Bloody day in Iran

[MannyIsGod]

Looks like the government police are out in huge force and there have been lots of clashes. Their government TV is reporting a blast so I'm sure they're going to try to blame that on the reformers.

[MannyIsGod]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SbiVoGqVHZk/SjzF7euraVI/AAAAAAAAA8o/nNdWvVi3QsY/s400/4980_1187966136483_1148210133_30567006_7287329_n.j pg

[MannyIsGod]

cjcgYycnlHI

[Winehole23]

Suicide bomber kills self at Tehran shrine: report (http://www.reuters.com/article/gc08/idUSTRE55J0YT20090620)

Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:59am EDT
[/URL]
TEHRAN (Reuters) - A suicide bomber blew himself up near the shrine of [URL="http://www.reuters.com/news/globalcoverage/iran"]Iran (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/reuters.com.dart/news/globalcoverage/article;type=featured_broker;sz=170x40;articleID=U STRE55J0YT20090620;ord=6827?)'s revolutionary founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in Tehran on Saturday, Iran's semi-official Mehr news agency reported.


"A few minutes ago a suicide bomber blew himself up at the shrine," Mehr quoted a police official, Hossein Sajedinia, as saying.


Two other people were wounded in the incident in the northern wing of the shrine, another news agency, Fars, said.


Elsewhere in Tehran Iran (http://www.reuters.com/news/globalcoverage/iran)ian riot police used teargas to disperse demonstrators protesting against a disputed presidential election, a witness said.


Iran (http://www.reuters.com/news/globalcoverage/iran)'s English-language Press TV said police used teargas to disperse demonstrators at Tehran's Enghelab square.

[MannyIsGod]

Most of the reformists on the internet are blaming the government although there is speculation that it might be the work of some anti government groups. I'd lay heavy odds that it was the regime though. Seems exactly like what they would do and what a lot of people expected after listening to the speech yesterday.

[MannyIsGod]

Andrew Sullivan's blog is a great source of running info today. It has been throughout the episode but even moreso today.

[DarrinS]

Just think how bad it would've been had Obama been more critical.

Actually, there was a very good discussion of Obama's handling of this situation on Charlie Rose last night. The four guests he had on were able to have a rational discussion about it without resorting to childish name calling. All of them pretty much agreed that they wouldn't be surprised to see that admin take a more critical stance as these events unfold.

They haven't posted the video yet.

http://www.charlierose.com/schedule/

[Winehole23]

Actually, there was a very good discussion of Obama's handling of this situation on Charlie Rose last night. The four guests he had on were able to have a rational discussion about it without resorting to childish name calling.Does this surprise you? Have you seen Charlie Rose before?

[DarrinS]

Does this surprise you? Have you seen Charlie Rose before?

No and yes.

[ChumpDumper]

Just think how bad it would've been had Obama been more critical.Just think how much it would have helped. :rolleyes

[jman3000]

All of them pretty much agreed that they wouldn't be surprised to see that admin take a more critical stance as these events unfold.




The only real solution to Iran is Iran. They have to overthrow their government on their own. I will agree that if they do start a revolution and things get really bad... not just bad so that Mousavi gets the presidency... but so bad that the theocracy runs the risk of being toppled... then we should lend some help.

What a bunch of whoreish thieves : p

[DarrinS]

Just think how much it would have helped. :rolleyes


Yeah, they're just words. Hmm, that reminds me of a familiar speech.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, they're just words. Hmm, that reminds me of a familiar speech.Hmm, that reminds me the theocracy is looking for any excuse to use more violence on the protesters.

Why do you hate the protesters, Darrin?

[MannyIsGod]

11.40 am. Mousavi: I Am Ready For Death.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin can't wrap his head around the fact that they don't need us to do anything for them right. He's been told the lie that the only way those people succeed is if we do something - anything - to facilitate them. He just refuses to acknowledge the sentiment of the Iranian people regarding American interference and he continues to try to make this about Obama when it is about the Persian people who have had enough and no one else.

[jman3000]

Darrins is so cynical it hurts my head.

You're dead wrong on this subject and that's a fact. Not an opinion. If some of the reformers had the stench of the U.S. on them then it wouldn't just be the regime vs. the reformers, it'd be the reformers vs. the regime and the reformers. You seem to read just about every conservative blog you can find and you probably just let it form your opinions for you. As Extra Stout used yesterday "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts".


I think it's good that Mousavi is still fighting this. I can't imagine the regime will allow him to live much longer. Probably execute him on treason or some shit. If that happens then the shit will seriously hit the fan and that could be the catalyst for all out revolution.

[MannyIsGod]

They won't kill him. I can almost promise you they won't make him a martyr. The worst that will happen is they will exile him, but I can't imagine them being so stupid as to make him a martyr in a society that absolutely loves its martyrs.

I hate to say it, but I have no reason to believe the regime won't succeed right now. They are sniffling the crowds today, and unless the crowds are simply greater than I have given them credit for today they won't ever reach a "critical mass" and eventually people will tire.

I hope they continue as long as possible and I hope they don't give up, but the odds are long.

[jman3000]

11.40 am. Mousavi: I Am Ready For Death.




That just might do it. If he dies, he gets martyr status, and we all know how much Muslims regard martyrs.

[jman3000]

Got damn it. Quit your shit. I'm trying to make points here and you beating me by a minute or two is pissing me off. :lol

[jman3000]

They won't kill him. I can almost promise you they won't make him a martyr. The worst that will happen is they will exile him, but I can't imagine them being so stupid as to make him a martyr in a society that absolutely loves its martyrs.

I hate to say it, but I have no reason to believe the regime won't succeed right now. They are sniffling the crowds today, and unless the crowds are simply greater than I have given them credit for today they won't ever reach a "critical mass" and eventually people will tire.

I hope they continue as long as possible and I hope they don't give up, but the odds are long.

Your missing the fact that he can make himself a martyr. He doesn't need the regime to do anything for him to become one.

[MannyIsGod]

A twitter message on the daily dish.

Maybe Jman is onto something....

12.02 pm. Mousavi tells he's bathed [ritually] for martyrdom.

[jman3000]

holy balls.

[SnakeBoy]

This is some crazy shit happening in Iran. It's almost like someone planted a seed of democracy in the middle east and now it's trying to spread.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So we're only getting peripheral footage and pictures to the actual demonstration?

[jman3000]

They're saying that there aren't as many people protesting.

But I think it's just that they're cracking down on large protests... so instead of a few large protests... you have a lot of small, spread out ones. So naturally we're not gonna see the full picture. I think all the people will come out for a big protest at night when it's harder for the police to see what's going on and easier for the protesters to escape.

[FaithInOne]

Let's get a round of applause for the internet age and our beloved geeks worldwide who will forever find ways around Government blockades :toast:toast:toast:toast

[ChumpDumper]

This is some crazy shit happening in Iran. It's almost like someone planted a seed of democracy in the middle east and now it's trying to spread.The seeds have been there for over 100 years -- there's just a lot of shit that kept them from growing.

[MannyIsGod]

12.53 pm. The state media are putting words (http://niacblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/20/the-latest-from-iran-saturday/) into Obama's mouth:
This morning a friend of NIAC who gets Iranian Satellite TV here said that state-run media showed President Obama speaking about Iran this morning. However, instead of translating what he actually said, the translator reportedly quoted Obama as saying he “supports the protesters against the government and they should keep protesting." Assuming this report is correct, it shows the Iranian government is eager to portray Obama as a partisan supporting the demonstrators.
So the Khamenei regime wants the same posture from the Obama as Krauthammer and Wolfowitz. They just don't know what they're talking about, do they?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So the Khamenei regime wants the same posture from the Obama as Krauthammer and Wolfowitz. They just don't know what they're talking about, do they?

Neocons and hardline jews are becoming the most truly anti american faction in american politics in my life time. To think they successfully portrayed liberal anti war pussies as more anti american, while they themselves actively cheer on policies that would fuck us both short and long term.

[FaithInOne]

Obama is just taking a page out of Ron Paul's playbook. Nothing to see here.

[FaithInOne]

Neocons and hardline jews are becoming the most truly anti american faction in american politics in my life time. To think they successfully portrayed liberal anti war pussies as more anti american, while they themselves actively cheer on policies that would fuck us both short and long term.

NeoCons fuck up America in foreign policy

Liberals fuck up America domestically.

Choose your poison.

[ChumpDumper]

Paul was spot on in his reasoning to vote against the resolution.

[jman3000]

I think it's to the point now where the only reason conservatives are still going to bitch and moan about Obama on this subject is so that when he actually does say something they can take all the credit and say "about time". When in reality if they had gotten their way and he had interfered earlier, things would have been much, much worse.

[FaithInOne]

The lone lawmaker to vote against the symbolic measure supporting Iranian dissidents, Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), defended that vote Friday, saying the U.S. is only selectively expressing its outrage at voter suppression in other countries.
"I rise in reluctant opposition to H Res 560, which condemns the Iranian government for its recent actions during the unrest in that country," Paul said in a statement on his website (http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/tx14_paul/iranres.shtml).
"Of course I do not support attempts by foreign governments to suppress the democratic aspirations of their people, but when is the last time we condemned Saudi Arabia or Egypt or the many other countries where unlike in Iran there is no opportunity to exercise any substantial vote on political leadership?" the libertarian Republican asked. "It seems our criticism is selective and applied when there are political points to be made."
Paul said he supported President Obama's more cautious approach to the situation in Iran, an approach many of his Republican colleagues in Congress have criticized as too lax.


You guys need to quit hogging the youth vote in the primaries imho.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Paul was spot on in his reasoning to vote against the resolution.

:tu
He's a living legend.

[jman3000]

Besides the internet, CNN probably has the best coverage of this right now. They're showing pretty much all the video that's coming out today.

MSNBC is showing some prison shit and Fox is just having Republican congressmen/Krauthammer on to complain about Obama's handling of the situation.

[Marcus Bryant]

NeoCons fuck up America in foreign policy

Liberals fuck up America domestically.

Choose your poison.

Blunt and overgeneralized, though somewhat on the correct path.

[Marcus Bryant]

Paul was spot on in his reasoning to vote against the resolution.

...and he's allegedly the crazy one.

[jman3000]

It looks like there's anti-protester protesters amongst the protesters... saw some civilians throwing rocks at a group... don't know which side was which though.

[MannyIsGod]

Besides the internet, CNN probably has the best coverage of this right now. They're showing pretty much all the video that's coming out today.

MSNBC is showing some prison shit and Fox is just having Republican congressmen/Krauthammer on to complain about Obama's handling of the situation.

I watched this morning but they ended up just showing shit I had seen an hour earlier on the net.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I watched this morning but they ended up just showing shit I had seen an hour earlier on the net.

Now they're showing videos that are getting on the web like a minute or two afterwards.

[jman3000]

I watched this morning but they ended up just showing shit I had seen an hour earlier on the net.

Hence the "besides the internet". Some people here don't know what sites to go to and CNN is giving a nice summation.

[MannyIsGod]

Andrew Sullivan just posted what is the most disturbing footage I've seen of this event yet. In fact its some of the most disturbing footage I've ever seen. A young woman is brutally murdered.

I can't imagine taking the life of someone simply because they desire freedom.

[jman3000]

It looks like she was shot in upper chest. Those people are trying to stop the bleeding... but the blood has nowhere to go so it basically fills her throat and comes out her mouth/nose.

At first I thought she was being choked... but they're not putting pressure on her neck at all.

[jman3000]

Did you see the link to the report about China telling its media to downplay the riots?

It doesn't want an uprising of its own. This is getting incredibly interesting.

[MannyIsGod]

That video made me incredibly sad. I don't even know what to say man.

[SnakeBoy]

The seeds have been there for over 100 years -- there's just a lot of shit that kept them from growing.

What's causing the change now?

Don't get me wrong, I never supported the establish a democracy in the heart of the middle east and it will spread philosophy from Bush/Cheney but current events make me go hmmmmm.

I'm sure it's just coincidence like when Reagan rejected detente and took on the Soviet Union and then out of pure coincidence the Soviet Union collapsed.

[jman3000]

That video made me incredibly sad. I don't even know what to say man.

Don't watch the second one then... it shows a close up of her face. I had to look away.

[ChumpDumper]

What's causing the change now?

Don't get me wrong, I never supported the establish a democracy in the heart of the middle east and it will spread philosophy from Bush/Cheney but current events make me go hmmmmm.

I'm sure it's just coincidence like when Reagan rejected detente and took on the Soviet Union and then out of pure coincidence the Soviet Union collapsed.Yeah, the bankruptcy of the Soviet system and the free market's being established there had nothing to do with it.

Americans take way too much credit for the positive events in foreign lands and none of the blame for the bad.

The change here is being caused by the shitty state of Iran in general and the incredulous elections results given those conditions.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, the bankruptcy of the Soviet system and the free market's being established there had nothing to do with it.

Americans take way too much credit for the positive events in foreign lands and none of the blame for the bad.

The change here is being caused by the shitty state of Iran in general and the incredulous elections results given those conditions.

No fucking shit. Thats all I could think about when he made that first post. They can't get over their Amerocentric thinking. Its not all about America, its really not.





Jman, I watched it. It was far more disturbing than the first which was already bad. Just horrible and beyond my contemplation. I hope the Iranians are able to succeed peacefully with as little bloodshed as possible but I know these things never happen without it.

[jman3000]

Jman, I watched it. It was far more disturbing than the first which was already bad. Just horrible and beyond my contemplation. I hope the Iranians are able to succeed peacefully with as little bloodshed as possible but I know these things never happen without it.

It's not relegated to Tehran anymore. It's nationwide. There are protests all over and there's no way we can possibly know how big this has become. Like I said before, I think that once the sun sets this thing is going to get exponentially worse. I'm actually going to agree with Krauthammer somewhat in regards to all they need right now is for some of the police forces to either put their weapons down or switch sides.

If/when Mousavi becomes a martyr, if/when the police start to question their orders, if/when this spreads beyond the youth, then revolution WILL take place.

One thing is for sure... Iran will not be the same after this no matter what.

[SnakeBoy]

CNN probably has the best coverage of this right now.

CNN always has the best coverage when it comes to the middle east.

What videos are ya'll talking about? Link?

[MannyIsGod]

This is from Mousavi's facebook so I'm not sure how true it is, but its reportedly one of the people in the videos of the woman who was shot.


Basij shots to death a young woman in Tehran's Saturday June 20th protests At 19:05 June 20th Place: Karekar Ave., at the corner crossing Khosravi St. and Salehi st. A young woman who was standing aside with her father watching the protests was shot by a basij member hiding on the rooftop of a civilian house. He had clear shot at the girl and could not miss her. However, he aimed straight her heart. I am a doctor, so I rushed to try to save her. But the impact of the gunshot was so fierce that the bullet had blasted inside the victim's chest, and she died in less than 2 minutes. The protests were going on about 1 kilometers away in the main street and some of the protesting crowd were running from tear gass used among them, towards Salehi St. The film is shot by my friend who was standing beside me. Please let the world know.

[MannyIsGod]

CNN always has the best coverage when it comes to the middle east.

What videos are ya'll talking about? Link?


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/

[MannyIsGod]

I actually hope CNN shows that video - its even on facebook now so they have to have seen it.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

CNN always has the best coverage when it comes to the middle east.

What videos are ya'll talking about? Link?

google andrew sullivan and check out his blog like manny said

it has live tweets, updates, videos.

[jman3000]

N/m

[DarrinS]

Darrin can't wrap his head around the fact that they don't need us to do anything for them right. He's been told the lie that the only way those people succeed is if we do something - anything - to facilitate them. He just refuses to acknowledge the sentiment of the Iranian people regarding American interference and he continues to try to make this about Obama when it is about the Persian people who have had enough and no one else.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124537040666029677.html






Don't Accept This Coup
By Kaveh from Tabriz

Ahmadinejad has taken revenge on the students of Iran during these violent days. The regime's aim is to damage universities, since they are the first base of change, movement and protest.

I live in the dorms at Tehran University. I was asleep when Basij militiamen entered my room early Monday morning, demolished everything and started beating us. A man with a long beard broke my notebook and said: "It is destroyed, this book that you were using against Islam and Ahmadinejad."

They beat students more when they saw posters of Mousavi in their rooms. And they carried big knives and guns.

They also attacked the women's dormitory next door. The Supreme Leader calls us rioters, but I want to ask him: How can sleeping women in their beds be rioters? Is this the Islamic justice he believes in?

President Obama's speech was good; he says that he will support us. He also said that nations must decide the fate of their countries by themselves. I agree with him, but now we don't have any power to change the situation, so we need help and attention.

We ask the president not to accept this coup d'etat.





By the way, I'm sure you'll change your tone when Obama does, and he will.

[SnakeBoy]

By the way, I'm sure you'll change your tone when Obama does, and he will.

He has no choice now.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin you're impossible. This is why no one takes you seriously.

[DarrinS]

...and he's allegedly the crazy one.


If you're an isolationist, Ron Paul is your man. He and Pat Buchanan.

[Trainwreck2100]

I actually hope CNN shows that video - its even on facebook now so they have to have seen it.

That one guy they just interviewed brought it up, and the reporter quickly changed the subject so i doubt it will be shown

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ Pat Buchanan being an isolationist.

[DarrinS]

:lol @ Pat Buchanan being an isolationist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan#Foreign_Policy

[jman3000]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124537040666029677.html


By the way, I'm sure you'll change your tone when Obama does, and he will.

what the fuck? I've been saying this whole time that's it's not whether he does it or not... it's when he does it.

You've been the one bitching that he should have said something days ago. Which was the single most wrong thing to do at the time.

You're wrong. You've been wrong this entire fucking time. Get over it.

[Marcus Bryant]

If your an isolationist, Ron Paul is your man. He and Pat Buchanan.

If you don't want the state dragging the American people into foreign crises which have absolutely nothing to do with national defense then, yes, Paul is the man. Surely you can distinguish between the people and state, or have you totally sold your soul to the state?

As for "isolationalist," I'm not sure you have a complete understanding of what that entails, and how that does not preclude private condemnation of the Iranian state's actions.

[MannyIsGod]

It appears you are right about Buchanan, Darrin. For whatever reason, I attributed completely different views to him.

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin, remind us again what good Obama's saying what you wanted him to say would do for the protesters.

[DarrinS]

what the fuck? I've been saying this whole time that's it's not whether he does it or not... it's when he does it.

You've been the one bitching that he should have said something days ago. Which was the single most wrong thing to do at the time.

You're wrong. You've been wrong this entire fucking time. Get over it.


You saying I'm wrong makes it so. :rolleyes

[MannyIsGod]

And btw, that article you posted wasn't asking for Obama to say something. They're asking for flat out help. Are you advocating we help them Darrin?

[jman3000]

You saying I'm wrong makes it so. :rolleyes

You being wrong and completely ignorant as to the specifics of the situation makes you wrong. Not anything I say.

[MannyIsGod]

You saying I'm wrong makes it so. :rolleyes

You can't even articulate your view, Darrin. Jman's provided a lot of reasoning for his view. What have you done outside of copy and paste? You're the last person on this site who should be acting as though someone hasn't provided substance or proof.

[Marcus Bryant]

And so the Wilsonian disease continues to infect these United States.

[DarrinS]

Iranian students say they're doomed if Obama recognizes Iran's election result

3BcFx380pFA

[SnakeBoy]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/


Thanks Manny, very sad. Made me think of that phrase "the road to freedom is paved with blood". For some reason I always thought Iranians were a fairly well armed population. I'm going to go give my guns a hug now.

[MannyIsGod]

When on earth has he given any indication of doing that? That video is also days old. You literally went searching for something of that nature, didn't you? You don't see the problem with that, do you?

[jman3000]

It's around 11 PM in Iran right now. Let's see where this goes.

[jman3000]

I actually hope CNN shows that video - its even on facebook now so they have to have seen it.

They just showed it... but they pixelated the shit out of it.

[SnakeBoy]

Well, as this turns bloody Obama has no choice but to condemn the actions. He can't sit on the sidelines and he definitely can't sit down with Ahmadinejad. Imagine that photo op of Obama and Ahmadinejad shaking hands and smiling. He'd get destroyed politically.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah I saw. Really took out the effect of the video.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, as this turns bloody Obama has no choice but to condemn the actions. He can't sit on the sidelines and he definitely can't sit down with Ahmadinejad. Imagine that photo op of Obama and Ahmadinejad shaking hands and smiling. He'd get destroyed politically.

You guys are amazing.

[ChumpDumper]

He can't sit on the sidelinesOf course he can. If we are going to go with the sports analogies, he'll be talking about the game at the very most. Nobody is going to play but the Iranians.

[MannyIsGod]

Thanks Manny, very sad. Made me think of that phrase "the road to freedom is paved with blood". For some reason I always thought Iranians were a fairly well armed population. I'm going to go give my guns a hug now.

It is definetly one of the sadest things I've ever seen.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So it's 11 pm there right now? What's the delay for footage we're getting, cuz all that shit shows daylight still.

I wonder if insurgents in other battlezones in the ME are using this huge story as a media cover to take rash action of their own. I perused google news and it said 50 dead in one attack in iraq. That sounds like alot for one attack.

[jman3000]

So it's 11 pm there right now? What's the delay for footage we're getting, cuz all that shit shows daylight still.

I wonder if insurgents in other battlezones in the ME are using this huge story as a media cover to take rash action of their own. I perused google news and it said 50 dead in one attack in iraq. That sounds like alot for one attack.

Sun sets at 830. So the videos coming in were probably shot around 5 or 6... then the person went home and uploaded it onto their computer around 7 or 8.

[jman3000]

According to AS's sources 30-40 dead in one hospital in Tehran. The body count is probably in the hundreds if one hospital alone has that type of body count. Thousands probably injured.

I really wish he hadn't placed that picture there. I think people can see it for themselves if they watched the video.

[SnakeBoy]

You guys are amazing.

Don't lump us together. I haven't been critical of Obama's stance. Today's events will change his stance, wait and see.


he'll be talking about the game at the very most.

Talking is all I'm talking about. Words matter remember.

[ChumpDumper]

Talking is all I'm talking about. Words matter remember.Not as much as you think or in the way you might think.

[MannyIsGod]

CBF, I just saw a video of the nighttime chanting in Tehran on facebook, but I don't think I can link it here. It just takes time for these things to filter through.

[jman3000]

The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights.

As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect the dignity of its own people and govern through consent, not coercion.

Martin Luther King once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." I believe that. The international community believes that. And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples’ belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness.

[jman3000]

Looks like this is playing out exactly as I had thought. Apparently they're amassing for a huge night time rally.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Thoughts on barack's statement?
Due to the brutal images, he couldn't stay silent. I just hope its not used against him.

[MannyIsGod]

There's not much to it CBF. I'm just waiting for Darrin to come in and personally take credit for swaying Obama.

It's a typical statement though. We'll see if it shuts the neocons up or if it just emboldens them.

[jman3000]

Thoughts on barack's statement?
Due to the brutal images, he couldn't stay silent. I just hope its not used against him.

I thought it was poignant and fitting.

It will be used against him because people will say he should have said something earlier... bring up their messiah, Reagan,... and question his judgment.

All these things are just for political points which is completely pathetic in a situation like this. He's acting in his capacities as Head of State in this instance and not doing it in a partisan manner. He's getting intelligence briefings around the clock on the happenings and probably has a firmer understanding about it than anyone here or anywhere.

[MannyIsGod]

Really I coudln't care much less about how much flak he gets for the statement or his previous statements. This is not an American situation. We're just spectators.

[jman3000]

There's not much to it CBF. I'm just waiting for Darrin to come in and personally take credit for swaying Obama.


That's all this was about to all these pricks. Credit. They wanted to take the movement from the Iranians and give it to themselves for their own nationalistic reasons. They wanted to say it was us who caused the revolution. That is was us who saved them. That it was we who were their hope.

Fuck that. The Iranians get the credit for this one. Every person who has lost their life for this cause gets the credit.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah I just hope it doesn't dramatically alter the course of events within Iran. I suppose at this point, since they already lied about Obama backing the demonstrators, it doesn't matter as much.

[jman3000]

Yeah I just hope it doesn't dramatically alter the course of events within Iran. I suppose at this point, since they already lied about Obama backing the demonstrators, it doesn't matter as much.

It does matter. It's one thing for Obama to say something and the Iranian regime tell the truth and play his statement. It's another to not say anything and have the regime lie and play a fake statement.

It undermines their credibility. It proves them as liars. Every little piece of credibility that is chipped away only lends strength to the possible revolution.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah I just hope it doesn't dramatically alter the course of events within Iran. I suppose at this point, since they already lied about Obama backing the demonstrators, it doesn't matter as much.

The images from today will change a lot in this situation. The past week was far more civil than today. Today was absolutely horrible. That woman, that video it really embodies the day.

[DarrinS]

I thought it was poignant and fitting.

It will be used against him because people will say he should have said something earlier... bring up their messiah, Reagan,... and question his judgment.

All these things are just for political points which is completely pathetic in a situation like this. He's acting in his capacities as Head of State in this instance and not doing it in a partisan manner. He's getting intelligence briefings around the clock on the happenings and probably has a firmer understanding about it than anyone here or anywhere.


I like what he said. Better late than never. I still don't quite see how Obama saying this earlier would have been detrimental. If Bush was still POTUS, maybe, but I think the younger generation of Iranians know better. How does anyone know that these young people aren't, in part, inspired by Obama? After all, he did make a youtube video aimed directly at them.

HY_utC-hrjI

[MannyIsGod]

Because its not just the young that matter Darrin. Much of the support for this goes past University students and people who remember and despise US involvement in the past. This is not the type of movement that you think it is. They don't all view the US in a great light and you still somehow do not realize that.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It does matter. It's one thing for Obama to say something and the Iranian regime tell the truth and play his statement. It's another to not say anything and have the regime lie and play a fake statement.

It undermines their credibility. It proves them as liars. Every little piece of credibility that is chipped away only lends strength to the possible revolution.

But that's only from the pov from people with quick access to information and proper news channels. From within Iran, I don't think any of these commoners have a complete freedom of access to sort out lie from truth.

[MannyIsGod]

But that's only from the pov from people with quick access to information and proper news channels. From within Iran, I don't think any of these commoners have a complete freedom of access to sort out lie from truth.

You should give the Iranian people more credit, CBF.

[DarrinS]

That's all this was about to all these pricks. Credit. They wanted to take the movement from the Iranians and give it to themselves for their own nationalistic reasons. They wanted to say it was us who caused the revolution. That is was us who saved them. That it was we who were their hope.

Fuck that. The Iranians get the credit for this one. Every person who has lost their life for this cause gets the credit.


Why are you and Manny so angry all the time? You can't even have a civil discussion without going off on some Tourette's syndrome laden tantrum.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You should give the Iranian people more credit, CBF.

Dude these people on the streets are not coming home to take five, googling news and sorting out truth from lie, then returning to the demonstrations. While this stuff is going on, the fog of it makes truth and lie hardly distinguishable.

[DarrinS]

Because its not just the young that matter Darrin. Much of the support for this goes past University students and people who remember and despise US involvement in the past. This is not the type of movement that you think it is. They don't all view the US in a great light and you still somehow do not realize that.


I guess I'm just thinking that half of that population is under 27 and many of them have been more exposed to freedom through internet and other technologies.

[jman3000]

But that's only from the pov from people with quick access to information and proper news channels. From within Iran, I don't think any of these commoners have a complete freedom of access to sort out lie from truth.

The people who matter in this situation are the ones with the access. That's all that matters. Those are the people that need it and can disseminate it amongst their peers from there.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The people who matter in this situation are the ones with the access. That's all that matters. Those are the people that need it and can disseminate it amongst their peers from there.

And the ones on the street with emotions running full steam ahead are relying on second hand information, some of which can be false, some of which can be true.

[jman3000]

Dude these people on the streets are not coming home to take five, googling news and sorting out truth from lie, then returning to the demonstrations. While this stuff is going on, the fog of it makes truth and lie hardly distinguishable.

There are probably a handful of people who are taking leadership roles for the resistance. They get the news, and like I said just a sec ago, disseminate it to others from there. Then it just trickles down.

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if there are CIA agents giving info to contacts to be honest. I'd actually be surprised if that wasn't happening.

[jman3000]

And the ones on the street with emotions running full steam ahead are relying on second hand information, some of which can be false, some of which can be true.

Their getting information from comrades they trust their life with. There's brotherhood in this movement.

[MannyIsGod]

Dude these people on the streets are not coming home to take five, googling news and sorting out truth from lie, then returning to the demonstrations. While this stuff is going on, the fog of it makes truth and lie hardly distinguishable.

I typically don't need google to figure out if I should trust the people who just shot my neighbor. The violence today really has a huge effect on things.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Their are probably a handful of people who are taking leadership roles for the resistance. They get the news, and like I said just a sec ago, disseminate it to others from there. Then it just trickles down.

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if there are CIA agents giving info to contacts to be honest. I'd actually be surprised if that wasn't happening.

Of course there are people from all angles of this situation trying to disiminate their own propaganda, it would be the most logical thing for anyone with an agenda to do. My whole point is, because of stuff like that, the common person doing the actual protesting is emotional and acting on crowd instinct, not sitting back and properly separating false from true news. And I only started saying this in regards to our president's statements. Not blatancies like did or didn't Iranian citizens get shot by militiamen.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess I'm just thinking that half of that population is under 27 and many of them have been more exposed to freedom through internet and other technologies.

None of that means they view the United States in a good light. This is what you don't understand. The fact that they're protesting their government does not mean they like a country who has fucked over their country many times in the past.

[jman3000]

Of course there are people from all angles of this situation trying to disiminate their own propaganda, it would be the most logical thing for anyone with an agenda to do. My whole point is, because of stuff like that, the common person doing the actual protesting is emotional and acting on crowd instinct, not sitting back and properly separating false from true news. And I only started saying this in regards to our president's statements.

It's never that simple. It accumulates. Hence why I said it chips away at the credibility of the regime.

For the most part in confrontations like this it's an "us against them" mentality. You're right about they aren't all checking their facebook pages every hour to get information... but a handful of them are. It's that handful that is responsible for getting this stuff out.

[DarrinS]

None of that means they view the United States in a good light. This is what you don't understand. The fact that they're protesting their government does not mean they like a country who has fucked over their country many times in the past.


I have several Iranian friends and, from my conversations when them over the years, I think the notion of widespread hatred of the US, especially among younger people, is grossly exaggerated. Don't confuse their govt. and clerics with their general population.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I have several Iranian friends and, from my conversations when them over the years, I think the notion of widespread hatred of the US, especially among younger people, is grossly exaggerated. Don't confuse their govt. and clerics with their general population.

That's because most of your iranian friends are probably descended from relatively well off iranian families that liked the status quo under the Shah. Don't confuse a small sliver of a population with a general population.

[SnakeBoy]

Thoughts on barack's statement?


A little sooner than I expected, I thought he would wait until tomorrow.


It accumulates. Hence why I said it chips away at the credibility of the regime.


All the insightful commentary I've heard from people who actually seem to understand the country points to this being the beginning of the end for the regime. It may be years and alot of blood away but they will fall because of what they are doing. The demonstrators aren't chanting down with Ahmadinejad anymore, their chanting down with the Supreme Leader. That's a first and very stunning.

[boutons_deux]

credibility of the regime is now moot.

All that matters now is which sides applies and sustains the most force, a simple game.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Any news on Mousavi or Rafsanjani lately?

[MannyIsGod]

While Iranians, like many other Muslim populations, have negative opinions of the U.S. government and U.S. foreign policy, they have a mildly positive image of the American people, and believe "common ground" can be found between the two societies. Most Iranians desire closer ties with the U.S., including more trade, investment and tourism.http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/527.php?lb=brme&pnt=527&nid=&id=

Its fairly well known that the Iranian public does not view the US - or more specifically our government - in a good way.

Found some more



Just 29 percent of Iranians said they have favorable views of the United States in the latest poll, which was conducted last month. In a similar survey in February 2008 — nearly a year before Barack Obama became president — 34 percent had positive opinions about the U.S.
In a further sign of wariness toward the United States, 38 percent in last month's poll said the U.S. is the greatest threat to Iran. Only Israel was ranked higher — 44 percent of Iranians said the Jewish state posed the greatest threat to their country.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iran_poll

[SnakeBoy]

All that matters now is which sides applies and sustains the most force, a simple game.

In the short run but with over half the country not even being born when the revolution happened, I don't see how they can maintain power over the long term.

[jman3000]

This is a complete hypothetical:

If Iran does fall into a civil war for control over the country what happens if Russia steps in and sends troops to help out? Iran is one of their allies atm and a complete regime change would perhaps change that. What do we do then? Is it fair then to not step in? Can we step in?

It's not like we're allies with Iran. At the same time if another country sends military aid which could perhaps turn the tide against the reformers, could we afford to not take advantage of a perhaps singular moment in which Iran could experience regime change?

[DarrinS]

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/527.php?lb=brme&pnt=527&nid=&id=

Its fairly well known that the Iranian public does not view the US - or more specifically our government - in a good way.

Found some more




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iran_poll


I think it's more about our govt., but that is probably changing.

[MannyIsGod]

It is about our government, but that exactly what Obama is. Our government.

[SnakeBoy]

Can we step in?


Not directly. My guess is we would take the approach we took against the Soviets in Afghanistan and supply the revolution fighters with arms. It would be much easier to do now since we are essentially their next door neighbors. Standing on the sidelines isn't even a remote possibility in your hypothetical scenario imo. Then again your hypothetical scenario isn't much of a possibility either.

[SnakeBoy]

Its fairly well known that the Iranian public does not view the US - or more specifically our government - in a good way.


Very true but I don't think you can say the same about the ideals of our country.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This is a complete hypothetical:

If Iran does fall into a civil war for control over the country what happens if Russia steps in and sends troops to help out? Iran is one of their allies atm and a complete regime change would perhaps change that. What do we do then? Is it fair then to not step in? Can we step in?

It's not like we're allies with Iran. At the same time if another country sends military aid which could perhaps turn the tide against the reformers, could we afford to not take advantage of a perhaps singular moment in which Iran could experience regime change?

There would have to be alot of other crazy developments, but no doubt US would take it as a total risk to their security interests if Russia did that, in regards to energy export, the Iraqi war, and the Afpak war. I don't think Russia has enough clout at the moment to do such a thing, and I think China would not look to kindly if Russia unilaterally did something like that either.

Plus I think it would only fuel the opposition (not to mention piss off the muslim world as a whole, thereby pissing off the regimes controlling them) if three(four) contiguous muslim states were being occupied by foreign troops

[SnakeBoy]

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if there are CIA agents giving info to contacts to be honest. I'd actually be surprised if that wasn't happening.

I hope the CIA isn't involved. They're so good at fucking things up.

[jman3000]

I hope the CIA isn't involved. They're so good at fucking things up.

IDK... they handled the JFK assassination and carrying out 9/11 pretty well....

[SnakeBoy]

IDK... they handled the JFK assassination and carrying out 9/11 pretty well....

:lol I forgot about those.

[Cry Havoc]

http://elections.7rooz.com/link/845/

This is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen (not the video, just in general). The Iranian people are fighting for freedom! There is such passion! It's amazing, sad, and beautiful at the same time.

[Cry Havoc]

19 people died in unrest Saturday in Tehran, hospital sources said. Unconfirmed reports put the death toll at 150.

Per CNN.com breaking news headline.

[jman3000]

Looks like information isn't coming in as steadily as it was prior.

We'll get more information in 6 or so hours when day breaks and the information stream starts trickling again.

[FaithInOne]

Continue Westernizing the Iranians and they will keep this up. Life is good when you have a nice place to live, technology to have fun with, and good times all around. Government because of humanity's flaws is a cancer on society in general, but democracy is decent enough.

"Supreme Leaders" dressed up in Window Curtains bossing you all around? Fuck that. Don't throw stones, throw bones :hat

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see Obama's statement as being much different from his previous ones.
Continue Westernizing the Iranians and they will keep this up. Life is good when you have a nice place to live, technology to have fun with, and good times all around.How 1978 of you.

[jman3000]

Taken from the Daily Dish...


"In the name of God, the kind and the merciful

Indeed god demands you to safe keep what people entrust in you, and to rule them with justice. [this a verse of Koran]

Respectable and intelligent people of Iran, These nights and days, a pivotal moment in our history is taking place. People ask each other: “what should we do?, which way should we go?”. It is my duty to share with you what I believe, and to learn from you, may we never forget our historical task and not give up on the duty we are given by the destiny of times and generations.

30 years ago, in this country a revolution became victorious in the name of Islam, a revolution for freedom, a revolution for reviving the dignity of men, a revolution for truth and justice. In those times, especially when our enlightened Imam [Khomeini] was alive, large amount of lives and matters were invested to legitimize this foundation and many valuable achievements were attained. An unprecedented enlightenment captured our society, and our people reached a new life where they endured the hardest of hardships with a sweet taste. What this people gained was dignity and freedom and a gift of the life of the pure ones [i.e. 12 Imams of Shiites]. I am certain that those who have seen those days will not be satisfied with anything less. Had we as a people lost certain talents that we were unable to experience that early spirituality? I had come to say that that was not the case. It is not late yet, we are not far from that enlightened space yet.

I had come to show that it was possible to live spiritually while living in a modern world. I had come to repeat Imam’s warnings about fundamentalism. I had come to say that evading the law leads to dictatorship; and to remind that paying attention to people’s dignity does not diminish the foundations of the regime, but strengthens it.

I had come to say that people wish honesty and integrity from their servants, and that many of our perils have arisen from lies. I had come to say that poverty and backwardness, corruption and injustice were not our destiny. I had come to re-invite to the Islamic revolution, as it had to be, and Islamic republic as it has to be. In this invitation, I was not charismatic [articulate], but the core message of revolution was so appealing that it surpassed my articulation and excited the young generation who had not seen those days to recreate scenes which we had not seen since the days of revolution[1979] and the sacred defense. The people’s movement chose green as its symbol. I confess that in this, I followed them.

And a generation that was accused of being removed from religion, has now reached “God is Great”, “Victory’s of God and victory’s near”, “Ya hossein” in their chants to prove that when this tree fruits, they all resemble. No one taught hem these slogans, they reached them by the teachings of instinct.


How unfair are those whose petty advantages make them call this a “velvet revolution” staged by foreigners! [refering to state TV and Khameneni, perhaps!] But as you know, all of us were faced with deception and cheatings when we claimed to revitalize our nation and realize dreams that root in the hearts of young and old. And that which we had predicted will stem from evading law [dictatorship], realized soon in the worst manifestation.

The large voter turnout in recent election was the result of hard work to create hope and confidence in people, to create a deserving response to those whose broad dissatisfaction with the existing management crisis could have targeted the foundations of the regime. If this good will and trust of the poeple is not addressed via protecting their votes, or if they cannot react in a civil manner to claim their rights, the responsibility of the dangerous routs ahead will be on the shoulders of those who do not tolerate civil protests. If the large volume of cheating and vote rigging, which has set fire to the hays of people’s anger, is expressed as the evidence of fairness, the republican nature of the state will be killed and in practice, the ideology that Islam and Republicanism are incompatible will be proven.

This outcome will make two groups happy: One, those who since the beginning of revolution stood against Imam and called the Islamic state a dictatorship of the elite who want to take people to heaven by force; and the other, those who in defending the human rights, consider religion and Islam against republicanism. Imam’s fantastic art was to neutralize these dichotomies. I had come to focus on Imam’s approach to neutralize the burgeoning magic of these. Now, by confirming the results of election, by limiting the extent of investigation in a manner that the outcome will not be changed, even though in more than 170 branches the number of cast votes was more than 100% of eligible voters of the riding, the heads of the state have accepted the responsibility of what has happened during the election.

In these conditions, we are asked to follow our complaints via the Guardian council, while this council has proven its bias, not only before and during, but also after the election. The first principle of judgment is to be impartial. I, continue to strongly believe that the request for annulling the vote and repeating the election is a definite right that has to be considered by impartial and nationally trusted delegation. Not to dismiss the results of this investigation a priori, or to prevent people from demonstration by threatening them to bloodshed. Nor to unleash the Intelligence ministry’s plain clothes forces on people’s lives to disperse crowds by intimidation and inflammation, instead of responding to people’s legitimate questions, and then blaming the bloodshed on others.

As I am looking at the scene, I see it set for advancing a new political agenda that spreads beyond the objective of installing an unwanted government. As a companion who has seen the beauties of your green wave, I will never allow any one’s life endangered because of my actions. At the same time, I remain undeterred on my demand for annulling the election and demanding people’s rights. Despite my limited abilities, I believe that your motivation and creativity can pursue your legitimate demands in new civil manners.

Be sure that I will always stand with you. What this brother of yours recommends, especially to the dear youth, in terms of finding new solutions is to not allow liars and cheater steal your flag of defense of Islamic state, and foreigners rip the treasures of the Islamic republic which are your inheritance of the blood of your decent fathers. By trust in God, and hope for the future, and leaning on the strength of social movements, claim your rights in the frameworks of the existing constitution, based on principle of non-violence.

In this, we are not confronting the Basij. Basiji is our brother. In this we are not confronting the revolutionary guard. The guard is the keeper of our revolution. We are not confronting the army, the army is the keeper of our borders. These organs are the keepers of our independence, freedom and our Islamic republic. We are confronting deception and lies, we want to reform them, a reform by return to the pure principles of revolution.

We advise the authorities, to calm down the streets. Based on article 27 of the constitution, not only provide space for peaceful protest, but also encourage such gatherings. The state TV should stop badmouthing and taking sides. Before voices turn into shouting, let them be heard in reasonable debates. Let the press criticize, and write the news as they happen. In one word, create a free space for people to express their agreements and disagreements. Let those who want, say “takbeer” and don’t consider it opposition. It is clear that in this case, there won’t be a need for security forces on the streets, and we won’t have to face pictures and hear news that break the heart of anyone who loves the country and the revolution.

Your brother and companion Mir Hossein Mousavi


It sounds like he's calling for revolution by framing it as a "non revolution" revolution. He wants to preserve the 1979 revolution by having a 2009 one.

[baseline bum]

I have several Iranian friends and, from my conversations when them over the years, I think the notion of widespread hatred of the US, especially among younger people, is grossly exaggerated. Don't confuse their govt. and clerics with their general population.

That's what my Iranian friends also tell me, but we're also both conditioning on knowing Iranians who came to the US on their own (or their parents') free will. There's a lot of hope for Iran to get rid of the Islamic nutcases, but sadly Pakistan is right there to take their place.

[baseline bum]

I really hope these guys are successful in removing trash like Ahmadinejad and his cronies. I have always wanted to go see Tehran and the enormous mountains behind it, but of course I wouldn't do it under the fundamentalist rule there.

[Winehole23]

Continue Westernizing the Iranians and they will keep this up. Life is good when you have a nice place to live, technology to have fun with, and good times all around...

"Supreme Leaders" dressed up in Window Curtains bossing you all around? Fuck that.Mir Hossein Mousavi, and I dare say very many of his followers, see it a little differently:


30 years ago, in this country a revolution became victorious in the name of Islam, a revolution for freedom, a revolution for reviving the dignity of men, a revolution for truth and justice. In those times, especially when our enlightened Imam [Khomeini] was alive, large amount of lives and matters were invested to legitimize this foundation and many valuable achievements were attained. An unprecedented enlightenment captured our society, and our people reached a new life where they endured the hardest of hardships with a sweet taste. What this people gained was dignity and freedom and a gift of the life of the pure ones [i.e. 12 Imams of Shiites]. I am certain that those who have seen those days will not be satisfied with anything less. Had we as a people lost certain talents that we were unable to experience that early spirituality? I had come to say that that was not the case. It is not late yet, we are not far from that enlightened space yet.

I had come to show that it was possible to live spiritually while living in a modern world. I had come to repeat Imam’s warnings about fundamentalism. I had come to say that evading the law leads to dictatorship; and to remind that paying attention to people’s dignity does not diminish the foundations of the regime, but strengthens it.

[PEP]

Yeah, the bankruptcy of the Soviet system and the free market's being established there had nothing to do with it.

Americans take way too much credit for the positive events in foreign lands and none of the blame for the bad.

The change here is being caused by the shitty state of Iran in general and the incredulous elections results given those conditions.
Are you always this dumb? Seriously, I'm not joking, I use to think you just played around with your never ending question after question. But I guess thats what you're all about.

Its unfortunate that you've always had someone to clean up after and baby you.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't ask a question in that one, but I will now.

What specifically is your problem with my post?

[PEP]

None of that means they view the United States in a good light. This is what you don't understand. The fact that they're protesting their government does not mean they like a country who has fucked over their country many times in the past.
How so?

[ChumpDumper]

How so?Are you always this dumb?

[exstatic]

The seeds have been there for over 100 years -- there's just a lot of shit that kept them from growing.

Mostly the US backing the repressive anti-Islam regimes.

[BlackSwordsMan]

nvm found it

[BlackSwordsMan]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124537040666029677.html





.
Where's the obama speech the first article was talking about?

[Cry Havoc]

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT

Not embedding this due to the subject matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlehNLfk90c

Horrible.

[jman3000]

Not to be an asshole... but welcome to 6 hours ago.

[ChumpDumper]

Well it is the weekend. Not everyone is following this as closely as you.

[exstatic]

How so?

Oh, I don't know...maybe overthrowing a legitimate regime and installing a brutal puppet government?

http://www.mrdowling.com/images/608shah.jpg

[Kori Ellis]

Well it is the weekend. Not everyone is following this as closely as you.

True. I didn't see the video until five minutes ago. It brings tears to your eyes and you have to turn your head away. So horrible.

[jman3000]

Well it is the weekend. Not everyone is following this as closely as you.

Point taken. I just figured he'd have read a few pages back.

[Heath Ledger]

Thanks Manny, very sad. Made me think of that phrase "the road to freedom is paved with blood". For some reason I always thought Iranians were a fairly well armed population. I'm going to go give my guns a hug now.

Were the vids taken down:? i did not see one with the girl being shot after scrolling through the whole page.

[Kori Ellis]

Were the vids taken down:? i did not see one with the girl being shot after scrolling through the whole page.

They are on YouTube. Just search for "iran girl shot." It's on there a lot from various angles.

[SnakeBoy]

The video coming out is just amazing in a very heart wrenching way. CNN just showed footage of a Basiji militia guy being beaten by protesters. The guy is on his knees and this woman steps in and literally hugs him to put her body in between him and the protestors to keep him from being beaten to death.

Didn't see it up on youtube yet.

[jman3000]

Sunrise in Tehran. The next 24 hours will be pivotal as to whether this gets crushed or is able to grow.

It's either going to be smaller than yesterday and the government is going to be able to really hone in on the pockets of resistance and stamp it out... or it's going to be bigger and escalate even further.

All signs point to it getting bigger, but with the regime really emphasizing deadly force now, it's hard to tell.

[DarrinS]

How 1978 of you.


In 1979 the Iranians wanted a theocracy. Completely the opposite in 2009. Just saying.

[jman3000]

In 1979 the Iranians wanted a theocracy. Completely the opposite in 2009. Just saying.

Um no... they want a theocracy. Read Mousavi's statement. They want a return to the roots of the revolution... not what it has morphed into.

Stop being so wrong all the time. Thanks.

[ChumpDumper]

That one had to sting.

[Heath Ledger]

I just saw the video and was quickly reduced to tears. From what I understand the actual protest was about a mile away and that fucker took a point blank shot at her heart.

It's disgusting, i hope for the sake of the country they overthrow those mullahs and the douchebag false president.

[DarrinS]

Um no... they want a theocracy. Read Mousavi's statement. They want a return to the roots of the revolution... not what it has morphed into.

Stop being so wrong all the time. Thanks.



So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.

[DarrinS]

It's disgusting, i hope for the sake of the country they overthrow those mullahs and the douchebag false president.


Didn't you read jman's post? THey love the mullahs.

[jman3000]

I just saw the video and was quickly reduced to tears. From what I understand the actual protest was about a mile away and that fucker took a point blank shot at her heart.

It's disgusting, i hope for the sake of the country they overthrow those mullahs and the douchebag false president.

From reports I read she was shot from a Basij on a rooftop. It said she was standing next to her father watching to procession walk by and I guess she was an easy, stationary target.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

my penis is so small i have to post ignorantly in a spurs site political forum for human interaction.

[jman3000]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.

You either don't have the ability to fully comprehend the situation or you're purposefully being ignorant to get a rise out people.

[DarrinS]

I'm obsessed with Darrin's penis.




Quit stalking me.


BTW, I'm not the one with almost 20K posts.

[ChumpDumper]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.Your search - "death to the Supreme Leader" - did not match any documents.

http://news.google.com/news?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&q="death+to+the+Supreme+Leader"

Strange, indeed.

[DarrinS]

You either don't have the ability to fully comprehend the situation or you're purposefully being ignorant to get a rise out people.


Oh, ok. I mostly post in response to ChumpDumper's smartass snide comments. He really has nothing to contribute to any discussion, other than to try and put someone else down. But, that seems to be a common theme on this board.

[sook]

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT

Not embedding this due to the subject matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlehNLfk90c

Horrible.

wow is all i have to say...but you should embed it. The youtube windo still requires you to click on it.

[jman3000]

Your search - "death to the Supreme Leader" - did not match any documents.

http://news.google.com/news?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&q="death+to+the+Supreme+Leader"

Strange, indeed.

No... they were making those chants. But those chants are to Khomeini. If they were saying "Death, death to the revolution" that would be a completely different thing.

Like Mousavi, the figurehead of this movement, has said... they want a return to the roots of the revolution and not the bastardized version which stands today.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, ok. I mostly post in response to ChumpDumper's smartass snide comments. He really has nothing to contribute to any discussion, other than to try and put someone else down. But, that seems to be a common theme on this board.Hey, if you stopped spouting pure ignorance and lies on this board, I wouldn't treat you like the punching bag you have made yourself here.

[timvp]

If it weren't for YouTube and Twitter, the "Iran protests" would be a small blurb on a world news report. They don't seem to have anywhere near the numbers needed for any kind of revolution. Perhaps a step in the revolution direction ... but it's getting sensationalized due to the new media. Americans are eating this ish up but it will get stomped out quite easily.

[DarrinS]

Hey, if you stopped spouting pure ignorance and lies on this board, I wouldn't treat you like the punching bag you have made yourself here.

Great example. Thanks.

[ChumpDumper]

No... they were making those chants. But those chants are to Khomeini. If they were saying "Death, death to the revolution" that would be a completely different thing.

Like Mousavi, the figurehead of this movement, has said... they want a return to the roots of the revolution and not the bastardized version which stands today.Everything I had read says "death to the dictator" -- meaning Ahmadinejad.

[exstatic]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.
Strange that you think there is only one man to lead a theocracy.

Didn't you read jman's post? THey love the mullahs.
All except one, apparently.

[DarrinS]

If it weren't for YouTube and Twitter, the "Iran protests" would be a small blurb on a world news report. They don't seem to have anywhere near the numbers needed for any kind of revolution. Perhaps a step in the revolution direction ... but it's getting sensationalized due to the new media. Americans are eating this ish up but it will get stomped out quite easily.



I don't know, there was a pretty significant turnout Friday. Looked like DC after Obama won.

[MannyIsGod]

In 1979 the Iranians wanted a theocracy. Completely the opposite in 2009. Just saying.


Sigh.

[ChumpDumper]

Great example. Thanks.Don't be stupid and I won't call you stupid. Thanks.

[MannyIsGod]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.


You have absolutely no idea what they want do you?

[sook]

Darrins is quite misinformed.

[jman3000]

The video playing on CNN right now is terrifying.

[DarrinS]

Don't be stupid and I won't call you stupid. Thanks.


I'm not dumb, but you are a dick.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not dumb, but you are a dick.You are ignorant and proud of it.

You are a neocon and want to pretend you aren't.

You outright lie for no reason other than to try to save your own fatally flawed arguments.

I am definitely a dick to such people. It's your tough shit if you can't handle it.

[jman3000]

Don't be stupid and I won't call you stupid. Thanks.

That pretty much sums it up.

You make statements that are almost humorously easy to refute and then you want to engage in a serious discussion based on your sarcasm and lack of facts vs. the truth?

[MannyIsGod]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?

Strange.

Does you constantly bitching about Obama mean you don't want a president?

[jman3000]

Here comes a shit storm of sarcastic comments and smilies....

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, ok. I mostly post in response to ChumpDumper's smartass snide comments. He really has nothing to contribute to any discussion, other than to try and put someone else down. But, that seems to be a common theme on this board.

I guess you could say we suffer fools poorly.

[DarrinS]

Does you constantly bitching about Obama mean you don't want a president?


Ha ha. Good one. You got me there.

[jman3000]

Everything I had read says "death to the dictator" -- meaning Ahmadinejad.

The reports are unconfirmed... but I'd honestly believe it at this point. He basically gave the green light to massacre these people. They have no reason not to wish death upon him.

[DarrinS]

I guess you could say we suffer fools poorly.


I'm just curious, Manny, are you a 20-something recent graduate with a liberal arts degree?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm just curious, Manny, are you a 20-something recent graduate with a liberal arts degree?This will certainly add to the discussion.

[DarrinS]

This will certainly add to the discussion.

Was I addressing you?


BTW, your comments add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

[sook]

someone cut T-Mac's head out and put Obama's there for Darrins


cpQwZC_ChcM&feature=related

[ChumpDumper]

Was I addressing you?I am directly addressing you.

How do you plan to add to the discussion with that question?

[DarrinS]

someone cut T-Mac's head out and put Obama's there for Darrins




I actually liked what Obama had to say today. Happy?

[DarrinS]

I am directly addressing you.

How do you plan to add to the discussion with that question?


With all due respect, please fuck off.

[ChumpDumper]

BTW, your comments add absolutely nothing to the discussion.On the contrary, your misinformation and ignorance needs to be exposed for what they are.

Fortunately, as others said, it's really easy to do so.

[jman3000]

Because if he answers yes he can just dismiss him as another creation of the institutionalized liberal agenda.

[ChumpDumper]

With all due respect, please fuck off.This is really adding to the discussion.

[jman3000]

This thread has devolved into a "bash DarinS" thread.

In other news:

Apparently there was reports of non-Farsi speaking Basij members. Which hints at Iran importing foreign help... which in turn kinda sorta hints that maybe some of the Basij have defected. I don't wanna read too much into it... but it makes sense.

Sort of similar to all the foreign fighters that popped up in Iraq after the invasion.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin no I am not - but my GF is - does that make you feel better?

[ChumpDumper]

This thread has devolved into a "bash DarinS" thread.

In other news:

Apparently there was reports of non-Farsi speaking Basij members. Which hints at Iran importing foreign help... which in turn kinda sorta hints that maybe some of the Basij have defected. I don't wanna read too much into it... but it makes sense.

Sort of similar to all the foreign fighters that popped up in Iraq after the invasion.Well there are several languages spoke inside Iran, right? It would make sense that some Basij moved in or were called in from other regions inside the country.

[PixelPusher]

Darrin no I am not - but my GF is - does that make you feel better?

cause, you see, a liberal arts degree means you're, like, all liberal and shit...

[sook]

I actually liked what Obama had to say today. Happy?

Happy? I don't like Obama either you idiot. The fact is I don't go mentioning his name in every sentence.

[jman3000]

Well there are several languages spoke inside Iran, right? It would make sense that some Basij moved in or were called in from other regions inside the country.

Probably true, which is why I said I don't really want to read too much into it. I think it is still a possibility though.

[jman3000]

Ann Coulter is a stupid bitch.

That is all.

[PixelPusher]

If it weren't for YouTube and Twitter, the "Iran protests" would be a small blurb on a world news report. They don't seem to have anywhere near the numbers needed for any kind of revolution. Perhaps a step in the revolution direction ... but it's getting sensationalized due to the new media. Americans are eating this ish up but it will get stomped out quite easily.

It's precisely because of the social media coverage they haven't stomped it out after a whole week. You can call it "sensationalized" if you want, but that doesn't diminish the new-found power of a movement who won't be denied their due of sunlight and martyrdom. As long as thousand of little phones and flip-cams are rolling, they can't be "dissappeared".

[jman3000]

You can't base snippets of phone video as a basis for saying they don't have the numbers for revolution. I know you said seem, but this thing is close to reaching critical mass. That girl who was shot is now seen as a martyr... and as is known... Muslims rally around martyrs in a big way. I know others have died... but hers has the potential for the most to see and the severity of it can only inspire others.

I know it made me feel something and I'm thousands of miles away.

[PixelPusher]

Muslims rally around martyrs in a big way.

Shia Muslim in particular.

[DarrinS]

Darrin no I am not - but my GF is - does that make you feel better?

Thought maybe you were political science or journalism. Like I said, I was just curious.

[MannyIsGod]

Thought maybe you were political science or journalism. Like I said, I was just curious.

Working on a meteorology degree.

[timvp]

It's precisely because of the social media coverage they haven't stomped it out after a whole week.Isn't that a negative in terms of having the numbers and the fanaticism needed to follow through with a revolution? I personally don't think a people that is ready to truly challenge its government would rely on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to keep the momentum.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd say by the end of the month, any organized protests will be a thing of the past. The best a revolutionary Iranian can hope is that this is the planting of seeds for the future, IMO.

[jman3000]

An argument could be made that the seeds were planted in 99 and 03. The students who participated in those protests are now in their low 30's upper 20's.

An even better argument could be made that this isn't really a revolution... just a correction.

[timvp]

That girl who was shot is now seen as a martyrIran will block that video. There are ways to get around their internet censoring but that's attainable by less than 1% of their population.


... and as is known...Do we have a name yet?


Muslims rally around martyrs in a big way. I know others have died... but hers has the potential for the most to see and the severity of it can only inspire others.

I know it made me feel something and I'm thousands of miles away.It no doubt sucked but, IMO, it's going to take more than a random female getting killed in a video 90%+ of the people will never see to spark a true revolution.

[DarrinS]

Working on a meteorology degree.


I honestly never would've figured that. That's an interesting field.

[jman3000]

Iran will block that video. There are ways to get around their internet censoring but that's attainable by less than 1% of their population.

Do we have a name yet?

It no doubt sucked but, IMO, it's going to take more than a random female getting killed in a video 90%+ of the people will never see to spark a true revolution.

The whole dissemination of information and media was gone over before. I threw around some theories earlier in the thread.

Nada. Apparently it means "the voice"

The spark was the fraudulent vote. Her killing, the Supreme Leader's lies, the violence in the streets, the solidarity being shown, Mousavi's moving statement and his willingness to die for this cause, etc. etc.... that's gasoline being thrown on the fire.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not so sure about people not seeing it. I'm not sure this will grow either though. Just going to have to sit back and watch.

[DarrinS]

Isn't that a negative in terms of having the numbers and the fanaticism needed to follow through with a revolution? I personally don't think a people that is ready to truly challenge its government would rely on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube to keep the momentum.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd say by the end of the month, any organized protests will be a thing of the past. The best a revolutionary Iranian can hope is that this is the planting of seeds for the future, IMO.


I don't think they rely on it for momentum, they rely on it to get information out so the world can be a witness. Maybe they are hoping for some outside help, pressure, sanctions, etc.

[jman3000]

It could be their Alamo. It could be their French Revolution. It could be a lot of things. Like Manny said... it's best to just sit back and watch at this point.

[DarrinS]

Isn't the govt's cutting off communications a duel-edged sword? Don't they need these same communications to run their country? Wouldn't they need them to coordinate their violent crackdowns?

[baseline bum]

cause, you see, a liberal arts degree means you're, like, all liberal and shit...

No, but him being educated points in that direction.

[E20]

Ann Coulter is a stupid bitch.

That is all.

I am curious, what did she say?

[jman3000]

Isn't the govt's cutting off communications a duel-edged sword? Don't they need these same communications to run their country? Wouldn't they need them to coordinate their violent crackdowns?

That' exactly what is happening. I'm sure the government uses different frequencies than the rest of the population... but businesses don't and their economy is going to really hurt the longer this goes on (it's already in a dire situation). The regime will have some tough choices to make on this subject and all of them pretty much help the reformer's cause.

[jman3000]

I am curious, what did she say?

I don't remember word for word... but she was trying to turn the situation into a complete partisan argument. It pissed me off because that's exactly what it shouldn't be.

It shouldn't have surprised me considering where it came from.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If it weren't for YouTube and Twitter, the "Iran protests" would be a small blurb on a world news report.

Are you kidding me? The Georgia issue was sensationalized while it burnt hot and that was going on while most americans were watching that million man bull shit china opening day happy fun joy performance.

[timvp]

An even better argument could be made that this isn't really a revolution... just a correction.If the election was rigged, that means the entire government is corrupt. To cleanse the government, that by definition would take a revolution. In practice, it would also take a revolution effort.

It's much more complicated than simply replacing Ahmadinejad. From most accounts, he's just a pawn front.

[timvp]

I don't think they rely on it for momentum, they rely on it to get information out so the world can be a witness. Maybe they are hoping for some outside help, pressure, sanctions, etc.

Facebook and Twitter are being used to plan and orchestrate the protest rallies, not simply to give the outside world a look at what is happening.

[timvp]

Are you kidding me? The Georgia issue was sensationalized while it burnt hot and that was going on while most americans were watching that million man bull shit china opening day happy fun joy performance.

yew jess cant dew tings lak dat

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't think anyone in this thread that has been following it ever thought there would really be any revolution. But it's like that spurs locker room quote about trying to crack away at the rock, and even though it's the last chip that breaks it, it was also all the blows previous that helped it break...

shittiest paraphrase ever, but you get what I'm referring to

[jman3000]

If the election was rigged, that means the entire government is corrupt. To cleanse the government, that by definition would take a revolution. In practice, it would also take a revolution effort.

It's much more complicated than simply replacing Ahmadinejad. From most accounts, he's just a pawn front.

Revolution is usually used in terms of changing the entire structure of the government, as in going from Communist to Democracy. In this case... they just want to put people in place that are more in tune with the ideals of the original revolution.

Maybe it's gotten to the point where that's no longer possible... but as of now that's what they have stated they want.

It's semantics though... I'm just saying there's an argument for it being a revolution-lite as opposed to a full blown revolution.

[timvp]

trying to crack away at the rock, and even though it's the last chip that breaks it, it was also all the blows previous that helped it break...

[jman3000]

I liked the Serbian version better.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

WOW timvp you sure showed me. Too bad you aren't posting in the spurstalk forum with thousands of timvpiites to post comforting replies of approval.

[timvp]

WOW timvp you sure showed me. Too bad you aren't posting in the spurstalk forum with thousands of timvpiites to post comforting replies of approval.
:lol Damn bro. That's some healthy anger.

If you've followed along, I've already covered all your points aimed toward me. No need for a breakdown, simply RIF.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:lol Damn bro. That's some healthy anger.

If you've followed along, I've already covered all your points aimed toward me. No need for a breakdown, simply RIF.

Ehhh, i don't get it. RIF? I'm just sayin...I already admitted it was the shittiest paraphrase ever, you didn't have to rub it in, but i still think it's a good analogy.

[jman3000]

Perhaps his post was more for clarification than for rubbing it in..

[exstatic]

This is a comforting reply of approval for timvp.

a timvpiite

[Winehole23]

In 1979 the Iranians wanted a theocracy. Completely the opposite in 2009. Just saying.What makes you think so?

Why do you think green is the thematic color here?

[Winehole23]

So, they want a theocracy, but they chant "death to the Supreme Leader"?Did people who wanted Bush impeached hate our system of government, or did they just want another leader?

[Winehole23]

He really has nothing to contribute to any discussion, other than to try and put someone else down. But, that seems to be a common theme on this board.Yes. One that you contribute to mightily yourself.

[Winehole23]

I'm not dumb, but you are a dick. You are dumb, and you are a dick.

[Winehole23]

This thread has devolved into a "bash DarinS" thread.He earned it.

[DarrinS]

Facebook and Twitter are being used to plan and orchestrate the protest rallies, not simply to give the outside world a look at what is happening.


I stand corrected. I'm not a Twit (or whatever they call users of Twitter).

[DarrinS]

Damn. I just looked up. Evidently, WhineHole is obsessed with me now. Geez.

[Winehole23]

Damn. I just looked up. Evidently, WhineHole is obsessed with me now. Geez.Don't flatter yourself.

You're the equivalent of verbal litter in this forum and it pissed me off.

I was also drunk.

[Winehole23]

Trying to reason with you is like teaching dialectic to a donkey. I should have picked up the quirt sooner.

[DarrinS]

Trying to reason with you is like teaching dialectic to a donkey. I should have picked up the quirt sooner.


Based on your posts, it's obvious that you, ExtraStout, and MarcusBryant are intelligent. Sometimes the fancy rhetoric helps your arguments, sometimes it doesn't. I don't pretend to know everything -- I don't. I just state my opinions. Do I need to preface everything I say with "I think"? If you think I'm wrong, just say why. There's no need for insults. We can agree to disagree. It's becoming obvious to me that many posters here are much younger than me. The prevailing tactic in today's universities is to band together and shout down those you disagree with, rather than challenge their ideas.

[FaithInOne]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4282/whatwhat.gif

[Winehole23]

If you think I'm wrong, just say why. I've tried this. Repeatedly. You don't pay attention.


There's no need for insults.It's the only thing that really seems to work. Your response to reasoned discourse is stuffing your ears with chewing gum and substituting what posters say with whatever you think of them for disagreeing. That's rude and insulting.


We can agree to disagree.Nope. Your obdurate stupidity and your rather provocative obliviousness to others makes it nearly impossible for me.


It's becoming obvious to me that many posters here are much younger than me. The prevailing tactic in today's universities is to band together and shout down those you disagree with, rather than challenge their ideas.Swing and a miss. You and me are exactly the same age.

I've tried addressing your ideas repeatedly, such as they are, but you're too submental -- or too much of a coward -- to respond in kind.

I'm sure you will counter with your own *opinion* but the record doesn't lie.

The problem isn't that your detractors are incapable of reason. It's that you continually exhaust their patience. You repay rhetorical bona fides with snideness, mulish inattention and dishonesty. Then you cry that people lack reason and civility when it pisses them off. You may be fooling yourself but I assure you, no one else is fooled.

[Winehole23]

As usual, Darrin focuses on the insults and ignores all the tough questions.