If Pippen >>>>> Gasol, then Kobe > MJ

[Tacker]

Yes I know Im a Bulls fan but I want to present this argument. I hope you guys can prove me wrong since it would be nice for MJ to be the GOAT but I think Kobe has something to say about this. You guys flamed me in the other thread for even comparing Gasol to Pippen. You guys made it seem like Pippen is 500x greater than Gasol and that Gasol is nowhere near Pippen. If thats true, then Kobe has won the champion with much much much much less supporting cast than did MJ. Now considering Pippen is that much good, I doubt The Bulls would have won that much games during their championship years without Scottie Pippen.. Probably a Pippen less Bulls would have gotten to 50 wins with a 4th seed or lower. With that being said Jordan would not have had 6 rings (who knows how much rings he would have had) and with his team's record not being so high, he wouldnt have won those MVPs. Most of the people's argument when comparing Jordan to Kobe is that Jordan has more MVPS more Titles, 3 peat etc.... Kobe won without much help Jordan had all the help he can get.

[BUMP]

When Kobe wins 6 titles as the lead man then we can have an agument. Right now he has only one, with a supporting cast collectively better than the Bulls had in the 90's.

[Tacker]

Right now he has only one, with a supporting cast collectively better than the Bulls had in the 90's.

Better?

Starters
Jordan > Kobe
Pippen >>> Ariza
Harper > Fisher
Gasol > Kukoc
Bynum > Longley

Bench
Kerr > Farmar
Rodman > Odom

[gaKNOW!blee]

Better?

Starters
Jordan > Kobe
Pippen >>> Ariza
Harper > Fisher
Gasol > Kukoc
Bynum > Longley

Bench
Kerr > Farmar
Rodman > Odom

So in your thread title you say Kobe > MJ, but now its MJ > Kobe? :lmao

[Tacker]

So in your thread title you say Kobe > MJ, but now its MJ > Kobe? :lmao

No I made the rosters like that from the poster's (Bump) Perspective.....

[Culburn369]

When Kobe wins 6 titles as the lead man then we can have an agument. Right now he has only one, with a supporting cast collectively better than the Bulls had in the 90's.

- "Sssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh."

- Derek Fisher - June.15.2001 - Philadelphia, PA.

[gaKNOW!blee]

No I made the rosters like that from the poster's (Bump) Perspective.....

No you didn't.

He said the Lakers had a better supporting cast and then you posted it as the Bulls having a better cast.

[Tacker]

No you didn't.

He said the Lakers had a better supporting cast and then you posted it as the Bulls having a better cast.

Exactly to prove to him that Indeed Bulls had the better supporting cast which goes against his argument

[diego]

Better?

Starters
Jordan > Kobe
Pippen >>> Ariza
Harper > Fisher
Gasol > Kukoc
Bynum > Longley

Bench
Kerr > Farmar
Rodman > Odom

having better bench players < having a strong frontcourt. and i hate these threads. as bump said, let kobe repeat last year's feat at least twice more, nevermind 5 times, before comparing him to MJ.

[Tacker]

having better bench players < having a strong frontcourt. and i hate these threads. as bump said, let kobe repeat last year's feat at least twice more, nevermind 5 times, before comparing him to MJ.

Why must a player have a lot of titles in order to be considered one of the greatest?

[Culburn369]

Why must a player have a lot of titles in order to be considered one of the greatest?

Because Media set that precedent when they took off after Jordan to make their bones. Most forget how miserable they made it for Jordan until he won that first one. Media was about to do likewise to Daddy, especially after all the stupid things the man had said, but, he won that first one in '00---defaulting Kobe with him sending Media into a three year tailspin. Lo & behold just about the time that Kobe is really going nutty nuts (Media wouldn't look at the default from 2000-2002) over this Shaq thing he ups, draws Orlando and gets straightened out. Simmons, the poor thing, he's about to do the dutch over it all. And Walton, that hump is torn terrifically twixt his son winning it and Lakers never winning it. HTF can he find peace? LMAO!

[gaKNOW!blee]

Exactly to prove to him that Indeed Bulls had the better supporting cast which goes against his argument

So you DO think Mj is better than Kobe? Even tho your thread title says the opposite?

[JamStone]

When Kobe wins 6 titles as the lead man then we can have an agument.

Agreed. You can make the claim in the title of this thread if Kobe as the go-to guy and Gasol as the second fiddle won 5 more titles. I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and say if Kobe and Gasol won three more titles, it could be a legitimate argument. But, not when it's been just one title for Kobe-Gasol compared to 6 titles with MJ-Pippen.

[Culburn369]

Duders, back away from that button that says {PANIC}. Jesus H. Christ, Kobe has 4 NBA Championships. Don't go off half cocked. Don't go nutty-nuts. Yer OK. Maybe Odom won't return. Maybe Ariza won't return. Maybe y'all will steal Phil's large chair\then maybe he won't return. It's a long way till next June. In the interim let us go hand-in-hand and enjoy this NBA Championship by the Los Angeles Lakers. It's their 15th. And at least you ain't the Phoenix, who've tried 41 times and are still bereft. So count yer blessings.

[BUMP]

Better?

Starters
Jordan > Kobe
Pippen >>> Ariza
Harper > Fisher
Gasol > Kukoc
Bynum > Longley

Bench
Kerr > Farmar
Rodman > Odom

So you admit you're wrong after 1 post?

That was easy.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So you admit you're wrong after 1 post?

That was easy.

:lmao Epic fail.

[gaKNOW!blee]

So you admit you're wrong after 1 post?

That was easy.

lol thats what I was trying to tell him, he doesnt seem to understand what i meant.

[TwinTowers]

MJ was and will always be better than kobe, I don't care about supporting casts. If I was to start a team, and I had the choice to pick either Kobe or MJ at their prime, I would pick MJ 9 out of 10 times.

[Culburn369]

MJ was and will always be better than kobe, I don't care about supporting casts. If I was to start a team, and I had the choice to pick either Kobe or MJ at their prime, I would pick MJ 9 out of 10 times.

I agree. Probably your same 9 out 10 equation, only for people would agree. I bet Kobe don't agree. It's probably never been about Daddy with him. It's probably always been about Michael and those 6 rings and the infinite growing legend. Now's he's got the solid citizen in Gasol whom he can trust to attempt it. Gasol don't hate as Kobe hates, but, Gasol understands the American game of basketball. That's a rarity in foreign players. Manu understands and thrives on it. Conversely Yao don't understand it and they eat him alive. Dirk, same thing.

[poop]

i used to think they were equal too...

then i went back and reviewed their stats and its not even close actually. Jordan's stats DESTROY kobes

[Tacker]

People are forgetting that without Pippen Jordan would have never won those titles nor won those 5 MVPs....... If you guys claim Pippen is >>>> Gasol then that just proves Kobe had less to work with to achieve his goal....

[Tacker]

So you admit you're wrong after 1 post?

That was easy.

Where do I say Kobe >> Jordan?

I said if Pippen >>> Gasol then Kobe >> MJ

To me Gasol is just as effective as Pippen was with MJ

[Tacker]

Agreed. You can make the claim in the title of this thread if Kobe as the go-to guy and Gasol as the second fiddle won 5 more titles. I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and say if Kobe and Gasol won three more titles, it could be a legitimate argument. But, not when it's been just one title for Kobe-Gasol compared to 6 titles with MJ-Pippen.

Titles doesnt prove anything.......... Robert Horry won as much Titles as both of them and I dont see him in the talks of GOAT

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Better?

Starters
Jordan > Kobe
Pippen >>> Ariza
Harper > Fisher
Gasol > Kukoc
Bynum > Longley

Bench
Kerr > Farmar
Rodman > Odom
This thread is about Pippen and Gasol, yet you compare them to other players instead of each other?

[Tacker]

This thread is about Pippen and Gasol, yet you compare them to other players instead of each other?

I normally dont like responding to your posts because everything you say is always retarded, Id rather make arguments with Intelligent people but...... Re Read post # 2 and youll see why I made that post.

[cobbler]

Agreed. You can make the claim in the title of this thread if Kobe as the go-to guy and Gasol as the second fiddle won 5 more titles. I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and say if Kobe and Gasol won three more titles, it could be a legitimate argument. But, not when it's been just one title for Kobe-Gasol compared to 6 titles with MJ-Pippen.

If its a titles thing.... the all is settled... Bill Russell is the GOAT. End of story.

[Tacker]

if its a titles thing.... The all is settled... Bill russell is the goat. End of story.

:tu

[Amaso]

You guys act like Kobe didn't average 30/7/6 in the playoffs when Shaq was on his team. You can say Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team... but he was the 2nd best player in the league if that was the case.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I normally dont like responding to your posts because everything you say is always retarded, Id rather make arguments with Intelligent people but...... Re Read post # 2 and youll see why I made that post.

That didn't answer my question, Ashraf.

[Tacker]

That didn't answer my question, Ashraf.


I normally dont like responding to your posts because everything you say is always retarded, Id rather make arguments with Intelligent people but...... Re Read post # 2 and youll see why I made that post.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Any idiot could see that the more fair matchup is Pippen/Gasol and Ariza/Kukoc.

[El Fuego]

So because you think if Pippen is better then Gasol then Kobe has to better then Jordan? what kind of messed up logic is that? Kobe is good but Jordan is the greatest of all time and Kobe isn't even the best Laker of all time. Magic Johnson holds that title. One can make the argument that Kobe isn't even a top 5 Laker. theres Magic, West, Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt.

[Tacker]

Any idiot could see that the more fair matchup is Pippen/Gasol and Ariza/Kukoc.

Bullshit Pippen was a SF and Gasol was PF

[Tacker]

So because you think if Pippen is better then Gasol then Kobe has to better then Jordan? what kind of messed up logic is that? Kobe is good but Jordan is the greatest of all time and Kobe isn't even the best Laker of all time. Magic Johnson holds that title. One can make the argument that Kobe isn't even a top 5 Laker. theres Magic, West, Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt.

If Pippen > Gasol then Kobe did more with less...

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Bullshit Pippen was a SF and Gasol was PF
You would actually put Pippen on Ariza. Damn.

[El Fuego]

If Pippen > Gasol then Kobe did more with less...

last time i checked a basketball team has more then just two players on each team. Also you have to look at the competition they each faced in the league. Also the rule were different 10 years ago. you were able to body up a wing player now you cant even sneeze without a foul being called. It was much harder for Jordan to lead his team then Kobe to lead his

[sonic21]

the 2009 lakers would get destroyed by some 90s team the bulls had to face.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If Pippen > Gasol then Kobe did more with less...

Did you forget the other 10 guys on the rosters?

[Tacker]

Did you forget the other 10 guys on the rosters?

90s Bulls Bench > Lakers Bench

May I say more?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So now it's about the bench? What about if Pippen>>Gasol???
Make up your mind.

[Tacker]

So now it's about the bench? What about if Pippen>>Gasol???
Make up your mind.

WTF you talking about you're the one that brought up the bench and I responded to it.


Did you forget the other 10 guys on the rosters?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So you admit it's about the bench, and not just the 2nd player.

[Tacker]

So you admit it's about the bench, and not just the 2nd player.

What point are you trying to convey here. You're just making it worse by bringing up the bench. The Bulls Bench is far >>>>>>>> then the Lakers bench so now you can say Kobe won with MUCH MUCH less than MJ did...

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

What point are you trying to convey here. You're just making it worse by bringing up the bench. The Bulls Bench is far >>>>>>>> then the Lakers bench so now you can say Kobe won with MUCH MUCH less than MJ did...
He didn't need as much as MJ to take down the Magic. You honestly think this year's Magic could have taken down those who faced the Bulls in the 90s?

What point are you trying to convey here.

If Pippen >>>>> Gasol,

90s Bulls Bench > Lakers Bench
Each statement irrelevant to the other in regards to what you're trying to prove.

[mavs>spurs2]

I can't believe you just compared a Hall of Famer and greatest perimeter defender of all time to a soft all-star with nice post moves

[Tacker]

I can't believe you just compared a Hall of Famer and greatest perimeter defender of all time to a soft all-star with nice post moves

Where am I saying Gasol > Pippen

[Tacker]

He didn't need as much as MJ to take down the Magic. You honestly think this year's Magic could have taken down those who faced the Bulls in the 90s?



Each statement irrelevant to the other in regards to what you're trying to prove.

No you retard each statement is a response to your post....

[monosylab1k]

This probably doesn't mean a whole lot, but I'd take any of the 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals over the Magic. And I'd probably take the Suns & both Jazz teams over last year's Celtics.

[monosylab1k]

the 2009 lakers would get destroyed by some 90s team the bulls had to face.

:tu I should have read the entire thread.

[dirk4mvp]

Tacker's threads are the best. Why do we need Bill Simmons anymore?



:pump



So you admit you're wrong after 1 post?

That was easy.


rofl


copter

[gaKNOW!blee]

Tacker what the fuck are you trying to prove with this shitty thread. Seriously.

First you say Kobe better, then its MJ.

After reading this I seriously don't know who is think is better...Kobe or MJ? and Gasol and Pippen? Youre just fucking rambling on and flip flopping your opinions. Just shut the fuck up already, you dont know anything about basketball as your proved with your Tim Duncan thread.

[Tacker]

Tacker what the fuck are you trying to prove with this shitty thread. Seriously.

First you say Kobe better, then its MJ.

After reading this I seriously don't know who is think is better...Kobe or MJ? and Gasol and Pippen? Youre just fucking rambling on and flip flopping your opinions. Just shut the fuck up already, you dont know anything about basketball as your proved with your Tim Duncan thread.

My argument EXPLICITLY says that Kobe had less of a cast than Jordan did so in terms of GOAT talks Kobe should be in there.. Thats basically the summary of this thread.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

No you retard each statement is a response to your post....
?
You're an idiot.

[Chillen]

Are you trying to make NBA fans puke. Were talking Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen here, NBA legends. The Lakers with Kobe and Gasol are so far a 1 time champ, they have to win 5 more together to even legitimately be considered worthy of comparing.

[Medvedenko]

This probably doesn't mean a whole lot, but I'd take any of the 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals over the Magic. And I'd probably take the Suns & both Jazz teams over last year's Celtics.

There you go showing your age.....please, if you look at defensive stats...the Suns and Jazz teams weren't even the tops of the league, where as the Celtics and Magic were. Just like MJ, those teams have no one to stop Kobe or Gasol, let alone Bynum and Odom. I grew up watching those teams and yes it's a different era, but this laker team works those as well.

[gaKNOW!blee]

My argument EXPLICITLY says that Kobe had less of a cast than Jordan did so in terms of GOAT talks Kobe should be in there.. Thats basically the summary of this thread.

Well he's not. So shut up.

[ffadicted]

Tacker is the new KBP, minus the greekness

[monosylab1k]

There you go showing your age.....please, if you look at defensive stats...the Suns and Jazz teams weren't even the tops of the league, where as the Celtics and Magic were. Just like MJ, those teams have no one to stop Kobe or Gasol, let alone Bynum and Odom. I grew up watching those teams and yes it's a different era, but this laker team works those as well.

Tell Kobe how his dick taste.

[VivaPopovich]

your logic doesnt make sense. if kobe won with a completely crap team then you could make that case. but having gasol, odom, ariza, bynum on the same team doesnt make that argument valid. pippen > gasol AND jordan > kobe

[Pistons < Spurs]

Jordan Is Better Than Kobe - Period



One of the more consistent topics of conversation in the days and weeks after Kobe Bryant captured his fourth NBA title was a general re-evaluation of Kobe's ranking within the pantheon of NBA greatness. After earning his fourth title and taking home his first NBA Finals MVP award, Kobe's has secured a place amongst the greatest players to ever play the game. However, the society we live in and much of the media we consume tends to place far too much credence on recent events, as opposed taking a proper perspective by looking at facts and weighing historical evidence.

Thus, recent opinions regarding Kobe's greatness have bordered on blasphemy. Can Kobe be considered one of the greatest NBA players of all-time? Yes. Is he in the top-10? Maybe. But, is he the greatest? No. Quite frankly, he's not close. It is actually irritating that so many people are trying to make the argument that Kobe is "just as good as Jordan." Or to hear Kobe-supporters claim "it is too close to call and you can't say that Jordan is definitely better than Kobe."

Of course you can. Here is the fact of the matter: Michael Jordan had a better career than Kobe Bryant. Period.

It's very simple and empirically evident.

This is the first issue we have to address. Yes, it is absolutely possible to prove, via corroborative facts, the assertion that Michael Jeffery Jordan was a far more accomplished basketball player than Kobe Bean Bryant. That is no big knock against Kobe, it is a simple acknowledgment of the fact the he shares something in common with every other person in history who has ever picked up a basketball. It probably won't happen, but maybe someday Kobe catches MJ. Either way, to compare Kobe to Jordan right now is ludicrous.

It should also probably be noted that Jordan also had a far greater impact on the international ascendance of basketball, the economy at large, the marking of athletes, and the evolution of the sneaker industry in particular. But those are somewhat nebulous concepts that are difficult to prove, even if the majority of us know it be true. However, individual performance on the court is far easier to evaluate, so let's stick with that. Some will argue you can't compare great players to one another and declare one individual superior. I disagree. For starters, let's look at the numbers. Keep in mind, while statistics certainly aren't the sole determinants, they provide a helpful insight into the discussion. And when we look at the compiled evidence, Jordan is clearly far superior to Kobe in nearly every single statistical category. For this portion of the production, I am going to shut up and let the stats speak for themselves.

(For their careers, MJ played 1072 regular season games and Kobe has now played 948, which gives a comparable sample set):
● Jordan averaged five more points per game (30.1 PPG for MJ versus 25.1 for Kobe)
● Jordan averaged more rebounds (6.2 vs. 5.3)
● Jordan averaged more assists (5.3 vs. 4.6);
● Jordan shot a higher percentage from the field (49.7% vs. 45.5%)
● Jordan averaged more steals (2.3 vs. 1.5)
● Jordan averaged more blocks (0.8 vs. 0.6)
● Jordan averaged fewer turnovers (2.7 vs. 2.9)

You get the idea… From a statistical standpoint, Kobe can't compare.


******

Nonetheless, there are innumerable methods used to determine greatness on the basketball court. In addition to conventional stats, such as tabulating point and assist totals, various new methods of determining effectiveness and efficiency are continually introduced. ESPN's John Hollinger (PER) and Roland Beech of 82games.com (Roland Rating) are but two of the pioneers in this emerging field. We have learned that simple stats can be influenced by exterior factors such as rule changes, 'pace of play,' and are tempered by the era in which the individual played. (For instance, imagine if opposing defenders weren't allowed to hand-check MJ during his heyday!?)

Thus, some other meaningful indicators of excellence would be all-star nominations, DPOY awards, MVP's, etc. These honors are good tools to gauge a player relative to his contemporaries. And Kobe takes a backseat to Jordan in this department as well. Kobe has won one MVP award. #23 has five in his trophy case. In addition to nine All-Defense selections, Jordan also won the Defensive Player of the year Award in 1988. Kobe has never won a DPOY. MJ has 10 NBA scoring titles, Kobe has just two.

Still, winning is usually considered the definitive measuring stick. It is arguably the purest indicator of greatness. If you can beat everybody you play against, then common sense dictates you are superior during that game/series/year, etc.

And during the playoffs, when the pressure was ratcheted up, the disparity between Jordan and Bryant is even more pronounced.

● All of Jordan's stats spiked during the playoffs, as his scoring (NBA-record 33.4 PPG), rebounding (6.4), and dishing (5.7) all saw significant increases during postseason play. Kobe's numbers remained relatively stable (25 points/ 5.1 boards/ 4.7 dimes).

And Jordan's jaw-dropping playoff production leads us into the next topic - arguably the most important of them all: NBA Championships and the NBA Finals MVP awards handed out to the best player out-performing everyone else on the game's biggest stage.

Here, it is vitally important to denote whether a player was the primary reason for his team winning a title, an important sidekick, or just a bit role-player. For instance, Stacy King won three titles with the Bulls in the early 90's, but no one is going to claim he is a better player than Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley etc.

On the other hand, if a guy wins the NBA Finals MVP, that a good indicator that he was the best/ most important player on the best team in the NBA.

And this is the primary reason why Michael Jordan's resume is unparalleled in modern basketball history. (Comparisons amongst those who played previous to 1969 – the year the award was established - become more difficult in this particular respect.)

Jordan won the NBA Finals MVP trophy six times. His team advanced to the Finals six times. His team won every single time (no one can ever say they beat Jordan in June). And he was UNDOUBTEDLY the best player on the best team in the NBA each of those six seasons.

By comparison, Kobe just won his FIRST Finals MVP trophy. In the other three Lakers championships, Shaquille O'Neal took home the Finals MVP hardware. This is why so much was made of Kobe winning the title this season. Rightfully so, he finally got that Shaq-sized monkey off his back. It was incredibly important for his placement within the NBA's pantheon of all-time greats. I was always bewildered by those pundits ignorant enough to suggest Kobe didn't need to win a title sans-Shaq to cement his legacy. That is utter nonsense. Name another player that is considered an elite, all-time great that had never been the best player on a championship team. If you want to consider yourself one of the greatest players who ever lived, that is undoubtedly one of the perquisites. Thus, his most recent ring allows Kobe to enter the conversation, as it grants him admission into a distinguished club. Keep in mind - Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, and Timmy Duncan all won the Finals MVP award three times in their career, while Willis Reed, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon won the award twice. So, Kobe still has some catching up to do…

Personally, if we are ranking the best to ever play the game, I put Jordan at #1, with Bill Russell a close second. (The NBA Finals MVP award is now named after Russell, an 11-time champion and the greatest winner in NBA history. Little known fact – Russell's record in Game 7's was 10-0.) After those two – who are in a class by themselves - I'd lump Magic, Bird, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar into the next tier (I won't waste my time or yours trying to rate them against each other - you can assign them a number three thru five and I wouldn't squabble, as it's a topic for another day). That brings us to the next layer of greatness, and Kobe's current likely landing place – alongside such superstars as Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Shaq, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, George Mikan, etc.

Nevertheless, the previous paragraph is loaded with subjective judgments and unsubstantiated conjecture. Admittedly, it is often difficult to compare similarly great players against one another. Often these opinions are highly debatable.

But this statement of fact is not: "Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant." Period.



http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13015