To Peter Burns

[MaNu4Tres]

Can you please stop saying the addition of Richard Jefferson means Manu's money is gone in 2010. Spurs have 47 million committed to 2010, not to mention Spurs have Manu's bird rights. Manu can still be offered 8 million and Spurs will still be below the cap and still have room to add pieces. Another thing, Richard Jefferson's contract ends in 2011, meaning if Manu were to sign a two-three year deal at the end of this year, Spurs will then have Jefferson's 15 million to work with in 2011. Please stop saying adding Jefferson means there's no room for Manu to be paid. Your wrong. I'm sure Pop and R.C thought about this before the trade went down and I highly highly doubt if your reasoning was the case, that R.C and Pop would choose Richard Jefferson over Manu. C'mon Burns be smarter than that.

[PeterBurns]

Manu4tres. If he wants the same $ yes it does. If Manu comes back healthy like he says and is 100%, do you think he will want to take a pay cut in a year that lot of teams are freeing up money to land free agents?

He's a marquee name, and can still be had on the "cheap" compared to a Jermaine O Neal type $23m or Tracy McGrady Stupid deal.

Best case scenario, Spurs keep Manu is a reserve role off the bench, both keep him fresh as an X factor, and keeping his stats lower than normal in order to keep his price at $8 mil or below.

Spurs are paying the luxury tax this year, because they are finding a themselves at a crossroads. With complacent fans and sponsorships, they need to get the $ and take advantage of 1 or 2 finals runs while they can instead of plodding along.

I hope Manu stays a Spur, but it always clears the picture for Manu and his agent to develop a strategy going forward. I hope that he stays here.

But if you are Houston, and you offer him some of McGrady's $ that will be free next year to have Manu play with Scola why not? He'll play for Houston if not Spurs.

Houston Offers Manu $12 Mil/yr for 2 years. $24 Mil
Spurs offer Manu $8m/yr for 2 years. $16m

$8mil is a lot of $ to decide on loyalty.

[DPG21920]

Yes, but the Spurs have the ability to match that offer from Houston. They are not only able to offer him just 8M. They might start there, but they can match any offer. Will they? That is another question depending on how things go with this year and his health and the teams success.

If they are willing to invest now in winning by paying the luxury tax (assuming Manu is healthy), then you would have to assume they will do it again to keep Manu, especially if it means just one year in the luxury tax. Once Jefferson's deal comes of the books in 2011, it would ease the cap situation and give the Spurs relief.

If Manu is injured, the Spurs are not giving him an extension so the point is moot. Only thing that matters is if Manu is healthy or not. That has nothing to do with loyalty. If Manu is healthy, then the Spurs will pay fair market value for him. If some team is going to go crazy and spend tons of money on him, then you might have to let him go, but giving him a small raise if healthy and the team is winning such as you suggested (12M from Houston), is not a bad deal.

[polandprzem]

Manu might be healthier but not younger and he won't be better then he was

[MaNu4Tres]

Manu4tres. If he wants the same $ yes it does. If Manu comes back healthy like he says and is 100%, do you think he will want to take a pay cut in a year that lot of teams are freeing up money to land free agents?

He's a marquee name, and can still be had on the "cheap" compared to a Jermaine O Neal type $23m or Tracy McGrady Stupid deal.

Best case scenario, Spurs keep Manu is a reserve role off the bench, both keep him fresh as an X factor, and keeping his stats lower than normal in order to keep his price at $8 mil or below.

Spurs are paying the luxury tax this year, because they are finding a themselves at a crossroads. With complacent fans and sponsorships, they need to get the $ and take advantage of 1 or 2 finals runs while they can instead of plodding along.

I hope Manu stays a Spur, but it always clears the picture for Manu and his agent to develop a strategy going forward. I hope that he stays here.

But if you are Houston, and you offer him some of McGrady's $ that will be free next year to have Manu play with Scola why not? He'll play for Houston if not Spurs.

Houston Offers Manu $12 Mil/yr for 2 years. $24 Mil
Spurs offer Manu $8m/yr for 2 years. $16m

$8mil is a lot of $ to decide on loyalty.

Spurs will be fine even with offering Manu 12 million a year for 2 years. They have his bird rights also, which really helps because resigning him or even Mason or Bonner or anyone we sign this offseason, wouldn't effect the Mid Level Exception or the League Level Exception to add more pieces in 2010. Not to mention adding roster spots 12-15 with minimum deals.

Another reason Spurs could match an offer for 12 million for two years is because Richard Jefferson's contract is up in 2011. He will not command another contract like the one he got from New Jersey. Meaning Spurs will still be able to resign him for what he's really worth in the Summer of 2011 for 7-9 million. Meaning the only time Spurs would have to worry about the lux tax is this year and next year. And from R.C's interview all signs indicate that Holt gave R.C the go ahead to do so.

[coyotes_geek]

I think the Spurs end up signing Manu to an extension this offseason, one that includes some form of injury protection for the Spurs, and this debate all becomes moot.

[DPG21920]

Manu might be healthier but not younger and he won't be better then he was

So? That is not the point. If you are trying to put together a winner, you will pay him fair market value if healthy because he will still be effective as long as Tim and Tony are around.

The Spurs would sign an trade him before they just let him walk. If he is healthy enough for some team to offer him a ton of money in order to put him over the top, you better believe that that the Spurs will see he can still play at a high level, even if it is not his "prime".

Tim is no longer in his prime, would they not give him any amount he wanted if he was in a contract situation?

Not to mention how popular Gino is as a Spur and to the fans...

[DPG21920]

I think the Spurs end up signing Manu to an extension this offseason, one that includes some form of injury protection for the Spurs, and this debate all becomes moot.

Bingo.

[MaNu4Tres]

The trade for Richard Jefferson doesn't effect the extension of Manu. Manu's health is the bigger issue concerning a possible extension. Whether the bidding price is 8 million or 12 million for Manu in 2010.

[PeterBurns]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.

[DPG21920]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.

So why would Houston offer that?

Also, you are the only one bringing up 12M out of no where. Most of us are saying the Spurs will extend him for whatever fair market value is. We are not pulling numbers like 12M out of the air.

Go on record: Do you think the Spurs will extend Gino, regardless of what the number is right now because no one knows?

[PeterBurns]

I hope you are right and it's Tim, Tony, Manu, and RJ riding off into the sunset together.
But I just don't think it happens if Manu expects to make $10M+ after this year.

[MaNu4Tres]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.

As I just said, Manu's health is the biggest concern regarding an extension. And I don't agree with you on team's offering Manu 12 million at the age of 35. But if they did Spurs would have the ability to match if the scenario were to play out that way and he were healthy for all 82 games this year and the playoffs. The trade for Jefferson doesn't effect the extension of Manu whether its 8 million or 12 million. Manu's health is the biggest concern regarding his extension. IMO

[coyotes_geek]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.

So the Spurs won't offer that but Houston will? Make up your mind. Is Manu worth $12 mil a year, or isn't he?

[PeterBurns]

[QUOTE=DPG21920;3484909]So why would Houston offer that?
QUOTE]

I think Houston would overpay a bit just to A) Pair Manu with Scola B) Take Manu away from another Contender.

If Scola wasn't there, it's not even fodder. But if McGrady was making $20m+, Manu at $12m would look like a Kmart Blue light special.

[CGD]

I think the Spurs end up signing Manu to an extension this offseason, one that includes some form of injury protection for the Spurs, and this debate all becomes moot.

I think you're right. Plus, you have to believe that the best time to get a "good deal" on Manu is now if you are the Spurs.

At the very least if they don't extend him, Manu, like any player going into a "contract year", will have added incentive to play at the highest level (e.g., Odom and Ariza this past season). That will only bode well for the Spurs during the 2009-10 season.

[DPG21920]

[QUOTE=DPG21920;3484909]So why would Houston offer that?
QUOTE]

I think Houston would overpay a bit just to A) Pair Manu with Scola B) Take Manu away from another Contender.

If Scola wasn't there, it's not even fodder. But if McGrady was making $20m+, Manu at $12m would look like a Kmart Blue light special.

Not really. If Manu is clearly not worth 12M, then just because McGrady's contract sucks, does not mean you enter into another bad contract just because it sucks less.

That is bad business. Teams don't handcuff themselves just to screw another team, especially teams like Houston who are making moves (Artest, trading Alston) trying to legitimately win (they took the Lakers to 7 games).

[MaNu4Tres]

If Manu stays healthy all 82 games and the playoffs and performs like he did in 2005 then I'd say 12 million is about right for his last two years and Spurs would have the ability to resign him for that much. Being realistic, that scenario has a less than 5 % chance of happening.

IMO Manu stays relatively healthy this year and gives us 14 4 and 4 a game and his market value would be in the 8-10 million range going into the summer of 2010. Spurs would still have the ability to offer him 8-10 million for 2-3 years. Even with the Richard Jefferson trade.

[coyotes_geek]

[QUOTE=DPG21920;3484909]So why would Houston offer that?
QUOTE]

I think Houston would overpay a bit just to A) Pair Manu with Scola B) Take Manu away from another Contender.

If Scola wasn't there, it's not even fodder. But if McGrady was making $20m+, Manu at $12m would look like a Kmart Blue light special.

Ah the magical healing powers of Luis Scola makes Manu more valueable to the tune of an extra $4 mil a year. :lol

[PeterBurns]

So the Spurs won't offer that but Houston will? Make up your mind. Is Manu worth $12 mil a year, or isn't he?

I'm just making the point, I think the Spurs would be smart and take all factors into consideration (Including Ticket Sales/Merch...etc) before jumping at overpaying.

If Manu if offered an extension worth more than $8m a year going forward then that means we won the 2010 NBA Championship because he was healthy as hell!

Can you imagine this year if they are all healthy and a big man comes in to play a Nazr, Rasho role.

Before this trade. I would have put Spurs at 10-1 to win it all next year. With this trade, it's closer to 4-1. Once they find a solid big man to round out the rotation, it think it will move closer to 5-2. With Lakers being 3/2 assuming no big moves.

[DPG21920]

Spurs will more than likely evaluate 2 things up until the trade deadline and into next season:

1) Manu's health: How does he hold up? How does RJ help manage his minutes and how does Manu respond athletically and physically? If Manu is healthy they will extend him. If he is breaking down or is past the point of being effective, the Spurs will probably look to trade him at the deadline as an expiring contract.

2) How does RJ fit with this team? If RJ fits well and Manu is healthy, then the Spurs will keep the team together and pay for it. This has to be the plan or else they would not have taken RJ's contract knowing it would limit their moves in 2010.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs will more than likely evaluate 2 things up until the trade deadline and into next season:

1) Manu's health: How does he hold up? How does RJ help manage his minutes and how does Manu respond athletically and physically? If Manu is healthy they will extend him. If he is breaking down or is past the point of being effective, the Spurs will probably look to trade him at the deadline as an expiring contract.

2) How does RJ fit with this team? If RJ fits well and Manu is healthy, then the Spurs will keep the team together and pay for it. This has to be the plan or else they would not have taken RJ's contract knowing it would limit their moves in 2010.

Pretty much what I've said this whole thread but in different words.

+1

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm just making the point, I think the Spurs would be smart and take all factors into consideration (Including Ticket Sales/Merch...etc) before jumping at overpaying.

If Manu if offered an extension worth more than $8m a year going forward then that means we won the 2010 NBA Championship because he was healthy as hell!

Can you imagine this year if they are all healthy and a big man comes in to play a Nazr, Rasho role.

Before this trade. I would have put Spurs at 10-1 to win it all next year. With this trade, it's closer to 4-1. Once they find a solid big man to round out the rotation, it think it will move closer to 5-2. With Lakers being 3/2 assuming no big moves.

I think the Spurs next move after the draft is to look to trade Mason and Bonner for a quality big man like Camby for instance, who is due 7.6 million next year ( which is expiring). They would still have the MLE to address an extra big man and a wing if Finley declines his option if that scenario played out.

[DPG21920]

I think Camby is owed somewhere around 9-10M

[MaNu4Tres]

I think Camby is owed somewhere around 9-10M

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_clippers.htm

7.6million according to hoopshype. His contract was front-ended.

[coyotes_geek]

I'm just making the point, I think the Spurs would be smart and take all factors into consideration (Including Ticket Sales/Merch...etc) before jumping at overpaying.

If Manu if offered an extension worth more than $8m a year going forward then that means we won the 2010 NBA Championship because he was healthy as hell!

Can you imagine this year if they are all healthy and a big man comes in to play a Nazr, Rasho role.

Before this trade. I would have put Spurs at 10-1 to win it all next year. With this trade, it's closer to 4-1. Once they find a solid big man to round out the rotation, it think it will move closer to 5-2. With Lakers being 3/2 assuming no big moves.

The Spurs can't extend Manu in 2010 because he'll be a free agent. If they want to extend him it has to be done before October 31st, 2009. I doubt the Spurs want to have to bid on the open market for a healthy Manu, so I think they're going to try and give him that extension this year. One that is structured with limited guarantees based on how many games he plays in.

[rogcl1]

I think you're right. Plus, you have to believe that the best time to get a "good deal" on Manu is now if you are the Spurs.

At the very least if they don't extend him, Manu, like any player going into a "contract year", will have added incentive to play at the highest level (e.g., Odom and Ariza this past season). That will only bode well for the Spurs during the 2009-10 season.

No , Manu is not like any other player. This being a contract year has no bearing on how Manu will perform. The fire in Manu burns 100% every time he steps on the court. It is always full speed ahead. The Spurs will always get his best regardless of contract situation or whatever. Manu is one special player and anyone who doesn't recognize that is lost.Unless he is crippled , he will be back.

[PeterBurns]

Good question. My only issue would be is that the Spurs system is tough enough to work one new impact guy in a key role, much less 2 impact guys.

The Spurs "car" is not broken and needing an overhaul, just a tune-up.
I would like to see Brandon Bass as a Spur, if nothing more than just to piss Cuban off more.

RC should screw with Cuban even if not interested in Bass, float the idea that he's thinking about signing Bass to a deal worth $1.5, Cuban doesn't want Spurs to have him, overpays for Bass, and RC just snickers and goes..."Gotcha Mark"

[coyotes_geek]

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_clippers.htm

7.6million according to hoopshype. His contract was front-ended.

Hoopshype isn't reliable. Shamsports is better. Camby's salary for next year is $9.65.

[PeterBurns]

Good points by all.
Coyote Geek, I forgot about the timing of an extension and I'm glad you brought that up.

[MaNu4Tres]

Good question. My only issue would be is that the Spurs system is tough enough to work one new impact guy in a key role, much less 2 impact guys.

The Spurs "car" is not broken and needing an overhaul, just a tune-up.
I would like to see Brandon Bass as a Spur, if nothing more than just to piss Cuban off more.

RC should screw with Cuban even if not interested in Bass, float the idea that he's thinking about signing Bass to a deal worth $1.5, Cuban doesn't want Spurs to have him, overpays for Bass, and RC just snickers and goes..."Gotcha Mark"

I wouldn't mind Bass either, but Cuban has made it apparent that he's willing to spend this off-season. The most Spurs could offer is the MLE and I'm sure the Mavs ( in spending mode according to Cuban) would counter and match that offer to bring Bass back. A lot of fans want McDyess, I agree with what you said about McDyess Burns. McDyess stated he did not want to move his family from Detroit and even told Pop and R.C no thank-you whenever the Nuggets bought him out. That said McDyess has a less than 5 percent chance to come to San Antonio. IMO

[SenorSpur]

Good question. My only issue would be is that the Spurs system is tough enough to work one new impact guy in a key role, much less 2 impact guys.

The Spurs "car" is not broken and needing an overhaul, just a tune-up.
I would like to see Brandon Bass as a Spur, if nothing more than just to piss Cuban off more.

RC should screw with Cuban even if not interested in Bass, float the idea that he's thinking about signing Bass to a deal worth $1.5, Cuban doesn't want Spurs to have him, overpays for Bass, and RC just snickers and goes..."Gotcha Mark"

Excellent idea. I love it. Cuban is a smart businessman, but he's such a competitive jerk and an emotional nimrod that he would bite immediately. I just know that he's probably pissing in his pants at the thought of the Spurs getting RJ. He'll make a counter move soon.

[JudynTX]

Ah the magical healing powers of Luis Scola makes Manu more valueable to the tune of an extra $4 mil a year. :lol

Uh oh you said the L word. :lol:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

Good points by all.
Coyote Geek, I forgot about the timing of an extension and I'm glad you brought that up.

I didn't mean to sound rude and point out anything Burns. No hard feelings,love the show continue the good work. I listen to you and Andy weekly and I live in Houston. I just wanted to try to make you realize the trade for Jefferson doesn't mean Manu's money is gone that's all.

[Big P]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.

Where did you come up with the $12 mil #? He is going to make less than he is making now, so his contract would likely start at $7-8 mil per year? After watching RC's video yesterday, he made it sound like Manu will retire a Spur.

[coyotes_geek]

Meh. I'd rather see the Spurs just go out and get the PF/C they need (which Bass isn't) and then what the Mavs do or don't do is irrelevant.

[to21]

Neaux Tigers!!!

CWS Game 3:
Texas- 6 LSU- 3

[coyotes_geek]

Uh oh you said the L word. :lol:lol

:lol

I left the creedo back at "that other place".

[PeterBurns]

Manu4tres, thanks for the listening to the show, and you are always welcome to call in. Good stuff you countered with today, and it brings up some points that are good fodder for debate.

Good to know we were live and local this morning, while national shows glossed over the news, and talked about Manny in the Minors and Red Sox/Yanks baseball.

[to21]

Good question. My only issue would be is that the Spurs system is tough enough to work one new impact guy in a key role, much less 2 impact guys.

The Spurs "car" is not broken and needing an overhaul, just a tune-up.
I would like to see Brandon Bass as a Spur, if nothing more than just to piss Cuban off more.

RC should screw with Cuban even if not interested in Bass, float the idea that he's thinking about signing Bass to a deal worth $1.5, Cuban doesn't want Spurs to have him, overpays for Bass, and RC just snickers and goes..."Gotcha Mark"I've always liked Bass, he's a beast.

[JudynTX]

:lol

I left the creedo back at "that other place".

:lol Good times back then.

[MaNu4Tres]

Hoopshype isn't reliable. Shamsports is better. Camby's salary for next year is $9.65.

If Shamsports is right, then you could offer Mason + Bonner + Marcus Williams for Camby and then the Spurs would still have the MLE to go after a bigman( like Sheed, Zaza,Gortat). Or you could go after a lesser quality big man for part of the MLE and go after a two guard like Dahntay Jones, Rashad McCants for the other part of the MLE if Finley were to decline his option.

[DPG21920]

I just assumed it was a "typo" and that I knew that PB meant extension even though he was saying 2010 :lol

By the way PB, my name starts with a J, so if we did a spin off, it could be the PB&J show.

Then this could be the intro (remixed though):

Z3ZAGBL6UBA

[DPG21920]

If Shamsports is right, then you could offer Mason + Bonner + Marcus Williams for Camby and then the Spurs would still have the MLE to go after a bigman( like Sheed, Zaza,Gortat) and or a two guard (if Finley declines his option).

But why would they take that offer? Camby is expiring and so are those other guys. So they gain nothing there.

They really are not getting talent back that matches Camby, so they lose there.

Unless somehow they think that Mason is enough at the SG to add depth vs losing the depth at C.

[coyotes_geek]

If Shamsports is right, then you could offer Mason + Bonner + Marcus Williams for Camby and then the Spurs would still have the MLE to go after a bigman( like Sheed, Zaza,Gortat). Or you could go after a lesser quality big man for part of the MLE and go after a two guard like Dahntay Jones, Rashad McCants for the other part of the MLE if Finley were to decline his option.

They could offer, but I doubt the Clippers would bite. They can get better value than that.

[MaNu4Tres]

But why would they take that offer? Camby is expiring and so are those other guys. So they gain nothing there.

They really are not getting talent back that matches Camby, so they lose there.

Unless somehow they think that Mason is enough at the SG to add depth vs losing the depth at C.

Clippers were willing to trade Camby for Mike Miller straight up(Miller has an expiring contract). Clippers first offered the Twolves Kaman for Miller and Twolves were more than willing to get the trade done. When that happened Clippers countered with Camby instead and the Twolves then turned their attention to the Wizards deal. That being said, Clippers need two guard help and Mason would provide that and help Eric Gordon out at the two spot. Mason had a better year last year than Miller and they both have expiring contracts. It was also stated by Ric Bucher that Camby was close to being traded to the Thunder for nothing a week ago.

All that being considered, I believe Mason+ Bonner + Marcus Williams could bring Camby to SA. IMO

[coyotes_geek]

:lol Good times back then.

Mostly good. :p:

I'll confess that with the big trade going down yesterday I went to check out SR for the first time in months and discovered that I've been given the stealth ban treatment. :lol

[JudynTX]

Mostly good. :p:

I'll confess that with the big trade going down yesterday I went to check out SR for the first time in months and discovered that I've been given the stealth ban treatment. :lol

PMGing you :lol

[samikeyp]

Mostly good. :p:

I'll confess that with the big trade going down yesterday I went to check out SR for the first time in months and discovered that I've been given the stealth ban treatment. :lol

Sounds about right. You are better off here. :toast

[coyotes_geek]

Sounds about right. You are better off here. :toast

:toast

Agreed.

[chreph]

Wow... lots of defensive people here! Maybe PB should have phrased it better. If the Spurs don't at least take the eventual champs to 7 games, do you extend Manu? If you don't win now and he's not healthy, no $10+ mil extension. If you don't win now and he IS healthy, do you still offer $10-$12 mil for another shot with the cast all another year older? If he's healthy and it's still not enough, the money is already committed to TP, TD, and RJ. If they're going to make a change, not giving Manu $10+ mil a year would be the easiest way out. I'm not saying the Spurs wouldn't still resign him but the dynamic is a little different when you've got $15 mil committed to another player versus if you didn't.

[timvp]

All those that believe the Spurs are willing to pay $24m over 2 years to a guy that will be 35 when the season starts, had problems on both ankles, and only play 72% of the games the last 2 years....please shoot me an email.

I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to offer you.Manu is 31. He won't be 35 until the offseason of 2012.

And yeah, I too have to disagree with PB. The Jefferson trade makes it more likely that Manu will remain a Spur. The scenario in that the Spurs would let him walk was if they were going to clear cap space during the summer of 2010. The 2010 plan is now dead ... so that scenario is also dead.

If the Spurs let him walk now, they'd basically just get the MLE to replace him with. They'd be crazy to do that ... and they won't.

The chances of him getting an extension this summer just went way up. Tacking two years onto his contract to match it up with Duncan's deal makes a huge amount of sense now, even if you consider his injury woes.

[Brazil]

so timvp time to move your avatar I guess