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Clutch City 01
06-23-2009, 06:03 PM
The great, veteran NBA writer Charlie Rosen takes aim at the question: who was better, Phil or Red?

Like the endless debate about who is the GOAT, it will never of course be truely answered and can't be, but is fun to talk about. In the end both were great coaches and the very, very best of their time.

Here is a very good, well thought out piece for those who want to delve into this debate and conjecture once more. it is good reading for those interested in the subject:


There are several records that have been established in pro sports that will never be surpassed. In baseball, for example, Cy Young's 511 career wins (1890-1911) and Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak (1941). In basketball, there's Wilt Chamberlain's points-per-game average of 50.4 over the course of the 1961-62 season.


And the NBA's latest unbreakable mark is Phil Jackson coaching his way to 10 championships.
With P.J. finally pulling ahead of Red Auerbach's nine titles, a comparison between these two great coaches is only natural. So here goes:
First off, it has to be noted that Jackson and Auerbach coached in vastly different circumstances.
Auerbach's first title came with the Celtics in 1957 when the NBA had only eight teams — and that number increased only to nine for the duration of his championship run.
Jackson's initial championship came in 1991 when the NBA had 27 teams — and they currently have 30.
All of which means that the odds against winning a title were much greater in P.J.'s era due to the increased competition, as well as the additional playoff rounds.





Also, because the reserve clause in players' contracts prohibited free agency, rosters were much more stable in Auerbach's halycon days. Obviously, this led to more season-to-season continuity and familiarity between the players as well as the players and their coaches. It could be said that the one basic reason for Auerbach's long reign atop the league was that Bill Russell perpetually manned the center position.
If Jackson's title-winning teams weren't hugely affected by free agents either coming or going, he has won his titles with various bigs in the middle — Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Shaq and the current tandem of Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol.
In other words, P.J. was forced to continually tinker with his game plan, while for Auerbach it was always business as usual.
The relationship between the referees and the coaches has also drastically altered through the years. It used to be Standard Operating Procedure for coaches to loudly and viciously curse and threaten refs with violence during games, with Auerbach universally conceded to be the worst offender. During Auerbach's early days on the bench technical fouls cost a coach a mere $25. So when an enraged Auerbach would storm into the officials' locker room after a loss and rudely challenge Sid Borgia to fisticuffs, he was only fined $25.
Compare this to the $25,000 penalty Jackson has to pay for questioning the authenticity of referees' calls during an in-game interview.
Moreover, in Auerbach's era the league considered refs to be little more than disposable hirelings, who were paid around $60 per game. Since no security guards were assigned to protect them from irate fans, refs routinely had to take off their belts and swing them so that the flashing buckles would discourage the frenzied courtside multitudes from physically attacking them as they sprinted to their postgame locker rooms. Jackson, of course, must show much more restraint in his attempts to intimidate refs — which is precisely why he's forced to use the media to give voice to his complaints.


The ability of a coach to motivate his players has also evolved since Auerbach sat in the command seat. Back then, no-cut contracts were extremely rare, and player salaries were very low. Bill Russell's initial contract with the Celtics was for only $20,000. Because most players of that era were forced to get summer jobs if their teams failed to win championships, Auerbach could easily motivate them with reminders of dire offseason catastrophes.
But since even the last man on the bench in today's game earns close to $1 million, such strong-arm motivations would be useless. And understanding that the modern players can only motivate themselves, Jackson's leadership has to be much more subtle.
Jackson's critics have claimed that he simply rode to glory on the backs of such extraordinary players as Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq and Kobe. In truth, every championship team in the modern-day history of the league has featured extraordinary players. And the above quartet labored in the NBA for a combined total of 18 years without even sniffing a championship — until Jackson showed them all how to be winners.
Also, a count of current, future and possible Hall-of-Famers is significant. Playing for P.J.'s 10 championship squads were only three guaranteed honorees — Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe — plus Pippen, whose admittance would be a long shot.
The list of Auerbach's Hall-of-Famers contains several players who didn't play major roles — Arnie Risen, Andy Phillip and Clyde Lovellette. But Auerbach's roster of mainstay players enshrined in Springfield includes Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Frank Ramsey, John Havlicek, Tommy Heinsohn, K.C. and Sam Jones. Several of Auerbach's ball clubs actually featured five eventual HOFers in the starting lineup. On a more technical level, the advancements in technology and the increase in the number of assistant coaches (Auerbach had none) have made both scouting and game preparation more sophisticated. The same can be said of between- and in-game adjustments.


All of these factors, of course, were beyond Auerbach's ken. But they do make modern-day coaching a more complicated undertaking.
Auerbach was never an outstanding Xs and Os technician. Instead, his biggest strength was to recognize players who could fit into his up-tempo system. Indeed, he was the first to fully appreciate the full value of such defensive-oriented players as Russell, K.C. Jones, and Satch Sanders. And the key to all of Auerbach's championships was his brilliant utilization of Russell's unique talents to revolutionize the game. Before Russell, blocked shots were accidents. After Russell, shot blocking became an art.
The fact that Auerbach functioned as both coach and general manager enabled him to assemble his rosters to suit his own designs. But if Jackson is a superior Xs and Os coach, to a significant degree he has had to coach the players that are collected by his GM of the moment. This was particularly the case under Jerry Krause in Chicago. That's why P.J. has been stuck with several players who simply couldn't fit into his geometric game plan — the likes of Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Darrell Walker, Travis Knight, Randy Brown and Glen Rice.
Critics have also complained that Jackson, unlike Auerbach, never built a championship team from scratch. This is true, but only because Jackson is a finisher, not a starter. Also, with 20-plus teams in the mix, rising from the bottom to the top is a monumental task that can no longer be accomplished during the career of a single coach.
So, then, who was the better coach, Jackson or Auerbach?
In truth, this is a meaningless question. Each was best suited to succeed in the contemporary NBA culture that prevailed during their respective careers, which means only that each was the best in his own generation. The accomplishments of both Jackson and Auerbach should therefore be celebrated and cherished on an equal basis.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9690024/Phil-vs.-Red:-Who's-the-NBA's-best-coach-ever?

VivaPopovich
06-23-2009, 06:11 PM
Phil was the best macro-manager of complex personalities, probably in the history of sports.

Red Auerbach was the best general manager in the history of sports. when you count up all the titles auerbach won as coach then as general manager thats 16 titles. http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-heisler-red-auerbach17-2009jun17,0,1644242.column

Coach/President Popovich has a long way to go ;-)

JamStone
06-23-2009, 06:16 PM
Larry Brown has an argument as far as best "coach" ever is concerned.

VivaPopovich
06-23-2009, 06:21 PM
Larry Brown has an argument as far as best "coach" ever is concerned.

Larry Browng coaching Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun, Rasheed, Ben was a great situation for the city of Detroit. Dumars should have just put up with the crap and let it go. The players didnt have a problem with Coach Brown so what else matters.

It was a shame to see that team dismantled. They could have won 3 titles together.

IronMexican
06-23-2009, 06:24 PM
Coch - Larry Brown

Pre-game manager - Phil

mytespurs
06-23-2009, 06:31 PM
I'll be the party pooop because I believe there is no such thing as "best ever". My view is that whenever someone is annointed "best ever", it seems to downgrade the great ones who've come before and will come after.

Phil Jackson will probably go down as the "greatest ever" because of the number of titles he has won. He's one of the best in my book.

xellos88330
06-24-2009, 12:31 AM
I choose... "C". POPOVICH!!! :stirpot:

lefty
06-24-2009, 12:34 AM
Stan Van Gundy

His stroke of genius allowed KFC to win his 10th title









Ugh - Jameer - Ugh

baseline bum
06-24-2009, 12:53 AM
I'd take Phil over Red any day. That Lakers team that 3-peated had awful chemistry at times; I don't know how he kept them together with Shaq's crybaby antics and Kobe's arrogance. It's a good thing for them that they didn't bring Rice back, as he might have been enough to tear that team apart.

21_Blessings
06-24-2009, 01:06 AM
Larry Brown has an argument as far as best "coach" ever is concerned.

He sure did well with that Ariza kid. Calling him"Delusional." Yeah that's how you get through to players.

Also funny how Phil made Shannon Brown into a serviceable player.

If it wasn't for Malone getting hurt Larry Brown has no ring.

DrHouse
06-24-2009, 01:18 AM
Phil Jackson - 10 rings

>

Red - 9 rings

/thread

IronMexican
06-24-2009, 01:58 AM
The both of you were calling Phil this time a month ago.

Obstructed_View
06-24-2009, 02:07 AM
Both of them won with cherry picked talent. Phil managed to win with Kobe, so Phil > Red.

KSeal
06-24-2009, 02:12 AM
Phil managed to win with Kobe, so Phil > Red.

It's very tough to win with the second best player in the league on your team.

baseline bum
06-24-2009, 02:12 AM
He sure did well with that Ariza kid. Calling him"Delusional." Yeah that's how you get through to players.

Also funny how Phil made Shannon Brown into a serviceable player.

If it wasn't for Malone getting hurt Larry Brown has no ring.

Bullshit. Detroit went into your building and smacked the shit out of the Lakers in game 1 with Malone healthy and putting in his usual Finals chokejob. Shaq's the only Laker who bothered to show up that Finals, and no way LA was going to win with that kind of effort against one of the all-time great defensive teams in the 04 Pistons. The Lakers couldn't touch their depth either.

21_Blessings
06-24-2009, 02:31 AM
Bullshit. Detroit went into your building and smacked the shit out of the Lakers in game 1 with Malone healthy

Malone wasn't healthy retard. He was hobbling around the entire game on a broken wheel.


and putting in his usual Finals chokejob. Shaq's the only Laker who bothered to show up that Finals,

Not on the defensive end he didn't. The entire Detroit Pistons offensive gameplan was to torch Shaq on the pick and roll. It worked.


and no way LA was going to win with that kind of effort against one of the all-time great defensive teams in the 04 Pistons. The Lakers couldn't touch their depth either.

Please. Healthy Malone changes everything. Slava Medvedenko and a rookie Luke Walton getting heavy minutes? Haha, yeah. Keep dreaming.

21_Blessings
06-24-2009, 02:35 AM
And if you want to talk about choke jobs let's talk about a Tim Duncan leading a 3 seeded spurs to a 1st round exit against a pathetic 6 seeded Dallas Mavericks team. Lmao.

JamStone
06-24-2009, 04:28 AM
He sure did well with that Ariza kid. Calling him"Delusional." Yeah that's how you get through to players.

Also funny how Phil made Shannon Brown into a serviceable player.

If it wasn't for Malone getting hurt Larry Brown has no ring.


You can criticize him as a talent evaluator but not as a coach.

Shaq and Kobe in their primes, Gary Payton, and a less than 100% Karl Malone should still beat Billups, Hamilton, and the Wallaces. They didn't. As many have already suggested here, Phil has done well managing egos. As a "coach" I think he's still good but there have been better.

lefty
06-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Phil Jackson - 10 rings

>

Red - 9 rings

/thread


Auerbach won his 9 titles with the same franchise, which is harder to do considering that the team went several changes during his tenure.

Jackson won 6 titles with Jordan and Pippen, then moved to L.A to coach young Shaq and Kobe. That's much more easier
Silver platter anyone ?

Therefore, Red >>>>>>>>>>>>>> KFC


/Thread

dirk4mvp
06-24-2009, 11:09 AM
Avery Johnson. I bet Phil never thought of the genius idea to start Devin George at C.

DrHouse
06-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Nope.

10 > 9. Phil > Red.

Winning with 4 different casts > winning with the same team.

Phil > Red >>>>>>>>>>>> Pop.

lefty
06-24-2009, 11:21 AM
Nope.

10 > 9. Phil > Red.

Winning with 4 different casts > winning with the same team.

Phil > Red >>>>>>>>>>>> Pop.


It's amazing you are still alive considering your stupidity

ambchang
06-24-2009, 12:09 PM
Chuck Daly.

Obstructed_View
06-24-2009, 12:28 PM
It's very tough to win with the second best player in the league on your team.

Yep, all that talent and he can't win unless you surround him with the deepest team in the league and the best coach of all time.

Bukefal
06-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Pop is

tlongII
06-24-2009, 12:45 PM
I have to give it to Phil. Ten rings.

baseline bum
06-24-2009, 12:54 PM
Malone wasn't healthy retard. He was hobbling around the entire game on a broken wheel.


Bullshit. He hurt his MCL in game 2, you fucking douchebag.



Please. Healthy Malone changes everything. Slava Medvedenko and a rookie Luke Walton getting heavy minutes? Haha, yeah. Keep dreaming.


Wow; Mevedenko played a whole 14.4 minutes per game that series. Walton 15.4. Heavy minutes my ass. :lmao

A healthy Malone changes everything? Give me a fucking break. You were one shot from being swept. Your team got curbstomped. There were two games in that series that were even competitive, and the full game he was healthy wasn't one of them. The games looked pretty much the same whether Malone could go or he couldn't. You got murdered by a far superior team. Deal with it.


And if you want to talk about choke jobs let's talk about a Tim Duncan leading a 3 seeded spurs to a 1st round exit against a pathetic 6 seeded Dallas Mavericks team. Lmao.

What does that have to do with Malone and the 2004 Lakers minus Shaq being Finals chokers?