What Obama's socialism looks like

[Cry Havoc]

http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/conor_clarke/2009/06/what_socialism_looks_like.php

What Socialism Looks Like

Have you heard that the United States is headed toward socialism? Jonah Goldberg says it is. Alabama Senator Richard Shelby says it is. Phyllis Schlafly says it is. Richard Viguerie says it is. The Republican National Committee says it is. We must be getting pretty close.

How close? This is what socialism looks like:

http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/conor_clarke/socialism%20chart.png

The hot-pink portion of this pie chart is the percentage of listed American business assets that have recently been nationalized by the American government (ie, General Motors). Obama's version of socialism is so sneaky you can hardly see it!

(And there is some reason to think this actually overstates the portion of the corporate landscape that's been nationalized, but more on that at the end of the post.*)

There is a serious discussion to be had here, and I think Jon Henke is having it: Socialism, like farenheit, comes in degrees. Sure, a government that nationalizes GM is "more socialist" than one that does not, even if it doesn't mean we're living "under socialism." But differences of degree shouldn't obscure differences of kind, and as Tim Fernholz says, "it's clear that putting the government in charge of private production is not the Obama administration's guiding philosophy."

If it were, 99.79% of the American corporate assets that existed at the start of the Obama administration would not remain in private hands. The differences of degree are so small that they aren't worth mentioning. And yet, somehow, they keep getting mentioned.

Update: A couple of commenters have asked for a different chart, so I've posted another item on this here.

http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/conor_clarke/2009/06/what_socialism_looks_like_part_two.php

[Bender]

it's only been 5 months...give it time.


Change doesn't happen overnight.

[Creepn]

it's only been 5 months...give it time.

:lol

[Wild Cobra]

Obama Consumer Products:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/OCP_logo.jpg

[DarrinS]

If you only have 0.21% cancer, it won't spread. Just kidding.

[Wild Cobra]

If you only have 0.21% cancer, it won't spread. Just kidding.
LOL...

I like that example. Afterall, that's what socialism is. A cancer growing upon the American way.

[Creepn]

Sooo....socialism started with Obama? I could've sworn socialism is older than some of yall here but I guess now is a good time to point that out.

[Bender]

Lots of blissninnys on this board:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_p7QJgEYdOeg/R2899iIejrI/AAAAAAAAAIE/lrPwIP3oq30/s400/blissninny.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://arthist.binghamton.edu/pushpin.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

Sooo....socialism started with Obama? I could've sworn socialism is older than some of yall here but I guess now is a good time to point that out.

No, but he is and this congress plan to expand it faster than ever.

[FaithInOne]

Your government cares more about growing themselves than the economy.

It's disgusting.

[ChumpDumper]

So which other businesses are they taking over?

What percentage of the business assets listed above do they plan on controlling?

Let's see your numbers.

[jacobdrj]

Obama Consumer Products:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/OCP_logo.jpg

That is some funny shit. :lmao

The government shouldn't have bailed out AIG, or any of the other financial instatutions. Period.

[PixelPusher]

Lots of blissninnys on this board:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_p7QJgEYdOeg/R2899iIejrI/AAAAAAAAAIE/lrPwIP3oq30/s400/blissninny.jpg

Lots of doomsayers on this board:

http://jaggedsmile.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/doomsayer1.jpg

[boutons_deux]

wrongies prefer that Citi, BoA, Chrysler, GM, Wells Fargo and dozens of other screwed companies go bankrupt without US participation, meaning almost certainly liquidation. The wrongies don't have solutions, only trivial, incessant whinings.

[Wild Cobra]

That is some funny shit. :lmao

The government shouldn't have bailed out AIG, or any of the other financial instatutions. Period.
And it looks like they are going to turn Detroit into Delta City...

I think most people here are too young to know where that symbol comes from, or its significance. Seem to have no responses from the times I've posted it.

[ducks]

So which other businesses are they taking over?

What percentage of the business assets listed above do they plan on controlling?

Let's see your numbers.

why in the fucking hell do they take over any?
one is to fucking fucking fucking fucking many

[ducks]

wrongies prefer that Citi, BoA, Chrysler, GM, Wells Fargo and dozens of other screwed companies go bankrupt without US participation, meaning almost certainly liquidation. The wrongies don't have solutions, only trivial, incessant whinings.

let them fail
people lived without them before
idiot
or and wells fargo made big money last quarter
they not need to worry about going down the toliet

[Wild Cobra]

wrongies prefer that Citi, BoA, Chrysler, GM, Wells Fargo and dozens of other screwed companies go bankrupt without US participation, meaning almost certainly liquidation. The wrongies don't have solutions, only trivial, incessant whinings.
BoA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoA)?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Kwonboa.jpg

Couldn't resist. One of my younger daughter's favorite singers.

[boutons_deux]

Wild Goober doesn't get out much. Somebody let him on the secret code BoA. BoniVore? Buehler? Anyone?

[Marcus Bryant]

Of course, that defines "socialism" as direct ownership.

[jacobdrj]

And it looks like they are going to turn Detroit into Delta City...

I think most people here are too young to know where that symbol comes from, or its significance. Seem to have no responses from the times I've posted it.

I don't come to the political forum every day. Some of you guys are just too extreme for me. (I am moderate-independent, who generally leans left on domestic policy and right on foregin policy).

OMG! I didn't even think about the Detroit-Delta City thing! HAHAHA! AWESOME.

I actualy wish they would burn Detroit down and create a Delta City. All they have to do is give us mass transit... Something along the lines of Washington DC, combined with the high-speed rail to connect the main educational centers...

But the Delta City angle. Brilliant!



6000 SUX - An American Tradition!

[Nbadan]

Fuck...its working for the Chinese...

[SnakeBoy]

So which other businesses are they taking over?

What percentage of the business assets listed above do they plan on controlling?

Let's see your numbers.


Healthcare industry is about 15% gdp.

[ChumpDumper]

Is the plan to take over all the assets?

[SnakeBoy]

Tell me exactly what the plan is and I'll give you an answer.

[ChumpDumper]

Tell me exactly what the plan is and I'll give you an answer.I asked you to tell me what the plan is.

[Blake]

would Bush have let GM go under?

if not, how would he have handled the situation?

[Winehole23]

This (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-06-03-benefits_N.htm) would be another way to look at it.

[Marcus Bryant]

Look at the bright side. When the various benefit schemes bankrupt it, at least we will not have had a 'socialist' government in these here United States.

[jman3000]

I'll make up my mind about these quasi government takeovers later. If the government holds on to those shares indefinately, then I'd be pretty disappointed, however, if they are able to gradually sell them back to the public after they appreciate in value a bit, then I'd be happy they made the move. Time will tell.

[Creepn]

Im not a huge economics business buff but dont the majority of businesses, like say over 95%, asks for the goverment to step in? And in exchange for governement help, they get ahold of some of those assets?

[FaithInOne]

Government is awesome at giving up control. I'm sure they will release this bird as soon as GM finds its wings again. Why would the far-left government want to control the country's biggest automotive company while they try to push environmental fascism?

And another thing. Michael Moore just about creamed his tight pants this week when talking about how THE PEOPLE now own GM and Banks. What a loser. THE PEOPLE don't own shit. Their money is being stolen, their currency inflated, and their country bankrupted.

On the upside, he finally dropped a couple lbs. Although, I think Rush is owning him on The Biggest MouthLoser.

[coyotes_geek]

I'll make up my mind about these quasi government takeovers later. If the government holds on to those shares indefinately, then I'd be pretty disappointed, however, if they are able to gradually sell them back to the public after they appreciate in value a bit, then I'd be happy they made the move. Time will tell.

The government will get rid of the shares, but not to the benefit of the public. GM and Chrysler are doomed to fail because it's the union costs which buried those companies and the unions are the ones who Obama wants to save. The unions made token concessions, but not nearly enough to result in sustainable companies, so what we'll end up with is either the government just donating their shares to the UAW, or selling them to the public with those proceeds going to the UAW. Either way, the Taxpayers can kiss that money goodbye.


Im not a huge economics business buff but dont the majority of businesses, like say over 95%, asks for the goverment to step in? And in exchange for governement help, they get ahold of some of those assets?

Depends on the industry. Certain industries are political pets, like automakers and airlines. They always get help when they need it, and as such are always in need of help because why try to swim when the government won't let you sink? On the other side of that coin are industries like technology and energy. Those aren't pet industries and when those industries had their bust periods (energy in the 80s and tech in the 90s) they didn't get bailouts, they got the middle finger. Lots of companies went under, lots of people lost jobs, but what resulted were surviving companies who knew how to weather tough times. It's no coincidence that tech and energy are holding up better than everyone else through all this mess.

[Bender]

why couldn't GM have divested itself of many of its satellite companies several years ago, instead of allowing itself to get to the point of needing a gov't handout? They have been losing tons of money for years.

They could have done these spin-offs and divestitures and streamlining measures a long time ago.

[cool cat]

I have a couple of question;

1. Is it supposed to be 0% nationalized?

2. If it's not socialism now at what % does it become socialism.

[jman3000]

The government will get rid of the shares, but not to the benefit of the public. GM and Chrysler are doomed to fail because it's the union costs which buried those companies and the unions are the ones who Obama wants to save. The unions made token concessions, but not nearly enough to result in sustainable companies, so what we'll end up with is either the government just donating their shares to the UAW, or selling them to the public with those proceeds going to the UAW. Either way, the Taxpayers can kiss that money goodbye.



.

If that happens then I'd never vote for another Democrat for the rest of my life. But we haven't crossed that bridge yet. Your'e dealing in assumptions... I'd prefer to wait and see. Either way there's nothing we can do.

[angrydude]

I have a couple of question;

1. Is it supposed to be 0% nationalized?

2. If it's not socialism now at what % does it become socialism.



1. Yes--of traditionally private industries. Nationalization creates a moral hazard by spreading the cost onto every single American instead of on the company itself. The cars GM makes are not public goods that we need to support because of their amazing positive externalizes. No one is complaining about the post office (or very few). If the government didn't buy the company somebody else would have and the world would have kept on spinning.

2. Everything is on a sliding scale.

[FaithInOne]

Benefits up up up

Spending up up up

Debt up up up

Government Size up up up

Unemployment up up up

Taxes up up up

Interest Rates up up up

What's with the bitching. Everything is on the up and up :toast No wonder the media is pretty relaxed and focusing on more important things like Michelle's impeccable fashion sense. So beautiful. She got her hair did ya'll!


:danceclub

[Blake]

2. If it's not socialism now at what % does it become socialism.

what's your definition of socialism?

there was never a plan or a hope that the US would own car companies. The plan and hope is still to give the companies back and have them run themselves.

this isn't like healthcare or public schools.