Robert Horry Thinks He Belongs in the Hall of Fame

[Pistons < Spurs]

Robert Horry Thinks He Belongs in the Hall of Fame, The Debate Begins
June 10, 2009 – 10:00 am by Jimmy Shapiro

One of my favorite parts of being a sports fan is the debates I have with my friends. Does Pete Rose belong in the Hall of Fame? Who is better Joe Montana, Dan Marino, or John Elway? Is golf really a sport? Who was better Bird or Magic? Should pro players be allowed to play in the Olympics? Should MLB allow instant replay all the time? Who’s more attractive, Venus or Serena? You get the point. I think Robert Horry’s candidacy for the NBA Hall of Fame will go down as one of the greatest debates of our time.

The pros: 7 championship rings with three different teams, one of the most clutch shooters of all time, numbers up across the board during the playoffs, tremendous defender with the ability to guard up to four positions, intangible factors that played a huge role in his teams being so successful.

The cons: Only averaged 7.0 points and 4.8 rebounds per game over his career, shot a paltry .425 from the field for his career including six years under 40%, never was one of the top two players on his team, never fully realized his potential as a player.

I can honestly see both sides of the debate and this is really new territory for the voters of the NBA Hall of Fame. If I had a vote, I would have to vote no. Just because he won seven championships and guys like Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing never won one, doesn’t mean he’s on the same level of greatness as them. Yes, Horry was money in the clutch, but he always left me with the feeling that he should havebeen so much better than he was. Should he be mentioned in same breath with some of the clutchest NBA shooters…absolutely. MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Jerry, Dr. J, Horry, Baylor, Russell. Something just doesn’t seem right there.

Robert Horry joined The Dan Patrick Show before game three of the NBA Finals and discussed his candidacy for the NBA Hall of Fame. Let the debate begin.

Which hat he would wear in the Hall of Fame:

“I can’t even come up with the words because I don’t know. I would probably have to go with the Lakers hat because I won 3 championships there and I played 7 seasons there so I have to go with the numbers.”

Does he think he’ll go to the Hall of Fame?

“To be honest with you I don’t think so. I think I should be because I’ve done a lot of great things in basketball. A lot of people look at the scoring aspect of basketball, they don’t look at the other things like defense, winning; I think I’m one of the most winningest players in this game. I’m a specialist in that I go out and make a team better; I was a specialist in playing D, I was a specialist in getting the job done and being a great teammate. You look at all of the guys I’ve played with and you go down in the 4th quarter and ask who do you want in the 4th quarter, they want me.”

Who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more: Dennis Rodman or Robert Horry?

“I’ll take me.”

Listen to Robert Horry on the Dan Patrick Show (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/listenlive.player.html?file=http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/danpatrick/audio/2009/06/09/DP-Robert_Horry-06-09-09_Interview.mp3)


http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2009/06/10/robert-horry-thinks-he-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-the-debate-begins/

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd say he's one of the best role players in NBA history, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near the HOF..

[whottt]

I think he belongs in the HOF too...it's not called the Hall of Stats.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Hall of Clutch: YES

Hall of Fame: NO

[whottt]

Robert Horry had a remarkable one of a kind career. He holds NBA records. He has had as many memorable moments, if not more, than perhaps player in NBA history.

He is absolutely a HOF'er.

The only way he's not a HOF'er is if stats are your only measure.

And even then, he was the first player in NBA history to tally 100+ blocks, steals and 3 pointers in a single season. A then remarkable and unheard of statistical feat.

Dude's a HOF'er easily IMHO.

[Galileo]

Put Bruce Bowen in the Hall.

[gaKNOW!blee]

Robert Horry had a remarkable one of a kind career. He holds NBA records. He has had as many memorable moments, if not more, than perhaps player in NBA history.

He is absolutely a HOF'er.

The only way he's not a HOF'er is if stats are your only measure.

And even then, he was the first player in NBA history to tally 100+ blocks, steals and 3 pointers in a single season. A then remarkable and unheard of statistical feat.

Dude's a HOF'er easily IMHO.

Not to mention the all time leader in Finals 3's

[whottt]

P<S is just a little upset because if not for Robert Horry, the Pistons would have one more championship than they do right now.

He's definitely a HOF'er.


In fact P<S would have a completely different name on this message board if not for Robert Horry.

[whottt]

Not to mention the all time leader in Finals 3's

Without a doubt, he also holds the single game record for steals, and he's all over the place in post season blocks and rebounds.

He started games at 3 different positions on NBA champions(3 different ones for 3 diffferent teams no less).

He's also easily one of the smartest players in NBA history, something on display even in this article as he names the team he would represent going in....by naming that team he will have much more support to get in the Hall than he would if he named the Spurs or Rockets.


He never failed to make the second round in his entire career...soemthing that should hit home hard with Spurs fans this year.

The only argument that can be used against Horry's HOF worthiness are his stats, he's got everything else in spades.

[Pistons < Spurs]

In fact P<S would have a completely different name on this message board if not for Robert Horry.

:lmao This is true.















:depressed:depressed:depressed:depressed

[spursfan1000]

There is no doubt he is a hall of famer.

[my2sons]

Only if he goes in as a SPUR...

[exstatic]

I think he belongs in the HOF too...it's not called the Hall of Stats.

Unfortunately, it's continually player stocked like the Hall of Stats. Generally, 7 ppg players like Horry don't get in. Make that never. I can't believe people even argue this.

He's one of my all time favorite Spurs, and clutch as hell, and I WILL say that he doesn't belong.

[afireinside20]

He's definetley a Hall Of Famer in my book. He was a key player on 3 different teams championships runs, making some of the most remarkable shots in history.

[poop]

he should definitely be worthy. see Whott's posts for reasons.

[EricB]

Nope.

[exstatic]

if this guy's in the HOF, horry should be

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/bhof-drazen-dalipagic.html

and so should steve kerr

Apples and oranges. Europe only players have different criteria. So do players like Manu who split their careers. I'll say Manu is a shoo in as a dual career player, but would have no chance at all just with his NBA resume.

If anyone can find a player who ONLY played in the NBA who has anything close to Horry's numbers who is in the HOF, I'll accept your argument. The lowest scorer I can think of is Bob Cousy at 18.4 ppg. That's quite a bit more than 7 ppg.

[xcoriate]

KC Jones was inducted as a player... but then he coached too.

Can't really comment to much though well before my time but he only average 7.5pts over his career with 4 assists.

[weebo]

Teams were never gearing up to stop Robert Horry. He was never the focal point on offense or defense for any of his teams. He was clutch as hell, but mostly because other players on his team garnered all the attention. He was a great teammate and a good role player that got lucky playing on teams with very dominant big men. Sorry but no way no how is this guy a HOFer.

[exstatic]

KC Jones was inducted as a player... but then he coached too.

Can't really comment to much though well before my time but he only average 7.5pts over his career with 4 assists.

Okey Dokey. If KC did go in as a player, you have your argument. I'll bow out still convinced he doesn't have a hope in hell of getting in.

[Spurminator]

There's a case to be made.

Consider the Baseball Hall of Fame. Letting Robert Horry in would be a little bit like letting Mariano Rivera in, wouldn't it? Rivera can't start; he won't break any wins or strikeout records, he's not going to carry any team to greatness, but like Horry he fit his role perfectly and was a key piece to a lot of great teams.

[poop]

Horry is the opposite of Iverson; Iverson put up huge career numbers but never won jack squat and generally made his teams worse. Horry's numbers look mediocre but his intangibles are unmeasurable, he made every team he was on better and always played huge when you needed him the most and left his mark on more big games than almost anyone.
if iverson is going in, Horry certainly should too.

stats cannot measure Horry's impact on his teams. but if i were putting together a team, he'd be on it above alot of those HOF'ers.

[whottt]

Unfortunately, it's continually player stocked like the Hall of Stats. Generally, 7 ppg players like Horry don't get in. Make that never. I can't believe people even argue this.

He's one of my all time favorite Spurs, and clutch as hell, and I WILL say that he doesn't belong.

It may have been player stocked like the Hall of Stats, but nowhere in the HOF charter does it say the criteria for induction is based on statistics.

And Horry is a unique player.

Yes there are a lot of guys that put up 7 and 5 or whatever....but there are very very few that are also the only non-Boston Celtic walking around with 7 rings, with his cadre of memorable clutch shots, blocks or whatever.

Using stats may be perfectly fine to disqualify many players from the HOF...they aren't a good enough reason to keep Horry out.

He's simply not like those other guys.

[Chief]

I loved what horry did for us, but how can you put a guy in the HOF when he has barely made the all star teams ?

I don't think there's many HOF'ers who weren't in almost every all star game every year.

[ploto]

Sorry, Rob but you don't belong there. Just because you had the fortune to play with the teammates you did does not mean you belong in the HOF when you were only a role player. You were never the focus of any defense and benefitted from big guys who drew double teams. Yes, you hit some timely shots, but that does not get you into the HOF. Even as shooter, you did not shoot a high percent.

[GSH]

He'll have an exhibit in the HOF, but you'll only be able to view it in May and June.

[whottt]

And I don't care what he teams he played for...

He never failed to make the second round, none of the teams of the surrounding eras he played for can say that, non of the supertars he played with can say that.

Tim Duncan can no longer say that you see, and ironically, he can't say it in the very first year Horry was retired.

You know, when the Spurs upgraded to the all time great Matt Bonner Kurt Thomas rotation.



He's got 7 rings, no other player on any team he played for has that many, none of the superstars he played with can can say that.




He's got more playoff appearances than any player in history, and you look at that list, and there are only impressive freaking names on it under Horry's name. None of the the other players he played with are on it anywhere near him, nor are any of the other Superstars.


He did at SF(for the Rockets), he did at PF(for the Lakers) and he did it at C(for the Spurs). Multiple times.

If that many championship teams wanted him, to play what was basically a starting role, and put him on the court in the final minutes of the most important games in the playoffs, and often, he bailed those superstars out, even if it was only for minutes at time, he was much more than merely a 7 and 5 player.


Robert Horry is a very special player, stats be damned. If everything says the player had a little something extra, except the stats? Then it's the stats that are misleading, not everything else.

[duncan228]

He'll have an exhibit in the HOF, but you'll only be able to view it in May and June.

:lol Perfect.

[whottt]

Sorry, Rob but you don't belong there. Just because you had the fortune to play with the teammates you did does not mean you belong in the HOF when you were only a role player. You were never the focus of any defense and benefitted from big guys who drew double teams. Yes, you hit some timely shots, but that does not get you into the HOF. Even as shooter, you did not shoot a high percent.

I guess you're ploto...I mean the Lakers only won 3 titles, Rockets 2, Spurs 2, they probably could have replaced him with any old scrub and won a title, because those guys won titles year in and year out without Horry...

Just imagine if those teams had replaced Horry with guys like Karl Malone and Charles Barkley to play alongside Hakeem and Shaq, imagine how many championships they would have won.

[TheSpursFNRule]

Yes he belongs in the hall of fame. One of the clutchest players in recent history. Big Shot Rob!

[SenorSpur]

Horry was a significant contributor to 7 NBA championship teams. A starter on 2 Houston title teams, role player on 3 Faker championships and 2 Spurs championship teams.

Horry was the type of player who did a lot of things well, and was THE clutch player of his era. Yet there is nothing you can point to and say he was great at.

All that said, I can't see Horry getting in.

[exstatic]

He'll have an exhibit in the HOF, but you'll only be able to view it in May and June.

GSH, FTW

:lol

[Sean Cagney]

Horry is the HOF three shooter in the finals... He showed up when needed, which alot of so called stars fail to do. They should have a HOF clutch player memorial, he would be there then lol.


I still love his comments after game 5 in 05 against Detroit, alot of players take the game so seriously and don't have fun, he said it best there. He did not give a shyt hit or miss, he hit most big shots but he really did not fear the big shot or shy away from it.

[IronMexican]

I'd have to say no, not really even close.

[temujin]

I'll go with Whott here.

Basketball is a team sports.

Team A wins.
Team B looses.

Horry was almost exclusively on Team A.

No matter where he played.

And Team A wins because it has the most intelligent players.

Players such Horry.

Statistics are the consolation prize for Teams B.

Life is so simple, here.

[Blackjack]

I'm generally pretty hard on who should be in any kind of Hall of Fame, but a big part of me agrees with Whott.

The Hall of Fame, in any sport, should usually consist of the greatest franchise-players of their respective generations, but there are exceptions to all rules.

Horry, I would argue, is one of those exceptions.

Besides, this is the Basketball Hall of Fame, afterall.

The standards just aren't quite the same.

Hell, could you really tell the history of the NBA without Robert Horry?

[Muser]

If he was never a Spur most of you would be saying no, damn he's probably the most clutch player in the history of the league, but HoF? No. There are way too many players who deserve it more.

[TDMVPDPOY]

we dont want steve kerr to come out and think he belongs in the discussion also....

[JamStone]

Probably the most unique and interesting case for potential induction into the Hall. There are definitely solid argument for both sides. But, the bottom line is does a role player and specialist deserve HOF status because he performed well on the biggest stage and was fortunate enough to be on teams with great players that really carried the teams he was on? I think that's tough to honor him for only showing up for a few plays in a few games instead of consistently excelling throughout his entire career.

Horry was great at hitting timely shots deep in the playoffs for championship runs. In some of those games where he hit big clutch shots, he hadn't even been playing well. He wasn't more than a solid player in the regular season. He wasn't even a great three point shooter in his career. He didn't excel at any one thing, scoring, rebounding, blocking shots. He didn't command a double team. What he was great at was hitting shots under pressure when the ball was swung or kicked out his way. Those shots happened to be memorable shots because of when he hit them.

I would agree that there should probably be some sort of shrine for his clutch shots. But, as a player, I don't think he deserves induction. As some have mentioned already, Steve Kerr would have to get some consideration as well then. And, if the Lakers win it this year, Derek Fisher would have to get consideration as well. And for the record, KC Jones should not be in the HOF as a player. Dennis Rodman still isn't in the HOF. Horry shouldn't be either.

[wildbill2u]

He was an underachiever throughout his career so based on his sheer stats and contribution to his teams he does not belong in the HOF.

However there is a back door to the HOF. Bob Lanier's basketball shoes were so large as to be curiosities and they are in the HOF. Horry should donate his rings or perhaps any ball that won a Final game with a clutch shot in the waning seconds.

[urunobili]

No brainer... he is a lock to get in...

[Da Spurs]

He should be a shoo-in. I don't think basketball HOF is as geared to statistics as baseball. Big Shot Rob will make it.

[adidas11]

Bob is one of my favorite players of all time. But no way in hell does he belong in the Hall of Fame.

[barbacoataco]

I don't understand how Dennis Rodman isn't in the HOF.

Horry is an interesting question and there is no "right" answer. The baseball HOF has lower standards than the basketball HOF. What you choose to value is a matter of opinion. Do you reward consistent year in, year out, results? Or do you give more weight to hitting the "big shot" and rising to a level of greatness in clutch championship situations?

In general I think they should let Horry in. The reason would be that he did a lot of things to help his team win, and he did it so many times in the playoffs with different teams, that you can't dismiss it as a fluke. He was kind of lazy and unmotivated in the regular season and that is why his career stats don't look better. He was a great defensive player as well.

[Indazone]

He should be in the Hall of Fame if nothing else but for being the luckiest SOB to ever get traded to championship teams.

[ShoogarBear]

If you took away about 5-10 plays in his career, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Does anybody else's Hall of Fame credentials depend on just 5-10 plays?

[whottt]

If you took away about 5-10 plays in his career, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Does anybody else's Hall of Fame credentials depend on just 5-10 plays?

#1. How many other players can you take those 5-10 plays away from.

2. Yes to an extent. Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal and to a lesser extent Tim Duncan would have vastly different looking careers without Duncan.


Because near as I can tell those 5-10 plays end up being worth about 7 Finals MVP's and 7 rings.

Not just your typical plays.


And just one of those plays may be what keeps Chris Webber out of the HOF.


It's not the Hall of Stats, and Horry doesn't get measured by the typical standard, because he is not a typical player.

There are no other role players that have those 5-10 plays, that's exactly the point. And there aren't many Superstars that have them either.


There are two types of people in this world, those that look at Horry and see a guy that put up 7 and 5...and those that look at Horry and see championship swings on his plays.


The type that look at Horry as a 7 5 player are the ones that sign on to dumping and replacing him with Matt Bonner and Kurt Thomas and then watch their team get bounced in the first round for the first time in 10 years.



You can also say this, with every team change Horry made, he was either replacing, or replaced by, a HOF'er...

The championship team on which he replaced the HOF'er went on to win 2 more titles with basically the same core.


The championship teams on which he was replaced by HOF'ers...went on to win nothing with that same core.


He's simply not a typical player and it is a huge mistake to analyze him as such...


Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan played with a lot of other bigmen in their careers, and the result was seldom as successful as it was with Horry, whether they were a HOF'er or not.

Lots of bigmen played with guys that put up 7 and 5 alongside them, the ones that did it with Horry are the ones rings, and you can clearly see the 5-10 plays that were the difference.

Furthermore, he's got more rings without the bigmen he played with, than they do without him, every single one of them.

Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem combined have a total of 3 rings without him. He's got at least 3 more rings than any of them have by themselves without him, and that's saying sometuing when you are talking about guys that have 4 rings like Duncan and Shaq.



And finally, you take 5-10 plays away from Michael Jordan, and he's no longer the GOAT.



Most importantly, no other player ever up for enshrinement opens up the same type of debate Horry does.


It's the Hall of Fame, and big shots are every bit as important to the game, if not moreseo, than MVP's and scoring titles. The big shots are what become famous, those are what people remember.. MVP awards and scoring titles aren't memorable, they do not represent fame...memorable shots do.

[JamStone]

#1. How many other players can you take those 5-10 plays away from.

2. Yes to an extent. Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal and to a lesser extent Tim Duncan would have vastly different looking careers without Duncan.


Because near as I can tell those 5-10 plays end up being worth about 7 Finals MVP's and 7 rings.

Not just your typical plays.

You can take away 5-10 plays from Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan at any point in their respective careers, even during the playoffs, even during the NBA Finals, and all three would still be HOFers. There are HOFers that didn't win championships. On the merits of the rest of their careers, they'd still be HOFers. They wouldn't be viewed as highly as they are now, but they'd still be HOFers.



There are no other role players that have those 5-10 plays, that's exactly the point. And there aren't many Superstars that have them either.

If they build a Hall of Fame for "role players," Horry would be one of the first players selected. The fact you realize and acknowledge Robert Horry was a role player gives a strong argument as to why he shouldn't be in the HOF.



And finally, you take 5-10 plays away from Michael Jordan, and he's no longer the GOAT.

But he'd still be in the HOF.



Most importantly, no other player ever up for enshrinement opens up the same type of debate Horry does.

Not exactly the same, but Dennis Rodman has a similar debate, although he actually has more individual credentials, with his accomplishments as a defensive player.



It's the Hall of Fame, and big shots are every bit as important to the game, if not moreseo, than MVP's and scoring titles. The big shots are what become famous, those are what people remember.. MVP awards and scoring titles aren't memorable, they do not represent fame...memorable shots do.

Big shots are important to the game. Horry's big shots should be in the HOF. As a player, he should not be.

[whottt]

You can take away 5-10 plays from Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan at any point in their respective careers, even during the playoffs, even during the NBA Finals, and all three would still be HOFers. There are HOFers that didn't win championships. On the merits of the rest of their careers, they'd still be HOFers. They wouldn't be viewed as highly as they are now, but they'd still be HOFers.


And there are a shitload of players not in the HOF that if you added those 5-10 plays to their careers would no brain HOF'ers.





If they build a Hall of Fame for "role players," Horry would be one of the first players selected. The fact you realize and acknowledge Robert Horry was a role player gives a strong argument as to why he shouldn't be in the HOF.



You show me where it says Role Players aren't eligible for the HOF...it says it nowhere on the HOF charter. Just like there is no statistical benchmark.


There is no role player Hall of Fame, there is only the basketball hall of fame, and please notice, it's not called the basketball Superstar Hall of Fame, it's called the Basketball Hall of Fame.

And that means role players, announcers, superstars, coaches, execs, or anyone that had anything to do with basketball goes in there if there is a notable reason for them to be there.





The entire purpose of the game is to win championships, not MVP awards, scoring titles etc.








Not exactly the same, but Dennis Rodman has a similar debate, although he actually has more individual credentials, with his accomplishments as a defensive player.


Allow me to put this debate to bed real quick, Dennis Rodman belongs in the HOF.







Big shots are important to the game.


Big shots are the game. No one dreams of winning scoring titles, everyone dreams of knocking down the big shot. It is the ultimate play you can make on a basketball court.





Horry's big shots should be in the HOF. As a player, he should not be.


Sorry but sticking players in there for reaching statistical benchmarks is boring, does nothing to enhance the HOF, attract people to it, or make them remember it...big shots do. And the entire purpose of the HOF is honor those that did make those contributions, and that is exactly what Horry did, for his entire career.


And there are plenty of guys in the HOF that have nowhere near the post season totals in numbers Robert Horry has.



Sorry, but Robert Horry is not just another guy that put up 7 and 5, and there is nothing stated anywhere in the HOF charter to back up your justification for keeping him out, and plenty to back up my justification for putting him in.


It's called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Statistical benchmarks met, or the Hall of most awards.

You guys are using the guidelines for a typical player, and Robert Horry is not a typical player. He will never be a typical player, no matter how much you or ignore or overlook to attempt to gloss him as one.

Typical players don't have 7 rings, finals records, post season records, replace or be replaced by HOF'ers on championship teams, play the final minutes of finals games etc.

Those are not the things typical players do.


Typical players also don't hold all time NBA records as Horry does.

[ShoogarBear]

Does anybody else's Hall of Fame credentials depend on just 5-10 plays?

All the verbiage doesn't hide this simple fact:


No

If Horry didn't have those 5-10 plays, even you wouldn't be saying he belonged in the Hall of Fame.

Based on your criteria, Derek Fisher only needs about 2-3 more plays.

[whottt]

Not exactly the same, but Dennis Rodman has a similar debate, although he actually has more individual credentials, with his accomplishments as a defensive player.


Just to go back to this...I can't even believe Dennis Rodman's merits even need to be discussed....I personally hate the guy but he is a top 3 rebounder in the history of the game...that alone puts him in the Hall IMO.

Really Dennis' off the court antics, and questionable sportsmanship and attitude are what hurt his case...it's damn sure not his game.

[whottt]

All the verbiage doesn't hide this simple fact:



If Horry didn't have those 5-10 plays, even you wouldn't be saying he belonged in the Hall of Fame.

Based on your criteria, Derek Fisher only needs about 2-3 more plays.



Seriously?

What if Michael Jordan didn't score all those points, would he still be a HOF'er?


You can do that with any player.

[ShoogarBear]

Seriously?

What if Michael Jordan didn't score all those points, would he still be a HOF'er?



5-10 plays in his career,

Did MJ score all his points in 5-10 plays?


You can do that with any player.

Really? What 5-10 plays got Wilt into the Hall? Or Bird? Or DRob?

[whottt]

Did MJ score all his points in 5-10 plays?

Did those points lead to as many championships as Horry's 5-10 plays did?




Really? What 5-10 plays got Wilt into the Hall? Or Bird? Or DRob?


No...it was statistical dominance, but all you need to know is that Horry has as many championships as they do, combined, which tells you what statistical dominance is worth without oh, 5-10 plays to make it count for something.

One could easily make the argument that had they played with Horry, they'd have more championships, whereas you can't really say the same thing about their potential impact on his career.

Horry defies conventional benchmarks and criteria...

How many 7-5 players never missed the second round of the playoffs in their 15 year career?

How many of them have 7 rings?


How many of them are the all time leader in playoff games played?

The all time leader in finals 3's?

Second all time in playoff 3's?

Won multiple championships with 3 different teams in a starters role?

Playing 3 different positons no less?

How many of them hold the single game finals record for steals?

Or playoff record for threes without a miss?

How many of them went off for 19 points in a 4th quarter in game 5 of the finals?


Robert Horry defies conventional weights for HOF worthiness...


There are no other 7 and 5 players like him.


He also gets the Bill Russell card...he won.

[ShoogarBear]

So then is Derek Fisher just a couple more big shots from the Hall?

[whottt]

You know...I can only think of one potnetial championship swinger Fisher made, and it didn't swing a championship. The next championship he wins having done it will be his first...

He'll then have 6 more to go to match Horry.

[JamStone]

This is a serious question. Can you name all of Robert Horry's big shots?

I remember the one against the Sacramento Kings in 2002 and the one in game 5 against the Pistons in 2005.

Now, I know he's hit other big clutch shots. But, do you really remember them specifically? I know he hit some big shots with Houston, but I don't recall them specifically or whether they were game-winners or game-tying shots or whether they were the difference between winning a championship or even winning a game.

I remember two specific jumpers that were huge, clutch shots. Do you really remember all of his other big shots? Were they game winners or game tying shots?

Again, serious question, because I don't.

[Mel_13]

This is a serious question. Can you name all of Robert Horry's big shots?

I remember the one against the Sacramento Kings in 2002 and the one in game 5 against the Pistons in 2005.

Now, I know he's hit other big clutch shots. But, do you really remember them specifically? I know he hit some big shots with Houston, but I don't recall them specifically or whether they were game-winners or game-tying shots or whether they were the difference between winning a championship or even winning a game.

I remember two specific jumpers that were huge, clutch shots. Do you really remember all of his other big shots? Were they game winners or game tying shots?

Again, serious question, because I don't.

Some good candidates:

GHkArsWPZbg

[ShoogarBear]

There was a youtube link in another thread listing his top 10 moments (not all of them shots).

[JamStone]

So how many of them were game winning shots or game tying shots?

[whottt]

This is a serious question. Can you name all of Robert Horry's big shots?

I remember the one against the Sacramento Kings in 2002 and the one in game 5 against the Pistons in 2005.

Now, I know he's hit other big clutch shots. But, do you really remember them specifically? I know he hit some big shots with Houston, but I don't recall them specifically or whether they were game-winners or game-tying shots or whether they were the difference between winning a championship or even winning a game.

I remember two specific jumpers that were huge, clutch shots. Do you really remember all of his other big shots? Were they game winners or game tying shots?

Again, serious question, because I don't.



Just off the top of my head:

#1. The first big shot hit he was against the Spurs in the 95 WCF Game 1. The game winner. The only shot he made of the game.

He hit a bunch of fucking shots against the Spurs when he was with the Rockets. He didn't hurt the Spurs much with LA, he did his damage to us as a Rocket. Always hit daggers. It was his defense on Duncan that hurt us in LA, and that was the main reason the Spurs signed him, so LA couldn't defend Duncan with him.

#2. Was the 95 Finals. When Hakeem took on Shaq, Robert Horry was the second best player after Hakeem on the Rockets. He had some huge scoring and rebounding games, and he also had 6 steals in one of those game. A finals record.

#3. Game 3 against the Sixers in 01. Horry closed this game fucking game out while Shaq and Kobe choked. AI had just come back to tie the series, basically all by himself and LA was in trouble. Horry did everything in the closing out of this game, passing, blocking shots, steals, scoring, getting to the FT line. He scored like the last 7 points of hte game. IMHO, this may have been his best performance.


#4. Against Portland the first round of WCSF in I think 02. As the clock was winding down Kobe kicked it out to him and he missed, with like 4 seconds left on the clock. The Lakers got the ball back and then Kobe kicked it to him again, and he hit it for the win, or tie with about 1 second left.

4. Sacremento



5. Detroit. I want you tell me with a straight face that Robert Horry didn't just totally fucking stab your team in the heart in that game. Stabbed them, directly the heart.

That was a fucking superstar performance.

You guys are right Horry didn't do it every game, just when it could make the difference in a championship, as if that doesn't fucking count.


#6. The hit on Nash. Horry was just a shadow of himself at this point, he was on the court very briefly, and in a span of seconds took Amare and Diaw out for the next game. And yes, I think he knew exactly what he was doing.


I would say the hit on West last year, but that didn't result in a championship.

[FromWayDowntown]

So I guess if you took away Jordan's: (1) shot over Ehlo in 1989; (2) buzzer-beater in Game 1 of the 1997 Finals; and (3) the game-winner over Russell in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals, the question of his Hall-worthiness would be a really, really difficult call.

I won't be distressed if Horry is enshrined, but if it were my vote to cast, he wouldn't get it, despite my affection for him as a basketball player.

[whottt]

His defense is also overlooked, when the Lakers were on the 3 peat run in so called era of the PF, Horry was the guy defending Sheed, and Webber, and Duncan.

When Hakeem was beating Barkley and Malone in the playoffs, Horry was the guy defending them.

When Hakeem beat Shaq in the playoffs, Hakeem had Horry. When Shaq beat Hakeem, he also had Horry. This is not so true with Duncan, but Duncan had Robinson, and that tandem well I'm probably homering out, but that was the best of them before Drob broke down.



When the Spurs signed Horry in 2004, they did so because he was the best Duncan defender in the NBA. By Duncan's own admission.


And finally to paraphrase Gregg Poppovich, "Forget about his scoring. He'll do something instantaneously in the middle of a play that is smarter than what the coaches would come up with analyzing the game film."


I don't think it can be overrstated that Horry was replaced by Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, and they weren't better for it.

I also think Robert Horry was a huge reason the Spurs never truly felt the loss of David Robinson, because Drob at the end of his career was what Horry had been for just about all of his, a role player to the nth degree.


And he always hit daggers, I don't care what his shooting PCT is...if your team played him enough I don't have to explain this to you, he's the dude you hated to see shooting it when the pressure was on.

[whottt]

So I guess if you took away Jordan's: (1) shot over Ehlo in 1989; (2) buzzer-beater in Game 1 of the 1997 Finals; and (3) the game-winner over Russell in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals, the question of his Hall-worthiness would be a really, really difficult call.

I won't be distressed if Horry is enshrined, but if it were my vote to cast, he wouldn't get it, despite my affection for him as a basketball player.

Jordan is the best player off all time, or so they say, of course you could subtract one or more elements from him and he will still be a HOF'er, but that's not true of all HOF'ers.


Shoogar's suggestion subtracted the absolute essence of Horry's game, then weighed his hall worthiness...a lot of HOF'er will fair to measure up if you do that to them. I mean not all of them are Jordan.

Hence my point in the rebuttal, and even Jordan might not be if you remove the absolute best part of his game, which is his scoring, not his memorable shots.


You remove the best of Jordan's game and his hall worthiness rests on his clutch shooting and his championships, the same case I am making for Horry. Unfortunatley Shoogar didn't go where I wanted him to when I made that statement so that I couild make that point.


He's a HOF'er...he really is, unless your only measure is stats.

[SpursFanInAustin]

Just to go back to this...I can't even believe Dennis Rodman's merits even need to be discussed....I personally hate the guy but he is a top 3 rebounder in the history of the game...that alone puts him in the Hall IMO.

Really Dennis' off the court antics, and questionable sportsmanship and attitude are what hurt his case...it's damn sure not his game.

The 1995 WCFs alone puts Horry over Rodman. The fact Horry came up big in the series due to Rodman becoming unravelled and refused to guard Horry to hang around the rim for rebounds and laying down on the sidelines with his sneakers off.

[adidas11]

Using Whott's logic, let us look at some other players who hit big shots and played on multiple championship teams:

Mario Elie
Steve Kerr
Sam Cassell
John Paxon
Kenny Smith

Yep. Let's place all of those players into the Hall.

[FromWayDowntown]

Using Whott's logic, let us look at some other players who hit big shots and played on multiple championship teams:

Mario Elie
Steve Kerr
Sam Cassell
John Paxon
Kenny Smith

Yep. Let's place all of those players into the Hall.

Well, and the Horry + Rodman arguments would certainly seem to indicate that among the greatest crimes in American history is the fact that Michael Cooper hasn't been enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

[whottt]

I was looking at Horry's wiki page, he's mentioned in like six songs...

Plus he's got his own song:

CqZQ7fYavT4




As long as humans have been on this planet they have sang songs about memorable deeds and the heros that did them...


This is no less true than it ever was...how many songs is Jordan in? Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan?



They sing songs about you, give you your own song(and it's a good song except for the Laker elements), you are HOF'er, in any HOF, in any time, in any where.


FAME, not STATS.

[whottt]

Using Whott's logic, let us look at some other players who hit big shots and played on multiple championship teams:

Mario Elie
Steve Kerr
Sam Cassell
John Paxon
Kenny Smith

Yep. Let's place all of those players into the Hall.

Massive failure.


Are you deliberately ignoring huge elements of Horry's career that they lack, or do you just think I am unaware of them?


Do any of those guys have 7 freaking championships?

Uh, no they don't.


Are any of those guys the all time leader in the playoff games played?


Uh, no they aren't. You know who was before Horry? Kareem Abduul Jabbar.


Are any of those guys the all time leader in Finals Threes?


Uh, no they aren't. You know who was before Horry? Michael Jordan.



Are any of those guys in the top 10 all time for like blocks, steals, rebounds and 3 pointers in playoff history?


Um, no they aren't.


Ironically enough, those guys were all 3 point shooters, yet Robert Horry holds more 3 point records in the playoffs than any of them. And he also pulled down rebounds and blocked shots and defended HOF'ers while he was doing it.



Did any of them win titles for 3 different teams, multiple times, starting at all three frontline positions?

Um, no they didn't.

Did any of those guys make the playoffs every year of their career?

No they didn't.


Which automatically excludes them from making the second round every year of their career, unlike Robert Horry.


Did Michael Jordan make the second round every year of his career?

No he didn't. He didn't even make the playoffs every year.

Neither did Shaq.

Neither did Hakeem.

Neither did anyone else Robert Horry played with other, now that Tim Duncan has failed to do so.



IF these things are so fucking easy to do, then how come Horry is the only one that's done them?






By all means only look at stats and use that as your entire and total criteria, just don't do it under the assumption that it is an accurate refelction of Horry's career...on the contrary, it is completely oblivious to just about all of his career.

[FromWayDowntown]

Jordan is the best player off all time, or so they say, of course you could subtract one or more elements from him and he will still be a HOF'er, but that's not true of all HOF'ers.


Shoogar's suggestion subtracted the absolute essence of Horry's game, then weighed his hall worthiness...a lot of HOF'er will fair to measure up if you do that to them. I mean not all of them are Jordan.

Hence my point in the rebuttal, and even Jordan might not be if you remove the absolute best part of his game, which is his scoring, not his memorable shots.


You remove the best of Jordan's game and his hall worthiness rests on his clutch shooting and his championships, the same case I am making for Horry. Unfortunatley Shoogar didn't go where I wanted him to when I made that statement so that I couild make that point.


He's a HOF'er...he really is, unless your only measure is stats.

I think that's a pretty massive stretch. Comparing Jordan's scoring to Horry's handful of clutch moments in playoff games is anything but a reasonable comparison.

What you've done in that comparison is ignore the fact that Jordan's greatness -- or the greatness that defines any Hall of Famer -- isn't something that's only evident from time-to-time Instead, the greatness that defines a Hall of Famer, to me at least, is the fact that it is sustained over long stretches that go many, many years in length. And, as importantly, that sustained greatness isn't something that reveals itself in isolated bursts; it is pervasive over the course of the player's career, game-in and game-out.

That Jordan is among the greatest scorers to ever play basketball and maintained that over more than 1,200 professional games is vastly different than the fact that Robert Horry made clutch shots in about 7 playoff games and played a role on a lot of successful teams -- in fact, teams that played more playoff games than any other player in history. Jordan was the primary reason why his teams were successful (and he was aided by some of the guys around him); Horry was the guy who aided the great players who were his teammates and whose pervasively-evident talents were the primary reason thsoe teams were successful.

I don't see how you get anywhere with the argument quoted above.

[whottt]

Simple, because the ultimate goal in the game is to win championships, and IMO, championships are better used to judge non-superstars than they are superstars.

Jordan scored all those points, played the exact number of years Horry did, yet he didn't win more championships than Horry did, and according to most, Jordan is the GOAT. So if Horry more championships without ever playing with the GOAT than the GOAT himself won, then obviously supporting players make a difference in championships won, or else Jordan would have the most.

And since a championship is the ultimate gol of the game, that is a Hall Worthy Contribution when done on the massive scale Horry did it, if anything is, much moreso than merely putting up stats.


Robert Horry is not a typical player and will easily defy any and all attempts to shoehorn him into that catergory.

And it's not the Hall of Superstars or the Hall of Stats, it's the basketball hall fame, and it's membership is not exclusive to guys that met statistical benchmarks. It states that nowhere, and I imagine they had and have very good reasons for not putting that limit on eligibility.


Benchmarks are a fine method of judging hall worthiness in most cases, but they are not, nor should they ever be, the absolute and total. And they are not always the best measure...

Particularly in this case.

[whottt]

When the only players with 7 or more championships rings are members of the greatest dynasty of all time, and Robert Horry who was not, that is an alarmingly unusual circumstance. It would seem on the superficial level that player was doing to special to contribute...a closer examanation of Robert Horry's career easily shines light on the fact that, yes he was doing something special to contribute. It is easy to see it...it's those 5-10 plays.


Shaq's era?
Kobe's era?
Duncan's era?

Dynasty? The only true dynasty of this era was Robert Horry.


It was Robert Horry's era, because he was the fixture in the finals, not them.

And his team never lost either.

He is not a typical player.

[ploto]

When the Spurs signed Horry in 2004, they did so because he was the best Duncan defender in the NBA. By Duncan's own admission.
Actually Tim said that about Rasheed Wallace.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I dont really care whether he gets it or not but I do think he deserves to be a HOF. HOFs are those who had great basketball careers or had a great contribution to the sport of basketball. Statistics help but they don't always name HOFs.

[GSH]

Whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not, let me say this in defense of Horry. His strength... his specialty... was much more than hitting game winning shots. There are often certain moments that can change the outcome of a game. It might be a matter of stopping a catch-up run, turning the momentum in your team's favor, silencing the crowd, taking away the opponents' will, or giving hope to your own teammates and getting them back into the game. But a lot of games turn on just a couple of plays, and everyone in the arena can feel it when those things happen. A block or a steal on one end, and a 3-pointer on the other, maybe draw a cheap offensive foul, and suddenly the whole game feels different. Robert Horry always had an uncanny sense for those moments.

People used to say that he shifted gears in March. But he shifted gears in individual games - just when it would do the most damage to the opposing teams. Game-winning shots always make the highlight reels. But what a lot of reporters (and fans) tend to forget, is how often Robert Horry was the reason that the game was close enough to win with a buzzer-beater. Or how often he kept the other team from making a game close enough for them to possibly win with a buzzer-beater of their own.

I have a mental image of Horry scoring a basket, and then shambling down the court slowly - and suddenly turning to steal the in-bounds pass and dunk it. I've watched him do it a dozen times or more (probably many more) and it always demoralized the other team. He could turn a 10 point lead into a 5 point lead in a couple of seconds, and make the other team start pressing to make their own shots.

The last-second shots were just one aspect of Horry's real talent - he knew how to cut the heart out of the other team. He knew just when to do something special - but he also had the ability to actually make it happen. If it were only a few times, it might be luck. But he did it repeatedly, over the course of his whole career. That's one hell of a basketball skill.

And yes, it did translate into championships. Houston probably wouldn't have won either of those rings without Horry. (I watched A LOT of Rockets games in those days.) For instance, in the 1995 Finals, the Rockets won 120-118 in overtime. People remember that Nick Anderson missed 4 free throws, and that Kenny Smith made the late 3-pointer to take the game to OT. But they forget that the Magic jumped out to a 20-point lead in the first half, and that it was Robert Horry's 5 blocks and 3 steals that shut down Orlando's momentum long enough for his team to climb back into the game. Without him, Smith's shot at the end would have been moot. Of course, it didn't hurt that he nailed back-to-back 3-pointers to open up the overtime. That game killed the Magic, and the series was basically over as soon as it started.

If there's not a special place in the HOF for Horry, maybe there should be. It's sort of like when Bill Bates played for the Cowboys. He made such a difference on special teams, that the NFL actually added a spot in the Pro Bowl for a special teams guy. Bates got inducted into the "Madden Hall of Fame", because Madden recognized how a guy like that could change the outcome of a game. He will probably never be in the official NFL Hall of Fame, but Madden understands just how valuable Bates was to those Superbowl teams. If there was a Madden Hall of Fame for basketball, Horry would definitely be in it.

[temujin]

Whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not, let me say this in defense of Horry. His strength... his specialty... was much more than hitting game winning shots. There are often certain moments that can change the outcome of a game. It might be a matter of stopping a catch-up run, turning the momentum in your team's favor, silencing the crowd, taking away the opponents' will, or giving hope to your own teammates and getting them back into the game. But a lot of games turn on just a couple of plays, and everyone in the arena can feel it when those things happen. A block or a steal on one end, and a 3-pointer on the other, maybe draw a cheap offensive foul, and suddenly the whole game feels different. Robert Horry always had an uncanny sense for those moments.

People used to say that he shifted gears in March. But he shifted gears in individual games - just when it would do the most damage to the opposing teams. Game-winning shots always make the highlight reels. But what a lot of reporters (and fans) tend to forget, is how often Robert Horry was the reason that the game was close enough to win with a buzzer-beater. Or how often he kept the other team from making a game close enough for them to possibly win with a buzzer-beater of their own.

I have a mental image of Horry scoring a basket, and then shambling down the court slowly - and suddenly turning to steal the in-bounds pass and dunk it. I've watched him do it a dozen times or more (probably many more) and it always demoralized the other team. He could turn a 10 point lead into a 5 point lead in a couple of seconds, and make the other team start pressing to make their own shots.

The last-second shots were just one aspect of Horry's real talent - he knew how to cut the heart out of the other team. He knew just when to do something special - but he also had the ability to actually make it happen. If it were only a few times, it might be luck. But he did it repeatedly, over the course of his whole career. That's one hell of a basketball skill.

And yes, it did translate into championships. Houston probably wouldn't have won either of those rings without Horry. (I watched A LOT of Rockets games in those days.) For instance, in the 1995 Finals, the Rockets won 120-118 in overtime. People remember that Nick Anderson missed 4 free throws, and that Kenny Smith made the late 3-pointer to take the game to OT. But they forget that the Magic jumped out to a 20-point lead in the first half, and that it was Robert Horry's 5 blocks and 3 steals that shut down Orlando's momentum long enough for his team to climb back into the game. Without him, Smith's shot at the end would have been moot. Of course, it didn't hurt that he nailed back-to-back 3-pointers to open up the overtime. That game killed the Magic, and the series was basically over as soon as it started.

If there's not a special place in the HOF for Horry, maybe there should be. It's sort of like when Bill Bates played for the Cowboys. He made such a difference on special teams, that the NFL actually added a spot in the Pro Bowl for a special teams guy. Bates got inducted into the "Madden Hall of Fame", because Madden recognized how a guy like that could change the outcome of a game. He will probably never be in the official NFL Hall of Fame, but Madden understands just how valuable Bates was to those Superbowl teams. If there was a Madden Hall of Fame for basketball, Horry would definitely be in it.

:clap

Verbose, but absolutely right.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Don't care about stats, it's not the Hall of Stars, neither the Hall of Stats like others have already said, it's the place where players with remarkable careers are honoured. Robert Horry has deffinitely had a remarkable career, in fact, one of the most remarkable ones.

[ambchang]

I can't think of any significant contribution of basketball that Horry had for basketball, maybe he was one of the first oversized 3-pt shooting SF, but that is really stretching it.

Point is, a player's contribution should not only be a few shots, it should be a whole body of work. Outside of his all-rookie 2nd team selection, Horry never had any other individual accolades. No All-star selections, no all-nba selections, all-D teams, MVPs, playoff MVPs, DPoY, 6MoY, nothing.

Finally, look at his stint with the Suns, didn't make them much better without Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan, did he? He was pretty much a perfect compliment next to a dominant low post player because of his versatility. He can shoot, he plays good one on one and team defense, he positions himself well on offense and defense, but ultimately, he is a role player who benefitted from playing on great teams.

He's a catalyst.

[SenorSpur]

And for the record, KC Jones should not be in the HOF as a player. Dennis Rodman still isn't in the HOF. Horry shouldn't be either.

I believe HOF voters DO look at stats because they serve as a gauge on how productive a player has been from game-to-game, season-to-season. From that standpoint, Rodman is a more decorated role player than Horry.

The fact is that Rodman's individual accomplishments & stats (7.3 ppg, 13 rpg. 1.8 apg) are more impressive than Horry's (7.0 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.0 apg, 1.0 spg). Furthermore, Rodman led the NBA in rebounding 7 straight seasons, 2-time Defensive Player of the Year, and 3-time NBA champion.

I love Horry and would not take anything away from his career and his reputation as being a clutch performer. He was as versatile, brilliant, and as clutch of a player, as there has ever been in the NBA. That said, I just don't think that reputation alone gets him in the HOF. Meanwhile, Rodman's overall body of work would warrant stronger consideration. Therefore, I tend to agree with you. If Rodman doesn't get in, neither should Horry.

Lastly, I've never been a fan of anyone who campaigns for accolades. Horry's career speaks for itself. He doesn't need to.

[Agloco]

He'll have an exhibit in the HOF, but you'll only be able to view it in May and June.

+1

I love this idea. Like a secret room which only opens once the playoffs start and closes once they end.

[poop]

if i were putting a team together id have horry on the reserves in front of maybe half the guys on that top 50 list.

he can do literally anything for your team. he just wins.

[sananspursfan21]

he does belong in the hall of fame

[Yuixafun]

With Robert Horry it always felt like you had an ace in your pocket.

I hope the shrine has a place for him.