How did ORL lose that game?

[DrHouse]

The Lakers had no business winning the game. I'm still baffled as to how the Magic managed to lose this one.

[dolacheck]

Cause Stern wanted them to lose.......

[DPG21920]

The goaltend helped. But other than that a good win. But it could be 1-1 if the proper call was made on a such a blatant infraction. Lakers showed some grit and gutted out a win.

[timvp]

Pau Gasol was traded for nothing.

[resistanze]

The Lakers had no business winning the game. I'm still baffled as to how the Magic managed to lose this one.

See WCF 2002 game 6.

[TampaDude]

The Lakers had no business winning the game. I'm still baffled as to how the Magic managed to lose this one.

Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...
Missed FTs, dude...missed FTs...

[Ghazi]

Howard didn't have a stamp on the game IMO.

[DrHouse]

C'mon don't blame the refs. That wasn't the reason the Magic lost and you know it, besides they still shot more F/T's than the Lakers.

[DPG21920]

C'mon don't blame the refs. That wasn't the reason the Magic lost and you know it, besides they still shot more F/T's than the Lakers.

Did they miss a goal tending call that would have won the game for the magic?

[cobbler]

The goaltend helped. But other than that a good win. But it could be 1-1 if the proper call was made on a such a blatant infraction. Lakers showed some grit and gutted out a win.

Are you talking about Howards hand through the hoop on Gasols dunk?

[JamStone]

Devastating loss for the Magic. They won't be able to recover from this loss.

[cobbler]

did they miss a goal tending call that would have won the game for the magic?

yes.

[TampaDude]

C'mon don't blame the refs. That wasn't the reason the Magic lost and you know it, besides they still shot more F/T's than the Lakers.

But they missed too many to win...I fucking told you all that those missed FTs would cost the Magic the game!!!!! :lol

[Tacker]

David Stern somehow pulled it out from his bag of tricks...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Orlando wanted to lose, plain and simple. This is why JJ "I'm a big pile of duke shit that eats cockmeat sandwhiches" Redick is in the game. You don't deserve to win if Redbrick is playing that much.

[Reeko_Htown]

:ihitJJ REDICK

[DPG21920]

Are you talking about Howards hand through the hoop on Gasols dunk?

Gasol's hand through the net and grabbing the rim with the last second shot that would have no matter what ended the game.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The refs didn't win this game for LA......enough of that.

[quickerblade]

howard could not dominate, he has kwame brown hands

[Ghazi]

20 turnovers

[j-money24]

I'll take it.

[sribb43]

Redick got drilled on the 3 in the corner with about 11 sec left

[redzero]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/redzero/hedoitson.png

[DrHouse]

Howard had a clear goal tend that was even worse than Pau's. The two cancel each other out.

Again the refs had nothing to do with this loss, that I know for sure. Both teams can point to pivotal calls that didn't go their way.

[LakerHater]

20 turnovers

Exactly!!!

It really helped that Alston played more mins than Nelson!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Redick got drilled on the 3 in the corner with about 11 sec left

Redick sucks fat dick and he wasn't fouled at all one of the few satisfying parts of LA winning will be watching that chocking cum dumpster lose.

[Allanon]

Gasol's hand through the net and grabbing the rim with the last second shot that would have no matter what ended the game.

Cobbler's talking about the Dwight Howard goaltend earlier in the game you must have missed that part of the game. But Dwight's goaltend pretty much cancels out Pau's goaltend.

Both Dwight and Pau had pretty much the same play in this game and the refs didn't call either one. At least they were consistently bad. :lol

[sammy]

Refs!

[JamStone]

Gasol's hand through the net and grabbing the rim with the last second shot that would have no matter what ended the game.

Technically not had the referees not also missed that Dwight Howard goaltend earlier in the game and so the Lakers would have been up by 2 points at that point right? You can play the what-if / bad or missed call game for a lot of plays.

[DPG21920]

Technically not had the referees not also missed that Dwight Howard goaltend earlier in the game and so the Lakers would have been up by 2 points at that point right? You can play the what-if / bad or missed call game for a lot of plays.

True, I did not say it was the refs fault overall, but there is a huge difference in blowing a call in the first half and the last second. In the first half, both teams have a chance to recover, at the end of the game there is no chance or very little going into overtime.

[Medvedenko]

Players hand touch the rim all of the time on made or missed shots....now players hands going through the hoop for a block, not that often.

[Budkin]

Pau Gasol was traded for nothing.

Amen... that answers all questions about the Lakers.

[iggypop123]

Did they miss a goal tending call that would have won the game for the magic?

you mean like the one where howard put his hand through the hoop to block gasol and that didnt get called?

[dav4463]

How about when Turkoglu got raped and it was a no-call and then LA got the ball bouncing off Turk's leg. He was tripped, blocked, fell down....and it's a no-call? Yet Kobe can fall down on his own and get two free throws. Kobe can extend his elbow and clear space for a shot any time. Turk extends with barely any contact and gets called for an offensive foul

The key is : all of these calls were down the stretch at crunchtime....important calls...calls that decide games and they all went LA's way....but I expect nothing less from Stern's NBA.

[21_Blessings]

Pau Gasol was traded for nothing.

He was traded for a solid starting center, Darell Arthur (good young player), cap space (2010 incoming), 2 more picks and the ability to have two top 5 picks because no way the grizzlies lose many games wtih Pau there the last two seasons.

So no, he wasn't. That trade was perfect if you want to rebuild a team. There there are countless trades that are worse.

[BadOdor]

How about when Turkoglu got raped and it was a no-call and then LA got the ball bouncing off Turk's leg. He was tripped, blocked, fell down....and it's a no-call? Yet Kobe can fall down on his own and get two free throws. Kobe can extend his elbow and clear space for a shot any time. Turk extends with barely any contact and gets called for an offensive foul

The key is : all of these calls were down the stretch at crunchtime....important calls...calls that decide games and they all went LA's way....but I expect nothing less from Stern's NBA.

How's the fishing now days, chump?

[Ghazi]

Don't forget my boy Javaris Crittenton, although he plays on the Wizards now!

[DrHouse]

Hedo shouldn't complain he uses his off arm to shove players away on nearly every play. Dude would foul out in 5 minutes if the refs bothered to call that.

And Gasol's supposed "goaltend" had no effect on Lee's shot going in. Lee missed by a mile. You can clearly see that in the replay. DPG is reaching and grasping for straws again.

Give it a rest with this ref conspiracy BS.

[quickerblade]

Rashard lewis broke shaqs final scoring record hahahaa

[Showtime24 LAKERS]

The goaltend helped. But other than that a good win. But it could be 1-1 if the proper call was made on a such a blatant infraction. Lakers showed some grit and gutted out a win.

Dwight got away with his hand through the basket for a clear goaltend. perhaps Lee wasn't going to make It anyways.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What LA traded for Gasol was almost identical to what Phoenix traded to Seattle/OKC for cash consideration.......don't get mad at LA for making the trade, get mad at your team for not making the trade.

[DPG21920]

Hedo shouldn't complain he uses his off arm to shove players away on nearly every play. Dude would foul out in 5 minutes if the refs bothered to call that.

And Gasol's supposed "goaltend" had no effect on Lee's shot going in. Lee missed by a mile. You can clearly see that in the replay. DPG is reaching and grasping for straws again.

Give it a rest with this ref conspiracy BS.

Please quote where I said there was a conspiracy or that it was the refs fault? Otherwise, shhh. I said it was a missed call that would have ended the game. If they would have called Dwight's goaltend, the game still would have been played for much longer.

[John Ameachi]

God quicker blade your avatar is giving me a woody

[carrao45]

Gasol's hand through the net and grabbing the rim with the last second shot that would have no matter what ended the game.

The rule is "if u touch the rim or net in a way that affects the way the ball bounces, then it is a goaltend." gasol touching the rim had no effect of the outcome of the shot and you know it.
PLUS you are forgetting Howard stuck his hand THROUGH THE RIM to goaltend Gasol's shot.

Magic got away with a BLATANT goaltend
Lakers did not even goaltend.

End Of Discussion

[resistanze]

Kobe got some Wade treatment down the stretch. Doesn't matter to me. Like I've said before, the Magic winning game 2 determines if this is a long series or short series for the Lakers.

[J.T.]

ORL lost that game the same way 21_Blessings ends up fucking his right hand every night. No game when it counted. Thread over. Go fuck yourselves.

[DPG21920]

Dwight got away with his hand through the basket for a clear goaltend. perhaps Lee wasn't going to make It anyways.

Read my other posts. If they would have called Dwight's, would the game have ended right there? If they would have called Pau's, would the game have ended? There is the difference.

2 wrongs do not make a right and who cares if Lee was not going to make it, that is not the rule. But like I said before, that was not the "reason" the Magic lost. Just a missed call in a crucial moment that would have resulted in a Magic win.

[TampaDude]

Hedo shouldn't complain he uses his off arm to shove players away on nearly every play. Dude would foul out in 5 minutes if the refs bothered to call that.

And Gasol's supposed "goaltend" had no effect on Lee's shot going in. Lee missed by a mile. You can clearly see that in the replay. DPG is reaching and grasping for straws again.

Give it a rest with this ref conspiracy BS.

True dat...yes, Gasol touched the rim, but did not make the shot miss. Good no-call. Can you imagine if the refs had called a goaltend on that shot? They would be burning cars in LA right now. :lol

[redzero]

God quicker blade your avatar is giving me a woody

Where do these people come from?

[DrHouse]

They never call that in the first place so your entire argument DPG is useless. Lee missed by a mile and Gasol had nothing to do with that. You're arguing about something that is never ever called in a real game.

[TheMACHINE]

Did they miss a goal tending call that would have won the game for the magic?

the one in the first quarter against howard? You're right they definately missed that

[underdawg]

Hedo shouldn't complain he uses his off arm to shove players away on nearly every play. Dude would foul out in 5 minutes if the refs bothered to call that.

And Gasol's supposed "goaltend" had no effect on Lee's shot going in. Lee missed by a mile. You can clearly see that in the replay. DPG is reaching and grasping for straws again.

Give it a rest with this ref conspiracy BS.

Hedo's off arm was being used to defend the contact by Ariza - refs saw that and that's why they didn't call a foul. Fish's contact during screens on the other hand continues to be a non-call and somtimes an offensive foul - that's kind of BS. A player should be allowed to set a screen without the defensive player running through it.

[John Ameachi]

Where do these people come from?

You should know where I come from....I'm John Amaechi, some troll made me intentionally spell my name wrong....anyways, I'm a gay center for the Utah Jazz. Why do you think I like quickerblade's avatar so much.

[carrao45]

Read my other posts. If they would have called Dwight's, would the game have ended right there? If they would have called Pau's, would the game have ended? There is the difference.

2 wrongs do not make a right and who cares if Lee was not going to make it, that is not the rule. But like I said before, that was not the "reason" the Magic lost. Just a missed call in a crucial moment that would have resulted in a Magic win.


The rule is "if u touch the rim or net in a way that affects the way the ball bounces, then it is a goaltend." gasol touching the rim had no effect of the outcome of the shot and you know it.
PLUS you are forgetting Howard stuck his hand THROUGH THE RIM to goaltend Gasol's shot.

Magic got away with a BLATANT goaltend
Lakers did not even goaltend.

End Of Discussion

[DPG21920]

Did they miss a goal tending call that would have won the game for the magic?


the one in the first quarter against howard? You're right they definately missed that

A call they should have made AGAINST Howard would have resulted in the Magic winning? I know what you were trying to say, but read before you post.

[HarlemHeat37]

the 1st reason they lost was Courtney Lee's choking..yes, he's a rookie, but those were 2 huge shots..the 1st one was understandable, even though he should have made that..the potential game winner was horrible..that was maybe the worst defense I've ever seen by a championship team, but they got away with it..Lee has to make that..

the 2nd reason was reffing, any unbiased observer should have seen this..yes, it's annoying when people complain about refs, but it was pretty obvious..the key plays were the 3 CONSECUTIVE plays down the stretch..Turkoglu gets called for an offensive foul, even though that play happens on almost every possession..followed by Kobe receiving a phantom call on Pietrus, where Dwight cleanly blocked him..then Kobe slips on the inbound, and receives free throws when they call it on Turkoglu..

the Gasol goaltend was also very clear, but it didn't look like it affected the shot..I highly doubt LA doesn't get that call if they are the team on offense though..

this was Orlando's game..they lost it due to a combination of choking from guys like Lee and Redick, and from bad officiating down the stretch in the 4th quarter..

[DPG21920]

Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket.
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.
d. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched any part of the backboard above ring level, whether the ball is considered on its upward or downward flight.
e. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched the backboard below the ring level and while the ball is on its upward flight.
f. Trap the ball against the face of the backboard. (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)
g. Touch any live ball from within the playing area that is on its downward flight with an opportunity to touch the basket ring. This is considered to be a "field goal attempt" or trying for a goal.
h. Touch the ball at any time with a hand which is through the basket ring.
i. Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce.
PENALTY: If the violation is at the opponent's basket, the offended team is awarded two points, if the attempt is from the two point zone and three points if it is from the three point zone. The crediting of the score and subsequent procedure is the same as if the awarded score has resulted from the ball having gone through the basket, except that the official shall hand the ball to a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. If the violation is at a team's own basket, no points can be scored and the ball is awarded to the offended team at the free throw line extended on either sideline. If there is a violation by both teams, play shall be resumed by a jump ball between any two opponents at the center circle.

[DPG21920]

Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket.
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.
d. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched any part of the backboard above ring level, whether the ball is considered on its upward or downward flight.
e. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched the backboard below the ring level and while the ball is on its upward flight.
f. Trap the ball against the face of the backboard. (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)
g. Touch any live ball from within the playing area that is on its downward flight with an opportunity to touch the basket ring. This is considered to be a "field goal attempt" or trying for a goal.
h. Touch the ball at any time with a hand which is through the basket ring.
i. Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce.
PENALTY: If the violation is at the opponent's basket, the offended team is awarded two points, if the attempt is from the two point zone and three points if it is from the three point zone. The crediting of the score and subsequent procedure is the same as if the awarded score has resulted from the ball having gone through the basket, except that the official shall hand the ball to a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. If the violation is at a team's own basket, no points can be scored and the ball is awarded to the offended team at the free throw line extended on either sideline. If there is a violation by both teams, play shall be resumed by a jump ball between any two opponents at the center circle.

[lefty]

The Lakers had no business winning the game. I'm still baffled as to how the Magic managed to lose this one.
Your Sig !!!!!!!!!!!!! :lmao

[DPG21920]

If the refs thought that the ball had absolutely no chance of going in, then good call.

[DrHouse]

I don't see any mention from ya'll about the missed calls that went against LAL. Why is that? Kobe got called for the ball bouncing off him when the replay clearly showed it did not bounce off him. That call changed the game too.

The fact is both teams had blown calls go against them in the game.

[iggypop123]

If the refs thought that the ball had absolutely no chance of going in, then good call.

so you are saying the lakers got screwed cause the gasol play was inside the basket when howard blocked through the net.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't see any mention from ya'll about the missed calls that went against LAL. Why is that? Kobe got called for the ball bouncing off him when the replay clearly showed it did not bounce off him. That call changed the game too.

The fact is both teams had blown calls go against them in the game.

the game shouldn't have went that far..

the 3 calls I mentioned were all one after the other, and they were down the stretch in a close game which would have clearly given Orlando momentum..

I'm not mad, LA is going to win this series regardless..this is the NBA though, it's expected..

[TheMACHINE]

Read my other posts. If they would have called Dwight's, would the game have ended right there? If they would have called Pau's, would the game have ended? There is the difference.

2 wrongs do not make a right and who cares if Lee was not going to make it, that is not the rule. But like I said before, that was not the "reason" the Magic lost. Just a missed call in a crucial moment that would have resulted in a Magic win.

"hypocrisy" at its finist.

[TheMACHINE]

the game shouldn't have went that far..

the 3 calls I mentioned were all one after the other, and they were down the stretch in a close game which would have clearly given Orlando momentum..

I'm not mad, LA is going to win this series regardless..this is the NBA though, it's expected..

and u bitch about calls every single game the Lakers win...as expected

[HarlemHeat37]

and u bitch about calls every single game the Lakers win...as expected

I do?..

[DPG21920]

do you are saying the lakers got screwed cause the gasol play was inside the basket when howard blocked through the net.

What? First you say a call that should have gone against Howard would have won the game for the Magic, then this. Read before you post.

[iggypop123]

What? First you say a call that should have gone against Howard would have won the game for the Magic, then this. Read before you post.

you quoted me before i edited

[Showtime24 LAKERS]

I don't see any mention from ya'll about the missed calls that went against LAL. Why is that? Kobe got called for the ball bouncing off him when the replay clearly showed it did not bounce off him. That call changed the game too.

The fact is both teams had blown calls go against them in the game.

can you say 3 seconds....like my god diwght is in the paint more then anyone...7 seconds at one time in the game

[DPG21920]

"hypocrisy" at its finist.

Please explain. Or do you not understand the definition. I am a hypocrite because I say calls at the end of games matter much more because the time teams have to recover is less and that if a ref misses a call at the beginning of a game he should miss it again at the end because of that?

[TheMACHINE]

I do?..

yes you do.

[DPG21920]

you quoted me before i edited

Read then post. Not post then edit.

[KSeal]

There were bad calls on both sides of the ball. A horrible missed GT on Dwight where he put his hand THROUGH THE BASKET and there was no call and then later the ball was called off Kobe when clearly it was off Turk, then they could have called a GT on Gasol but it had absolutely no affect on the shot itself. The Lakers pulled out a huge win and the Magic couldn't get the job done.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

god these arguments DPG vs. Laker fans are always really annoying.

[TheMACHINE]

Please explain. Or do you not understand the definition. I am a hypocrite because I say calls at the end of games matter much more because the time teams have to recover is less and that if a ref misses a call at the beginning of a game he should miss it again at the end because of that?

ur a hypocrit cuz your bitching about a call that had the same outcome for both teams...2 points NOT on the board.

What makes is worst..one was WAY more obvious than the other.

[TheMACHINE]

god these arguments DPG vs. Laker fans are always really annoying.

cuz DPG90210 whines like a little bitch after every game

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

God, you're a poopy head!!!
No, you're a poopy head!!!
my dad is bigger than your dad!!!
No, my dad can beat your dad up!!!

[JoeTait75]

The three-week pity party for the Orlando Magic is really tiresome. Dewey Howard gets away with plenty, game-in, game-out. So does Turk with his push-offs every time he goes into the lane. But all anyone wants to do is cry about how bad they have it from the officials. It's really fucking old.

[quickerblade]

2-0 motherfuckers.

[BadOdor]

cuz DPG90210 whines like a little bitch after every game

Go read the "Manu doesn't believe in god thread". Will really revelal the extent of DP(double- penetration?) whining.

[DrHouse]

If there is one constant after a Laker win it's DPG crying like a bitch and then taking up 20 pages arguing with Laker fans that inevitably ends with him posting pictures of little girls

[DPG21920]

Are calls at the end of games more important than at the beginning? That is all I am saying. Laker fans get upset if you say a ref missed a call in a crucial moment. Most people are not saying the refs lost the game, just pointing out the call.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[TheMACHINE]

The three-week pity party for the Orlando Magic is really tiresome. Dewey Howard gets away with plenty, game-in, game-out. So does Turk with his push-offs every time he goes into the lane. But all anyone wants to do is cry about how bad they have it from the officials. It's really fucking old.

dude..u r so right..its about time the called the offensive foul on Hedo for pushing off.

[BadOdor]

manu is being insensetive, boohoooo

[DPG21920]

God, you're a poopy head!!!
No, you're a poopy head!!!
my dad is bigger than your dad!!!
No, my dad can beat your dad up!!!

You have arguments as well that are annoying, everyone does. SD argument are annoying, DrHouse arguments are annoying, KBP arguments are annoying. All arguments are annoying.

No one is saying what you are saying. For the most part they are basketball arguments with the exception of a few times when people rip each other for fun.

Quit crying. You arguments about Nash and Amare with your own fans are really annoying as well. Round and Round.

[TheMACHINE]

Are calls at the end of games more important than at the beginning? That is all I am saying. Laker fans get upset if you say a ref missed a call in a crucial moment. Most people are not saying the refs lost the game, just pointing out the call.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

they're all the same to me...2 points is 2 points. U fuck us in the first, i fuck u in the 4th....at the end of it...both got fucked.

[KSeal]

2-0 lead, Magic will have immense trouble recovering from such a tough loss. Lakers will come out in game 3 looking for the kill, Magic better be ready or this series is over.

Somewhat off topic, the Lakers should resign Lamar, he is coming through huge and Ariza ain't doing shit. I love Ariza but right now it seems Lamar is way more important to this current Lakers squad. I hope Lamar stays.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You have arguments as well that are annoying, everyone does. SD argument are annoying, DrHouse arguments are annoying, KBP arguments are annoying. All arguments are annoying.

No one is saying what you are saying. For the most part they are basketball arguments with the exception of a few times when people rip each other for fun.

Quit crying. You arguments about Nash and Amare with your own fans are really annoying as well. Round and Round.

They don't last nearly as long as yours do. It's been like two pages and the arguments gone nowhere.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And I'm not crying btw, I think most people hear would agree with what I said.

[JoeTait75]

dude..u r so right..its about time the called the offensive foul on Hedo for pushing off.

It's not so much that they get away with stuff. Every good team with star players does. But there's this perception that the Magic are always getting hosed, and they're not. They just whine about it more than anyone and people get suckered in.

[DPG21920]

If there is one constant after a Laker win it's DPG crying like a bitch and then taking up 20 pages arguing with Laker fans that inevitably ends with him posting pictures of little girls

Do I need to bump the threads you start. I do not bitch about the lakers, I hate their fans and point out when they are being dumb.

I do not hate the Lakers, just their fans. As does everyone. I always actually compliment the Lakers and their team, I can show you many posts where this is true, especially when I am talking basketball with other Laker fans.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Are calls at the end of games more important than at the beginning? That is all I am saying. Laker fans get upset if you say a ref missed a call in a crucial moment. Most people are not saying the refs lost the game, just pointing out the call.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

If that's the case then do we really need multiple pages of discussion on this (me being one of the culprits in this charade too)? I find it funny that no one on the Magic has mentioned it in the postgame. Furthermore, no media member has asked a question about it. It's a non-issue, just drop it already.

[TampaDude]

Lakers = sweep = 2009 NBA Champions

[TheMACHINE]

Do I need to bump the threads you start. I do not bitch about the lakers, I hate their fans and point out when they are being dumb.

I do not hate the Lakers, just their fans. As does everyone. I always actually compliment the Lakers and their team, I can show you many posts where this is true, especially when I am talking basketball with other Laker fans.

fine..ill be fair with you. You mentioned that Magic got fucked over a goalending call...we mention we got fcked too...you just always have to bring it up another notch. Never satisfied with "yah thats tru..both teams got bad goaltending calls". You just never want to end the freaking arguement.

[DPG21920]

All arguments go no where eventually. Rarely does someone say: "oh yea, you are right, my bad. You have changed my mind."

Like I am the biggest Laker basher in the world or something :lol.

There is like 2 threads that went on for a long time. It is not like I am spamming the board or something starting threads bitching and arguing. Only in very select threads that were meant to start arguments do I enter and go on and on for the fun of it.

Like with Allanon. We went back and forth, but we have had many good convo's and those types of arguments are meant to push each others buttons.

[TheMACHINE]

All arguments go no where eventually. Rarely does someone say: "oh yea, you are right, my bad. You have changed my mind."

Like I am the biggest Laker basher in the world or something :lol.

There is like 2 threads that went on for a long time. It is not like I am spamming the board or something starting threads bitching and arguing. Only in very select threads that were meant to start arguments do I enter and go on and on for the fun of it.

Like with Allanon. We went back and forth, but we have had many good convo's and those types of arguments are meant to push each others buttons.

dude..ur talking bout the smallest freaking non call...people outside this thread arnt even talking bout a "goaltending" call. Its not like it was like the "foul" that Fisher did on barry...thats a big deal.

[timvp]

:lol @ Laker Fan still insisting that the Gasol trade was a good one. Even Kobe called it a gift. Accept the gift, win a championship with Gasol and celebrate.

[DPG21920]

fine..ill be fair with you. You mentioned that Magic got fucked over a goalending call...we mention we got fcked too...you just always have to bring it up another notch. Never satisfied with "yah thats tru..both teams got bad goaltending calls". You just never want to end the freaking arguement.

Why are you acting like I am the only one who says anything about calls at the end of games? It is a very common discussion in basketball. Many threads throughout the year are started on this very subject.

I am not typing back and forth with myself and I am not saying anything that is outlandish. All I said was that it was a bad call at the end of the game, then I posted the rule and said if the refs thought it had no chance of going in, then good call.

But Laker fans are acting like I am bitching about calls all the time, which is not true. Going back and forth with Laker fans in very select threads is not bitching about calls.

[iggypop123]

it was a gift just like the kg gift. just like the billups gift

[TheMACHINE]

:lol @ Laker Fan still insisting that the Gasol trade was a good one. Even Kobe called it a gift. Accept the gift, win a championship with Gasol and celebrate.

i'll take it.

[timvp]

it was a gift just like the kg gift. just like the billups gift

Give it up.

Jerry West salary dumped an All-Star bigman to his favorite team.

Let it go.

Stop whining.

Accept facts.

Win the championship.

Celebrate.

Try to do it again.

[DPG21920]

dude..ur talking bout the smallest freaking non call...people outside this thread arnt even talking bout a "goaltending" call. Its not like it was like the "foul" that Fisher did on barry...thats a big deal.

That was my whole argument. That Laker fans keep bringing up the Howard goaltend in the 1st half as the same thing.

It is not, because one was at the end of the game. Why would Fish's foul be a bigger deal than any other foul throughout the game by that logic? That is all I am saying.

People make it seem like I am blaming the refs for the loss, when I clearly said that is not the case. People make a big deal because it is me and I give dumb laker fans a hard time when they act dumb. Which they do often.

There are very few good laker fans on the board and many people would agree with that.

[iggypop123]

Give it up.

Jerry West salary dumped an All-Star bigman to his favorite team.

Let it go.

Stop whining.

Accept facts.

Win the championship.

Celebrate.

Try to do it again.

i actually said it was a gift. i just mentioned other gifts that followed.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I love Jerry...and Stern

[HarlemHeat37]

from my many years of being an NBA fan(sadly), I've learned to argue with Laker fans in a certain way..

for example..

I named 3 huge calls that went in their favor..CONSECUTIVELY..down the stretch in the 4th quarter..none of them being debatable..I named them..their argument in reply is naming some 1 or 2 QUESTIONABLE calls that aren't obvious at all, and happened in the 1st or 2nd quarter..they'll also make general statements like "Howard gets away with stuff"..

[TheMACHINE]

from my many years of being an NBA fan(sadly), I've learned to argue with Laker fans in a certain way..

for example..

I named 3 huge calls that went in their favor..CONSECUTIVELY..down the stretch in the 4th quarter..none of them being debatable..I named them..their argument in reply is naming some 1 or 2 QUESTIONABLE calls that aren't obvious at all, and happened in the 1st or 2nd quarter..they'll also make general statements like "Howard gets away with stuff"..

how come u never argue in our favor...or does the Lakers never get screwed by refs?

[DPG21920]

I have argued in the Lakers favor many times. Their fans are a different story. DoK is making a mountain out of a mole hill. I only argue with Laker fans at length in very select threads and I never start threads provoking anyone.

[HarlemHeat37]

how come u never argue in our favor...or does the Lakers never get screwed by refs?

why would I argue in your favor? I'm not a Lakers fan, obviously..

I'm not just "hating" on the Lakers..my argument was legit, I didn't say anything outrageous..

[TheMACHINE]

why would I argue in your favor? I'm not a Lakers fan, obviously..

ahhh you're an Orlando, Denver, Houston, Utah fan. My bad.

[dbtbandit67]

I have argued in the Lakers favor many times. Their fans are a different story. DoK is making a mountain out of a mole hill. I only argue with Laker fans at length in very select threads and I never start threads provoking anyone.

I totally agree. Laker fans need to calm down and be respectful with their disagreements. It's not hard if you try.

[TheMACHINE]

I totally agree. Laker fans need to calm down and be respectful with their disagreements. It's not hard if you try.

haha..dude...you must be new here.

[BUMP]

:lol at delusional LakerFan not thinking that Jerry "I will always be a Laker" West didn't giftwrap them a championship

[timvp]

i actually said it was a gift. i just mentioned other gifts that followed.

Those were legit trades. Gasol was a gift.

[quickerblade]

The live and die via the 3 point shot is not going to work for fucks sake, jesus, Im all for the lakers, but why is the Magic so fucken stupid and sticking with the same plan they lost with in game 1..not game 2

[iggypop123]

Those were legit trades. Gasol was a gift.

no way those are legit.

[playaslk]

:lol at delusional LakerFan not thinking that Jerry "I will always be a Laker" West didn't giftwrap them a championship

you know, i dont remember from a year ago, but were you bitching about Boston getting a gift by getting KG and Ray?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I dunno, maybe because it got them to the Finals? :lol

They'll get to Orlando, the refs will be on their side, and they'll get the next couple at home.

[iggypop123]

cause lewis lived with it for a while but other players didnt get the memo

[quickerblade]

I dunno, maybe because it got them to the Finals? :lol

They'll get to Orlando, the refs will be on their side, and they'll get the next couple at home.
that shit works against mo williams and delonte west, not the tall ass lakers, fair enough it got them here, but its obviously not working, its failing

[timvp]

no way those are legit.

Have you watched Al Jefferson play basketball?

Stop trying to pretend.

Win the championship.

Celebrate.

Thank Jerry West.

Try to repeat.

[HarlemHeat37]

I can't believe somebody's argument of the Gasol trade was comparing it to the Celtics having to give up a guy that could be an all-star as soon as last year, and the Nuggets giving up Allen Iverson..

I don't have a problem with the actual Gasol trade, it was obviously a salary dump..LA gave up a good amount when you consider that it's a salary dump..but there's no way any other team would have received a gift like that, and Jerry West clearly had a part in it..not a coincidence that it was soon after Kobe was crying about his teammates..

[Def Rowe]

why would I argue in your favor? I'm not a Lakers fan, obviously..

I'm not just "hating" on the Lakers..my argument was legit, I didn't say anything outrageous..

You have a rep for being a Laker hater from the thousands of trash talking posts you've made about them on Real GM. You seem mellower on this forum.

[JamStone]

The KG trade was a gift too. Not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift. It got the Celtics a title and the Wolves stayed in the lottery. Boston didn't even give up that #5 pick for KG cuz they already traded it for Allen. KG was absolutely a gift.

[BUMP]

you know, i dont remember from a year ago, but were you bitching about Boston getting a gift by getting KG and Ray?

Al Jefferson.

Nice try

[IronMexican]

It's a gift I'll gladly take.

[timvp]

The KG trade was a gift too. Not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift. It got the Celtics a title and the Wolves stayed in the lottery. Boston didn't even give up that #5 pick for KG cuz they already traded it for Allen. KG was absolutely a gift.

Al Jefferson.

In two years, that trade will look like a steal for the T'Wolves.

[BUMP]

Anybody who would take KG at this stage in his career over big Al is a dumbass

[Def Rowe]

Al Jefferson.

In two years, that trade will look like a steal for the T'Wolves.

In two years Marc Gasol will be putting up fantastic numbers for the Grizz.

[JamStone]

Al Jefferson is a great player. He wouldn't have helped Boston win a title if you replace KG with him last year. McHale being involved makes it just as suspect. Again not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift nonetheless.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Al Jefferson is already superior to KG offensively.

[IronMexican]

Al Jefferson.

In two years, that trade will look like a steal for the T'Wolves.

Celtics won a title. They wont regret it.

[playaslk]

I bet you many teams would salvage their "future" to win a title.

Isnt that what teams routinely do in baseball?

[timvp]

In two years Marc Gasol will be putting up fantastic numbers for the Grizz.:lol Good one.

That's like Laker Fan saying the Grizzlies would make the playoffs this year.


Al Jefferson is a great player. He wouldn't have helped Boston win a title if you replace KG with him last year. McHale being involved makes it just as suspect. Again not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift nonetheless.

It was a classic now for later trade. Both teams will come out looking good. Celtics got their championship. The T'Wolves have a player they can build around for the next decade.

Both teams would do that trade again.

[JamStone]

Anybody who would take KG at this stage in his career over big Al is a dumbass


Celtics wouldn't and they'd be justified with that decision. Statistically, you'd take Jefferson over Duncan as well but it's more than that that makes guys like Duncan and KG more valuable than Jefferson.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lol Good one.

That's like Laker Fan saying the Grizzlies would make the playoffs this year.

Or when they were talking about all the potential Javaris Crittenton had :lmao

[quickerblade]

Forget KG, Orlando is down 0-2

[Ghazi]

KG is way better than Jefferson.

[HarlemHeat37]

Al Jefferson is a great player. He wouldn't have helped Boston win a title if you replace KG with him last year. McHale being involved makes it just as suspect. Again not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift nonetheless.

Obviously not..but Boston doesn't get KG without getting Allen..if they don't get Allen, they'll be rebuilding and will keep Jefferson..Minnesota was looking to get a player for the future no matter what..they weren't going after a player that would help them now(they got one anyways)..Boston clearly had to give up a future piece that they got from sucking for a few years..



another interesting thing is that if Pietrus doesn't foul out on the phantom call vs. Kobe, he would be in Lee's position for the last 2 plays..Pietrus is a better finisher, has more length, and jumps higher than Lee..it's interesting how shit works out..

[JamStone]

:lol Good one.

That's like Laker Fan saying the Grizzlies would make the playoffs this year.



It was a classic now for later trade. Both teams will come out looking good. Celtics got their championship. The T'Wolves have a player they can build around for the next decade.

Both teams would do that trade again.


So if Marc Gasol becomes a 20/10 guy, does that make the Pao trade not a gift? Of course not.

Yes the Wolves appeared to get more value than Memphis but it was still a gift. I can't see how you'd think it wasn't just because of Jefferson.

[Def Rowe]

:lol Good one.

That's like Laker Fan saying the Grizzlies would make the playoffs this year.

I'm being serious hooker.

[timvp]

So if Marc Gasol becomes a 20/10 guy, does that make the Pao trade not a gift? Of course not.Uh, Gasol was a second round pick. Jefferson was already a budding All-Star. Huge difference.


I can't see how you'd think it wasn't just because of Jefferson.Huh?

If the Lakers would have given up a Jefferson (or even a Bynum) for Gasol, it wouldn't have been a gift.

[DrHouse]

Ah typical Spur fan reaction to a Laker win.

1.) Blame the refs
2.) Blame Jerry West and bring up the Gasol trade
3.) Cry about the NBA David Stern conspiracy

You guys never disappoint :toast

[BUMP]

So if Marc Gasol becomes a 20/10 guy, does that make the Pao trade not a gift? Of course not.

Yes the Wolves appeared to get more value than Memphis but it was still a gift. I can't see how you'd think it wasn't just because of Jefferson.

KG trade wasnt a gift because it benefited both teams and KG's time in Minnesota was done.

Marc Gasol is a decent player but he's no Al Jefferson.

Crittenton? :lmao

Kwame Brown? :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

OK 3 role players doesn't = rising star

Yeah LA gave them Marc Gasol, Javaris Crittenton and two late round picks, but chances are none of those four will have anywhere near the impact of Al Jefferson.

I still think there was nothing wrong with the trade, but Boston's trade was way less lopsided.

[Indazone]

Stan Van Gundy

Jeff Van Gundy

Stan Van Gundy

Jeff Van Gundy

Things that you find on a refrigerator?

[DPG21920]

OK 3 role players doesn't = rising star

Yeah LA gave them Marc Gasol, Javaris Crittenton and two late round picks, but chances are none of those four will have anywhere near the impact of Al Jefferson.

I still think there was nothing wrong with the trade, but Boston's trade was way less lopsided.

Your arguments are getting really old and annoying. Just let it go. :lol

[JamStone]

Uh, Gasol was a second round pick. Jefferson was already a budding All-Star. Huge difference.

Manu Ginobili was a second round pick. What's your point?

It's all in what the talent evaluators of a team think they see.

If the Spurs traded Tim Duncan for Zach Randolph and Marcus Camby, and a first round pick, on paper, it's a good one for the Spurs because Zach puts up slightly better numbers and is younger. But we all know it wouldn't be a good trade for the Spurs. It would be a gift to the Clippers even though the Spurs get a good, younger player in return.

Al Jefferson puts up good numbers. He's been on lottery teams four out of his five seasons. He appears to have a good future. So does Marc Gasol. Al Jefferson hasn't shown anything in his career that would lead you to believe he can help a team win. Individually, great. He's always on losing teams, and mostly really, really bad losing teams at that. So, no, it doesn't change the fact that Kevin McHale still made a gift trade to Boston.





Huh?

If the Lakers would have given up a Jefferson (or even a Bynum) for Gasol, it wouldn't have been a gift.

Marc Gasol very well could end up being a better player than Andrew Bynum. It's all about perception. Back from 1999-2003, 99% of the league's GMs would have taken Corey Maggette over Manu Ginobili. Wasn't Marc Gasol also a Euro league MVP? It's all about perception.

I'm not saying Pau Gasol wasn't a gift. I'm just saying KG was too. Al Jefferson is a good young prospect who puts up good numbers on bad teams. Marc Gasol was less of a known prospect because he hadn't played in the NBA yet. Still a very good prospect who some probably thought would have a chance to be a quality player in the league given the bloodlines and the fact that other Spaniards had done well in the league. That doesn't mean his value was so overwhelming less to allow you to draw such a huge distinction between the two trades.

[JamStone]

KG trade wasnt a gift because it benefited both teams and KG's time in Minnesota was done.

Marc Gasol is a decent player but he's no Al Jefferson.



It hasn't benefited Minnesota yet. They still lost over 50 games, still a lottery team. And in a few years, the Pau trade may end up being a benefit for Memphis as well.


At any rate, I didn't suggest Marc Gasol was Al Jefferson. Not my argument at all. My argument is that Al Jefferson being a very good player doesn't make the KG trade not a gift. The trade instantly got the Celtics a title. The Timberwolves were still one of the worst teams in the league. It's a lopsided trade as of now. And, again, if you argue that Al Jefferson will be good for the future of the Timberwolves, the same can be potentially argued for Marc Gasol and Darrell Arthur (from the Crittenton trade) for Memphis.

[DPG21920]

This is why arguments last so long. People have to keep explaining themselves over and over and things get so ridiculously misconstrued on ST. Especially with the "mob mentality" that goes on sometimes.

Jams argument is valid. Yes Al Jefferson is the safer bet and better as of right now, but it could change. You can debate how likely that is or that just because the Wolves have not won a title that it was bad for the wolves.

They were not winning a title with KG and they would be a very bad team if you replaced Al with KG now.

[21_Blessings]

Al Jefferson is a great player. He wouldn't have helped Boston win a title if you replace KG with him last year. McHale being involved makes it just as suspect. Again not as much of a gift as Gasol but still a gift nonetheless.

If the Grizzlies sign a top tier player with the cap space created by the Gasol trade it won't even be close. Top tier player + starting cetner + Darrell Arthur + 2 other 1st round prospects > Al Jefferson and Sebastion fucking Telfair.

By the way, Al Jefferson is a horrible defensive player. He hasn't proven he's not the next Z-Bo unless he can recover from his ACL injury and actually lead the Wolves somewhere other than the lotteyr

[Indazone]

Al Jefferson will eventually iron out the defensive aspects of his game. I expect hims to be an All-Star someday. His game is modeled after Hakeem's after all :D

[Capt Bringdown]

Pau Gasol was traded for nothing.

Exactly. What team couldn't benefit from the addition of an all-star to their lineup FOR FREE?

[BUMP]

It hasn't benefited Minnesota yet. They still lost over 50 games, still a lottery team. And in a few years, the Pau trade may end up being a benefit for Memphis as well.


At any rate, I didn't suggest Marc Gasol was Al Jefferson. Not my argument at all. My argument is that Al Jefferson being a very good player doesn't make the KG trade not a gift. The trade instantly got the Celtics a title. The Timberwolves were still one of the worst teams in the league. It's a lopsided trade as of now. And, again, if you argue that Al Jefferson will be good for the future of the Timberwolves, the same can be potentially argued for Marc Gasol and Darrell Arthur (from the Crittenton trade) for Memphis.

It wasn't just that one trade but the Allen trade as well. The trade wasn't a gift, just because a trade works out doesn't exactly mean its a gift. A gift is really just a lopsided trade that doesn't make sense for one team. Minnesota freed cap space and got a very young special talent in Al Jefferson.

I'm not really sure how Memphis benefited at all from the Pau Gasol trade. They gave up a draft pick for a draft pick, Crittenton and Brown aren't even there anymore, and even if Marc and Darrell (by some small chance) reach their full potential, they wont be nearly as good as Pau was.

[timvp]

Manu Ginobili was a second round pick. What's your point?

It's all in what the talent evaluators of a team think they see.No talent evaluator would compare Al Jefferson and Marc Gasol.


If the Spurs traded Tim Duncan for Zach Randolph and Marcus Camby, and a first round pick, on paper, it's a good one for the Spurs because Zach puts up slightly better numbers and is younger. But we all know it wouldn't be a good trade for the Spurs. It would be a gift to the Clippers even though the Spurs get a good, younger player in return.The point is Al Jefferson has franchise player type of skill.

Zach Randolph doesn't and the Spurs aren't in a rebuilding mode. That examples doesn't align with the main motivations of the KG for Jefferson trade.


Al Jefferson puts up good numbers. He's been on lottery teams four out of his five seasons.Kevin Garnett was stuck in the lottery, too. If you are going to use the lottery against a young Jefferson, you obviously have to use the lottery against a KG supposedly in his prime.


He appears to have a good future. So does Marc Gasol.:lol @ comparing Jefferson to Pau's fatter brother.


Al Jefferson hasn't shown anything in his career that would lead you to believe he can help a team win. Individually, great. He's always on losing teams, and mostly really, really bad losing teams at that. So, no, it doesn't change the fact that Kevin McHale still made a gift trade to Boston.This point is pretty much negated by the fact that KG was in the lottery himself. Prior to the trade, KG hadn't proved much at all. He had a ton of surrounding talent in his career and it took Cassell at his prime and good Sprewell for him to make any sort of noise in the playoffs.

Playing the loser card when Garnett is on the other side of the equation doesn't make much sense at all.

But yeah, if you want to equate Marc Gasol and Al Jefferson, this argument can't go much further. That's almost as ludicrous as Laker Fan originally claiming the trade was fair because J-Critt was supposedly the next Kobe.

[Def Rowe]

No one is saying Marc Gasol is better than Al Jefferson. They're saying KG is a better forward than Pao Gasol. Which is true.

[Nahtanoj]

20 turnovers

[spurscenter]

Refs

[Ghazi]

timvp's statement is basically true: The Lakers gave up nothing for Pau Gasol.

They already had a 55 win team assembled and gave up no major parts of their core for Gasol. Throwing in Bynum or Odom would've made it less lopsided.

That Marc Gasol had a good year was unexpected.

But the trade has in retrospect provided Memphis with a few young good players and salary cap relief.

The only question has to be whether there was another team that could have made a better offer.

I highly doubt the Lakers' offer was the best for Gasol, but I'm not sure.

But oh well, it might get them a title this year, but that's it. Mavs winnin this shit next year.

[InK]

No talent evaluator would compare Al Jefferson and Marc Gasol.

But yeah, if you want to equate Marc Gasol and Al Jefferson, this argument can't go much further. That's almost as ludicrous as Laker Fan originally claiming the trade was fair because J-Critt was supposedly the next Kobe.

He isn't comparing them as players, just as gifts. And he is right- Kg > Al and Pau> Marc. Its obvious which trade was more loopsided of the two, but both are still loopsided non the less.

[ginobili's bald spot]

Refs

spurscenter crying like a bitch again.

[Ice009]

Every time I think about that trade I laugh.:lol

So do I. not ;).

[Ice009]

How about when Turkoglu got raped and it was a no-call and then LA got the ball bouncing off Turk's leg. He was tripped, blocked, fell down....and it's a no-call? Yet Kobe can fall down on his own and get two free throws. Kobe can extend his elbow and clear space for a shot any time. Turk extends with barely any contact and gets called for an offensive foul

The key is : all of these calls were down the stretch at crunchtime....important calls...calls that decide games and they all went LA's way....but I expect nothing less from Stern's NBA.

Yep I agree with all those. When they showed the replay even Van Gundy said was there even any contact on Kobe's two free throw foul?

Hedo was also fouled I don't see how all they could call is out of bounds off of Hedo.

[TJastal]

All I saw of this game was a few minutes of the 2nd quarter before having to go to work and it was really all I needed to see to know the magic were probably going to lose the game.

First off, somebody please tell me how Derek Fisher gets away with so much bullshit year after year after year? If the refs actually called every foul this little turd commits he would easily foul out of most games by the start of the 4th quarter.

In the short little time I watched the Magic did have some momentum going their way, they had just gotten Bynum to sit with foul trouble and Howard was about to serve up Lamar Odom with some dunkcake when who should come to the rescue for the flakers? Oh, of course, the refs. Fisher slapped down hard on Howard's arm (and don't try to dispute this, it was obvious) stopping Howard from dunking in Odom's face and this is somehow ruled a jump ball? W T F?

It's these types of plays that make people realize there is something fishy about the NBA. (no pun intended.)

Howard even stopped right in the middle of the play to stare at the refs in utter frustration that there wasn't a foul called on Fisher. They weren't even going to call a jump-ball until he gave them that staredown either. Proving they knew damn well they had just screwed him. They were just gonna act like nothing happened. Nope, Fisher didn't just rake Howard's arm, didn't happen.

Afterward the momentum of the game defenitely shifted in favor of the lakers, and they went on to win the game, unsurprisingly.

Bottom line? Lakers don't really need any help to beat other teams, but when they get help like this from the officials its almost a lock they will win.

[JamStone]

No talent evaluator would compare Al Jefferson and Marc Gasol.

Didn't say that. What I am saying is that Gasol being a second round pick doesn't mean he can't become a good or even great player that in the future ends up benefiting the Memphis Grizzlies like you assume Jefferson benefits the Timberwolves. I'm not saying Marc Gasol is as good or will be as good as Jefferson, only that he could end up being a benefit in a similar way so the trade won't, in fact, have ended up as a Pau Gasol for "nothing" trade.



The point is Al Jefferson has franchise player type of skill.

That's an opinion. Currently, Al Jefferson is a 20/10 guy on lottery teams. Great individual player. Empty stats unless they actually help his team wins. Similar to the shine Elton Brand had early on in his career as a consistent 20/10 type guy who appeared to be a "franchise" player but whose shine has since faded because those stats, those skills don't help his teams win.



Zach Randolph doesn't and the Spurs aren't in a rebuilding mode. That examples doesn't align with the main motivations of the KG for Jefferson trade.

Zach actually has similar skill to Al Jefferson with the exception of blocking shots. Neither is particularly good defensively, Zach probably worse. But, Zach has consistent low post ability you could build an offense around. He's had multiple 20/10 seasons. You don't "perceive" him as a "franchise" type player because his off the court issues cloud your perception of him and also his basketball IQ is poor. But there's not nearly as much difference between Zach and Al as you might think. I'd take Al Jefferson over Zach any day, but it's not because of the "franchise" skill you mention. It's because of the off the court stuff, the poor basketball IQ.



Kevin Garnett was stuck in the lottery, too. If you are going to use the lottery against a young Jefferson, you obviously have to use the lottery against a KG supposedly in his prime.

True, KG was stuck in the lottery, but these arguments often need hypothetical conjecture to be made. Would Al Jefferson on the Celtics instead of KG gotten the Celtics a title last year if they made all the other changes? I don't believe so. If KG stayed on the Wolves and they made all the other changes, would the Timberwolves still have won only 20 some odd games? I don't believe so. Al Jefferson is a great young player that puts up very good numbers. His impact on the game hasn't proven to be anything more than putting up very good individual numbers.



:lol @ comparing Jefferson to Pau's fatter brother.

Not comparing them as how good they are as current players. Comparing them as the main pieces in return for a "gift" trade and how both could be good players in the future. You misinterpret what I've saying.



This point is pretty much negated by the fact that KG was in the lottery himself. Prior to the trade, KG hadn't proved much at all. He had a ton of surrounding talent in his career and it took Cassell at his prime and good Sprewell for him to make any sort of noise in the playoffs.

Agreed to a certain extent. He hadn't proven he could help a team win a title or go deep into the playoffs by himself. But, he did prove early on in his career that he could help a team be good enough to make it to the playoffs. He led his team in his second year in the NBA at the ripe age of 20 to the playoffs, and as the best player on the team 8 consecutive times to the playoffs. Al Jefferson has played five years in the league. He's been to the playoffs once and that was his rookie year when he wasn't playing much, and he wasn't the player that led the team to the playoffs. There are distinctions to be made. Right now, as good as Al Jefferson is and could be, he's putting up empty stats on bad teams. Until those 20/10 stats actually help his team win, it's naive to suggest that Al Jefferson's team failures even amount to KG's team failures early on in his career.



Playing the loser card when Garnett is on the other side of the equation doesn't make much sense at all.

That's blatant bias against KG. KG helped his teams win enough games to make it to the playoffs. Jefferson just finished his fifth season on a 24 win team. KG's fifth season, he led the Timberwolves to a 50 win season. If you can't draw the distinction there, there's something wrong with you.



But yeah, if you want to equate Marc Gasol and Al Jefferson, this argument can't go much further. That's almost as ludicrous as Laker Fan originally claiming the trade was fair because J-Critt was supposedly the next Kobe.

Not as current players. And, you refuse to understand that. But, fine. If you can't understand what I was saying, you're right, there isn't a need to go any further.

[Jacko]

Why are fans of a franchise that purposefully tanked a season to get the #1 pick complaining about bad trades?

[pauls931]

It´s simple, the better team is winning. Orlando is almost there, but LA has more experience and now has two big time scoring options in Kobe and Gasol as well as the only team with more talent than Orlando or Boston.

I´m glad Orlando had a shot, but this series is over. They needed game 2. I hope they put up a fight and hold home. The did show some serious improvement from game 1, but nelson still looks rusty bricking two freethrows. I think next year will be their year unless Cleveland pulls off a monster trade which unfortunately is very likely.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

just keep hoping kobe splits his knee open

[Jacko]

just keep hoping kobe splits his knee open

You don't even have to wish for injury on Ginobili anymore. It just happens.

[KSeal]

Why are fans of a franchise that purposefully tanked a season to get the #1 pick complaining about bad trades?

They need to find some way, any way to discredit the Lakers for winning. Either it's the refs, or injuries, or a trade, or conspiracy or fluke shots etc, etc, etc.

[dirk4mvp]

I let out a what the fuck when Magic said Gasol is the most skilled bigman in the nba last night during the postgame.

[picnroll]

.... and the ability to have two top 5 picks because no way the grizzlies lose many games wtih Pau there the last two seasons.

So no, he wasn't. That trade was perfect if you want to rebuild a team. There there are countless trades that are worse.
Got to LMAO at a guy justifying a trade because it will allow a team to suck so bad they'll qualify for at least two top picks. I have a great trade for you, Gasol and Kobe for Spurs' crap. LA should be able to suck enough to get four or five top 5 picks. :smokin

[21_Blessings]

Got to LMAO at a guy justifying a trade because it will allow a team to suck so bad they'll qualify for at least two top picks. I have a great trade for you, Gasol and Kobe for Spurs' crap. LA should be able to suck enough to get four or five top 5 picks. :smokin

I like how you decided to not quote the rest of my post where I said, solid starting, Darral Arthur, two other first rounders and enough cap space to sign a 2010 free agent.

Context is funny.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You know, it'd be a lot more productive if everyone got mad at their team for not getting Pau Gasol rather than hating on LA for doing so. I highly doubt Jerry West had a big enough impact where Memphis knowingly rejected a better offer and accepted that trade. Fact of the matter is the other teams weren't being opportunistic at all. It's not like no one knew Memphis was looking to trade Gasol, he had been on the trade block since the 2007 season. If there was really a team that offered something way better then they would have made noticable noise about the trade.

[DPG21920]

You know, it'd be a lot more productive if everyone got mad at their team for not getting Pau Gasol rather than hating on LA for doing so. I highly doubt Jerry West had a big enough impact where Memphis knowingly rejected a better offer and accepted that trade. Fact of the matter is the other teams weren't being opportunistic at all. It's not like no one knew Memphis was looking to trade Gasol, he had been on the trade block since the 2007 season. If there was really a team that offered something way better then they would have made noticable noise about the trade.

That is untrue. It is widely known that Gasol was not on the market for anyone else. That is why everyone is so peeved and not blaming their own FO.

It is a moot point now and the league just has to deal with it for the next few years. But the fact that the Grizz said they made a mistake with the trade and that the other teams were not made aware of the availability is what has people shaking their heads.

[mytespurs]

[QUOTE=DPG21920;3449528]That is untrue. It is widely known that Gasol was not on the market for anyone else. That is why everyone is so peeved and not blaming their own FO.

I recall reading that the Bulls had a shot to get him but their FO was either too slow or indecisive about acting upon this trade. I tend to think that the reason some may view this as collusion is because Jerry West worked with the Grizzlies at one point and he was a consultant with them for a few months after he officially resigned.


It is a moot point now and the league just has to deal with it for the next few years. But the fact that the Grizz said they made a mistake with the trade and that the other teams were not made aware of the availability is what has people shaking their heads.

It should be a moot point in general. It happened; great deal for the Lakers-now it's time to get over it and move on. :hat

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That is untrue. It is widely known that Gasol was not on the market for anyone else. That is why everyone is so peeved and not blaming their own FO.

It is a moot point now and the league just has to deal with it for the next few years. But the fact that the Grizz said they made a mistake with the trade and that the other teams were not made aware of the availability is what has people shaking their heads.

All I know is, in 2007 there was a market for Pau Gasol. The Suns almost had a trade worked out to get him at the 2007 trade deadline where they gave away a pretty similar package to that of LA.

Yeah, it was still major highway robbery and LA has Memphis to thank for their championship, but I'm not sure if he was "unavailable" to other teams. His name popped up multiple times in ESPN trade rumor articles before the trade.

[picnroll]

I like how you decided to not quote the rest of my post where I said, solid starting, Darral Arthur, two other first rounders and enough cap space to sign a 2010 free agent.

Context is funny.
Somehow I'm gonna go with Popovich's assessment of the trade as a total ripoff of ther Grizz of unprecendent proportions over your GMing insight.

[TheManFromAcme]

I let out a what the fuck when Magic said Gasol is the most skilled bigman in the nba last night during the postgame.

You realize that Mr. Spicolli is a Laker fan don't you? :toast
Cool Av nonetheless.

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

There were a lot of bad calls both ways. Like when they gave the ball back to the magic saying it went off Kobe's knee, when it didn't even touched him. Let's stop this bs. Truth of the matter is the magic had five minutes like the Lakers to win the game and they didn't.

[LakerHater]

There were a lot of bad calls both ways. Like when they gave the ball back to the magic saying it went off Kobe's knee, when it didn't even touched him. Let's stop this bs. Truth of the matter is the magic had five minutes like the Lakers to win the game and they didn't.

Oh really, watch the ball change direction!!!
The ball might have not hit his leg but it hit something, TV didnt show this angle!!

http://i41.tinypic.com/antpt.jpg

Refs were aslo biased on those 3 straight calls for Kobe when they were clean!!!!

[Red Hawk #21]

the 1st reason they lost was Courtney Lee's choking..yes, he's a rookie, but those were 2 huge shots..the 1st one was understandable, even though he should have made that..the potential game winner was horrible..that was maybe the worst defense I've ever seen by a championship team, but they got away with it..Lee has to make that..

the 2nd reason was reffing, any unbiased observer should have seen this..yes, it's annoying when people complain about refs, but it was pretty obvious..the key plays were the 3 CONSECUTIVE plays down the stretch..Turkoglu gets called for an offensive foul, even though that play happens on almost every possession..followed by Kobe receiving a phantom call on Pietrus, where Dwight cleanly blocked him..then Kobe slips on the inbound, and receives free throws when they call it on Turkoglu..

the Gasol goaltend was also very clear, but it didn't look like it affected the shot..I highly doubt LA doesn't get that call if they are the team on offense though..

this was Orlando's game..they lost it due to a combination of choking from guys like Lee and Redick, and from bad officiating down the stretch in the 4th quarter..

This post is exactly how I feel, Magic could not overcome the refs and their role players choking. Fuck Courtney lee for missing that wide open look at the end of the 4th, you just can't get a better look than that in a last second scenario in the Nba finals. And fuck the refs for screwing the Magic in overtime. And fuck J.J.Reddick tambien.

[crc21209]

Magic win the next 3 at home and close it out in L.A in Game 6. Oh yeah...I said it.

[DarrinS]

Kobe got the benefit of some very questionable calls late in the game. I thought I was watching DWade vs. Dallas.

[Gino]

The Lakers had no business winning the game. I'm still baffled as to how the Magic managed to lose this one.

This whole thread is a joke. The announcers spent the entire game glossing the Lakers and then the Lakers were down by two with under a minute to go.

Orlando played like complete shit. They had how many turnovers in the first quarter?

It just doesnt matter because they dont have the talent. The dont even have anyone who's good at creating their own shot.

LA should be embarrassed that it was even that close. But as we've seen with Houston, the Lakers are mentally weak and soft.