Another manu to dc with third team

[stxspurs]

Block Buster Proposition (3 teams, 11 players)
Instead of recycling a rumor, I’m going to come up with might be a reasonable proposition.

Three team deal: San Antonio, Charlotte, Washington

Bobcats Get: Nick Young, Antawn Jamison, Etan Thomas
Bobcats Give: Gerald Wallace, Raja Bell, Nazr Mohammed

Spurs Get: Gerald Wallace, Andray Blatche, Mike James, the 5th Pick
Spurs Give: Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto, Bruce Bowen

Wizards Get: Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto, Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, Nazr Mohammed
Wizards Give: Nick Young, Antawn Jamison, Etan Thomas, Andray Blatche, Mike James, the 5th Pick

Washington Breakdown:
IN OUT
Ginobili $10.73 Young $1.715 $2.63 $3.696
Oberto $3.8 Jamison $11.64 $13.359 $15.077
Bell $5.25 Thomas $7.355
Mohammed $6.467 $6.884 James $6.467
Bowen $4.0 Blatche $3.0 $3.26 $3.52
$30.245 $30.177

In an ‘all-in’ move, Grunfeld gets veteran experience and aging toughness, especially if Bowen and Bell have any wing defense left in the tank. Along with the pick, it seems like the Wizards are giving up a ton for what could possibly be the greatest M.A.S.H. unit in the history of the league. But hey, if it doesn’t work, the Wizards get to trim a lot of salary fat ($23.78 million in expiring contracts), keep Butler and Arenas as building blocks, with money to re-sign Haywood and change leftover to reload.

Abe Pollin would be forced to part with community leader Antawn Jamison, but he’ll rest better knowing that the Gentlemen is going home to help his community of North Carolina.

Wiz Depth Chart:
PG: Gilbert Arenas; Javaris Crittenton
SG: Manu Ginobili; DeShawn Stevenson; Raja Bell
SF: Caron Butler; Raja Bell; Dominic McGuire; Bruce Bowen
PF: Dominic McGuire; Darius Songaila; Fabricio Oberto; Oleksiy Pecherov
C: Brendan Haywood; Fabricio Oberto; JaVale McGee; Nazr Mohammed

That’s a potent big three, all willing to share the ball. The Wizards also gain two solid bench defenders, both with the ability to knock down a long distance shot of the spot-up variety … a definite need.

A glaring area is obviously point guard, Crittenton serving as the primary backup to Arenas. The departing Juan Dixon’s roster spot does, however, provide an option to add a veteran floor general. In addition, the trio of Ginobili, Stevenson, and Bell have all proved somewhat capable of spot-up point duties.

I can’t exactly say that I trust that front-court either. The beloved in San Antonio Oberto is coming off a heart condition. Mohammed can score and rebound, but is allergic to D (seems like a buy-out candidate). And is Dom McGuire really ready to be a starting PF in the NBA?

On the flip side, minutes would be available for McGee and Pecherov to earn (the latter being highly unlikely), and Songaila would be the perfect intelligently passing big off the bench. Still, I understand …. somewhat suspect front line.

Charlotte Breakdown:
IN OUT
Young $1.715 $2.631 $3.695 Wallace $9.5 $9.5 $9.5 $9.5
Jamison $11.641 $13.359 $15.077 Bell $5.25
Thomas $7.355 Mohammed $6.467 $6.884
$20.710 $21.217

Charlotte is a mess. Bob Johnson is in financial trouble and looking to sell, while the city attorney is saying that the team can’t leave the Queen City. Fans are hungry for a winner, as frustrations with Michael Jordan’s leadership efforts mount. Perhaps simply making the playoffs would go a long way towards winning the locals over.

Look no further than acquiring a Carolina boy, which would fit perfectly with the franchise’s past modus operandi. Both Jamison and Young would potentially pack the scoring punch Charlotte has been missing.

While A.J. brings a fatter contract in the short term, the move allows the Bobcats to chop two years off money owed in getting rid of both Wallace and Mohammed essentially for Jamison and Etan. On the side, Charlotte would certainly be glad to exchange Bell for the youth and affordable contract years of Young.

A nucleus of Augustin, Felton, Young, Diaw, Jamison, Radmanovic, Diop, and Okafor is a better product that what was fielded in Charlotte last year. How could they not like the move?

San Antonio Breakdown:
IN OUT
Wallace $9.5 $9.5 $9.5 Oberto $3.8
Blatche $3.0 $3.26 $3.52 Ginobili $10.728
James $6.467 Bowen $4.0
$18.967 $18.528

The Spurs would lose the heart and soul of Ginobili, defensive son Bowen, and fan favorite Oberto, but would shed a lot of age, an average if 34.7 years per player (104 total years when Manu turns 32 in late July) in exchange for an average of 28 years (84 total years when Blatche turns 23 in August).

Crash Wallace gives San Antonio a diversely talented forward who is willing to rebound, defend, and run with Tony Parker. James serves as veteran scoring to supplant Parker off the bench. Blatche becomes the ‘change-of-scenery’ find who would greatly benefit from just being around Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich. And finally, the pick allows S.A. to move forward in any direction with the option to take anyone from Tyreke Evans to Stephen Curry to Jordan Hill to James Harden.

The caveat is that the Spurs take on more contract years, and they may have better options elsewhere, but with Timmy’s closing window, this trade best allows them to rebuild with youth while staying relevant (competitiveness in the West probably contingent on an additional move).

Conclusion
Still, if I’m Grunfeld, I hesitate to pull the trigger. The Wiz are giving up some decent talent with several unknown entities in return … granted with the aforementioned luxury of having $23.78 million come off the books after ‘09-10.

One enticement/addition could be for the Wiz to exchange their 2nd pick in the second round (32 overall) for Charlotte’s 12th overall (perhaps they’d rather not commit to first round money, I don’t know), where Grunfeld might hope for Tyreke Evans, Jonny Flynn, Ty Lawson or Brandon Jennings to be available.

The verdict: Make the trade and tell Flip to do his best. The Wizards would gain championship experienced veteran depth without committing themselves to long term contracts.

All this being said, I don’t want to be like Bill Simmons, throwing absurdities fueled by my own biases against the wall just because the trade happened to work in RealGM’s checker.

Part of the reason Simmons comes across as an idiot, while politicking for an NBA GM position, is the incessant insults he hurls towards current GMs, thinking he could just fleece them for valued goods. Give me a break.

In any case, I will attempt to solicit the opinions of Bobcats and Spurs bloggers to see how on or off-base I might be.

[stxspurs]

http://www.truthaboutit.net/2009/06/the-hype-nitis-surrounding-manu-ginobili-to-the-wizards-and-how-it-could-happen.html

BY WAY OF 48MOH

[ajballer4]

Blatche is a haas

[Dex]

:shootme

I can't believe we've still got a whole summer of these.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:td

[rayray2k8]

Don't get this confused people, this is pure speculation from a fan from some sit.e

[TDMVPDPOY]

Don't get this confused people, this is pure speculation from a fan from some sit.e

spurstalk? :wakeup

its going to be a fkn long summer :wakeup

[rayray2k8]

spurstalk? :wakeup

its going to be a fkn long summer :wakeup

Goddamn it, don't some of you people have better things to do with your time?? :lol
I predict about 40 proposed trade threads, 15 more manu threads, 5 troll attempts and probably 1 more drunk post from that idiot "50bestspurever".

[ElNono]

:shootme

I can't believe we've still got a whole summer of these.

+1

Can't wait for the Summer League to start!

[EricB]

Blatche and Wallace are intriguing plus the fifth pick.

[ginobilized]

I can't see the Wizards wanting to expand their roster to 17 players and only 2 pgs.

[Spurs16212]

I can't see the Wizards wanting to expand their roster to 17 players and only 2 pgs.

Bowen and Oberto are not fully guaranteed and can be bought out.... But I agree with others in saying that there are too many Manu trade threads and it is beginning to be a bit much.... If something is going to happen then it will happen on draft night but whatever the front office decides I am sure it will be for the best of the Spurs Organization..... Now with that being said... The threads have to stop......

[DPG21920]

Wallace is injured more than Manu and he is not an expiring contract in case something goes wrong like Manu.

[Sdayi135]

Why are people obsessed with getting rid of Manu for below-average 12th man material?

[ffadicted]

Spurs Get: Gerald Wallace, Andray Blatche, Mike James, the 5th Pick
Spurs Give: Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto, Bruce Bowen

That's where I stopped reading

[HarlemHeat37]

I would have to do this..

Wallace is injury prone, but we're at the point where we need to take risks to win now..he would fill our need of an athletic slasher, and he would be able to provide solid defense at the 3 spot..he would also give us a guy that can create turnovers, which we haven't had on the perimeter for a long time..

He would also make Mason look better, because he would hide his flaws better..

Andray Blatche has had some IQ and work ethic problems..again, he's a risk..but he's clearly talented..he stretches the floor next to Duncan, he's athletic, he can play defense when he puts his mind to it..he's never had the luxury of playing in a disciplined system with great players like this..

Mike James is irrelevant to the deal, just filler..

the 5th pick would obviously be huge for us as well..I won't go into detail, because I don't know who we would pick..worst-case, we can flip this pick to another team and fill a need..

Bowen probably returns..

PG Parker/Hill/James
SG Mason/Harden or DeRozan
SF Wallace/Bowen/Finley or Gist
PF Blatche/Thomas/Bonner
C Duncan/Mahinmi

13 players, somebody would be left out..

That's a very good lineup IMO, and it works for us financially..

Spurs won't trade Manu though, and I don't know if the Wiz and Bobcats would pull it..

[montgod]

10 more days till the draft... it couldn't come fast enough.

[v2freak]

I noticed over the summer people complain about trade threads and over the regular season people complain about losses. Looks like rain 365 days a year.

[mfanatic]

Let's say that did go through, then we would have the 5th pick, why not trade 5th and Bonner to POR for Batum?

Parker/Hill
Mason/Hairston
Batum/Bowen/Gist
Duncan/Ian
Haywood/Oberto

[tim_duncan_fan]

Is a little youth and athleticism too much to ask for?

[spursfan98]

you guys are such HOMERS!!!
gerald wallace, andray blatche, mike james, AND the 5th pick???
okay, we dont need mike james.. so throw him out.
but gerald walllace and andray blatche? and the 5th pick?
for 32 year old manu, 38 year old bruce, and 34 year old heart attack oberto?
you guys are retarded

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think they would do it either, but it isn't as unrealistic as you think..

Manu is still an impact player AND he's an expiring contract next year..so he's useful in more ways than one..Bowen and Oberto are both contracts, nobody is going to use them as players..in fact, Bowen would probably return here..

[DPG21920]

Why would this trade be good for the Spurs? You would plug one hole at the SF position (with an oft injured player) and a new one would spring up at the SG.

You would be essentially trading an injury risk SG for a SF and still not be able to compete for a title. Not to mention, all things equal, Manu is better than Crash. So how does this help? At least with Ginobili you have an insurance policy in the form of an expiring contract if he gets injured again. With Wallace you are on the books for 2 more years IIRC.

[coyotes_geek]

The Wizards laugh and then hang up the phone. And then they go laugh some more.

[DPG21920]

The Wizards laugh and then hang up the phone. And then they go laugh some more.

I agree, and so do the Spurs. The Bobcats would love this though.

[spursfan98]

Why would this trade be good for the Spurs? You would plug one hole at the SF position (with an oft injured player) and a new one would spring up at the SG.

You would be essentially trading an injury risk SG for a SF and still not be able to compete for a title. Not to mention, all things equal, Manu is better than Crash. So how does this help? At least with Ginobili you have an insurance policy in the form of an expiring contract if he gets injured again. With Wallace you are on the books for 2 more years IIRC.

okay, manu is 32 and a huge injury risk, bowen's 38, and oberto is done (heart problems) so they would be nice to throw away..
wallace may be an injury risk as well, but is only 26.. and when he is not injured he's as good or better than manu.. it's just that he hasn't been noticed too well because look what team he's playing for...
as for blatche, he's a 6'11"F/C, athletic and only 22 years old. we could use that.
Then you use the #5 pick to draft a good SG and you have a stronger, younger lineup than before. Not to mention we would still have the MLE to sign a role player to add to our depth.

Starting Lineup:
PG: Tony Parker
SG: Roger Mason, #5 pick, or FA
SF: Gerald Wallace
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Andray Blatche or Rasheed Wallace for the vet min. or MLE

not too shabby.. that is how it would help

Otherwise this is your starting lineup:

PG: parker
SG: mason/ginobili
SF: bowen
PF: tim
C: Fab/Kurt

[coyotes_geek]

I agree, and so do the Spurs. The Bobcats would love this though.

The Spurs pull the trigger on that deal in a heartbeat.

Obviously Manu > Mike James, but Blatche > Oberto, Wallace > Bowen and the 5th pick in the draft > nothing.

[spursfan98]

I agree, and so do the Spurs. The Bobcats would love this though.

why do the spurs also laugh and hang up the phone?

[HarlemHeat37]

Exactly..

Manu is better than Wallace, but he doesn't fit multiple needs like Crash..athletic slasher, defensive stopper, and creator of turnovers..Mason can play the 2 and just focus on his role as a shooter..

Blatche would be a huge upgrade in the frontcourt, and the 5th pick would give us another slasher/shooter/defender at the wing..

we would fill multiple needs with this trade, as opposed to "just" having Manu..

yes, it's a risk financially, but we need risks at this point, especially if the reward is this high..

[Spurtacus]

Is a little youth and athleticism too much to ask for?

Yes.

[DPG21920]

The Spurs pull the trigger on that deal in a heartbeat.

Obviously Manu > Mike James, but Blatche > Oberto, Wallace > Bowen and the 5th pick in the draft > nothing.


why do the spurs also laugh and hang up the phone?

I think Blatche is a decent player, and obviously an upgrade over Oberto. I am looking at it differently though:

Manu > Wallace (both have some injury risk, but like I said, Manu comes off the books, Wallace does not), Bowen > James. The 5th pick is all well and good, but do you really think there will be a true impact player for this year at that spot?

You are adding salary at the point for only marginal upgrades and the best player in the deal is injury prone and on the books for a while. Not to mention team moral and chemistry issues. The big man situation is still not taken care of, which is the biggest problem and now you have the same depth issue you once had at SF at SG.

That cuts into how much the team can spend on FA this year and in 2010. I do not think it is worth the money.

[spursfan98]

Exactly..

Manu is better than Wallace, but he doesn't fit multiple needs like Crash..athletic slasher, defensive stopper, and creator of turnovers..Mason can play the 2 and just focus on his role as a shooter..

Blatche would be a huge upgrade in the frontcourt, and the 5th pick would give us another slasher/shooter/defender at the wing..

we would fill multiple needs with this trade, as opposed to "just" having Manu..

yes, it's a risk financially, but we need risks at this point, especially if the reward is this high..

+1

And I think this trade keeps us contending for a championship.
Otherwise we pray that manu stays healthy at age 32, and hope we can still compete. It also helps us in the long run. Plus, what makes manu's expiring contract valuable when he will be 33 and most likely injured? His value will keep getting worse.

[spursfan98]

I think Blatche is a decent player, and obviously an upgrade over Oberto. I am looking at it differently though:

Manu > Wallace (both have some injury risk, but like I said, Manu comes off the books, Wallace does not), Bowen > James. The 5th pick is all well and good, but do you really think there will be a true impact player for this year at that spot?

You are adding salary at the point for only marginal upgrades and the best player in the deal is injury prone and on the books for a while. Not to mention team moral and chemistry issues. The big man situation is still not taken care of, which is the biggest problem and now you have the same depth issue you once had at SF at SG.

That cuts into how much the team can spend on FA this year and in 2010. I do not think it is worth the money.

That's not the point. Manu is 32 and getting older and obviously we are watching his body get older as well.
and bowen>mike james? bowen is a SF and james a PG, why are you comparing the two? plus bowen is 5 years older and has about one year left in his career. and the "2010 plan" is so overrated... Every team is going to have a lot of cap space in 2010.

[coyotes_geek]

I think Blatche is a decent player, and obviously an upgrade over Oberto. I am looking at it differently though:

Blatche is more than just an upgrade over Oberto. He's a big upgrade. He's younger, more athletic, bigger and cheaper. All due respect to Kurt Thomas, but Blatche would instantly be the 2nd best big man on the team.


Manu > Wallace (both have some injury risk, but like I said, Manu comes off the books, Wallace does not), Bowen > James. The 5th pick is all well and good, but do you really think there will be a true impact player for this year at that spot?

Someone drafted 5th or later in this draft will end up making the all star team, so yes. There will be an impact player at the 5 spot. Guaranteed.


You are adding salary at the point for only marginal upgrades and the best player in the deal is injury prone and on the books for a while. Not to mention team moral and chemistry issues. The big man situation is still not taken care of, which is the biggest problem and now you have the same depth issue you once had at SF at SG.

Team chemistry was great for the Spurs this year. It wasn't enough. The Spurs need a talent upgrade. This deal accomplishes that at several positions.


That cuts into how much the team can spend on FA this year and in 2010. I do not think it is worth the money.

If you make this deal you're not worried about 2010. In fact, in 2010 you can just re-sign Manu if he's still got game left.

[DPG21920]

Blatche is more than just an upgrade over Oberto. He's a big upgrade. He's younger, more athletic, bigger and cheaper. All due respect to Kurt Thomas, but Blatche would instantly be the 2nd best big man on the team.



Someone drafted 5th or later in this draft will end up making the all star team, so yes. There will be an impact player at the 5 spot. Guaranteed.



Team chemistry was great for the Spurs this year. It wasn't enough. The Spurs need a talent upgrade. This deal accomplishes that at several positions.



If you make this deal you're not worried about 2010. In fact, in 2010 you can just re-sign Manu if he's still got game left.

You still need a big man, unless you are claiming Blatche to be the answer next to Tim. Gooden signed and was instantly the second best bigman on the team and look where that got the Spurs.

Yes someone drafted 5th or later will make the all-star team, but when? The Spurs need significant producers now, not 3-4 years from now.

The upgrades in talent at the SF/PF positions with Wallace/Blatche do not offset enough of the terrible lack of depth the Spurs would have a SG/C in order to justify taking on this salary and abandoning the 2010 plan imo.

I think it would take a much bigger upgrade at the center position in order to abandon the 2010 plan. I do not like this trade because of the opportunity costs I am perceiving.

[spursfan98]

You still need a big man, unless you are claiming Blatche to be the answer next to Tim. Gooden signed and was instantly the second best bigman on the team and look where that got the Spurs.

Yes someone drafted 5th or later will make the all-star team, but when? The Spurs need significant producers now, not 3-4 years from now.

The upgrades in talent at the SF/PF positions with Wallace/Blatche do not offset enough of the terrible lack of depth the Spurs would have a SG/C in order to justify taking on this salary and abandoning the 2010 plan imo.

I think it would take a much bigger upgrade at the center position in order to abandon the 2010 plan. I do not like this trade because of the opportunity costs I am perceiving.

like i said, every team will have a "2010 plan" so it does not mean we will be able to get any greatness out of it

[DPG21920]

like i said, every team will have a "2010 plan" so it does not mean we will be able to get any greatness out of it

It is not about getting Lebron James or Wade. It is about having the flexibility to add a position(s) of need for one more legit title run.

I am all for the Spurs abandoning the plan in 2010, IF it is for the right players. Not injury prone Wallace and Blatche. That is not to say I do not like those players and would not take them on the Spurs in a heartbeat. I am just saying I think the plan is better than that.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Otherwise this is your starting lineup:

PG: parker
SG: mason/ginobili
SF: bowen
PF: tim
C: Fab/Kurt

Did they forget the offseason was here?

[spursfan98]

Did they forget the offseason was here?

Well, nobody has been suggesting any other reasonable deals that would keep the team contending. Signing 1 player for the MLE and a veteren for the vet min. is not going to help us contend. It has not been working lately if you haven't noticed

[pad300]

I'm not absolutely sure Blatche > Oberto. While he is younger, more athletic and bigger, he's not a lot more productive.
Consider Win Shares - Oberto put up 1.6 in 677 minutes last year, Blatche put up 1.4 in 1703. This is primarily because Oberto's EFG was .587, while Blatche shot .475 .

Similarly Mike James was less productive than Bowen, according to the Win Shares methodology, -0.1 Wins in 1575 minutes vs 2.1 wins in 1508 minutes.

Wallace produced more wins than Manu, but played many more minutes. 9.6 wins 2669 minutes vs. 4.8 wins in 1181 minutes. Per minutes, Manu is considerably more productive.

All in all, I suspect that I would want more back from a trade than the #5 to balance all this out. If offered this, and I was the spurs FO, I would make a counter proposal removing the #5 and Mike James, while adding Brendan Haywood.

[DPG21920]

Well, nobody has been suggesting any other reasonable deals that would keep the team contending. Signing 1 player for the MLE and a veteren for the vet min. is not going to help us contend. It has not been working lately if you haven't noticed

You mean for 2 years? What the Lakers had been doing did not work for 7 years.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Well, nobody has been suggesting any other reasonable deals that would keep the team contending.
What does that matter?

Signing 1 player for the MLE and a veteren for the vet min. is not going to help us contend. It has not been working lately if you haven't noticed
They haven't signed anyone for the full MLE in a while.

[coyotes_geek]

You still need a big man, unless you are claiming Blatche to be the answer next to Tim. Gooden signed and was instantly the second best bigman on the team and look where that got the Spurs.

The Spurs need another big whether they make the deal or not. But if they make the deal they have Blatche who's a hell of a lot closer to being an answer of who to put next to Tim than Oberto is.


Yes someone drafted 5th or later will make the all-star team, but when? The Spurs need significant producers now, not 3-4 years from now.

Exactly the reason to pull the trigger on the deal. Blatche would contribute more than Oberto would, immediately. Wallace would contribute more than Bowen would, immediately. Whoever the Spurs would draft at #5 would contribute more than an empty chair would, immediately. The only place the Spurs would be taking a step back at would be SG.


The upgrades in talent at the SF/PF positions with Wallace/Blatche do not offset enough of the terrible lack of depth the Spurs would have a SG/C in order to justify taking on this salary and abandoning the 2010 plan imo.

The Spurs would definitely have Mason, James and Hill to play SG. There would also be a slew of guys they could draft at #5 like Harden, Curry, Evans, DeRozan or Holiday if they were still worried about the SG position. Collectively, that's a pretty good SG situation. As good as it would be if Ginobili were there? Of course not. But it wouldn't be some huge gaping hole that would bring down the entire team.


I think it would take a much bigger upgrade at the center position in order to abandon the 2010 plan. I do not like this trade because of the opportunity costs I am perceiving.

You're assuming the Spurs would be able to land a franchise center in 2010. The only one of those is Bosh, and frankly we should all just give up that dream because he's probably going to end up in New York with Lebron.

[DPG21920]

You do not need a franchise center in 2010, just a very solid center. IMO, a very solid center+Manu+MLE SF is much better than Blatche+5th+Wallace

[DPG21920]

I would rather have the ability to bring Splitter over and still have Manu than have Blatche and Wallace.

There are a lot of players that could contribute more than Oberto+Bowen, but that does not mean you should abandon the plan for them and add on salary and handcuff your ability to sign someone else and go a different direction.

Why not sign Gooden by this logic and keep Manu? Gooden would be the 2nd best big man on the team as well and is better than Blatche.

[coyotes_geek]

I'm not absolutely sure Blatche > Oberto. While he is younger, more athletic and bigger, he's not a lot more productive.
Consider Win Shares - Oberto put up 1.6 in 677 minutes last year, Blatche put up 1.4 in 1703. This is primarily because Oberto's EFG was .587, while Blatche shot .475 .

Similarly Mike James was less productive than Bowen, according to the Win Shares methodology, -0.1 Wins in 1575 minutes vs 2.1 wins in 1508 minutes.

Wallace produced more wins than Manu, but played many more minutes. 9.6 wins 2669 minutes vs. 4.8 wins in 1181 minutes. Per minutes, Manu is considerably more productive.

All in all, I suspect that I would want more back from a trade than the #5 to balance all this out. If offered this, and I was the spurs FO, I would make a counter proposal removing the #5 and Mike James, while adding Brendan Haywood.

How accurate is win shares really going to be when trying to draw comparisons here? My understanding of that formula is that it takes a team's total wins and tries to divvy them up amogst the players on that team. If that's the case then it doesn't really seem fair to compare Blatche's win shares to Oberto's because Oberto played on a team that won 54 games this year and Blatche's only won 19. Oberto had a bigger pie to carve a piece out of than Blatche did.

[spursfan98]

You mean for 2 years? What the Lakers had been doing did not work for 7 years.

Spurs didn't and don't have the chemistry problems the lakers have had

[DPG21920]

Spurs didn't and don't have the chemistry problems the lakers have had

What does that have to do with anything? If you have a chemistry problem, solve it. Don't take 7 years to do it.

[coyotes_geek]

You do not need a franchise center in 2010, just a very solid center. IMO, a very solid center+Manu+MLE SF is much better than Blatche+5th+Wallace

You can't have "solid center" and Manu in the same equation because under your scenario we'd be cutting Manu loose in 2010 to go sign that solid center. It's "solid center" OR Manu, not "solid center" AND Manu.

[DPG21920]

How accurate is win shares really going to be when trying to draw comparisons here? My understanding of that formula is that it takes a team's total wins and tries to divvy them up amogst the players on that team. If that's the case then it doesn't really seem fair to compare Blatche's win shares to Oberto's because Oberto played on a team that won 54 games this year and Blatche's only won 19. Oberto had a bigger pie to carve a piece out of than Blatche did.

Your point is saying Blatche > Oberto, and that he would contribute more, well how accurate is that when comparing my argument? Obviously Blatche is better than Oberto and we would assume he would play more minutes (but he is known for being a bone head so Pop might grow tired of him).

But is Blatche really as good as you make him out to be? Aren't there a lot of players that are younger, more athletic and able to contribute more than Oberto out there? Should that be the only qualification on whether or not the Spurs should 1) Give up on Manu and 2) abandon the 2010 plan?

[spursfan98]

What does that matter?

They haven't signed anyone for the full MLE in a while.

1. Let's hear your plan

2. Well then maybe they should. I mean, that is the least you can do if you want a good role player to help contend. At least sign 2 for the MLE.

[spursfan98]

What does that have to do with anything? If you have a chemistry problem, solve it. Don't take 7 years to do it.

That has A LOT to do with it. Teams with bad chemistry don't win championships. And tell Phil Jackson that, not me. I am kind of glad it took them 7 years to do it though lol

[DPG21920]

You can't have "solid center" and Manu in the same equation because under your scenario we'd be cutting Manu loose in 2010 to go sign that solid center. It's "solid center" OR Manu, not "solid center" AND Manu.

Not true at all. Even if the Spurs extend Manu to the value his current contract in 2010, that would be ~10M.

By adding Blatche and Wallace, Spurs add ~13M per year going to 2012, an extra 3M per year.

The Spurs with Gino at 10M per year in 2010, would still have 14M in cap space if they pick up their options. That is significantly better than 11M when it comes to filling out a roster.

They might not be able to sign Bosh, but they can still get a much better center and they have more options if they keep Manu. They can trade him, let him expire or extend him.

[coyotes_geek]

Your point is saying Blatche > Oberto, and that he would contribute more, well how accurate is that when comparing my argument? Obviously Blatche is better than Oberto and we would assume he would play more minutes (but he is known for being a bone head so Pop might grow tired of him).

But is Blatche really as good as you make him out to be? Aren't there a lot of players that are younger, more athletic and able to contribute more than Oberto out there? Should that be the only qualification on whether or not the Spurs should 1) Give up on Manu and 2) abandon the 2010 plan?

I'm not sure I follow you. I'm only making Blatche out to be as good as being better than Oberto. Something you agree with. Yes, there are a lot of players out there younger and more athletic than Oberto. None of them are in the deal we're discussing. Just Blatche. And the evaluation isn't just about how much better is Blatche than Oberto. It's about whether or not the team is better having Manu/Bowen/Fab on it or by having Wallace/Blatche/James/#5 pick on it.

[DPG21920]

I also never said you would be cutting Manu loose. I said there is insurance to sign someone to a similar type of deal if Manu gets hurt because Manu is expiring.

Wallace, if he gets hurt, is still on the books.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

1. Let's hear your planI'm fine with signing a decent big such as Pachulia or Bouroussis, bringing over Gist, if possible move up to get Casspi, and maybe re-sign Hairston.

2. Well then maybe they should. I mean, that is the least you can do if you want a good role player to help contend. At least sign 2 for the MLE.I agree. But I don't see a reason to blow up the roster and get rid of one of our best players when you just said it's fine to use the full MLE.

[Duncan2177]

If the spurs couldn't get a big name free agent in 2003 i don't know what makes the FO think they can next year i don't think LeBron and Bosh would turn down a big market like New York just to sign with the spurs i hate to say it but i don't see it happening plus the spurs are not going to have the money to sign a max player, Screw the 2010 plan the spurs need to add the best team around Duncan right now while he is stil in his prime Duncan is not getting any younger. Just my five cents

[spursfan98]

I'm fine with signing a decent big such as Pachulia or Bouroussis, bringing over Gist, if possible move up to get Casspi, and maybe re-sign Hairston.
I agree. But I don't see a reason to blow up the roster and get rid of one of our best players when you just said it's fine to use the full MLE.

okay but do you really think zaza, bouroussis, gist, and/or casspi is what will help us contend? and why?

[DPG21920]

I'm not sure I follow you. I'm only making Blatche out to be as good as being better than Oberto. Something you agree with. Yes, there are a lot of players out there younger and more athletic than Oberto. None of them are in the deal we're discussing. Just Blatche. And the evaluation isn't just about how much better is Blatche than Oberto. It's about whether or not the team is better having Manu/Bowen/Fab on it or by having Wallace/Blatche/James/#5 pick on it.

That is exactly right and there is no argument from me that the team would be better by having Blatche/Wallace/James/#5 vs Manu/Oberto/Bowen. That I agree with.

What I am trying to say is that there are opportunity costs associated with this proposal that I feel are too negative in order to pursue. Although I agree that Blatche/Wallace/James/5th are better, that is not enough imo to help the Spurs to win a title.

Keeping that in mind, since one last legit title shot is what the goal is:

I feel that if you stick with Manu, you can still trade Bowen/Oberto (whos partially guaranteed/expiring contracts are attractive) and get a better big man than Blatche or a solid SF. You can also have some insurance in case Manu gets hurt (his expiring contract, vs Wallace who is on the books).

I also feel the 2010 plan can yield a greater opportunity to net a better package than Blatche/Wallace/5th that can actually give the Spurs a legit shot at going for a title, not just get marginally better.

[DPG21920]

okay but do you really think zaza, bouroussis, gist, and/or casspi is what will help us contend? and why?

Do you think Blatche and Wallace minus Manu will?

[coyotes_geek]

Not true at all. Even if the Spurs extend Manu to the value his current contract in 2010, that would be ~10M.

By adding Blatche and Wallace, Spurs add ~13M per year going to 2012, an extra 3M per year.

The Spurs with Gino at 10M per year in 2010, would still have 14M in cap space if they pick up their options. That is significantly better than 11M when it comes to filling out a roster.

They might not be able to sign Bosh, but they can still get a much better center and they have more options if they keep Manu. They can trade him, let him expire or extend him.

So make the trade now, plug way more holes for 2009-2010 and several seasons thereafter. Then in 2010 go get the center and try to bring back Manu for whatever is left. If he won't take it, oh well. Get someone else. That's way better than just pissing away the 2009-2010 season by not doing anything that will improve the team because of what it might do to the 2010 plan.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

okay but do you really think zaza, bouroussis, gist, and/or casspi is what will help us contend? and why?

Yes, because I believe a decent amount of the reason why we didn't go as far this year was just the coaching moves Pop made, such as moving Mason to point guard and benching Hill. He's already stated Hill will be more of a factor come next season, so that's already an offseason plus to me. I still have faith that Ian will come back into the season healthy and with a great shot to be a key rotation player, our frontcourt is worse than ever, but I think just adding one solid big man such as Zaza or Bouroussis can help out tremendously. All in all, we just need one more big man to take part of the load off Duncan, and obviously Thomas and Bonner wasn't enough. I don't count on Gist becoming a main player, but seeing him in San Antonio and getting closer to the big time would be nice to see, since I believe he has good potential. And in case Gist doesn't work out at the 3, we have Casspi.

[DPG21920]

So make the trade now, plug way more holes for 2009-2010 and several seasons thereafter. Then in 2010 go get the center and try to bring back Manu for whatever is left. If he won't take it, oh well. Get someone else. That's way better than just pissing away the 2009-2010 season by not doing anything that will improve the team because of what it might do to the 2010 plan.

Why would you want to commit to that salary when you do not have to if it won't make you good enough to legitimately win a title?

You are pissing a year away anyways because adding Blatche/Wallace won't be good enough to win more than likely so what is the point?

You can keep Manu and sign someone to the MLE, hope that Manu is healthy and have just as good of a chance to win next year with less committed salary.

[spursfan98]

Do you think Blatche and Wallace minus Manu will?

Yes I do, and for the long run too

[45 bank shot]

no way , this happens

[DPG21920]

Yes I do, and for the long run too

You think a lineup of TP,Mason,Wallace,Blatche and Tim will beat Fisher/Kobe/Ariza/Bynum and Pau or Fisher/Kobe/Ariza/Odom/Pau?

Where the Lakers either have Bynum or Odom off the bench and the Spurs have KT?

[spursfan98]

You think a lineup of TP,Mason,Wallace,Blatche and Tim will beat Fisher/Kobe/Ariza/Bynum and Pau or Fisher/Kobe/Ariza/Odom/Pau?

Where the Lakers either have Bynum or Odom off the bench and the Spurs have KT?

Well it will compete against that lineup better parker/injured 32 yr old manu/bowen/tim/KT or Oberto
Much better than that

[DPG21920]

Well it will compete against that lineup better parker/injured 32 yr old manu/bowen/tim/KT or Oberto
Much better than that

True, but do you honestly think that line up would beat the Lakers?

[SteelerNation]

Another reason to do this trade is to give Tony Parker a reason to stick around when his contract is up in 2 years. With a 26 year old Wallace and the #5 pick(who will be rounding into form nicely by then)...it gives Parker a future to believe in for the Spurs. Otherwise all he sees is Tim Duncan on his last legs and Ginobili on 2 bad wheels. The Spurs have to create some kind of youth movement to placate the new Spurs foundation which is Parker. You dont want him running off to some other team.

But no way this happens. The Wizards would shoot you the finger and never answer the phone again if the Spurs came calling. Ever.

[coyotes_geek]

Why would you want to commit to that salary when you do not have to if it won't make you good enough to legitimately win a title?

You are pissing a year away anyways because adding Blatche/Wallace won't be good enough to win more than likely so what is the point?

You can keep Manu and sign someone to the MLE, hope that Manu is healthy and have just as good of a chance to win next year with less committed salary.

Disagree. Even with a healthy Manu we weren't going to win a title this year. Wallace/Blatche/James/#5 and an MLE FA this year make the Spurs contenders again. Then in 2010 you can still offer up a contract that beats the MLE and have a nucleus that includes Duncan and a slew of under-30 year olds that will be very attractive to free agents. Putting all your eggs in the 2010 basket is extremely risky. Especially considering how much panic money will start flying around once Lebron and Bosh make their decisions.

[pad300]

How accurate is win shares really going to be when trying to draw comparisons here? My understanding of that formula is that it takes a team's total wins and tries to divvy them up amogst the players on that team. If that's the case then it doesn't really seem fair to compare Blatche's win shares to Oberto's because Oberto played on a team that won 54 games this year and Blatche's only won 19. Oberto had a bigger pie to carve a piece out of than Blatche did.

Nope, its a statistical calculation based off of boxscore values.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html
A lot of it based on Dean Oliver's book, "Basketball on Paper"

To confirm this, consider the Washinton Wizards in 08/09.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2009.html
The team only won 19 games, but the total WS for all the players is 21.2 (Pyth W 21)

Similarly, San Antonio,
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2009.html
has a total of 50.5 win shares, but actually won 54 games. (Pyth W 52)

One of the reasons the methodology is interesting is because of it's apparent accuracy, building from individual player stats to a composite that comes pretty close to accurately measuring real wins. It typically comes even closer to the pythagorean wins value ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#wins_pyth , which is predicted wins based off of points for/against for a complete season).

[DPG21920]

Disagree. Even with a healthy Manu we weren't going to win a title this year. Wallace/Blatche/James/#5 and an MLE FA this year make the Spurs contenders again. Then in 2010 you can still offer up a contract that beats the MLE and have a nucleus that includes Duncan and a slew of under-30 year olds that will be very attractive to free agents. Putting all your eggs in the 2010 basket is extremely risky. Especially considering how much panic money will start flying around once Lebron and Bosh make their decisions.

Hey look, I am all for avoiding the 2010 FA war. In fact, I have outlined some scenarios earlier advocating that trades are the best way to go, especially in this "buyers market" you will see next year.

But that is only the case if the haul is worth it. You and I are just disagreeing that Blatche/Wallace/5th is enough to abandon the plan. I don't think so all things considered and you do.

I trust that the Spurs FO knows what they are doing. They knew, or at least know now what the market is shaping up to be and the competition they will be facing. They also know their own history with regards to luring FA's. So if they think the plan is viable, then so do I.

Of course it is all circumstantial and somewhat of a gamble. You can not make teams trade with you or FA's sign with you, so who knows???

[coyotes_geek]

Hey look, I am all for avoiding the 2010 FA war. In fact, I have outlined some scenarios earlier advocating that trades are the best way to go, especially in this "buyers market" you will see next year.

But that is only the case if the haul is worth it. You and I are just disagreeing that Blatche/Wallace/5th is enough to abandon the plan. I don't think so all things considered and you do.

I trust that the Spurs FO knows what they are doing. They knew, or at least know now what the market is shaping up to be and the competition they will be facing. They also know their own history with regards to luring FA's. So if they think the plan is viable, then so do I.

Of course it is all circumstantial and somewhat of a gamble. You can not make teams trade with you or FA's sign with you, so who knows???

All fair points. I agree with you that trades would be a much better way to go.

[temujin]

Funny thread,
but I thought not really close to that famous

PARKER FOR COLLISON.

[SteelerNation]

I dont know why a lot of Spurs fans are discounting that #5 pick as if it is nothing. Here are a list of some #5 picks taken since 2000.

Dwayne Wade
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton
Kevin Love
Jeff Green

And all of those guys are having big impacts on their teams. And it also shows that there has been a high success rate for #5 picks this decade. So if the Spurs were to get anywhere near that #5 pick and another top player like Wallace for a 32 year old SG on two bad wheels, they should pull the trigger.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I dont know why a lot of Spurs fans are discounting that #5 pick as if it is nothing. Here are a list of some #5 picks taken since 2000.

Dwayne Wade
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton
Kevin Love
Jeff Green

And all of those guys are having big impacts on their teams. And it also shows that there has been a high success rate for #5 picks this decade. So if the Spurs were to get anywhere near that #5 pick and another top player like Wallace for a 32 year old SG on two bad wheels, they should pull the trigger.

Supposedly, this is the worst draft of any sport in any year ever.


That's why.

[SteelerNation]

Supposedly, this is the worst draft of any sport in any year ever.


That's why.

That'd pretty bizarre for a front office like the Spurs, who has had the success it has had in the draft over the years, to want to move up into the top 5 positions in the draft if this was the weakest in all of sports ever. And there is a lot of noise suggesting the Spurs want to move up. I think this draft has a lot of talent in it.

[DPG21920]

That'd pretty bizarre for a front office like the Spurs, who has had the success it has had in the draft over the years, to want to move up into the top 5 positions in the draft if this was the weakest in all of sports ever. And there is a lot of noise suggesting the Spurs want to move up. I think this draft has a lot of talent in it.

It does not mean there is not talent, but there is not "typical" lottery talent. This is a good buy low situation for a team that can get some help for cheap by moving up if everyone is really buying into the weakness of the draft.

Also, I do not think there is much interest from the Spurs to get the #5 from the reported offer. Not saying the Wiz did not make an offer, but I do not think the Spurs were listening.

[SteelerNation]

It does not mean there is not talent, but there is not "typical" lottery talent. This is a good buy low situation for a team that can get some help for cheap by moving up if everyone is really buying into the weakness of the draft.

Also, I do not think there is much interest from the Spurs to get the #5 from the reported offer. Not saying the Wiz did not make an offer, but I do not think the Spurs were listening.

I remember everyone saying the same thing last year. That after you got past Beasley and Rose, the talent dropped off like a stone. Well, I'll tell people right now, I would love to have OJ Mayo or Eric Gordon or Kevin Love or Brook Lopez on my team.(the other lottery picks) All these so called experts say the same thing every year and every year the draft still produces some great talent.

[DPG21920]

I remember everyone saying the same thing last year. That after you got past Beasley and Rose, the talent dropped off like a stone. Well, I'll tell people right now, I would love to have OJ Mayo or Eric Gordon or Kevin Love or Brook Lopez on my team.(the other lottery picks) All these so called experts say the same thing every year and every year the draft still produces some great talent.

I disagree, last year was pretty weak. There are some serviceable players, but no superstars. Rose could be, I doubt Beasley or Griffin will be and Love is a role player. Mayo is nice and so is Gordon and Brook had a very good rookie year, but are any of those players good enough to build around to have a legit shot at winning?

Some may helpful in being a solid contributing piece to a championship team, but I do not see a lot of franchise players.

[DPG21920]

But you can definitely get guys who can help.

[SteelerNation]

I disagree, last year was pretty weak. There are some serviceable players, but no superstars. Rose could be, I doubt Beasley or Griffin will be and Love is a role player. Mayo is nice and so is Gordon and Brook had a very good rookie year, but are any of those players good enough to build around to have a legit shot at winning?

Some may helpful in being a solid contributing piece to a championship team, but I do not see a lot of franchise players.


Time will tell, but I think that Mayo and Gordon are gonna be flat out studs. Both these guys played on horrible teams. I think both will average 20pts/gm next year. Just wait till Griffin shows up in Clipperland. Gordon is not gonna drawl the double team anymore. Did you watch the game between him and Durant last year? Durant had 46 and Gordon had 41. Game ended 107-104. That was a great game.

[DPG21920]

Time will tell, but I think that Mayo and Gordon are gonna be flat out studs. Both these guys played on horrible teams. I think both will average 20pts/gm next year. Just wait till Griffin shows up in Clipperland. Gordon is not gonna drawl the double team anymore. Did you watch the game between him and Durant last year? Durant had 46 and Gordon had 41. Game ended 107-104. That was a great game.

Gordon had a great year, so did Mayo. I could be wrong and you are right, only time will tell.

There are guys like Zach Randolph who average 20/10, but they are not what I would call studs.

[manu the best]

Block Buster Proposition (3 teams, 11 players)
Instead of recycling a rumor, I’m going to come up with might be a reasonable proposition.

Three team deal: San Antonio, Charlotte, Washington

Bobcats Get: Nick Young, Antawn Jamison, Etan Thomas
Bobcats Give: Gerald Wallace, Raja Bell, Nazr Mohammed

Spurs Get: Gerald Wallace, Andray Blatche, Mike James, the 5th Pick
Spurs Give: Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto, Bruce Bowen

Wizards Get: Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto, Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, Nazr Mohammed
Wizards Give: Nick Young, Antawn Jamison, Etan Thomas, Andray Blatche, Mike James, the 5th Pick

Washington Breakdown:
IN OUT
Ginobili $10.73 Young $1.715 $2.63 $3.696
Oberto $3.8 Jamison $11.64 $13.359 $15.077
Bell $5.25 Thomas $7.355
Mohammed $6.467 $6.884 James $6.467
Bowen $4.0 Blatche $3.0 $3.26 $3.52
$30.245 $30.177

In an ‘all-in’ move, Grunfeld gets veteran experience and aging toughness, especially if Bowen and Bell have any wing defense left in the tank. Along with the pick, it seems like the Wizards are giving up a ton for what could possibly be the greatest M.A.S.H. unit in the history of the league. But hey, if it doesn’t work, the Wizards get to trim a lot of salary fat ($23.78 million in expiring contracts), keep Butler and Arenas as building blocks, with money to re-sign Haywood and change leftover to reload.

Abe Pollin would be forced to part with community leader Antawn Jamison, but he’ll rest better knowing that the Gentlemen is going home to help his community of North Carolina.

Wiz Depth Chart:
PG: Gilbert Arenas; Javaris Crittenton
SG: Manu Ginobili; DeShawn Stevenson; Raja Bell
SF: Caron Butler; Raja Bell; Dominic McGuire; Bruce Bowen
PF: Dominic McGuire; Darius Songaila; Fabricio Oberto; Oleksiy Pecherov
C: Brendan Haywood; Fabricio Oberto; JaVale McGee; Nazr Mohammed

That’s a potent big three, all willing to share the ball. The Wizards also gain two solid bench defenders, both with the ability to knock down a long distance shot of the spot-up variety … a definite need.

A glaring area is obviously point guard, Crittenton serving as the primary backup to Arenas. The departing Juan Dixon’s roster spot does, however, provide an option to add a veteran floor general. In addition, the trio of Ginobili, Stevenson, and Bell have all proved somewhat capable of spot-up point duties.

I can’t exactly say that I trust that front-court either. The beloved in San Antonio Oberto is coming off a heart condition. Mohammed can score and rebound, but is allergic to D (seems like a buy-out candidate). And is Dom McGuire really ready to be a starting PF in the NBA?

On the flip side, minutes would be available for McGee and Pecherov to earn (the latter being highly unlikely), and Songaila would be the perfect intelligently passing big off the bench. Still, I understand …. somewhat suspect front line.

Charlotte Breakdown:
IN OUT
Young $1.715 $2.631 $3.695 Wallace $9.5 $9.5 $9.5 $9.5
Jamison $11.641 $13.359 $15.077 Bell $5.25
Thomas $7.355 Mohammed $6.467 $6.884
$20.710 $21.217

Charlotte is a mess. Bob Johnson is in financial trouble and looking to sell, while the city attorney is saying that the team can’t leave the Queen City. Fans are hungry for a winner, as frustrations with Michael Jordan’s leadership efforts mount. Perhaps simply making the playoffs would go a long way towards winning the locals over.

Look no further than acquiring a Carolina boy, which would fit perfectly with the franchise’s past modus operandi. Both Jamison and Young would potentially pack the scoring punch Charlotte has been missing.

While A.J. brings a fatter contract in the short term, the move allows the Bobcats to chop two years off money owed in getting rid of both Wallace and Mohammed essentially for Jamison and Etan. On the side, Charlotte would certainly be glad to exchange Bell for the youth and affordable contract years of Young.

A nucleus of Augustin, Felton, Young, Diaw, Jamison, Radmanovic, Diop, and Okafor is a better product that what was fielded in Charlotte last year. How could they not like the move?

San Antonio Breakdown:
IN OUT
Wallace $9.5 $9.5 $9.5 Oberto $3.8
Blatche $3.0 $3.26 $3.52 Ginobili $10.728
James $6.467 Bowen $4.0
$18.967 $18.528

The Spurs would lose the heart and soul of Ginobili, defensive son Bowen, and fan favorite Oberto, but would shed a lot of age, an average if 34.7 years per player (104 total years when Manu turns 32 in late July) in exchange for an average of 28 years (84 total years when Blatche turns 23 in August).

Crash Wallace gives San Antonio a diversely talented forward who is willing to rebound, defend, and run with Tony Parker. James serves as veteran scoring to supplant Parker off the bench. Blatche becomes the ‘change-of-scenery’ find who would greatly benefit from just being around Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich. And finally, the pick allows S.A. to move forward in any direction with the option to take anyone from Tyreke Evans to Stephen Curry to Jordan Hill to James Harden.

The caveat is that the Spurs take on more contract years, and they may have better options elsewhere, but with Timmy’s closing window, this trade best allows them to rebuild with youth while staying relevant (competitiveness in the West probably contingent on an additional move).

Conclusion
Still, if I’m Grunfeld, I hesitate to pull the trigger. The Wiz are giving up some decent talent with several unknown entities in return … granted with the aforementioned luxury of having $23.78 million come off the books after ‘09-10.

One enticement/addition could be for the Wiz to exchange their 2nd pick in the second round (32 overall) for Charlotte’s 12th overall (perhaps they’d rather not commit to first round money, I don’t know), where Grunfeld might hope for Tyreke Evans, Jonny Flynn, Ty Lawson or Brandon Jennings to be available.

The verdict: Make the trade and tell Flip to do his best. The Wizards would gain championship experienced veteran depth without committing themselves to long term contracts.

All this being said, I don’t want to be like Bill Simmons, throwing absurdities fueled by my own biases against the wall just because the trade happened to work in RealGM’s checker.

Part of the reason Simmons comes across as an idiot, while politicking for an NBA GM position, is the incessant insults he hurls towards current GMs, thinking he could just fleece them for valued goods. Give me a break.

In any case, I will attempt to solicit the opinions of Bobcats and Spurs bloggers to see how on or off-base I might be.



you worked hard for this but its a no no ...:nope .. none of this players can bring what MANU is doing for the SPURS



MANU=:lobt2:

[Spursfanfromafar]

Keeping that in mind, since one last legit title shot is what the goal is:

I feel that if you stick with Manu, you can still trade Bowen/Oberto (whos partially guaranteed/expiring contracts are attractive) and get a better big man than Blatche or a solid SF. You can also have some insurance in case Manu gets hurt (his expiring contract, vs Wallace who is on the books).

I also feel the 2010 plan can yield a greater opportunity to net a better package than Blatche/Wallace/5th that can actually give the Spurs a legit shot at going for a title, not just get marginally better.

I like your argument. Keeping Manu while adding someone out of Bowen/Oberto/(even Bonner) deals will help Spurs to be in the mix, if not contend for a title.

The trouble is to find that someone who will help right away and is someone who is better than Blatche is, and will not hurt the 2010 situation. From all reasonable deal scenarios, I can't find an inexpensive big/ SF who can be got for Oberto/Bowen who will not hurt the cap going in after 2010. That is the key, I suppose to keeping Manu.