Prehistoric flute in Germany is oldest known

[Phineas J. Whoopee]

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jun2009/9/2/worlds-oldest-instrument-pic-getty-826280143.jpg

BERLIN – A bird-bone flute unearthed in a German cave was carved some 35,000 years ago and is the oldest handcrafted musical instrument yet discovered, archaeologists say, offering the latest evidence that early modern humans in Europe had established a complex and creative culture.

A team led by University of Tuebingen archaeologist Nicholas Conard assembled the flute from 12 pieces of griffon vulture bone scattered in a small plot of the Hohle Fels cave in southern Germany.

Together, the pieces comprise a 8.6-inch (22-centimeter) instrument with five holes and a notched end. Conard said the flute was 35,000 years old.

"It's unambiguously the oldest instrument in the world," Conard told The Associated Press this week. His findings were published online Wednesday by the journal Nature.

Other archaeologists agreed with Conard's assessment.

April Nowell, a Paleolithic archaeologist at the University of Victoria in Canada, said the flute predates previously discovered instruments "but the dates are not so much older that it's surprising or controversial." Nowell was not involved in Conard's research.

The Hohle Fels flute is more complete and appears slightly older than bone and ivory fragments from seven other flutes recovered in southern German caves and documented by Conard and his colleagues in recent years.

Another flute excavated in Austria is believed to be 19,000 years old, and a group of 22 flutes found in the French Pyrenees mountains has been dated at up to 30,000 years ago.

Conard's team excavated the flute in September 2008, the same month they recovered six ivory fragments from the Hohle Fels cave that form a female figurine they believe is the oldest known sculpture of the human form.

Together, the flute and the figure — found in the same layer of sediment — suggest that modern humans had established an advanced culture in Europe 35,000 years ago, said Wil Roebroeks, an archaeologist at Leiden University in the Netherlands who didn't participate in Conard's study.


Now how can anyone say the earth is only 4,000 years old!?!?

[tlongII]

Obviously this is bullshit. :rolleyes

[lefty]

Unbeavable

[jman3000]

Damn. Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I wonder if music predates language. Not complex music... but simple beats made with the hands or thighs.

[PixelPusher]

...and 35,000 years ago, some cave clown was making jokes about flautists.

[Daniel Plainview]

I wonder if music predates language. Not complex music... but simple beats made with the hands or thighs.



My dear sir, If they was already able to make a musical flute out of bone from a bird, I am sure they mastered the art of simple beats and already had a few animal skin bongos lying around.give the fuckers some credit!........ my dear sir.

[velik_m]

This so called reportes really should check their facts.


An ancient bone flute segment, estimated at about 43,ooo up to 82,ooo years old, was found recently at a Neanderthal campsite by Dr. Ivan Turk, a paleontologist at the Slovenian Academy of Sciences in Ljubljana. It's the first flute ever to be associated with Neanderthals and its confirmed age makes it the oldest known musical instrument.

http://www.greenwych.ca/fl-compl.htm

[Bukefal]

http://macedoniadaily.blogspot.com/2007/04/dautovski-to-play-6000-year-old-flute.html

[DarkReign]

Carbon dating is bullshit.

[Soul_Patch]

This article is bullshit, everyone knows eve was playing the skin flute long before this shit came along...

[Wild Cobra]

Obviously this is bullshit. :rolleyes
Why? Are you a Chjristian Fundamentalist that believes mankind was created 6,013 years ago?

Carbon dating is bullshit.
No it's not. There were earlier inconsistencies that are now understood.

[z0sa]

Humans can build semi-advanced flutes and participate in "complex, creative" cultures 35000 years ago but they couldn't write anything down til some 29000 years afterward.

I call bullshit on any complex, creative culture without a system of writing. It's how mostly any "complex" creative culture communicated until AGB. Since this was obviously only one of many, the evidence is overwhelming against no written history by this period of time.

...

[Richard Cranium]

This report has holes in it.

[z0sa]

This so called reportes really should check their facts.



http://www.greenwych.ca/fl-compl.htm



considering its entirely opinion about the age of the item, you could probably ask 10 different scientists with the given facts, and receive 10 different answers. Hence that incredibly accurate "42000 - 82000" years ago estimate :lmao

and carbon dating would not accurately date something less than 5000 years old approximately. "New" discoveries about the method wouldn't change that.

[jman3000]

My dear sir, If they was already able to make a musical flute out of bone from a bird, I am sure they mastered the art of simple beats and already had a few animal skin bongos lying around.give the fuckers some credit!........ my dear sir.


ummm.. your reading comprehension skills suck. The flute story had nothing to do with my comment.

[jman3000]

Why? Are you a Chjristian Fundamentalist that believes mankind was created 6,013 years ago?

No it's not. There were earlier inconsistencies that are now understood.

They were both being extremely sarcastic.

Nobody really thinks like that. If they do they aren't taken very seriously.

[z0sa]

Nobody really thinks like that. If they do they aren't taken very seriously.

the same way people only joke about your 'contributing' posts on the subject, like the one earlier, since you obviously have no clue what you're talking about? I won't mention the glacier post you made in the other thread that a 5th grader would have laughed at.

btw, there's literally tens of millions of creationists in the west. Again, I'll avoid mentioning the east where darwin's naturalism has never had a toehold. World wide, "creationists" (people who believe God created the earth, possibly even recently) outnumber naturalists exponentially. The only reason you get away with calling US the dumbasses is because you hide behind 'science'.

Let me assure you that science, like all human endeavors, is extremely fallible.

[Bigzax]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sZ0_qnDDsFI/RnA0h1c0jyI/AAAAAAAAAeU/La4HjBPPMY0/s400/Alyson+Hannigan+in+American+pie.jpg

[Bukefal]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sZ0_qnDDsFI/RnA0h1c0jyI/AAAAAAAAAeU/La4HjBPPMY0/s400/Alyson+Hannigan+in+American+pie.jpg

:lol:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Humans can build semi-advanced flutes and participate in "complex, creative" cultures 35000 years ago but they couldn't write anything down til some 29000 years afterward.

I call bullshit on any complex, creative culture without a system of writing. It's how mostly any "complex" creative culture communicated until AGB. Since this was obviously only one of many, the evidence is overwhelming against no written history by this period of time.

...

So wait, you think that it's easier for a culture to develop WRITING than music? Honestly?

Writing, a complex code that's a stand-in for language, is easier to develop than music, which is simply a rhythm based form of communication?

[manufan10]

I wonder if someone played it to see if it worked. If not, it's just a stick with holes. :lol

[z0sa]

So wait, you think that it's easier for a culture to develop WRITING than music? Honestly?

Writing, a complex code that's a stand-in for language, is easier to develop than music, which is simply a rhythm based form of communication?

Music isn't direct communication, first off (in almost all cases). Especially for a prehistoric culture.

Second, no "complex" culture has ever existed, to my knowledge, without some form of writing as communication. Not even isolated tribes of cavemen - they painted on walls to record their experiences, not for mere entertainment. The fact that a complex, cultured mini-civilization was unable is develop a hieroglyphics system is extremely unlikely. It's probably the #1 circumstantial proof against ancient man. The written word, which by a communicating culture (especially larger ones) IS fairly easily developed, only began use 6000 years ago approximately. Even the earliest written history of cultures, like the Babylonians, depict sweeping epics like Gilgamesh despite no paper or easily accessible writing tools.

Man wants to write things down, he wants to record his experiences. The fact man didn't do that until very recently is telling.

[leemajors]

Music isn't direct communication, first off (in almost all cases). Especially for a prehistoric culture.

Second, no "complex" culture has ever existed, to my knowledge, without some form of writing as communication. Not even isolated tribes of cavemen - they painted on walls to record their experiences, not for mere entertainment. The fact that a complex, cultured mini-civilization was unable is develop a hieroglyphics system is extremely unlikely. It's probably the #1 circumstantial proof against ancient man. The written word, which by a communicating culture (especially larger ones) IS fairly easily developed, only began use 6000 years ago approximately. Even the earliest written history of cultures, like the Babylonians, depict sweeping epics like Gilgamesh despite no paper or easily accessible writing tools.

Man wants to write things down, he wants to record his experiences. The fact man didn't do that until very recently is telling.

wasn't the Torah only written down after the second destruction of the Temple?

[z0sa]

wasn't the Torah only written down after the second destruction of the Temple?

Parents purposely taught their children to read and write so they could study the holy articles themselves, and participate more openly and informatively in an intense theological society. While I do not know offhand a specific date for the torah's authoring, I do know the previous sentence to be true for all material, at any time period, I've studied concerning the Jewish history.

[manufan10]

wasn't the Torah only written down after the second destruction of the Temple?

According to Moses Maimonides, the 12th Century rabbi and philosopher, Moses was the Torah's author, receiving it from God either as divine inspiration or as direct dictation in the Hebrew year 2449 AM (1313 BC).

Eighth and ninth principles of Maimonidies' 13 Principles, Artscroll Daily Siddur, page 75.

That's from wikipedia. I had a website that talked about the history of the Jewish people and mentioned when it was believed that the Torah was written, but I can't seem to find it now.

[DarkReign]

According to Moses Maimonides, the 12th Century rabbi and philosopher, Moses was the Torah's author, receiving it from God either as divine inspiration or as direct dictation in the Hebrew year 2449 AM (1313 BC).

Eighth and ninth principles of Maimonidies' 13 Principles, Artscroll Daily Siddur, page 75.

That's from wikipedia. I had a website that talked about the history of the Jewish people and mentioned when it was believed that the Torah was written, but I can't seem to find it now.

Just PM Extra Stout. Dude is for all intents and purposes a qualified Theist.

[manufan10]

Just PM Extra Stout. Dude is for all intents and purposes a qualified Theist.

:tu

[leemajors]

Parents purposely taught their children to read and write so they could study the holy articles themselves, and participate more openly and informatively in an intense theological society. While I do not know offhand a specific date for the torah's authoring, I do know the previous sentence to be true for all material, at any time period, I've studied concerning the Jewish history.

the Torah was not written because it was forbidden to do so. Oral tradition and recitation ensured an unbroken transmission from Moses passed down to and from Rabbi to Rabbi. Your sentence is incorrect. Didn't the Pharisees throw a fit when Jesus presumed to lecture about Scripture at age 12 in the temple? The Torah was not for children to interpret.

[Thunder Dan]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/40/120744605_844e777e3f_m.jpg

[z0sa]

Your sentence is incorrect.

How so? The parents taught their children to read and write so they could study the holy articles themselves (this is a fact). By Jesus day, the OT had been completed for quite some time (about 400 years, if I remember). I'm unsure of your 'torah denial' assertion, that people could not freely read of it in the Temple. I have heard of them passing it down through word of mouth but never that, by the time judges and kings were around, that it could not be studied except by the holy men.


Didn't the Pharisees throw a fit when Jesus presumed to lecture about Scripture at age 12 in the temple? The Torah was not for children to interpret.

Pharisees were powerful men, who let that power get to them by Jesus' day if the whole crucifixion/exchange a real criminal's life for jesus' life thing doesn't make it obvious.

You seem knowledgable on the subject. Fill me in where I am inaccurate, please.