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View Full Version : 4 reasons why Obama's health care plan is no bargain (from CNN of all places)



Aggie Hoopsfan
06-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I know George Gervin's Fro and some others called me out about the details not being out there yesterday, so here you go. And it's from CNN, whose been an Obama cheerleader for a good year now.

When CNN's raising concerns, you know it's bad. Flame away though, I'm sure you Obamaniacs will trash this because it criticizes the One.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/11/news/economy/obama_health_plan_no_bargain.fortune/index.htm


America is finally getting a detailed look at the sweeping, long-awaited health-care reform platform championed by President Obama. This week the Democrats have unveiled their two primary proposals -- a 700-plus page bill in the Senate and the outline of the forthcoming version in the House that presents essentially the same blueprint for change.

The crucial question about Obama's agenda has always been whether it really will slow the disastrous rise in health-care spending, or actually increase it while hiding the real costs of the new system. On analyzing the bills, the conclusion is inescapable: Obama promises Americans what appears to be a bargain by heavily subsidizing their premiums. But the only way to pay for what's really outrageously expensive coverage will be huge tax increases, especially on the same middle class that's being wooed as the chief beneficiary of reform.
0:00 /4:21Curing public health care

The plans contain four proposals that will substantially weaken the ability of the market, already limited by burdensome regulation, to restrain medical spending.

First, they will impose rich, standard packages of benefits, with low deductibles, for all Americans. Those policies, typically containing everything from in-vitro fertilization to mental health benefits, are usually far more expensive than anything most people would pay for with their own money.

Second, the plans would impose on a federal level the doctrine of community rating, in which all customers have to be offered the same rates, regardless of their health risks. Community rating forces young people to pay far more than their actual cost, a main reason for today's 46 million uninsured, while it subsidizes older patients.

Third, Obama would ban consumers from buying private insurance across state lines, perpetuating the price differences in today's fragmented market, instead of allowing all Americans to shop anywhere for the best deals.

Fourth, both plans propose what's known as a "public option," or a Medicare-style plan that would compete with the private offerings. The previous three proposals would make the private plans extremely expensive. With the same subsidies, the Medicare-style plan could put them out of business.

Before we get into the specifics of each problem, it's important to note that Obama's health-care plan is not included in his 2010 budget. The administration pledges that his health-care plan won't expand the deficit because it will be entirely paid for by tax increases. But even if the deficit stays the same, spending and taxes will be far from the same. By most estimates, Obama's plan will cost more than $200 billion a year by 2019. All told, government outlays as a share of GDP are projected to reach 26% by that point, up five percentage points from when Obama took office.

Now, let's examine the four ways in which the new proposals are likely to increase costs:

1.) The two bills would require states to establish insurance "exchanges" that would offer a variety of plans. The rub is that the federal government would impose minimum standards on all of those plans, from New York to Wyoming to Hawaii, that are often more stringent and expensive than the existing laws require.

A case in point is the first requirement, the minimum benefits package. Today, many states require a menu of costly coverage, while others impose only light requirements. Colorado, for example, mandates hair transplants, rehab services, and hearing aids, while Illinois requires none of them. The Senate bill gives a preliminary list that includes mental health and prescription drug benefits, and substance abuse programs. That's the minimum menu that all states would have to offer.

A special panel of experts would add to that list -- and you can bet that the additions would be substantial and costly. As a result, it would be far more difficult for consumers to purchase basic, stripped down, low-cost policies for catastrophic care that are bargains in states like Alabama or Indiana.

2.) In its purest form, community rating requires that insurers charge the same premiums for all their patients, regardless of their age, obesity or any lifestyle differences. New York, New Jersey and a half-dozen other states have stringent community rating laws. In most states, insurers can charge their customers according to their actual costs, so a 62-year-old smoker would pay, say, $10,000 for a policy versus $800 for a 20-year-old marathoner.

The senate plan would impose a strict, narrow band on all premiums nationwide: Insurers could never charge more than twice as much in premiums for their most expensive patient versus their least costly. So the 62-year-old's policy might fall to $5,000, and the 20-year-old's would go to $2,500. The senior would get a big subsidy, and the youngster would pay far more than his real cost.

3.) The state "exchanges" would exist in 50 totally separate markets. Even with the harmonization of community rating and benefits packages, the differences in prices across states would remain large.

Allowing Americans to buy insurance anywhere, at the lowest prices, would create nationwide competition that would drive down costs everywhere. But the Obama plan will not allow a true national market. It's remarkable that Obama would endorse a plan that perpetuates big price differences. His solution for Medicare is to do just the opposite by flattening costs in the most expensive regions to match the lowest levels anywhere in the U.S.

4.) The so-called public option is now included in both the Senate and House bills, and is strongly endorsed by Obama. Under the public option, the exchanges would offer a plan resembling Medicare for more than 100 million working Americans. Today, most of them are covered by their employers' plans. But the Democrats' proposals contain a "pay or play" provision that would allow companies, in effect, to drop their coverage and substitute a payroll tax.

Because their health care costs are growing so rapidly, it's likely that most companies would dump their plans. "That's what will happen," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, which champions free-market solutions to health care. "Employees could then go to the exchanges and get subsidized insurance."

The problem here is that the public option would compete directly with the private plans. Both would be heavily subsidized, with Americans making up to $110,000 eligible for assistance under the Senate proposal. It's likely that the Medicare-like option will drive out private insurers, since the government plan has several advantages. The plans impose public-utility-like restrictions on the insurers, capping their profits and transferring premiums from the insurers with the younger, healthier patients to those who serve an older, sicker population. Those restrictions will hardly make them nimble competitors. At the same time, the imposition of costly benefits packages and community rating will raise their costs.

That the government enjoys an edge in purchasing doesn't mean that the overall costs will fall. It's precisely the opposite. The public plan will be so heavily subsidized that Americans will tend to over-consume expensive medical services just the way they do now under regular Medicare. Only this time, the number of patients will be almost three times larger.

The demand for everything from knee surgery to mental health counseling will soar. But the government will keep a lid on prices, so Americans, for the first time, will be faced with rationing. The hospitals and physicians simply won't be able to satisfy the unhinged demand for the services that look like a bargain.

The lines will grow. And so will the spending, and the taxes. And that's what Obama isn't telling you.

JoeChalupa
06-11-2009, 08:57 AM
That DAMN liberal media!! :cuss

JoeChalupa
06-11-2009, 08:57 AM
I have NO problem with criticism of Obama.
This is America and when it comes to speaking out against this administration.....YES WE CAN!!!

Winehole23
06-11-2009, 09:00 AM
Another sop to big insurance. Also, Obama will probably tax the benefits, McCain's much maligned approach

LnGrrrR
06-11-2009, 09:05 AM
I thnk Obama is pissed about the economic crisis, and he wants to make his mark as a President. He's chosen the health-care program to do it. Even if he has to indebt us even more, there's no way that's coming off the agenda.

DarrinS
06-11-2009, 09:12 AM
AMA Opposes Government-Sponsored Insurance Plan (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html)




WASHINGTON — As the health care debate heats up, the American Medical Association is letting Congress know that it will oppose creation of a government-sponsored insurance plan, which President Obama and many other Democrats see as an essential element of legislation to remake the health care system.


The opposition, which comes as Mr. Obama prepares to address the powerful doctors’ group on Monday in Chicago, could be a major hurdle for advocates of a public insurance plan. The A.M.A., with about 250,000 members, is America’s largest physician organization.

While committed to the goal of affordable health insurance for all, the association had said in a general statement of principles that health services should be “provided through private markets, as they are currently.” It is now reacting, for the first time, to specific legislative proposals being drafted by Congress.

In the presidential campaign last year and in a letter to Congress last week, Mr. Obama called for a new “public health insurance option,” which he said would compete with private insurers and keep them honest.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California said Wednesday that she supported that goal. “A bill will not come out of the House without a public option,” she said Wednesday on MSNBC.

But in comments submitted to the Senate Finance Committee, the American Medical Association said: “The A.M.A. does not believe that creating a public health insurance option for non-disabled individuals under age 65 is the best way to expand health insurance coverage and lower costs. The introduction of a new public plan threatens to restrict patient choice by driving out private insurers, which currently provide coverage for nearly 70 percent of Americans.”

If private insurers are pushed out of the market, the group said, “the corresponding surge in public plan participation would likely lead to an explosion of costs that would need to be absorbed by taxpayers.”

While not the political behemoth it once was, the association probably has more influence than any other group in the health care industry. Lawmakers seek its opinion and support whenever possible. It has repeatedly persuaded Congress to cancel or postpone cuts in Medicare payments to doctors, though it has not secured a “permanent fix.”

If the doctors are too aggressive in fighting the public plan, they risk alienating Democrats whose support they need for legislation to increase their Medicare fees.

The group has historically had a strong lobbying operation, supplemented by generous campaign donations. Since the 2000 election cycle, its political action committee has contributed $9.8 million to Congressional candidates, according to data from the Federal Election Commission and the Center for Responsive Politics. Republicans got more than Democrats in the four election cycles before 2008, when 56 percent went to Democrats.

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, said that in his address to the group next week, Mr. Obama would “outline the case for health care reform and make clear why we can’t afford to wait another year, or another administration, to bring down costs that are crushing families, businesses and government.”

Mr. Gibbs did not say whether Mr. Obama would discuss a public insurance plan, the most contentious issue in the debate.

The A.M.A., an umbrella group for 180 medical societies, does not speak for all doctors. One group, Physicians for a National Health Program, supports a single-payer system of insurance, in which a single public agency would pay for health services, but most care would still be delivered by private doctors and hospitals. In recent years, some doctors have become so fed up with the administrative hassles of private insurance that they are looking for alternatives.

Until now, stakeholders in the health care industry have generally muted their criticism of Democratic proposals. But as details of the legislation have emerged, the criticism has become more pointed.

America’s Health Insurance Plans, a lobby for insurers, said Tuesday that the government plan proposed by some Senate Democrats could “dismantle employer-based coverage and significantly increase costs for those who remain in private coverage.”

Under a proposal favored by many Democrats, doctors who take Medicare patients would also have to participate in the new public plan. Democrats say that requirement is needed to make sure the public plan can go into business right away with a large network of doctors.

The medical association said it “cannot support any plan design that mandates physician participation.” For one thing, it said, “many physicians and providers may not have the capability to accept the influx of new patients that could result from such a mandate.”

“In addition,” the A.M.A. said, “federal programs traditionally have never required physician or other provider participation, but rather such participation has been on a voluntary basis.”

In an interview, Dr. Nancy H. Nielsen, president of the American Medical Association, said she was delighted by Mr. Obama’s plan to address the doctors.

“Health care reform is as important to us as it is to him,” Dr. Nielsen said. “We will be engaged in discussions in a constructive way. But we absolutely oppose government control of health care decisions or mandatory physician participation in any insurance plan.”

Mr. Obama’s trip recalls a speech to the A.M.A. in Chicago on June 13, 1993, by Hillary Rodham Clinton. She proposed “a new bargain” in which the White House would limit malpractice lawsuits and free doctors from onerous rules if doctors supported her effort to overhaul the health care system.

The association agrees with Mr. Obama on some points. It says that individuals and families who can afford coverage should be required to obtain it.

Like Mr. Obama, the association wants Congress to cut payments to private Medicare Advantage plans. The White House says Medicare pays the private plans 14 percent more than it would cost the government to care for the same people in traditional Medicare.

DarrinS
06-11-2009, 09:13 AM
I thnk Obama is pissed about the economic crisis, and he wants to make his mark as a President. He's chosen the health-care program to do it. Even if he has to indebt us even more, there's no way that's coming off the agenda.


He's definitely making his mark as President.

JoeChalupa
06-11-2009, 09:13 AM
Darrin is one link posting mofo these days. :tu

JoeChalupa
06-11-2009, 09:14 AM
He's definitely making his mark as President.

As they all try to do.

GWB wanted to be known as the WAR President.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-11-2009, 09:19 AM
I thnk Obama is pissed about the economic crisis, and he wants to make his mark as a President. He's chosen the health-care program to do it. Even if he has to indebt us even more, there's no way that's coming off the agenda.

I don't think he's pissed. He wants for everyone to be dependent on the government for everything. That way they stay in power as elected leaders by giving more and more to the people. It's the liberal utopia.

Of course, that's all well and good until you run out of other people's money to spend (see California).

Bender
06-11-2009, 10:26 AM
Also, Obama will probably tax the benefits, McCain's much maligned approach
yep.

Campaigning McCain: "to help pay for the health insurance problem, maybe we could start taxing the health benefits people receive through their employers..."

Campaigning Obama: "No, no I would not do that..."

President Obama: "Hey, let's tax health insurance benefits."

LnGrrrR
06-11-2009, 10:29 AM
I don't think he's pissed. He wants for everyone to be dependent on the government for everything. That way they stay in power as elected leaders by giving more and more to the people. It's the liberal utopia.

Of course, that's all well and good until you run out of other people's money to spend (see California).

This would only make sense if we could elect life-long leaders. However, after 8 years, you're out. Then who do Presidents rely on? People with lots of money who are willing to pay to have them speak, or people to buy their book, etc etc. That doesn't work if they're giving all their money to the government.

Your argument would hold more water for a representative, I think.

coyotes_geek
06-11-2009, 10:42 AM
yep.

Campaigning McCain: "to help pay for the health insurance problem, maybe we could start taxing the health benefits people receive through their employers..."

Campaigning Obama: "No, no I would not do that..."

President Obama: "Hey, let's tax health insurance benefits."

Makes sense considering he's already copied most of Bush's economic policy.

Bender
06-11-2009, 10:44 AM
Makes sense considering he's already copied most of Bush's economic policy.
some "Change", right?

DarrinS
06-11-2009, 10:58 AM
With the economy tanking, it's the perfect time to impose socialized medicine and cap and trade. WTF are these people thinking?

Winehole23
06-11-2009, 11:01 AM
With the economy tanking, it's the perfect time to impose socialized medicine and cap and trade. WTF are these people thinking?That their window of opportunity is closing a little bit, every day.

FaithInOne
06-11-2009, 11:38 AM
I thnk Obama is pissed about the economic crisis, and he wants to make his mark as a President. He's chosen the health-care program to do it. Even if he has to indebt us even more, there's no way that's coming off the agenda.

Pissed about the economic crisis? Why is he making it worse then? Why increase bullshit spending? Why continue Bush's war? Why support cap and trade? Free up the people from government to get it started back up again. It'd be pretty easy. He understood this economic crisis was an opportunity to push through agenda and he is capitalizing on it.

Why is government continuing to boom right now? He and the rest of these faggot keynesians care more about growing government than the economy. That's change. That's hope. That's loyalty to the long-term survival of the country our founding fathers fought for. Yes We Can!

Like my boy Newt said. He and I are not citizens of the world. We don't want to be citizens of the world. Just get shit done here.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-11-2009, 12:29 PM
This would only make sense if we could elect life-long leaders. However, after 8 years, you're out. Then who do Presidents rely on? People with lots of money who are willing to pay to have them speak, or people to buy their book, etc etc. That doesn't work if they're giving all their money to the government.

Your argument would hold more water for a representative, I think.

Obama can pull a Gore and sit back and get rich after he's out. Hell, look at Gore. Dude's got a couple hundred million in the bank off his global warming bullshit.

Look at all the leftists in love with Obama. He can go on the speaking circuit and make millions. He's already putting out books and cashing in.

You would have a point, but look at Cali and Michigan. Dems have been in power for decades there, their economies are in the shitter, taxes are higher, and the Dems keep getting re-elected by promising more and more entitlement bullshit.

America is headed the way of California (bankrupt), and all the Obama admin seems to give a damn about is continuing the out of control spending to make everyone dependent on the government for everything. It's worked out well in Michigan and Cali, they couldn't have picked a more perfect model.

George Gervin's Afro
06-11-2009, 12:44 PM
Per the link, I am not sure I like the way this is shaping up.

Why not reward doctors , via business and personal income taxes, when they see patients without insurance? The govt could subsidize those who can prove they do not have access to affordable healthcare. If someone works for a company that offers health coverage then that should disqualify someone from govt assistance. This would force people to have to make prioritze thier current financial situations. No face lifts, tummy tucks, etc would be paid for byt the govt.. I do think EVERYONE should be able to see a specialist when it comes to serious, life threatening illnesses.


Not an easy problem but I would start with the doctors. I would then make it harder for pharmacuetical companies to keep other cheaper brands off the market. This notion that these comapnies can use legal loopholes to keep an expensive medication as the only one available is un American.

coyotes_geek
06-11-2009, 01:23 PM
I would then make it harder for pharmacuetical companies to keep other cheaper brands off the market. This notion that these comapnies can use legal loopholes to keep an expensive medication as the only one available is un American.

Agreed. This definitely needs to happen regardless of what we do with the rest of the healthcare system.

boutons_deux
06-11-2009, 02:12 PM
The best solution is a US govt no-profit public health insurance plan, is why the gouging commercial for-profit health insurance companies are spending 10s of $Ms to kill it.

also, the Repug law the forbids fed govt from negotiating drug prices must be annulled and govt should screw down drug prices.

coyotes_geek
06-11-2009, 02:24 PM
The best solution is a US govt no-profit public health insurance plan, is why the gouging commercial for-profit health insurance companies are spending 10s of $Ms to kill it.

Is that non-profit public health insurance plan going to charge people what it actually costs to provide coverage for them? Or is it going to charge a lot less than that and rack up huge losses that will be subsidized through massive tax increases and/or borrowing?

Free market competition is the only technique proven to work. Government subsidization has never solved anything.


also, the Repug law the forbids fed govt from negotiating drug prices must be annulled and govt should screw down drug prices.

Laws that prohibit free market competition need to be removed.

DarrinS
06-11-2009, 02:44 PM
The best solution is a US govt no-profit public health insurance plan, is why the gouging commercial for-profit health insurance companies are spending 10s of $Ms to kill it.

also, the Repug law the forbids fed govt from negotiating drug prices must be annulled and govt should screw down drug prices.





Navin R. Johnson: [bleakly] I've already given away eight pencils, two hoola dolls, and an ashtray, and I've only taken in fifteen dollars.

Frosty: Navin, you have taken in fifteen dollars and given away fifty cents worth of crap, which gives us a net profit of fourteen dollars and fifty cents.

Navin R. Johnson: Ah... It's a profit deal. Takes the pressure off. Get your weight guessed right here! Only a buck! Actual live weight guessing! Take a chance and win some crap!

LnGrrrR
06-11-2009, 03:01 PM
Obama can pull a Gore and sit back and get rich after he's out. Hell, look at Gore. Dude's got a couple hundred million in the bank off his global warming bullshit.

Look at all the leftists in love with Obama. He can go on the speaking circuit and make millions. He's already putting out books and cashing in.

You would have a point, but look at Cali and Michigan. Dems have been in power for decades there, their economies are in the shitter, taxes are higher, and the Dems keep getting re-elected by promising more and more entitlement bullshit.

America is headed the way of California (bankrupt), and all the Obama admin seems to give a damn about is continuing the out of control spending to make everyone dependent on the government for everything. It's worked out well in Michigan and Cali, they couldn't have picked a more perfect model.

Yes, but does the gov of California and Michigan have term limits? Like I said, I fully expect representatives to grow government, because they have no term limits, but it doesn't make sense for a President to do such.

ploto
06-11-2009, 06:29 PM
AMA opposes it because physicians think this plan means they will make less money.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-11-2009, 06:51 PM
The best solution is a US govt no-profit public health insurance plan, is why the gouging commercial for-profit health insurance companies are spending 10s of $Ms to kill it.

also, the Repug law the forbids fed govt from negotiating drug prices must be annulled and govt should screw down drug prices.


How you going to pay for it croutons? Ask mommy for more money?

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-11-2009, 06:53 PM
Yes, but does the gov of California and Michigan have term limits? Like I said, I fully expect representatives to grow government, because they have no term limits, but it doesn't make sense for a President to do such.

Like I said, Obama can go on the lecture circuit like Gore and make millions talking to his koolaid drinkers.

boutons_deux
06-11-2009, 07:33 PM
"Is that non-profit public health insurance plan going to charge people what it actually costs to provide coverage for them?"

For-profit insurance doesn't, why would public insurance? Do you have any clue how insurance works?

120M people have polled as supporting a public insurance option. That's a pool of PAYING insurees bigger than any for-profit health insurance.

Companies that spend 100s of $Ms on their employees' health plans ($12K/year avg for family of four, with $9K paid by the employer) will love to cancel the employer health plan when the public plan is available. What corp CEO/CFO wouldn't love to do that ASAP?

It's pretty clear that a public health plan would devastate the private health insurance companies with REAL competition. Killing private insurers back to selling to the super-rich would be wonderful. It's about time the private insurers get fucked the way they've been fucking their clients.

Private insurance has been fucking themselves already by pricing themselves out of reach for millions since the late 1990s, a trend which is accelerating now as 10M+ unemployed unable to afford their mortgages, never mind health insurance.

Nobody is forced to join the public insurance, you can keep letting yourself be gouged by private insurers, even think yourself as too good for the hated govt's insurance.

FaithInOne
06-12-2009, 12:18 AM
And the quality of this future health care?

Why are illegal immigrants always included in this 47 million uninsured figure?

Winehole23
06-12-2009, 04:05 AM
Why are illegal immigrants always included in this 47 million uninsured figure?Maybe because people who live here use our clinics and hospitals on an as needed basis, without regard to citizenship?

boutons_deux
06-12-2009, 05:10 AM
"the quality of this future health care?" the same medical system delivers care, it's only the insurer that changes.

LnGrrrR
06-12-2009, 07:54 AM
Like I said, Obama can go on the lecture circuit like Gore and make millions talking to his koolaid drinkers.

Right, but he can do that WITHOUT growing the government. See my point? :) Or do you think he has to, to go on the lecture circuit? If so, I respectfully disagree.

coyotes_geek
06-12-2009, 08:04 AM
"Is that non-profit public health insurance plan going to charge people what it actually costs to provide coverage for them?"

For-profit insurance doesn't, why would public insurance? Do you have any clue how insurance works?

120M people have polled as supporting a public insurance option. That's a pool of PAYING insurees bigger than any for-profit health insurance.

Companies that spend 100s of $Ms on their employees' health plans ($12K/year avg for family of four, with $9K paid by the employer) will love to cancel the employer health plan when the public plan is available. What corp CEO/CFO wouldn't love to do that ASAP?

It's pretty clear that a public health plan would devastate the private health insurance companies with REAL competition. Killing private insurers back to selling to the super-rich would be wonderful. It's about time the private insurers get fucked the way they've been fucking their clients.

Private insurance has been fucking themselves already by pricing themselves out of reach for millions since the late 1990s, a trend which is accelerating now as 10M+ unemployed unable to afford their mortgages, never mind health insurance.

Nobody is forced to join the public insurance, you can keep letting yourself be gouged by private insurers, even think yourself as too good for the hated govt's insurance.

Right. There's a $40 trillion dollar gap in medicare funding but the good old government isn't going to gouge anyone.