Would you kill youself...

[CosmicCowboy]

If you knew you were dying of cancer and the last month or so would be particularly nasty and/or you would turn into a veg before you died?

I have had several serious conversations about this recently because I have a sister in that exact situation...a breast cancer relapse that went triple negative and there is 0 chance of survival.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would off myself before I lost control and have been surprised at the number of other people that feel the same way....I see no point in fighting the "heroic" struggle just to end up brain fucked and shitting on yourself.

So what would you do?

[angel_luv]

I wouldn't kill myself because, first and foremost, I want to be here on earth with my family as long as there is breath in my body.

Also, I do not believe there is any reason that justifies me killing myself.
I will not put my family and friends through that.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

http://g4tv.com/videos/15906/Die-Like-a-Man/

I really do think there's a market for such a service.

[BacktoBasics]

Since I believe in no after life and nothing beyond the current state of what I am. I wouldn't kill myself. Since I get one shot and one shot only at this life I'd be willing to hang on as long as I could because stranger shit has happened and sometimes people recover from the unrecoverable.

Now if I believed in all the god bullshit and an afterlife I might consider accepting a passage into a new beginning.

[BacktoBasics]

...and sorry about your sister friend.

[JoeChalupa]

If you knew you were dying of cancer and the last month or so would be particularly nasty and/or you would turn into a veg before you died?

I have had several serious conversations about this recently because I have a sister in that exact situation...a breast cancer relapse that went triple negative and there is 0 chance of survival.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would off myself before I lost control and have been surprised at the number of other people that feel the same way....I see no point in fighting the "heroic" struggle just to end up brain fucked and shitting on yourself.

So what would you do?

My brother just went through this his wife who had been ill for over 2 yrs but it wasn't cancer. They never gave her a for sure diagnosis just that her kidneys failed and she lost major weight and was very, very week although she was totally alert. Last October the doctor said she was on death's bed and only gave her a few days to live. My brother asked if she was "ready" and she said no and she lived another 7 months until her body simply gave out. Mentally she was still there but her body just couldn't continue. She did get to enjoy seeing her grandchildren a few more times before she passed and said that was precious to her.

The wife and I have talked about this and what we want if we are ever in that position but it is so hard to imagine until you are actually in that situation.
We've got living wills so any issues should be kept to a minimum.

And the last thing my brother said to his wife was...."I'll see you later".

[CosmicCowboy]

I wouldn't kill myself because, first and foremost, I want to be here on earth with my family as long as there is breath in my body.

Also, I do not believe there is any reason that justifies me killing myself.
I will not put my family and friends through that.

But would it really be "you"? most aggressive cancers attack the brain in the end and by the time the heart stops beating "Elvis has already left the building" so to speak...

[Dr. Gonzo]

I would. I don't want my family to see me laying in a pool of my own shit and unable to do anything for myself except be in pain. If I have the chance to go out on my terms, I'm going to.

Sorry about your sister. I can't imagine having to go through that with my sister.

[JoeChalupa]

But would it really be "you"? most aggressive cancers attack the brain in the end and by the time the heart stops beating "Elvis has already left the building" so to speak...

I concur.

[sonic21]

I might if I had a disease that causes the mind to deteriorate. I wouldn't want my family and friends to remember me that way.

[JudynTX]

Sorry to hear about your sister. My answer would be no. I just dealt with my mother's passing, sudden of course.

[IronMexican]

I thought stetch made this thread when I read the title.

[CosmicCowboy]

By "kill myself" I'm not talking about eating a .44....

Typically in a terminal case Hospice will set up a morphine drip for "pain" and give the patient control of the button (while they still have control)

I know several people that have done it this way and everyone just looks the other way...nobody ever says "suicide"...

I'm pushing the button when it's time...

[JudynTX]

By "kill myself" I'm not talking about eating a .44....

Typically in a terminal case Hospice will set up a morphine drip for "pain" and give the patient control of the button (while they still have control)

I know several people that have done it this way and everyone just looks the other way...nobody ever says "suicide"...

I'm pushing the button when it's time...

Is this in your will?

[JoeChalupa]

Do you have a "DNR" in your will?

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you have a "DNR" in your will?

Yeah, I have a living will and have told my family I want my finger on the button when it's time.

[z0sa]

I honestly can't say. To take your own life is quite a drastic decision.

[duncan228]

Sorry about your sister.

[angel_luv]

But would it really be "you"? most aggressive cancers attack the brain in the end and by the time the heart stops beating "Elvis has already left the building" so to speak...

I understand what you are saying.

I always want to hold out for miracles in my life. A turn around in my health when medicine had done all it could to help me is unlikely, but it is not impossible either.
I would hold on to hope and I hope my family would do so also.

I am not at all afraid to die. I know that when I do I am going to Heaven. But I am a fight to the end sort of person and so am in no rush to leave this earth.

And I am very sorry about your sister. My prayers are with you and your family.

[Kermit]

I would definitely go out on my own terms. God or no God, after-life or no after-life; I'm not suffering just so my family can cry a few more tears. I'll say my goodbyes, kiss my wife and children, and then take mass amounts of mdma, morphine, heroin, or some other drug I can overdose on through which there is no return.

[CuckingFunt]

I can't even pretend that I know what I'd do in this situation until I was actually living it, but I'm fairly certain I would opt for hospice and pain meds over aggressive treatment that had little chance of working.

As someone who had to help take care of a family member with advanced cancer (my grandmother 2 1/2 years ago, and it wasn't pretty), it would be a decision largely for my loved ones. I was sad when my grandmother passed and still miss her in my life, but it was best for all of us that her fight with cancer only lasted about six months. I know that she was miserable during that time, and my aunts, my cousin and I had to completely put our lives on hold to take care of her. Even with home health care and hospice nurses, there still needed to be two of us at her side at all times, dressing wounds, administering medications, and countless other tasks way beyond our depth. I would never want to put my loved ones through that in order to extend my life a couple of months. As much as I love and miss her, the funeral was nowhere near as painful as the weeks spent listening to her struggle for breath.

[tlongII]

Maybe if I was a cat...

[baseline bum]

Sorry to hear about your sister, CC. I wouldn't do it though, as I believe any day above ground is a good day. No way I'd ever end my own consciousness.

[Blake]

I guess it would depend on the pain level.

If it felt like someone was stabbing me in the stomach every 5 minutes, I'd probably want to go ahead and rip the plug out.

if I just simply turn into a vegetable, I've already told everyone around me that I'll leave it up to them.

[CosmicCowboy]

I guess it would depend on the pain level.

If it felt like someone was stabbing me in the stomach every 5 minutes, I'd probably want to go ahead and rip the plug out.

if I just simply turn into a vegetable, I've already told everyone around me that I'll leave it up to them.

See...that's the problem

nobody wants to be the bad guy and pull the plug.

For me, it's not about the pain but the indignity of it. I don't want their last memory of me being a glassy eyed stare as they wiped shit off my ass/nuts while changing my depends. I want to get everybody together, talk about the good times, try to have a few laughs, hugs all around, send everybody home, and then punch out privately while I still have control.

My mother is a saint and their house was the "hospice" house for at least six of my relatives. I have been there and done that for grandparents, aunts, etc. I had one aunt that was totally out of her mind for almost two years before she passed. Fuck it. I'm NOT DOING THAT.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

See...that's the problem

nobody wants to be the bad guy and pull the plug.



Yeah, it's a tough thing to wrap your brain around.

I have the right on two of my older brothers and we've talked about exactly what they want.

I imagine it's going to be one of the hardest things I'll ever do in my life and hopefully the decision will never be placed in front of me.

[Strike]

If I had a terminal illness with a slow, painful death, I'd probably do it. I don't believe that "every day above ground is a good day" if your last days are bedridden, in constant pain and not having the ability to care for yourself. Not to mention the knowledge that you're loved ones have to helplessly watch you suffer and die. And what happens if you've decided you're ready to go but no longer have the ability to punch your own ticket? I couldn't ask my mother, my father or my best friend to help me die. I don't think I could ask a loved one to carry that burden or attempt to live with it on their conscience.

If I'm ever faced with that decision, it's nice to know that the state in which I live allows doctor assisted suicide.

[Fpoonsie]

Wow. I'm really sorry to hear that, CC.

If it were me, I'd rather go out on my own terms. When my father passed, I didn't get to say goodbye to him and I STILL struggle with that to this day (it happened about 5 years ago). I have no idea what I would've said, but I hate the fact I didn't get the chance.

[Bugs]

First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your sister CC. My thoughts are with you and yours.

I understand your viewpoint though. A few years ago I came home from work and found my wife lying on the floor. She had suffered a bleeding stroke and was essentially comotose. Over the next 40 odd hours, I had to decide whether or not to remove the respirator on her. She couldn't breath on her own and left hooked up, she would not have ever regained consciousness, and probably pass away within a week regardless.

We had talked about this situation on and off over the course of our marriage and I knew exactly what she wanted me to do. And I didn't want to do it. Long story, short. In the end I followed her wishes, but not a day goes by that I don't wonder "what if?"

It sucks and I'd rather eat a bullet than have to make that call again. And yeah, I'd probably push the button to prevent anyone else from having to go through that.

[SnakeBoy]

As much as I love and miss her, the funeral was nowhere near as painful as the weeks spent listening to her struggle for breath.

That's one of the main reasons I would never kill myself. As painful as it is for family members to witness it does help people come to terms with the persons death and say their good byes. I would much rather the people who love me have the time to let go rather than just get a phone call saying he shot himself in the head and then always have questions or regret not getting to say good bye.


On the pain issue I just wanted to say that that really shouldn't be a major concern if you make you have a doctor that is good with end of life care. Alot of them aren't. When my grandmother inlaw went to hospice the doc was still giving her antibiotics for a lung infection and was only giving her codeine+tylenol for pain. My wife saw that and fired the doctor and took over her care. She pulled the antibiotics and put her on high dose morphine. This was a wednesday and she told everyone to be ready to have the funeral that weekend. She spent the rest of the time pretty much unconscious from the morphine and passed friday morning. Anyway, the moral of the story is don't trust that every doctor is the same when it comes to end of life care. Some will let you suffer alot more than you have to.


High-Dose Morphine Is Safe Pain Control at End of Life

Pain is one of the most feared symptoms for patients who are facing end-of-life issues. Management of this pain often requires high doses of morphine. Unfortunately, physicians are reluctant to prescribe these high doses because of concerns about side effects and causing premature deaths. Bercovitch and associates studied the characteristics of patients requiring high-dose morphine for pain control, the incidence of side effects and the impact on survival for patients at the end of life.

For two years, the charts of all patients admitted to a hospice program were reviewed. All patients and their families were interviewed on admission, and a drug history and complete pain assessment were obtained. Data collected included demographics, site of tumor and metastatic spread, characteristics of pain in association with morphine dose, need for breakthrough pain medications, adjuvant pain therapies and survival time. High-dose morphine was defined as the need for 300 mg or more of morphine per day. This group was divided further into patients receiving 300 to 599 mg per day and those receiving more than 599 mg per day. The morphine dosage was established by the medical director and titrated according to routine pain management parameters.

There were 453 patients who required around-the-clock morphine for pain control. Fifty-five of these patients required dosages that placed them in the range of the high-dose morphine group. The types of tumors that were more likely to require high-dose morphine were breast, gastrointestinal, genitourinary and head and neck tumors. There were no withdrawals of pain medications secondary to side effects in the high-dose group. The most common side effects recorded were constipation and nausea/vomiting. None of the patients receiving the high dose was ever observed by a health care provider to have respiratory depression related to the high-dose morphine. In addition, there were no differences in survival times when high-dose morphine groups were compared with the standard-dose group.

The authors conclude that high-dose morphine is sometimes necessary in the management of patients with advanced cancer pain and is appropriate in hospice patients who do not respond to standard therapy. These high doses of morphine can be used without concern for significant side effects, including respiratory depression. In addition, these high doses can be used when indicated without the fear of hastening the deaths of patients who are at the end of their lives.

KARL MILLER, M.D.

[Winehole23]

Rough stuff, CC. Best to you and your family.

It's not for me (personal beliefs), but I wouldn't presume to judge anyone else for doing it. If continuing to live insults a person's dignity overmuch, I can understand suicide. I don't like it, but I understand, and I think people are entitled to decide for themselves when they've had enough.

Doing it to spare others the pain, hassle and expense is more problematic IMO, because how can you really know what's in other people's minds, or decide for them what they oughtn't to put up with?



Disclosure: one of my oldest friends in the world killed himself a few years back. It wasn't health related. One thing I'd like to relate about it is that suicide is very painful to the survivors. It's hard to be stoic when someone you love kills himself.

[tlongII]

It's legal here, how bout there?

[Winehole23]

According to this source (http://www.weblocator.com/attorney/tx/law/c12.html), no.


Suicide is defined as taking one's own life. Suicide and attempted suicide no longer are crimes in Texas. However, it is a crime to intentionally aid or attempt to aid another person to commit suicide. If the assisted suicide is successful, or if it causes serious bodily injury, the crime is a state jail felony; otherwise it is a Class C misdemeanor.

[leo_d]

"However, it is a crime to intentionally aid or attempt to aid another person to commit suicide."

Does this include trying to convince the sick person that his life is no longer worth to be lived?

[Winehole23]

Maybe a lawyer can chime in on that. I'd just be guessing.

[CharlieMac]

I wanna say yes. But I'm a bit of a pussy.

[Duff McCartney]

Yes I would. LIfe is a very small and insignificant part of the universe and existence.

If every human on earth died tomorrow on the other side of the galaxy it would mean nothing. And it means nothing in the totality of existence.

I can't imagine an insignificant life such as my own would matter either. There may be 15 people crying when I decide to do it....but there'll be almost 6 billion that it means nothing to.

[SnakeBoy]

Here ya go Duff...

hkbdP7sq0w8

[florige]

Sorry about your sister.

[baseline bum]

Yes I would. LIfe is a very small and insignificant part of the universe and existence.


And it's also the only thing you'll ever know. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd rather be alive even if it meant passing a kidney stone each hour for the rest of my life (yes, I have passed one and know how extremely painful it is; I don't know if it's any comparison to cancer, but it's the closest I can relate to firsthand).



If every human on earth died tomorrow on the other side of the galaxy it would mean nothing. And it means nothing in the totality of existence.

I can't imagine an insignificant life such as my own would matter either. There may be 15 people crying when I decide to do it....but there'll be almost 6 billion that it means nothing to.


Who cares about the totality of existence? The universe (multiverse?) is too large for anyone to concern himself with anything but local observations. Why should it matter to you that you're meaningless to a guy in India or a bunch of space dust in another galaxy?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd probably fight it, because I know no other way.


Sorry about your sis, CC. :(

[spurster]

I wouldn't kill myself because, first and foremost, I want to be here on earth with my family as long as there is breath in my body.

Also, I do not believe there is any reason that justifies me killing myself.
I will not put my family and friends through that.

Maybe you would prefer to leave them with $100K in medical bills?

Ok, that was unfair, but if you give the instructions to keep you alive at all costs, that is what is going to happen.

[Sportcamper]

Cosmic- I picked up a copy of “Right Thinking in a World Gone Wrong” by Dr. John MacArthur….The book addresses controversial subjects such as these…I will be happy to mail it to you if you PM me an address…My condolences on your sisters condition…

[manufan10]

I'm sorry about your sister as well. My prayers go out to you and your family.

To the question being asked, I'm not sure. I don't think I would want to kill myself thinking about it now. However, I don't know about all the pain and suffering. I would like to see myself as a fighter and believe that a miracle could happen, so I don't honestly see myself pulling the plug. I'm not scared of dying, so it's not like I'm trying to prolong it. I'm ready to go whenever that may happen.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if i have months remaining? live the life i want and do the things i want....

pull the plug or overdose on some drugs in a sleep......

i cant see myself live like a vegetable and become a burden to the family and financially. They also have their lives to live also.

[tp2021]

I'm sorry about your sister, CC.

I'm sorry about your father, Fpoonsie.

I'm sorry about your wife, Bugs.

[Summers]

I don't know why I just got around to reading this. So sorry to hear about your sister. My own experience with this type of thing is working for a home health hospice and watching people take months to die; and then feeling grateful that my grandparents each died rather quickly after their diagnoses. We got to say goodbye and they didn't have to suffer very long. On the other hand, I have 2 little kids, so I don't know if I'd hold on until the bitter end hoping I'd get better so that I could see them grow another year.

[Spurtacus]

If you knew you were dying of cancer and the last month or so would be particularly nasty and/or you would turn into a veg before you died?

I have had several serious conversations about this recently because I have a sister in that exact situation...a breast cancer relapse that went triple negative and there is 0 chance of survival.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would off myself before I lost control and have been surprised at the number of other people that feel the same way....I see no point in fighting the "heroic" struggle just to end up brain fucked and shitting on yourself.

So what would you do?

I'm sorry to hear about your sister.

I wouldn't want to put my family and friends through the misery of watching me in misery. Some fights you cannot win and if its not winnable for me there is no way I'm going to spend time and money fighting. I say I would kill myself now...but would I have the guts to do it if my life was on the line?

[jack sommerset]

I wouldn't kill myself because, first and foremost, I want to be here on earth with my family as long as there is breath in my body.

Also, I do not believe there is any reason that justifies me killing myself.
I will not put my family and friends through that.

But you would put ur family through living like a veg and them forced to take care of you? That to me is selfish.

[jack sommerset]

I understand what you are saying.

I always want to hold out for miracles in my life. A turn around in my health when medicine had done all it could to help me is unlikely, but it is not impossible either.
I would hold on to hope and I hope my family would do so also.

I am not at all afraid to die. I know that when I do I am going to Heaven. But I am a fight to the end sort of person and so am in no rush to leave this earth.

And I am very sorry about your sister. My prayers are with you and your family.

You are not holding on for a miracle, the question is "you know u are dying"

[jack sommerset]

See...that's the problem


For me, it's not about the pain but the indignity of it. I don't want their last memory of me being a glassy eyed stare as they wiped shit off my ass/nuts while changing my depends. I want to get everybody together, talk about the good times, try to have a few laughs, hugs all around, send everybody home, and then punch out privately while I still have control.


PLUS 1.....I'm with u on that. Have some dignity if you have the chance.

[whottt]

My Aunt did the hospice thing. It was totally her call. I went and looked up some treatments for her but she wanted no part of them. She pretty much lost the will to fight and just wanted to go to sleep.


IF I was truly terminal and I knew beyond all doubt there was no way out, I'd either go morphine or else I'd do something truly memorable and thrilling, like jump out of an Airplane or from a hot air baloon into a Volcano or a Tsunami or something like that....either totally peaceful or the thrill of a lifetime before instantaneous death. Will depend on my mood and what I can get away with basically.

I know anytime I've been up high in the air or like on side of a cruise ship in the middle of the Ocean...the thought of jumping always crosses my mind, and it's only the certain death aspect of it that prevents me from doing so. It's not a morbid urge or anything like that, just a near irresistible desire to have that thrill or unique experience.


BTW, of everyone in this thread, baseline bum has the worst imagination and the most primitive thought processes concerning the term "afterlife" and just what that means. Totally boring, and not substantiated by anything in history, nature or science...

Even Einstein said mattter cannot be destoyed...


Seriously, a caveman who wipes his ass with squirrels and can't add 2+2 is smarter and more openminded about this than you are...not to mention more imaginative. Imagination being a sign of intelligence.


Why cling to your conciousness so much? You don't use it for anything except seeing obstacles and being cynical.

A Souther Baptist Preacher would probably more enjoyable to have that debate with than you.

[marini martini]

Sorry about your Sis, Cowboy. Is this the same Sis that liked taking trips to South Africa???

I definitely am going to want the morphine if I was terminal. Also I'm big on the dignity issue not to mention my quality of life. I've watched our four parents die. My MIL suffered in a hospital with cancer for 3 months, while the Dr's and hospital kept her alive with artificial means, to cash in on her medicare. My mother laid brain dead for 3 days, after a massive heart attack, and my Father and I had to put our foot down to make the Doc's pull the plug. Thank god she had a DNR. My FIL, never went to Dr.'s, was diagnosed with colon cancer at age 89. We called Hospice, and he died a week later. My Dad, also was 89 the Docs said he had congenital heart disease, went to stay in the nursing home that was attached to his apartment, hospice took over, and he died peacefully a week later, while I held his hand. I have had a couple friends die after Hospice took over. So yeah, think I'll be going down the morphine highway, when life's just not a lot of fun any more and I'm in alot of physical pain. As much as I'd like to live long enough to be a burden to my kids, just ain't gonna do that to them.:D

[baseline bum]

My Aunt did the hospice thing. It was totally her call. I went and looked up some treatments for her but she wanted no part of them. She pretty much lost the will to fight and just wanted to go to sleep.


IF I was truly terminal and I knew beyond all doubt there was no way out, I'd either go morphine or else I'd do something truly memorable and thrilling, like jump out of an Airplane or from a hot air baloon into a Volcano or a Tsunami or something like that....either totally peaceful or the thrill of a lifetime before instantaneous death. Will depend on my mood and what I can get away with basically.

I know anytime I've been up high in the air or like on side of a cruise ship in the middle of the Ocean...the thought of jumping always crosses my mind, and it's only the certain death aspect of it that prevents me from doing so. It's not a morbid urge or anything like that, just a near irresistible desire to have that thrill or unique experience.


BTW, of everyone in this thread, baseline bum has the worst imagination and the most primitive thought processes concerning the term "afterlife" and just what that means. Totally boring, and not substantiated by anything in history, nature or science...

Even Einstein said mattter cannot be destoyed...


Seriously, a caveman who wipes his ass with squirrels and can't add 2+2 is smarter and more openminded about this than you are...not to mention more imaginative. Imagination being a sign of intelligence.


Why cling to your conciousness so much? You don't use it for anything except seeing obstacles and being cynical.

A Souther Baptist Preacher would probably more enjoyable to have that debate with than you.

Blow me whott. What the fuck does the conservation of energy have to do with the physical processes in one's brain that support consciousness? Have fun imagining about spirits, but it'll turn out as well for you as when you imagined you were an astronaut or a millionaire as a child. You got real nerve calling someone unimaginative because he doesn't believe in your system of superstition. If you don't like debating me, then shut the fuck up and go bitch somewhere else.

[whottt]

blow me whott. What the fuck does the conservation of energy have to do with the physical processes in one's brain that support consciousness? Have fun imagining about spirits, but it'll turn out as well for you as when you imagined you were an astronaut or a millionaire as a child. You got real nerve calling someone unimaginative because he doesn't believe in your system of superstition. If you don't like debating me, then shut the fuck up and go bitch somewhere else.

lol!

[baseline bum]

lol!

lol

[whottt]

To understand higher levels of consciousness, you'd first have to have achieved them at some point...I'm talking about the level higher than being pissed your dog never came back.

Once you attain caveman level, perhaps then our debates will be more fruitful.

[baseline bum]

To understand higher levels of consciousness, you'd first have to have achieved them at some point...I'm talking about the level higher than being pissed your dog never came back.

Once you attain caveman level, perhaps then our debates will be more fruitful.

So higher levels of consciousness for you is thinking one survives his own death, and believing his person still exists because the matter that makes up his body survives?

[E20]

Clash of of the mega titans II

[whottt]

So higher levels of consciousness for you is thinking one survives his own death, and believing his person still exists because the matter that makes up his body survives?

I just think it's ironic that you claim to be a scientist yet write off the existence of higher planes of existence without a shred of a scientific basis for doing so. You aren't doing it based on any evidence, it is entirely an emotional reaction on your part, and totally unscientific.

It's a scientific fact that other dimensions exist.

Every thing in this world created by man, was borne in the so called nothingness of which you speak. So did they exist before man brought them into this dimension or not? Well obviously, they did, if only within the laws of nature that allow them to exist. I mean, if we forget how make everything, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for it does. The failure to show it is all ours.

Every single thing the mind concieves of potentially exists. No matter how fantastic. It's just the knowhow of proving it that we lack.

Those cutting edge man made cellphones use frequencies billions of years old, the creation of which man had nothing to do with, and if we forget how to make the actual cellphone and it returns to the nothingness from which it came, the frequencies they utilized will still exist, as will the cellphones themselves once some one reinvents them or rediscovers...



So I ask you, how did the frequencies get there?

Just as I ask you how did the spark of life get there?


Don't say they simply were, because religion can use that exact same stance, and it will have just as much basis in fact as the scientific statement does.


Who is to say that we're not the exact same thing as the cellphones? This essence that already exists, perhaps nothing more than a scientific experiement by a higher life form, wanting to see just how far we could progress with a set of rules to live by and an imagination to adapt to the environment around us. But what igf these shells we inhabit, are merely to access that life essence in this dimension. Much like those cellphones are used to access those frequencies.


You really are pretty dense, and the lacking imagination shot is a legitimate one, every scientific theory, every device invented by man, was the product of imagination, and perhaps a bit more than that, for the rules that allow them to exist were already in place, and science has done jack shit to explain why that is.

For you to know you're right, we'd have to know everything and be virtual gods of this plane, and we most certainly are not. We do not know everything, in fact we don't really know shit, as your overly literal and childlike view of anything regarding an afterlife proves.


In any case, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, we will both die regardless of our beliefs, but which one of us is going to enjoy life more?

You ever try to enjoy something when you're afraid of losing it? Pretty much impossible.

[whottt]

PS: The human brain and thought processes are a biochemical electrical dynamo. Conserve that energy.


You really are a bit of a stump sometimes base.

[monosylab1k]

AbG6b2n6UOs

[baseline bum]

I just think it's ironic that you claim to be a scientist yet write off the existence of higher planes of existence without a shred of a scientific basis for doing so. You aren't doing it based on any evidence, it is entirely an emotional reaction on your part, and totally unscientific.


Bertrand Russell trashed this argument of your's 100 years ago with his hypothesized teapot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot




It's a scientific fact that other dimensions exist.


Really. Show me where the supernatural has been proved. Or if you have it, publish so you can win the Templeton Prize. That'll net you a cool million after taxes.




Every thing in this world created by man, was borne in the so called nothingness of which you speak. So did they exist before man brought them into this dimension or not? Well obviously, they did, if only within the laws of nature that allow them to exist. I mean, if we forget how make everything, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for it does. The failure to show it is all ours.


The nothingness of which I speak? The only nothingness I have referred to here is the nothingness one feels without consciousness.



Every single thing the mind concieves of potentially exists. No matter how fantastic. It's just the knowhow of proving it that we lack.


I can conceive of a Whottt who isn't petty and doesn't try to trash other people's threads by dragging them into the dirt, but that doesn't seem to exist.



Those cutting edge man made cellphones use frequencies billions of years old, the creation of which man had nothing to do with, and if we forget how to make the actual cellphone and it returns to the nothingness from which it came, the frequencies they utilized will still exist, as will the cellphones themselves once some one reinvents them or rediscovers...

So I ask you, how did the frequencies get there?


A frequency is billions of years old? What do you even mean by that? Are you referring to something like a member of a binary star system whose radiation pulses at 3 GHz?



Just as I ask you how did the spark of life get there?

Don't say they simply were, because religion can use that exact same stance, and it will have just as much basis in fact as the scientific statement does.


What does it matter whether I know how life got here? One's explanation being wrong doesn't make your explanation (some spirit creating everything) right, but it's pretty obvious you don't understand simple logic. You're wrong = I'm right is about the most childish system of argument there is, so step down from your high horse.



Who is to say that we're not the exact same thing as the cellphones? This essence that already exists, perhaps nothing more than a scientific experiement by a higher life form, wanting to see just how far we could progress with a set of rules to live by and an imagination to adapt to the environment around us. But what igf these shells we inhabit, are merely to access that life essence in this dimension. Much like those cellphones are used to access those frequencies.


What do you even mean by this? What is an essence? Is that your $10 word for spirit?



You really are pretty dense, and the lacking imagination shot is a legitimate one, every scientific theory, every device invented by man, was the product of imagination, and perhaps a bit more than that, for the rules that allow them to exist were already in place, and science has done jack shit to explain why that is.


Requiring even a shred of evidence to believe something doesn't make one unimaginative. I cannot seriously believe you'd go buy a used car and not kick the tires, take it out on the highway, get under it and look for rust, etc... i.e., look for physical evidence that supports the dealer's claim that you should buy this car. Yet, for something vastly more important, you want to believe something that came to you not through any tangible evidence, but through personal revelation? I have read your personal revelation, and your track record isn't all too good there (Cavs will beat the Spurs in 07, McCain wins in a landslide, etc.).




For you to know you're right, we'd have to know everything and be virtual gods of this plane, and we most certainly are not. We do not know everything, in fact we don't really know shit, as your overly literal and childlike view of anything regarding an afterlife proves.


I never professed to know 100% that I'm right. Believing there is no afterlife is the only thing that makes logical sense when there is not a shred of evidence to support any other notion. Once again, I cannot believe you call me childish when you keep making the argument that not having faith in some complicated idea that leaves no trace of its existence is somehow on par with believing in it; as if an unknown, no matter how complicated it is, is a 50/50 bet. You can't seriously believe that. Anyways, it's on you and other believers to prove something, not on me to disprove your ideas.



In any case, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, we will both die regardless of our beliefs, but which one of us is going to enjoy life more?

You ever try to enjoy something when you're afraid of losing it? Pretty much impossible.

I'm not afraid of dying, because I know nothing's going to stop it from happening. I like to hike trails where I see bears and mountain lions. I like to climb mountains where one slip could easily be fatal. I like to swim in water that has sharks, because I enjoy the waves. Living life scared of death must be a horrible burden, but that's not at all the question being addressed here: I value the hell out of life, and would never willfully end it. Also, go and make a happy post every once in a while before you lecture someone about enjoying life.

[whottt]

Bertrand Russell trashed this argument of your's 100 years ago with his hypothesized teapot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot

He really doesn't. He really doesn't even begin to get it. And I don't know who he was arguing with but it certainly wasn't me.





Really. Show me where the supernatural has been proved. Or if you have it, publish so you can win the Templeton Prize. That'll net you a cool million after taxes.

Sure, anything we can't explain or don't understand, now, or in the past, or in the future. At any point.

I know they aren't going to give me a million for that, but it's an accurate description. Unless of course you change your definition of supernatural to an extremely rigid one on the fly.





The nothingness of which I speak? The only nothingness I have referred to here is the nothingness one feels without consciousness.

Have you ever been unconscious? I have. I wouldn't describe it as nothingness, and it certainly wasn't unpleasant.




I can conceive of a Whottt who isn't petty and doesn't try to trash other people's threads by dragging them into the dirt, but that doesn't seem to exist.

Sure it does, I promise you. You just need to look a little harder.




A frequency is billions of years old? What do you even mean by that? Are you referring to something like a member of a binary star system whose radiation pulses at 3 GHz?

Sure. Why not? That, and more.




What does it matter whether I know how life got here? One's explanation being wrong doesn't make your explanation (some spirit creating everything) right, but it's pretty obvious you don't understand simple logic. You're wrong = I'm right is about the most childish system of argument there is, so step down from your high horse.

LMAO, if you are saying I'm on the highhorse and having a negative, almost judgemental reaction to it, then my work here is just about done.


Amazing how scientists are just as intolerant of things that don't agree with their beliefs as religious zealots are.




What do you even mean by this? What is an essence? Is that your $10 word for spirit?


Sure, why not.




Requiring even a shred of evidence to believe something doesn't make one unimaginative. I cannot seriously believe you'd go buy a used car and not kick the tires, take it out on the highway, get under it and look for rust, etc... i.e.

Depends on how badly I needed the car.




look for physical evidence that supports the dealer's claim that you should buy this car. Yet, for something vastly more important, you want to believe something that came to you not through any tangible evidence, but through personal revelation? I have read your personal revelation, and your track record isn't all too good there (Cavs will beat the Spurs in 07, McCain wins in a landslide, etc.).

My track record is excellent, but no one is right all the time.

Besides, I never claimed I was trying to be right or accurate with thost statements.



I never professed to know 100% that I'm right. Believing there is no afterlife is the only thing that makes logical sense when there is not a shred of evidence to support any other notion.

Sure there is plenty of evidence, the origins of virtually every major civilization in the history of man can be traced to some sort belief in higher planes of existence or an afterlife.

Most of the oldest evidence of human existence is spiritual in nature.

It's almost instinctive in us. And instinct is usually there for a reason.

That there are things beyond our normal perception is fact, even science says so. Thinking that we now know of everything unseen is plain old arrogance.


Much like science is every bit as arrogant as religion is...the difference between science and religion, both want to actually be god, but at least religion admits it.


You see, on the day we can explain god, every thing he did, how he did it, do it for ourselves, on that day we will be gods ourselves. That's when we'll be able to prove it, and not before then. At that point science will claim it for it's own and it will cease to be supernatural. However, it and itself will not have changed, only our comprehension of it.





Once again, I cannot believe you call me childish when you keep making the argument that not having faith in some complicated idea that leaves no trace of its existence is somehow on par with believing in it; as if an unknown, no matter how complicated it is, is a 50/50 bet. You can't seriously believe that. Anyways, it's on you and other believers to prove something, not on me to disprove your ideas.

I can prove that civilizations that believed in god(s) of one kind or another flourished, while those that didn't did not. Crack a history book sometime.

I can also prove that spirituality and metaphysics predated science by millenia.




I'm not afraid of dying, because I know nothing's going to stop it from happening. I like to hike trails where I see bears and mountain lions. I like to climb mountains where one slip could easily be fatal. I like to swim in water that has sharks, because I enjoy the waves. Living life scared of death must be a horrible burden, but that's not at all the question being addressed here: I value the hell out of life, and would never willfully end it. Also, go and make a happy post every once in a while before you lecture someone about enjoying life.

Making happy posts isn't what makes me happy, if it was, I would.




PS: Russell was kind of vague...

Natural teapot or man made? Fully functional or merely a resemblance?

I'm going with natural and resemblance, and I assure you, by that definiton there is a subtelescopic teapot between Mars and Earth, and it was made by god, not man.

[Slomo]

Sorry about your sister CC.



I can't even pretend that I know what I'd do in this situation until I was actually living it, but I'm fairly certain I would opt for hospice and pain meds over aggressive treatment that had little chance of working.

Based on having to be there for two close members of my family I think I would do the same.


...As much as I love and miss her, the funeral was nowhere near as painful as the weeks spent listening to her struggle for breath.

I've thought about this exact same thing many times - and couldn't agree more.


...
For me, it's not about the pain but the indignity of it. I don't want their last memory of me being a glassy eyed stare as they wiped shit off my ass/nuts while changing my depends. I want to get everybody together, talk about the good times, try to have a few laughs, hugs all around, send everybody home, and then punch out privately while I still have control.
...

Difficult to be 100% sure, but this makes the most sense to me.

[baseline bum]

He really doesn't. He really doesn't even begin to get it. And I don't know who he was arguing with but it certainly wasn't me.


His argument perfectly addresses your idea that a god's existence must be disproved before it's logical to doubt it. You can't possibly live by that kind of logic: that any hypothesis is reasonable to believe only because it hasn't been disproved.




Sure, anything we can't explain or don't understand, now, or in the past, or in the future. At any point.

I know they aren't going to give me a million for that, but it's an accurate description. Unless of course you change your definition of supernatural to an extremely rigid one on the fly.


That's the lamest explanation I have ever heard for the existence of the supernatural. I'm in awe that you think anything so far unexplained has to be non-physical.




LMAO, if you are saying I'm on the highhorse and having a negative, almost judgemental reaction to it, then my work here is just about done.


Is that the white flag? You refuse to acknowledge my simple point that "you're wrong means I'm right" is a horrible system of logic?




Sure there is plenty of evidence, the origins of virtually every major civilization in the history of man can be traced to some sort belief in higher planes of existence or an afterlife.

Most of the oldest evidence of human existence is spiritual in nature.

It's almost instinctive in us. And instinct is usually there for a reason.


It is true we likely do have an instinctual predisposition towards religion, because religious beliefs are indoctrinated into children. A child instinctively treats the word of authority figures as true for the most part. I can already see your reply that kids cry to go to McDonalds, tell their parents "no" when told to share their toys, don't want to go in the bath, and so on, but those are cases when the child has something to immediately gain from his defiance. Kids generally don't play legos in the street after being told not to.

This is one of my main beefs against religion: they go after children who are at ages where they can't realistically think for themselves. Not many people above age, say 17, are going to believe the bible stories if they were told them for the first time at that age. It would be like when we're shocked at hearing a tribe in South America thinks witches fly over their crops and destroy them at night, or how some in Africa believe they can cure their HIV by having sex with (raping) a virgin, or how Islamic martyrs get 72 virgins in heaven. Those crazy ideas are quickly dismissed by any intelligent adult, but lots of people believe equally crazy things like a woman who was a virgin could give birth or that one can survive his own death that were told to them over and over at a time when they had no ability to defend themselves from it.



Amazing how scientists are just as intolerant of things that don't agree with their beliefs as religious zealots are.


This meme would have a leg to stand on if science was indoctrinated into children, but it isn't. No one takes physics classes at age 5 or reads Darwin at 10. Most scientific learning comes from the late teens and on, when the student is capable of thinking for himself and rejecting things that he feels have insufficient explanations.




That there are things beyond our normal perception is fact, even science says so. Thinking that we now know of everything unseen is plain old arrogance.


You're speculating and getting into faulty logic again. Something not being understood fully is not grounds to invoke spiritualism. Spiritualism has to stand up on its own merits, instead of sprouting up like a weed in between the gaps left by what we currently know backed by physical evidence.




Much like science is every bit as arrogant as religion is...the difference between science and religion, both want to actually be god, but at least religion admits it.


Not really. Religion teaches one to not be curious; the answer is already known. Science aspiring to be god is a ridiculous idea, as the universe is way too complicated to probably ever be fully understood between now and the time our species goes extinct. Pretty much every answer found opens up 2 new questions. To loosely quote physicist Richard Feynman, the universe is like a chessboard we watch and try to infer rules from, and when we think we have them down all of a sudden we see castling.




You see, on the day we can explain god, every thing he did, how he did it, do it for ourselves, on that day we will be gods ourselves. That's when we'll be able to prove it, and not before then. At that point science will claim it for it's own and it will cease to be supernatural. However, it and itself will not have changed, only our comprehension of it.


That's a stretch. Even if we fully understood every law of physics it doesn't mean we'd have the engineering aptitude to create everything we could conceive of with that knowledge.



I can prove that civilizations that believed in god(s) of one kind or another flourished, while those that didn't did not. Crack a history book sometime.


Crack a logic book sometime. Even if religious principles could turn Iraq into the Roman Empire, it doesn't mean religion is correct. Even worse is your invocation of numbers of civilizations. That's the kind of argument that says Obama/Bush/Clinton/Reagan/Carter/etc. was obviously the best choice because the majority of us voted for them.



I can also prove that spirituality and metaphysics predated science by millenia.


So what?



PS: Russell was kind of vague...

Natural teapot or man made? Fully functional or merely a resemblance?

I'm going with natural and resemblance, and I assure you, by that definiton there is a subtelescopic teapot between Mars and Earth, and it was made by god, not man.

Fine. There is a green-alien-made functional teapot between Mars and Earth that quickly becomes smaller as time passes by, so as to keep ahead of our telescopic technology. You cannot prove it doesn't exist.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm staying alive as long as I can... but if I'm already braindead, pull the plug.

I'm hoping that they figure out how to transfer a pseronality onto a hard drive before I get old though. :)

[CosmicCowboy]

If you little bitches want to cat fight over religion start your own thread!:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Sorry about your Sis, Cowboy. Is this the same Sis that liked taking trips to South Africa???



Yeah, shes going again next month assuming health allows...Shes having some anemia problems from the chemo they need to get straightened out...she will just go off chemo while she is there...