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timvp
06-22-2009, 04:35 PM
After the Spurs got eliminated from the playoffs in April for the first time in a dozen years, I took the opportunity to go on vacation for the month of May. That month turned into seven weeks.

I went into the vacation wanting to cut myself off from all things Spurs. While my curiosity to check SpursTalk from time to time got the best of me, it was a great opportunity to "fill the cup", as Pop would say.

During the vacation, I did a lot of fishing, hiking and more fishing. Even the Lakers championship couldn't spoil my tranquility.

As I attempted to become one with nature, I spent a lot of time thinking about what the Spurs need to do to squeeze in championship number five before the Tim Duncan Window slams shut. However, prior to looking ahead, I want to take time to look at what went wrong for the 2008-09 San Antonio Spurs.

By the final buzzer of Game 5, the shortcomings of the team were obvious. But how did the Spurs get to that point? I believe it was a combination of three aspects.

I. Injuries

Most objective Spurs fans knew that San Antonio's playoff hopes were doomed from the start. Injuries had all but officially ended the season prior to the postseason. There was a tiny, tiny flicker of hope, in theory. But even saying the Spurs had a 1% chance to win the championship prior to the playoffs probably was a bit optimistic in hindsight.


A. Manu Ginobili

When all was said and done in the 2008-09 campaign, Ginobili had played in 44 games and missed 43 games. As it turned out, the stress fracture that ended his season also ended the season for the Spurs.

The controversy surrounding his injury woes goes back to the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Did Ginobili suiting up for Argentina and subsequently getting injured lead to his injury ravaged season? First of all, we'll never know conclusively one way or the other. It's just an impossibility to say for sure.

That said, I do think his injuries were connected. Ginobili was forced to try to go from 0 to 60 after missing all of training camp and the preseason. While he eventually found his rhythm, he never really looked overly comfortable on the court. His gait appeared to be odd, which could have contributed to the stress reaction and the resulting stress fracture.

But maybe his injuries aren't connected. Perhaps he just had an unlucky season. Either way, I'm 100% still in Ginobili's corner. Expecting him to skip the Olympics is lunacy. I would have done the exact same thing. Anyone with any type of competitive pulse would have done the same thing.



B. Tim Duncan

Entering the playoffs, there was the hope that Duncan would be able to flip the switch and rise above his pair of sore knees. While he didn't exactly play poorly in the postseason, he wasn't the dominant Duncan we've come to know and expect.

Going back to the regular season, it was day and night when comparing a healthy Duncan and a hobbled Duncan. To begin the season, he was playing at an extremely high level. He was able to score efficiently, he elevated the play of those around him and his passing was better than ever. But then after his tendonosis, it's like he aged ten years overnight.

Did Duncan's knees tire from carrying the team on his back early in the season? Was it just another case of bad luck? Did we just witness the beginning of the end of the superstar Duncan?

I don't have the answer. Hopefully Duncan will be able to bounce back and play superstar level basketball for at least a couple more seasons. If not, that window may have already closed on number five.



C. Ian Mahinmi

It's blasphemy to even list Mahinmi with the two players above him in this section but he was the forgotten injury of the season. Pop said that he was going to play him 35 minutes per game in the preseason. If Mahinmi had shined in that role, the entire course of the season would have been altered.

Right now, nobody knows what the Spurs have in Mahinmi. He could be a poor man's Francisco Elson. He may be that athletic bigman who can provide the energy, shotblocking and intimidation this team desperately needs. Hopefully the Spurs will be able to figure out the truth this coming season.



II. Coaching Mistakes

As a coach, Pop is a gambler. He rarely goes with the road most traveled. As a result, he often either looks like a genius or he makes you scratch your head raw. There's rarely any middle ground when it comes to Pop's coaching.

In the past, he's rolled the dice and won. In the 1999 championship run, he invested in a pair of castoffs in Jaren Jackson and Malik Rose and that investment paid off tenfold by the time the Larry O'Brien was being raised. He 2003, he invested in Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton -- and won again. In 2005, he refused to give up on Robert Horry and Horry responded with amazing play. Sticking with a seemingly decrepit Horry once again paid off in 2007.

In the 2009 playoffs, virtually all of Pop's gambles blew up in his face. His investments resulted in a total loss. You can call it bad coaching. I think it's more of a gambling coach who rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

What gambles went bad?


A. Trusting Matt Bonner

Watching Pop stick with Bonner was like watching a car wreck in slow motion. Bonner's tendency to be overwhelmed by pressure was a major red flag heading into the playoffs. As it turned out, Bonner's postseason play was even worse than anyone could have imagined.

It's somewhat easy to see what Pop was hoping. Starting Bonner spaced the court for the Spurs and gave Duncan room to operate. His shooting made him a quality pick-and-roll participant and his defense was underrated -- especially in terms of moving his feet on the perimeter. But all of those positive attributes on paper went limp when Bonner entered the reality of the playoffs and failed miserably.

Watching the Orlando Magic, you can sort of see what Pop was thinking. The Magic relied on one interior player surrounded by a team of shooters who can stretch the floor. With the new rules of the NBA, it's almost impossible to deny penetration. With penetration comes a sagging defense, which results in open shooters. That's where Bonner should have been valuable.

The result of relying on Bonner makes it look like a bad coaching move but I think the reasoning was somewhat sound.


B. Playing Roger Mason, Jr. at Point Guard

This had to be one of the more frustrating moves Pop made in the 2008-09 season. Out of the blue, Pop decided to try to stick Mason into the backup point guard position -- and stubbornly kept at it.

It never seemed to work in the regular season and worked even less in the postseason. Mason looked like a fish out of water who couldn't handle the ball well enough, pass well enough or create well enough to play point guard.

Why did Pop do it? I think the answers are many. First, he obviously thought George Hill wasn't ready for the limelight. Second, he wanted to provide the bench unit with more scoring. Third, and most important, he did it for Mason.

If you look at Mason's play, some of his best games early in the season came at point guard. He's a player who needs the ball to get into a groove and what better way to get the ball than to be point guard? You can even go back to his Wizards days and see he played best when at point guard. Mason himself even said that he enjoys playing point guard.

What happened? I'm not sure. My best guess is that teams adjusted to the fact that he almost always looked for the jumper off of the pick-and-roll. Once they took away his jumper and made him drive and create, Mason was taken out of his comfort zone.

Pop remained confident in Mason hoping he'd be able to readjust -- but that readjustment never came to fruition.



C. Banishing George Hill

Hill seemed to be having a relatively good rookie season. He had his ups and downs but overall Hill seemed to be an able member of the rotation. Pop apparently disagreed with that assessment and figured that Hill simply wasn't ready.

Pop probably had bad memories of Beno Udrih crash landing in the NBA Finals and almost costing the team a championship. With Mason showing to be a decent point guard and Hill still having room to grow, Pop decided to take Hill out of the direct sunlight coming down the stretch of the season.

In retrospect, the move appears to have been a mistake. When given a chance in the playoffs, Hill looked like he belonged in the rotation. Perhaps not as a point guard but at least somewhere out on the perimeter.



D. Believing in Michael Finley

By the end of the season, Finley was getting big minutes game in and game out. But I don't think that was Pop's plan from the beginning. Bruce Bowen began the year as the starting small forward. Pop then inserted Ime Udoka into the starting lineup at small forward but Udoka struggled mightily. Finley was the third and final answer at small forward.

In the regular season, he actually wasn't that bad. In fact, it may have been his best season as a member of the Spurs. But like Bonner, most Spurs fans saw the disastrous end before it played out on the court. Finley was just too old, too slow and too unathletic to compete when the going got tough in the postseason.

Pop seemed to be hoping for an Horry-esque miracle out of Finley. That never came, to say the least.



E. Giving Up on Bruce Bowen

This may have been the oddest gamble of them all by Pop. The coach who has drilled defense first, defense second and defense last decided to bench his defensive ace for basically the entire season? It is a decision I will never understand.

Predictably, Bowen was one of the team's lone bright spots when the playoffs rolled around -- on both ends of the court. He not only was the best perimeter defender, he was also the one shooter who didn't seem frightened by the stage.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Pop thought the Spurs needed more offense than Bowen could provide. As a result, Pop went with the home run in hoping Finley could turn back the clock instead of going with the ol' dependable with three championships to his name. It was surely a gamble -- and a bad one at that, in my opinion.


III. Lack of Talent

The truth in its rawest form is that even if the Spurs were healthy and even if Pop's gambles paid off, a championship still was likely unattainable due to a lack of talent. The roster has slowly eroded over the years thanks to limited money and limited quality draft picks to work with.

Could a team win a championship that relied on Bonner and Finley to play major roles? I just don't think so. For the Spurs to win a fifth championship, I believe that an increase in talent level is needed. There doesn't have to be sweeping changes but spots 4 through 12 on the roster need a bit of tweaking.

Overall, the 2008-09 will likely be remembered as a lost season. If the Spurs bounce back, history will remember it as an injury plagued season. If the Spurs don't bounce back, history will remember it as the first sign of slippage as the San Antonio slid into mediocrity.

Let's believe it will be the former and not the latter.






If you are still reading this, I'd like to thank you for being apart of the SpursTalk community. During the offseason, Kori and I have some plans to hopefully better the site. If you have any comments, questions or recommendations for the future of SpursTalk, feel free to email the website at [email protected].

In the coming 48 hours, I hope to outline my beliefs of what the Spurs should do during this offseason to return to the top. I will also be writing the 9th annual Spurs draft cheat sheet in that time frame. (Speaking of the draft, I will be moving the draft threads into the main Spurs forum so that we can concentrate on the draft -- even though it does appear to be quite underwhelming, especially from San Antonio's perspective.)

Oh and I'll also now start replying to the email and private messages I ignored while on vacation. I apologize in advance for any late replies.

Thanks again.

mookie2001
06-22-2009, 04:38 PM
we all know youre in ginobilis corner, yall have to be for globalization reasons

DPG21920
06-22-2009, 04:43 PM
I agree with most of it, good stuff. Looking forward to the future.

IMO, the most important thing you noted was this: Even if fully healthy, the Spurs were not winning a title. All of the other stuff is trivial really (Injuries, coaching mistakes...). I think every fan, although hard to admit, knew this.

I think the coaches knew this and so did Tim, TP and Manu. So all of the other problems do not matter (injuries do obviously) relatively speaking. The Spurs need major upgrades to close the wide gap between them and the Lakers.

Who knows if it is possible within the Spurs system? But healthy or not, the Spurs cannot win unless they upgrade significantly.

spurspokesman
06-22-2009, 05:00 PM
Well let's just hope they don't chalk it up as an injury plagued season and face reality. Our roster was one lid short of A trash can. Old and scrubby. Also i'd rather fail giving new players A chance and seeing what they bring than staying the course with guys that just wont cut it. Good thread by the way.

benefactor
06-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Nice thoughts...and I think that most reasonable fans agree completely with your assessment. This was a difficult year to watch because it was undoubtedly a "car wreck in slow motion." It was a strange year with strange decisions that led to exactly what most of us thought it would lead to. As of right now, I have full confidence that as long as the big three are healthy we have a chance. Hopefully the FO will be diligent in mapping out the rest of the roster with the right pieces...and when situations arise where one or more of those pieces are not effective they will make adjustments accordingly instead of watching the ship slowly take on water.

DPG21920
06-22-2009, 05:18 PM
Well let's just hope they don't chalk it up as an injury plagued season and face reality. Our roster was one lid short of A trash can. Old and scrubby. Also i'd rather fail giving new players A chance and seeing what they bring than staying the course with guys that just wont cut it. Good thread by the way.

I do not think they will do that at all. I am not sure what they will be able to do in real terms to improve the team's situation (signing FA, trades, draft...), but I would highly doubt they think it was just a health issue last year.

Everyone knows it is a talent issue.

Yogurt210
06-22-2009, 05:23 PM
all this was pretty much obvious.

benefactor
06-22-2009, 05:27 PM
all this was pretty much obvious.
Thank you for your earth shaking contribution to this thread. I will probably never be the same after reading it.

VivaPopovich
06-22-2009, 05:29 PM
very well written!

xellos88330
06-22-2009, 05:32 PM
Awesome thread! Pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly. The thing that I was most disappointed about this season was the benching of George Hill. He provided much needed energy for the Spurs in the postseason. I am also looking foward to the play of Ian Mahinmi. I think that kid has some serious potential. Hopefully he works out. If not, its a damn shame.

spurtilldeath
06-22-2009, 05:54 PM
This is a good analysis. However, to the point that talent needs upgrade, I'm afraid that Spurs would be operating under limited possibilities and options, thanks to the economy, their financial viability and lack of availability of disposable talent that could fetch something meaningful in return. This upcoming season very well could be hard for spurs in terms of managing expectations. Let us hope lady luck smiles on Spurs this time around.

rayray2k8
06-22-2009, 06:16 PM
:tu
Can't wait for the draft cheat sheet.
Timvp, let me ask you this, you think there might be any truth to what some of the posters
are saying as to the spurs possibly moving up in the draft?
Or would it be wise to use the draft to move some dead weight on draft night?(Bonner, Oberto, Finely)

duncan228
06-22-2009, 06:23 PM
Thanks for the overview, and welcome back. Gald you were able to take some time for yourself.

I think it helps to try to put it in perspective now that the initial shock of a first round exit has worn off. Seeing it all in one place is a little overwhelming. There's a lot that needs to be addressed for any shot at another Title in the Duncan Era.

I hope they do everything they can to 'fix' things; even if they do there are still things, like injury, that are out of their control.


Hopefully Duncan will be able to bounce back and play superstar level basketball for at least a couple more seasons. If not, that window may have already closed on number five.

I don't think anything can be done to overcome Duncan being too hurt to play at a high level. It's the biggest concern for me, along with Manu. If they're healthy it makes everything else easier to deal with.

Spurs Brazil
06-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Great read timvp.

I was missing your thoughts. Read McDonald to know about the Spurs sucks.

iilluzioN
06-22-2009, 06:36 PM
FUN TO READ!

Thank you timvp for all you do!

Libri
06-22-2009, 06:42 PM
A. Trusting Matt Bonner

Watching Pop stick with Bonner was like watching a car wreck in slow motion. Bonner's tendency to be overwhelmed by pressure was a major red flag heading into the playoffs. As it turned out, Bonner's postseason play was even worse than anyone could have imagined.

It's somewhat easy to see what Pop was hoping. Starting Bonner spaced the court for the Spurs and gave Duncan room to operate. His shooting made him a quality pick-and-roll participant and his defense was underrated -- especially in terms of moving his feet on the perimeter. But all of those positive attributes on paper went limp when Bonner entered the reality of the playoffs and failed miserably.

Watching the Orlando Magic, you can sort of see what Pop was thinking. The Magic relied on one interior player surrounded by a team of shooters who can stretch the floor. With the new rules of the NBA, it's almost impossible to deny penetration. With penetration comes a sagging defense, which results in open shooters. That's where Bonner should have been valuable.

The result of relying on Bonner makes it look like a bad coaching move but I think the reasoning was somewhat sound.As I recall, Bonner disappeared the moment Gooden came on board. I haven't been able to explain why. Maybe his confidence got raddled or something. After the Gooden signing, Bonner started missing those shots he usually made.

Libri
06-22-2009, 06:57 PM
The truth in its rawest form is that even if the Spurs were healthy and even if Pop's gambles paid off, a championship still was likely unattainable due to a lack of talent. The roster has slowly eroded over the years thanks to limited money and limited quality draft picks to work with.:depressed

Spurtacus
06-22-2009, 06:59 PM
Great read. I agree with most of your points. The Bonner ship had its ups and downs this season but when it mattered the most he choked. I'm confident we would have made it to the WC Finals with a healthy team and Hill as backup point. I also thought Gooden should have been utilized more in the Mavs series. If I recall correctly he didn't play a single minute in the last game.

DPG21920
06-22-2009, 07:03 PM
Great read. I agree with most of your points. The Bonner ship had its ups and downs this season but when it mattered the most he choked. I'm confident we would have made it to the WC Finals with a healthy team and Hill as backup point. I also thought Gooden should have been utilized more in the Mavs series. If I recall correctly he didn't play a single minute in the last game.

If healthy I think the Spurs could have made it to the WCF, but who cares, they would not have beat the Lakers.

The Mavs series was over before it started realistically (when Gino went down) and nothing Pop could have done would have made a significant difference imo. He still could have done many things better for sure, but it would not have changed the series enough to win.

Lets hope the Spurs can have a bit of luck and land a nice FA and make a nice trade or two. Hopefully, Ian can surprise and come in hungry and earn some serious rotational minutes. That would be a huge boost.

Bruno
06-22-2009, 07:05 PM
I have zero regrets about this season. The day Manu was out, Spurs season was done and I've started to look at 09-10.

I look at the positive side of last year :

First, Spurs losing quickly was a damn good news. Duncan will have tons of rest for his knees and Parker playing for his NT will be as harmless as it can be.

Second, the total disaster of the Mavs series allow Spurs FO to draw some definitive conclusions. There are few questions marks in this team.

holcs50
06-22-2009, 07:10 PM
Another spot on article. Agree with pretty much everything and as pointed out earlier it is the glaring weaknesses in talent that is this teams ultimate downfall. I would've been even more pissed if we had a completely healthy team in the playoffs last year and still couldn't get it done because there's such a steep drop in talent after the main 3. Besides being old as dirt/lacking athleticism at the SG/SF positions, the big man situation is just as bad. Mahinmi could help a ton if he can come in and do 8 and 8 or something around that and manage a block now and then as well as being a player who can clog the lane and alter some shots-but if he doesn't come thru we need to have a backup upgrade over bonner,oberto, KT (gooden is most likely gone). It's never been so obvious since TD came on board that this team is falling way behind other teams in bench/supporting talent.

DPG21920
06-22-2009, 07:15 PM
I think there are some definite question marks Bruno:

1) Will Manu and Tim be healthy enough to play at an elite level?

2) If they are not healthy, if the decline has appeared rapidly, do you blow the team up?

3) Do you extend Ginobili? It depends largely on question 1. If he is healthy, what will it take? If he is not, do you let him expire or trade him? If so, for what logically?

4) Who can the Spurs draft, sign via free agency or trade for this year in order to propel them into serious contention? This depends on question 1.

3) Is 2010 still a viable option given the way the league is headed? Do you abandon the plan or do you go with what you can get now for better or worse because you do not think you can get anything in 2010?


Edit: unless you meant there were no question marks about the need to upgrade from the FO perspective.

Solid D
06-22-2009, 07:22 PM
timvp, very well thought-out recap.

Injuries and poor defense made this past season hard to watch. It was like watching the French NT trying to qualify.

Bruno
06-22-2009, 07:38 PM
I think there are some definite question marks Bruno:

1) Will Manu and Tim be healthy enough to play at an elite level?

2) If they are not healthy, if the decline has appeared rapidly, do you blow the team up?

3) Do you extend Ginobili? It depends largely on question 1. If he is healthy, what will it take? If he is not, do you let him expire or trade him? If so, for what logically?

4) Who can the Spurs draft, sign via free agency or trade for this year in order to propel them into serious contention? This depends on question 1.

3) Is 2010 still a viable option given the way the league is headed? Do you abandon the plan or do you go with what you can get now for better or worse because you do not think you can get anything in 2010?


Edit: unless you meant there were no question marks about the need to upgrade from the FO perspective.

If Ginobili and Duncan are done, Spurs are done and what the FO do is meaningless.

Bruno
06-22-2009, 07:38 PM
Injuries and poor defense made this past season hard to watch. It was like watching the French NT trying to qualify.

Fuck you.

Solid D
06-22-2009, 07:45 PM
Sorry, just speaking from the heart....but not aimed at you, Bruno.

Maybe this summer, things will change for the Spurs AND the French NT. One can only hope.

usckk
06-22-2009, 08:03 PM
I'm still optimistic. With all the adversity (injuries), the Spurs still managed to get the 3 seed! I realized that the Spurs severely lack athleticism and talent, but the Spurs good fundamentals are able to compensate for that, at least for the most part. That's why Magic could not compete in the series against the Lakers. They had the talent, but the Magic lacked the mental-toughness needed to win the championship.

BELIEVE!

Brazil
06-22-2009, 08:18 PM
If you are still reading this, I'd like to thank you for being apart of the SpursTalk community. During the offseason, Kori and I have some plans to hopefully better the site. If you have any comments, questions or recommendations for the future of SpursTalk, feel free to email the website at [email protected].

In the coming 48 hours, I hope to outline my beliefs of what the Spurs should do during this offseason to return to the top. I will also be writing the 9th annual Spurs draft cheat sheet in that time frame. (Speaking of the draft, I will be moving the draft threads into the main Spurs forum so that we can concentrate on the draft -- even though it does appear to be quite underwhelming, especially from San Antonio's perspective.)

Oh and I'll also now start replying to the email and private messages I ignored while on vacation. I apologize in advance for any late replies.

Thanks again.

I read it ! :toast

1Parker1
06-22-2009, 08:34 PM
This was a very rough season, it was even hard to watch Spurs games at some points during the season, the offense and defense were just that horrendous and inconsistent.

That being said, I agree with you 100%. Despite everything, even if the Spurs were healthy, I'm not sure their championship odds increased by that much. The talent around the Big 3 is very non-existent, especially when you take into consideration how the leagues other top championship caliber teams are built; all with young, athletic, or long players.

DrHouse
06-22-2009, 08:36 PM
There's an easy answer to all of this:

Your team is old and on its last legs.

All good things must come to an end, the Spurs had a great run rattling off 4 titles in 9 years and staying in contention every season.

lefty
06-22-2009, 08:37 PM
We already knew all that :wtf

Russ
06-22-2009, 08:53 PM
There's an easy answer to all of this:

Your team is old and on its last legs.

All good things must come to an end,

Kobe Bryant to Mitch Kupchak circa Summer '07.

ducks
06-22-2009, 09:42 PM
If Ginobili and Duncan are done, Spurs are done and what the FO do is meaningless.

not if they trade both for superstars

urunobili
06-22-2009, 09:44 PM
god finally a decent thread... :tu

timvp
06-22-2009, 11:26 PM
Timvp, let me ask you this, you think there might be any truth to what some of the posters
are saying as to the spurs possibly moving up in the draft?I'm sure they will do their due diligence but with Pop not trading up once in a draft in 15 years, it's difficult to believe that this will suddenly be the year. Plus most teams want cash for picks and it's doubtful Holt would hand over $3 million.


Or would it be wise to use the draft to move some dead weight on draft night?(Bonner, Oberto, Finely)A draft day trade definitely makes sense since Oberto's contract is expiring but my guess is that they'd trade for an actual NBA player before they trade for a draft pick.

timvp
06-22-2009, 11:29 PM
As I recall, Bonner disappeared the moment Gooden came on board. I haven't been able to explain why. Maybe his confidence got raddled or something. After the Gooden signing, Bonner started missing those shots he usually made.

True. That probably expedited the "choke" but there's no way he was going to hold up to the pressure in any scenario.

ElNono
06-22-2009, 11:36 PM
Mostly spot on, just a few comments about a couple of the points:
- Even if it was Finley's best season as a Spur, we all knew he simply wasn't better than Bowen. I still remember watching Durant in the last few games of the reg season tearing Mike a new asshole. This is one thing we ALL saw coming, but somehow Pop still decided to go his way.
- Matt Bonner had his last 'great' game in January. After that the fans here were divided into the Bonner-haters and the Bonner-apologists. By March, everybody was lighting up a candle to Gooden, including the coaching staff. Yet, Bonner kept on playing... And I disagree his defense was anything other than mediocre. I think his flop on Dampier on the Dallas series summed up the big black hole that guy was in the paint.
- The perceived lack of interest from Pop by the time the playoffs came around was heart breaking. Game 3 against Dallas has to be up there with the worst display of disinterest from a coaching staff for a playoff game. That one game really hurt. I thought it resumed pretty well what the end of the season was like from a coaching standpoint: stick with my stubborn plan until we flame out. And flame out we did.

A forgettable season in many respects to me. What worries me most going into next season is not really Manu, but Timmy. More specifically, how is the team going to address the marked lack of help Tim is getting night in and out. His problem can be chronic, and he WILL require more monitored minutes during the season. But with the west being what it is nowadays, we have nobody else to hold the fort for us right now. So I'm really intrigued to see how the FO is going to tackle that specific issue.

Cant_Be_Faded
06-22-2009, 11:37 PM
Matt Bonner was Pop playing what he was delt. Had the front office known Oberto would have zero gas left, and Mahinmi would injure his ankle for 15 months in a row, i guarantee you we sign another big man some way, earlier.... which is why you saw us go after Gooden when he became available.

I just hope Mahinmi isn't a total abortion, if the guy can jump (and is not a wuss) he will already improve our front court dramatically, beyond that we need length and athleticism. ASAP.

ElNono
06-22-2009, 11:40 PM
Matt Bonner was Pop playing what he was delt. Had the front office known Oberto would have zero gas left, and Mahinmi would injure his ankle for 15 months in a row, i guarantee you we sign another big man some way, earlier.... which is why you saw us go after Gooden when he became available.

I just hope Mahinmi isn't a total abortion, if the guy can jump (and is not a wuss) he will already improve our front court dramatically, beyond that we need length and athleticism. ASAP.

We also need defense from him. I obviously don't expect him to be Duncan-level of defense, but he needs to be at the very least an improvement over Bonner.

Cant_Be_Faded
06-22-2009, 11:43 PM
We also need defense from him. I obviously don't expect him to be Duncan-level of defense, but he needs to be at the very least an improvement over Bonner.

Spurs don't play defense anymore.

timtonymanu
06-22-2009, 11:44 PM
yeah the season was bad from the start. Manu was out. Ian was out. Tony missed a few games. Tim wasn't 100% by the playoffs. The Spurs didn't have their turnaround at all this year. They were inconsistent. As shown in threads and posts throughout the year, we saw "The Spurs will take 09" and "The Spurs suck." It could be that the fans were bipolar but the Spurs showed that one night they could light it up and other nights they look like a crap team. The Spurs luckily got out of losses thanks to Mason and Parker buzzer beaters.
Once the playoffs came around, the scoring only came from Tim and Tony. It's sad to know the next best player in the playoffs was a rookie who lost playing time prior to the playoffs. I really wonder if number 5 will come in the Duncan era with the way things are now. If it doesn't then i'm thankful for the four titles and I'll be a fan for life even after the Duncan era.

Thomas82
06-23-2009, 12:01 AM
very well written!

+1

HarlemHeat37
06-23-2009, 12:05 AM
as I said in the other threads, our next season will depend on health, 1 or 2 significant moves, and some luck..

health being Duncan and Ginobili..

1 or 2 significant moves being for a starting big man(Gooden or Villanueva?) and a bench role player..

luck being rolling the dice on Ian, Hairston/Williams, Gist or a draft pick and hoping 2 of them can be good enough to make the rotation next year..

system is still elite, just need some youth/talent to compliment the big 3..

Capt Bringdown
06-23-2009, 12:22 AM
To understand last year, you've got to look at the blunders made after the last championship.

The Scola trade was a distinct turning point. Fanboys may equivocate, but history will not be kind.

Yuixafun
06-23-2009, 02:05 AM
all this was pretty much obvious.

hey now, this is 7 weeks worth of introspection!

mountainballer
06-23-2009, 04:38 AM
wow, great piece of work!

a few thoughts:

I wouldn't rank Pop's try to play Mason at the point as a coaching mistake in the first place. I think it was a try for a damage control. RM was running out of gas in the middle of the season, not a persistent athlete to begin with, he also had to compensate for the loss of Manu at the begin of the season. Mason had to play 30+ minutes and had to defend the starter SGs from other teams, usually guys much more athletic than him. that depleted him. I think Pop tried to find a new role for him, one that was less exhausting. didn't work as we know. still worth the try IMO.
the question is: what role is Mason able to cover next season.
(in the best case Manu is back totally healthy and plays his usual 30 minutes and RM takes what is left at SG and a few in other line ups, likely small lineup alongside Manu, so his minutes are limited to about 20.)

lack of talent: that's probably the dark spot in the decisions of Pop and RC of the last years. limited money, late picks etc. are of course a big reason, but there are still some questions remaining. from whatever perspective we look at it, many decisions of the last years don't look good. and it can't always be blamed on the others to be responsible. the lack of talent is the result of a lot of misjudgement.
however, even the failed tries from the last months give hope, that it could have went into the right direction, because at least the ideas looked right. like trading for Salmons. (probably they should have tried harder and added some more teasers). or Mike Miller. or for Camby. or sign Maggette. (no matter what people say today. if he had signed for the MLE last year, our season would have looked better). even the plan to sign Bouroussis wasn't a bad idea IMO. (luckily also the not so good ideas failed. like signing Najera or Giricek)
so let's hope there is still the willingness for a significant move this summer, to at least get a quality role player.

Dr. Gonzo
06-23-2009, 08:52 AM
I like timvp.

BigVee
06-23-2009, 09:10 AM
Great recap. The lack of the second playmaker (Manu) had a real impact on guys like Bonner who cannot get their own shot. It is not as simple as that but that was a big part of it. The Spurs never had a chance to settle in to what they wanted to do all year. However, I really enjoyed the heart, hustle and desire they displayed through it all. The final game with NO was amazing as they played their guts out without regard to seeding and what winning or losing meant. And when they played without #21 and #20 and beat up Dallas....wow how great was that? Tony was fantastic...I am really looking forward to next year with great optimism. GSG!!!

diego
06-23-2009, 09:17 AM
Could a team win a championship that relied on Bonner and Finley to play major roles? I just don't think so. For the Spurs to win a fifth championship, I believe that an increase in talent level is needed. There doesn't have to be sweeping changes but spots 4 through 12 on the roster need a bit of tweaking.
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I realize that these players are slightly better, but walton and fisher played similar minutes to bonner and finley for the lakers. I think a lot of people discount how much pressure a healthy big 3 takes off the rest, but in terms of talent bonner and finley are not as bad as people make them sound (and I frequently criticize bonner!)

I think its more a matter of how the roster is constructed. too many old 3pt shooters, not enough athletic defense. the lakers bench complemented their stars and each other well. Ours was littered with redundancy, and to top it off they didnt know what their roles were and played with no motivation. Does anyone else think bowen, hill, mason, thomas, and to a lesser extent oberto finley and bonner can't be useful ROLEPLAYERS? I think a lot of it falls on pop, for not handling the situation better, either by improving the roster or getting the best out of what he had.

urunobili
06-23-2009, 09:22 AM
Great recap. The lack of the second playmaker (Manu) had a real impact on guys like Bonner who cannot get their own shot. It is not as simple as that but that was a big part of it. The Spurs never had a chance to settle in to what they wanted to do all year. However, I really enjoyed the heart, hustle and desire they displayed through it all. The final game with NO was amazing as they played their guts out without regard to seeding and what winning or losing meant. And when they played without #21 and #20 and beat up Dallas....wow how great was that? Tony was fantastic...I am really looking forward to next year with great optimism. GSG!!!

awesome post! :toast

bigfan
06-23-2009, 09:23 AM
Outstanding assessment TIMVP and I agree with you on damn near everything but two issues I didnt see you address were the Oberto situation and Splitter splitting. Ive always believed Fabricio is a servicable center, not a great one but ok, but I think the heart issue is a big problem for the guy. No coach wants to chew ass on a player to player harder on the court then have him drop dead like Pistol Pete or whoever. Re Splitter, this is one where the front office should have known the guys plans before they wasted a pick on him (and counting on him to show up). Im looking forward to your comments on the upcoming season, keep up the good work!

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-23-2009, 10:26 AM
I agree with most of it, good stuff. Looking forward to the future.

IMO, the most important thing you noted was this: Even if fully healthy, the Spurs were not winning a title. All of the other stuff is trivial really (Injuries, coaching mistakes...). I think every fan, although hard to admit, knew this.

I think the coaches knew this and so did Tim, TP and Manu. So all of the other problems do not matter (injuries do obviously) relatively speaking. The Spurs need major upgrades to close the wide gap between them and the Lakers.

Who knows if it is possible within the Spurs system? But healthy or not, the Spurs cannot win unless they upgrade significantly.

If they knew they weren't going to win, it made no sense to give Finley the run he was given, or give up on guys like Hill and Hairston.

Call a spade a spade - Pop had his worst coaching job in a good 6-7 years last season.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-23-2009, 10:27 AM
not if they trade both for superstars

Lol, ducks advocating trading Tim and Manu, yet keeping Parker. I'm shocked.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Matt Bonner was Pop playing what he was delt. Had the front office known Oberto would have zero gas left, and Mahinmi would injure his ankle for 15 months in a row, i guarantee you we sign another big man some way, earlier.... which is why you saw us go after Gooden when he became available.

I just hope Mahinmi isn't a total abortion, if the guy can jump (and is not a wuss) he will already improve our front court dramatically, beyond that we need length and athleticism. ASAP.

We had Gooden, Pop still rode the Red Rocket into the off-season.

DPG21920
06-23-2009, 10:29 AM
If they knew they weren't going to win, it made no sense to give Finley the run he was given, or give up on guys like Hill and Hairston.

Call a spade a spade - Pop had his worst coaching job in a good 6-7 years last season.

We all acknowledged Pop had a terrible year (except EricPark). The point is that even if he had his best year, the Spurs do not win.

He should have gone with Hill, especially given the circumstances, but it was one of Pop's admitted mistakes.

lurker23
06-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Good post timvp. I'm glad that you put injuries first; as much work as this roster may need, anyone who says injuries weren't the #1 contributing factor to the Spurs first round exit needs to go back and look at playoff video of a healthy Manu Ginobili and Tim Duncan.

One thing that was striking to me toward the end of the year was the poor defense the Spurs were playing. I think your comments about George Hill and Bruce Bowen were a factor in this, although I think you also have to consider the important role of chemistry. The only time the Spurs were stable throughout the year was early on when Manu and Tony were out; the team showed true Spurs resolve, chemistry, and defense. From that point onward, there always seemed to be pieces being pulled in and out of the system, and no consistency or chemistry could form; this lasted all the way through the first round. Some of this can be blamed on injuries, and some can be blamed on Pop. Nevertheless, I look forward to the refreshing possibility of having the same lineup in for 20 straight games next year.

Back in late January, you and I had the following exchange regarding Matt Bonner:



Matt Bonner is looking more and more like a legitimate NBA starter. Against the Blazers, I was pleased with the level of tenacity he illustrated on the defensive end. At times he’d make a mistake or find himself out of position but instead of giving in, Bonner fought through it and ultimately turned in a very good defensive performance. He pestered Aldridge and also pulled down nine rebounds – many of which were highly contested. On offense, Bonner played under control and knocked down a number of key buckets.



-I'm so happy for Matt Bonner. Before the year I said a lot of things like "Bonner is a legitimate NBA player" and that he could be a "solid contributor" if given the proper minutes. However, I'd probably be stretching the truth a bit if I said I expected him to be a legitimate starting big man on a championship-contending team. I just hope he can keep it up in the playoffs.


Great call. I remember you being one of the few who insisted during the summer that Bonner's best was yet to come. I honestly thought that he'd never gain Pop's trust. Thankfully Bonner has played well and Pop has gone the extra mile to give Bonner every opportunity to succeed in the last few months.

In retrospect, I think we were deluding ourselves a bit. Any good role player can look like a legitimate starter for periods of time, but in the end they are role players for a reason. Whether that reason be stamina, consistency, clutchness, or cajones, they eventually show you why they are just role players. As big a Matt Bonner fan as I am, I think we saw in this past season that Bonner is a good role player, but, at least in this point in his development, is not a legitimate starter, particularly on a playoff team in prime time situations.

wildbill2u
06-23-2009, 10:40 AM
"The perceived lack of interest from Pop by the time the playoffs came around was heart breaking. Game 3 against Dallas has to be up there with the worst display of disinterest from a coaching staff for a playoff game. That one game really hurt. I thought it resumed pretty well what the end of the season was like from a coaching standpoint: stick with my stubborn plan until we flame out. And flame out we did."

I kinda tthought the same thing at the time: Pop isn't into this game. Is he throwing it? Then I thought about it.

Maybe Pop was showing someone in the FO or the owner that the team needed to be revived by a big roster shakeup and more money spent. We simply haven't kept up with the rest of the league in the roster from spots 4-12.

lotr1trekkie
06-23-2009, 10:43 AM
It's such a bitch to be a Spurs fan! Kudos to TIMVP for laying out the problems of last season. However the mistakes started with trading Scola's rights before Splitter was signed. Then Mahimni's ankle! Then Manu's ankles! The botton line for every team in the West is----HOW DO YOU IMPROVE ENOUGH TO GET PAST THE LAKERS? If the Spurs can't they should stick to the 2010 plan. Thomas, Vaughn, Ime, Bonner, Oberto & Finley are all one demensional players and expendable. When any of the BIG 3 were inoperative, last year's bench was inadequate to make up the difference. End of story.

SenorSpur
06-23-2009, 11:27 AM
Glad the time off helped recharge the batteries. Excellent write up. :toast

Of the 3 main concerns outlined, there are 2 that concern me most. In fact, it's the 2 areas that CAN be positively affected: Coaching Mistakes and Lack of Talent.

The coaching mistakes were the most puzzling because Pop's forte has always been solid execution at both ends of the floor, maximizing the talent he has and putting his team in the best possible positions to succeed. He failed miserably with both the Mason backup PG experiment and the unexplained and unnecessary banisment of Hill. Also, it should be mentioned that Pop failed to cultivate anything from the end of his bench, during this lost season. With Manu's injury ending any chances for a sustained playoff run, there was a golden opportunity presented to get longer looks at Gooden, Hill, Hairston and Williams. Utilizing Bowen over Finley was a given. In my opinion, there was nothing to be gained from Pop's stubborn decision to overplay unproductive veterans.

The lack of talent was all too obvious - even before the awful drubbing at the hands of the Mavericks in the first round of the playoffs. Injuries not withstanding, how the FO could've deluded themselves into thinking this bunch could compete with the Fakers, is beyond me. The 2008 WCF series loss to the Fakers was indictment enough to warrant the type of quasi roster overhaul that we're expecting this summer. In my opinion, there was nothing to be gained from not having upgraded the talent level more so than they did, last summer.

Yuixafun
06-23-2009, 12:01 PM
wow, great piece of work!

a few thoughts:

I wouldn't rank Pop's try to play Mason at the point as a coaching mistake in the first place. I think it was a try for a damage control. RM was running out of gas in the middle of the season, not a persistent athlete to begin with, he also had to compensate for the loss of Manu at the begin of the season. Mason had to play 30+ minutes and had to defend the starter SGs from other teams, usually guys much more athletic than him. that depleted him. I think Pop tried to find a new role for him, one that was less exhausting. didn't work as we know. still worth the try IMO.
the question is: what role is Mason able to cover next season.
(in the best case Manu is back totally healthy and plays his usual 30 minutes and RM takes what is left at SG and a few in other line ups, likely small lineup alongside Manu, so his minutes are limited to about 20.)

lack of talent: that's probably the dark spot in the decisions of Pop and RC of the last years. limited money, late picks etc. are of course a big reason, but there are still some questions remaining. from whatever perspective we look at it, many decisions of the last years don't look good. and it can't always be blamed on the others to be responsible. the lack of talent is the result of a lot of misjudgement.
however, even the failed tries from the last months give hope, that it could have went into the right direction, because at least the ideas looked right. like trading for Salmons. (probably they should have tried harder and added some more teasers). or Mike Miller. or for Camby. or sign Maggette. (no matter what people say today. if he had signed for the MLE last year, our season would have looked better). even the plan to sign Bouroussis wasn't a bad idea IMO. (luckily also the not so good ideas failed. like signing Najera or Giricek)
so let's hope there is still the willingness for a significant move this summer, to at least get a quality role player.


Excellent post. That's the way I saw it go down with Mason too, but your words added clarity.

Glad to see some people are willing to dig deeper and use their own intelligence, when it's easy to just say Pop "DESTROYED Mason's confidence! He sucks!" and other hot potato phrases attempting to be passed off as knowledge.

The status of Ginobili had to play a part in the vacillation of the FO on making a strong move in one direction when there were several gaps to address.

Having a healthy hungry Manu will be a revelation.

The most frustrating aspect of this season for me was the lack of execution, the mental mistakes, especially so late. It's tough enough to win against an opponent, but when you battle yourself too?
I never heard Duncan say "it was a mental mistake on my part" as many times as he did during this season. Hard to fault him though with the amount of pain he was playing through. The team on a whole just failed to convert on those little plays that wins games.

The season wasn't a total wash. Hopefully it adds a little more fire to our boys belly that was lacking. Pop had an opportunity to try some different looks, strategies even if they didn't work out. Now he knows. And we learned Hill is a playoff guy. I love what I heard from his interview after the Spurs were eliminated. He gets it.

slayermin
06-23-2009, 01:11 PM
Nice post.

I still like the Red Rocket. He isn't clutch but true clutch players are rare. He is a viable option against certain teams and in that respect, he's an asset. He shot 44% from three last season. Hedo wasn't considered clutch either but look what he did this year with the Magic. I do know he's gonna give you everything he's got. I saw improvement in him from the previous year.

George Hill in the playoffs showed he isn't scared. I want to temper my expectations for him but it's hard to expect big things.

Man, I hope Manu comes back healthy.

timvp
06-23-2009, 01:54 PM
Thank you Pop for letting me come back from my vacation before making the trade :tu

Mel_13
06-23-2009, 01:58 PM
In the coming 48 hours, I hope to outline my beliefs of what the Spurs should do during this offseason to return to the top.



This job just got much easier!

timvp
06-23-2009, 02:00 PM
This job just got much easier!

:lol I was almost done with the next thread. 1200 words down the drain.

Mr.Bottomtooth
06-23-2009, 02:08 PM
:lol