I shook hands with Martin Nash

[lefty]

Does that make me friend with his brother Steve ? :wtf

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Goran Dragic > Martin Nash > Steve Nash

[JMarkJohns]

DoK, where does Yuta Tabuse factor in to your rankings of Suns PGs in the Second Coming's era?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK, where does Yuta Tabuse factor in to your rankings of Suns PGs in the Second Coming's era?

:lmao Yuta Tabuse

I've posted this already but I'll never forget being at a game with my friend and him getting on Japanese TV after the game for saying his two favorite players are Amare Stoudemire and Yuta Tabuse.

[JMarkJohns]

I think the Suns cut Tabuse because he was too quick for Nash to defend in the few practices ever held... Tabuse' routinely put Nash on his caboose'.

[Nash2TimeMVp]

fake sun fans are so quick to dismiss nash, but the only reason the suns are of any relevance to the NBA right now is because of him. wow nice to see how garbage sun fans treat their best player since charles barkely. hopefully nash goes elsewhere and wins a lob.

[kamikazi_player]

I think the Suns cut Tabuse because he was too quick for Nash to defend in the few practices ever held... Tabuse' routinely put Nash on his caboose'.
:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

sons it's easy for us to say "be a man" to each other because we are real men, Nash2TimeMVp is a true sissy cuckold who's only joy in life is watching his wife get double teamed by one man who looks like Shaq and another man who looks like Goran Dragic while he just gives himself a Rosy Palm at the corner of the bed.

[lefty]

I met Steve Nash's brother



I guess it's cool.......................or not

[kamikazi_player]

sons it's easy for us to say "be a man" to each other because we are real men, Nash2TimeMVp is a true sissy cuckold who's only joy in life is watching his wife get double teamed by one man who looks like Shaq and another man who looks like Goran Dragic while he just gives himself a Rosy Palm at the corner of the bed.
:td

[poop]

all it means is that you rubbed skin with the hand he jacks off and wipes his asshole with

[lefty]

all it means is that you rubbed skin with the hand he jacks off and wipes his asshole with
:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:td

Coming from someone who says Kevin Durant has bad shooting percentages I consider that a :tu

[kamikazi_player]

Coming from someone who says Kevin Durant has bad shooting percentages I consider that a :tu
*Yawn* come with something new. Just because you fail attempting to be funny, you have nothing else but bring that up :lol

[kamikazi_player]

BrHornet45 said it and that was funny, but good try anyway.

[Ghazi]

Steve Nash 5th best adjusted +/- over last 2 years.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

BrHornet45 said it and that was funny, but good try anyway.

son I'm not even in BRHornet45's class of funny. God bless son.

[JMarkJohns]

fake sun fans are so quick to dismiss nash, but the only reason the suns are of any relevance to the NBA right now is because of him. wow nice to see how garbage sun fans treat their best player since charles barkely. hopefully nash goes elsewhere and wins a lob.

Here's the difference between you and me... Your fandom defines you whereas I define my fandom. I'm not afraid to voice what everybody else sees and turns a blind eye towards. I'll defend when it's called for and critique when necessary. I don't look at a glass that's half empty, allow my hopes and dreams to blind me into saying it's half full.

Truth of the matter is these Suns' chances at a Title died with their 2007 season. Anyone who says differently is living within a rose-tinted delusion.

Nash, even at his best, was a terrible defender - aside from his ability to draw charges/flop. Why is my Suns fandom called into question by an upstart for stated reality?

I have defended the Suns when it was called for on this site for years. Many times I have been proven right. Many times I have been proven wrong. Point is I have the balls to call it as I see it, regardless of what or whom the analysis is complimentary or critical of.

You need to wake the hell up and realize the owner of the team you root for sold your dreams off long ago. The sooner you realize these Suns are done and not returning, the better off you'll be.

And, while Barkley was without question the most talented and most significant player in Suns history, Kevin Johnson was its best. If you didn't know that, then there's not much hope for you. I like Nash a lot, but KJ would have gone for 30-15 on him nightly.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

JMJ, forgive him, when he went from not knowing what the NBA is to being a "die hard" Nash-D'antoni fan in 2004, it's going to be a little hard for him to accept that the one Suns team he's ever watched is dead and not coming back.

[Gino]

I once met the guy who discovered Tom Cruise.

Does this mean I get to fly an F-14?

[JMarkJohns]

JMJ, forgive him, when he went from not knowing what the NBA is to being a "die hard" Nash-D'antoni fan in 2004, it's going to be a little hard for him to accept that the one Suns team he's ever watched is dead and not coming back.

It's understandable, but not excusable.

[Gino]

JMJ, forgive him, when he went from not knowing what the NBA is to being a "die hard" Nash-D'antoni fan in 2004, it's going to be a little hard for him to accept that the one Suns team he's ever watched is dead and not coming back.

Im not sure this dude is really even a Phoenix fan.

All he does is bash every player on the Suns and claim that they are "dead and not coming back".

The facade is getting old.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I eat dicks and I'm a bandwagon Celtics fan

[Gino]

Here's the difference between you and me... Your fandom defines you whereas I define my fandom. I'm not afraid to voice what everybody else sees and turns a blind eye towards. I'll defend when it's called for and critique when necessary. I don't look at a glass that's half empty, allow my hopes and dreams to blind me into saying it's half full.

Truth of the matter is these Suns' chances at a Title died with their 2007 season. Anyone who says differently is living within a rose-tinted delusion.

Nash, even at his best, was a terrible defender - aside from his ability to draw charges/flop. Why is my Suns fandom called into question by an upstart for stated reality?

I have defended the Suns when it was called for on this site for years. Many times I have been proven right. Many times I have been proven wrong. Point is I have the balls to call it as I see it, regardless of what or whom the analysis is complimentary or critical of.

You need to wake the hell up and realize the owner of the team you root for sold your dreams off long ago. The sooner you realize these Suns are done and not returning, the better off you'll be.

And, while Barkley was without question the most talented and most significant player in Suns history, Kevin Johnson was its best. If you didn't know that, then there's not much hope for you. I like Nash a lot, but KJ would have gone for 30-15 on him nightly.


You cant talk about Rose colored glasses and then claim that Kevin Johnson was "better" than Charles Barkley.

Kevin Johnson was a great player and would be a top 3 PG today and Im sure he was your FAVORITE player, but he was never as dominant as Barkley was in his prime.

Theres no point in even debating this. If you think that Kevin Johnson was honestly "better" than Charles Barkley at winning basketball games, then I cant help you.

[Gino]

Every Suns player EVER sucks dick. I think Duncan is the GOAT. But dont question that I am truly a Suns fan.

:rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I actually agree with Gino here. Suns weren't contenders till Barkley came along. I think what JMJ meant though is Kevin Johnson was a better overall Sun because he played in Phoenix his entire career. KJ > Steve Nash.

Jason Kidd > Steve Nash though. When he was the PG on the Suns they were a top 5 defensive team.

The best all time Sun is Alvan Adams though. 2nd all time in points scored, 1st all time in rebounds, and 3rd all time in assists.

[JMarkJohns]

You cant talk about Rose colored glasses and then claim that Kevin Johnson was "better" than Charles Barkley.

Kevin Johnson was a great player and would be a top 3 PG today and Im sure he was your FAVORITE player, but he was never as dominant as Barkley was in his prime.

Theres no point in even debating this. If you think that Kevin Johnson was honestly "better" than Charles Barkley at winning basketball games, then I cant help you.

Barkley was with the Suns 3+ seasons and shot his way out of town. He's not a long-tenured player, and while he was the most talented and most significant player in the Suns history, as a long-time Suns fan I appreciate long-time players. KJ killed himself for the team. He's by far their best player for a player's career with the Suns. If you couldn't see the implications my initial post made, then I apologize for not being clear. I think it was pretty well stated.

Barkley = most talented/significant rent-a-player in Suns history
Johnson = best career Suns player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

JMJ, I love KJ, but even though he was way before my time, Alvan Adam's Suns career > KJ's Suns career.

[JMarkJohns]

I actually agree with Gino here. Suns weren't contenders till Barkley came along. I think what JMJ meant though is Kevin Johnson was a better overall Sun because he played in Phoenix his entire career. KJ > Steve Nash.

Jason Kidd > Steve Nash though. When he was the PG on the Suns they were a top 5 defensive team.

The best all time Sun is Alvan Adams though. 2nd all time in points scored, 1st all time in rebounds, and 3rd all time in assists.

This is pretty accurate to my line of thinking.

As far as Adams vs. Johnson in career Suns, you're probably right. However, I think that's largely a byproduct of KJ's multiple injuries and cut-short prime. In his few healthy prime years, KJ's 21+ points and 11+ assists would have devastated the Suns record books had he stayed healthy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Agreed, KJ would be a HOFer if not for that Duckworth incident where he tore his hammy and was never the same.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And if not for being a drug addict snitch, Walter "Sweet D" Davis would be right up there with those two.

[lefty]

Agreed, KJ would be a HOFer if not for that Duckworth incident where he tore his hammy and was never the same.

DEespite that, KJ is a HOF in my books

Second best guard in the 90's behind youknowwho, IMO

[ShoogarBear]

I thought the best Sun of all time was Rex Chapman.

[JMarkJohns]

My opinion of KJ is so founded within his first five seasons with the Suns that often it's hard for me to combine the pre-injury, 22-12-type KJ with the post-injuries, 17-8-type KJ. I'm sure Adams was a great talent, but it's hard for me to imagine he was a better player than KJ. It's unfair of me to say KJ is the best career Suns player by far, however. Adams has a hell of a claim, as you pointed out.

[JMarkJohns]

And if not for being a drug addict snitch, Walter "Sweet D" Davis would be right up there with those two.

Possibly. Best scorer, but best player? Maybe, but I don't think so.

[JMarkJohns]

DEespite that, KJ is a HOF in my books

Second best guard in the 90's behind youknowwho, IMO

That's very high praise. I think Stockton, largely because he avoided injury, compiled better stats and had more success within the decade. Payton was also very, very good for the 90s. Without the injuries, I couldn't agree more, but KJ with the injuries as the decade's second-best guard behind Jordan? I'd really have to think that over... and that's from a KJ apologist like myself.

[lefty]

That's very high praise. I think Stockton, largely because he avoided injury, compiled better stats and had more success within the decade. Payton was also very, very good for the 90s. Without the injuries, I couldn't agree more, but KJ with the injuries as the decade's second-best guard behind Jordan? I'd really have to think that over... and that's from a KJ apologist like myself.

Also, KJ is one of the very few selects guards who combined at least 20 ppg and 10 apg during the same season

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My opinion of KJ is so founded within his first five seasons with the Suns that often it's hard for me to combine the pre-injury, 22-12-type KJ with the post-injuries, 17-8-type KJ. I'm sure Adams was a great talent, but it's hard for me to imagine he was a better player than KJ. It's unfair of me to say KJ is the best career Suns player by far, however. Adams has a hell of a claim, as you pointed out.

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, KJ is one of the very few selects guards who combined at least 20 ppg and 10 apg during the same season

He just missed doing such four consecutive seasons by .3 ppg. Over that four-year prime he average 21.2 ppg, 11.1 apg, 1.8 spg on 49.8 FG%.

[lefty]

He just missed doing such four consecutive seasons by .3 ppg. Over that four-year prime he average 21.2 ppg, 11.1 apg, 1.8 spg on 49.8 FG%.
Impressive numbers

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This won't even be a conversation a decade from now when we'll no longer be calling Goran Dragic "White Magic" and we'll be calling Magic Johnson "Black Goran".

[lefty]

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

KJ post-injury; not bad at all; ask Hakeem Olajuwon

http://solecollector.com/shoes/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/12-3-kevinjohnson-dunk.jpg

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KJ post-injury; not bad at all; ask Hakeem Olajuwon

http://solecollector.com/shoes/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/12-3-kevinjohnson-dunk.jpg

I've seen that :lol

[lefty]

Is this vs Real Madrid ? (I think I can see Sabonis)

http://phoenix.fanster.com/suns/files/2009/03/mcd_open_kjohnson_blockjpg.jpeg

[Gino]

Barkley was with the Suns 3+ seasons and shot his way out of town. He's not a long-tenured player, and while he was the most talented and most significant player in the Suns history, as a long-time Suns fan I appreciate long-time players. KJ killed himself for the team. He's by far their best player for a player's career with the Suns. If you couldn't see the implications my initial post made, then I apologize for not being clear. I think it was pretty well stated.

Barkley = most talented/significant rent-a-player in Suns history
Johnson = best career Suns player.

Fair enough.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KJ could really get up. I've met the guy and I'm not sure if he's 6'1" with Timberlands on.

[JMarkJohns]

Impressive numbers

He has a 2.89/1 assist/turnover ratio for his career and over that four-year prime it was 3.16.

KJ's career A/TO ratio is identical to Magic Johnson's, better than Gary Payton's, Tim Hardaway's, Jason Kidd's, Mark Price's and Isiah Thomas'.

Only significant PG of the 80's/90's with a better A/TO ratio was Stockton.

[Gino]

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

LOL..."Pre-injury KJ" was way before your time but you think the best Sun ever was Alvan Adams?

[ShoogarBear]

Alvan Adams basically was a guy who played a lot of years. Other than being Rookie of the Year, he was never ever in anyone's discussion of the top players of the time, and his rookie year was by far his best year. I don't think he ever came within sniffing distance of an All-Star game.

The best comparison to KG was the early, pre-Daly Isaiah Thomas, although KJ was much more athletic (ask Hakeem). Those guys just pretty much did whatever they wanted on offense, they could run the team or score equally well.

Chris Paul is probably the closet thing to them, although I think of Paul as a playmaker who can score than a guy who might go for 40 on you on any given night.

[ShoogarBear]

Damn, somebody beat me to Hakeem.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

LOL..."Pre-injury KJ" was way before your time but you think the best Sun ever was Alvan Adams?

read the post fag bait.

[lefty]

And how can one forget game 3 of the 1993 NBA Finals?

- for a "small" guy, Johnson did an excellent defensive job on Jordan (of course, MJ was pissed off and dropped 55 in the following game)

- he also had 25 pts, 9 assists, 7 rebounds, 2 steals and 1 block

- played 62 out of the 63 minutes :wow

[JustBlaze]

I met Steve Nash's brother



I guess it's cool.......................or not
Yeah, but it's not Steve, so....no.:nope

[lefty]

Yeah, but it's not Steve, so....no.:nope


Ok then


Mark is Steve's younger brother, but trust me, he looks actually 10 years older

[JMarkJohns]

Chris Paul is probably the closet thing to them, although I think of Paul as a playmaker who can score than a guy who might go for 40 on you on any given night.

Agreed, though KJ's mid-range game was better than Paul's, but not significantly so.

Ironically enough, KJ's nickname was "The Playmaker" according to several Suns media guides of those years.

Paul is the only player since KJ where I can say without a doubt he'll end up with 30 points or 15 assists, if not both in any game played.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I thought I was a Kidd apologist but JMJ really knows his shit about KJ :lol

I remember being 11 at the time Kidd was traded and how fuckin pissed I was. It's 75% irritating and 25% funny that they traded Kidd because he "beat his wife and was a bad character" for Stephon Marbury as if Stephon Marbury was some fuckin choir boy.

[Gino]

read the post fag bait.

WTF is your problem?

Pre-pubescent kids like this guy are a waste of time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

WTF is your problem?

Pre-pubescent kids like this guy are a waste of time.

Idk what kind of attitude you want me to give you when you say I'm not a real Suns fan.

It's not like I'm hating on every player and demanding that a 65 win team currently in the finals gets blown up. I'm pissed at a team that just missed the playoffs and is headed nowhere. Forgive me for not being the most optimistic ra-ra fan in the world.

[Gino]

I thought I was a Kidd apologist but JMJ really knows his shit about KJ :lol

I remember being 11 at the time Kidd was traded and how fuckin pissed I was. It's 75% irritating and 25% funny that they traded Kidd because he "beat his wife and was a bad character" for Stephon Marbury as if Stephon Marbury was some fuckin choir boy.

You must have been a 11 because thats not an accurate assessment of what happened.

Kidd was traded after the 2001 finals when Iverson was the leagues biggest star. Marbury had scored 50 in a game against the Suns the year before and the Colangelos were convinced the Philadelphia "model" could work for them.

True, Kidd's domestic problems contributed to his trade, but saying that they wanted to trade Kidd simply because he was a bad character is disingenuous.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You must have been a 11 because thats not an accurate assessment of what happened.

Kidd was traded after the 2001 finals when Iverson was the leagues biggest star. Marbury had scored 50 in a game against the Suns the year before and the Colangelos were convinced the Philadelphia "model" could work for them.

True, Kidd's domestic problems contributed to his trade, but saying that they wanted to trade Kidd simply because he was a bad character is disingenuous.

The trade would not have happened if not for the wife beating incident. My dad did fuckin legal work for Jerry Colangelo at the time of this trade and talked to him about it so please don't tell me what happened.

The Colangelos made horrible trades because of what a player did all the time. They traded Dennis Johnson for Ricky Robey because DJ did cocaine even though half the fuckin NBA did cocaine at the time of the trade.

[lefty]

Damn, how did this thread turn into a KJ - JK topic ?

:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Damn, how did this thread turn into a KJ - JK topic ?

:lmao

because that Steve Nash loving douche with like 50 posts said Steve Nash was the best Sun since Charles Barkley. Any fan who watched KJ pour his heart and soul into the Suns knows that's bullshit.

[Gino]

The trade would not have happened if not for the wife beating incident. My dad did fuckin legal work for Jerry Colangelo at the time of this trade and talked to him about it so please don't tell me what happened.

The Colangelos made horrible trades because of what a player did all the time. They traded Dennis Johnson for Ricky Robey because DJ did cocaine even though half the fuckin NBA did cocaine at the time of the trade.

So because your dad did "legal" work for Jerry Colangelo (family law, tax law, real estate law, bankruptcy law etc. isnt specified), were suppose to believe that your dad had inside knowledge that:

1) He knew the REAL reason that Kidd was traded
2) The Suns thought that Marbury was a better individual than Kidd

Look kid, you've shown you dont have the slightest clue what you are talking about and all you are capable of is spewing profanities about every Phoenix Sun and every poster on this board who disagrees with you.

[Gino]

because that Steve Nash loving douche with like 50 posts said Steve Nash was the best Sun since Charles Barkley. Any fan who watched KJ pour his heart and soul into the Suns knows that's bullshit.

That doesnt even make sense. Kevin Johnson was on the Suns long before Barkley was traded to Phoenix. And to say the Kevin Johnson was better in his twilight years (after Barkley was traded, 96-99) than Nash is pretty stupid. You could say that he was better than Nash in his prime, but that was before Barkley.

So saying Nash is the best Sun since Charles Barkley is saying Nash is better than the likes of Kidd, Marbury, Marion etc. which is a pretty reasonable claim considering the MVPs, playoff wins etc.

Your timeline is all jacked up because you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

[lefty]

because that Steve Nash loving douche with like 50 posts said Steve Nash was the best Sun since Charles Barkley. Any fan who watched KJ pour his heart and soul into the Suns knows that's bullshit.

ANd you can't forget about Paul Westphal

He was spectacular, had great fundamuntals, and was a great competitor

Those who watched the famous 3OT game of the 1976 NBA Finals know what I mean.
He wouldn't give up

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That doesnt even make sense. Kevin Johnson was on the Suns long before Barkley was traded to Phoenix. And to say the Kevin Johnson was better in his twilight years (after Barkley was traded, 96-99) than Nash is pretty stupid. You could say that he was better than Nash in his prime, but that was before Barkley.

So saying Nash is the best Sun since Charles Barkley is saying Nash is better than the likes of Kidd, Marbury, Marion etc. which is a pretty reasonable claim considering the MVPs, playoff wins etc.

Your timeline is all jacked up because you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

Again, not who the best player is, who had the better Suns career. KJ had a way better Suns career than Nash did and KJ's Suns career ended after Barkley's did.

[JMarkJohns]

I thought I was a Kidd apologist but JMJ really knows his shit about KJ :lol

KJ is drastically under appreciated by the mainstream media. I think KJ deserves to be in the HOF. Basketball-reference.com says KJ has a 40% chance based upon statistical equations. The same site says that KJ was a top-50 player in career efficiency. In his prime years, he was often a top-5 player in the NBA in this category based on the sites equation. Also, according to the site, KJ was the 12th best All-Time in offensive rating.

I can't claim to know what this means or even how they got it, but the site has always served me with accurate statistical info and analysis, so I put a decent amount of trust in their conclusions.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I can't claim to know what this means or even how they got it, but the site has always served me with accurate statistical info and analysis, so I put a decent amount of trust in their conclusions.

basketball-reference is tha shit with stats.

[duncan228]

I like basketball-reference a lot too. Anyone got other stat sites they like, other than the usual haunts?

[JMarkJohns]

I like basketball-reference a lot too. Anyone got other stat sites they like, other than the usual haunts?

Hoopsstats.com (http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/home)

Quite possibly the greatest statistical site there is for analysis.

[lefty]

I like basketball-reference a lot too. Anyone got other stat sites they like, other than the usual haunts?
I love basketball-references as well

I don't know other similar ones; I think bb-reference is hard to beat

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

82games.com has some cool features.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809PHO5.HTM

This IMO presents indisputable evidence Shaq was the Suns' best overall player last year.

[Gino]

82games.com has some cool features.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809PHO5.HTM

This IMO presents indisputable evidence Shaq was the Suns' best overall player last year.

According to that site, the Suns would be better if they just flatly cut Shaquille Oneal. Which goes along with my theory that the Suns would be better off without him:

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO15D.HTM

According to that site, when Shaq is on the floor, the number of points scored goes down while the number of points allowed goes up.

The number assists the Suns have drops by five percent when Shaq steps on the floor while the number of assists given up increases by 4%.

The number of turnovers committed goes up while the number of turnovers forced goes down.

The number of blocked shots actually goes down.

The only category that he consistenly helps the Suns in is rebounding.

If you look at Nash's numbers:

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO15D.HTM

The Suns improve in nearly every category (including rebouding :lol) when Nash steps on the floor. The only major negatives would be that the number of assists opponents get increases by 4% and oppenent FG% increases (for which Shaq had no effect).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I guess this explains why they're 2-5 without Shaq last year you fag douche.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Please post the page supporting your argument.

[lefty]

And the last time they made the playoffs, they were 1-4 with Shaq

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO18.HTM#onoff

It says when Shaq is on the court the Suns average 116.5 points per 100 possessions, while when he is off the court they average 112.1 points per 100 possessions.

You fail.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And the last time they made the playoffs, they were 1-4 with Shaq

Yeah like they were so dominant against the Spurs before they traded for Shaq.

[Gino]

I guess this explains why they're 2-5 without Shaq last year you fag douche.

You stupid, stupid kid. Do you know what a randomized, complete block design is? Let me put it this way: You cant draw conclusions that simply because there are so many factors that can contribute to a team winning or losing. Namely opponent, location, players suiting up for the game, days of rest etc. Not only that, theres things called "interaction effects" in which factors can compound when presented with each other. It would literaly be impossible to draw any statistical conclusion based off W-L with and without a player because:

1) No Factors are blocked for (you have no idea what this means)

2) Its not random

3) Its not controlled in any way

You'll have to explain what a fag douche is, kiddo. Dont use words when you dont know what they mean. Also, the Suns were 1-0 against Orlando without Shaq and 0-1 with him. Thus they must be a better team without him :rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, the Suns were 1-0 against Orlando without Shaq and 0-1 with him. Thus they must be a better team without him :rolleyes

Actually dickbreath Dwight Howard got injured in the 2nd quarter of that game w/o Shaq after scoring 16 points in the 1st quarter and that allowed a Suns comeback. Try again.

[Gino]

Actually dickbreath Dwight Howard got injured in the 2nd quarter of that game w/o Shaq after scoring 16 points in the 1st quarter and that allowed a Suns comeback. Try again.

:lol

That whole post went waaaaay over your head, huh?


Well the Suns lost to the Bulls with Shaq and without Shaq. They lost to the Lakers and Hornets with Shaq and lost without him as well. In one of those games against the Lakers, there was no Nash. Thus, you cant simply draw conclusions based off your completely uncontrolled analysis.


But then again, why am I arguing with you? Youre just a stupid kid who doesnt have the slightest clue what he's talking about.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lol

That whole post went waaaaay over your head, huh?


Well the Suns lost to the Bulls with Shaq and without Shaq. They lost to the Lakers and Hornets with Shaq and lost without him as well. In one of those games against the Lakers, there was no Nash. Thus, you cant simply draw conclusions based off your completely uncontrolled analysis.


They beat the lakers w/ Shaq and w/o Nash.
They didn't beat the Lakers w/ Nash and w/o Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But then again, why am I arguing with you? Youre just a stupid kid who doesnt have the slightest clue what he's talking about.

And you're a faggot that think he knows everything even though most people on this board think you're a gay bandwagon fan douche. Make a poll about who is a better poster and see who gets more votes queer fuck.

[Gino]

They beat the lakers w/ Shaq and w/o Nash.
They didn't beat the Lakers w/ Nash and w/o Shaq.

:lol

You just dont get it.

In one of the losses without Shaq against the Hornets, Nash didnt play as well either.

The point is that you cannot make conclusions this way because theres too much "noise".

[Gino]

And you're a faggot that think he knows everything even though most people on this board think you're a gay bandwagon fan douche. Make a poll about who is a better poster and see who gets more votes queer fuck.

Um, no. Im not gay and I dont think I know everything. Im pretty confident Im much more knowledgable than you, though. Ive tried explaining a few things but you just come back with childish insults instead of learning.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Um, no. Im not gay and I dont think I know everything. Im pretty confident Im much more knowledgable than you, though. Ive tried explaining a few things but you just come back with childish insults instead of learning.

Explaining bull shit that's not true. I'm still waiting for you to post that page about how the Suns' scoring goes up when Shaq is out of the game.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Im not gay

Your avatar says otherwise.

[Gino]

Explaining bull shit that's not true. I'm still waiting for you to post that page about how the Suns' scoring goes up when Shaq is out of the game.

I thought I already did???

No matter, here it is again (from your own favorite site):

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO16D.HTM

When Shaq was in (for 802 minutes) the Suns scored 1819 points. 2.26 points a minute.

When was OUT (for 3128 minutes) the Suns scored 7162 points. 2.28 points a minute.

[Gino]

Now with Nash:

On the floor: 2.39 points per minute.

Off the floor: 2.03 points per minute.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I thought I already did???

No matter, here it is again (from your own favorite site):

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO16D.HTM

When Shaq was in (for 802 minutes) the Suns scored 1819 points. 2.26 points a minute.

When was OUT (for 3128 minutes) the Suns scored 7162 points. 2.28 points a minute.

That was 2007-2008.

[Gino]

Your avatar says otherwise.

Says the dude with the purple avatar.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Says the dude with the purple avatar.

My avatar is about Purple Drank. Purple Drank isn't gay. It might be disgusting but it's not gay.

[Gino]

That was 2007-2008.

My mistake. :toast

2008-2009 shows a net on-court off-court for Shaq of zero.

Net Points per 100 Possessions .5 .5 .0

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO18.HTM#pstats

[Gino]

Nash has net increase of +.9

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO1.HTM#pstats

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My mistake. :toast

2008-2009 shows a net on-court off-court for Shaq of zero.

Net Points per 100 Possessions .5 .5 .0

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO18.HTM#pstats

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO18.HTM#onoff

It says their points per 100 possessions goes from 116.5 to 112.1 once he leaves the court. It also says the net points per 100 possessions is +1.

Nash's differentials are better and that's only cause of the way the coach designs the team. When I say dumb Nash I mean dump Nash and change the offense.

[Gino]

In order for these numbers to have any real meaning, they would have to be "blocked" for teammates on the floor with them at the time.

[Thundaluva]

In order for these numbers to have any real meaning, they would have to be "blocked" for teammates on the floor with them at the time.

Then it's not fair depending on what players compliment Shaq/Nash better.

There's no right way to do this. I'm also not opposed to Shaq being traded, I just don't like how people think trading Shaq will turn the Suns into a contender.

[Gino]

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO18.HTM#onoff

It says their points per 100 possessions goes from 116.5 to 112.1 once he leaves the court. It also says the net points per 100 possessions is +1.

Nash's differentials are better and that's only cause of the way the coach designs the team. When I say dumb Nash I mean dump Nash and change the offense.

Thats not what Im seeing:

Stat ON Court OFF Court Net
Minutes 2252 1697 57%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 116.5 112.1 .4
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 114.0 110.6 .4
Net Points per 100 Possessions .5 .5 .0

Regardless, I claimed that their offense got worse when he stepped on the court but that isnt true (I was looking at the previous year) so you were right there.

However, those stats say the defense gets worse when hes on the court and theres a net increase of zero.

But like I said, its not blocked for teammates, so its not a very good statistic.

I messed with this a few years back when I was in grad school. Tried to determine which factors had the greatest effect on wins/losses. However, the problem is that its never random and you cant block for any factors and all you get is noise.

I know that Shaq takes away from his teammates because Ive seen it.
I know that Shaq doesnt rotate on defense because Ive seen it. I know Shaq is much less effective in the fourth quarter and against lesser teams because Ive seen it.

[Gino]

My view is you can't blame Shaq for not rotating on defense when Nash makes no effort to keep the player he's guarding out of the paint. If Shaq was the one guy on the team who didn't play defense, you bet I'd bitch about it.

Is this DuncanOwnKobe?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is this DuncanOwnKobe?

delete that shit I made a troll and my internet browser fucked something up :lol

[pauls931]

I have no problem with shaq, nash, and or amare staying but if a good offer comes up, any can go as far as I'm concerned. But if they all stay, I'll be fine with that too.