skeptical, but then again, not much else has worked.

So... did you start following politics yesterday? :lol

[Def Rowe]

Yeah no... Obama should continue the crusader approach in the middle east. They react well to that.

[jman3000]

Oh please. :rolleyes

[jman3000]

The twist of words here is so retarded.

During the campaign he was refuting the claims by the right that he was a secret Muslim who was giving terrorist fist jabs to everyone. There's a big difference between saying you're Muslim and saying that you have Islamic heritage so that there's a point of commonality amongst him and the moderate Muslims he's trying to appeal to.

[Spurminator]

To mention Obama's Muslim background during the campaign was likened to racism...but, now, it's cool to be Muslim.

When it was mentioned during the campaign by Obama's opponents, it was meant to be derogatory and create the fear that he was going to be sympathetic to Muslim terrorists.

When it's mentioned in the context of strengthening dialogue with Muslim countries, it's a little different for anyone who isn't a liar or a moron.

[Spurminator]

The twist of words here is so retarded.

During the campaign he was refuting the claims by the right that he was a secret Muslim who was giving terrorist fist jabs to everyone. There's a big difference between saying you're Muslim and saying that you have Islamic heritage so that there's a point of commonality amongst him and the moderate Muslims he's trying to appeal to.

Beat me to it.

[boutons_deux]

more ankle-biting irrelevancy from the wrongies who'd rather occupy Muslim countries (only the one with oil) and run phony, unending wars in Muslims countries, slaughter 1000s of innocent civilians, (all those have failed to make Americans any safer) rather than try to find some common ground that increases all side's safety.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ironic that as much as the Obama campaign was downplaying his Muslim heritage, it is now being emphasized in his grand apology tour.

I don't know what to make of all his grand overtures to the Muslim world. Will they begin to like us? I'm a little skeptical, but then again, not much else has worked.

I agree. We just need to kill them all, friend and foe alike. We need to start with Muslim children.. They go first

[Cry Havoc]

Ironic that as much as the Obama campaign was downplaying his Muslim heritage, it is now being emphasized in his grand apology tour.

I don't know what to make of all his grand overtures to the Muslim world. Will they begin to like us? I'm a little skeptical, but then again, not much else has worked.


Riddle me this, then...

Why was his father agnostic or athiest, during the campaign but now, all of a sudden, Obama remembers how his father was a Muslim?

Jake Tapper, at ABC -- one of the few honest journalists left in the mainstream media -- wrote an article about this yesterday or the day before.

To mention Obama's Muslim background during the campaign was likened to racism...but, now, it's cool to be Muslim.


You guys just keep making examples of how to get completely refuted in an internet discussion. Bravo. Keep it up, it's quite amusing.

[DarrinS]

My original point was more about the tactic of handing out the olive branch, but I guess the board libs are more offended by my mentioning Obama's Muslim roots.


Here's that Jake Tapper blog/article

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/abc-news-jake-tapper-and-sunlen-miller-report-the-other-day-we-heard-a-comment-from-a-white-house-aide-that-neverwould-have.html






ABC News' Jake Tapper and Sunlen Miller report: The other day we heard a comment from a White House aide that never would have been uttered during the primaries or general election campaign.

During a conference call in preparation for President Obama's trip to Cairo, Egypt, where he will address the Muslim world, deputy National Security Adviser for Strategic Communications Denis McDonough said "the President himself experienced Islam on three continents before he was able to -- or before he's been able to visit, really, the heart of the Islamic world -- you know, growing up in Indonesia, having a Muslim father -- obviously Muslim Americans (are) a key part of Illinois and Chicago."

Given widespread unease and prejudice against Muslims among Americans, especially in the wake of 9/11, the Obama campaign was perhaps understandably very sensitive during the primaries and general election to downplay the candidate's Muslim roots.

The candidate was even offended when referred to by his initials "BHO," because he considered the use of his middle name, "Hussein," an attempt to frighten voters.

With insane rumors suggesting he was some sort of Muslim Manchurian candidate, then-Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and his campaign did everything they could to emphasize his Christianity and de-emphasize the fact that his father, Barack Obama Sr., was born Muslim.

The candidate's comment at a Boca Raton, Florida, town hall meeting on May 22, 2008, was typical: "My father was basically agnostic, as far as I can tell, and I didn't know him," he said.

In September 2008, candidate Obama told a Pennsylvania crowd, "I know that I'm not your typical presidential candidate and I just want to be honest with you. I know that the temptation is to say, 'You know what? The guy hasn't been there that long in Washington. You know, he's got a funny name. You know, we're not sure about him.' And that's what the Republicans when they say this isn't about issues, it's about personalities, what they're really saying is, 'We're going to try to scare people about Barack. So we're going to say that, you know, maybe he's got Muslim connections.'...Just making stuff up."

Back then, the campaign's "Fight the Smears" website addressed the candidate's faith without mentioning his father's religion:

"Barack Obama is a committed Christian. He was sworn into the Senate on his family Bible. He has regularly attended church with his wife and daughters for years. But shameful, shadowy attackers have been lying about Barack’s religion, claiming he is a Muslim instead of a committed Christian. When people fabricate stories about someone’s faith to denigrate them politically, that’s an attack on people of all faiths. Make sure everyone you know is aware of this deception."

The website also provided quotes from the Boston Globe and Newsweek mentioning his father's roots.

Since the election, however, with the threat of the rumors at least somewhat abated, the White House has been increasingly forthcoming about the president's roots. Especially when reaching out to the
Muslim world.

In his April 6 address to the Turkish Parliament, President Obama referenced how many "Americans have Muslims in their families or have lived in a Muslim majority country. I know, because I am one of them."

- Jake Tapper and Sunlen Miller





In his Cairo speech, Obama emphasized his middle name.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You guys just keep making examples of how to get completely refuted in an internet discussion. Bravo. Keep it up, it's quite amusing.
i thought it was in planning for the celebration of obama's assassination? hmm. who knews.
amusing, indeed.

[Def Rowe]

In his Cairo speech, Obama emphasized his middle name.

Good.

[Spurminator]

My original point was more about the tactic of handing out the olive branch, but I guess the board libs are more offended by my mentioning Obama's Muslim roots.


Read the first sentence of your first post again. Want to discuss a certain topic? Don't muddy it up with bullshit.

[boutons_deux]

Magik Negro played it smart with his name during the campaign, and he's playing it smart with name now, outsmarting his opponents in both cases. dubya/dickhead/neo-c*nts left the ME and west Asia as a total disaster zone, without improving Americans' or world security. HUSSEIN! is trying something different.

[DarrinS]

Magik Negro played it smart with his name during the campaign, and he's playing it smart with name now, outsmarting his opponents in both cases. dubya/dickhead/neo-c*nts left the ME and west Asia as a total disaster zone, without improving Americans' or world security. HUSSEIN! is trying something different.


Even though you are a retarded douchebag, you at least addressed the issue -- well, in your own special way.

[LnGrrrR]

Again, for the board Repubs...

Obama. Is. A. Politician.

Politicians are hypocrites all the time. They spin something one way to please one crowd, and they spin it another way to please another crowd.

Frankly, any politician who doesn't do that isn't doing a good job, I feel. It's one thing to lie blatantly, it's another to spin.

[ChumpDumper]

My original point was more about the tactic of handing out the olive branch.Too bad it wasn't your first point.

Are we at war with Egypt?

[Bender]

Again, for the board Repubs...
just call me a bored repub...

[Supergirl]

Yes, Obama is trying to utilize his unique racial heritage to try a new tactic in foreign policy - diplomacy.

The article *I* read about this issue pointed out, accurately, that Obama is not claiming his father was a Muslim. His father was a "confirmed atheist" -- according to Obama's book -- but was raised Muslim. Obama himself was raised without a religion, but was baptized as a young man at Trinity Baptist Church in Chicago. He attended Muslim schools, Catholic schools, and secular schools all over the world.

There is probably not a person on this planet better poised to bridge the huge gap between the Muslim world and the Western world, between the racial, religious, and economic differences in America and the world. It doesn't mean it will work, but credit Obama for trying to use his unique heritage in a diplomatic way.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i guess we should just send joan rivers over to bridge the gap between the jews and the muslims. there's not a better person on the planet to do that being that she won the apprentice.

:rolleyes

[Creepn]

i guess we should just send joan rivers over to bridge the gap between the jews and the muslims. there's not a better person on the planet to do that being that she won the apprentice.

:rolleyes


Who the fuck is Joan Rivers?

Who the fuck is Barack Obama? Oh hes the president of the United States of America.

[hope4dopes]

Yes, Obama is trying to utilize his unique racial heritage to try a new tactic in foreign policy - diplomacy.

The article *I* read about this issue pointed out, accurately, that Obama is not claiming his father was a Muslim. His father was a "confirmed atheist" -- according to Obama's book -- but was raised Muslim. Obama himself was raised without a religion, but was baptized as a young man at Trinity Baptist Church in Chicago. He attended Muslim schools, Catholic schools, and secular schools all over the world.

There is probably not a person on this planet better poised to bridge the huge gap between the Muslim world and the Western world, between the racial, religious, and economic differences in America and the world. It doesn't mean it will work, but credit Obama for trying to use his unique heritage in a diplomatic way.


O.K. now this is the retarted shit that's got the "bored Repugs" and the Isrealites a little nervous

"There is probably not a person on this planet better to bridge the huge gap between the Muslim world and the Westeren world"

[ChumpDumper]

Why are you nervous?

[hope4dopes]

Never in the history of this nation or few other nations has a leader arisien with this nauseating messianic like cult following, and Obama not only discouraged this messianic rehtoric during his campaign he encouraged it with a wink and a nod.

We have here a man who has accomplished next to nothing except peddle his race to a bunch of racists and dumb white upper middle class liberals, a product of the radical chic. A man who for all intents and purposes is nothing more than a community organizer......and yet we have hare brains saying that a racist, anti semitic community organizer with admittedly good pecs, that can send shivers down a white liberals legs at a country mile, a man with no outstanding qualities other than a talking head that sellable to the american idol voting bloc, is somehow the most qualifyed person ON THE PALNET to bridge the gap between the Muslim world and the West.

[Nbadan]

......your just envious cause Bush sucked.......Obama's best 7.6 years are still ahead of him..

[David Bowie]

Never in the history of this nation or few other nations has a leader arisien with this nauseating messianic like cult following, and Obama not only discouraged this messianic rehtoric during his campaign he encouraged it with a wink and a nod.

We have here a man who has accomplished next to nothing except peddle his race to a bunch of racists and dumb white upper middle class liberals, a product of the radical chic. A man who for all intents and purposes is nothing more than a community organizer......and yet we have hare brains saying that a racist, anti semitic community organizer with admittedly good pecs, that can send shivers down a white liberals legs at a country mile, a man with no outstanding qualities other than a talking head that sellable to the american idol voting bloc, is somehow the most qualifyed person ON THE PALNET to bridge the gap between the Muslim world and the West.

:tu

I actually think that Obama is one with the Muslim terroists and is being supported financially by them. Him coming to power has been in the works for a long time imo. He actually told the French press that United States is one of the Largest Muslim Nations in the world.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131681

But I'm sure all the liberals will still masturbate to Obama's image when terrorists infiltrate the U.S. and Israel even more then they have already

[Winehole23]

We have here a man who has accomplished next to nothing except peddle his race to a bunch of racists and dumb white upper middle class liberals, a product of the radical chic. A man who for all intents and purposes is nothing more than a community organizer......I didn't vote for Obama, never been a big fan, but this is just silly. See for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Editor then President of Harvard Law Review, Illinois State Senator three times, Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago, US Senator.

That's a pretty good resume for anyone.


and yet we have hare brains saying that a racist, anti semitic community organizer with admittedly good pecsHow observant! :lol


that can send shivers down a white liberals legs at a country mile, a man with no outstanding qualities other than a talking head that [is] sellable to the american idol voting bloc, is somehow the most qualifyed person ON THE PALNET to bridge the gap between the Muslim world and the WestAnd to college graduates, who are defecting from the GOP at record speed. Do you ever wonder why...

It's because of idiots like you, micca.

Fuck you.

[ChumpDumper]

He never said why he was nervous.

[Winehole23]

He never said why he was nervous.Maybe it's the flip side of being freaked out about Sarah Palin's Dominionism or GWB's Methodism.

Or it could be the Antichrist bullshit again.

[hope4dopes]

I didn't vote for Obama, never been a big fan, but this is just silly. See for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Editor then President of Harvard Law Review, Illinois State Senator three times, Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago, US Senator.

That's a pretty good resume for anyone.

How observant! :lol

And to college graduates, who are defecting from the GOP at record speed. Do you ever wonder why...

It's because of idiots like you, micca.

Fuck you.


hey precious...You've shed your erudite foppish tomfoolery and descended into the gutter with potty mouth.....how the mighty have fallen. Tell me how did obama become editor of the law review oh and how did he get into harvard, and why won't he release his SAT scores or any of his college transcripts.... , get off your knees wipe Obama off your chin and explain how your jug eared dolt is THE BEST PERSON ON THE PLANET TO BRING ISLAM AND THE WEST TOGETHER.

[ChumpDumper]

He never said why he was nervous.

[Winehole23]

Tell me how did obama become editor of the law reviewI don't know. Merit?


oh and how did he get into harvard, and why won't he release his SAT scores or any of his college transcripts...I don't know. Maybe Obama did well enough at Columbia to get into Harvard.

As for his college records, how are they germane to anything?


get off your knees wipe Obama off your chinYou've got quite the imagination.


and explain how your jug eared dolt is THE BEST PERSON ON THE PLANET TO BRING ISLAM AND THE WEST TOGETHER.Maybe because his middle name is Hussein and he leads the most powerful "western" country, the USA? I know it doesn't impress you very much, but being President of the USA still counts for a lot for some people.

Hell, I didn't say it. Why should I defend it? Go bother Supergirl with your penny-ante bullshit.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm not a fan of the State creating a problem and then expecting the people to pay for it, be it monetarily or in blood. If kissing some ass deescalates other state and non-state violence, and perhaps makes access to cheaper energy a reality, what's the problem?

Not every answer to diplomatic problems entails pushing the easy Pentagon button.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm nervous! Shoot now!

[Marcus Bryant]

hey precious...You've shed your erudite foppish tomfoolery and descended into the gutter with potty mouth.....how the mighty have fallen. Tell me how did obama become editor of the law review oh and how did he get into harvard, and why won't he release his SAT scores or any of his college transcripts.... , get off your knees wipe Obama off your chin and explain how your jug eared dolt is THE BEST PERSON ON THE PLANET TO BRING ISLAM AND THE WEST TOGETHER.

Well, we know for certain that Poppy Bush didn't pay for that.

My God, why are "conservatives" even going down that route?

[hope4dopes]

Well, we know for certain that Poppy Bush didn't pay for that.

My God, why are "conservatives" even going down that route?

So you find Obama as well to be the most qualified person ON THE PLANET to bring islam and the west together...will that be before or after he changes water into wine ..... there is this unwillingness to address the messianic mythology being manufactured we're all supposed to buy it. My God why are "liberals" trying to get us to abandoning critical thought.

[ChumpDumper]

He's not the messiah.

There. I addressed it.

[ChumpDumper]

He could be the mahdi, though....

[hope4dopes]

I'm not a fan of the State creating a problem and then expecting the people to pay for it, be it monetarily or in blood. If kissing some ass deescalates other state and non-state violence, and perhaps makes access to cheaper energy a reality, what's the problem?

Not every answer to diplomatic problems entails pushing the easy Pentagon button.
That's true but, what was the price paid for chamberlin's "diplomacy."

[ChumpDumper]

That's true but, what was the price paid for chamberlin's "diplomacy."In what way was Obama's speech like Chamberlain's diplomacy?

[hope4dopes]

He could be the mahdi, though....

So you feel his view as closer to the mahdi's..... well it would explain the Rev. wright.

[ChumpDumper]

So you feel his view as closer to the mahdi's..... well it would explain the Rev. wright.I feel you are a complete dumbass for not getting the joke -- and that wouldn't even explain anything to do with Wright.

[Marcus Bryant]

So you find Obama as well to be the most qualified person ON THE PLANET to bring islam and the west together...will that be before or after he changes water into wine ..... there is this unwillingness to address the messianic mythology being manufactured we're all supposed to buy it. My God why are "liberals" trying to get us to abandoning critical thought.

I said no such thing. Why do "conservatives" show disdain for simple logic?

[Marcus Bryant]

That's true but, what was the price paid for chamberlin's "diplomacy."

What's the price paid for overkill?

[ChumpDumper]

I said no such thing. Why do "conservatives" show disdain for simple logic?No shit. They wonder why they are out of power. Liberals might have the wrong answers but at least they can tell what the questions are.[stolen from someone I can't remember]

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, since when is one a "liberal" (in the modern sense) for desiring something other than the State dragging the people into yet another war?

[hope4dopes]

I feel you are a complete dumbass for not getting the joke -- and that wouldn't even explain anything to do with Wright.

Ah meltdown for the monkey

[Spurminator]

:tu

I actually think that Obama is one with the Muslim terroists and is being supported financially by them. Him coming to power has been in the works for a long time imo. He actually told the French press that United States is one of the Largest Muslim Nations in the world.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131681

But I'm sure all the liberals will still masturbate to Obama's image when terrorists infiltrate the U.S. and Israel even more then they have already


:wow

I had to do a double take on the person who posted this. Are you joking? I never had you pegged as batshit insane.

[David Bowie]

:wow

I had to do a double take on the person who posted this. Are you joking? I never had you pegged as batshit insane.

Well, I lean far left in domestic policy (pro gay marriege, affirmative action, abortion, etc.) and far right in foreign policy. I absolutly hate terrorist apologists and I hate it that Obama is trying to appeace nations that openly hate the United Sates and Israel and think that we are the root of all evil. He reminds me of Jimmy Carter who didn't do anything while Iran held American hostages for a whole year. And yes, I do think it's possible that Obama is affiliated with the terrorists.

[Winehole23]

You'll fit right in around here DB. It'll help that you're not mentally robust.:monkey

[ChumpDumper]

Ah meltdown for the monkeyAre you seriously accusing someone else of melting down?
:rollin:rollin:rollin

[ChumpDumper]

And yes, I do think it's possible that Obama is affiliated with the terrorists.Please explain this theory of yours as fully as you possibly can.
:corn:

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

The GOP has no fucking hope in the next mid terms. Look at this thread. Just look at it.

[Extra Stout]

There is probably not a person on this planet better poised to bridge the huge gap between the Muslim world and the Western world, between the racial, religious, and economic differences in America and the world.
That's laying it on a little thick. He's just a man.


:tu

I actually think that Obama is one with the Muslim terroists and is being supported financially by them.
Not that just; Obama flew the planes into the WTC by remote control, pushed the button to collapse WTC 7, infiltrated the banks to create the financial crisis, AND rigged the voting so Adam Lambert would lose American Idol. ALLAHU AKBAR!!!! :tu


Tell me how did obama become editor of the law review oh and how did he get into harvard, and why won't he release his SAT scores or any of his college transcripts....
Well, obviously, it can't be on merit since he's just a dumb Negro, right?


No shit. They wonder why they are out of power. Liberals might have the wrong answers but at least they can tell what the questions are.[stolen from someone I can't remember] From me. You're welcome.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well, I lean far left in domestic policy (pro gay marriege, affirmative action, abortion, etc.) and far right in foreign policy. I absolutly hate terrorist apologists and I hate it that Obama is trying to appeace nations that openly hate the United Sates and Israel and think that we are the root of all evil. He reminds me of Jimmy Carter who didn't do anything while Iran held American hostages for a whole year. And yes, I do think it's possible that Obama is affiliated with the terrorists.

Welcome to the board dead ender!

[Supergirl]

Check out Jon Stewart's take on the backlash to Obama's speech in Cairo:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=229008&title=looking-for-comity-in-the

[jman3000]

I liked how some of the radio hosts yesterday were making fun of the Koran's story of Isra (where Mohammed, Abraham, and Jesus all got together and chilled) ... as if that's so far fetched... but 800 year old men, a boat filled with every species on Earth, turning water into wine, talking shrubbery, talking donkeys, and talking snakes are all par for the course.

[DarrinS]

There is probably not a person on this planet better poised to bridge the huge gap between the Muslim world and the Western world, between the racial, religious, and economic differences in America and the world. It doesn't mean it will work, but credit Obama for trying to use his unique heritage in a diplomatic way.



Well, he may well be the best person to do it, but he has to walk a fine line between The Power of Positive Appeasement and projecting American power. It just seems to me that he is loath to project American strength and resolve. America is the lone superpower, not because of arrogance (which he keeps saying), but because of what this country has done throughout history. Americans should be proud of that history, but it appears that Mr. Obama is ashamed of it, and that disappoints me.

[jman3000]

America is the lone superpower, not because of arrogance (which he keeps saying),

I hate to pull a Chump Dumper... but when did he say that? He actually said that America is a lone superpower because we're arrogant?

[Darrin]

Again, for the board Repubs...

Obama. Is. A. Politician.

Politicians are hypocrites all the time. They spin something one way to please one crowd, and they spin it another way to please another crowd.

Frankly, any politician who doesn't do that isn't doing a good job, I feel. It's one thing to lie blatantly, it's another to spin.

As an ardent supporter of President Obama, it doesn't mean we can't lose respect for the time he spun it one way. The fact is it's easier to explain you don't have any connection to it than to tell the stories he told yesterday. One way affects the polls in a positive direction in short soundbytes and little discord (or discourse), the other leaves people wondering what the truth is?

Still, he may not be lying. Saying that you're emersed in one culture and hold the belief systems of another is just having a minority opinion. In other words, being Christian, especially in America, doesn't mean that you never are exposed to the Muslim faith.

[jman3000]

I agree with his assessment that America as a lone superpower will invetibly fail. I can't see the logic behind trying to refute that.

It's just too much strain monetarily and militarily to pretty much police the entire world for an extended period of time. Just because we're super bad ass doesn't mean we have to sit there flexing our muscle at maximum capacity indefinately. The pussy ass Euro's need to step up to the plate and contribute more instead of piggy backing us in order to get all the rewards and none of the responsibility.

[DarrinS]

I hate to pull a Chump Dumper... but when did he say that? He actually said that America is a lone superpower because we're arrogant?


Well, it's implied.


This part of his Cairo speech is pretty telling.





We meet at a time of tension between the United States and Muslims around the world - tension rooted in historical forces that go beyond any current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam.

[baseline bum]

Wow. I can't believe there's another person here who thinks Obama is a terrorist. :pctoss

[DarrinS]

Wow. I can't believe there's another person here who thinks Obama is a terrorist. :pctoss


Yeah, that's ridiculous.


I just wish Obama was more JFK and less Jimmy Carter.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i can't believe midterm elections can be predicted through a silly message board. i must've missed the memo.

[Winehole23]

Well, it's implied.


This part of his Cairo speech is pretty telling.Telling w/r/t what? Is there some part of the passage that strikes you as historically inaccurate?

There were European colonies in the ME until the end of WWII. After WWII, the region was divvied up into US and Soviet proxies, which meant we ended up in bed with some pretty unsavory strongmen, and our role in the 1953 overthrow of of Mossadegh in Iran is undisputed.

What are you disputing, Darrin? Obama's accurate recitation of the facts?

[DarrinS]

Telling w/r/t what? Is there some part of the passage that strikes you as historically inaccurate?

There were European colonies in the ME until the end of WWII. After WWII, the region was divvied up into US and Soviet proxies, which meant we ended up in bed with some pretty unsavory strongmen, and our role in the 1953 overthrow of of Mossadegh in Iran is undisputed.

What are you disputing, Darrin? Obama's accurate recitation of the facts?



Well, I guess you think 30 years of terrorism is our fault too. Bravo.


It's strange that so many of those former colonies aren't flying airplanes into American and British buildings.

[Winehole23]

Moreover, modernity and globalization dissolve all traditional cultures, not just Islam.

[jman3000]

Well, it's implied.


This part of his Cairo speech is pretty telling.

nothing in what you posted sayed anything about America being arrogant.

after WWI France and Britain pretty much owed the Middle East. they set up boundaries based on man made or geographical criteria and pretty much held no regard for exactly who lived on that land.

I think you think he was talking about our occupation of Iraq... but when he uses the word "colonialism" it pretty much points to the treatment the Middle East experienced under harsh French / British rule. I mean just look at their colonial track record. pretty much everywhere they've set up shop they've pissed people off and created resentment.

[Winehole23]

Well, I guess you think 30 years of terrorism is our fault too. Bravo.Did I say so? No.

The reality of the grievances doesn't justify terrorism, but it's part of the context. You like your blinkers. I prefer history. Vive le difference.

[DarrinS]

nothing in what you posted sayed anything about America being arrogant.

after WWI France and Britain pretty much owed the Middle East. they set up boundaries based on man made or geographical criteria and pretty much held no regard for exactly who lived on that land.

I think you think he was talking about our occupation of Iraq... but when he uses the word "colonialism" it pretty much points to the treatment the Middle East experienced under harsh French / British rule. I mean just look at their colonial track record. pretty much everywhere they've set up shop they've pissed people off and created resentment.



And yet India isn't bombing England.


The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain. Their lack of progress is their own fault. It is their choice.

[jman3000]

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.

[jman3000]

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.


And yet India isn't bombing England.


The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain. Their lack of progress is their own fault. It is their choice.

[Winehole23]

The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain. Rilly? Link, please?

[DarrinS]

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.


I agree with what you're saying. That's why I said in a previous post that he needs to walk a fine line. I just think he's a little TOO apologetic. In his Cairo speech, Obama was applauded every time he said something positive about Islam, but every time he was the slightest bit critical, he just got stares and crickets. If all of this works and jihad dies as a movement, more power to him, but I just have my doubts.

[DarrinS]

Rilly? Link, please?

You don't know how to use the internets?

[jman3000]

and india was bombing the english. if it wasn't for people like Ghandi that shit would have really hit the fan.

[DarrinS]

Rilly? Link, please?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

[Winehole23]

You don't know how to use the internets?It's not my job to back up what you say.

[DarrinS]

It's not my job to back up what you say.


I posted a link, but you'll have to use your own calculator.

[Winehole23]

Plus which, you've yet to establish any rep in this forum for reliability, evenhandedness and veracity. Face it: you're a shill for Right-Blogistan, DarrinS.

[DarrinS]

Plus which, you've yet to establish any rep in this forum for reliability, evenhandedness and veracity. Face it: you're a shill for Right-Blogistan, DarrinS.


Good Lord, WH, don't be such a drama queen. After all, I did vote for the man.


Like I said in a previous post in this thread, I just wish Obama was more a JFK-type democrat and less Jimmy Carter.

[Winehole23]

Checks out, but leaves me unsure why the comparison is a putdown. By "Arab world, I suppose you mean the Arabian peninsula and the Levant, plus Iraq. That they come up short of the world's eighth largest GDP might be impressive to some people, particularly considering the geographical differences.

[jman3000]

the Middle East is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to economic development. Most countries start as an agrarian economy, and slowly work their way up to manufacturing and industrialization, and then on to more complex things like banking and financial services. These countries don't have shit for land that is arable and due to the discovery of oil were basically shot from square 0 to square 4 in a couple decades. I'm assuming their GDP is so low because they lean on oil production too much and haven't diversified any part of their economy. non oil producing regions are supremely fucked.

[DarrinS]

Checks out, but leaves me unsure why the comparison is a putdown. By "Arab world, I suppose you mean the Arabian peninsula and the Levant, plus Iraq. That they come up short of the world's eighth largest GDP might be impressive to some people, particularly considering the geographical differences.



Given that they had such advanced civilizations in ancient times and excelled in areas of science and engineering and that, currently, many of these countries have significant resources, e.g. oil, it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world. I guess that's what happens when you want to cover up females and deny them access to education.

[Winehole23]

I guess that's what happens when you want to cover up females and deny them access to education.In Iraq, this is a post-invasion, post-democracy phenomenon.

[Winehole23]

it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world. Why is that? Is the modern world better in every way?

[DarrinS]

Why is that? Is the modern world better in every way?

yes

[jman3000]

Islam forbids all forms of intoxicants. Does that make them more moral than us?

I don't believe that women should be covered up or denied education. it's stupid.

but perhaps we shouldn't be declaring our moral / cultural superiority when we all have our problems and we all have things in our culture that are wrong.

[DarrinS]

Islam forbids all forms of intoxicants. Does that make them more moral than us?

I don't believe that women should be covered up or denied education. it's stupid.

but perhaps we shouldn't be declaring our moral / cultural superiority when we all have our problems and we all have things in our culture that are wrong.



Don't you find it odd that so many Muslims are emigrating to Europe and the US, societies that they abhor?

[jman3000]

Just because you move to another place doesn't mean you don't take your religion with you. It's not the state that outlaws intoxicants... it's the religion.

are there non practicing muslims? yeah... just like there are non practicing christians. explanations for things are more complex and often require more deliberation than just taking it at face value.

[jman3000]

i mean i could just say "don't you find it odd that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world" ... and walk off like i just pwned you or something... but i know that it has a lot more to do with 3rd world birthrates in indonesia and africa and less to do with people going .."geez this religion is great... ill convert"

[Winehole23]

it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world.Really, Darrin, what do you know about Arab culture?

If not for modernity, Wahhabism still would be a tribal oddity, rather than a sect of world-historical significance.

The notion that anyone whose civilization hasn't been deracinated by liberal mass culture is living in the dark, is chauvinism plain and simple.

[ChumpDumper]

No shit. They wonder why they are out of power. Liberals might have the wrong answers but at least they can tell what the questions are.[stolen from someone I can't remember]
From me. You're welcome.:toast It's a good one. At least I made an attempt at attribution.

[Supergirl]

Could we please stop conflating Arab culture and Islam? Not all Arabs are Muslim, not all Muslims are Arab. There are countries that are currently Arab dictatorships, and countries that currently have Islamic regimes. Let's make sure we're defining our terms correctly before spouting off opinions.

[FaithInOne]

I respect that the muslims don't allow pretty words to rot their judgment.

[Winehole23]

(Retracted.)

Please tell us more about the dearth of *pretty words* in the Islamic tradition. Do you happen to speak Arabic or Farsi, F-n-1?

Don't hoard the knowledge, Profe. :lol