North Korea threatens to "wipe the USA off the map"

[sonic21]

full article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090624/ap_on_re_as/as_koreas_nuclear)



SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea accused Washington of seeking to "provoke a second Korean War" as the regime prepared to hold maritime military exercises off the eastern coast.

U.S. and regional authorities were watching closely for signs that North Korea might fire short- or mid-range missiles during the June 25 to July 10 timeframe cited in a no-sail ban for military drills sent to Japan's Coast Guard.

North Korea had warned previously it would fire a long-range missile as a response to U.N. Security Council condemnation of an April rocket launch seen as a cover for its ballistic missile technology.

An underground nuclear test last month drew more Security Council action: a resolution seeking to clamp down on North Korea's trading of banned arms and weapons-related material by requiring U.N. member states to request inspections of ships carrying suspected cargo.

In a first test of the new resolution, a North Korean ship suspected of transporting illicit weapons was sailing off China's coast with a U.S. destroyer close behind.

The Kang Nam, which left the North Korean port of Nampo a week ago, is believed bound for Myanmar, South Korean and U.S. officials said.

Myanmar state television downplayed the reports of a possible weapons shipment Wednesday evening, saying another North Korean vessel was expected to pick up a load of rice but that the government had no information about the Kang Nam.

A senior U.S. defense official said Wednesday that the ship had already cleared the Taiwan Strait.

He said he didn't know how much range the Kang Nam has — that is, whether or when it may need to stop in some port to refuel — but that the Kang Nam has in the past stopped in Hong Kong's port.

Another U.S. defense official said he tended to doubt reports that the Kang Nam was carrying nuclear-related equipment, saying the information officials have received seems to indicate the cargo is conventional munitions.

The U.S. officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing intelligence.

Officials said last week that they believed the ship was carrying smaller arms, though they didn't elaborate.

The U.S. and its allies have not decided whether to contact and request inspection of the ship, Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said Wednesday.

"That's a decision that will have to be made at some point, and not necessarily just by us or this government," he said at a news conference. "I think we will likely take (the decision) collectively with our allies and partners."

He said he didn't believe a decision would come soon.
North Korea has said it would consider interception of its ships a declaration of war, and on Wednesday accused the U.S. of seeking to start another Korean War.

"If the U.S. imperialists start another war, the army and people of Korea will ... wipe out the aggressors on the globe once and for all," a dispatch from the official Korean Central News Agency said.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

mr obama. don't screw this up.

[jman3000]

So looks like the Korean Central News Agency hired Saddam's media guy.

NK just might make me go all neocon if nothing more than to shut that piece of shit up once and for all.

[SonOfAGun]

Let them throw words all they want. Words are meaningless. The second they attempt to damage America or S. Korea though, you've got to lower the hammer. American economy would take a huge hit if S. Korea took major damage.

[sam1617]

Let them throw words all they want. Words are meaningless. The second they attempt to damage America or S. Korea though, you've got to lower the hammer. American economy would take a huge hit if S. Korea took major damage.

+1.

Call them loudmouths and braggarts, since that's what they are, then leave them be. If they try to back up their threat, squash them like a bug.

[sabar]

Right. And the Clippers are going to dethrone the Lakers next year.

[Extra Stout]

Because of where Seoul is, if NK chose to launch an attack, they could destroy Seoul before SK or the U.S. could respond, and if the U.S. or SK tried to act pre-emptively, NK could take out Seoul before its weapons could be neutralized.

If NK aims a nuclear missile at Hawaii and tries to blackmail the U.S. with it, which appears to be the endgame of all this, it will be necessary to destroy the country, although that means we also are signing on for the destruction of much of South Korea including Seoul.

The can has been kicked down the road so long that the end of the road is close by.

Now I don't know what China thinks of all this. It would be in everybody's best interest for China simply to invade North Korea, destroy the regime, and occupy the country.

[velik_m]

American economy would take a huge hit if S. Korea took major damage.

Why?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Because of where Seoul is, if NK chose to launch an attack, they could destroy Seoul before SK or the U.S. could respond, and if the U.S. or SK tried to act pre-emptively, NK could take out Seoul before its weapons could be neutralized.

If NK aims a nuclear missile at Hawaii and tries to blackmail the U.S. with it, which appears to be the endgame of all this, it will be necessary to destroy the country, although that means we also are signing on for the destruction of much of South Korea including Seoul.

The can has been kicked down the road so long that the end of the road is close by.

Now I don't know what China thinks of all this. It would be in everybody's best interest for China simply to invade North Korea, destroy the regime, and occupy the country.i would kinda think that china knows that we have no means to really defend ourselves(monetarily) when the crap hits the fan. i'm thinking they are worried about us paying them back somehow. i would think china would muscle kim somehow, someway. no?

[Extra Stout]

Why?
Major trading partner.

[Extra Stout]

i would kinda think that china knows that we have no means to really defend ourselves(monetarily) when the crap hits the fan. i'm thinking they are worried about us paying them back somehow. i would think china would muscle kim somehow, someway. no?
China is first and foremost about making money. Instability in their part of the world, involving their top trading partner, is not good for business.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

China is first and foremost about making money. Instability in their part of the world, involving their top trading partner, is not good for business.
so do you think china will meddle?

[BlackSwordsMan]

fucking einstien

[velik_m]

I found this piece of info on http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2800.htm:


Two-way trade between North and South Korea, legalized in 1988, hit almost $1.82 billion in 2008, much of it related to out-processing or assembly work undertaken by South Korean firms in the Kaesong Industrial Complex (KIC). A significant portion of the total through 2007 included R.O.K. Government aid, but that assistance stopped in 2008, except for energy aid (heavy fuel oil) under the Six-Party Talks. Thus, in 2008, about 94% of the total trade consisted of commercial transactions, much of that based on processing-on-commission arrangements and the light industry operations in KIC. The R.O.K. is North Korea's second-largest trading partner, after China.

[sabar]

I don't see how China could get any benefit from trading with NK. A bunch of crappy weapons for food? That is seriously lopsided. China already produces their own weapons, which are pretty good in modern standards. I'm sure they'd rather trade arms with russia

[DarkReign]

I dont walk with ES when it comes to China.

Its my opinion that this entire situation is what China wants. If our country (America) is the camel, North Korea could be the straw.

Yes, China holds a bunch of our debt (almost a trillion, iirc). I dont think of the Chinese as dumb enough to think America will ever pay that debt back. The debt they hold is less an asset in finance as it is an edge in international politics.

Why is it you think Obama and Co. arent talking super-tough about NK? Giving ultimatums and such? I believe its because they cant. They financially cannot.

China is behind North Korea, fuck what the press and media say. You think Kim Jong is just, what? Reinventing the ballistics wheel with these tests?

North Korea is to China what Afghanistan was to the US. A proxy to use against a competitor. The CIA was all up in Afghanistan during the Russian occupation/invasion. Arming them, training them, helping the resistance. We didnt care one iota if Afghanistan "won the war" or wtf-ever, we were there to weaken an opponent, nothing more nothing less.

Fast forward 20 years and the same proxy battles are being fought only its our turn to spin the chamber and take a shot. China has us in a lose-lose situation.

Talk tough and instigate a madman with nuclear capabilities unilaterally? Dumb.

Try and convince the UN to go into a unified front with an ultimatum of war, while China holds veto power? Utter waste of time and clout.

Threaten China through back channels that they need to get their dog on a leash? $1,000,000,000,000 right now or go fuck yourself with a sharp stick.

Send your military into Japanese waters as a counter measure/threat of possible attack? Oh, Im quite sure the Chinese would just love us to be in their sphere of influence, right? "Oh sure, come on in! We dont care! yeah, yeah...anything for you dumb, ignorant Americans."

Or, you can do whats being done right now. Nothing, nada.

Thats why you see trepidation from our lead officials. This is a waiting game because your next move is a loser...one way or the other. The best you can hope for is the opponent to make a mistake because theyve out-manuvered you up until this point. It may not be a checkmate situation, but if you falter, it damn well could be. Better to pause the game and let time pass as it seems to be your only ally this far in.

My take anyway.

[SonOfAGun]

Why?

Millions if not billions worth of American businesses are dependent upon South Korean manufacturing.

[DarkReign]

Millions if not billions worth of American businesses are dependent on South Korean manufacturing.

Namely General Motors, ThyssenKrupp (american divisions), BorgWarner and some other huge Tier One supplier whose name fails me at this time.

Those are four HUGE companies I can think of who employ hundreds of thousands Americans.

Our sister company has multiple machines in Seoul and the surrounding countryside. My brother-in-law has been there numerous times with numerous other suppliers who "outweigh" our company by a wide, wide margin.

[Spurtacus]

Because of where Seoul is, if NK chose to launch an attack, they could destroy Seoul before SK or the U.S. could respond, and if the U.S. or SK tried to act pre-emptively, NK could take out Seoul before its weapons could be neutralized.

If NK aims a nuclear missile at Hawaii and tries to blackmail the U.S. with it, which appears to be the endgame of all this, it will be necessary to destroy the country, although that means we also are signing on for the destruction of much of South Korea including Seoul.

The can has been kicked down the road so long that the end of the road is close by.

Now I don't know what China thinks of all this. It would be in everybody's best interest for China simply to invade North Korea, destroy the regime, and occupy the country.

China doesn't want US troops in NK. One guess who they would side with if a war started.

[coyotes_geek]

China is fine letting NK annoy us, hell, they're probably laughing at us over it. But China is too invested in us to let this blow up into some major armed conflict.

[spursfan09]

Major trading partner.

Such as? Educate me! :)

[jman3000]

Seriously?

Just look at a random piece of electronics and I'd bet there's a decent chance it's from SK.

[velik_m]

I don't see how China could get any benefit from trading with NK. A bunch of crappy weapons for food? That is seriously lopsided. China already produces their own weapons, which are pretty good in modern standards. I'm sure they'd rather trade arms with russia

NK is rich with minerals (iron, copper, coal...).

[angrydude]

so do you think china will meddle?

China had better

But I personally think this is more for the people inside North Korea than those outside it though. They aren't religious fanatics over there. And they couldn't really be stupid enough to follow through with their threats.

[Slydragon]

I really don't follow politics but I have been reading on North Korea. I'm not supporting another war but North Korea needs to shit or get off the pot.

Sound like a freaking middle school when some lame gang had it out for another lame gang and the treat was "we have Ak's at home" "We shot our AK's last weekend" So the other lame gang does not do shit because of this "treat" and all damn year it's back and forth shit talking until some other lame gangs blind sides them both and all hell break loose.

Well substitute Ak's for nukes and it's the same damn shit, who will be the third party to blind side this and start all kinds of shit.


Yea, I know that's odd way of saying it but it's past 3 and I'm feeling good.

[DarkReign]

China is fine letting NK annoy us, hell, they're probably laughing at us over it. But China is too invested in us to let this blow up into some major armed conflict.

I disagree. Once again, China is under no delusion that its debt with us will ever be repayed, IMO.

They know that investment is a loss. But...think about it this way...

In the late 70s/early 80s, if you had told the American government that for the low price of $1 trillion dollars, you could expedite the collapse of the Soviet Union, do you think they would do it?

I certainly do. Its my opinion that this is exactly China's position. They have us throughly by the balls financially, the next step is to have us engage one of their proxies. If we react to North Korea without them ever having actually attacked US interests, then China can play up their fake intolerance of "American aggression" in their area of the world and play the trump card of calling in our debt.

Which would ruin our economy over night, thus greatly reducing our ability to militarily engage North Korea (who is no doubt propped financially and logistically by China). Any action North Korea took against the United States would be permissable under China's blessing, even dropping a nuke on American forces.

Point is, China aint doing shit right now. If I were them, I'd be too busy laughing my ass off that the greatest power the world has ever known was so incredibly easy to manipulate. The Americans greatest downfall was vanity. They just couldnt envision a lifestyle that didnt rely on easy credit and prolonged, low interest rate debt.

[DarkReign]

On the flip side, America's best course of action right now is inaction.

If North Korea were dumb enough to drop a bomb on American interests (ROK, Japan, Hawaii, a navy ship, etc), then we'd bring the hammer down and China would just have to STFU about it.

If, on the other hand, we proceed the way most seem to think on this board by bitch-smacking lil' Kim preemptively....well, that would be one of the largest mistakes this country has ever made. Maybe even ever.

[coyotes_geek]

I disagree. Once again, China is under no delusion that its debt with us will ever be repayed, IMO.

Not true. Every dollar they loan us will be repaid, in full, with interest. It will be repaid with new borrowings as our government continues the practice of paying off one credit card with another. The day people start thinking the US government is going to default on the debt is the day the global economy comes to a stop.

[LnGrrrR]

The way I see it, Kim Jon-Il has a massive short-man complex. NK knows that if it WERE to start something with us, it really COULD be blown off the map. NK, in no way, can really threaten the US. It could take out a city or something, but then our retribution would be so swift it would be like the Angels of Death themselves.

[ElNono]

This is big mouth Saddam version 2.0... I'm more concerned with China than these guys.

[DarkReign]

Not true. Every dollar they loan us will be repaid, in full, with interest. It will be repaid with new borrowings as our government continues the practice of paying off one credit card with another. The day people start thinking the US government is going to default on the debt is the day the global economy comes to a stop.

Just "printing more money" only works domestically.

Internationally, China would not accept the paper we gave them.

So, no, China wont receive one red cent because they would refuse it. Thats why they recently asked our debt to them be converted to Yuan...you know, a currency thats worth something more than a promise.

[coyotes_geek]

It's not printing more money. It's borrowing money from Peter to pay back the money we borrowed from Paul. Then borrowing from Mary to pay back Peter. And so on, and so on.

[DarkReign]

It's not printing more money. It's borrowing money from Peter to pay back the money we borrowed from Paul. Then borrowing from Mary to pay back Peter. And so on, and so on.

Great. ...and exactly who is Peter so we can rob him to pay Paul (China)?

See my point. China was the last one left, thats why we went to them in the first place.

Who are we going to borrow from...Britain?! Take a look at the minority party's agenda when it comes to fiscal responsibility and realize, its never going to happen.

France doesnt have the money, period. Nor does any other nation besides maybe Germany.

China was it. They were and are our only semi-equal on the economic scale (soon to surpass, btw).

For example, when a mom and pop business goes to get a loan, they can go anywhere for it. The local credit union or super-large Megabank.

When the #1 Fortune 500 company needs a loan, they have a very limited pool of banks. All being Super Megabank 2.0.

Translate that to international terms and America could only borrow what we needed from like, 4 countries tops. 3 of which will not do it, 1 of which is playing us like a fiddle.

[coyotes_geek]

I gotcha. I didn't fully understand where you were headed at first. My mind is in nba draft mode, not world events mode right now.

[jman3000]

Our GDP is still double that of China's. I think ours is around 13 trillion... there's is like 6.5T or something.

There's might be growing in leaps and bounds... but I wouldn't go as far as to say they will overtake us soon.

[DarkReign]

Our GDP is still double that of China's. I think ours is around 13 trillion... there's is like 6.5T or something.

There's might be growing in leaps and bounds... but I wouldn't go as far as to say they will overtake us soon.

You do know that China's Yuan is undervalued by a very wide margin, yes?

If their currency was at its actual value, their GDP would increase nearly 1/3 overnight. They are far, far closer than GDP would indicate.

[jman3000]

Then I stand corrected.

[DarkReign]

Consider that they hold $1 trillion of our debt, that their currency is purposely and extremely undervalued and that theyre a growing nation of over 1 billion people.

Now, factor in our economic decline, our insurmountable debt (now at $13 trillion without factoring in Medicare/MedicAid and Social Security promises) and the complete lack of a realistic view of the entire situation from President to citizen and I would argue that the scales are as balanced as they have ever been.

Something could tip those scales.

[sam1617]

You do know that China's Yuan is undervalued by a very wide margin, yes?

If their currency was at its actual value, their GDP would increase nearly 1/3 overnight. They are far, far closer than GDP would indicate.

China is going to screw themselves over... Just like they have every time they have approached their potential something drastic will happen. My guess is the shoddy construction of the Three Rivers dam will fail in an earthquake. Or their shitty social and political structure will collapse under the weight of an educated middle class, which will get either the political structure destroyed, or the middle class crushed.

Of course, if they do keep their course, and nothing bad happens, then they will dominate the world politically and economically.

[DarkReign]

Then I stand corrected.

Hope I didnt come off sounding like a prick, btw, with that "do you?" thing.

[DarkReign]

China is going to screw themselves over... Just like they have every time they have approached their potential something drastic will happen. My guess is the shoddy construction of the Three Rivers dam will fail in an earthquake. Or their shitty social and political structure will collapse under the weight of an educated middle class, which will get either the political structure destroyed, or the middle class crushed.

Of course, if they do keep their course, and nothing bad happens, then they will dominate the world politically and economically.

I happen to agree with you immensely. But the problem lies not in what tragedy could/maybe befall them as it is the problem that we Americans do not have control of the world like we're used to.

Our economy depends on world economic domination. In large part, the world's economy is based on our dominance as well. If we fall, a lot of others fall with us.

But there is a sleeping giant waiting to fill that vacuum.

[sam1617]

I happen to agree with you immensely. But the problem lies not in what tragedy could/maybe befall them as it is the problem that we Americans do not have control of the world like we're used to.

Our economy depends on world economic domination. In large part, the world's economy is based on our dominance as well. If we fall, a lot of others fall with us.

But there is a sleeping giant waiting to fill that vacuum.

Absolutely agree with that. Its stupid and shortsighted how many countries have tied there economy to ours to the extent that they have, and how much our economy has been predicated on having those countries...

[jman3000]

Hope I didnt come off sounding like a prick, btw, with that "do you?" thing.

meh... I don't take anything personal on a forum. If I'm wrong on something or if my justification for saying something is wrong then I'd rather be corrected than to keep on going believing a falsity.

I knew the Yuan was undervalued but not to what extent.

[ElNono]

Absolutely agree with that. Its stupid and shortsighted how many countries have tied there economy to ours to the extent that they have, and how much our economy has been predicated on having those countries...

Some countries had no choice. By requesting loans from the IMF and/or World Bank, they're required to keep a backing for their currency in US dollars, among other requests. Their debt is also normally calculated in US dollars.

[DarkReign]

Just in case it isnt readily apparent, my entire position on this subject is only an opinion. It is my belief we are being fucking played by China but our national credit addiction prevents us from doing anything about it.

The worst kind of Catch22 there is.

[sam1617]

Some countries had no choice. By requesting loans from the IMF and/or World Bank, they're required to keep a backing for their currency in US dollars, among other requests. Their debt is also normally calculated in US dollars.

Theres always a choice. I have little pity for countries and people that screw themselves over by living (and ruling) outside their means.

[sam1617]

Just in case it isnt readily apparent, my entire position on this subject is only an opinion. It is my belief we are being fucking played by China but our national credit addiction prevents us from doing anything about it.

The worst kind of Catch22 there is.

Yep. Just stupid. Eternally stupid for the US. Brilliant for China...

[clambake]

so, some of you think the IMF and World Bank only get involved if a host country request funds?

[DarkReign]

Eternally stupid for the US.

I'll cut our leaders some slack and only say they were not alone in living way outside their means. One could argue government should be more responsible than its people (my opinion), but then one could point to simple human nature and realize thats just a pipe dream you tell kids so they respect authority.


Brilliant for China...

Absolutely. Nevermind North Korea or even current climate politics for the moment and gaze 20-30 years into the future (maybe sooner, idk). If this goes the worst possible way imaginable for America, that is its utter collapse taking a large portion of the world with it, but goes exactly right for China (waiting for the pieces to fall where they may so they can buy up whats left of the world's debris with an undervalued currency, check the balance of Yuan to Whatever-the-fuck-is-leftover at the end of the day and quite literally go from rural shithole to Most Dominant Economic Power our world has ever seen)...

Our grandchildren will be reading about probably the quickest, most subversive
Cold War that ended with the obliteration of an opponent. It will be studied and analyzed and admired by anyone not a US citizen.

Germany doesnt much like reading or teaching about WW2 much, either. Theyre not delusional, just prideful. Same would go here. Outfoxed....handily.

[DarkReign]

so, some of you think the IMF and World Bank only get involved if a host country request funds?

Ummm, no. Not even close.

For example, in my line of work (automotive) there are certain entry criteria one must have if they want to do business.

The lowest formalized version is called ISO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization). Thats the lowest entry level qualification required. The hierarchy goes way up from there (2207, TS, etc, etc).

The World Bank and IMF work the same way, in effect.

"Oh, you want to sell you whats-its in the US? You do know we deal only with other Club Members, dont you? Yeah, yeah its cool. Youre just going to have to go ahead and get with the World Bank and have them look you over, make sure all is right with you, then we'll talk."

The rest is history.

[LnGrrrR]

Consider that they hold $1 trillion of our debt, that their currency is purposely and extremely undervalued and that theyre a growing nation of over 1 billion people.

Now, factor in our economic decline, our insurmountable debt (now at $13 trillion without factoring in Medicare/MedicAid and Social Security promises) and the complete lack of a realistic view of the entire situation from President to citizen and I would argue that the scales are as balanced as they have ever been.

Something could tip those scales.

A point to bring up is that the yuan is valuable BECAUSE it's undervalued deliberately. If China wasn't playing around with their yuan, then it would be less 'valuable' to other countries.

[LnGrrrR]

Our grandchildren will be reading about probably the quickest, most subversive
Cold War that ended with the obliteration of an opponent. It will be studied and analyzed and admired by anyone not a US citizen.

Germany doesnt much like reading or teaching about WW2 much, either. Theyre not delusional, just prideful. Same would go here. Outfoxed....handily.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you. :) Russia had a much larger area to cover, and didn't have a strong GDP backing it up IIRC.

I think we'll adjust and recover; it will just take awhile. It would help if we stopped getting into wars too.

[sam1617]

Ummm, no. Not even close.

For example, in my line of work (automotive) there are certain entry criteria one must have if they want to do business.

The lowest formalized version is called ISO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization). Thats the lowest entry level qualification required. The hierarchy goes way up from there (2207, TS, etc, etc).

The World Bank and IMF work the same way, in effect.

"Oh, you want to sell you whats-its in the US? You do know we deal only with other Club Members, dont you? Yeah, yeah its cool. Youre just going to have to go ahead and get with the World Bank and have them look you over, make sure all is right with you, then we'll talk."

The rest is history.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that your nation or company has to work with the World Bank and IMF. You can still grow your nations economy internally, and avoid running up debt or reliance on foreign powers.

[DarkReign]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that your nation or company has to work with the World Bank and IMF. You can still grow your nations economy internally, and avoid running up debt or reliance on foreign powers.

While true, what youre suggesting is taking the China route. That takes a looooong time. Some countries dont have the means or resources to last that long, especially South American countries that arent rich with natural resource.

You can only sell so much jungle.

[sam1617]

While true, what youre suggesting is taking the China route. That takes a looooong time. Some countries dont have the means or resources to last that long, especially South American countries that arent rich with natural resource.

You can only sell so much jungle.

I would say that if thats the case, chances are getting loans from the World Bank isn't the greatest idea. I'm not arguing that its not freaking hard to run a country debt free, I'm just saying thats the way nations should try. While harder in the short term, it will keep you from collapsing when the rest of the worlds economies do, leaving you to pick up the pieces, since you are the last one standing.

[DarkReign]

A point to bring up is that the yuan is valuable BECAUSE it's undervalued deliberately. If China wasn't playing around with their yuan, then it would be less 'valuable' to other countries.

Right, but the Yuan's only value is with the Chinese. When your currency is artificially low, you can make goods for "less" cost, so to speak. Which keeps their GDP artificially lower because its Gross Domestic Product, that is, how much did all the shit your country makes sell for?

That the yuan is low in value deflates that number, but its a cheaper good in comparison so it sells wildly.

Now, one could argue that the adjustment in the yuan would create more competition in areas the Chinese make their money.

But IMO, that new price competition is unlikely to offset the HUGE gains they would make having to sell their products for an increased price/value while the cost associated to make them in a giant, isolated and independant country like China would remain the same. Factor in their hybrid government and their cost in labor and such would not nearly rise to the value of good sold. Such is the advantage of ultra-nationalistic people like the Asian world tends to be (Japan and China in particular).

Im no economist though. Ive stated that many times here, so Im listening.

[DarkReign]

I would say that if thats the case, chances are getting loans from the World Bank isn't the greatest idea. I'm not arguing that its not freaking hard to run a country debt free, I'm just saying thats the way nations should try. While harder in the short term, it will keep you from collapsing when the rest of the worlds economies do, leaving you to pick up the pieces, since you are the last one standing.

While I admire your altruism, you and I both know the tendencies of human nature and more to the point, Western thinking.

[sam1617]

While I admire your altruism, you and I both know the tendencies of human nature and more to the point, Western thinking.

Yeah, theres a reason why civilizations fall, and at the center of it, IMO, its the lack of drive by the individuals that make up that civilization. Once you are unwilling to work for your luxuries, things start to go down hill really fast.

[DarkReign]

Yeah, theres a reason why civilizations fall, and at the center of it, IMO, its the lack of drive by the individuals that make up that civilization. Once you are unwilling to work for your luxuries, things start to go down hill really fast.

Easy credit and prolonged, low interest debt are to America what Slave labor/population was to Rome.

[sam1617]

Easy credit and prolonged, low interest debt are to America what Slave labor/population was to Rome.

And easy access to gold was to Spain. And cheap goods from colonies for the British Empire.

[RandomGuy]

Because of where Seoul is, if NK chose to launch an attack, they could destroy Seoul before SK or the U.S. could respond, and if the U.S. or SK tried to act pre-emptively, NK could take out Seoul before its weapons could be neutralized.

If NK aims a nuclear missile at Hawaii and tries to blackmail the U.S. with it, which appears to be the endgame of all this, it will be necessary to destroy the country, although that means we also are signing on for the destruction of much of South Korea including Seoul.

The can has been kicked down the road so long that the end of the road is close by.

Now I don't know what China thinks of all this. It would be in everybody's best interest for China simply to invade North Korea, destroy the regime, and occupy the country.

All China really has to do is to stop the shipments of fuel and food that prop their puppets up.

But, I do see the whacky little man in Pyongyang forcing the Chinese to step up to the plate at some point.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I think China and Russia both are secretly pushing N. Korea to challenge us so that we can reveal our missle interecepting capabilities. It makes alot of sense from Russia's pov.