tim duncan's legacy

[robert1886]

all this talk about kobe and where he stands all time with the greats...where do you see timmy? top 10,15,20?

[HarlemHeat37]

easily top 10, not really arguable IMO..

[nhan]

Top 10.

[RC's Boss]

7 or 8

[robert1886]

i would say top 10 ten as well...i was watching espn radio talk earlier and only one guy had timmy in the top 10 at 10

[SsKSpurs21]

Tim is usually referred to as a top 10 player of all time:

i have seen him ranked anywhere from 7-10. mostly in the 8-9 range though. never seen anyone rank him below 10.

[Spurs Brazil]

Top 10

[ducks]

who gives a crap
the media does not
because he does not rape people

[HarlemHeat37]

who gives a crap
the media does not
because he does not rape people

sadly, this is true..

if Duncan ranted all over the media and made a tape insulting Matt Bonner and asking for him to be shipped out, he would be loved..

if Timmy raped a young woman in Colorado, including doing some kinky shit, the media would love him..

following that, if Timmy told the cops that one of his teammates has had similar problems but pays the girls off, he would be loved by the media..

if Timmy quit on his team in a game 7, he would be loved..

what a strange society we live in..

[HarlemHeat37]

i would say top 10 ten as well...i was watching espn radio talk earlier and only one guy had timmy in the top 10 at 10

you should know better than to listen to ESPN bro..

[robert1886]

you should know better than to listen to ESPN bro.. haha yea i know man just thought i throw those dummies stupid ideas out there i just wanted the opinion of my fellow spurs fans

[Thomas82]

Right now, I have him at 7, and another ring would put him in the top 5 IMO.

[DMX7]

Top 1 :)

[CubanSucks]

sadly, this is true..

if Duncan ranted all over the media and made a tape insulting Matt Bonner and asking for him to be shipped out, he would be loved..

if Timmy raped a young woman in Colorado, including doing some kinky shit, the media would love him..

following that, if Timmy told the cops that one of his teammates has had similar problems but pays the girls off, he would be loved by the media..

if Timmy quit on his team in a game 7, he would be loved..

what a strange society we live in..

But who would do such a thing?! OH SHIT, I forgot, kobe pulled this shit a couple years ago! Keep living blindly laker fans. Your star doesn't give a FUCK about your city

[ambchang]

According to ESPN, he is probably a little lower than LeBron James and Dwayne Wade.

[Thomas82]

According to ESPN, he is probably a little lower than LeBron James and Dwayne Wade.

And has more rings than both of them combined.

[samikeyp]

He is the best ever......




forward from the Virgin Islands named Tim. :D


Seriously, I put him 6th behind Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Magic

[SpursWench21]

:flag:top 10 easily

This kind of reminds me of the All-Star game (not too sure, but i think it was in NY in 2002 maybe? someone can look it up) where they had the top 50 players of all time.....AND TIMMY WAS ALREADY THERE! Im not sure what number he was, but it was awesome to see him regarded so highly while he was still pretty young.

If i ever met Tim Duncan, this is a potential dream scenario of how it would go down:

Me: It is honor to meet you Mr. Duncan.
Tim: Thank you. (then, considering this thread, he asks) James, do you think ESPN and the media will ever consider me a top 10 player of all time?
Me: Who gives a shit what those assholes think. You're so money and you dont even know it! Now lets go hang and play some D&D....perhaps a little 2K9?
Tim: Do you have a man crush on me or something?
Me: .........is that bad?
Tim: All good buddy. Ill call Bruce too.

[manufan10]

He is the best ever......




forward from the Virgin Islands named Tim. :D


Seriously, I put him 6th behind Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Magic

I think that's a good spot too.

[elbamba]

Best PF of all time, to me this makes him in the top 5.

[Mike Smrek]

Easily Top 8, possibly higher depending on your standards.

I go Bird at 6 (one of the 2 or 3 best all-around offensive players and competitors I've ever seen) and Shaq at 7 (more dominant, higher peak), but you could make a solid case for Duncan over both. Duncan is the better two-way player and has more rings than Bird, and he was more consistent and dependable than Shaq. So those are all pick-ems depending on your individual standards.

I can't put him over anybody higher than that -- Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic and Russell. Russell maybe -- maybe -- but it's just too hard for me to ignore 11 championships and five MVPS.

Plus, I believe he provided even more of the defensive and intangible impact that so often goes overlooked with Duncan. If people can do that with somebody like Tim, who they've seen playing regularly on TV for more than a decade, there's no telling how underrated someone like Russell with only grainy film clips to study.

[Stringer_Bell]

Top 10 of All Time. I wouldn't bother too much with where he ends up there, everyone in the Top 10 represents the best the NBA has to offer in some way or another.

I was thinking about a comment that Gasol made on how European players have something in their game that Americans don't, and I agree. I haven't seen many NBA players actually playing and excelling at NBA Basketball...they carry over the street mentality and style that never really allows them to get anywhere. Tim Duncan and his career is the perfect representation of NBA basketball...he mastered the rules and strategy of the game, and he's got the resume to prove it. He's always been a quiet leader w/ solid stats that won't stop fighting to get the W for his team. He hasn't had to whore himself out to advertisers or complain to get his point across. He's never tried to start trouble or tear anyone down. And, if his lack of "star power" isn't enough to be in the Top 10, then it's not a Top 10 list I care about.

:flag:

[Thomas82]

:flag:top 10 easily

This kind of reminds me of the All-Star game (not too sure, but i think it was in NY in 2002 maybe? someone can look it up) where they had the top 50 players of all time.....AND TIMMY WAS ALREADY THERE! Im not sure what number he was, but it was awesome to see him regarded so highly while he was still pretty young.




I think you got Tim mixed up with Shaq. And that was the 1997 All-Star Game in Cleveland, where they had the top 50 players of all-time, and Shaq was named to that team in only his 5th season in the NBA.

[Thomas82]

Best PF of all time, to me this makes him in the top 5.

No argument from me, it make sense that the top 5 spots should go to the best ever at each position.

[SteelerNation]

Tim Duncan is top 10 without a doubt. Kobe needs to win another on his own before he can get there. If he can get a repeat next year with another Finals MVP. He'll be top 10 as well.

[Ditty]

1.Jordan
2.Duncan
3:Chamberlain
4:Jabbar
5:Russel

[Galileo]

all this talk about kobe and where he stands all time with the greats...where do you see timmy? top 10,15,20?

Top 3 to 5.

More accomplishements:

Jordan
Jabbar

About Equal

Magic
Bill Russell

Ahead of

Bird
Shaq
Chamberlain
Mailman
Pettit
West
Baylor
Olajuwon
Cousy
Havlicek
Oscar
Kobe
Sam Jones

[Bukefal]

Top 3 to 5.

More accomplishements:

Jordan
Jabbar

About Equal

Magic
Bill Russell

Ahead of

Bird
Shaq
Chamberlain
Mailman
Pettit
West
Baylor
Olajuwon
Cousy
Havlicek
Oscar
Kobe
Sam Jones

Tim ahead of wilt, bird and magic? No way!
But he is a top 10 for sure

[samikeyp]

How does Timmy have more accomplishments than Russell (10 titles) and Magic (5)?

[Thomas82]

Tim ahead of wilt, bird and magic? No way!
But he is a top 10 for sure

I would put him slightly ahead of Bird. I think another ring would put him right there with Magic, and Wilt, there will never be another Wilt. IMO, he is the GOAT.

[howbouthemspurs]

top 5 easily

[NewcastleKEG]

Right now, I have him at 7, and another ring would put him in the top 5 IMO.
Agreed, at the moment I think you still have to rank Shaq and his ability to get 3 different teams to the Finals 1 spot higher. But with another ring Duncan moves into the Top 5

TOP 5 Always
MJ
Magic
Russell

Other Candidates
Wilt
Kareem
Bird

Next Group
Duncan
Shaq
Robertson
Pettit
West
Kobe
Olajuwon

[NewcastleKEG]

they changed the rules of basketball because of wilt
All those COUNTLESS loses to Bill and the Celtics takes some of the shine off to me. It's not like Shaq wouldn't have been able to accomplish the same in that era

[crc21209]

TOP 10 easily.

[raspsa]

If I was putting together the greatest team ever, these would be my players:

Russell - C
Duncan - PF
Bird - SF
Jordan - SG
Magic - PG

I am a big fan of defensive basketball hence my choice of Russell. Incredibly high BB IQ, ultra athletic and the fiercest competitor and leader ever (or at least equal to MJ).

Otherwise my choice would be kareem if I wanted more offense but even w/o him I don't think scoring points would pose a problem.

[Thomas82]

they changed the rules of basketball because of wilt

That's why I think he is the best of all-time. He didn't have much of a supporting cast either until he went to the Lakers and his role changed. Oh, and who can forget a 45-year old Wilt just flat out abusing Magic Johnson in 1 on 1, and in Lakers practices? Magic even brings it up from time to time.

[Nathan Explosion]

If I was putting together the greatest team ever, these would be my players:

Russell - C
Duncan - PF
Bird - SF
Jordan - SG
Magic - PG

I am a big fan of defensive basketball hence my choice of Russell. Incredibly high BB IQ, ultra athletic and the fiercest competitor and leader ever (or at least equal to MJ).

Otherwise my choice would be kareem if I wanted more offense but even w/o him I don't think scoring points would pose a problem.

I'd put Wilt ahead of Russell. Everyone who knows anything about the era always picks Wilt ahead of Russellbecause they know that Russell beat Wilt because Bill had vastly superior teams. If you want defense, the stat keeper for the 76ers (who's the most respected stat guy in the NBA) claims that Wilt blocked 20 shots or more in quite a few games. His rebounding was off the charts. If you want offense, how does 50 ppg for a season sound, including a 100 point game.

If you want an athlete, how does a college high jump champion sound?

Wilt was by far the greatest big man ever.

Duncan would be Top 10 ahead of Shaq. Duncan has a higher winning percentage in the regular season and the postseason than Shaq does.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090522/part2&sportCat=nba

Check the chart, about halfway down.

[VivaPopovich]

by the time his career is over, he'll probably be #8 after..

cousy
russell
chamberlain
kareem
magic
pippen
jordan

but if he can get 7 more rings he'll be tied with bill russell at the top =)

[raspsa]

I'd put Wilt ahead of Russell. Everyone who knows anything about the era always picks Wilt ahead of Russellbecause they know that Russell beat Wilt because Bill had vastly superior teams. If you want defense, the stat keeper for the 76ers (who's the most respected stat guy in the NBA) claims that Wilt blocked 20 shots or more in quite a few games. His rebounding was off the charts. If you want offense, how does 50 ppg for a season sound, including a 100 point game.

If you want an athlete, how does a college high jump champion sound?

Wilt was by far the greatest big man ever.

Duncan would be Top 10 ahead of Shaq. Duncan has a higher winning percentage in the regular season and the postseason than Shaq does.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090522/part2&sportCat=nba

Check the chart, about halfway down.

Wilt was more imposing physically but psychologically he was vulnerable. I think his ego would be a problem in a team of superstars I described. He was not a team-oriented player..not until his later years with the lakers when he concentrated on defense and rebounding. Nope, I still favor Russell because I think he would make his teammates better. Wilt would most probably be a distraction.

[Nathan Explosion]

Wilt was more imposing physically but psychologically he was vulnerable. I think his ego would be a problem in a team of superstars I described. He was not a team-oriented player..not until his later years with the lakers when he concentrated on defense and rebounding. Nope, I still favor Russell because I think he would make his teammates better. Wilt would most probably be a distraction.

I think Wilt knew how to be a good teammate, he just did what he had to to make his team the best it could be. He followed up his 50 ppg season by leading the league in assists the next year.

[Galileo]

How does Timmy have more accomplishments than Russell (10 titles) and Magic (5)?

The four greatest accomplishments for an NBA player are:

rings
MVPs (both regular season and Finals)
1st-team All-NBA team (this award goes back to before there was even an NBA)

If you add it up, Tim has 18 of these, more than everyone else except MJ (27), Jabbar (24), Magic, and Russell.

Tim had 18 if these in his first 10 seasons, something NO ONE has done before.

Russell has 19 and Magic 20.

But Tim is not done yet. He barely missed out on first team this season, by 5 meager points to Dirk, and he had the award wrapped up by midseason, with only an injury costing him. The same thing happened to Tim in 2006, when he was edged out by LeBron, because Tim was injured the scond half.

[birdy219]

Actually someone on BSPN said that Timmy is the only one of the three who is the best ever at his position. He said that kobe and shaq were all time greats, BUT not THE best at their positions like Timmy is.:bking:bling:worthy:

So if you look at it from a position view, then Timmy is top 5 which is amazing. I am going to cry like a baby when he retires. :cry

[samikeyp]

The four greatest accomplishments for an NBA player are:

rings
MVPs (both regular season and Finals)
1st-team All-NBA team (this award goes back to before there was even an NBA)

If you add it up, Tim has 18 of these, more than everyone else except MJ (27), Jabbar (24), Magic, and Russell.

Tim had 18 if these in his first 10 seasons, something NO ONE has done before.

Russell has 19 and Magic 20.

But Tim is not done yet. He barely missed out on first team this season, by 5 meager points to Dirk, and he had the award wrapped up by midseason, with only an injury costing him. The same thing happened to Tim in 2006, when he was edged out by LeBron, because Tim was injured the scond half.


Do you believe Duncan is better than Bill Russell?

Also, isn't it a little unfair to Russell that you name among your most important accomplishments, something that he had no chance at because it didn't exist at the time of his career except for his last season?

[samikeyp]

actually someone on bspn said that timmy is the only one of the three who is the best ever at his position. He said that kobe and shaq were all time greats, but not the best at their positions like timmy is.:bking:bling:worthy:

So if you look at it from a position view, then timmy is top 5 which is amazing. I am going to cry like a baby when he retires. :cry

+1

[duncan228]

I am going to cry like a baby when he retires. :cry

I try not to think about it. I can't imagine not watching him play.

[Galileo]

So then, by your logic, Duncan is better than Bill Russell?

Also, isn't it a little unfair to Russell that you name among your most important accomplishments, something that he had no chance at because it didn't exist at the time of his career except for his last season?

Better than Russell? Why not?

Duncan was taller and had a better offensive game. Duncan has longer arms and is a much better free throw shooter. Duncan has a better outside shot and better bank shot. Duncan did not have as good of teammates. Russell had top 50 players for teammates, including Cousy, Sam Jones, Havlicek, and Bill Sharman, plus other hall-of-famers like Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinson, Bailey Howell, KC Jones, Clyde Lovellette.

Russell: 4 top 50s, and 9 HoFers
Duncan: 1 top 50 (DRob), and 2 Hofers (assuming Manu and Parker make it)

Also, winning a title in a league with 30 teams means you beat 29 teams.

Russell beat 7 teams for his titles in his 8-team league.

4 x 29 = 116

11 x 7 = 77

Duncan > Russell

[samikeyp]

Better than Russell? Why not?

Duncan was taller and had a better offensive game. Duncan has longer arms and is a much better free throw shooter. Duncan has a better outside shot and better bank shot. Duncan did not have as good of teammates. Russell had top 50 players for teammates, including Cousy, Sam Jones, Havlicek, and Bill Sharman, plus other hall-of-famers like Frank Ramsey, Tom Heinson, Bailey Howell, KC Jones, Clyde Lovellette.

Russell: 4 top 50s, and 9 HoFers
Duncan: 1 top 50 (DRob), and 2 Hofers (assuming Manu and Parker make it)

Also, winning a title in a league with 30 teams means you beat 29 teams.

Russell beat 7 teams for his titles in his 8-team league.

4 x 29 = 116

11 x 7 = 77

Duncan > Russell

Russell had less teams to work with but that only made it tougher because everyone was familiar with everyone else and the talent pool was much deeper. Plus Russell didn't have the advantages in travel and medical technologies today's players have.

While I am a huge Duncan fan, IMO Russell was better.

Doesn't matter though because, they played different positions so its kind of a moot point anyway. I will say that each is the best at his position. Each player redefined his position.

1 thing I am a little confused though.

the whole 4 X 29 = 116
I am guessing 4 titles and 29 teams, what is the 116?

[Galileo]

Russell had less teams to work with but that only made it tougher because everyone was familiar with everyone else and the talent pool was much deeper. Plus Russell didn't have the advantages in travel and medical technologies today's players have.

While I am a huge Duncan fan, IMO Russell was better.

Doesn't matter though because, they played different positions so its kind of a moot point anyway. I will say that each is the best at his position. Each player redefined his position.

1 thing I am a little confused though.

the whole 4 X 29 = 116
I am guessing 4 titles and 29 teams, what is the 116?

Duncan defeated more teams for his 4 titles than Russell did for his 11 titles.

[samikeyp]

Duncan defeated more teams for his 4 titles than Russell did for his 11 titles.

Duncan defeated 116 teams? :)


Which goes back to my point about the talent pool. The number of teams doesn't make it tougher when more than half those teams are weaker. One thing that Duncan has had to do which makes it tougher is longer seasons and post seasons.

[Galileo]

Ahh. :toast

Which goes back to my point about the talent pool. The number of teams doesn't make it tougher when more than half those teams are weaker. One thing that Duncan has had to do which makes it tougher is longer seasons and post seasons.

When Russell came into the league, it was before the baby boom, blacks were not fully integrated into the league, and there were no international competition.

The talent level of the NBA did not approach modern standards until about 1970, and even then it was diluted by the ABA.

[samikeyp]

When Russell came into the league, it was before the baby boom, blacks were not fully integrated into the league, and there were no international competition.

The talent level of the NBA did not approach modern standards until about 1970, and even then it was diluted by the ABA.

For the available talent at the time, it was much deeper than it is now. Alot of bench warmers wouldn't be here if it weren't for so many teams. That is also a big reason why the draft was pared down to two rounds, the talent pool didn't warrant having 7+ rounds.


As far as Duncan's legacy goes, even if he stopped playing right now, he has cemented himself as one of the best ever. Where doesn't matter, he has accomplished the highest honors of his profession. The only one left is the HOF which is a lock.

[Galileo]

Duncan defeated 116 teams? :)


Which goes back to my point about the talent pool. The number of teams doesn't make it tougher when more than half those teams are weaker. One thing that Duncan has had to do which makes it tougher is longer seasons and post seasons.

It may dilute talent on other teams, but it also dilutes talent on your own team.

Russell had TEN Hall-of-Fame teammates (I missed one on the other post)

Cousy (7 seasons)
Bill Sharman (5 seasons)
Andy Philip (2 seasons)
Frank Ramsey (8 seasons)
Havlicek (7 seasons)
Sam Jones (10 seasons)
Tom Heinsohn (9 seasons)
Bailey Howell (3 seasons)
KC Jones (9 seasons)
Clyde Lovellette (2 seasons)

+ a hall-of-fame coach

Duncan

DRob for 6 seasons

Russell had 62 HoF seasons from teammates, and average of about 5 per season, not counting Russell himself. So Russell's average team had 6 hall-of-famers. That means even Russell's sixth man was a hall-of famer.

Russell also won 10 out of 10 game 7's in the playoffs. The fact is, had he lost any of these his amazing total titles total would be lower by one for each loss. All but one of the games were close.

Yes, Russell was a clutch player, but he was very lucky to win 9 out of 9 close game sevens.

[samikeyp]

It may dilute talent on other teams, but it also dilutes talent on your own team.

Russell had TEN Hall-of-Fame teammates (I missed one on the other post)

Cousy (7 seasons)
Bill Sharman (5 seasons)
Andy Philip (2 seasons)
Frank Ramsey (8 seasons)
Havlicek (7 seasons)
Sam Jones (10 seasons)
Tom Heinsohn (9 seasons)
Bailey Howell (3 seasons)
KC Jones (9 seasons)
Clyde Lovellette (2 seasons)

+ a hall-of-fame coach

Duncan

DRob for 6 seasons

Russell had 62 HoF seasons from teammates, and average of about 5 per season, not counting Russell himself. So Russell's average team had 6 hall-of-famers. That means even Russell's sixth man was a hall-of famer.

Russell also won 10 out of 10 game 7's in the playoffs. The fact is, had he lost any of these his amazing total titles total would be lower by one for each loss. All but one of the games were close.

Yes, Russell was a clutch player, but he was very lucky to win 9 out of 9 close game sevens.

or he was good.

[Galileo]

or he was good.

He was very good, but in at least one game 7, he was almost the goat, as he threw a pass of the backboard and caused a key turnover.

He had the best teammates in NBA history.

[samikeyp]

He was very good, but in at least one game 7, he was almost the goat, as he threw a pass of the backboard and caused a key turnover.

He had the best teammates in NBA history.

Doesn't take away from his greatness.

[Galileo]

Doesn't take away from his greatness.

We are talking about whether he is as good as Duncan and rating their accomplishments.

[samikeyp]

We are talking about whether he is as good as Duncan and rating their accomplishments.

Right. We are talking about the player, not the team.

[Galileo]

Right. We are talking about the player, not the team.

That's right.

Duncan, with lesser teammates, defeated more teams to win his championships.

[samikeyp]

That's right.

Duncan, with lesser teammates, defeated more teams to win his championships.


If we are talking about the player and not the team, then teammates are irrelevant.

Still, I stand by my statement, I don't think at this point Duncan is better than Russell but the gap is very small and Timmy still has plenty of time.

[Galileo]

If we are talking about the player and not the team, then teammates are irrelevant.

Still, I stand by my statement, I don't think at this point Duncan is better than Russell but the gap is very small and Timmy still has plenty of time.

Russell is ahead by one point under my system.

[Leetonidas]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

[samikeyp]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

I didn't say the talent pool was better back when Russell played as opposed to today. I am saying the available talent was more concentrated on each team due to the fact of there being less teams. Not all players now could succeed then but IMO even less players then could succeed now. There are some players, however,who could be good in any era, Russell and Duncan are two of those players.

[raspsa]

I think Wilt knew how to be a good teammate, he just did what he had to to make his team the best it could be. He followed up his 50 ppg season by leading the league in assists the next year.

Wilt was a bona fide freak of nature. I wonder what really motivated him to go after the assists record? IMO it was to add yet another record to his personal resume. I'm not downplaying his achievements w/c are fantastic. He showed he could be a terrific assists guy, that he could rebound, score, etc.. but could he put all his talents/skills together CONSISTENTLY playing team ball, season after season.. unfortunately the answer is no, he couldn't.. if he did, he would be untouchable at the top .. not even MJ could touch him.
Now, put Russell's mind in Wilt\s body then you have the T800 of all basketball players.

[Thomas82]

actually someone on bspn said that timmy is the only one of the three who is the best ever at his position. He said that kobe and shaq were all time greats, but not the best at their positions like timmy is.:bking:bling:worthy:

So if you look at it from a position view, then timmy is top 5 which is amazing. I am going to cry like a baby when he retires. :cry


+1

[Chieflion]

Wilt was a bona fide freak of nature. I wonder what really motivated him to go after the assists record? IMO it was to add yet another record to his personal resume. I'm not downplaying his achievements w/c are fantastic. He showed he could be a terrific assists guy, that he could rebound, score, etc.. but could he put all his talents/skills together CONSISTENTLY playing team ball, season after season.. unfortunately the answer is no, he couldn't.. if he did, he would be untouchable at the top .. not even MJ could touch him.
Now, put Russell's mind in Wilt\s body then you have the T800 of all basketball players.
Wilt went after the assists cause the media said he can only score.

[TDMVPDPOY]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

the difference in eras, russell and stuff played on teams stacked with good players and one less round in the playoffs...

while todays league the talent is evenly spread out around the league to all teams, where you have at least 1-3 good players on each team while the rest are fkn scrubs.

[dbreiden83080]

Greatest PF of all time and top 10 player ever...

I'm 28 and in my lifetime the only player i ever saw better than Timmy, in their prime was Jordan.. Yes i'm saying he's better than Hakeem.. Just my opinion..

[Thomas82]

Greatest PF of all time and top 10 player ever...

I'm 28 and in my lifetime the only player i ever saw better than Timmy, in their prime was Jordan.. Yes i'm saying he's better than Hakeem.. Just my opinion..

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

[samikeyp]

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

and I am 10 years older than you...and I agree as well. :toast

[Thomas82]

and I am 10 years older than you...and I agree as well. :toast

You can even make a case for him being in the top 5, considering that he is the best ever at his position.

[samikeyp]

You can even make a case for him being in the top 5, considering that he is the best ever at his position.

I could see that...although I would do that after his career because I don't think he is done with his accomplishments.

In the last 25 years we have seen the power forward position redefined 4 times, McHale, Barkley, Malone and now Duncan. Good stuff. :toast

[polandprzem]

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

I'm about your ages and I do agree as well :)

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think there's an empirical formula to prove what I think -- no matter how much Galileo wants to pretend that there can be. And I don't think it's just about talent or flash or publicity or highlights -- results must matter. Hence, I think Russell is firmly entrenched in the pantheon of greats, no matter who his teammates were and no matter what the competition level was. Russell's teammates changed through the years, but his team's results did not, which strikes me as a testament to Russell's greatness. They beat all comers during Russell's reign and that's all they could have done.

As to Mr. Duncan: Timmy is surely the most accomplished pro of this generation (really post-Jordan). And other than Jordan or Magic, I consider him the most accomplished pro since the merger. He's been the unquestioned focal point and crucial player on 4-title winners, while bringing home 2 MVPs, 12 All-NBA's (9 First Teams), and 12 All-Defenses (8 First Teams; and having been royally screwed out of one or more DPOYs along the way).

Shaq has as many titles, but less of the ancillary accolades. He was First Team All-NBA 8 times, but was Third Team All-NBA another 4 times; Duncan has never been anything other than First or Second Team. Shaq only made 3 All-Defense teams (and never First Team). He has only one MVP (though that's unfair). But, more than anything, I think he's eclipsed by Duncan because he was clearly not the alpha male on his last title team.

Bird has more of the ancillary accolades (more MVPs, an equal number of First Team All-League nods), but he likewise was rarely named to an All-Defense team and was never named to an All-Defense First Team. Moreover, Bird does not have as many rings as Timmy.

I'd also argue, though, that hardware aside, Timmy's greatness should get a bump because of what he won with. The latter days of David Robinson's career weren't what made him a Hall of Famer; David was a very good player when the Spurs started winning titles and was much more of a role player when they won in 2003. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are All-Star caliber talents, but not all-time greats. Timmy won repeatedly with those guys by his side. I don't think anyone would agree that latter-Dave, Manu or Tony is the basketball equivalent of Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Robert Parish, or Kevin McHale. Shaq and Bird, in winning titles, had historically better sidekicks than Duncan did in winning his. I thnk the world of Tony and Manu (and Dave, of course), but in title runs, those guys were (at best) marginal All-Stars. Kobe, Wade, Parish, McHale weren't merely All-Stars; those guys were making First and Second Team All-NBA during the heydays of Bird and Shaq.

In the years of the Spurs 4 title runs, Duncan didn't have a single teammate who made an All-NBA team. Bowen made 3 All-Defense teams during those runs; Ginobili made an All-Star team in 2005. Other than that, those Spurs teams only accolades were Duncan's All-NBA, All-Defense, and All-Star nods (and his MVPs).

By contrast, in Shaq's 4 title runs, Kobe was 2nd team twice and 1st team once, and Wade was 2nd team.

It's all subjective. And my point of view is decidedly skewed in favor of Spurs and particularly Tim Duncan. But I think there's plenty of reasonable argument to put Tim above Bird and Shaq, which necessarily puts Tim into the elite of the elite of the elite and among the 7 or so best players in the history of the game.

[doobs]

I could see that...although I would do that after his career because I don't think he is done with his accomplishments.

In the last 25 years we have seen the power forward position redefined 4 times, McHale, Barkley, Malone and now Duncan. Good stuff. :toast

Not sure about that.

- Barkley did not redefine the position. He was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, and there really haven't been any 6'4'' power forwards since. He was an anomaly.

- Malone did more to redefine the position, in that he developed a reliable outside shot and became a truly versatile first-scoring option.

- McHale did a lot to improve upon the position. He was polished. His post moves were amazing. McHale was the forerunner to Olajuwon and Duncan, two of the greatest post players in NBA history. (Yes, I realize Olajuwon was technically a center.)

- Duncan's game is a combination of McHale, Olajuwon, and Russell. He is the best power forward of all time. I'm not sure he's redefined the position, except to the extent that he has completely blurred the line between power forward and center.

- Frankly, I think guys like Nowitzki and Garnett have done more to redefine the position than Duncan.

[samikeyp]

I'm not sure he's redefined the position, except to the extent that he has completely blurred the line between power forward and center.

Which would be a redefinition of the postion.


Frankly, I think guys like Nowitzki and Garnett have done more to redefine the position than Duncan.

Garnett has had a similar impact as Duncan but not to the extent that Duncan has, IMO.

Dirk..maybe offensively but that's it, he doesn't bring the defensive skills that KG or TD do.

[samikeyp]

Not sure about that.

- Barkley did not redefine the position. He was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, and there really haven't been any 6'4'' power forwards since. He was an anomaly.

- Malone did more to redefine the position, in that he developed a reliable outside shot and became a truly versatile first-scoring option.

- McHale did a lot to improve upon the position. He was polished. His post moves were amazing. McHale was the forerunner to Olajuwon and Duncan, two of the greatest post players in NBA history. (Yes, I realize Olajuwon was technically a center.)



It was McHale's polish that redefined it. Barkley took it a step further, Malone further still.

[doobs]

Which would be a redefinition of the postion.


Thus, I wrote "except to the extent." Duncan has mostly improved upon the innovations of his predecessors. Like I said, he has completely blurred the line, but McHale and Olajuwon had already started the process. Duncan just finished the process. He hasn't really introduced anything new.



Garnett has had a similar impact as Duncan but not to the extent that Duncan has, IMO.

Dirk..maybe offensively but that's it, he doesn't bring the defensive skills that KG or TD do.

I think we're talking about different things. Duncan is better than KG and Dirk. But that's not the question. Like I said, Duncan is an improvement upon the innovations of his predecessors. Mostly, though, what Duncan has introduced was already in the works with McHale and Olajuwon.

KG and Dirk are pretty damn new and unique. Time will tell if their innovations change the position. I'll clarify: Dirk and KG have more potential to redefine the position than Duncan.


It was McHale's polish that redefined it. Barkley took it a step further, Malone further still.

I think McHale was the one you mentioned who did the most to redefine the position. Barkley did very little to redefine the position; he's just too darn unusual, and I can't think of any power forward since who plays like him. Malone did more than Barkley to redefine the position.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan's supporting cast in 2003 doesn't get mentioned enough..he played with David when he was "just" a role player, and Manu/Parker/Jackson before they were more than "just" role players..

Duncan in the playoffs led us in PPG, RPG, BPG, APG, and finished 2nd in FG%..he absolutely carried this team..people forget how completely dominant he was in his prime..

of course that doesn't get mentioned, while they cry about Lebron's supporting cast every year..

nobody mentions why Tim lost in 2001 and 2002, when our guards were horrible..teams would swarm him, and nobody could help him out..I never hear anybody mention that outside of this forum..when it's Kobe or KG, that's all we hear about..

when Duncan is hurt, we don't hear about it in the media, because he doesn't talk about it..his sprained ankles in the Finals, his PF in 2006, his constant injuries that he plays through..when Kobe has a hurt finger or has the flu, we hear about it at least 200 times during the telecast..

they can talk about how "boring" he is, but in reality, the media is the reason for this..if Timmy played in ANY other era, or if he played in Boston or LA, you have to believe the hype would be huge..

[samikeyp]

I think McHale was the one you mentioned who did the most to redefine the position. Barkley did very little to redefine the position; he's just too darn unusual, and I can't think of any power forward since who plays like him. Malone did more than Barkley to redefine the position.

Actually I said nothing like that. I said he was one who redefined it, not the most.

As far as Dirk goes, IMO you have to have a great all around game to redefine a position, I don't believe Dirk has what it takes defensively.

[doobs]

Actually I said nothing like that. I said he was one who redefined it, not the most.

No, I said he redefined it the most. Read it again. I said nothing about you saying that. Don't get butt-hurt.

[samikeyp]

No, I said he redefined it the most. Don't get butt-hurt.

It was a misread on my part. My bad.

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean anyone is butthurt.

[doobs]

It was a misread on my part. My bad.

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean anyone is butthurt.

Well, you should probably make sure you comprehend a post before you make accusations about what the person who posted it is saying. You sounded butt-hurt.

Maybe butt-hurt is a harsh way to put it. You were unreasonably defensive.

[samikeyp]

Well, you should probably make sure you comprehend a post before you make accusations about what the person who posted it is saying. You sounded butt-hurt.

Maybe butt-hurt is a harsh way to put it. You were unreasonably defensive.

I think there is where the problem lies. I didn't sound a certain way but because of the written word, we can't tell that. I was (and am still not) upset or defensive about anything. Just enjoying a good debate. I was trying to clarify my position and I simply misread what was said. It wasn't a matter of comprehension, it was a matter of trying to post too fast here at work! :lol

[samikeyp]

see? Double post! I gotta slow down! :lmao


I didn't say which one I thought most redefined it but I will now. Until Duncan, I would have agreed with you about McHale. I believe now that Duncan has done the most to do so.

Just my .02

[Thomas82]

I don't think there's an empirical formula to prove what I think -- no matter how much Galileo wants to pretend that there can be. And I don't think it's just about talent or flash or publicity or highlights -- results must matter. Hence, I think Russell is firmly entrenched in the pantheon of greats, no matter who his teammates were and no matter what the competition level was. Russell's teammates changed through the years, but his team's results did not, which strikes me as a testament to Russell's greatness. They beat all comers during Russell's reign and that's all they could have done.

As to Mr. Duncan: Timmy is surely the most accomplished pro of this generation (really post-Jordan). And other than Jordan or Magic, I consider him the most accomplished pro since the merger. He's been the unquestioned focal point and crucial player on 4-title winners, while bringing home 2 MVPs, 12 All-NBA's (9 First Teams), and 12 All-Defenses (8 First Teams; and having been royally screwed out of one or more DPOYs along the way).

Shaq has as many titles, but less of the ancillary accolades. He was First Team All-NBA 8 times, but was Third Team All-NBA another 4 times; Duncan has never been anything other than First or Second Team. Shaq only made 3 All-Defense teams (and never First Team). He has only one MVP (though that's unfair). But, more than anything, I think he's eclipsed by Duncan because he was clearly not the alpha male on his last title team.

Bird has more of the ancillary accolades (more MVPs, an equal number of First Team All-League nods), but he likewise was rarely named to an All-Defense team and was never named to an All-Defense First Team. Moreover, Bird does not have as many rings as Timmy.

I'd also argue, though, that hardware aside, Timmy's greatness should get a bump because of what he won with. The latter days of David Robinson's career weren't what made him a Hall of Famer; David was a very good player when the Spurs started winning titles and was much more of a role player when they won in 2003. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are All-Star caliber talents, but not all-time greats. Timmy won repeatedly with those guys by his side. I don't think anyone would agree that latter-Dave, Manu or Tony is the basketball equivalent of Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Robert Parish, or Kevin McHale. Shaq and Bird, in winning titles, had historically better sidekicks than Duncan did in winning his. I thnk the world of Tony and Manu (and Dave, of course), but in title runs, those guys were (at best) marginal All-Stars. Kobe, Wade, Parish, McHale weren't merely All-Stars; those guys were making First and Second Team All-NBA during the heydays of Bird and Shaq.

In the years of the Spurs 4 title runs, Duncan didn't have a single teammate who made an All-NBA team. Bowen made 3 All-Defense teams during those runs; Ginobili made an All-Star team in 2005. Other than that, those Spurs teams only accolades were Duncan's All-NBA, All-Defense, and All-Star nods (and his MVPs).

By contrast, in Shaq's 4 title runs, Kobe was 2nd team twice and 1st team once, and Wade was 2nd team.

It's all subjective. And my point of view is decidedly skewed in favor of Spurs and particularly Tim Duncan. But I think there's plenty of reasonable argument to put Tim above Bird and Shaq, which necessarily puts Tim into the elite of the elite of the elite and among the 7 or so best players in the history of the game.

It is subjective, but these are undesputable facts that you just posted. With that being said, people won't truly comprehend Tim Duncan's greatness until after he retires.

[slayermin]

The greatest FORWARD to ever play the game. I have him at #5 all time.

[Thomas82]

Duncan's supporting cast in 2003 doesn't get mentioned enough..he played with David when he was "just" a role player, and Manu/Parker/Jackson before they were more than "just" role players..

Duncan in the playoffs led us in PPG, RPG, BPG, APG, and finished 2nd in FG%..he absolutely carried this team..people forget how completely dominant he was in his prime..

of course that doesn't get mentioned, while they cry about Lebron's supporting cast every year..

nobody mentions why Tim lost in 2001 and 2002, when our guards were horrible..teams would swarm him, and nobody could help him out..I never hear anybody mention that outside of this forum..when it's Kobe or KG, that's all we hear about..

when Duncan is hurt, we don't hear about it in the media, because he doesn't talk about it..his sprained ankles in the Finals, his PF in 2006, his constant injuries that he plays through..when Kobe has a hurt finger or has the flu, we hear about it at least 200 times during the telecast..

they can talk about how "boring" he is, but in reality, the media is the reason for this..if Timmy played in ANY other era, or if he played in Boston or LA, you have to believe the hype would be huge..

+1


The greatest FORWARD to ever play the game. I have him at #5 all time.

You get no argument from me on that one.