LA Times: How Does Kobe Bryant Rank Among NBA Greats?

[duncan228]

Ted Green: How does Kobe Bryant rank among NBA greats? (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/06/ted-green-where-does-kobe-bryant-rank-among-nba-greats.html)
-- Ted Green

Ring No. 4 for Kobe Bryant has inevitably set off a small firestorm of debate and spirited conversation about where the Lakers' star falls in the pantheon of NBA greats. For some odd reason, in 35 years of covering the league, I have never before posted my own best-ever list, leaving it to others with less to do. So by popular demand, or just because, here it is, the top 10 NBA greats ever, broken into two groups, pre- and post- Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

Modern NBA (Post Magic-Bird)

1. Michael Jordan. Julius Erving may have been The Doctor, but it was MJ who operated with the skill and precision of a preternaturally gifted surgeon. The argument, however passionate, that Kobe is the crazier baller with the madder skills is a good one, and not wrong, either, but it doesn't quite hold up against Michael's extraordinary body of work. Six MVP awards, six NBA Finals MVP awards, six championships, undefeated in the NBA Finals and five scoring titles.

Until Kobe gets to seven, if he does, his Airness is still the measuring stick against whom everyone else will and should be compared. The fact that We Liked Mike but don't always know how to feel about the more polarizing Kobe did not in any way enter into this decision.

2. Magic Johnson. The greatest team player. More impact on each 48-minute contest, possession to possession, than anyone who ever lived, and maybe the greatest teammate, too. Five titles, four Finals MVP awards, nine trips to the Finals, and all he did in his spare time was revolutionize the point guard position and save the NBA from itself.

3. Kobe Bryant. If his friend Shaq won't mind the ripoff here, the MTE, Most Talented Ever. And now his own extensive resume is looking more polished, with his fourth ring, first Finals MVP (a legit and important award) and finally a championship to call his very own.

4. Larry Bird. Freakiest white dude who ever laced 'em up. Three titles, three Finals MVP awards, might have won five himself if Magic hadn't been in his way. And by the way, his performances winning those three-point contests during All-Star weekend proved that big guys could shoot like that ... or at least Larry Legend could.

5 (tie). Tim Duncan. Karl Malone scored more points and had bigger muscles, Charles Barkley was more of an uber athlete and rebound machine, but no power forward has ever played with the consistency and precision of a metronome like Duncan has. His four rings, three Finals MVPs and two regular-season MVPs speak to the profound respect the Big Fundamental enjoyed from both the media and his peers.

5 (tie). Shaquille O'Neal. Not the MDE. That was Wilt. But the greatest force of nature since hurricanes and tidal waves. The Daddy's four titles and three Finals MVP awards make Shaq, Kobe and Duncan the winningest among all active NBA players.

Honorable Mention: Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley.

Pre Magic-Bird (before 1980)

1. Bill Russell. I never thought he was more talented than Wilt and still don't. He was never without a full complement, an embarrassment of riches, really, of Hall of Famers around him during his magical run of success. The 11 championships, however, is the ultimate trump card. Scoreboard! Naming the Finals MVP award after him is a nice touch for the game's most incomparable winner.

2. Wilt Chamberlain. A one-man job stimulus package for statisticians who spent half a professional lifetime just keeping track of it all. Averaging close to 40 and 25 boards against the great Russell himself is almost enough to make me stop typing. The 100-point game in Hershey, the 50-point AVERAGE, averaging more than 48 minutes a game, then leading the league in assists because he said he could ... if any legend lives forever, it should be his.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The bridge between eras, with the most unstoppable shot of all time, one that has never been replicated, the Skyhook. Six titles (thanks in no small measure to Magic), six regular-season MVP awards and the most points ever will have him higher on some lists, but he mailed in some games before Magic arrived in L.A., and his cold, off-putting style with the media made him harder to root for.

4. Jerry West. If Red Auerbach had not been clever and colorblind enough to assemble the Celtics as he did, Zeke from Cabin Creek literally could have won 7, 8, even 9 titles instead of his one in 1972. Along with Magic, Bird, Kobe and MJ, one of the five greatest and most willful competitors in NBA history, with the prettiest jump shot. In one Finals he averaged 40 against the Celtics and still lost. It is not for nothing he is called The Logo.

5. Elgin Baylor. Among non-centers, the NBA's first true scoring machine. He stood only 6-5 going on unstoppable, with a nervous tic that made his head fakes even more impossible to guard. I'd love to see him in today's game when half the YWCA touches send you to the foul line.

Honorable Mention: George Mikan, Bob Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Pete Maravich, John Havlicek, Rick Barry and Julius Erving.

[DPG21920]

lol

[Ice009]

Kobe is NOT ahead of Tim and Shaq.

I'd go

1 Michael

2 Magic and Larry

3 Tim and Shaq

4 Kobe

Forgot about Hakeem. Sorry about that Mr Olajuwon. He should probably be up there ahead of Kobe too somewhere.

[KSeal]

I thought Larry had two finals MVPs. Kobe is top 20 all time, I don't know about top 10.

[DPG21920]

Where is Epic Fail at?

[GuerillaBlack]

You can't put LeBron James as an honorable mention. Clyde Drexler gets in over him (as of now of course).

[Killakobe81]

Not a bad lsiist Larry himseld said Kobe is better plus he has more rings ... I think Kobe is over Shaq evebn BEFORE This title it's you dumbasses that think diffrent he is borderline top 5 DEFINITELY top 10 all-time. I agree that Duncan is bnbetter than Shaq an dHakeem as well ...Hakeem at this best was better than both Duncan more consistent Shaq more dominat in 2000 but out of the 3 Duncan gets nod for consistent greatness ...


Kobe haters can keep it coming when it is all said and done barring injury Kobe will have re-wriiten it all ...then Lebron will rewrite if he stays healthy just dont forget some (i bet even on here) thought TMAC was = or > than Kobe ...MORONS!!
In fact before his injury some argued MAnu as kobe said a bad boy but he is not on Kobe's level ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe is NOT ahead of Tim and Shaq.

I'd go

1 Michael

2 Magic

3 Tim and Bird

4 Kobe

5. hakeem

6.Shaq

Forgot about Hakeem. Sorry about that Mr Olajuwon. He should probably be up there ahead of Kobe too somewhere.

[IronMexican]

Kobe and Clyde belong in the same sentence. rocketfan told me a couple months ago they were equal.

[TimDuncan>Kobe]

Jesus, how long do Laker's fans need to hold some gay ass butthurt grudge against Shaq. You just won a championship, can we please drop the whole "Shaq didn't lead the Lakers to three rings" bullshit, when anyone that watched those seasons knows that Shaq was the foundation to those titles(not to bring up that super dope 34-48 lottery season Kobe led them to the year after Shaq went to greener pastures).

[DPG21920]

How do you have six players in four spots you dumb piece of shit. Id take Hakeem over Shaq and Duncan any day of the week.

Why are you such a douche?

[TimDuncan>Kobe]

How do you have six players in four spots you dumb piece of shit. Id take Hakeem over Shaq and Duncan any day of the week.

Maybe there's a reason you're a dickriding armchair coach instead of a GM.

[Ice009]

How do you have six players in four spots you dumb piece of shit. Id take Hakeem over Shaq and Duncan any day of the week.

Your fucking LA times article did it you retard. It's called a tie. Look at the original article.

I thought it was too close to call so I put two players together as a tie.

[robbie380]

Ted Green: How does Kobe Bryant rank among NBA greats? (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/06/ted-green-where-does-kobe-bryant-rank-among-nba-greats.html)
-- Ted Green

3. Kobe Bryant. If his friend Shaq won't mind the ripoff here, the MTE, Most Talented Ever.:rollin:lol:rollin:lol And now his own extensive resume is looking more polished, with his fourth ring, first Finals MVP (a legit and important award) and finally a championship to call his very own.


call me when MTE can shoot over 47% for a season. lol at MTE shooting 44.7% FG% and 32.9% 3pt% for his playoff career. kobe is great and talented like every other hall of famer but let's get off this most talented ever bullshit.

[baseline bum]

Here is my problem with Shaq being in a top 10 on any list. When the game was on the line with five minutes to go, every NBA fan knows that he wants the ball to go to his best player, Shaq was never that player on any team in his entire career. At LSU it was Chris Jackson, in Orlando it was Penny, in LA it was Kobe, in Miami it was Wade, and now in Phoenix its Nash.

Shaq was never a "money" ball player, neither was Wilt. Wilt didnt win a title until he was paired with West, and it was West that was hitting all the big shots when they won. In my opinion, Shaq is no different than the Karl Malones, and Charles Barkleys of the league, except he was paired with great co-stars.

LMAO. Revisionism at its finest. Shaq was option #1 to close game 7 in Sacramento, the biggest game the Lakers have played in the past 20 years. Of the 8 points scored in OT before the Kings started intentionally fouling with 15 seconds left, Shaq had 6 of them. Here's the video of OT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDD7_vQDhDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL7lePEaaqY

I know. Shaq wasn't the money ball player vs Portland in game 7 either, despite scoring 9 points in the 4th on 100% shooting while grabbing 5 boards. Shaw's three to tie the game had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into Shaq and him commanding the triple-team that gave him that wide-open look on the direct pass out from O'Neal. Those 5 fouls he drew on Sabonis, Grant, and Wallace had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into him relentlessly that entire quarter. The 2nd biggest Lakers game of the past 20 years wasn't a money game either I guess.

[baseline bum]

Also, you're wrong (as usual) about Wilt. He carried the Sixers to a 68-13 record and a title in 67, 2 years before being paired with collusion boy.

[21_Blessings]

I thought Larry had two finals MVPs. Kobe is top 20 all time, I don't know about top 10.

lmao

[21_Blessings]

Kobe was always the closer on those 3-peat teams baseline, thats the fact.

Was Pippen the closer on the Bulls? Oh thought so. Kobe was also a better defender than Shaq.

Shaq needed KB to get those rings. He's proven time and time against he can't win without a HOF wing.

[MaNu4Tres]

Shaq won 3 final mvps from 2000-2002...That itself tells you Shaq> Kobe

[KSeal]

lmao

What's so funny? Bird does only have 2 finals MVP's, article is wrong. Kobe ain't top 10 imo. Not really all that funny, just my opinion. Though you're the biggest homer of all so I guess if a Laker fan doesn't say Kobe's the best ever that's a sin, who knows with you.

[KSeal]

lmao, once again 21 douchebags talks shit, then lurks forever then leaves without explanation, great guy.

[BRHornet45]

LMFAO!!! .... it took Kobe 6 TIMES to finally win a NBA finals MVP award .... 6 fucking times. enough said. (not to mention his absolutely PATHETIC 43% shooting in the series)

[Ghazi]

LMFAO!!! .... it took Kobe 6 TIMES to finally win a NBA finals MVP award .... 6 fucking times. enough said. (not to mention his absolutely PATHETIC 43% shooting in the series)

Hey what was CP3's shooting % v the Nuggets.

Thanks.

[BRHornet45]

Hey what was CP3's shooting % v the Nuggets.

Thanks.

hey son has Dirk knocked up any more felons lately??

[Amaso]

LMFAO!!! .... it took Kobe 6 TIMES to finally win a NBA finals MVP award .... 6 fucking times. enough said. (not to mention his absolutely PATHETIC 43% shooting in the series)

How is it Kobe's fault that he averaged 30/6/6 in the 2001 nba finals and didn't get the Finals MVP?

[KSeal]

LMFAO!!! .... it took Kobe 6 TIMES to finally win a NBA finals MVP award .... 6 fucking times. enough said. (not to mention his absolutely PATHETIC 43% shooting in the series)

Kobe (2009 Finals): 5 games, 44.0 min., 32.3 PPG (58/135, 43%), 5.5 RPG, 7.4 APG, 1.3 SPG, 3.8 TO
Pierce (2008 Finals): 6 games, 38.8 min., 21.8 PPG (38/88, 43%), 4.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.2 SPG, 3.7 TO
Lebron (2007 Finals): 4 games, 42.5 min., 22.0 PPG (32/90, 36%), 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 1.0 SPG, 0.5 TO
Wade (2006 Finals): 6 games, 43.5 min., 34.7 PPG (65/139, 47%), 7.8 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.7 SPG, 3.7 TO

Jordan (1996 Finals): 6 games, 42.0 min., 27.3 PPG (51/123, 42%), 5.3 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 3.0 TO
Jordan (1997 Finals): 6 games, 42.7 min., 32.3 PPG (72/158, 46%), 7.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.2 SPG, 2.2 TO
Jordan (1998 Finals): 6 games, 41.7 min., 33.5 PPG (70/164, 43%), 4.0 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.8 SPG, 1.7 TO

Compared to the others Kobe shooting 43% really isn't that "PATHETIC". I'd say he's worth the finals MVP.

[BRHornet45]

son why did you only show 3 of Jordan's finals MVP years? funny how you chose NOT to show the other 3 were he shot well over 50%....

shooting percentages aside ... the fact is that it took Kobe 6 fucking times to finally win a finals MVP award. how in the world can anyone in there right mind consider this guy in the top 5 best players ever?

[KSeal]

son why did you only show 3 of Jordan's finals MVP years? funny how you chose NOT to show the other 3 were he shot well over 50%....

shooting percentages aside ... the fact is that it took Kobe 6 fucking times to finally win a finals MVP award. how in the world can anyone in there right mind consider this guy in the top 5 best players ever?

Only reason I didn't show the other three for MJ is cause I stole those stats from a thread someone else started, I don't know where MJ's others are but I'd love to see them. That's completely beside the point though, I proved the point that MJ wasn't a whole lot better and neither was the finals MVP last year. You're just looking for something, anything to discredit him and that's ok. But the truth is he was pretty darn good in the finals. He isn't top five, but maybe top 10 for some people, I think he's like top 15 or so which is pretty damn good.

[BRHornet45]

Only reason I didn't show the other three for MJ is cause I stole those stats from a thread someone else started, I don't know where MJ's others are but I'd love to see them. That's completely beside the point though, I proved the point that MJ wasn't a whole lot better and neither was the finals MVP last year. You're just looking for something, anything to discredit him and that's ok. But the truth is he was pretty darn good in the finals. He isn't top five, but maybe top 10 for some people, I think he's like top 15 or so which is pretty damn good.


LMAO son are you serious???

MJ wasn't a whole lot better????

Jordan won 6 NBA finals MVP awards in 6 tries shooting nearly 50% on average in all 6 .... Kobe won 1 MVP in 6 tries, got his ass whipped in 2 of them, and watched Shaq win 3 of them. Jordan was and always will be better than Kobe. anyone with a brain understands that. however anyone who is easily fooled by the media and bullshit programs like "Kobe Doin' Work" will think otherwise.

Kobe is a damn good player, but FAR from great. put him on any other team and he is just another Paul Pierce.

[KSeal]

LMAO son are you serious???

MJ wasn't a whole lot better????

Jordan won 6 NBA finals MVP awards in 6 tries shooting nearly 50% on average in all 6 .... Kobe won 1 MVP in 6 tries, got his ass whipped in 2 of them, and watched Shaq win 3 of them. Jordan was and always will be better than Kobe. anyone with a brain understands that. however anyone who is easily fooled by the media and bullshit programs like "Kobe Doin' Work" will think otherwise.

Kobe is a damn good player, but FAR from great. put him on any other team and he is just another Paul Pierce.

You misunderstood me. I was talking about Kobe not being top five, or ten but probably top 15. MJ is number one bro, and far better then Kobe. I was referring to your shooting % thing about how bad 43% was when MJ shot on average 44% in the final three peat and PP did the same last year.

[BRHornet45]

You misunderstood me. I was talking about Kobe not being top five, or ten but probably top 15. MJ is number one bro, and far better then Kobe.

I got ya, but it simply blows my mind that some people have the nerve to put Kobe in a top 5. MAYBE top 15, but top 5? really?

[Ghazi]

I got ya, but it simply blows my mind that some people have the nerve to put Kobe in a top 5. MAYBE top 15, but top 5? really?

Why should he be top 15?

After all, isn't he just another 44% 2 guard who gets hyped because he plays for the Lakers?

Just another Vince Carter, T-Mac, Allen Iverson, etc etc. Are they top 15 players too?

121-63 fag.

[BRHornet45]

Why should he be top 15?

After all, isn't he just another 44% 2 guard who gets hyped because he plays for the Lakers?

Just another Vince Carter, T-Mac, Allen Iverson, etc etc. Are they top 15 players too?

121-63 fag.


LOL son I gotta admit .... it has been quite humorous watching you over these last 2-3 weeks. You jumped on the Kobe bandwagon faster than a Spurs fan trying to get back across the border. just out of the fucking blue Ghazi all of a sudden became a huge Kobe Bryant supporter / nut-hugger.

[Ghazi]

I'm just here to set the record motha fuckin straight :smokin

[ambchang]

This is just pathetic.
The ignorance in NBA history of certain Kobe fans are showing once again.

[dirk4mvp]

lol at Kobe over Bird.

[Jacko]

When it's all said and done Kobe will have earned his spot in the top 5 All-time. He's not there yet though.

[stretch]

My Top 10:

1. Michael Jordan - No explanation needed.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Unstoppable/versatile scorer, played decent defense (mainly shot-blocking though), great body of work. Perfected the most impossible shot to defend... the sky hook. While almost all players of the past have been surpassed by players in modern generations, this is one skill that has never been matched in the least bit.

3. Tim Duncan - Possibly the greatest leader I've ever seen. He is the Magic Johnson of big-men, in terms of putting such great emphasis on team play, not being a great athlete but extremely smart and cunning, and using his game to set others up for easy shot opportunities. A monster on both ends, and always let his game speak. Always confident, but never over-confident. Always kept his hunger.

4. Kobe Bryant - I don't think it's unfair to call him the most talented player the game has seen. I think that him and Tracy McGrady are the two most naturally talented players I've ever seen. Questionable shot selection and leadership qualities is what has kept him from being up with MJ. But fact is, there really isn't much he can't do on the court. He is just an amazing basketball player.

5. Magic Johnson - Arguably the other greatest leader I've ever seen. Not a great athlete, shooter, or defender, but his ball-handling and court vision along with his size (a point guard in a power forwards body) gave him one of the three most unusual advantages in NBA history, alongside Dirk (shooting guard in a centers body) and Barkley (power forward in a shooting guards body). However he used it to his benefit more than the other two. He loved winning, and did a great job at pumping up his teammates and getting the best out of them.

6. Larry Bird - The golden standard for a "blue-collar" type player. His hard work and hustle transcended that of any player. Not much of an athlete by any means, but he had a killer jumpshot, and busted his ass on the boards and doing dirty work. His defense was quite poor (like Magic's, which is why they rank a little lower on my top 10 than most people's), but he was one of the smartest, craftiest players ever, and simply found ways to score and to leave his mark on the game.

7. Shaquille O'Neal - Absolutely unstoppable. No player other than Michael Jordan was as demanding of double and triple team coverages, than Shaq. The way he forced teams to defend him was something the game hadn't really seen before. In his prime, he is arguably the most dominant force in NBA history. If he had a better work ethic (not getting complacent), and was a better free-throw shooter, I don't think there is a doubt that he would be #1 on this list.

8. Hakeem Olajuwon - Incredibly versatile. Incredible moves. Dominated on both ends. Just a damn good, well rounded player. Unfortunately he played in the Jordan era, so he (along with several other greats) gets overshadowed by MJs greatness and dominance.

9. Oscar Robertson - The MJ before MJ. Did it all. Set the golden standard for SGs in his time, eventually being surpassed by MJ, who now may eventually be surpassed by Lebron/Kobe/Wade. However, he played in a weaker era as well. I do not believe he would be able to accomplish some of the things he did if playing in a more modern era, where athletes are better, talent is better, strategy is better, and DEFENSE is better. But really, the fact is, Robertson was the beginning of this mold of player.

10. Wilt Chamberlain - The Shaq before Shaq. He came well before his time, and was fortunate he played in an era that did not have very good competition, athletes, or strategy. His greatness, much like other players such as Robertson, Bill Russell, and such, was greatly helped due to the lesser competition. I have strong doubts that Chamberlain would be able to have 100 point games and 50 ppg seasons in more modern eras. His lack of championships and mediocre leadership hurts his ranking in my book as well. However again, the fact is, he was the beginning of the mold of dominant centers.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You jumped on the Kobe bandwagon faster than a Spurs fan trying to get back across the border.

:lmao :lmao

[stretch]

lol at Kobe over Bird.

more talented, better athlete, more rings, WAYYYYYYYY better defender.

that is one thing that bugs me, when people talk about how Nash shouldnt win MVPs since he did his work only on one end of the court... you can say the same about Magic and Bird. they were both fucking horrible defenders, and had STACKED FUCKING TEAMS. so why do they get a pass on their shit defense?

Kobe may not be as good of a leader as Bird or Magic, but he is most definitely a better basketball player.

[Streakyshooter08]

Well, the problem I have with those kind of lists is that it is really hard to compare players that play different positions. There is only one objective criteria and that is success. Based on that I would say that Kobe is a bit behind Shaq and Timmy. In the end it does not really matter because most of the time fans argue for their favourite player anyways.

[wireonfire]

At least LAT is not homer like some laker fans.

[21_Blessings]

My Top 10:

1. Michael Jordan - No explanation needed.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Unstoppable/versatile scorer, played decent defense (mainly shot-blocking though), great body of work. Perfected the most impossible shot to defend... the sky hook. While almost all players of the past have been surpassed by players in modern generations, this is one skill that has never been matched in the least bit.

3. Tim Duncan - Possibly the greatest leader I've ever seen. He is the Magic Johnson of big-men, in terms of putting such great emphasis on team play, not being a great athlete but extremely smart and cunning, and using his game to set others up for easy shot opportunities. A monster on both ends, and always let his game speak. Always confident, but never over-confident. Always kept his hunger.

4. Kobe Bryant - I don't think it's unfair to call him the most talented player the game has seen. I think that him and Tracy McGrady are the two most naturally talented players I've ever seen. Questionable shot selection and leadership qualities is what has kept him from being up with MJ. But fact is, there really isn't much he can't do on the court. He is just an amazing basketball player.

5. Magic Johnson - Arguably the other greatest leader I've ever seen. Not a great athlete, shooter, or defender, but his ball-handling and court vision along with his size (a point guard in a power forwards body) gave him one of the three most unusual advantages in NBA history, alongside Dirk (shooting guard in a centers body) and Barkley (power forward in a shooting guards body). However he used it to his benefit more than the other two. He loved winning, and did a great job at pumping up his teammates and getting the best out of them.

6. Larry Bird - The golden standard for a "blue-collar" type player. His hard work and hustle transcended that of any player. Not much of an athlete by any means, but he had a killer jumpshot, and busted his ass on the boards and doing dirty work. His defense was quite poor (like Magic's, which is why they rank a little lower on my top 10 than most people's), but he was one of the smartest, craftiest players ever, and simply found ways to score and to leave his mark on the game.

7. Shaquille O'Neal - Absolutely unstoppable. No player other than Michael Jordan was as demanding of double and triple team coverages, than Shaq. The way he forced teams to defend him was something the game hadn't really seen before. In his prime, he is arguably the most dominant force in NBA history. If he had a better work ethic (not getting complacent), and was a better free-throw shooter, I don't think there is a doubt that he would be #1 on this list.

8. Hakeem Olajuwon - Incredibly versatile. Incredible moves. Dominated on both ends. Just a damn good, well rounded player. Unfortunately he played in the Jordan era, so he (along with several other greats) gets overshadowed by MJs greatness and dominance.

9. Oscar Robertson - The MJ before MJ. Did it all. Set the golden standard for SGs in his time, eventually being surpassed by MJ, who now may eventually be surpassed by Lebron/Kobe/Wade. However, he played in a weaker era as well. I do not believe he would be able to accomplish some of the things he did if playing in a more modern era, where athletes are better, talent is better, strategy is better, and DEFENSE is better. But really, the fact is, Robertson was the beginning of this mold of player.

10. Wilt Chamberlain - The Shaq before Shaq. He came well before his time, and was fortunate he played in an era that did not have very good competition, athletes, or strategy. His greatness, much like other players such as Robertson, Bill Russell, and such, was greatly helped due to the lesser competition. I have strong doubts that Chamberlain would be able to have 100 point games and 50 ppg seasons in more modern eras. His lack of championships and mediocre leadership hurts his ranking in my book as well. However again, the fact is, he was the beginning of the mold of dominant centers.

Wilt numba 10 huh. Interesting list.

I'll just add, I always hear stories about how Wilt, late in his career, would dominate the fuck out of young Kareem. Wilt was a monster in reality and I think he would post Rodman rebounding numbers in the modern era along with Shaq type scoring.

And Magic went to fucking 9 finals in 11 years. Age 20 he starts at center for Kareem, drops 42, 15 and 7 in a NBA finals clinching game 6. 5 all-time seems kinda low. Sucks that his career was cut short though.

[ambchang]

I can't even figure out how Shaq ranks below Kobe, and I hate Shaq and like Kobe.

[stretch]

Wilt numba 10 huh. Interesting list.

I'll just add, I always hear stories about how Wilt, late in his career, would dominate the fuck out of young Kareem. Wilt was a monster in reality and I think he would post Rodman rebounding numbers in the modern era along with Shaq type scoring.

Your stories are misinterpreted then, as Kareem in his second year in the NBA led his Bucks to a 4-1 facefucking of Wilt and his Lakers in the conference finals.


And Magic went to fucking 9 finals in 11 years. Age 20 he starts at center for Kareem, drops 42, 15 and 7 in a NBA finals clinching game 6. 5 all-time seems kinda low. Sucks that his career was cut short though.

They lost points in my book because they sucked at defense, and their teams were stacked. Winning is a team accomplishment, and your leadership has more to do with winning, as opposed to your actual basketball skills. The thing that the greatest players all have in common is they could lead and make their teammates better... not their skills.

[spursfan09]

The greatest thing about Duncan is that he stepped aside and let other players shine time and time again. Tony and Manu blossomed because of him. He was so great his greatness rubbed off on them. So unselfish and a great leader. He doesn't need to be top whatever, he just cares about winning.

[21_Blessings]

Your stories are misinterpreted then, as Kareem in his second year in the NBA led his Bucks to a 4-1 facefucking of Wilt and his Lakers in the conference finals.


Yeah and Wilt outplayed him head to head in that series.


They lost points in my book because they sucked at defense, and their teams were stacked. Winning is a team accomplishment, and your leadership has more to do with winning, as opposed to your actual basketball skills. The thing that the greatest players all have in common is they could lead and make their teammates better... not their skills.

The teams he beat in the finals were just as stacked. And if it wasn't for injuries he could be rocking 7 rings instead of 5.

I love Worthy but Magic made him look alot better than he was IMO. If Worthy was on a lesser team he would probably not be in the HOF. Magic also extended Kareem's career by 5-6 years at least.

[HarlemHeat37]

There is no logical argument of Kobe being ahead of Duncan or Shaq..I still have yet to see anybody make a good argument for it..

again, those Jordan stats are Michael at age 32 and over, past his physical prime..prime Kobe has to be compared to past his prime Jordan, because that's the only way their numbers can be similar in any way..

[LakeShow]

Ted Green: How does Kobe Bryant rank among NBA greats? (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/06/ted-green-where-does-kobe-bryant-rank-among-nba-greats.html)
-- Ted Green

Ring No. 4 for Kobe Bryant has inevitably set off a small firestorm of debate and spirited conversation about where the Lakers' star falls in the pantheon of NBA greats. For some odd reason, in 35 years of covering the league, I have never before posted my own best-ever list, leaving it to others with less to do. So by popular demand, or just because, here it is, the top 10 NBA greats ever, broken into two groups, pre- and post- Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

Modern NBA (Post Magic-Bird)

1. Michael Jordan. Julius Erving may have been The Doctor, but it was MJ who operated with the skill and precision of a preternaturally gifted surgeon. The argument, however passionate, that Kobe is the crazier baller with the madder skills is a good one, and not wrong, either, but it doesn't quite hold up against Michael's extraordinary body of work. Six MVP awards, six NBA Finals MVP awards, six championships, undefeated in the NBA Finals and five scoring titles.

Until Kobe gets to seven, if he does, his Airness is still the measuring stick against whom everyone else will and should be compared. The fact that We Liked Mike but don't always know how to feel about the more polarizing Kobe did not in any way enter into this decision.

2. Magic Johnson. The greatest team player. More impact on each 48-minute contest, possession to possession, than anyone who ever lived, and maybe the greatest teammate, too. Five titles, four Finals MVP awards, nine trips to the Finals, and all he did in his spare time was revolutionize the point guard position and save the NBA from itself.

3. Kobe Bryant. If his friend Shaq won't mind the ripoff here, the MTE, Most Talented Ever. And now his own extensive resume is looking more polished, with his fourth ring, first Finals MVP (a legit and important award) and finally a championship to call his very own.

4. Larry Bird. Freakiest white dude who ever laced 'em up. Three titles, three Finals MVP awards, might have won five himself if Magic hadn't been in his way. And by the way, his performances winning those three-point contests during All-Star weekend proved that big guys could shoot like that ... or at least Larry Legend could.

5 (tie). Tim Duncan. Karl Malone scored more points and had bigger muscles, Charles Barkley was more of an uber athlete and rebound machine, but no power forward has ever played with the consistency and precision of a metronome like Duncan has. His four rings, three Finals MVPs and two regular-season MVPs speak to the profound respect the Big Fundamental enjoyed from both the media and his peers.

5 (tie). Shaquille O'Neal. Not the MDE. That was Wilt. But the greatest force of nature since hurricanes and tidal waves. The Daddy's four titles and three Finals MVP awards make Shaq, Kobe and Duncan the winningest among all active NBA players.

Honorable Mention: Lebron James, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley.

Pre Magic-Bird (before 1980)

1. Bill Russell. I never thought he was more talented than Wilt and still don't. He was never without a full complement, an embarrassment of riches, really, of Hall of Famers around him during his magical run of success. The 11 championships, however, is the ultimate trump card. Scoreboard! Naming the Finals MVP award after him is a nice touch for the game's most incomparable winner.

2. Wilt Chamberlain. A one-man job stimulus package for statisticians who spent half a professional lifetime just keeping track of it all. Averaging close to 40 and 25 boards against the great Russell himself is almost enough to make me stop typing. The 100-point game in Hershey, the 50-point AVERAGE, averaging more than 48 minutes a game, then leading the league in assists because he said he could ... if any legend lives forever, it should be his.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The bridge between eras, with the most unstoppable shot of all time, one that has never been replicated, the Skyhook. Six titles (thanks in no small measure to Magic), six regular-season MVP awards and the most points ever will have him higher on some lists, but he mailed in some games before Magic arrived in L.A., and his cold, off-putting style with the media made him harder to root for.

4. Jerry West. If Red Auerbach had not been clever and colorblind enough to assemble the Celtics as he did, Zeke from Cabin Creek literally could have won 7, 8, even 9 titles instead of his one in 1972. Along with Magic, Bird, Kobe and MJ, one of the five greatest and most willful competitors in NBA history, with the prettiest jump shot. In one Finals he averaged 40 against the Celtics and still lost. It is not for nothing he is called The Logo.

5. Elgin Baylor. Among non-centers, the NBA's first true scoring machine. He stood only 6-5 going on unstoppable, with a nervous tic that made his head fakes even more impossible to guard. I'd love to see him in today's game when half the YWCA touches send you to the foul line.

Honorable Mention: George Mikan, Bob Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Pete Maravich, John Havlicek, Rick Barry and Julius Erving.

I think this is a good list except for number 5. I would put Hakeem Olajuwon at number 5. Akeem had the total package. Was the defensive player of the year for 2 years and was a better all around basketball player than both Shaq and Tim. He averaged 3.1 blocks for his career and also averaged 1.75 steals a game. The guy had no weakness and even shot freethrows better. Not much, but better.

[stretch]

Yeah and Wilt outplayed him head to head in that series.

Prove it.


The teams he beat in the finals were just as stacked. And if it wasn't for injuries he could be rocking 7 rings instead of 5.

I love Worthy but Magic made him look alot better than he was IMO. If Worthy was on a lesser team he would probably not be in the HOF. Magic also extended Kareem's career by 5-6 years at least.

Keep in mind he played in a fucking shitty western conference. I agree Magic helped make his team better, but he still couldn't play defense or shoot for shit. His size is what made him great. Had he been 6-2 or 6-3, he would have just been a good PG, but nothing special. He wasn't exceptionally skilled in a lot of areas.

[DPG21920]

I think this is a good list except for number 5. I would put Hakeem Olajuwon at number 5. Akeem had the total package. Was the defensive player of the year for 2 years and was a better all around basketball player than both Shaq and Tim. He averaged 3.1 blocks for his career and also averaged 1.75 steals a game. The guy had no weakness and even shot freethrows better. Not much, but better.

Why do you think Kobe should be ahead of Shaq and Tim?

[resistanze]

Because Kobe won two days ago, duh!

[LakeShow]

Why do you think Kobe should be ahead of Shaq and Tim?

He's a better all around player. Kobe has already matched them in titles but I don't feel that should matter. We're talking about the best of the best, skill wise and accomplishments. His 81 point game is second only to Wilt Chamberlains 100 point game and the 62 points in 3 quarters was a remarkable feat as well. Kobe has set countless records that neither Tim or shaq can compete with.

[DPG21920]

He's a better all around player. Kobe has already matched them in titles but I don't feel that should matter. We're talking about the best of the best, skill wise and accomplishments. His 81 point game is second only to Wilt Chamberlains 100 point game and the 62 points in 3 quarters was a remarkable feat as well. Kobe has set countless records that neither Tim or shaq can compete with.

Do finals MVP's and regular season MVP's and All-Defensive Teams and All-NBA teams matter?

What about anchoring defenses and being the go to guy on the championship teams?

[sonic21]

He's a better all around player. Kobe has already matched them in titles but I don't feel that should matter. We're talking about the best of the best, skill wise and accomplishments. His 81 point game is second only to Wilt Chamberlains 100 point game and the 62 points in 3 quarters was a remarkable feat as well. Kobe has set countless records that neither Tim or shaq can compete with.

we can't compare great players based on regular seasons.
in the playoffs:
shaq > kobe
duncan > kobe

[DPG21920]

Even in the regular season, I am sure Tim's regular season win % and playoff appearances are higher than Kobe's.

[LakeShow]

Do finals MVP's and regular season MVP's and All-Defensive Teams and All-NBA teams matter?

What about anchoring defenses and being the go to guy on the championship teams?

The skill level of Kobe vs. Shaq/Duncan is not even close. Regular season or Playoffs. Kobe has always been the goto guy on the Lakers, even when shaq was there. As far as PF/C goes, those two were 2 of the best, but all around baller. It's not even close. MJ, Kobe and Magic were/are in a league of their own.

[DPG21920]

Ok.

[HarlemHeat37]

the skill level argument is the funniest..I guess Rafer Alston is better than Shaq..

I've still yet to hear a legit argument for Kobe over Shaq or Duncan..

they both have him beat in accolades, accomplishments, winning, play in the playoffs and the finals, and it's a well-known fact that big men have more impact on the game..

[baseline bum]

The skill level of Kobe vs. Shaq/Duncan is not even close. Regular season or Playoffs. Kobe has always been the goto guy on the Lakers, even when shaq was there. As far as PF/C goes, those two were 2 of the best, but all around baller. It's not even close. MJ, Kobe and Magic were/are in a league of their own.

Another fucking ignorant Laker fan doesn't even know his own team :lmao




Here is my problem with Shaq being in a top 10 on any list. When the game was on the line with five minutes to go, every NBA fan knows that he wants the ball to go to his best player, Shaq was never that player on any team in his entire career. At LSU it was Chris Jackson, in Orlando it was Penny, in LA it was Kobe, in Miami it was Wade, and now in Phoenix its Nash.

Shaq was never a "money" ball player, neither was Wilt. Wilt didnt win a title until he was paired with West, and it was West that was hitting all the big shots when they won. In my opinion, Shaq is no different than the Karl Malones, and Charles Barkleys of the league, except he was paired with great co-stars.


LMAO. Revisionism at its finest. Shaq was option #1 to close game 7 in Sacramento, the biggest game the Lakers have played in the past 20 years. Of the 8 points scored in OT before the Kings started intentionally fouling with 15 seconds left, Shaq had 6 of them. Here's the video of OT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDD7_vQDhDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL7lePEaaqY

I know. Shaq wasn't the money ball player vs Portland in game 7 either, despite scoring 9 points in the 4th on 100% shooting while grabbing 5 boards. Shaw's three to tie the game had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into Shaq and him commanding the triple-team that gave him that wide-open look on the direct pass out from O'Neal. Those 5 fouls he drew on Sabonis, Grant, and Wallace had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into him relentlessly that entire quarter. The 2nd biggest Lakers game of the past 20 years wasn't a money game either I guess.

[DrHouse]

Another fucking ignorant Laker fan doesn't even know his own team :lmao

You're a Spurs fan and we have to sit here and tell you that Kobe was the closer in those years. Absolutely pathetic.

You clearly don't even remember your own teams history numb nuts.

[Allanon]

This was the pivotal year in Kobe's career. it vaulted him into consideration with the Greats.

The Kobe/MJ comparisons are still premature. And I still have Duncan/Shaq ahead of Kobe right now; albeit a slim lead.

But Kobe's got 4 rings at age 30 with the Lakers setup as contenders for the next 4-5 years. If the Lakers roll out 3-4 Rings or get a 3-peat in the next 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe retires as GOAT.

[baseline bum]

You're a Spurs fan and we have to sit here and tell you that Kobe was the closer in those years. Absolutely pathetic.

You clearly don't even remember your own teams history numb nuts.

LOL. I clearly showed in their two biggest games in the past 20 years Shaq was the rock they leaned on and the unquestioned #1 option as closer, and more stupid Kobe fans tiptoe around it and act like it happened the other way.

[BRHornet45]

There is no logical argument of Kobe being ahead of Duncan or Shaq

CO-SIGN .... anyone who puts Kobe over those two are just simply down right ignorant.

[baseline bum]

Almost as bad as the moron who wrote this article putting Bryant over Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, and Duncan is him putting West and Baylor over Oscar and Dr. J. :lmao

What a stupid homer piece of trash. Ted Green must be the LA Times' answer to Mike Monroe.

[sonic21]

If the Lakers roll out 3-4 Rings or get a 3-peat in the next 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe retires as GOAT.

Nice dream, but in this salary cap, parity era, its going to be real hard to win at least 2 championships

[LakeShow]

Another fucking ignorant Laker fan doesn't even know his own team :lmao

Fuck you, bitch! Why would the Lakers give the ball to Shaq in the clutch when all you had to do was foul him, you dumb fuck!

[baseline bum]

Fuck you, bitch! Why would the Lakers give the ball to Shaq in the clutch when all you had to do was foul him, you dumb fuck!

Why did they win two game 7s against their toughest competition in the three-peat era by dumping the ball to Shaq? Why do you ignore this fact? Did you even watch the games?

[E20]

I'd put Tim, Shaq, Hakeem, and Kareem over Kobe. Kobe over Larry Bird is an arguement that can be made, but I'm not the one to do it

All bigs too LOL

[DrHouse]

LOL. I clearly showed in their two biggest games in the past 20 years Shaq was the rock they leaned on and the unquestioned #1 option as closer, and more stupid Kobe fans tiptoe around it and act like it happened the other way.

Again if I have to explain to a Spurs fan that Kobe was indeed the closer on the 3-peat teams then that Spur fan clearly didn't watch his team very closely at all.

Kobe is the one who sank those daggers against the Spurs, NOT Shaq.

[baseline bum]

Again if I have to explain to a Spurs fan that Kobe was indeed the closer on the 3-peat teams then that Spur fan clearly didn't watch his team very closely at all.

Kobe is the one who sank those daggers against the Spurs, NOT Shaq.

Yeah, because they had a monster mismatch with guys like Derek Anderson and Antonio Daniels guarding Kobe for the first two years of the threepeat while the Spurs could throw Robinson and Duncan at Shaq. Kobe was the go-to guy versus exactly one team in the league in the three-peat.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

kobe was just a role player with too much hype during the 3-peat.

[LakeShow]

Why did they win two game 7s against their toughest competition in the three-peat era by dumping the ball to Shaq? Why do you ignore this fact? Did you even watch the games?

Who dumped the ball to him? The ball was in Kobe's hands to make a play. Just like he did against Portland and others that Horry made the game winners. What about the famous game that Horry hit the shot against Sacramento? The ball was given to Kobe to make a play, not Shaq. Do your fucking homework. When the game was on the line, the lakers made a conscious effort to keep the ball out of Shaq's hands.

[dirk4mvp]

that is one thing that bugs me, when people talk about how Nash shouldnt win MVPs since he did his work only on one end of the court... you can say the same about Magic and Bird. they were both fucking horrible defenders, and had STACKED FUCKING TEAMS. so why do they get a pass on their shit defense?



Bird was a great team defender and tried to play D. Nash, uh, isn't and, uh doesn't.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

What about the famous game that Horry hit the shot against Sacramento? The ball was given to Kobe to make a play, not Shaq.

no, phil wanted me to have the ball, but kobe wanted to be the man. He missed a lay-up and horry save his sorry a$$

[LakeShow]

no, phil wanted me to have the ball, but kobe wanted to be the man. He missed a lay-up and horry save his sorry a$$

What about the put back that YOU missed right under the basket before Vlade tapped it out to Horry?:lol

[Shaquille O'Neal]

What about the put back that YOU missed right under the basket before Vlade tapped it out to Horry?:lol

i was surprised kobe missed a layup that easy, obviously i wasn't prepared

[LakeShow]

i was surprised kobe missed a layup that easy, obviously i wasn't prepared

Ok, why weren't you prepared? That's why you were there.

[baseline bum]

Who dumped the ball to him? The ball was in Kobe's hands to make a play. Just like he did against Portland and others that Horry made the game winners. What about the famous game that Horry hit the shot against Sacramento? The ball was given to Kobe to make a play, not Shaq. Do your fucking homework. When the game was on the line, the lakers made a conscious effort to keep the ball out of Shaq's hands.

Go back and watch the video of both game 7s and try to post that again with a straight face. :lol

[DrHouse]

Kobe Bryant can't win a ring without Shaq. What has LA done since '02?

[stretch]

Bird was a great team defender and tried to play D. Nash, uh, isn't and, uh doesn't.

nash is actually pretty good at drawing charges and gets steals from time to time, so since he at least puts forth effort in those areas, lets just call him a great team defender, the same way bird gets that title just because he helps other shitty defenders by double teaming their man and playing their passing lanes.

:td

getting steals by playing passing lanes does not = great defense. double team defense does not = great defense. that whole "the 80s had great team defense!" stuff is bullshit. if it was so great, then why is it that when you watch 80's games, about 90% of the shots are wide open midrange jumpers, where a defender is clearly within range to be able to contest it, yet just stands there and watches, or starts going the other way, more interested in the fast break? and why is it that Michael Jordan singlehandedly changed the way that teams play TEAM DEFENSE? cuz defense in the 80s was bullshit.

[PM5K]

1. Jordan
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Everyone Else.....

[dirk4mvp]

nash is actually pretty good at drawing charges and gets steals from time to time, so since he at least puts forth effort in those areas, lets just call him a great team defender, the same way bird gets that title just because he helps other shitty defenders by double teaming their man and playing their passing lanes.

:td

getting steals by playing passing lanes does not = great defense. double team defense does not = great defense. that whole "the 80s had great team defense!" stuff is bullshit. if it was so great, then why is it that when you watch 80's games, about 90% of the shots are wide open midrange jumpers, where a defender is clearly within range to be able to contest it, yet just stands there and watches, or starts going the other way, more interested in the fast break? and why is it that Michael Jordan singlehandedly changed the way that teams play TEAM DEFENSE? cuz defense in the 80s was bullshit.


lol comparing Nash's d to Bird's.

[Unforgivable]

Nash draws 1-2 charges a game.....in a 90+ possession game that doesn't mean shit.

Still believe this isn't DoK?

[stretch]

lol comparing Nash's d to Bird's.

lol saying bird played d

[cobbler]

lol saying bird played d

Compared to Nash Bird and magic were ALL WORLD defenders. Come on. Magic played avg defense. Bird maybe a tad better. Nash plays NO defense. Friggen Fisher plays 10 times better D and he sucks.

[baseline bum]

:yield

[LakeShow]

Go back and watch the video of both game 7s and try to post that again with a straight face. :lol

Maybe we're talking about two different things. My point, when the game was on the line and the lakers needed a bucket, the ball was in Kobe's hands.

[stretch]

Compared to Nash Bird and magic were ALL WORLD defenders. Come on. Magic played avg defense. Bird maybe a tad better. Nash plays NO defense. Friggen Fisher plays 10 times better D and he sucks.

:flypig

You guys bash on Nash entirely too much. Now I'm not saying hes a good defender by any means... but its not very easy to play defense period if your entire team plays no defense, and you have NO interior presence. When has Nash EVER had a remotely legit defensive presence inside? The best guys he had was Shawn Bradley and an old Shaq who didn't give a shit. Not to mention their ":07 or less" playing style isn't really going to help much either. At least Magic and Bird had guys like Parish and Kareem inside. I'm sure if Nash had guys like those inside, he would look less shitty, the same way they made Magic and Bird look less shitty on defense. Lastly, Magic and Bird didn't have to deal with the kinds of talent, players, and athletes that are in the league today. Athletes like Jordan, Clyde, and Wilkins were a very small bunch, while today, there are a shitload of guys who are quick as lightning, have bullish strength, and incredible body control. Just about every team has one or two INCREDIBLE athletes with such qualities. Can you imagine Magic and Bird having to deal with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, VC, Pierce, Parker, CP3, D-Will, Joe Johnson, Devin Harris, Brandon Roy, Kevin Durant, Carmello, Josh Smith, Richard Jefferson, AI, Baron Davis, Gerald Wallace, Andre Iguodala, Jason Richardson... and those are just STARS. There are quite a few players of lesser role players who are on a similar platform of athleticism as well, such as JR Smith and Trevor Ariza.

Magic and Bird sucked at defense, no ifs and's or buts.

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao making an argument for Nash and his defense.

Magic and Bird would be worlds better on defense than Nash even in today's league.

[baseline bum]

Maybe we're talking about two different things. My point, when the game was on the line and the lakers needed a bucket, the ball was in Kobe's hands.

Seemed like the ball was in Shaq's hands when the season was on the line.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this thread and any other kobe wtf great ranks articles is as stupid as the articles written about certain players when the celtics won it last year, where does PP, KG rank.....

all off a sudden winning a championship ring, you become overrated overnight.

[diego]

i hate shaq, but to say he wasnt exceptionally skilled for his size is to sell him short. compare him to dwight howard and you will see the difference. howard gives more effort on the boards but even though he has a comparable size advantage he doesnt have the skills to use it. can you imagine pau gasol guarding shaq one on one in a 7 game series? by the second game he'd be covered in bruises wishing he was back in memphis.

and there's a reason bigs are as important as they are, otherwise kobe wouldn't have had his little tantrum. hakeem, shaq, duncan deserve a lot of credit for their all around ability and proven success. and if you want to go the most talented... where do you put david robinson or grant hill?

as for kobe... he has a chance but still doesnt belong in the top 10 no way.

[NewcastleKEG]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Tim Duncan
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Kobe Bryant

[kingmalaki]

more talented, better athlete, more rings, WAYYYYYYYY better defender.

that is one thing that bugs me, when people talk about how Nash shouldnt win MVPs since he did his work only on one end of the court... you can say the same about Magic and Bird. they were both fucking horrible defenders, and had STACKED FUCKING TEAMS. so why do they get a pass on their shit defense?

Kobe may not be as good of a leader as Bird or Magic, but he is most definitely a better basketball player.

Bird was the MVP of the league for three straight seasons. I also believe he finished 2nd in MVP voting the 3 seasons before he won his first one. That's basically saying he was arguably the best player in basketball over a 6 year span. Can Kobe, or anyone else outside of MJ and maybe Magic say that (speaking of the modern era)?

[YellowFever]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Wilt Chamberlain
5) Magic Johnson
6) Larry Bird
7) Tim Duncan
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Kobe Bryant

Wow..Magic must've been awesome to make the list twice.

[NewcastleKEG]

Wow..Magic must've been awesome to make the list twice.
haha

oops

[baseline bum]

People seriously underestimate Bird. He walked in and turned a 29 win Celtics team into a 61 win team his rookie season, when their only major addition other than Bird was having Pistol Pete come play 26 ineffective games. Bird was a jack of all trades on the offensive end, though his defense was awful after he destroyed his back in the 1983 offseason. Bird's effort and passion for the game was equivalent to Manu on steroids.

[Flux451]

LMAO. Revisionism at its finest. Shaq was option #1 to close game 7 in Sacramento, the biggest game the Lakers have played in the past 20 years. Of the 8 points scored in OT before the Kings started intentionally fouling with 15 seconds left, Shaq had 6 of them. Here's the video of OT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDD7_vQDhDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL7lePEaaqY

I know. Shaq wasn't the money ball player vs Portland in game 7 either, despite scoring 9 points in the 4th on 100% shooting while grabbing 5 boards. Shaw's three to tie the game had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into Shaq and him commanding the triple-team that gave him that wide-open look on the direct pass out from O'Neal. Those 5 fouls he drew on Sabonis, Grant, and Wallace had nothing to do with LA dumping the ball into him relentlessly that entire quarter. The 2nd biggest Lakers game of the past 20 years wasn't a money game either I guess.


OWNerisms!

[cobbler]

:flypig

You guys bash on Nash entirely too much. Now I'm not saying hes a good defender by any means... but its not very easy to play defense period if your entire team plays no defense, and you have NO interior presence. When has Nash EVER had a remotely legit defensive presence inside? The best guys he had was Shawn Bradley and an old Shaq who didn't give a shit. Not to mention their ":07 or less" playing style isn't really going to help much either. At least Magic and Bird had guys like Parish and Kareem inside. I'm sure if Nash had guys like those inside, he would look less shitty, the same way they made Magic and Bird look less shitty on defense. Lastly, Magic and Bird didn't have to deal with the kinds of talent, players, and athletes that are in the league today. Athletes like Jordan, Clyde, and Wilkins were a very small bunch, while today, there are a shitload of guys who are quick as lightning, have bullish strength, and incredible body control. Just about every team has one or two INCREDIBLE athletes with such qualities. Can you imagine Magic and Bird having to deal with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, VC, Pierce, Parker, CP3, D-Will, Joe Johnson, Devin Harris, Brandon Roy, Kevin Durant, Carmello, Josh Smith, Richard Jefferson, AI, Baron Davis, Gerald Wallace, Andre Iguodala, Jason Richardson... and those are just STARS. There are quite a few players of lesser role players who are on a similar platform of athleticism as well, such as JR Smith and Trevor Ariza.

Magic and Bird sucked at defense, no ifs and's or buts.

You dont think Magic and Bird could hang today? hahahaha

Yeah... guys like...

Patrick Ewing
Nate Archibald
Karl Malone
Bernard King
Maurice Cheeks
Mark Aguirre
Clyde Drexler
Walter Davis
Dennis Johnson
James Worthy
Charles Barkley
Marques Johnson
Sidney Moncrief
Kevin McHale
Dominique Wilkins
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
George Gervin
Robert Parish
Adrian Dantley
Julius Erving
Isiah Thomas
Alex English
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone

What a bunch of no name fodder. :lmao

[NewcastleKEG]

People seriously underestimate Bird. He walked in and turned a 29 win Celtics team into a 61 win team his rookie season, when their only major addition other than Bird was having Pistol Pete come play 26 ineffective games. Bird was a jack of all trades on the offensive end, though his defense was awful after he destroyed his back in the 1983 offseason. Bird's effort and passion for the game was equivalent to Manu on steroids.
He really does but ultimately you have to put Magic ahead of him

[duncan228]

People seriously underestimate Bird. He walked in and turned a 29 win Celtics team into a 61 win team his rookie season, when their only major addition other than Bird was having Pistol Pete come play 26 ineffective games. Bird was a jack of all trades on the offensive end, though his defense was awful after he destroyed his back in the 1983 offseason. Bird's effort and passion for the game was equivalent to Manu on steroids.

:worthy:

Bird's the reason I'm an NBA fan. Nosebleed seats in Boston Garden his rookie season. Once you see Bird play you're a fan for life. He was something. I still watch old clips of his.

[baseline bum]

:worthy:

Bird's the reason I'm an NBA fan. Nosebleed seats in Boston Garden his rookie season. Once you see Bird play you're a fan for life. He was something. I still watch old clips of his.

Bird was something. I used to hate him when I was a kid because I was an enormous Magic fan (I always cheered for the Showtime Lakers in the playoffs once the Spurs got eliminated back in the 80s), but damn he was fun to watch. Bird and Kobe are probably the two best players I have ever seen at hitting perfectly contested acrobatic jumpshots, and Magic and Bird are clearly the two greatest passers I have ever seen. I'm happy I got to see him live probably 7-8 times and got to meet him a couple of times too.

[baseline bum]

He really does but ultimately you have to put Magic ahead of him

I'd take Magic too, but it's close.

[NewcastleKEG]

I'd take Magic too, but it's close.
Maybe the fact everyone rates Magic so high and Bird in the middle/low make Magic a bit overrated ?

[YellowFever]

Why do you think Kobe should be ahead of Shaq and Tim?

Because the League has been a Guard's league for the past 30 years.

I don't like it but years from now all the hype will say Kobe was better than Shaq or TD.

And this hype will actually have people believing it's the truth.

How the hell do you think Jordan got picked as GOAT over Kareem, Chamberlin, Russell....etc.

[VivaPopovich]

jerry west and elgin baylor do not rank above Bob Cousy in Pre-Magic/Bird

[MambaJuice2408]

Jesus, how long do Laker's fans need to hold some gay ass butthurt grudge against Shaq. You just won a championship, can we please drop the whole "Shaq didn't lead the Lakers to three rings" bullshit, when anyone that watched those seasons knows that Shaq was the foundation to those titles(not to bring up that super dope 34-48 lottery season Kobe led them to the year after Shaq went to greener pastures).

How you can even mention that year proves how stupid you are.

Not only they did lose shaq. They lost Malone, Payton, Fisher just to name a few.

[stretch]

Bird was the MVP of the league for three straight seasons. I also believe he finished 2nd in MVP voting the 3 seasons before he won his first one. That's basically saying he was arguably the best player in basketball over a 6 year span. Can Kobe, or anyone else outside of MJ and maybe Magic say that (speaking of the modern era)?

So the year that Dirk won MVP, you say he was the best player in basketball? How about the year KG won it? Or the years that Barkley and Malone won it while Jordan was still around?

MVP = Best player in basketball

got it

:dizzy

[stretch]

You dont think Magic and Bird could hang today? hahahaha

Yeah... guys like...

Patrick Ewing
Nate Archibald
Karl Malone
Bernard King
Maurice Cheeks
Mark Aguirre
Clyde Drexler
Walter Davis
Dennis Johnson
James Worthy
Charles Barkley
Marques Johnson
Sidney Moncrief
Kevin McHale
Dominique Wilkins
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
George Gervin
Robert Parish
Adrian Dantley
Julius Erving
Isiah Thomas
Alex English
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone

What a bunch of no name fodder. :lmao

lol @ half of your list being big men, or players that they would never likely have to guard, or have guarding them, period. not to mention a large chunk of those guys are a couple levels of athleticism below the guys we see today.

but if we wanna go that route then i can throw in Shaq, Timmy, Dirk, Gasol, KG, Dwight, and plenty more, including less athletic guys or guys that are 2nd options in the league yet are every bit the player that some of those guys are.

[Man In Black]

C'Mon Now WTF?


3. Kobe Bryant. If his friend Shaq won't mind the ripoff here, the MTE, Most Talented Ever. And now his own extensive resume is looking more polished, with his fourth ring, first Finals MVP (a legit and important award) and finally a championship to call his very own.

5 (tie). Tim Duncan. Karl Malone scored more points and had bigger muscles, Charles Barkley was more of an uber athlete and rebound machine, but no power forward has ever played with the consistency and precision of a metronome like Duncan has. His four rings, three Finals MVPs and two regular-season MVPs speak to the profound respect the Big Fundamental enjoyed from both the media and his peers.

5 (tie). Shaquille O'Neal. Not the MDE. That was Wilt. But the greatest force of nature since hurricanes and tidal waves. The Daddy's four titles and three Finals MVP awards make Shaq, Kobe and Duncan the winningest among all active NBA players.

Let's see:
They all have 4 titles...check 1 point each TD-4:KB-4:SON:4
They all have Finals MVPs...1 point for each. TD-3. SON-3:KB-1
They have all have Regular Season MVPs...TD-2:SON-1:KB-1

So just adding just that, not including the things that Kobe & shaq can't touch like ALL-NBA and ALL-NBA Defensive team Tim's ENTIRE CAREER or Highest Team Winning Percentage since entering the NBA...Tim has 9 points. Shaq has 8 points. KBB has 6 points.

I'm no math major but...HOW DOES a lower 6 beat HIGHER numbers 8 and 9?

OH I KNOW, I write for the LA Times and have to write it this way or I'll have to deal with people fire-bombing my car!