Why is everyone so defensive about Ginobili?

[Rob123]

He's a great player, I love the guy, I only have two jerseys, Ginobili being one of them. I dont understand all this hate on people that are suggesting he be traded. Unless you have a crystal ball and can tell with certainty he's going to be 100% next year, trading him for two young promising players is something that has to be considered.

If Ginobili is 100% next year he is definitely far more valuable to our team than anyone we could pick up through trade and or draft. A 100% ginobili is a dangerous thing.

However, it's been a while since we've seen Ginobili at 100%, and 100% Ginobili these days is no longer 2005 form. Seeing what's out there for him is just good business, why put all our eggs in one basket and just pray for him to return to form?

Whether he stays or goes, i hate seeing people called fake fans because they suggest a trade.

Choosing loyalty over reason often times leaves you holding the bag in the end.

[ElNono]

What 'two young promising players' that we could get for Ginobili and that would put us over the top do you suggest?

I don't think realistically that trade exists. The only way to that would exist is some team offering a 'stupid trade', as Pop put it. It's simply not realistic to sit down and wait for such trade to come around.

So, again, what two young guys we could get that would put us over the top, realistically speaking (salary wise, etc).

[SouthTexasRancher]

He's a great player, I love the guy, I only have two jerseys, Ginobili being one of them. I dont understand all this hate on people that are suggesting he be traded. Unless you have a crystal ball and can tell with certainty he's going to be 100% next year, trading him for two young promising players is something that has to be considered.

If Ginobili is 100% next year he is definitely far more valuable to our team than anyone we could pick up through trade and or draft. A 100% ginobili is a dangerous thing.

However, it's been a while since we've seen Ginobili at 100%, and 100% Ginobili these days is no longer 2005 form. Seeing what's out there for him is just good business, why put all our eggs in one basket and just pray for him to return to form?

Whether he stays or goes, i hate seeing people called fake fans because they suggest a trade.

Choosing loyalty over reason often times leaves you holding the bag in the end.


First and foremost you don't just kick someone out who was extremely instrumental in bringing your team 3 Championship Trophy's! Second, Manu is better than anyone else out there in his salary range. And third, you give the guy the benefit of the doubt at this point in time, especially since expert doctors say he should be fine.

Maybe you'd be happier being a bandwagon fan for another team and/or player.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Well, in order for a trade to happen many things have to match, salary, etc. But as elnono said above I don't see Popovich letting him go unless they get a "Pau Gasol-type" trade which would be considered a steal and would mark the next season as a * one. Other than that, I'm not sure.

[ducks]

because he makes a fa couple shots at the end of the game
mostly free throws
and he is the one that gets the credit with the win

[TMTTRIO]

Because people are already coming to the conclusion that he's finished (when we can't say if he is or isn't) and ready to make stupid trades that make no sense for one or both of the teams involved just to get rid of him.

[ElNono]

because he makes a fa couple shots at the end of the game
mostly free throws
and he is the one that gets the credit with the win

Tony got a lot of love this season. You should be proud and happy, not bitter and jealous.

But whatever floats your boat.

[ducks]

I answer the question
you are the one trying to start the manu vs tp debate not me

[Rob123]

First and foremost you don't just kick someone out who was extremely instrumental in bringing your team 3 Championship Trophy's! Second, Manu is better than anyone else out there in his salary range. And third, you give the guy the benefit of the doubt at this point in time, especially since expert doctors say he should be fine.

Maybe you'd be happier being a bandwagon fan for another team and/or player.

Nah, Im quite happy has a bandwagon fan of the spurs. 15 years strong and counting. Maybe one day i'll be as cool you, and be considered a real fan.

What's everyone on this board going to be saying if Ginobili doesn't come back to form next season? What if he goes down again and we're stuck holding the bag with damaged goods.

Now's our opportunity. We can choose to keep him, and pray. Or take advantage of the value he has now, and pray. Either way it's bad business to not first consider both options heavily. The path we choose will most likely impact our team for years to come.

[ElNono]

I answer the question
you are the one trying to start the manu vs tp debate not me

I'm not starting any debate, because I personally don't think there's anything to debate. We need all of Manu, Tony and Timmy to have a chance.

You're the one that thinks the only thing Manu does is make free throws to win and take all the credit, when that's obviously not true.

Again, whatever floats your boat.

[ElNono]

What's everyone on this board going to be saying if Ginobili doesn't come back to form next season? What if he goes down again and we're stuck holding the bag with damaged goods.

Now's our opportunity. We can choose to keep him, and pray. Or take advantage of the value he has now, and pray. Either way it's bad business to not first consider both options heavily. The path we choose will most likely impact our team for years to come.

What if we trade him and the youngsters don't pan out. We end up wasting TD's final years, while Manu ends up being fine and winning a couple more in LA or Cleveland?

The coin can land on either face. It's a gamble no matter what you do. The question is what's the most likely scenario... And to be honest, I have not seen any promising young prospects actually have an impact on a championship team for years...
I mean, Lebron made an impact on the league overall, but he's still looking to win his first.

[ducks]

What if we trade him and the youngsters don't pan out. We end up wasting TD's final years, while Manu ends up being fine and winning a couple more in LA or Cleveland?

The coin can land on either face. It's a gamble no matter what you do. The question is what's the most likely scenario... And to be honest, I have not seen any promising young prospects actually have an impact on a championship team for years...
I mean, Lebron made an impact on the league overall, but he's still looking to win his first.

what happens if we do not trade him and he gets hurt again

[ducks]

What if we trade him and the youngsters don't pan out. We end up wasting TD's final years, while Manu ends up being fine and winning a couple more in LA or Cleveland?

The coin can land on either face. It's a gamble no matter what you do. The question is what's the most likely scenario... And to be honest, I have not seen any promising young prospects actually have an impact on a championship team for years...
I mean, Lebron made an impact on the league overall, but he's still looking to win his first.
james did not have a team like the spurs
manu is a one time allstar
a borderline allstar
spurs do not need a superstar
a borderline allstar only

[mookie2001]

part of it is there are a lot of argentinian posters who arent real fans, theyre fans of one player and kori and timvp let them run the show

its also his skin color, sad but true

[ElNono]

what happens if we do not trade him and he gets hurt again

Same thing that happens if we DO trade him and the youngsters don't pan out.
I mean, we had two youngsters this season, Mason and Hill.
I think the results speak for themselves...

[ducks]

part of it is there are a lot of argentinian posters who arent real fans, theyre fans of one player and kori and timvp let them run the show

its also his skin color, sad but true

yeah he speaks spanish so he is gold:lol

[ducks]

Same thing that happens if we DO trade him and the youngsters don't pan out.
I mean, we had two youngsters this season, Mason and Hill.
I think the results speak for themselves...

who says they would be youngsters?
could be the same age

[ducks]

pop admitted his mistake of not playing hill
hopefully he will learn from playing younger players in playoffs

[ElNono]

I'm still waiting for the 'two promising youngsters' that will put us over the top...

So far is the same old bickering...

[ElNono]

who says they would be youngsters?
could be the same age

So, who? I mean, you have it all figured out...
Who are we getting, and why would the other team do it?

[ducks]

I'm still waiting for the 'two promising youngsters' that will put us over the top...

So far is the same old bickering...
still waiting to be convinced a healthy manu with this team will win it all

[TDMVPDPOY]

i trade his ass, if it keeps us competitive for the next 10yrs, maybe groom someone to take over the team when duncan retires or parker decides to bolt.

[ElNono]

still waiting to be convinced a healthy manu with this team will win it all

We need more than a healthy Manu to win it all. We need a healthy Tim, and we need more and better pieces around.

I'm still waiting to be convinced how trading Manu improves our chances to get over the top in the next two seasons.

[ducks]

So, who? I mean, you have it all figured out...
Who are we getting, and why would the other team do it?

rumor is out suns are listening to cavs
and basically cavs are getting shaq for nothing but expiring contracts and picks


with the economy the way it is
the spurs expirign contracts are worth alot

and manu is a exciting player (20-25 minutes a game only though) that would help ticket sells

[ducks]

We need more than a healthy Manu to win it all. We need a healthy Tim, and we need more and better pieces around.

I'm still waiting to be convinced how trading Manu improves our chances to get over the top in the next two seasons.

depends on who they get for him
I am not for trading manu for nothing

[mookie2001]

why put all our eggs in one basket and just pray for him to return to form?ROFL watch this

plus Manu doesnt even believe in God!
all his catholic fans praying for him and hes not even a believer

[ElNono]

rumor is out suns are listening to cavs
and basically cavs are getting shaq for nothing but expiring contracts and picks

with the economy the way it is
the spurs expirign contracts are worth alot

and manu is a exciting player (20-25 minutes a game only though) that would help ticket sells
So who? We all know about how expiring contracts are valuable and how exciting Manu is, and how he helps sell tickets...

So who we can realistically trade him for? Names please...

[ducks]

We need more than a healthy Manu to win it all. We need a healthy Tim, and we need more and better pieces around.

I'm still waiting to be convinced how trading Manu improves our chances to get over the top in the next two seasons.

so you are going to improve the team with the mle only and no trades?

[ElNono]

depends on who they get for him
I am not for trading manu for nothing

Great. So who we should be trading him for, and why would the other team do it?

[ElNono]

so you are going to improve the team with the mle only and no trades?

Don't we have a lot of valuable expiring contracts?

[mookie2001]

people dont buy tickets to watch his chump ass sit the bench

[ducks]

So who? We all know about how expiring contracts are valuable and how exciting Manu is, and how he helps sell tickets...

So who we can realistically trade him for? Names please...

if I was the gm I would call
spurs already called washington for pick

all sun players are on block expect nash
I bet all hornets are on block except cp3
ray allen is on the block

bosh is
tracy is
many others also

if you are the spurs you call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ducks]

Don't we have a lot of valuable expiring contracts?

spurs have a few yes
but if you sweeten the pot with manu to
you hopefully get a nice piece

[ducks]

people dont buy tickets to watch his chump ass sit the bench

I agree
I WAS using what the other gm would think


their are clippers on the block to since they won the draft

[Rob123]

So, who? I mean, you have it all figured out...
Who are we getting, and why would the other team do it?

Dude you're missing the point. Nick Young and The #5 dont compare to a healthy ginobili. But like you said it's 50/50 What if Ginobili never recovers to form?

It's a gamble, we'll be kicking ourselves if Manu goes down and we missed out on two solid contributors in Young and #5.

That's what this thread is about. It's not bandwagoning to suggest a trade.

[mookie2001]

we'll be kicking ourselves if Manu goes down
when

[TDMVPDPOY]

call the raptors, so they can field a all euro team bs they have goin on over there for the last few seasons....

[ElNono]

Dude you're missing the point. Nick Young and The #5 dont compare to a healthy ginobili. But like you said it's 50/50 What if Ginobili never recovers to form?

It's a gamble, we'll be kicking ourselves if Manu goes down and we missed out on two solid contributors in Young and #5.

That's what this thread is about. It's not bandwagoning to suggest a trade.

In 3 years at best? TD is gone by then, and neither of those two guys can carry a franchise.

I never claimed that asking to trade Manu is being a bandwagon fan. I'm asking for realistic trades that takes us over the top.
I still haven't heard one.

[ducks]

call the raptors, so they can field a all euro team bs they have goin on over there for the last few seasons....

AMEN
they would throw in bosh !

spurs could throw in oberta to and they would have more euro players

[ElNono]

if I was the gm I would call
spurs already called washington for pick

all sun players are on block expect nash
I bet all hornets are on block except cp3
ray allen is on the block

bosh is
tracy is
many others also

if you are the spurs you call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spurs want to win now. That's why the pick for Manu was shot down. We don't have time to groom players.

Bosh is a free agent next summer, so renting him for one season makes no sense, not to mention he makes $5 million more than Manu next season.

Ray Allen makes $19 million next season, and is also a free agent next summer.

You bitch about Manu's health and you want Tracy McGrady?

[Rob123]

In 3 years at best? TD is gone by then, and neither of those two guys can carry a franchise.

I never claimed that asking to trade Manu is being a bandwagon fan. I'm asking for realistic trades that takes us over the top.
I still haven't heard one.

There is no trade that puts us over the top! Ginobilis value is unknown right now. We can keep him and hope for the best, or do a lateral trade that keeps us in contention. Face it, if Ginobili goes down we're not in contention for anything. I'm not trying to make this team a lock for the championship, I just want them to be competitive night in and night out.

The washington trade would do that for this team. At the same time I can see the trade backfiring and Ginobili tearing it up on the wizards. It's a difficult decision and I'm glad I'm not making it.

[TMTTRIO]

Besides if Manu is useless and finished like people are claiming why would Was be so stupid to make the trade? They can get better offers than Manu. I say we see how Manu does this year and let him walk next year and go after some FA.

[ducks]

Spurs want to win now. That's why the pick for Manu was shot down. We don't have time to groom players.

Bosh is a free agent next summer, so renting him for one season makes no sense, not to mention he makes $5 million more than Manu next season.

Ray Allen makes $19 million next season, and is also a free agent next summer.

You bitch about Manu's health and you want Tracy McGrady?

spurs can talk about an extension before they trade for bosh
and trading manu for bosh and spurs win it all would be worth it even if bosh bolts

did not say wanted tracy just mentioned a few that are on the block..........

[ElNono]

There is no trade that puts us over the top! Ginobilis value is unknown right now. We can keep him and hope for the best, or do a lateral trade that keeps us in contention. Face it, if Ginobili goes down we're not in contention for anything. I'm not trying to make this team a lock for the championship, I just want them to be competitive night in and night out.

The washington trade would do that for this team. At the same time I can see the trade backfiring and Ginobili tearing it up on the wizards. It's a difficult decision and I'm glad I'm not making it.

This is exactly the point. There isn't such a trade, unless it's an idiotic trade. A very, very unlikely trade. A Gasol type of trade.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any rookies/sophomores keeping a team in contention. And I don't want to have a team that you know it's not good enough to win it all. Especially when you have pieces like Duncan and Tony that you know simply need a third star to really give you the best chance to get you over the top. I'd like to see an example of two rooks/sophomores replacing star talent.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Besides if Manu is useless and finished like people are claiming why would Was be so stupid to make the trade? They can get better offers than Manu. I say we see how Manu does this year and let him walk next year and go after some FA.

WAS definitely has a place in their roster for Manu and is a team that is ready to win now, they aren't precisely rebuilding. The have several pretty good players and need a couple more to contend heavily in the playoffs. Using their 5# pick would give them a prospect most likely but they can't wait any longer for a future prospect as they are built right now, especially with GA's contract. I'm pretty sure they will end up trading that pick before the draft for someone who can help them contend now.

[tav1]

because he's manu ginobili

[Rob123]

This is exactly the point. There isn't such a trade, unless it's an idiotic trade. A very, very unlikely trade. A Gasol type of trade.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any rookies/sophomores keeping a team in contention. And I don't want to have a team that you know it's not good enough to win it all. Especially when you have pieces like Duncan and Tony that you know simply need a third star to really give you the best chance to get you over the top. I'd like to see an example of two rooks/sophomores replacing star talent.

You're still missing the point.

We can have our fate ride on two rooks sophomores, one of which has shown flashes of brilliance. Or we can hope for Ginobili.

Manu sitting on the bench isnt going to keep us in contention either. What do you suggest?

[ducks]

not sure I would trade manu for a draft pick
I am for a butler and the 5 pick though
so the spur player they would be getting would not be a 2 year player or younger
but more of a seasoned players

[ElNono]

spurs can talk about an extension before they trade for bosh
and trading manu for bosh and spurs win it all would be worth it even if bosh bolts

did not say wanted tracy just mentioned a few that are on the block..........

I don't think the Spurs simply can offer a max contract to Bosh, which is what most likely he will be getting next summer. The question also is why would Toronto want to do it, considering Bosh is young, he's been the face of their franchise, and can probably sign him to a max extension also.

[ducks]

I don't think the Spurs simply can offer a max contract to Bosh, which is what most likely he will be getting next summer. The question also is why would Toronto want to do it, considering Bosh is young, he's been the face of their franchise, and can probably sign him to a max extension also.

rumors are they are already thinking about it
they do not want to lose bosh for nothing

[ElNono]

You're still missing the point.

Not at all. I think you're daydreaming.


We can have our fate ride on two rooks sophomores, one of which has shown flashes of brilliance. Or we can hope for Ginobili.

I'm still waiting for you to mention which rooks have contributed massively to a championship team in the past 10 years or so... displaying brilliance or not. I guess I have to keep waiting, because I don't see them.


Manu sitting on the bench isnt going to keep us in contention either. What do you suggest?

Rookies playing OR sitting on the bench aren't going to keep us in contention either. What do you suggest?

[ElNono]

rumors are they are already thinking about it
they do not want to lose bosh for nothing

Of course not. Same will happen with the Spurs mid-january if Manu turns out to be fine.

[ElNono]

not sure I would trade manu for a draft pick
I am for a butler and the 5 pick though
so the spur player they would be getting would not be a 2 year player or younger
but more of a seasoned players

This is the part where I have to ask you why would Washington do a trade like that?

[Rob123]

Not at all. I think you're daydreaming.



I'm still waiting for you to mention which rooks have contributed massively to a championship team in the past 10 years or so... displaying brilliance or not. I guess I have to keep waiting, because I don't see them.



Rookies playing OR sitting on the bench aren't going to keep us in contention either. What do you suggest?

Im confused by your logic man, utterly bewildered.

What it comes down to is do you want a player that may spend the rest of his career riding the bench, or do you want to gamble on two young prospects that have potential in the future and possibly present?

It's perpetually injured vs. solid contributions.

And what are you talking about? Do you watch basketball? Did you not see Derrick Rose tear it up in the playoffs, or OJ Mayo, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, Trevor Ariza tear it up on their teams? Imagine if those players were playing next to TIM DUNCAN AND TONY PARKER and being coached by Popavich?

You're just confusing me

[intlspurshk]

tp is not that brilliant by the way in this playoff anyway. I don't against a trade re Manu if it brings better player. Same for Tp too. To win champ, it is obvious that the 3 needs to play plus one more v good player at least

[intlspurshk]

tp is not that brilliant by the way in this playoff anyway. I don't against a trade re Manu if it brings better player. Same for Tp too. However,to win champ, it is obvious that the 3 needs to play plus one more v good player at least

[sabar]

Im confused by your logic man, utterly bewildered.

What it comes down to is do you want a player that may spend the rest of his career riding the bench, or do you want to gamble on two young prospects that have potential in the future and possibly present?

It's perpetually injured vs. solid contributions.

And what are you talking about? Do you watch basketball? Did you not see Derrick Rose tear it up in the playoffs, or OJ Mayo, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, Trevor Ariza tear it up on their teams? Imagine if those players were playing next to TIM DUNCAN AND TONY PARKER and being coached by Popavich?

You're just confusing me

Very few athletes actually end up perpetually injured. It makes more sense to take that chance than a bunch of unproven players.

[androck]

Im confused by your logic man, utterly bewildered.

What it comes down to is do you want a player that may spend the rest of his career riding the bench, or do you want to gamble on two young prospects that have potential in the future and possibly present?

It's perpetually injured vs. solid contributions.

And what are you talking about? Do you watch basketball? Did you not see Derrick Rose tear it up in the playoffs, or OJ Mayo, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, Trevor Ariza tear it up on their teams? Imagine if those players were playing next to TIM DUNCAN AND TONY PARKER and being coached by Popavich?

You're just confusing me

I'm with you on this one. I think what ElNono is trying to say is there is no way Young and pick #5 are going to make the Spurs good enough to win the championship next season so our best bet is to hope that Ginobili returns to full health. That being said, I think there is a good enough chance that Ginobili never makes it back to the level he was playing at even in 2007 that the front office needs to listen and consider offers that come in. I definitely wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision, like you said.

[Kori Ellis]

tp is not that brilliant by the way in this playoff anyway. I don't against a trade re Manu if it brings better player. Same for Tp too. However,to win champ, it is obvious that the 3 needs to play plus one more v good player at least

Parker averaged 29 and 7 and shot 55% from the floor in this year's playoffs. I'm not sure he could have done anything else.

Anyway, people aren't defensive about trading Ginobili really (to address the original poster). They are defensive about people making up trades that don't help the Spurs at all... or are so outlandish that the other team would never agree to it.

As Pop said the other day, it's highly unlikely they'd trade Manu. The only scenario I can imagine is if some other team really, really overvalued him and gave up some young studs.

[androck]

Very few athletes actually end up perpetually injured. It makes more sense to take that chance than a bunch of unproven players.

Chris Webber
Grant Hill
Tracy McGrady
Penny Hardaway
Kenyon Martin
Jamal Tinsley
Allan Houston
Jamal Mashburn

Maybe even Dwayne Wade or Gilbert Arenas

[sabar]

People are defensive because the forum is filled with trades that make no sense for anyone involved.

[ElNono]

Im confused by your logic man, utterly bewildered.

What it comes down to is do you want a player that may spend the rest of his career riding the bench, or do you want to gamble on two young prospects that have potential in the future and possibly present?


Forget about the future. We are not rebuilding nor we want to. Once you drill that in your head, we'll start making progress. We want to win now. That means we need seasoned players. We can't work out the jitters of rooks for 2 or 3 seasons.

So the question is then much simpler: do you want to gamble on a legit star that you already have having one or two more good seasons, or do you want to forgo any chance to a championship in the next few years?


It's perpetually injured vs. solid contributions.

Not really. The dilemma really is: healthy star vs prospective contributors, or injured star vs prospective contributors.



And what are you talking about? Do you watch basketball? Did you not see Derrick Rose tear it up in the playoffs, or OJ Mayo, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, Trevor Ariza tear it up on their teams? Imagine if those players were playing next to TIM DUNCAN AND TONY PARKER and being coached by Popavich?

I watch basketball, probably as much if not more than you do.
Rose was pick #1, Mayo was pick #3, Durant was pick #2... all of them on a strong draft classes... which is not the case this season...
And both Granger and Ariza are 4 year pros. Granger's first season in the NBA saw him average 7.5 PPG... second season 13.9...
Ariza came around after he was traded out of Orlando, in his 3rd year in the league... not to mention that today he still only averages 9 PPG...

[ElNono]

I'm with you on this one. I think what ElNono is trying to say is there is no way Young and pick #5 are going to make the Spurs good enough to win the championship next season so our best bet is to hope that Ginobili returns to full health. That being said, I think there is a good enough chance that Ginobili never makes it back to the level he was playing at even in 2007 that the front office needs to listen and consider offers that come in. I definitely wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision, like you said.

Exactly my point. Furthermore, I think not only we need Ginobili back in full health, we also need to see Mahinmi being more than a project, Hill coming around, Mason actually growing up defensively, and somebody besides Ian helping Tim in the middle. So a lot of things have to align to really have a realistic shot.

[Bukefal]

Good post!!

SOme people cant stand the fact that other fans bring up the idea of trading ginobili because they probably became spurs fans, just because of ginobili. So, when their player might leave the spurs, they dont want to! That means they have to be fan of his new club afterwards. They want him to stay with the spurs. For them a spurs without manu is not interesting anymore. they are afraid. They just dont want to personally, so they become so harsh on other fans who consider trading him.

[timvp]

Why is everyone so defensive about Ginobili?

KFU-wXsRhic

[doldrums]

The team without Manu looked pathetic. The fanbase without him will look bad too. That's why he won't be traded.

[urunobili]

Good post!!

SOme people cant stand the fact that other fans bring up the idea of trading ginobili because they probably became spurs fans, just because of ginobili. .

Never saw you until late this season... so that makes you what?

[ambchang]

Because as the Celtics and the Lakers show, you don't win championships by trading one good player for a couple of average players. You trade a few average/bad players for one good player (through collusion).

The Cavs are trying to replicate that with a trade for Shaq.

[Bukefal]

Never saw you until late this season... so that makes you what?

Go on.. tell me.... What does that makes me? I have been a long time Spurs fan, not because of any player, but Spurs fan as a whole. The fact that you saw me until late this season is just that i then found out about the existence of this forum. But, go ahead, you know something i dont.... tell me :lol

Stepped on your toes, truth hurts a bit ay? :toast

[manufan10]

I'm a Manu fan, obviously, but was a Spurs fan long before Tim Duncan arrived. I'm not against trading Manu, but the fact is that his trade value is down right now. The same questions we as fans have means that an NBA organization probably has the same fears, and probably more of them. As fans we are worried that Manu might not be able to rebound to 2005, 2007, or even mid 2008/2009 form. Don't you think an owner/GM would have the same fears? Especially since they would ACTUALLY be losing something if it doesn't go the way they hoped. As of right now there is not a single good trade out there that would make me want to do it, unless it's a Pau Gasol type trade. Like mentioned earlier, people aren't against the thought or idea of trading Manu. Fans, however, are throwing out unrealistic trades that either wouldn't work for one team (usually the team the Spurs would be trading Manu to).

[Agloco]

Not at all. I think you're daydreaming.



I'm still waiting for you to mention which rooks have contributed massively to a championship team in the past 10 years or so... displaying brilliance or not. I guess I have to keep waiting, because I don't see them.



Rookies playing OR sitting on the bench aren't going to keep us in contention either. What do you suggest?

There's some guys out there. Not rookies mind you, but guys with less than 4 years on their resume when they won it.

Parker, Ginobili, Wade, Bryant, Prince, Rondo...... and the list goes on. Yeah yeah, you'll no doubt argue that Ginobili doesn't really count, but isn't the NBA a "different" game as everyone puts it?

I know your discussion centers around "Manu for lottery talent", but it would behoove us to look at all possibilities. There's no harm in daydreaming as you put it.

[ElNono]

There's some guys out there. Not rookies mind you, but guys with less than 4 years on their resume when they won it.

Parker, Ginobili, Wade, Bryant, Prince, Rondo...... and the list goes on. Yeah yeah, you'll no doubt argue that Ginobili doesn't really count, but isn't the NBA a "different" game as everyone puts it?

I know your discussion centers around "Manu for lottery talent", but it would behoove us to look at all possibilities. There's no harm in daydreaming as you put it.

The only one I would argue had a considerable impact and was truly a rookie is Rondo. Then again, he had 3 legitimate all stars around him.
We WILL eventually get down to rebuilding. I don't really think the Spurs are going that route this season.

[Rob123]

Yes, this is my argument. People are acting like this guy has been hurt the past 2, 3 seasons or something. Almost every athlete gets injured at some point in his career, but it doesn't mean he/she is done. A lot of these "trade Manu" psuedo-fans need to start posting somewhere else b/c it's the same thing over and over again. He'll be back whether you guys like it or not...just wait until he starts playing like the 6th man of the year a couple years ago and I am sure you "trade Manu" fans will be on him like Kobe on white women.:flag:

Mind if I borrow your crystal ball? once I know the future with certainty like you obviously do I can start calling myself a real fan and stop annoying you with logic and reason.

[manufan10]

Mind if I borrow your crystal ball? once I know the future with certainty like you obviously do I can start calling myself a real fan and stop annoying you with logic and reason.

He has shown that he is capable of returning to form. Before the all-star break he had a few string of games where he averaged almost 30 ppg. After coming back after the time off he showed that he still has what it takes to be the player he was in 2007. It's unfortunate that this other injury happened, but injuries happen.

[ffadicted]

As people mentioned, show me a reasonable trade for ginobili that would make the spurs better, and I'll stop calling you guys idiots.

Until then... you're an idiot

[ducks]

hedo for manu

spurs do not need manu for clutch free throws
tp is the most clutch spur

[Bukefal]

As people mentioned, show me a reasonable trade for ginobili that would make the spurs better, and I'll stop calling you guys idiots.

Until then... you're an idiot

OK, but for you there probably is no reasonable trade, since you dont want him to go, so thats impossible

[ffadicted]

OK, but for you there probably is no reasonable trade, since you dont want him to go, so thats impossible

No, it's just a fact. People in the "trade-ginobili" bandwagon are mostly going on the basis that two average players > one great player. Even worse, the "nick young + 5th" bandwagon is going on the basis that one ok player + rookie > a great player.

Honestly, Ginobili in his rookie season was worth more then Nick Young and the 5th, or probably any other deal NBA teams are willing to make. Being injured has not lowered that value much at all. In fact, a 30+ shooting guard just won the 'chip and Finals MVP last night, if you weren't watching.

Ginobili is a winner and extremely proud. There is no way he comes back with less then 100% effort to prove himself and convince the spurs to extend his contract. He loves the team and the city, and he loves basketball, and winning even more. This guy is extremely rare, and anyone who has followed the spurs at least since his rookie season would agree without a doubt to everything above.

And for the record, Caron Butler and the 5th is NOT a reasonable trade guys lol. That does nothing for Washington

[Rob123]

No, it's just a fact. People in the "trade-ginobili" bandwagon are mostly going on the basis that two average players > one great player. Even worse, the "nick young + 5th" bandwagon is going on the basis that one ok player + rookie > a great player.

Honestly, Ginobili in his rookie season was worth more then Nick Young and the 5th, or probably any other deal NBA teams are willing to make.

And for the record, Caron Butler and the 5th is NOT a reasonable trade guys lol. That does nothing for Washington

Wait... You missed the point of the thread and I'm the idiot?

What's Ginobilis trade value? Will he be sixth man next year? Will he have any explosiveness that he relies heavily on?

If Ginobilis going to be a gimp next year, and spend most of it on the bench, then trading him for anyone that will see some floor time and score a few points will make this team better.

Sorry... looks like you're the one lacking in the brain power department.

Look at Arenas, One knee problem at 25 and he's missed two and a half years.

How's Ginobili going to recover from injuries to both ankles at 32? I wont pretend to know unlike you.

[ffadicted]

Wait... You missed the point of the thread and I'm the idiot?

What's Ginobilis trade value? Will he be sixth man next year? Will he have any explosiveness that he relies heavily on?

If Ginobilis going to be a gimp next year, and spend most of it on the bench, then trading him for anyone that will see some floor time and score a few points will make this team better.

Sorry... looks like you're the one lacking in the brain power department.

Look at Arenas, One knee problem at 25 and he's missed two and a half years.

How's Ginobili going to recover from injuries to both ankles at 32? I wont pretend to know unlike you.

Ginobili, his teammates, the coaching staff and doctors all expect him to make a full recovery after having this entire summer off, and you still havn't showed anything close to a decent trade that makes us better after parting with him, not to mention his expiring contract. Plus, name off anyone that can be as clutch and deadly as Ginobili, be known as a 'bad boy' to the best player in the world, and score 30 points against a heavily favored for the title Lakers team in the WCF on just one leg, all just one season ago.

Anything else?

[Mel_13]

If Ginobilis going to be a gimp next year, and spend most of it on the bench, then trading him for anyone that will see some floor time and score a few points will make this team better.


Here's the thing. I don't know, you don't know, the doctors don't know, the Spurs don't know, and even Manu doesn't know how well, how much, or how long he will be able to play next year and in the years to come. We will all find out only after he has actually played, or failed in the attempt.

The uncertainty over Manu's condition has lowered his current trade value to little more than the value of his expiring contract.

If you are truly applying logic to the situation you will understand the next point.

If Manu is broken, then his value as an expiring contract will still be there to be used at trade deadline. The Spurs would also retain the option to allow his contract to expire and use the cap space to acquire other players.

If he returns to health, then his value will increase significantly and can be used in a trade at the deadline or next summer as part of a sign and trade. Or he could be signed to an extension.

Where is the logic in trading an asset when it is nearly at its lowest possible value, when waiting can result in a great increase in value and only a very small decrease in value? If the Spurs wait, they still have all their options available (trade, extend, or use cap space). Why give up all that flexibility to make the trade now when his value is low?

[androck]

Here's the thing. I don't know, you don't know, the doctors don't know, the Spurs don't know, and even Manu doesn't know how well, how much, or how long he will be able to play next year and in the years to come. We will all find out only after he has actually played, or failed in the attempt.

The uncertainty over Manu's condition has lowered his current trade value to little more than the value of his expiring contract.

If you are truly applying logic to the situation you will understand the next point.

If Manu is broken, then his value as an expiring contract will still be there to be used at trade deadline. The Spurs would also retain the option to allow his contract to expire and use the cap space to acquire other players.

If he returns to health, then his value will increase significantly and can be used in a trade at the deadline or next summer as part of a sign and trade. Or he could be signed to an extension.

Where is the logic in trading an asset when it is nearly at its lowest possible value, when waiting can result in a great increase in value and only a very small decrease in value? If the Spurs wait, they still have all their options available (trade, extend, or use cap space). Why give up all that flexibility to make the trade now when his value is low?

Very well said! I agree with everything in this post although I still think the front office should listen to offers and shop around to see if we can get a crazy deal for Manu. Most people on this forum are either of the "under no circumstances do we trade Ginobili" or "trade Ginobili for a bag of chips" line of thought when the reasonable position is somewhere in the middle. Manu's value as a trade asset has never been lower than it is right now since he's entered the league and his value as an expiring contract will remain through next season. If he is truly too injured to continue in the NBA, the Spurs can trade him to anyone looking for an expiring contract and potentially pick up an All-Star in a salary dump. With the economy the way it is, I'm sure there are going to be some deals similar to the Pau trade where team owners are dumping payroll.

[SequSpur]

He's a great player, I love the guy, I only have two jerseys, Ginobili being one of them. I dont understand all this hate on people that are suggesting he be traded. Unless you have a crystal ball and can tell with certainty he's going to be 100% next year, trading him for two young promising players is something that has to be considered.

If Ginobili is 100% next year he is definitely far more valuable to our team than anyone we could pick up through trade and or draft. A 100% ginobili is a dangerous thing.

However, it's been a while since we've seen Ginobili at 100%, and 100% Ginobili these days is no longer 2005 form. Seeing what's out there for him is just good business, why put all our eggs in one basket and just pray for him to return to form?

Whether he stays or goes, i hate seeing people called fake fans because they suggest a trade.

Choosing loyalty over reason often times leaves you holding the bag in the end.

well that was nice....

it's because spurs fans are fuckin stupid that's why.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Nah, Im quite happy has a bandwagon fan of the spurs. 15 years strong and counting. Maybe one day i'll be as cool you, and be considered a real fan.

What's everyone on this board going to be saying if Ginobili doesn't come back to form next season? What if he goes down again and we're stuck holding the bag with damaged goods.

Now's our opportunity. We can choose to keep him, and pray. Or take advantage of the value he has now, and pray. Either way it's bad business to not first consider both options heavily. The path we choose will most likely impact our team for years to come.


Glad to hear you're happy as a Spurs bandwagoner. What those of us who are positive about Manu feel/think is we're willing to give him a chance to prove it on the court in game condition(s). He has been too damn instrumental in 3 of our Championships. I think Pop and the other coaches/trainers will bring him back into the mix at a slower pace this time so his ankles have a real chance at building back up their resistance. Many of us who have played team sports have been injured at one time or another and sometimes got back on the field/court too soon and were re-injured. But, we worked hard at rehabilitating and ended up coming back stronger than before.

As to him not coming back healthy is a chance we take. Any team that would trade for him would have a return clause in case he didn't pass their physical. As to the constant praying part, I'm sure fans of other teams are praying they will one day win a championship as well. However, I don't think God much cares about sports. Otherwise teams from Notre Dame, Baylor, TCU, SMU, etc., would be National Champs in every sport every year.

As to you one day hoping to be as cool as me??? My friend, I'm smack dab in the heart of Texas and it is hot as Hell. Oh, you mean the other kind of 'cool'! Hmmmmm, that might take a lot of practice!!! :lol:lol:lol

[mookie2001]

god doesnt give a shit about protestants we all know that

[SouthTexasRancher]

god doesnt give a shit about protestants we all know that


But, last time I looked, Notre Dame was Catholic.

[mookie2001]

they just suck

[SouthTexasRancher]

they just suck


amen to that...:lol

[underdawg]

Anyway, people aren't defensive about trading Ginobili really (to address the original poster). They are defensive about people making up trades that don't help the Spurs at all... or are so outlandish that the other team would never agree to it.

I'm sure I'll catch crap for this - it's expected. I think there are two types of Spurs fans - there's the one that sees the Spurs just like every other NBA team in that the team's sole purpose is to win a championship at whatever cost and that's completely understandable. The other fan is one that appreciates the fact that the Spurs are a small market team and they have been overacheiving with "no-name" players. These fans find a kindship to those players just as the Spurs are a "no-name" team. The Spurs have had a lot of success with their "Big 3," but they're really not a team that will appease the fan that wants the Spurs to produce each year as a business like the Lakers, Celtics, etc. Instead of wondering why our FO doesn't make "big moves," I think a realistic approach is to understand that our only chance to be competitive is to rely on players like Manu. Most will agree that we can't get good value for him, so why are we pretending like we can? As Spurs fans, we overvalue Spurs players as we should but at some point we have to be realistic in that other teams don't value Spurs players like we do.

[kace]

a lot of spurstalk members are so defensive just because they're more manu's fans than spurs fans. indeed, most of them will quit on the spurs as soon as manu isn't there anymore. and you could bet safely that some of them prayed for the spurs to lose these PO because they didn't want to see the spurs winning without manu.


that being said, there might be some defensive fans about that because honestly, manu healthy at 10 M is a no brainer. indeed, manu healthy and at his best IS a no brainer, even at 15 M.

i guess the question is will he be at his best. and i don't really see anything preventing him to be healthy this year. We could see a great manu. i'm confident.

if not, the crual truth will be three straight spurs PO wasted by manu. he doesn't deserve it.

[Rob123]

Ginobili, his teammates, the coaching staff and doctors all expect him to make a full recovery after having this entire summer off, and you still havn't showed anything close to a decent trade that makes us better after parting with him, not to mention his expiring contract. Plus, name off anyone that can be as clutch and deadly as Ginobili, be known as a 'bad boy' to the best player in the world, and score 30 points against a heavily favored for the title Lakers team in the WCF on just one leg, all just one season ago.

Anything else?

Dude, you're absolutely right, if Ginobili is fully recovered, there's few trades that would benefit us.

The whole point of this post though is that we dont know if Ginobilis coming back.

You seriously believe the PR that the team is saying? Of course they're going to say Ginobili is going to make a full recovery and be amazing, why diminish his value even more?

The WHOLE point of this post if you read the beginning is not that I have a trade proposal for Ginobili, but that suggesting one does not make you a fake spurs fan.

As a Fan or Owner of this team, everyone should have legit questions about Ginobilis upcoming season, and suggesting he be traded is not taboo.

Like I said, thanks for calling me an idiot but you missed the boat sir. You argued with me over something I agreed with you on, just because I suggested something happen to your precious Ginobili.

Anything else?

[mookie2001]

a lot of spurstalk members are so defensive just because they're more manu's fans than spurs fans
yes, the ones from the shit country known as argentina

the only reason i can stand french fans is because parker is better than ginobili

[TMTTRIO]

The whole point of this post though is that we dont know if Ginobilis coming back.
We could use it the other way around too. How do we know that Manu's not going to come back healthy. It's just going to be a wait and see thing.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

yes, the ones from the shit country known as argentina

the only reason i can stand french fans is because parker is better than ginobili

Why don't you go fuck yourself you little prick? Argentina might be a shitty place, but I'll take it and us Argies over an ignorant, bitter piece of shit like you any day.

I'm REALLY getting fucking tired with all the Argie bashing going on around here. It didn't used to be like this. This bullshit is going entirely too fucking far. I'm tired of coming into this forum and feeling my nationality insulted. I've got a thick skin (you can ask whottt if you like), but enough is enough.

All I want to know is where are all the anti-generalization cruzaders now? you know, all those that only jump up when they feel identified by anti-american rhetoric, but are nowhere to be found when its an American bashing anyone else...

Honestly, sometimes I feel like saying "fuck this forum and all its bullshit!"

[tim_duncan_fan]

The Church of Manu needs to calm the fuck down and be Spurs fans.


The team is going to exist after Manu is done; it should act accordingly.


The only untouchable people in all of Spursdom present and past are Tim Duncan and Dave Robinson. We've got none of this shit without those two. Hell, Duncan probably would have been a beast had he never met Robinson. The same can not be said for Parker and Manu. They got better by playing with Tim and still benefit by playing with Tim (except for one of them, who doesn't do much playing lately).


The only person on the team who should have a church is Tim Duncan.

If the Wizards are stupid enough to trade a young 2-guard with star potential and a #5 for an old 2-guard whose best years are done, then we may as well take advantage of them. That goes double if they'll give us an all-star in place of or alongside the young'n.



Now, it if comes out that a trade like this isn't on the table, then it's another story entirely. However, I will be most pissed if it comes to light that we could have started to rebuild while keeping Tony and Tim at the same time.



Now, having said that, flame me if it makes you feel better.


I know I am making sense.

[mookie2001]

if i wouldve said mexico or poland was shit nobodys chode would swell, but we dont have any superfragile mexicans or polandos on the spurs who keep fucking us over year after year
its not personal personal its just i cant stand manu or his herds of argie apologists

so if you want please go, i promise not to post on any bahiablanca soccer forums

[SteelerNation]

The Spurs cannot roll the dice and hope Manu is the player of old anymore. Tim Duncan is to important to that franchise for them to roll the dice and hope they dont crap out....once again. Especially when there are 2 guards out there for the taking that can push the Spurs back to level of play they have grown accustom to. You have the Wizards willing to part with butler, the Bulls leaving Gordon unrestricted, the Nets always willing to move Carter, Houston wanting to move McGrady, and Milwaukee always having Redd on the trading block. Now I know Carter isnt any younger in age...McGrady is injury prone..but the other guys are solid and these are just a few. Hell, Gordon had a monster series against a very tough Boston team and pushed them to 7 games in the 1st round. Imagine if that kid had guys like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker next to him. The point is there are plenty of SG's out there available that are more than able to pick up where Manu left off. Its just a question if the Spurs want to pull the trigger.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

if i wouldve said mexico or poland was shit nobodys chode would swell, but we dont have any superfragile mexicans or polandos on the spurs who keep fucking us over year after year
its not personal personal its just i cant stand manu or his herds of argie apologists

so if you want please go, i promise not to post on any bahiablanca soccer forums

fuck you man, ginobili gave us three rings :flag:

And the only times he's been hurt, we've lost in the playoffs anyways so having him wouldn't have mattered :flag:

[Manu-of-steel]

if i wouldve said mexico or poland was shit nobodys chode would swell, but we dont have any superfragile mexicans or polandos on the spurs who keep fucking us over year after year
its not personal personal its just i cant stand manu or his herds of argie apologists

so if you want please go, i promise not to post on any bahiablanca soccer forums
im not from argentina. but you write here as if you're God's gift to spurs fan. Bullshit.

[Capt Bringdown]

How often do 32 year old guards come back from chronic ankle injuries that have kept them out of 2 straight playoffs?

We shouldn't be in a position where we depend on such thin hopes.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

if i wouldve said mexico or poland was shit nobodys chode would swell, but we dont have any superfragile mexicans or polandos on the spurs who keep fucking us over year after year
its not personal personal its just i cant stand manu or his herds of argie apologists


First of all, I don't consider myself a Manu apologist, though I'm sure your dumb ass already pegged me as one because of the little flag on the side there. I couldn't give a flying fuck about how you feel towards Ginobili, to be honest. It doesn't affect me one bit.

Now when you start dissing Argies because of some bullshit hate you've managed to accumulate over the years, then that shit bothers me. You need to shut the fuck up or address your insults more pointedly. I, like a lot of other Argies, haven't done shit to you, so I don't give a crap what you hate or don't hate, learn NOT to generalize.


so if you want please go, i promise not to post on any bahiablanca soccer forumsGo. Fuck. Yourself!

[MmP]

Fuck Man
I hate people saying Manu's 2005 season was his last good one phisically..
Come on. 2006/2007? If he doesn't stound out doesn't mean he's not healthy..

Get off the fcking overhype the injury thing tree people. Cut it out, he'll be fine.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

well obviously his brain was injured in the 2006 playoffs, at least in the closing seconds of regulation of game 7

[MmP]

Yep, especially for that dumb three pointer he hit at the closing moments

[Man In Black]

There is some fucked up reasoning going on here.
First of all, the fact that Ducks has a platform doesn't mean you have to listen to him. He's GAY for Tony Parker and that's not code for anything.

Now, whoever is the loser that brought up this list: Watch my adjustments...pay attention!!!!

Chris Webber-Microfracture Surgery
Grant Hill-Microfracture Surgery
Tracy McGrady-Microfracture Surgery
Penny Hardaway-Microfracture Surgery
Kenyon Martin-Microfracture Surgery
Jamal Tinsley
Allan Houston-Microfracture Surgery
Jamal Mashburn-Microfracture Surgery
Dwayne Wade
Gilbert Arenas-Microfracture Surgery

So...did Ginobili get Microfracture Surgery? NO MF'ers...he did not. RECOGNIZE!


Now, I know none of you bitches have a medical degree or even Athletic Trainer Certification...So how can any of you predict that he isn't going to come back healthy? You'll say last 2 years have shown...I'll say that he followed EVERYTHING the Spurs doctors and Training team, to the letter and that his condition was a freak event. I wouldn't bet against Ginobili the same way I wouldn't bet against LaDanian Tomlinson. Both of these guys got a lot to prove this year, and while doing it....there will be hell to pay. I pity the fools that try to get in their way.

[ivanfromwestwood]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/christinaorologio/mrt.jpg

[TDMVPDPOY]

this is a business

no one is bigger than the club

tim duncan is no exception either, the club will do what it has to do to make it competitive once duncan is gone....

i dont want to see this ball club end up like the bulls after jordan left or the knicks after trading away ewing.....10-20yrs of bs baskbetball

[VivaPopovich]

i'm not going to call you a fake fan. but it's not very spurs-like to dump the loyal talent that got you where you are in return for rookies. that's definitely not something popovich would do. we can start molding young talent (mahinmi/hill) AND keep manu.

i do think out of fairness manu should agree to a paycut the way tim did. his health issues are a legitimate reason to take a little away so we can give some more to prospective talent.

[Man In Black]

Some of you bitches are irksome. The Spurs have to do what they can to be both competitive and sell tickets. San Antonio does not have the luxury to have multiple losing seasons. The market, especially in this economy, can't be sustained without the Spurs being contenders. If you bitches think that Nick Young and the #5 pick in what is probably the WEAKEST draft in memory will help the Spurs more than keeping the Big 3 intact plus adding some key role players, then I can't help you bitches...because truthfully...y'all are beyond help due to your idiocy.

[ffadicted]

Some of you bitches are irksome. The Spurs have to do what they can to be both competitive and sell tickets. San Antonio does not have the luxury to have multiple losing seasons. The market, especially in this economy, can't be sustained without the Spurs being contenders. If you bitches think that Nick Young and the #5 pick in what is probably the WEAKEST draft in memory will help the Spurs more than keeping the Big 3 intact plus adding some key role players, then I can't help you bitches...because truthfully...y'all are beyond help due to your idiocy.....

.... bitches :toast

[Rob123]

I'm gonna be self serving and bump my own thread.

[ElNono]

LOL Nick Young

[vander]

I was saying we needed to "sell high" with Ginobili a year and a half ago already, now that everyone else is starting to realize it, it's too late.

:toast

[HarlemHeat37]

Yes, you're a genius, you're so unique..

his value is higher right now than it was a year and a half ago..

[vander]

his value is higher right now than it was a year and a half ago..

:rollin:rollin:rollin

[HarlemHeat37]

A year and a half ago he was heavily struggling with ankle injuries for the entire playoffs and couldn't even play for the majority of the Lakers series..

Right now, he's a big expiring contract with the same injury risk as he had at the time..his ability isn't much different than it was at that time, he's still a great player when healthy..

I'm pretty sure I would trade for the latter..

[mookie2001]

ROFL watch this

plus Manu doesnt even believe in God!
all his catholic fans praying for him and hes not even a believer


haha thats probably why hes always hurt or injured

maybe he should say a prayer for his fragile ass

[Capt Bringdown]

KFU-wXsRhic

Unfortunately "He's Manu Ginobili" means something entirely different now.