Shaq is a Cavalier

[TheMACHINE]

you still have failed to identify the risk involved. You keep hinting at it, but have not given us the risk. Give me a scenario that in March, the Cavs will have wished they had Ben Wallace playing on their team rather than Shaq.

-Injured Shaq
-Slow Shaq
-38 year old Shaq
-Clogs the lane more (and we know how much your #1 guy likes the lane)
-Another go-to guy with poor Free throws
-Ego problems
-Wont play back to back
-Will crap on your coach if he dont get his way
-Less touches from the best player

Thos are ALL RISK. Yes Ben Wallace might not get you 18ppg, but Cavs got to the ECF with him. IMO, Shaq has more cons then pros, just ask the Suns.

[JamStone]

no hate, im just stating the obvious....that shaq is washed up and couldnt even help a team with a 2 time mvp and all stars. Instead of helping, the team turned into the #1 team into the Western Conference to missing the playoffs. Im just laughing at people (Fans and GM's) who think the Big Hypocrisy is the answer to thier problems.


The problem is your identifying what people are saying. Even realistic Cavs fans probably aren't going to say Shaq is the "answer to their problems."

The discussion many of us are having is whether the Cavs trading for Shaq was a risk or not. For what they gave up and since his contract is expiring, Shaq was not a risk for the Cavs.

[stretch]

typical insecure lakers fans. no surpises here. just posting the insecurities they are supposed to post.

[JamStone]

-Injured Shaq
-Slow Shaq
-38 year old Shaq
-Clogs the lane more (and we know how much your #1 guy likes the lane)
-Another go-to guy with poor Free throws
-Ego problems
-Wont play back to back
-Will crap on your coach if he dont get his way
-Less touches from the best player

Thos are ALL RISK. Yes Ben Wallace might not get you 18ppg, but Cavs got to the ECF with him. IMO, Shaq has more cons then pros, just ask the Suns.

To get him, traded:

Ben Wallace
Sasha Pavlovic
#45 pick
$500,000

If he doesn't work out, $20 million coming off the books.

No risk.

[Thunder Dan]

-Injured Shaq
-Slow Shaq
-38 year old Shaq
-Clogs the lane more (and we know how much your #1 guy likes the lane)
-Another go-to guy with poor Free throws
-Ego problems
-Wont play back to back
-Will crap on your coach if he dont get his way
-Less touches from the best player

Thos are ALL RISK. Yes Ben Wallace might not get you 18ppg, but Cavs got to the ECF with him. IMO, Shaq has more cons then pros, just ask the Suns.

alright, so the Cavs need him to play back to backs?

did his poor free throw shooting hurt him with the Heat or Lakers?

Shaq slower than Ben Wallace?


I could see if the Cavs gave up West or something, THEY GAVE THEM BEN WALLACE! 2009 Ben Wallace. The guy that doesn't even know if he wants to still play Ben Wallace.

[Thunder Dan]

if Shaq sits out the whole regular season..the Cavs still win 55 games- right or wrong?

[Allanon]

This is where you start changing your argument. You want to go all the way back to Orlando and the Lakers to show how Shaq is a team killer, but you won't even go back 3 years to when he helped a team win a championship.

Listen, I personally don't think Shaq puts the Cavs over the top. I don't even think Shaq helps the Cavs beat a healthy Celtics team. I'm just saying for what they gave up and since Shaq's contract is expiring, there was no risk involved for the Cavs to make this trade.

If having a 4 for 4 history of bad chemistry isn't a risk, I don't know what is.

Cavs are only going down with this trade. Bad trade in my book, but we'll find out in June.

[TheMACHINE]

They gave up Ben Wallace's expiring contract, Sasha Pavlovic, and a middle of the second round draft pick. Shaq on the Cavs might not work, but for what they gave up in return and the fact Shaq's contract is expiring, there was no risk involved.

Once again, Risk involves negatives too Jams.

Its like saying you're gonna replace an old manager with a new one because the new one gets more sales but without checking his history, his personality, how well he works with others. Will he be stepping on older employees? Will he talk shit about you, his boss? Will he work well with the startegy your business has. Is it worth the risk?

[ElNono]

I'm still waiting for the risks other than "chemistry" which the Cavs were #1 in this year and didn't win. Chemistry was the reason the Suns didn't win with Shaq? How about the fact that they didn't play defense, or run a style Shaq was well suited in

The other risk is making Bron unhappy and seeing him walk next season.
If Shaq is anything like his last seasons in Miami or LA, then he CAN make a team implode. At that point, how do you retain Bron?

[TheMACHINE]

To get him, traded:

Ben Wallace
Sasha Pavlovic
#45 pick
$500,000

If he doesn't work out, $20 million coming off the books.

No risk.

Fine you guys win. No risk..since there is no risk and Shaq fails, its ok for James to become a free agent and leave the Cavs. No risk.

[ElNono]

There will be no chemistry problems, James will make sure of that. And Im sure Shaq will fit right in with all of the immature sideline antics and picture taking that the Cavs love to do. In short, the Cavs just played their King of spades, but Boston has the last play.

Same thing was said when Shaq arrived in Phoenix. You know how that story ends.

[TheMACHINE]

The other risk is making Bron unhappy and seeing him walk next season.
If Shaq is anything like his last seasons in Miami or LA, then he CAN make a team implode. At that point, how do you retain Bron?

Thats the risk that people seem to forget in here. Everyone is like..no risk, if it fails, Shaq 20 millions leaves the books, they only gave up crap players...but i think they forgot about Lebron leaving if it fails.

[Thunder Dan]

Fine you guys win. No risk..since there is no risk and Shaq fails, its ok for James to become a free agent and leave the Cavs. No risk.

the Cavs want Bosh, this is to hold them over in the meantime. This move has no implications on Lebron and 2010 other than showing they will spend money. They could lose 50 games next year, sign Bosh in 2010 and all is well.

[Spur-Addict]

Fine you guys win. No risk..since there is no risk and Shaq fails, its ok for James to become a free agent and leave the Cavs. No risk.

If they lose next year without Shaq, this is still a possibility. With their team constructed as of last year, they couldn't get out of the Eastern Conference. Try again.

[ElNono]

the Cavs want Bosh, this is to hold them over in the meantime. This move has no implications on Lebron and 2010 other than showing they will spend money. They could lose 50 games next year, sign Bosh in 2010 and all is well.

Provided Bron still has any faith on his FO having the capacity to put him on a winning situation. I think every season that ends in a letdown pushes him more out of Cleveland.

[Allanon]

Fine you guys win. No risk..since there is no risk and Shaq fails, its ok for James to become a free agent and leave the Cavs. No risk.

Yup, you and Nono brought up the risk or LeBron walking if this fails miserably. This is a bandage move. This isn't a move for the long term success of the Cavs.

If it works out, great. But if it doesn't work out, in 2010 Cavs would be back with LeBron and NoPlayoffs Williams as the two best players.

If it fails miserably, LeBron has no reason to stay on a rebuilding team.

[Thunder Dan]

Provided Bron still has any faith on his FO having the capacity to put him on a winning situation. I think every season that ends in a letdown pushes him more out of Cleveland.

he would have to leave for greener pastures, and if the Cavs sign Bosh, they have a better situation for him than anywhere expect maybe Portland.

[ElNono]

And you can bet Shaq is going to start pushing for an extension as soon as he ties up 2 good games in a row... he's become too predictable...

[ElNono]

he would have to leave for greener pastures, and if the Cavs sign Bosh, they have a better situation for him than anywhere expect maybe Portland.

Bosh, Lebron and who else? Mo Williams and Delonte West?
You can bet NY will be offering him a max contract, Bosh, and a couple more All-Stars... When the Bron sweepstakes begin it's all out.

[TheMACHINE]

If they lose next year without Shaq, this is still a possibility. With their team constructed as of last year, they couldn't get out of the Eastern Conference. Try again.

Who said they wont make a move. This is about putting all your eggs on Shaq. Dont tell me there isnt any other moves to make out there, if there isnt, its time to get a new GM?

[TheMACHINE]

The Suns were a team that was dead set on playing no defense, and had no true leadership. Shaq may eventually let his ego prevent him from having huge success in Cleveland, but if you are the Cavs, its do or die mode now. Based upon history, Shaq has had much success with players like James, (Penny, Kobe, Wade.)

If you have Shaq playing High/Low with James...James better make that shot.

[Thunder Dan]

Bosh, Lebron and who else? Mo Williams and Delonte West?
You can bet NY will be offering him a max contract, Bosh, and a couple more All-Stars... When the Bron sweepstakes begin it's all out.

considering they would only have money for 2 stars I can't imagine it would be better than what the Cavs have. Cavs can offer 1 max deal, Knicks can offer 2. You fail again

[JamStone]

If having a 4 for 4 history of bad chemistry isn't a risk, I don't know what is.

Cavs are only going down with this trade. Bad trade in my book, but we'll find out in June.

KG made it out of the first round once in 12 seasons. Was it a risk for the Celtics to trade for him, especially giving up a 20/10 young talent like Al Jefferson? Would you focus on the risks of the Celtics acquiring KG? Or how about Gasol never winning a playoff game in 6 seasons. Was that a risk?



Once again, Risk involves negatives too Jams.

Its like saying you're gonna replace an old manager with a new one because the new one gets more sales but without checking his history, his personality, how well he works with others. Will he be stepping on older employees? Will he talk shit about you, his boss? Will he work well with the startegy your business has. Is it worth the risk?

Like sales, pro sports is a bottom line business. If the new manager increases sales, corporate won't care about his personality or him talking shit. If Shaq were to help Cleveland win a title (not saying he will), Cavs ownership and their fans won't care if he ends up being a team killer.

There are potential negatives. Of course things could not work out. That's where Shaq's contract being an expiring one offsets any of those negatives. If it doesn't work, he comes off the books after the year.



The other risk is making Bron unhappy and seeing him walk next season.
If Shaq is anything like his last seasons in Miami or LA, then he CAN make a team implode. At that point, how do you retain Bron?

This is a fair point. But, only if you could foreseeably and reasonably prove that if they don't make the trade that LeBron stays anyway. So if the Cavs stood pat, is LeBron not also unhappy if they don't win and still walks next season? The trade is an effort to try to not allow that happen. In Shaq's first seasons with LA and Miami, Shaq didn't make the teams implode.



Fine you guys win. No risk..since there is no risk and Shaq fails, its ok for James to become a free agent and leave the Cavs. No risk.

If the Cavs don't make the trade, LeBron can still become a free agent and leave the Cavs. That's not a risk the Shaq trade brought. It was there already.

You want a compromise? Fine. There are negatives to adding Shaq that you can call "risks" in terms of possible bad chemistry and Shaq's personality killing a team. Those are low risks because of what the Cavs had to do to make the trade happen. They didn't give up anything of value to get Shaq. And, if it doesn't work out and those negatives things do happen, Shaq's deal is expiring. Change "no risk" to "very low risk." Now, if you still don't agree with that, there's no arguing with you.

[JoeTait75]

Until he re-signs, there will always be a risk that LeBron leaves Cleveland. You can mitigate that risk as best you can, but it's going to be there until he signs on the line which is dotted.

[Spur-Addict]

Who said they wont make a move. This is about putting all your eggs on Shaq. Dont tell me there isnt any other moves to make out there, if there isnt, its time to get a new GM?

Depends on what you're looking for. It's hard to find a serious post presence, while only giving up Ben Wallace and Sasha P. for him. Not to mention Shaq is coming off a really good year.

Are you saying this is the only move the Cavs will make this off season? Where did you get this info from?

[ElNono]

Based upon history, Shaq has had much success with players like James, (Penny, Kobe, Wade.)

Yeah, but you forget he also had coaches that knew how to motivate him, namely Phil Jackson and Pat Riley (through a ridiculous $100 million contract).
Cleveland doesn't have that at all.

[Spur-Addict]

If they lose next year without Shaq, this is still a possibility. With their team constructed as of last year, they couldn't get out of the Eastern Conference. Try again.


Until he re-signs, there will always be a risk that LeBron leaves Cleveland. You can mitigate that risk as best you can, but it's going to be there until he signs on the line which is dotted.

[Allanon]

KG made it out of the first round once in 12 seasons. Was it a risk for the Celtics to trade for him, especially giving up a 20/10 young talent like Al Jefferson? Would you focus on the risks of the Celtics acquiring KG? Or how about Gasol never winning a playoff game in 6 seasons. Was that a risk?


Neither KG nor Gasol had a history of being a team cancer. Shaq's 4 for 4 in sending a team to the lotto.

Cavs have put all their hopes into LeBron and a 37 year old team killer who is getting paid $20 million.

[ElNono]

considering they would only have money for 2 stars I can't imagine it would be better than what the Cavs have. Cavs can offer 1 max deal, Knicks can offer 2. You fail again

If you tell the Knicks they have a fair shot at landing Bron, they'll be more than willing to go way over the salary cap. Don't underestimate a big market needing a rebound.

[TheMACHINE]

Depends on what you're looking for. It's hard to find a serious post presence, while only giving up Ben Wallace and Sasha P. for him. Not to mention Shaq is coming off a really good year.

Are you saying this is the only move the Cavs will make this off season? Where did you get this info from?

yah...trading your biggest "trade" assets makes it even more likely that more valuble trades or on the works. :lol

[TheMACHINE]

You want a compromise? Fine. There are negatives to adding Shaq that you can call "risks" in terms of possible bad chemistry and Shaq's personality killing a team. Those are low risks because of what the Cavs had to do to make the trade happen. They didn't give up anything of value to get Shaq. And, if it doesn't work out and those negatives things do happen, Shaq's deal is expiring. Change "no risk" to "very low risk." Now, if you still don't agree with that, there's no arguing with you.

Fine...we'll stop arguing...so im safe to say, in your point of view, Shaq is the only guy Cavs can get. IN that case, i guess its worth risking implosion and Lebron leaving since there is no other guy in the NBA that meets the Cavs needs.

[Allanon]

Until he re-signs, there will always be a risk that LeBron leaves Cleveland. You can mitigate that risk as best you can, but it's going to be there until he signs on the line which is dotted.

I don't know if you posted earlier in this thread, I came late. I have a question for you and any other Cavs fan.

Are you happy with this trade, JoeTait?

[Thunder Dan]

If you tell the Knicks they have a fair shot at landing Bron, they'll be more than willing to go way over the salary cap. Don't underestimate a big market needing a rebound.

you are not allowed to sign players over the cap. Thats the whole point in the cap. You can acquire players via trade, but you can't sign them. You can go over the cap to sign a player you already have like the Cavs can with Lebron, but you can't go over the cap to sign a player you don't have. He would need to be traded to your team in order to take on a contract that takes you over the cap.

[Cry Havoc]

Wow, this thread is proof enough why Lakers fans are insanely ego-centric and have no ability to actually have rational discourse on an issue.

"ZOMG RISK RISK RISK!"

>> What risk?

"ZOMG RISK RISK RISK!"

:lol

You guys are all giving yourselves bad names by completely ignoring the points other posters are making. It's absolute insanity, and the number of Lakers fans involved in this debate is comical. Jamstone has completely destroyed this thread. :lol I can't even fathom how Lakers fans can expect to be taken seriously with threads like this.

[JoeTait75]

Are you happy with this trade, JoeTait?

I'm in 100 percent wait-and-see mode, Allanon. As a Cleveland fan, I know not to bust a nut about anything until the results are in. They still need to make some more moves.

[stretch]

Neither KG nor Gasol had a history of being a team cancer. Shaq's 4 for 4 in sending a team to the lotto.

Cavs have put all their hopes into LeBron and a 37 year old team killer who is getting paid $20 million.

LMAO what a crock of shit

he got 3 of the 4 teams he was on to the finals

other than Phoenix, who was doomed already for playing in such a good conference, they all went to the lotto AFTER he left

do us all a favor and burn and die

[ginobili's bald spot]

You guys are all giving yourselves bad names by completely ignoring the points other posters are making. It's absolute insanity, and the number of Lakers fans involved in this debate is comical. Jamstone has completely destroyed this thread. :lol I can't even fathom how Lakers fans can expect to be taken seriously with threads like this.


Not all Laker fans.

[Allanon]

I'm in 100 percent wait-and-see mode, Allanon. As a Cleveland fan, I know not to bust a nut about anything until the results are in. They still need to make some more moves.

I think your opinions are pretty fair.

If I'm reading it right, that's not really a vote of confidence; almost blase. :lol

[Spur-Addict]

yah...trading your biggest "trade" assets makes it even more likely that more valuble trades or on the works. :lol

Good job on answering the question. You are backing off from your absolute claim.

And what does more valuable have to do with this? A trade is a trade, period. You are saying that all eggs are in one basket. Another trade despite it not being huge is another move, with additional eggs.

And, something big can still happen despite contracts etc.

[JoeTait75]

If I'm reading it right, that's not really a vote of confidence; almost blase. :lol

I'm agnostic on it, let's just put it that way. After the way the season ended for the Cavaliers, it's a little too early to get excited over anything they do just yet.

[Allanon]

LMAO what a crock of shit

he got 3 of the 4 teams he was on to the finals

other than Phoenix, who was doomed already for playing in such a good conference, they all went to the lotto AFTER he left

do us all a favor and burn and die

Hahah, what a dumbfuck. Last time he was in the Finals was 3 years ago when he was 34 years old and raped your Beloved Mavs.

Wake the fuck up, Shaq's 37 and sent the Suns to the lotto.

Do us all a favor and kill yourself.

[TheMACHINE]

Do us all a favor and kill yourself.

He's a Mavs fans...if he hasnt killed himself yet, he never will. He lives everyday in Fail.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

with a 2 time mvp and all stars by his side.


Listen here you stupid bandwagon Laker fan gook that knows nothing about basketball, Shaq wasn't the reason the Suns were in the lottery. Don't tell me he was, I watched almost every game this year and follow it extremely closely.

[Thunder Dan]

Hahah, what a dumbfuck. Last time he was in the Finals was 3 years ago when he was 34 years old and raped your Beloved Mavs.

Wake the fuck up, Shaq's 37 and sent the Suns to the lotto.

Do us all a favor and kill yourself.

So the Suns firing 2 coaches in midst of an identity crisis and 2 of their best players missing significant time had nothing to do with the Suns being in the lottery? It was all Shaq?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Do us all a favor and kill yourself.


You do the same.

[JamStone]

Fine...we'll stop arguing...so im safe to say, in your point of view, Shaq is the only guy Cavs can get. IN that case, i guess its worth risking implosion and Lebron leaving since there is no other guy in the NBA that meets the Cavs needs.

Talks on this trade started in February. Needless to say, it would seem pretty obvious that the Cavs explored and even exhausted alternative trade proposals to make a deal better than this one. So, yes, because it took over four months for the Cavs to actually sign onto this deal, I do believe this was the best deal they felt they could make.

Apparently, there are no other Cavalier "friendlies" on other NBA teams willing to give the Cavs Chris Bosh or Chris Paul type players for expiring contracts and a second round draft pick. Go figure.

[Thunder Dan]

Listen here you stupid bandwagon Laker fan gook that knows nothing about basketball, Shaq wasn't the reason the Suns were in the lottery. Don't tell me he was, I watched almost every game this year and follow it extremely closely.

Laker fans talk about how Nash sucks and is a fraud MVP one month, the next they speak of him in the highest regards referring to him as MVP

[TheMACHINE]

Listen here you stupid bandwagon Laker fan gook that knows nothing about basketball, Shaq wasn't the reason the Suns were in the lottery. Don't tell me he was, I watched almost every game this year and follow it extremely closely.

right...Once Shaq got to the Suns, the Suns stayed on top and won the championship!

:toast

[stretch]

Hahah, what a dumbfuck. Last time he was in the Finals was 3 years ago when he was 34 years old and raped your Beloved Mavs.

Wake the fuck up, Shaq's 37 and sent the Suns to the lotto.

Do us all a favor and kill yourself.

shaq sent the suns to the lotto? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

im most certainly sure it didnt have anything to do with the fact that they played in a very stong conference, had a horrible coach, were poorly built and aging, and their system made no sense. oh no, it was SHAQ who made all those things happen

and i hate shaq

[Allanon]

So the Suns firing 2 coaches in midst of an identity crisis and 2 of their best players missing significant time had nothing to do with the Suns being in the lottery? It was all Shaq?

None of it was on Shaq, all of it was on team chemistry.

Phoenix had terrible team chemistry. As did the 2007 Heat, 2004 Lakers and the Shaq Magic.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

right...Once Shaq got to the Suns, the Suns stayed on top and won the championship!

:toast


The Suns were done before they got Shaq, you don't know anything about the situation stop acting like you do. I don't tell you about the Lakers post Gasol trade (when you became a fan) don't tell me about the Suns.

[Thunder Dan]

shaq sent the suns to the lotto? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

im most certainly sure it didnt have anything to do with the fact that they played in a very stong conference, had a horrible coach, were poorly built and aging, and their system made no sense. oh no, it was SHAQ who made all those things happen

and i hate shaq

it certainly wasn't Nash and Amare missing a large portion of the season that had anything to do with it

[Thunder Dan]

None of it was on Shaq, all of it was on team chemistry.

Phoenix had terrible team chemistry. As did the 2007 Heat, 2004 Lakers and the Shaq Magic.

I didn't know chemistry detached retinas or hurt backs.


Shaq was traded into a situation with an identity crisis with a new GM, the Cavs don't have that problem.

[Allanon]

"I love playing for this coach and I love playing with these guys," said O'Neal yesterday. "We have professionals who know what to do. No one is asking me to play with Chris Quinn or Ricky Davis. I'm actually on a team again."

Shaq O' Neal on being traded to the Suns.

[stretch]

Laker fans talk about how Nash sucks and is a fraud MVP one month, the next they speak of him in the highest regards referring to him as MVP

and thats why people the lakers and most of their fans. because most of them are bandwagonning morons that have no idea what they are talking about, then just say "we have more rings than you do, bitch!!! i lick balls, LOL!"

unfortunately it seems most of them found their way to this board...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It certainly had nothing to do with Nash ball hogging and becoming a cancer.....or it had nothing to do with Amare deciding he didn't have to rebound 20 games into the season....yup, it all had to do with the 3rd all NBA center on the team.

[Allanon]

I didn't know chemistry detached retinas or hurt backs.


Shaq was traded into a situation with an identity crisis with a new GM, the Cavs don't have that problem.

Are you happy with this trade Thunder Dan?

[TheMACHINE]

The Suns were done before they got Shaq, you don't know anything about the situation stop acting like you do. I don't tell you about the Lakers post Gasol trade (when you became a fan) don't tell me about the Suns.

Yes DuncanOwnsKobe (and youre calling me a bandwagon fan lol)...You are right! Yah the Suns we're done..Top of the West...oh noes...horrible...How dare they take be at the #1 seed. I think its time to change things up by adding Shaq.

:toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Laker fans talk about how Nash sucks and is a fraud MVP one month, the next they speak of him in the highest regards referring to him as MVP


Exactly. They talk about Nash in whichever way it will suit their argument.

[Thunder Dan]

Are you happy with this trade Thunder Dan?

Sasha doesn't even play, so take him out. Shaq is an upgrade over Wallace... what is not to like? Shaq knows the situation coming in, he didn't have problems with Wade, there is no reason you can assume he has problems here

[TheMACHINE]

Exactly. They talk about Nash in whichever way it will suit their argument.

so Nash isnt a MVP in your eyes?

[Allanon]

Laker fans talk about how Nash sucks and is a fraud MVP one month.

I have never said this.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yes DuncanOwnsKobe (and youre calling me a bandwagon fan lol)...You are right! Yah the Suns we're done..Top of the West...oh noes...horrible...How dare they take be at the #1 seed. I think its time to change things up by adding Shaq.

:toast


Their record against the top 8 teams in the west at the time of the trade was 4-12.

Again, if you followed the team closely that season, you would know that team had no chance at winning a championship prior to the Shaq trade and their record was fool's gold, nothing more than the product of a weak schedule.

[Allanon]

Sasha doesn't even play, so take him out. Shaq is an upgrade over Wallace... what is not to like? Shaq knows the situation coming in, he didn't have problems with Wade, there is no reason you can assume he has problems here

Sure, I can see getting rid of guys but are you "happy" with the trade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

so Nash isnt a MVP in your eyes?


What Nash did in 2006 has nothing to do with 2009. He was anything but an MVP last year. Tell me how Nash's 2 MVPs have anything to do with last season?

[Thunder Dan]

I could see people questioning the move if they gave up West or even Hickson or their first round pick....but they gave up a guy who wants to retire and a guy who sat on the bench all year for a Hall of Famer

[JamStone]

Neither KG nor Gasol had a history of being a team cancer. Shaq's 4 for 4 in sending a team to the lotto.

Cavs have put all their hopes into LeBron and a 37 year old team killer who is getting paid $20 million.

Shaq's 3 for 4 in getting a team to the NBA Finals. And he's 4 for 6 when he gets to the NBA Finals. You play the odds of getting to the NBA Finals and having a good chance at winning it all even if it means soon after the team goes to the lottery.

Cavs put all their hopes into LeBron. The trade for Shaq is to show LeBron they are willing to do anything to try to win a championship and keep him around. The $20 million salary means very little because it's for one year and will come off the books and once again open up enough cap space to give LeBron the max and possibly another player the max or close to it.

There's a good chance that things don't work out for Cavs and the Shaq. I'm not trying to argue it guarantees anything. It doesn't guarantee a title or even an NBA Finals appearance. But, it doesn't guarantee a team implosion either. The bottom line is that the Cavs gave up next to nothing to get Shaq in the hopes that it does help them get that chance to a title. So if they give up next to nothing to get him, all those other little "risks" are worth it because they didn't give up anything of significant value for that chance. They didn't give up any young talent. They didn't compromise 2010 cap space. They didn't even give up a first round draft pick. They have waited four months to make the deal because they tried to find a better trade, so they didn't sacrifice what they feel would have been a better trade.

[TheMACHINE]

Their record against the top 8 teams in the west at the time of the trade was 4-12.

Again, if you followed the team closely that season, you would know that team had no chance at winning a championship prior to the Shaq trade and their record was fool's gold, nothing more than the product of a weak schedule.

IMPLOSION!

:toast

[Cry Havoc]

:lol

So now the consensus is that Shaq is the reason the Suns sucked? Because they were so dominant defensively before his arrival?

I HATE Shaq but this is just insanity.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

IMPLOSION!

:toast


Explain how a team with a 4-12 record against the other top teams in the west is a contender......or admit that post just owned your retarded ass ignornant, "best record at the time of the trade!!!!" argument.

[Thunder Dan]

Sure, I can see getting rid of guys but are you "happy" with the trade.

hell yeah. For a one year solution you can't get better than Shaq. Shaq for a year then go after bosh

[TheMACHINE]

Explain how a team with a 4-12 record against the other top teams in the west is a contender......or admit that post just owned your retarded ass ignornant, "best record at the time of the trade!!!!" argument.

We're the suns not the best record at the time?

BTW, how was Clevelands record against top teams last year? You dont have to give me exact numbers...just tell me if the Cavs played good, bad or great against the top teams?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

Cleveland got to keep the 46th pick, Kerr is such a puss :bang

[Allanon]

Shaq's 3 for 4 in getting a team to the NBA Finals. And he's 4 for 6 when he gets to the NBA Finals. You play the odds of getting to the NBA Finals and having a good chance at winning it all even if it means soon after the team goes to the lottery.

I can understand playing those odds for a <35 year old Center. But at age 38, I don't see a dominating force in the Playoffs. He's on the downturn. Year before, he got booted out of the first round by the Spurs, then this year, he was in the lotto. His stats are down. The Suns went down. D'Antoni went down. Everything about him is going down except his $20 million price.



They didn't give up any young talent. They didn't compromise 2010 cap space. They didn't even give up a first round draft pick. They have waited four months to make the deal because they tried to find a better trade, so they didn't sacrifice what they feel would have been a better trade.

The Cavs waited to make the trade because they thought they already had a Championship team. Heck, they won 66 games?

They're barely a month out of the Playoffs and they've already jumped the gun on a bandage move. Who knows how many deals they'll miss out on.

We'll see how this plays out in June and LeBron's free agency but don't say I didn't tell you guys a year in advance.

PS. Let's book a Mike Brown firing in as well. No coach has survived Shaq either.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

We're the suns not the best record at the time?

BTW, how was Clevelands record against top teams last year? You dont have to give me exact numbers...just tell me if the Cavs played good, bad or great against the top teams?


And I'm saying their best record was overplayed, it was misleading as fuck and was the product of a weak schedule. Look at their schedule on basketball reference if you don't believe me. If they were a contender, they shouldn't have even had 10 losses at the time of that trade given their weak schedule.

And in response to that Cleveland question, yes, Cleveland did suck against good teams this year, and last I checked they fell short of the finals.

[ElNono]

you are not allowed to sign players over the cap. Thats the whole point in the cap. You can acquire players via trade, but you can't sign them. You can go over the cap to sign a player you already have like the Cavs can with Lebron, but you can't go over the cap to sign a player you don't have. He would need to be traded to your team in order to take on a contract that takes you over the cap.

I understand how the system works. And they can trade their entire roster if they wish, taking on bad contract of talented players in the process. But they won't do that unless they can get somebody like Bron.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He should have demanded the Cavs 2011 first round pick. That could be a high lottery pick.


This is Steve Kerr we're talking about.

[ElNono]

hell yeah. For a one year solution you can't get better than Shaq. Shaq for a year then go after bosh

Sounds like Suns fans last year. It's like deja vu all over again.

[TheMACHINE]

And I'm saying their best record was overplayed, it was misleading as fuck and was the product of a weak schedule. Look at their schedule on basketball reference if you don't believe me. If they were a contender, they shouldn't have even had 10 losses at the time of that trade given their weak schedule.

And in response to that Cleveland question, yes, Cleveland did suck against good teams this year, and last I checked they fell short of the finals.

So Cleveland is doing the same strategy as the Suns. "We're on top and fell short, but we suck against good teams, maybe Shaq can help us out". Who knows, maybe an older slower Shaq can do some good to the Cavs.

FUTURE IMPLOSION! :toast

[Thunder Dan]

I understand how the system works. And they can trade their entire roster if they wish, taking on bad contract of talented players in the process. But they won't do that unless they can get somebody like Bron.

how is that any different, or better than what the Cavs can do?

[Allanon]

hell yeah. For a one year solution you can't get better than Shaq. Shaq for a year then go after bosh

Thanks for the answer, I was curious on what Cavs fans thought.

[TheMACHINE]

Sounds like Suns fans last year. It's like deja vu all over again.

its so simlar, its scary.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So Cleveland is doing the same strategy as the Suns. "We're on top and fell short, but we suck against good teams, maybe Shaq can help us out". Who knows, maybe an older slower Shaq can do some good to the Cavs.

FUTURE IMPLOSION! :toast


That's got nothing to do with what I was saying.

[ElNono]

how is that any different, or better than what the Cavs can do?

That the Cavs have Lebron right now and have not been doing that. Unless you think trading for Ben Wallace and his horrendous contract was a good move.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sounds like Suns fans last year. It's like deja vu all over again.


If the Suns got Shaq for nothing and got to keep Marion, they would have won it all in all in 2008.

[stretch]

quit comparing cleveland to the suns you morons

two COMPLETELY different teams and styles

shaq fits in a half court style (which cleveland plays)

shaq doesnt fit in a :07 or less style (which phoenix plays)

[Allanon]

That the Cavs have Lebron right now and have not been doing that. Unless you think trading for Ben Wallace and his horrendous contract was a good move.

Yup, that was the other bandage trade I was referring to. Ferry's been trying to be like Pop and retool on the fly with bandages to fix holes.

However, Ferry's bandages have been terrible. Wally Szerbiak? Ben Wallace?

Shaq suckered the Suns and now he's suckered in the Cavs.

[Cry Havoc]

Yup, that was the other bandage trade I was referring to. Ferry's been trying to be like Pop and retool on the fly with bandages to fix holes.

However, Ferry's bandages have been terrible. Wally Szerbiak? Ben Wallace?

Do you think the trade for RJ was a bad one for the Spurs to make, too?

[ginobili's bald spot]

This needs to stop.

[Allanon]

Do you think the trade for RJ was a bad one for the Spurs to make, too?

Hell no, that was a great trade...for the Spurs.

[ElNono]

If the Suns got Shaq for nothing and got to keep Marion, they would have won it all in all in 2008.

Not really. Marion and his fragile ego would have imploded when D'Antoni was fired and he would have had to post Shaq every other possession. Phoenix did good in moving Marion.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not really. Marion and his fragile ego would have imploded when D'Antoni was fired and he would have had to post Shaq every other possession. Phoenix did good in moving Marion.


Fortunately D'antoni wasn't fired till after the 2008 season. Maybe they wouldn't have won it all but they get by the Spurs if they have Marion to help defend the pick and roll.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This needs to stop.


What?

[ElNono]

Fortunately D'antoni wasn't fired till after the 2008 season. Maybe they wouldn't have won it all but they get by the Spurs if they have Marion to help defend the pick and roll.

Are you like some Mavs fans and their 'moral' 2006 championship? Just curious.

[TheMACHINE]

Wait a second...did ESPN just say that the Cavs got Shaq to stop the "Pick and Roll" of Orlando?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Are you like some Mavs fans and their 'moral' 2006 championship? Just curious.


No not at all, that wasn't the point of my post. The point was you can't compare the two trades. The Suns traded one of their most important players for Shaq, Cleveland traded nothing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wait a second...did ESPN just say that the Cavs got Shaq to stop the "Pick and Roll" of Orlando?


I'll even laugh if they did.

[Allanon]

Wait a second...did ESPN just say that the Cavs got Shaq to stop the "Pick and Roll" of Orlando?

:lmao

[Thunder Dan]

That the Cavs have Lebron right now and have not been doing that. Unless you think trading for Ben Wallace and his horrendous contract was a good move.

they have one of the highest payrolls in the league, well over the cap. Ben Wallace was taking on a bad contract like you said the Knicks would do. Try again, this is fun

[ginobili's bald spot]

What?

These ridiculous arguments about this being a bad trade for Cleveland. It's embarrassing. I call Spurs fans out when they rationalize and make insecure posts and that's exactly what lakerfan is doing in this thread. This is obviously a low risk high reward trade for the Cavs. There is nothing to debate.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

These ridiculous arguments about this being a bad trade for Cleveland. It's embarrassing. I call Spurs fans out when they rationalize and make insecure posts and that's exactly what lakerfan is doing in this thread. This is obviously a low risk high reward trade for the Cavs. There is nothing to debate.


:tu

[Allanon]

These ridiculous arguments about this being a bad trade for Cleveland. It's embarrassing. I call Spurs fans out when they rationalize and make insecure posts and that's exactly what lakerfan is doing in this thread. This is obviously a low risk high reward trade for the Cavs. There is nothing to debate.

First off, I'm not a Shaq hater, I'd love to have Shaq back for old time's sake. Veteran Minimum and backup to Bynum.

Shaq, at age 37, doesn't belong ANYWHERE at $20 million and as a #2 guy.

[dirk4mvp]

Laker fans are hilarious. Hating on a player who brought your team 3 titles :lol

[dirk4mvp]

Are you like some Mavs fans and their 'moral' 2006 championship? Just curious.

gtfo. That's 1 of us. And even then he's like the bastard stepchild.

[DeadlyDynasty]

These ridiculous arguments about this being a bad trade for Cleveland. It's embarrassing. I call Spurs fans out when they rationalize and make insecure posts and that's exactly what lakerfan is doing in this thread. This is obviously a low risk high reward trade for the Cavs. There is nothing to debate.

agreed...it's a one-and-done deal

[JamStone]

I can understand playing those odds for a <35 year old Center. But at age 38, I don't see a dominating force in the Playoffs. He's on the downturn. Year before, he got booted out of the first round by the Spurs, then this year, he was in the lotto. His stats are down. The Suns went down. D'Antoni went down. Everything about him is going down except his $20 million price.

Shaq's 37 years old. Still old, but let's get his age right. Shaq doesn't have to dominate anymore. That's not what the Cavs are looking from him. The Cavs have LeBron and have another solid scorer in Mo Williams. They need Shaq to provide an inside presence on offense. He can still do that. No, he's not as dominant as he was even a few years ago, but he's still effective.

Last year, he averaged 18 ppg, 8 rpg on 61% FG shooting in 30 mpg. And, that's with playing with another high scoring big man next to him.

Shaq is obviously on the decline of his career, but that doesn't mean he can't help a team. And, once again, it goes back to what the Cavs had to give up to get him... expiring contracts and a second round pick (unless like DoK said, they didn't even give that up) and cash.

And stop mentioning the $20 million salary. It's for one year. Then he's off the books. That's actually part of the appeal since he'll get off the books after the season which will once again clear up a shitload of cap space for next summer.




The Cavs waited to make the trade because they thought they already had a Championship team. Heck, they won 66 games?

They're barely a month out of the Playoffs and they've already jumped the gun on a bandage move. Who knows how many deals they'll miss out on.

They won 66 games and they just traded for Shaq without giving up any key pieces, young talent, any valuable draft picks, and without compromising the 2010 cap space. How is that a bad thing? Sure, you can call it a bandage move. It's a good bandage move because it carries so little risk. Trying to discredit a trade based on deals they could "miss out on" is ridiculous. What better trade could Ben Wallace's expiring contract and Sasha Pavlovic really bring? Once again, you're trying to discredit the move by reaching for silly suggestions.



We'll see how this plays out in June and LeBron's free agency but don't say I didn't tell you guys a year in advance.

PS. Let's book a Mike Brown firing in as well. No coach has survived Shaq either.

Psssst. If the Cavs didn't make the Shaq trade, LeBron still could leave in free agency next summer. Not sure if you knew that or not. We'll just keep that between you and me.

P.S. Phil Jackson coached Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Shaq, at age 37, doesn't belong ANYWHERE at $20 million and as a #2 guy.


But that's not the point.....bottom line is Shaq at $20 million is better than ben Wallace at 14 million.

[Cry Havoc]

Shaq's 37 years old. Still old, but let's get his age right. Shaq doesn't have to dominate anymore. That's not what the Cavs are looking from him. The Cavs have LeBron and have another solid scorer in Mo Williams. They need Shaq to provide an inside presence on offense. He can still do that. No, he's not as dominant as he was even a few years ago, but he's still effective.

Last year, he averaged 18 ppg, 8 rpg on 61% FG shooting in 30 mpg. And, that's with playing with another high scoring big man next to him.

Shaq is obviously on the decline of his career, but that doesn't mean he can't help a team. And, once again, it goes back to what the Cavs had to give up to get him... expiring contracts and a second round pick (unless like DoK said, they didn't even give that up) and cash.





They won 66 games and they just traded for Shaq without giving up any key pieces, young talent, any valuable draft picks, and without compromising the 2010 cap space. How is that a bad thing? Sure, you can call it a bandage move. It's a good bandage move because it carries so little risk. Trying to discredit a trade based on deals they could "miss out on" is ridiculous. What better trade could Ben Wallace's expiring contract and Sasha Pavlovic really bring? Once again, you're trying to discredit the move by reaching for silly suggestions.




Psssst. If the Cavs didn't make the Shaq trade, LeBron still could leave in free agency next summer. Not sure if you knew that or not. We'll just keep that between you and me.

P.S. Phil Jackson coached Shaq.

/thread

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I would love for Wallace to denounce his retirement and force the Suns to pay him the full tilt.


He hasn't done anything yet.....and I hope this is true.


This is a rumor I don't believe at all but supposedly the Suns did this knowing they were going to trade Wallace for Chandler. I'm not holding my breath.

[Allanon]

Shaq's 37 years old. Still old, but let's get his age right.

I had it right in the first place, Shaq will be 38 in the Playoffs, as I had it correctly.



Shaq doesn't have to dominate anymore. That's not what the Cavs are looking from him. The Cavs have LeBron and have another solid scorer in Mo Williams. They need Shaq to provide an inside presence on offense. He can still do that. No, he's not as dominant as he was even a few years ago, but he's still effective.

For $20 million, he should be dominating, why else would you willingly pay $20 million?



Last year, he averaged 18 ppg, 8 rpg on 61% FG shooting in 30 mpg. And, that's with playing with another high scoring big man next to him.

He was 36 years old while doing the bulk of that. After he turned 37, he dropped even lower to 15 ppg and still at a high percentage. Shaq's stats are dropping and this is just the beginning.

What's Shaq going to average this year? 14 points?

Marc Gasol at $3 million a year put up 12 points and 7 rebounds in 30 minutes on 51% shooting. Marc Gasol will provide better production than Shaq this year for $17 million less. I don't see how paying $20 million to Shaq is a good thing.



Shaq is obviously on the decline of his career, but that doesn't mean he can't help a team. And, once again, it goes back to what the Cavs had to give up to get him... expiring contracts and a second round pick (unless like DoK said, they didn't even give that up) and cash.

Cavs gave up $20 million in salary that could have gone to a real player. Ferry just did an All or Nothing move.



They won 66 games and they just traded for Shaq without giving any key pieces. How is that a bad thing? Sure, you can call it a bandage move. It's a good bandage move because it carries so little risk. Trying to discredit a trade based on deals they could "miss out on" is ridiculous. What better trade could Ben Wallace's expiring contract and Sasha Pavlovic really bring? Once again, you're trying to discredit the move by reaching for silly suggestions.

Spurs just got Richard Jefferson for Kurt Thomas and Bruce Bowen. Nope, that wasn't a misprint. Kurt Fricken Thomas and old Man Bowen for 20PPG Richard Jefferson. Sure, that was a "silly" suggestion. :lol



Psssst. If the Cavs didn't make the Shaq trade, LeBron still could leave in free agency next summer. Not sure if you knew that or not. We'll just keep that between you and me.
Psssst. The Cavs could have made a better long term trade or waited. There wasn't any clamoring for Shaq's services. Cavs could have waited for a better deal to come along.

It's one thing for LeBron to leave, but it's another thing to make LONG TERM moves that will help keep him. Bandages suck. But let's just keep that between you and me.



P.S. Phil Jackson coached Shaq.
P.S. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004. Phil Jackson left the Lakers in 2004.

[JoeTait75]

Psssst. The Cavs could have made a better long term trade or waited. There wasn't any clamoring for Shaq's services. Cavs could have waited for a better deal to come along.

Like what? As far as I know the only other deal they could have made was for Tyson Chandler, and that move carries a certain amount of risk too, with his injury situation. They can only do so much with the assets they have. Without premium draft picks or young talent, they don't have that many options.

[Allanon]

Like what? As far as I know the only other deal they could have made was for Tyson Chandler, and that move carries a certain amount of risk too, with his injury situation. They can only do so much with the assets they have. Without premium draft picks or young talent, they don't have that many options.

The Spurs just got Richard Jefferson for their trash. There are deals out there.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Shaq > Richard Jefferson

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I will tear up the East, all we have there is Dwight Howard and Al Horford, and I TEAR APART Dwight every time we match up and takes him to school, even now.

[Fpoonsie]

Howard: Cavs Got Shaq To Try And Stop Me

Dwight Howard was flattered by the Cavaliers acquisition of Shaquille O'Neal.

"Looks like Cleveland just traded for big Shaq in order to try and stop me next season," wrote Howard. "It’s good to see that the Magic are on the minds of some other teams now instead of it being the other way around. Maybe now after getting to the Finals the little ol’ Magic won’t be overlooked as much anymore.

"Those kinds of trades like the one Cleveland made just lets us know that we have to be better next season. Those teams are gunning for us and trying to get better, so we’ve got to do the same thing."

link (http://www.dwighthoward.com/blog/2009/06/25/we%E2%80%99re-in-teams-heads-now/)

[Allanon]

Shaq > Richard Jefferson

Not at age 38.

RJ's gonna get the Spurs to the WCF.

If this is the only Cavs move, they'll be out of the Playoffs the minute they face the Celtics or the Magic. And if Shaq starts whining, they're not even going to make the Playoffs.

[Bukefal]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/macedoniadaily/shaqcavs.png

[Thunder Dan]

do you guys think the Christmas day game will be Cavs vs. Lakers?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I got Cavs winning 74 games next year

[Allanon]

But that's not the point.....bottom line is Shaq at $20 million is better than ben Wallace at 14 million.

For $20 million, they could have gotten Richard Jefferson ($13 million) and Ben Gordon ($7 million).

I'd take Jefferson and Gordon for Shaq any day.

[Indazone]

Guess this means Yao stays in Houston. So much for Thunderdan :lol

[Thunder Dan]

Guess this means Yao stays in Houston. So much for Thunderdan :lol

you mean thank god for thunderdan

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

For $20 million, they could have gotten Richard Jefferson ($13 million) and Ben Gordon ($7 million).

I'd take Jefferson and Gordon for Shaq any day.


Explain how Cleveland would get both of those.

[resistanze]

For $20 million, they could have gotten Richard Jefferson ($13 million) and Ben Gordon ($7 million).

I'd take Jefferson and Gordon for Shaq any day.

You're saying they could've traded Pavolic and Wallace for Ben Gordon and Jefferson?

[Thunder Dan]

both Gordon and Jefferson play in their division, you saying the Bulls and Bucks want to help the Cavs out?

[dirk4mvp]

Ben Gordon is the last player the Cavs need.

[Thunder Dan]

For $20 million, they could have gotten Richard Jefferson ($13 million) and Ben Gordon ($7 million).

I'd take Jefferson and Gordon for Shaq any day.

also, where is the need for Jefferson and Gordon on the Cavs? Their needs are: a tall wingman, center, and a PF who can stretch the floor

where does Ben Gordon fit in those?


Laker fans really scraping the bottom here for reasons this is bad...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They already have Ben Gordon....his name is Mo Williams.

[Thunder Dan]

Ben Gordon is basically Delonte West with a better shot and less defense

[Allanon]

Explain how Cleveland would get both of those.

Cleveland could have gotten Jefferson by trading Wally Szerbiak. They still would have had Ben Wallace to offer another team.

[Allanon]

Ben Gordon is basically Delonte West with a better shot and less defense

Ben Gordon is also 3 inches taller...size matters. Delonte's a shooting guard in a PG body. If Delonte was 3 inches taller, the Cavs wouldn't have a problem in the back court.

[Thunder Dan]

Cleveland could have gotten Jefferson by trading Wally Szerbiak. They still would have had Ben Wallace to offer another team.

LMAO, Wally isn't even under contract anymore

[Thunder Dan]

Ben Gordon is also 3 inches taller...size matters. Delonte's a shooting guard in a PG body. If Delonte was 3 inches taller, the Cavs wouldn't have a problem in the back court.

they are both 6'3. Fail

[dirk4mvp]

Ben Gordon is also 3 inches taller

They're the exact same height.


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/delonte_west/index.html


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_gordon/

[JamStone]

I had it right in the first place, Shaq will be 38 in the Playoffs, as I had it correctly.

My mistake. I misread the statement.



For $20 million, he should be dominating, why else would you willingly pay $20 million?

Not for a player on the last year of a contract, an older player close to the end. That's the bonus of the contract expiring. How do you not understand that? There are a lot of players that get paid a lot of money that don't live up to the last year of their contracts. Look at Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury last year. Look at Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady. It happens. And, when you get a player who can still contribute but is being way overpaid, it's fine if his contract is expiring.




He was 36 years old while doing the bulk of that. After he turned 37, he dropped even lower to 15 ppg and still at a high percentage. Shaq's stats are dropping and this is just the beginning.

After turning 37, Shaq played in 21 games for the Suns last year. He averaged 16.6 ppg, 7.4 rpg on 61.2% FG shooting. Yes, his numbers took a dip, especially the last couple weeks when it became evident the Suns were not going to be able to catch that no. 8 playoff seed.

But, you have to consider what Shaq would be replacing. Zydrunas Ilgauskas averaged 10.5 ppg, 7.8 rpg on 44.9 FG% shooting in the playoffs. Which would you rather have? 17/7/60% FG with low post, inside scoring or 11/8/45% FG on mostly midrange jumpers from a 7-foot-3 center?



What's Shaq going to average this year? 14 points?

It's better than 10-12 points a game, and 60% is better than 45%, aren't they?



Marc Gasol at $3 million a year put up 12 points and 7 rebounds in 30 minutes on 51% shooting. Marc Gasol will provide better production than Shaq this year for $17 million less. I don't see how paying $20 million to Shaq is a good thing.

If the Cavaliers could have traded for Marc Gasol for next to nothing, I think they would have. Paying $20 million for Shaq's production isn't a good thing. The fact it's an expiring contract is a good thing.



Cavs gave up $20 million in salary that could have gone to a real player. Ferry just did an All or Nothing move.

Provide evidence that they could have made a better deal for Wallace and Pavlovic and I'll concede the point. The problem is that you can't provide any "real" evidence. It would be merely conjecture.



Spurs just got Richard Jefferson for Kurt Thomas and Bruce Bowen. Nope, that wasn't a misprint. Kurt Fricken Thomas and old Man Bowen for 20PPG Richard Jefferson. Sure, that was a "silly" suggestion. :lol

The Cavaliers don't need Richard Jefferson. They have this young, up and coming player named LeBron James who plays small forward for them. Swing players are easier to acquire than big men. Not every day will a Pau Gasol or KG land in your lap for relatively little.



Psssst. The Cavs could have made a better long term trade or waited. There wasn't any clamoring for Shaq's services. Cavs could have waited for a better deal to come along.

As stated, conjecture. No matter what move the Cavs could have made, there was always and still is the chance he leaves in free agency next summer.



It's one thing for LeBron to leave, but it's another thing to make LONG TERM moves that will help keep him. Bandages suck. But let's just keep that between you and me.

That long term move that will keep him has to be available. Once again, you can't ensure that there was one out there to be had.



P.S. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004. Phil Jackson left the Lakers in 2004.

Phil Jackson wasn't fired. He left and it was his decision. And, he was welcomed back. Would you really like to argue that Phil Jackson didn't "survive Shaq?"

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Now allanon, explain how they could have traded someone who isn't under contract?

[Thunder Dan]

the Cavs could have traded Michael Jordan for Richard Jefferson

[dirk4mvp]

Ben Gordon being 3 inches taller than West can go in the fail quotes that Allanon has made over time.

[Allanon]

LMAO, Wally isn't even under contract anymore

Ah. Never mind Wally. How about Ben Wallace?

[Thunder Dan]

if they were smart, the Cavs should now trade Larry Hughes for T-Mac

[resistanze]

*Waiting for "Here's to fail" gif* :lol

[Allanon]

Incorrect Sir!


Ben Gordon and Delonte are the exact same size at 6'3. Thus, your point is invalid.

You are correct, I thought Ben Gordon was 6'5, although Delonte says he's 6'2.

[Thunder Dan]

Ah. Never mind Wally. How about Ben Wallace?

Why would they need another SF when they already have the best SF in the game?

[dirk4mvp]

You are correct, although Delonte says he's 6'2.

Even if that was the case, where do you get 3 inches taller from? The same place you said Randolph has hit his ceiling from?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

if they were smart, the Cavs should now trade Larry Hughes for T-Mac


After that, Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance in exchange for KG.

[Allanon]

Why would they need another SF when they already have the best SF in the game?

Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?

[Allanon]

Even if that was the case, where do you get 3 inches taller from? The same place you said Randolph has hit his ceiling from?

I was mistaken, I thought Gordon was 6'5. My mistake.

As for Randolph, he's still a roleplayer last I checked.

[Thunder Dan]

Even if that was the case, where do you get 3 inches taller from? The same place you said Randolph has hit his ceiling from?

California is on the metric system

[Thunder Dan]

Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?

for 2 games vs the Magic

[dirk4mvp]

As for Randolph, he's still a roleplayer last I checked.

How old is he?


Oh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Ben Gordon's height is exagerrated, no fuckin way he's a legit 6'3".

[dirk4mvp]

Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?

:lmao

Do you enjoy making yourself look retarded?

[Allanon]

for 2 games vs the Magic

So you're saying the only 2 times LeBron has played Power Forward is in 2 games versus the Magic?

[Allanon]

:lmao

Do you enjoy making yourself look retarded?

Has LeBron played Power Forward, bitch?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao

Do you enjoy making yourself look retarded?


At 19 years old he hit a ceiling of retarded.

[Thunder Dan]

So you're saying the only 2 times LeBron has played Power Forward is in 2 games versus the Magic?

not counting the Olympics the only time he has play more than a couple minutes here and there as a PF was 2 games vs the Magic, yes.

[dirk4mvp]

Has LeBron played Power Forward, bitch?

Kobe played pg in the allstar game one time. Kobe = PG


You've failed pretty hard in this thread.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Randolph was a rookie. Randolph will be a stud in this league.


He's already hit his ceiling at 19.

[Allanon]

Kobe played pg in the allstar game one time. Kobe = PG


You've failed pretty hard in this thread.

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.

The Cleveland Cavaliers love LeBron James playing point power
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=3838671&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3838671)

[dirk4mvp]

ok so far we have . . .

1) This is bad trade for the Cavs

2) Ben Gordon is 3 inches taller than Delonte West

3) LeBron James is a power forward.

[Thunder Dan]

Lebron played PF against the team they are looking to beat and they still lost, you can't get a better assesment of your weaknesses than that. Lebron at the 4 won't work

[Allanon]

ok so far we have . . .

1) This is bad trade for the Cavs

2) Ben Gordon is 3 inches taller than Delonte West

3) LeBron James is a power forward.

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.

The Cleveland Cavaliers love LeBron James playing point Power Forward
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=3838671&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3838671)

[dirk4mvp]

lol Allanon getting mad

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This is almost as bad as when he said this Lakers team has only reached 33% of its potential.

[dirk4mvp]

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.



U mad, brah?

[Allanon]

lol Allanon getting mad

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.

The Cleveland Cavaliers love LeBron James playing point power
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=3838671&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3838671)

[Thunder Dan]

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.

The Cleveland Cavaliers love LeBron James playing point power
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=3838671&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3838671)

Lebron said himself that he doesn't feel comfortable there because he doesn't have the post moves he needs to play down there. Also, the Cavs don't want him playing in the paint for 82 games because they don't want him to receive more contact than he already gets. Fail again.

[Allanon]

U mad, brah?

Not at all, brah, I love it when I prove you wrong, again :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You're a pretty stupid mother fucker as usual, Dirk4MVP and Thunder Dan doesn't know his own team.

The Cleveland Cavaliers love LeBron James playing point power
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=3838671&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d3838671)


wtf does that have to do with you saying Lebron is a power forward?

[dirk4mvp]

Not at all, brah, I love it when I prove you wrong, again :lol

You've failed many times so far ITT. Keep going.

[Thunder Dan]

this is such a great thread

[dirk4mvp]

If you're feeling down, The Temptations are on vh1.

[Allanon]

You've failed many times so far ITT. Keep going.

Yeah, Dirk4MVP, LeBron doesn't play Power Forward. Keep your bullshit coming :lol

[dirk4mvp]

When LeBron retires, this board is gonna be hot with topics like who was the better 4, Duncan or LeBron.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah, Dirk4MVP, LeBron doesn't play Power Forward. Keep your bullshit coming :lol

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

www.failblog.net (http://www.failblog.net)

[Thunder Dan]

Yeah, Dirk4MVP, LeBron doesn't play Power Forward. Keep your bullshit coming :lol

I already said he does from time to time but the Cavs don't want him playing 82 games there. Its the same as how he plays PG every now and again. They need a more long term solution and not just a patch of putting Lebron down there

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When LeBron retires, this board is gonna be hot with topics like who was the better 4, Duncan or LeBron.


Yup seeing that Lebron is primarily a PF.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Lost in the shuffle in all of this, any chances we'll hear Rappin' Shaq speak on the matter at hand? I don't expect him to surface when he's going to get drowned out by the draft coverage, but I hope we'll here his take some time soon.

[Thunder Dan]

When LeBron retires, this board is gonna be hot with topics like who was the better 4, Duncan or LeBron.

Lebron, Malone, Duncan or Hickson

[resistanze]

This thread is money.

[Allanon]

wtf does that have to do with you saying Lebron is a power forward?

Doesn't "LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?"

Thunder Dan says he only played 2 games at PF.

He CAN and DOES.

In fact,



"According to 82games.com, seven of the Cavs' most-used lineups feature LBJ at the 4. And their third most-frequent lineup (Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao) is the team's second most-effective in terms of net points."

[dirk4mvp]

In an honesty, Pippen in the best PF I've ever seen.

[Muser]

Lebron, Malone, Duncan or Hickson



:lmao

[Thunder Dan]

Doesn't "LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?"

Thunder Dan says he only played 2 games at PF.

He CAN and DOES.

In fact,

if you watch the games, like me, you would notice that Wally was the one posting up on the block. Lebron never played a true 4 until the ECF. Wally had probably the best post game on the team and played 4 a bunch. Fail again

[Allanon]

Its called Point Forward.

Turk plays that too, does that mean Turk is a legit PF? Fuck no.

Lebron is not a PF, hes a Point-Forward like Turk is in some situations.

Everybody calls the 4 the POWER FORWARD position,



According to 82games.com, seven of the Cavs' most-used lineups feature LBJ at the 4. And their third most-frequent lineup (Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao) is the team's second most-effective in terms of net points.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

In case you didn't notice everyone but you thinks your Lebron PF comment is retarded.

[JoeTait75]

LeBron does play power forward from time to time. He also plays point guard, shooting guard, small forward, and at times has even lined up at center. He's versatile like that. But it doesn't make him a power forward, any more than Magic playing center in the 1980 Finals made him a center. LeBron is a natural three.

[Allanon]

if you watch the games, like me, you would notice that Wally was the one posting up on the block. Lebron never played a true 4 until the ECF. Wally had probably the best post game on the team and played 4 a bunch. Fail again

Now Wally is the Power Forward? :lol

Read it, it's not just me unless 82games is full of shit:


According to 82games.com, seven of the Cavs' most-used lineups feature LBJ at the 4. And their third most-frequent lineup (Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao) is the team's second most-effective in terms of net points.

This thread is full of WIN :lol

[dirk4mvp]

In case you didn't notice everyone but you thinks your Lebron PF comment is retarded.

I don't know who to believe here, a guy who's hellbent on saying the Shaq trade is bad for the Cavs and that Gordon is 3 inches taller than West, or a guy who actually watched the Cavs and knows his team.

[Muser]

LeBron is a natural 3, but can play any position 1 through 4 naturally, depending on matchups he could play the 5 too.

[Thunder Dan]

Now Wally is the Power Forward? :lol

Read it, it's not just me unless 82games is full of shit:


This thread is full of WIN :lol

Wally played PF a hell of alot more than Lebron ever did last year

[JoeTait75]

Wally played PF a hell of alot more than Lebron ever did last year

Yup.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't know who to believe here, a guy who's hellbent on saying the Shaq trade is bad for the Cavs and that Gordon is 3 inches taller than West, or a guy who actually watched the Cavs and knows his team.


When the first guy says Anthony Randolph has reached his potential at 19, you gotta go with him. He knows his shit.

[Allanon]

In case you didn't notice everyone but you thinks your Lebron PF comment is retarded.

That's OK, DoK, 82games and ESPN agree with me, I'm cool with that.

Thankyou.

[JoeTait75]

LeBron is a natural 3, but can play any position 1 through 4 naturally, depending on matchups he could play the 5 too.

[Indazone]

So does this move put the Cavs over the top? That was the weakness in the playoffs vs the Magic. No big man capable of countering Superman.

Now you have the original Superman vs the New Superman

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wally played PF a hell of alot more than Lebron ever did last year


Allanon knows more about the Cavs than all Cavs fans combined. STFU

[Allanon]

Wally played PF a hell of alot more than Lebron ever did last year

Not according to 82 Games.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

And do you admit you were wrong about him only 2 games at Power Forward?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's OK, DoK, 82games and ESPN agree with me, I'm cool with that.

Thankyou.


did 82games also say Ben Gordon is 3 inches taller than Delonte West?

[Allanon]

did 82games also say Ben Gordon is 3 inches taller than Delonte West?

Nope, but 82 games says LeBron plays the 4 in SEVEN of the most used rotations.

4=Power Forward.

[Thunder Dan]

Did 82game.com suggest trading Wally for Jefferson this summer?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

^:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Did 82games say Anthony Randolph has reached his potential at age 19?

[Allanon]

Did 82game.com suggest trading Wally for Jefferson this summer?

Not at all. 82 Games suggests that LeBron played ALOT more games at the 4 position than just 2 games you said.

Do you admit you were wrong about LeBron playing only 2 games at Power Forward?

[Muser]

So does this move put the Cavs over the top? That was the weakness in the playoffs vs the Magic. No big man capable of countering Superman.

Now you have the original Superman vs the New Superman

It depends what the rest of the east can pull, if the Magic can get a real 4 and move Lewis to the 3 then they're going to be beasty.

Also you have to take into account that Howard will only be getting better, whereas Shaq is on the decline.

[JamStone]

LeBron does play some power forward, in small ball line-ups and against teams that feature those types of line-ups (a combo forward or converted small forward at the PF position) like Orlando or the old Phoenix teams. That doesn't make him a power forward. And it's important to note that while LeBron did play some minutes at PF, not one game in the playoffs did he start at PF, not one regular season game did LeBron start at PF. Darnell Jackson and Lorenzen Wright even started games for the Cavs so LeBron wouldn't start at PF.

Most teams in the NBA now employ small ball line-ups. So, it's good to do the same to match up. But, against the best teams in the league, you don't want LeBron playing PF and having to defend the post against guys like KG or Gasol or Duncan. LeBron is big and strong and athletic, but he doesn't match-up well defensively against the best power forwards in the league and most of the great teams in the league employ a traditional line-up with a true PF and a true C, even if they also use small ball line-ups.

LeBron and Richard Jefferson would be useful against a team like the Orlando Magic last year. But, once they match up against Boston or the Lakers, what do they do?

[Thunder Dan]

Not at all. 82 Games suggests that LeBron played ALOT more games at the 4 position than just 2 games you said.

Do you admit you were wrong about LeBron playing only 2 games at Power Forward?

this applies

kFBDn5PiL00

[Allanon]

LeBron does play some power forward, in small ball line-ups and against teams that feature those types of line-ups (a combo forward or converted small forward at the PF position) like Orlando or the old Phoenix teams. That doesn't make him a power forward.

I asked a simple question "Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?" The answer was yes, in "only 2 games verus the Magic"
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

Alot of Small Ball in the East. LeBron with RJ would work.

But the point is the Cavs could have gotten alot more with $20 million than just Shaq. Spurs got Richard Jefferson for trash and only spent $13 million in salary.

[Thunder Dan]

I asked a simple question "Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?" The answer was yes, in only 2 games.

Alot of Small Ball in the East. LeBron with RJ would work.

But the point is the Cavs could have gotten alot more with $20 million than just Shaq.

it's not a longer term solution to have Lebron playing PF

[Allanon]

this applies

kFBDn5PiL00

You know, you're disappointing like your boy Dirk4MVP. You'd rather be stupid than admit you're wrong. People thought you were just a troll but I didn't...now I see why they said it.

Enjoy talking with yourself.

[Muser]

So if the Cavs trade for Jefferson and Gordon they have.

Mo
Gordon
Jefferson
James
Z?

That team would get skullfucked by any team with decent bigs.

[Thunder Dan]

You know, you're disappointing like your boy Dirk4MVP. You'd rather be stupid than admit you're wrong. People thought you were just a troll but I didn't...now I see why they said it.

Enjoy talking with yourself.

Admit I'm wrong? I watched every minute of every Cavs game and Wally was the PF for a bunch of games, and Lebron was not. Even the other Cavs fan on here agrees with me. Your website is wrong man, I'm sorry to break it to you but sometimes the internet is not always right

[bostonguy]

Great move for the Cavs. I dont see how you can say how this is a bad move for them. They got shaq for nothing. Worse case if Shaq cant stay healthy, his contract ends this summer. Shaq isnt done yet. Now if they can get another guard and move West to backup role, they will be set to join the elite class.

[JamStone]

I asked a simple question "Doesn't LeBron play Power Forward for the Cavs?" The answer was yes, in "only 2 games verus the Magic"
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

Alot of Small Ball in the East. LeBron with RJ would work.

But the point is the Cavs could have gotten alot more with $20 million than just Shaq.

Your question was based on your suggestion that the Cavs could have gotten Richard Jefferson. The way you barked back insults to make your point is the reason why people started flaming you. It's true LeBron has played minutes at PF. That is not enough to support a suggestion that Richard Jefferson would have been a better trade for the Cavaliers, especially since LeBron's best and most natural position is small forward, as it is for RJ.

LeBron and RJ doesn't make them more of a title contender than LeBron and Shaq. RJ might be the better player than Shaq at this point in their respective careers, but he wouldn't solve the Cavs problems either. They would still need help in the front court to match-up against KG and Dwight Howard. The best teams in the league have true centers and elite PFs.

Your point is still predicated on conjecture and an argument you cannot prove.

[Allanon]

So if the Cavs trade for Jefferson and Gordon they have.

Mo
Gordon
Jefferson
James
Z?

That team would get skullfucked by any team with decent bigs.

That team with the Decent Bigs would be the Lakers and the Magic and the Celtics. And the Cavs are still skullfucked against the Lakers and Magic and Celtics with this Shaq trade.

[TampaDude]

I don't know about y'all, but IMHO this takes the Cavs up a BIG notch in the East.

[bostonguy]

I don't know about y'all, but IMHO this takes the Cavs up a BIG notch in the East.

You are a master jinxer Tampa. Any team you hype up is cursed. :lol

[Allanon]

Your question was based on your suggestion that the Cavs could have gotten Richard Jefferson. The way you barked back insults to make your point is the reason why people started flaming you.

Where did I start barking back insults to make my point? I was flamed prior to my making ANY insults, you should know that by now. If you want to act like an asshole, I'll always go along with it, but I don't start it. Never have.



LeBron and RJ doesn't make them more of a title contender than LeBron and Shaq. RJ might be the better player than Shaq at this point in their respective careers, but he wouldn't solve the Cavs problems either. They would still need help in the front court to match-up against KG and Dwight Howard. The best teams in the league have true centers and elite PFs.


That's right RJ wouldn't have made them more of a contender. But the Cavs would have had $7 million left to make another trade for a quality player.

[Chief]

yeah shaq´s slow, im´not sure if ben wallace was equivilent to the speed of sound either, lol

[TampaDude]

You are a master jinxer Tampa. Any team you hype up is cursed. :lol

It's a gift...I know... :lol

[LakeShow]

Shaq will have to take back the "Kobe is better than Lebron" statement. :lol

Good move by Cleveland.

[ElNono]

they have one of the highest payrolls in the league, well over the cap. Ben Wallace was taking on a bad contract like you said the Knicks would do. Try again, this is fun

Not by 2010...
New York Knicks have $18 million in the books for 2010.
Cleveland is in the books for $36 million in 2010.

[Spur-Addict]

LMAO, Wally isn't even under contract anymore

................:lmao

[JamStone]

Where did I start barking back insults to make my point? I was flamed prior to my making ANY insults, you should know that by now. If you want to act like an asshole, I'll always go along with it, but I don't start it. Never have.


I'm not one of the people who flamed you so slow your role. I answered your question without flaming. I'm just saying the way you come across often invites the responses you get.



That's right RJ wouldn't have made them more of a contender. But the Cavs would have had $7 million left to make another trade for a quality player.

Again, you make a suggestion that cannot be supported. Who were the Cavs going to get by trading Sasha Pavlovic's $4.9 million salary? Would it really have been a quality player? Are there teams desperately waiting in line to try to help out the Cavaliers keep LeBron James? Please let me know.

[Allanon]

Admit I'm wrong? I watched every minute of every Cavs game and Wally was the PF for a bunch of games, and Lebron was not. Even the other Cavs fan on here agrees with me. Your website is wrong man, I'm sorry to break it to you but sometimes the internet is not always right

So you are saying 82 Games and ESPN are wrong and you are right. That's all I wanted to know.


for 2 games vs the Magic


not counting the Olympics the only time he has play more than a couple minutes here and there as a PF was 2 games vs the Magic, yes.

ESPN: "seven of the Cavs' most-used lineups feature LBJ at the 4"

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

[Thunder Dan]

Not by 2010...
New York Knicks have $18 million in the books for 2010.
Cleveland is in the books for $36 million in 2010.

right, that doesn't change the fact that the Cavs can go above the cap to sign James and the Knicks can't, thus leaving 1 Max contract to spend for each.

[Thunder Dan]

[QUOTE=Allanon;3490718]So you are saying 82 Games and ESPN are wrong and you are right. That's all I wanted to know.




/QUOTE]

that's exactly what I'm saying. I saw it all with my own eyes. Lebron hardly ever played PF until the Magic series.

[Allanon]

I'm not one of the people who flamed you so slow your role. I answered your question without flaming. I'm just saying the way you come across often invites the responses you get.

Oh no, I'm not referring to you. We're just discussing. Me and Dirk4MVP go way back. He got butthurt awhile back over something, I forgot :lol



Again, you make a suggestion that cannot be supported. Who were the Cavs going to get by trading Sasha Pavlovic's $4.9 million salary? Would it really have been a quality player? Are there teams desperately waiting in line to try to help out the Cavaliers keep LeBron James? Please let me know.

Who knows what they could have gotten with $7 million more salary leeway. The Spurs were able to turn KT & Bowen into Richard Jefferson.

In a couple of months, we'll see what other teams get and come Playoffs we'll see how this trade stacks up.

Neither of us can be right or wrong right now, we'll have to see how it plays out. I'm cool with waiting it out til then to see who was right and who was wrong.

[JamStone]

The thing is there is nothing that will happen short of LeBron and Shaq winning a championship next season that will prove who's right or wrong. If Shaq becomes a cancer and it doesn't work out, it doesn't mean it was a bad trade. They just let him walk and take the cap space. And, other players getting traded on the cheap doesn't mean the Cavs could have gotten those players instead. There are GMs in the league that won't help certain teams. Do you think teams want to help Cleveland become title contenders and increase their chances to keep LeBron? No, they don't. Even this Shaq trade is too generous but Kerr has a good relationship with Ferry. If it weren't Kerr, I don't think the deal goes down.

[Allanon]

The thing is there is nothing that will happen short of LeBron and Shaq winning a championship next season that will prove who's right or wrong.

If the Cavs win a Championship, obviously, it was a great trade. If Shaq starts whining, it was a bad trade. If the Rockets trade Yao for Sasha Vujacic, the Cavs/Shaq trade was bad. If Shaq puts up 13 points like he did in Miami, it was a bad trade. If Shaq only plays 30 games, it was a bad trade. Etc, etc.



Do you think teams want to help Cleveland become title contenders and increase their chances to keep LeBron? No, they don't. Even this Shaq trade is too generous but Kerr has a good relationship with Ferry. If it weren't Kerr, I don't think the deal goes down.

Bucks just made the Spurs a legit contender again, for dirt cheap.

[Allanon]

I just saw the Amare to Warriors trade. The Cavs chose the Shaq deal instead of going for Amare? Wow.

[JamStone]

If the Cavs win a Championship, obviously, it was a great trade. If Shaq starts whining, it was a bad trade. If the Rockets trade Yao for Sasha Vujacic, the Cavs/Shaq trade was bad. If Shaq puts up 13 points like he did in Miami, it was a bad trade. If Shaq only plays 30 games, it was a bad trade. Etc, etc.

Simply disagree. There is no evidence that there were better alternatives to improve the Cavs. Unless that is proven, it's a trade that was worth any negative "risks" you suggest. If the Cavs could have gotten Tim Duncan for Ben Wallace and Pavlovic, it was a bad trade. But, short of proving they had a better offer, it's a good trade for what they gave up and worth any potential problems there might be with Shaq.




Bucks just made the Spurs a legit contender again, for dirt cheap.

LeBron James. He's kind of a superstar who's going to be a free agent next summer. Teams kind of want him to explore his options and not stay in Cleveland. The Spurs are a great team that looks like it's ending their title run. Still a great move for the Spurs and it does improve their team a lot, but it's not a similar situation.

[JamStone]

I just saw the Amare to Warriors trade. The Cavs chose the Shaq deal instead of going for Amare? Wow.

The Cavs don't have a young starting center and the #7 pick to offer the Suns. Allanon, you need to just drop this and stop.

[Thunder Dan]

Allanon should be a GM, he seems to have the whole NBA figured out. He figures out how to turn a 6'2 player into a 6'5 player, how to trade guys who aren't even on your team, who to trade for, and what a team needs to win a championship. I'd hire him for my team

[Allanon]

The Cavs don't have a young starting center and the #7 pick to offer the Suns. Allanon, you need to just drop this and stop.

Amare was available to the right price. Obviously the Cavs didn't offer the price. Jamstone, you just need to stop following me around.

[JamStone]

The Cavs didn't offer the price? The Cavs didn't have the price and couldn't offer the price. They don't even have a first round pick in this year's draft. They can't even trade next year's first round draft pick yet. They don't have a young starting caliber center under contract for several years to offer. Come on. As if you haven't already been, but now you're getting ridiculous.

[Cry Havoc]

Allanon should be a GM, he seems to have the whole NBA figured out. He figures out how to turn a 6'2 player into a 6'5 player, how to trade guys who aren't even on your team, who to trade for, and what a team needs to win a championship. I'd hire him for my team

:lmao

Ownage.

[Thunder Dan]

If they Cavs really wanted Amare they could have gotten him by offering the Suns Kevin Garnett and Ben Wallace

[Allanon]

Simply disagree. There is no evidence that there were better alternatives to improve the Cavs. Unless that is proven, it's a trade that was worth any negative "risks" you suggest. If the Cavs could have gotten Tim Duncan for Ben Wallace and Pavlovic, it was a bad trade. But, short of proving they had a better offer, it's a good trade for what they gave up and worth any potential problems there might be with Shaq.

How do we know there weren't better alternatives?



LeBron James. He's kind of a superstar who's going to be a free agent next summer. Teams kind of want him to explore his options and not stay in Cleveland. The Spurs are a great team that looks like it's ending their title run. Still a great move for the Spurs and it does improve their team a lot, but it's not a similar situation.

The Spurs just got another shot in the arm and became a contender again. You don't have a point...teams make deals to help themselves. Usually they keep it out of conference; that's about it.

[Allanon]

Allanon should be a GM, he seems to have the whole NBA figured out. He figures out how to turn a 6'2 player into a 6'5 player, how to trade guys who aren't even on your team, who to trade for, and what a team needs to win a championship. I'd hire him for my team

Ah, and you figured out LeBron has only played 2 times at Power Forward. Just Great.

I'd hire you to keep statistics for the team. :lol




2 times against the Magic
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM
ESPN: "seven of the Cavs' most-used lineups feature LBJ at the 4"

[Thunder Dan]

How do we know there weren't better alternatives?



The Spurs just got another shot in the arm and became a contender again. You don't have a point...teams make deals to help themselves. Usually they keep it out of conference; that's about it.

no offense, but I think Danny Ferry has a better idea of what is right for the Cavs and who is available than you do.

[Thunder Dan]

Ah, and you figured out LeBron has only played 2 times at Power Forward. Just Great.

I'd hire you to keep statistics for the team. :lol

How many times did they say he played point guard when Mo Williams and West were on the floor and he brought the ball up? same shit

[JamStone]

How do we know there weren't better alternatives?

We don't. But you have suggested there are and will be. You can't prove that either. Unless there is hard evidence that there was a better trade the Cavs could have made, you assume this was the best trade the Cavs felt they could make.




The Spurs just got another shot in the arm and became a contender again. You don't have a point...teams make deals to help themselves. Usually they keep it out of conference; that's about it.

Again, show the trades the Cavs could have made that are better than the Shaq trade, and I will concede the point. You can't.

[Allanon]

We don't. But you have suggested there are and will be. You can't prove that either. Unless there is hard evidence that there was a better trade the Cavs could have made, you assume this was the best trade the Cavs felt they could make.

That's why I said neither of us can prove right or wrong. We'll have to wait it out. There are no wins here.



Again, show the trades the Cavs could have made that are better than the Shaq trade, and I will concede the point. You can't.

No need to concede your point. I can't prove my point. You can't prove your point either. We won't know until the end of the year how good this trade was.

[Allanon]

How many times did they say he played point guard when Mo Williams and West were on the floor and he brought the ball up? same shit

What does this have to do with you saying LeBron James has only played 2 games as a Power Forward?

You're obviously wrong and too stubborn to admit you FAILed.

You are a waste of typing, argue with yourself because I'm not wasting more time with you.

82 Games clearly shows you are wrong. ESPN clearly states that seven of their most used lineups feature LeBron at the 4.
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

[Cry Havoc]

What does this have to do with you saying LeBron James has only played 2 games as a Power Forward? You're obviously wrong and too stubborn to admit it.

82 Games clearly shows you are wrong. ESPN clearly states that seven of their most used lineups featuer LeBron at the 4.

Playing him "at the 4" doesn't mean he was playing in the actual game like a power forward would play. This invalidates your point about what the Cavs need. LeBron isn't a PF, therefore he doesn't fill the role as a PF on the team, no matter if he plays there or not.

[Allanon]

Playing him "at the 4" doesn't mean he was playing in the actual game like a power forward would play. This invalidates your point about what the Cavs need. LeBron isn't a PF, therefore he doesn't fill the role as a PF on the team, no matter if he plays there or not.

If LeBron isn't playing the Power Foward who is?

Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao

Who will guard Pau Gasol, who will guard Bynum?

[Thunder Dan]

Allanon, I'm not arguing anymore. I think even you don't believe your own bullshit at this point. Let's call it a truce

[Cry Havoc]

If LeBron isn't playing the Power Foward who is?

Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao

Who will guard Pau Gasol, who will guard Bynum?


Thanks for supporting the statement I just made. James at the four does not give the Cavs a legitimate power forward to play in the lineup. You just agreed with everyone who's been arguing against you in this thread.

[KidCongo]

LeBron played the C spot against David West this year too. But why would a C guard Chris Paul as well?

Allanon LeBron played SF in those lineups with Wally at PF. Wally got torched by Leon Powe one time and LeBron was guarding Pierce. Naww LBJ is the PF but.