Shaq not = To The Dream

[Killakobe81]

Olajuwon vs. Shaq: let's not talk about this again
I can't believe I'm even entertaining this debate.

One reason I don't get into these discussions with many people, is comparing players usually comes across as dissing one, and I don't really diss great players.

I prefer to celebrate greatness.

Shaq is one heck of a basketball player and will end up having a great career.

But I can't believe anybody out there who paid any attention (or has much basketball knowledge) really believes Shaquille O'Neal is a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Seriously?

All they can even remotely argue is that Shaq was a more dominant player. Which is incorrect.



• • •
There is one, and only one, important category in which Shaq tops Olajuwon, and that is in championships. He has won four and Olajuwon won only two.

Generally, we overemphasize the championship element when comparing players.

One way to look at titles when comparing players who played the same position is to determine as best you can (and this is all guesswork, isn't it?) if the team would have won the titles if you sub in the other player.

Shaq gets a full nod for four titles won. That's impressive. Whoop de darn do.

O'Neal didn't win a title that would not have been won if Olajuwon were the center on those teams instead of him. To be fair, I'm pretty sure that the Rockets would have won its two titles with Shaq in the middle instead of Dream.

(I say pretty sure, because that seven-game Finals against the Knicks was so tight that taking a step down from Olajuwon to O'Neal might have made Ewing a champion.)



• • •
Forge that Olajuwon and Russell are the two best defensive centers to ever play the game, and, comparatively, No. 3 is waaay down the chart. (And his name isn't Shaquille O'Neal.)

Forget that for every offensive move Shaq had, Olajuwon had five. Anyway, scoring is scoring, it doesn't matter whether you dream shake or power over a guy for a dunk, two points is two points, so Shaq was an offensive force.

Here is where Shaq is so much less a basketball player than Olajuwon, that we should never talk about it again.

Shaq was swept out of the playoffs six times. SIX times. Swept. And three other times his team won just one game in a series.

How in the world can you be this spectacularly dominant player when in so many years you were erased from the postseason with relative ease?

So the other team is better. Well if you're the best, most dominant player on the court, you step it up and win at least one lousy game. Jeez.

Or you suffer defeat meekly.

It happened to Olajuwon twice. Once to the Lakers in a three-game mini-series in 1991 — Magic scored 38 points in the clincher — and to Seattle, which finished 16 games ahead of the Rockets, in '96 with an overtime finale.



• • •
Did I mention in college basketball? Shaq and Olajuwon each played three seasons.

One dominant player never made it to the Final Four. The other advanced to the Final Four every season.



• • •
Now it is difficult to make too much of Bill Russell' 11 championships in 13 seasons.

One title he didn't win, he was injured — missing two games and playing just the first half of two others — and the Celtics lost to Bob Pettit, Slater Martin and the Hawks 4-2 in the Finals. The other loss came in his first year as player-coach, the Celts' first year without Red Auerbach on the sideline. It came after they had won eight in a row. Not to mention, the 76ers had one of the best seasons of all-time.

And here is a number Bob Ryan, who I have talked about basketball with on many occasions, reminded of yesterday.

Russell played in 21 winner-take-all games (NCAA Tournament games and Game 7s or Game 5s in the NBA playoffs) in his college and NBA careers.

His teams went 21-0.

Oh, his championships mean a heck of a lot.

[stretch]

:jack

[poop]

Hakeem > any other center

[samikeyp]

Olajuwon vs. Shaq: let's not talk about this again
I can't believe I'm even entertaining this debate.

One reason I don't get into these discussions with many people, is comparing players usually comes across as dissing one, and I don't really diss great players.

I prefer to celebrate greatness.

Shaq is one heck of a basketball player and will end up having a great career.

But I can't believe anybody out there who paid any attention (or has much basketball knowledge) really believes Shaquille O'Neal is a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

Seriously?

All they can even remotely argue is that Shaq was a more dominant player. Which is incorrect.



• • •
There is one, and only one, important category in which Shaq tops Olajuwon, and that is in championships. He has won four and Olajuwon won only two.

Generally, we overemphasize the championship element when comparing players.

One way to look at titles when comparing players who played the same position is to determine as best you can (and this is all guesswork, isn't it?) if the team would have won the titles if you sub in the other player.

Shaq gets a full nod for four titles won. That's impressive. Whoop de darn do.

O'Neal didn't win a title that would not have been won if Olajuwon were the center on those teams instead of him. To be fair, I'm pretty sure that the Rockets would have won its two titles with Shaq in the middle instead of Dream.

(I say pretty sure, because that seven-game Finals against the Knicks was so tight that taking a step down from Olajuwon to O'Neal might have made Ewing a champion.)



• • •
Forge that Olajuwon and Russell are the two best defensive centers to ever play the game, and, comparatively, No. 3 is waaay down the chart. (And his name isn't Shaquille O'Neal.)

Forget that for every offensive move Shaq had, Olajuwon had five. Anyway, scoring is scoring, it doesn't matter whether you dream shake or power over a guy for a dunk, two points is two points, so Shaq was an offensive force.

Here is where Shaq is so much less a basketball player than Olajuwon, that we should never talk about it again.

Shaq was swept out of the playoffs six times. SIX times. Swept. And three other times his team won just one game in a series.

How in the world can you be this spectacularly dominant player when in so many years you were erased from the postseason with relative ease?

So the other team is better. Well if you're the best, most dominant player on the court, you step it up and win at least one lousy game. Jeez.

Or you suffer defeat meekly.

It happened to Olajuwon twice. Once to the Lakers in a three-game mini-series in 1991 — Magic scored 38 points in the clincher — and to Seattle, which finished 16 games ahead of the Rockets, in '96 with an overtime finale.



• • •
Did I mention in college basketball? Shaq and Olajuwon each played three seasons.

One dominant player never made it to the Final Four. The other advanced to the Final Four every season.



• • •
Now it is difficult to make too much of Bill Russell' 11 championships in 13 seasons.

One title he didn't win, he was injured — missing two games and playing just the first half of two others — and the Celtics lost to Bob Pettit, Slater Martin and the Hawks 4-2 in the Finals. The other loss came in his first year as player-coach, the Celts' first year without Red Auerbach on the sideline. It came after they had won eight in a row. Not to mention, the 76ers had one of the best seasons of all-time.

And here is a number Bob Ryan, who I have talked about basketball with on many occasions, reminded of yesterday.

Russell played in 21 winner-take-all games (NCAA Tournament games and Game 7s or Game 5s in the NBA playoffs) in his college and NBA careers.

His teams went 21-0.

Oh, his championships mean a heck of a lot.

:tu

[Killakobe81]

Shaq was swept out of the playoffs six times. SIX times. Swept. And three other times his team won just one game in a series.

How in the world can you be this spectacularly dominant player when in so many years you were erased from the postseason with relative ease?

So the other team is better. Well if you're the best, most dominant player on the court, you step it up and win at least one lousy game. Jeez.

Or you suffer defeat meekly.

The above is why Hakeen, Duncan and Kobe are ALL better than Shaq
PLUS you could NEVER go to him down the stretch because he would DWIGHT HOWARD the FT's at an EVEN WORSE rate ....
Shaq = Barry sanders great but when it came to the clutch (for Barry the goaline for Shaq ft's late game shots) he could not come through ...

Top 5 player no way ....but he was the most dominat paint player in NBA history ...but the game is played outside of the blocks and at the FT line as well ...

[Killakobe81]

Kareem is the greatest I have seen ..Hakeem close 2nd ...

[pauls931]

Hakeem was like Kevin McHale on steroids... Shaq is like a gorilla on steroids. Kareem was in a league of his own.

[baseline bum]

1a) Kareem
1b) Wilt
3) Shaq
4) Hakeem

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lol Hakeem had a few dominant years but not enough continuity.

[pauls931]

:lol Hakeem had a few dominant years but not enough continuity.

Too bad all those years were vs the Suns... and that Cancer from Philly Barkley...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Too bad all those years were vs the Suns... and that Cancer from Philly Barkley...


LMFAO calling Barkley a cancer. If Danny Manning was healthy in 1995 Suns beat the Rockets. Not Barkley's fault.

[Muser]

So you don't think Nash is a cancer, but you think Barkley was? Wow...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So you don't think Nash is a cancer, but you think Barkley was? Wow...


Seriously. At least Barkley got the team to the finals.

[pauls931]

So you don't think Nash is a cancer, but you think Barkley was? Wow...

Both have the same number of titles, both had seasons with key players missing. Also I wrote that just to piss DoK off.

[baseline bum]

There is one, and only one, important category in which Shaq tops Olajuwon, and that is in championships. He has won four and Olajuwon won only two.


Not quite. Since Shaq is 37, I'll compare his numbers to Hakeem's up to the age 37 (I don't want his last two years to skew the numbers).

PPG: Shaq: 24.7, Hakeem: 23.1
REB: Shaq: 11.2,Hakeem: 11.6
FG%: Shaq: 58.2%, Hakeem: 51.3%
BLK: Shaq: 2.3, Hakeem: 3.26
AST: Shaq: 2.6, Hakeem: 2.6
STL: Shaq: 0.6, Hakeem: 1.8

Close, but I'll take Shaq (though you can't really go wrong either way).



Shaq was swept out of the playoffs six times. SIX times. Swept. And three other times his team won just one game in a series.

How in the world can you be this spectacularly dominant player when in so many years you were erased from the postseason with relative ease?

So the other team is better. Well if you're the best, most dominant player on the court, you step it up and win at least one lousy game. Jeez.

Or you suffer defeat meekly.


Up to age 37, Hakeem missed the playoffs twice (1992 and 2000), Shaq twice (1993 and 2009). Shaq's been knocked out of the playoffs in the first round 3 times (1994, 2007, and 2008), while Hakeem was knocked out in the first 6 times (1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1998, 1999).

[mavs>spurs2]

Hakeem from 93-95 is the 2nd greatest player of all time. Please GTFO with that Wilt and Bill Russel shit. Call me when there are pterodactyls flying around outside meaning we've hit a time warp and I'll reconsider.

[baseline bum]

Hakeem from 93-95 is the 2nd greatest player of all time. Please GTFO with that Wilt and Bill Russel shit. Call me when there are pterodactyls flying around outside meaning we've hit a time warp and I'll reconsider.

Put Wilt in that timewarp and he's easily 1st Team All-NBA and DPOY today.

[mavs>spurs2]

He didn't have any post moves outside of "jump really high and reaching over the defender to lay the ball in" and his moves and release were slow. I'm not so sure that he'd be very dominant at all. And besides there's no real way to tell.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bill Russell is extremely overrated.

[ambchang]

I can't help but think that this is some way of dissing Shaq to make Kobe's 1st 3 championship more significant on Kobe's resume.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Both have the same number of titles, both had seasons with key players missing.


What about finals appearances?

Also the 1993 Suns would have dominated if they played in the 2005-2007 era. On the flip side the 2005-2007 Suns would have gotten their shit pushed in if they played from 1993-1995.

[lefty]

For me it's a toss up : Hakeem or Kareem?


Both ahead of their time, amazing players

[baseline bum]

He didn't have any post moves outside of "jump really high and reaching over the defender to lay the ball in" and his moves and release were slow. I'm not so sure that he'd be very dominant at all. And besides there's no real way to tell.

And he'd still be able to do that move today with ease, since he was 7'1" and had a huge wingspan. Wilt was an athletic freak in the 60s. Could you imagine him now with modern weight training techniques and medical procedures that would've let him continue to play at a high level after screwing his knee?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

LOL Shaq vs. hakeem isn't even an argument.

[Killakobe81]

I can't help but think that this is some way of dissing Shaq to make Kobe's 1st 3 championship more significant on Kobe's resume.

I will agree there is some argument to that (for me) but at the same time that's not my article. I just posted it here because of that Slam rankings posted last week ...also the arguments made for SHAQ here being the best center and like the writer said it doesn't mean I dont think Shaq wasn't great but his flaws ...pnr defense, FT shooting lack of post moves made Kobe more relevant and critical to Shaq winning. He needed Kobe to win his first 3 and Wade to be incredible to win his 4th. Those are the facts Just like Kobe had not won one without SHAQ ...
Now that has changed a logical person would either conclude that they need each other or Shaq needs more help than Kobe because Gasol is not equal to Wade or Kobe as players but Kobe won with Gasol as his wingman SHAQ needed a top 3 perimeter player for all 4 rings and his Finals Sweep (penny) ...those that say he is better than Hakeem, Duncan or Kobe ...please argue or refute that.
Personally I dont care who on here ranks Kobe below Shaq becuase i think when both careers are over despite his flaws persoanlly and professionally no one can argue that Kobe is clutch and that he squeezes every drop out of his talent.
My problem with SHAQ is he has not done that. If he has Kobe's focus or MJ's heart and will and had dedicated as much energy to his game, FT's and defense as he does to taking shots at people he would have left Duncan, Hakeem and MAYBE Kareem in his wake as the MDE Center but we all know he didn'tI lived in LA for all of Shaq's years and he got us 3 but for his gifts he should of won 5 ...at least. YOu tell me if Hakeem/Duncan has Eddie Jones, van Exel, Horry etc. that they would of been swept by Utah?

Shaq is great top 3 center of his era but those that say he did it all for the first 3 titles or didn't need Kobe are either just Kobe haters, Shaq lovers or just blind to reality. He was a great Laker center but even I know Hakeem was better ...Duncan too.

[ambchang]

I personally think Shaq was massively overrated and in no way can compare to Hakeem.

He underachieved throughout his career despite his magnificent accomplishments. With his size and agility, as well as skills in the game, Shaq could easily be the greatest of all time along with the Kareems and the Wilts, but he simply isn't.

OtoH, you got the reason and the results backwards. Kobe won because of Shaq. There really is no doubt that Shaq was the driving force for the 3 peat. If Shaq actually got his ass in shape, he would have add dominant seasons like that of 2001 for longer periods of his career, but he didn't. Shaq at his peak was absolutely unstoppable on offense, and when he puts his mind to it, at least above average defensively.

Kobe, at that point, was a fantastic player. Not as good as 06 Wade, and certainly not as good as 09 Kobe, but he was a worthy all-star, even all-nba player. I think these arguments should best be left at the 1 of dozens of Kobe-related threads.

Anyways, back to the topic. No, Shaq wasn't close to Hakeem, he wasn't even better than Robinson over the span of their careers. Hakeem has the #4 center of all time locked, with arguments made that he should be in the top 3. Shaq's probably somewhere between 5 and 7.

[baseline bum]

My problem with SHAQ is he has not done that. If he has Kobe's focus or MJ's heart and will and had dedicated as much energy to his game, FT's and defense as he does to taking shots at people he would have left Duncan, Hakeem and MAYBE Kareem in his wake as the MDE Center but we all know he didn'tI lived in LA for all of Shaq's years and he got us 3 but for his gifts he should of won 5 ...at least. YOu tell me if Hakeem/Duncan has Eddie Jones, van Exel, Horry etc. that they would of been swept by Utah?

His laziness guarding the P&R since about 2001 is a valid gripe, but Shaq constantly practiced his free throws when he was in LA. He was reinforcing bad form though, which is why it never showed in games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Whether or not Shaq underachieved doesn't change the fact Shaq giving 70% effort > Hakeem giving 100% effort.

[RocketsBlood]

Hakeem > Shaq

Hakeem had the total package (regular season MVP, Finals MVP, and Defensive Player of the Yr, all in 1 year) while Shaq only had offense because of power. The Dream had a mid range jumper, could block shots ask Rod Strickland, could post up and had the Dream Shake which is unstoppable, and could make free throws. Shaq was exposed and Hack a Shaq came into play...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why is it the Hakeem lovers act like being better than someone because they have way more natural talent doesn't count?

If Shaq drops 40 because of his huge amount of talent that compensates for his lack of developed skills, it's no different than Hakeem dropping 40 because of his complete developed skills that make up for his lack of talent.

[mavs>spurs2]

Hakeem owned young Shaq so bad that I just can't see him losing the battle against prime Shaq, if both were in their primes. Shaq wouldn't have a prayer of guarding him. But Hakeem could at least somewhat stand up to Shaq at the other end.

[NewcastleKEG]

My concern about Hakeem

Couldn't win before or after Jordan. Atleast Shaq was able to defeat Jordan in a Playoff series in his career. If Jordan doesn't retire do we even speak of Hakeem or does he fall out of the elite class and more along with guys like David Robinson, Charles Barkley and so on?

Hakeem joins the Rockets in 1984
84: 1st Round
85: Lost FINALS
86: Semifinals
87: 1st Round
88: 1st Round
89: 1st Round
90: 1st Round
91: --- no playoffs ---
92: Semifinals

93: Title
94: Title

95: Semifinals
96: Western Conference Finals
97: 1st Round
98: 1st Round
99: ---- no playoffs ----
00: -----no playoffs ----
01: W/Raptors .... 1st Round



That's 18 seasons
3 - no playoffs
8 - Lost 1st Round
3 - Lost semifinals
1 - Lost WCF
1- Lost Finals
2 - Won Finals


Just doesn't add up IMO. Hakeem had one of the greatest 2 year stretches in 93/94 when Jordan was retired but other than that.....a pretty disappointing career. It's almost to the point where you have to consider Hakeem was overrated?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Atleast Shaq was able to defeat Jordan in a Playoff series in his career.

Lets be honest, if the Bulls beat the Magic that year and make the finals, Houston beats them. The Bulls even with Jordan weren't championship caliber that year. Their two best rebounders were Jordan and Pippen. As good as Jordan was he wasn't going to win with a team getting as little production from the PF and C as the 1995 Bulls got.

[E20]

The Jordan arguement has no effect on Hakeem. They played in two different confrences. Hakeem didn't make it out of the Western confrence, because Jordan wasn't in the Eastern Confrence at that time.

[dirk4mvp]

Bill Russell is extremely overrated.

Most overrated player of all time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Most overrated player of all time.


For sure. He actually under achieved given his competition and his talent.

[robbie380]

Just doesn't add up IMO. Hakeem had one of the greatest 2 year stretches in 93/94 when Jordan was retired but other than that.....a pretty disappointing career. It's almost to the point where you have to consider Hakeem was overrated?

you do know what happened to the team that he went to the finals with in 86, right?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

you do know what happened to the team that he went to the finals with in 86, right?

He wasn't even the best player on that 1986 team so the fact injuries and drug suspensions might have killed them doesn't matter.

[pauls931]

you do know what happened to the team that he went to the finals with in 86, right?

Anyone not playing on boston got curbstomped that year.

[Killakobe81]

I do not think 70% of Shaq is better than Hakeem. BUT if we had more of the MVP SHAQ the 2000 Shaq then i would agree ...he is > Hakeem.
Hakeem not only had teh two great years that everyone gives him credit for watch NBA's greatest games for a series he he had aganst th Sonics th season BEFORE he won a title ....You guys make it seem he was only dominant his 2 title seasons ...

Shaq's MVP year is the only one that comes close to Hakeem's ...but playoff run wise ...Shaq has had some great ones ...and deserves props for raising hiiis game in teh playoffs ...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think Shaq is simply too large to dominate a regular season and carry it over to the playoffs. Phil says in his book he let Shaq play lazy during the regular season because he knew Shaq would be there for the playoffs, that Shaq knew his body better than anyone else did and knew what he needed to do to stay fresh for April, May and June.

It would be interesting to see how Shaq would have done if he had Phoenix's training staff his entire career.

[robbie380]

He wasn't even the best player on that 1986 team so the fact injuries and drug suspensions might have killed them doesn't matter.

lol how was akeem not the best player on that 86 team? he led them in points, rebs, blocks, and steals in both the regular season and playoffs.

[sook]

shaq is overrated as fuck

[sook]

People talk about Kobe needing Shaq, Shaq needs Kobe or Wade. He totally fucked with the Sun's system

[dirk4mvp]

Shaq needs Kobe

I forgot who won all 3 finals mvps during the 3peat.

[sook]

I forgot who won all 3 finals mvps during the 3peat.

Kobe was too young though, Shaq was pretty much the vocal leader of the team.

[21_Blessings]

Whether or not Shaq underachieved doesn't change the fact Shaq giving 70% effort > Hakeem giving 100% effort.

Shaq was a terrible pick and roll defender. So no. Hakeem in prime was just as good a scorer (that could hit free throws) as Shaq while being one of the best defenders at his position that ever played the game.

Fact is, Hakeem shit all over Shaq in the finals head to head despite Shaq having the better all around team. Shaq has the titles edge but he did have Kobe who was the best perimeter player in the league at the time. Hakeem played the bulk of his career in one of the toughest eras ever. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bad Boys etc.

Shaq gets completely overrated historically and should not be put of ahead of guys like Kareem, Dream and Wilt due to his shitty defense. There are two ends on the basketball floor. Shaq could have been the Goat but he enjoyed those Donuts too much.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

People talk about Kobe needing Shaq, Shaq needs Kobe or Wade. He totally fucked with the Sun's system


No he didn't. D'antoni has said multiple times incorporating Shaq into his offense was easy and that it helped the team.

[ambchang]

Hakeem absolutely destroyed Shaq head to head before he became an old man.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

[pauls931]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but anyone remember when they were going to have a pay per view of Shaq vs Hakeem going one on one and then it was cancelled? I can't remember why it was cancelled or if one chickened out. I was looking forward to seeing that.