Honduran leader forced into exile

[velik_m]

Honduran leader forced into exile

Troops in Honduras have detained the president and flown him out of the country after a power struggle over plans to change the constitution.

President Manuel Zelaya was flown to Costa Rica from an air force base outside the capital, Tegucigalpa.

Mr Zelaya, elected for a non-renewable four-year term in January 2006, wanted a vote to extend his time in office.

His arrest came just before the start of a referendum ruled illegal by the Supreme Court and opposed by Congress.

There was also resistance within Mr Zelaya's own party to the plan to hold the vote.

Reuters news agency reports that police fired teargas at about 500 supporters of Mr Zelaya who had gathered outside the presidential palace.

'Arrested in pyjamas'

Protesters reportedly hurled rocks at the soldiers, shouting "Traitors", AP news agency reports, as tanks rolled through the streets and air force jets flew over the capital.

Early on Sunday, witnesses saw dozens of troops surround Mr Zelaya's residence.

In other developments:

• At an emergency meeting in Washington, the Organization of American States condemned what it called a "coup" in Honduras

• Mr Zelaya's ally, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, blamed "the Yankee empire", and threatened military action in the event that the Venezuelan ambassador to Honduras was attacked, reported Reuters

• The White House denied any involvement, US President Barack Obama urged Honduras to "respect the rule of law" and the EU condemned Mr Zelaya's arrest

• The Honduran Supreme Court said it had ordered the removal of the president

• Honduran MPs were to vote on Sunday to name Congress President Roberto Micheletti, a member of Mr Zelaya's own party but an opponent of the deposed leader, a senior opposition deputy told Reuters

From Costa Rica, Mr Zelaya told Venezuelan TV that Honduran soldiers had arrested him in his pyjamas.

"I'm in San Jose in Costa Rica," he said. "I've been the victim of a kidnapping by a group of Honduran soldiers.

"This was a plot by a very voracious elite, an elite which wants only to keep this country isolated, in an extreme level of poverty. It doesn't care about the people, it's not sensitive to them."

The military's dramatic move came after President Zelaya defied a court order that he should re-instate the chief of the army, Gen Romeo Vasquez.

The president sacked Gen Vasquez late on Wednesday for refusing to help him organise the referendum.

Mr Zelaya, who under current regulations leaves office next January, also accepted the resignation of the defence minister.

'US opposed coup'

The referendum was to ask the population if they approved of a formal vote next November on whether to rewrite the Honduran constitution.

On Thursday, the Honduran Congress approved plans to investigate whether the president should be declared unfit to rule.

In an interview with Spain's El Pais newspaper published on Sunday, Mr Zelaya said a planned coup against him had been thwarted after the US refused to back it.

"Everything was in place for the coup and if the US embassy had approved it, it would have happened. But they did not," Mr Zelaya said.

The arrest of Mr Zelaya took place an hour before polls were due to open.

Ballot boxes and other voting materials had been distributed by Mr Zelaya's supporters and government employees throughout the Central American country.

The president has vowed to transform Honduras, saying the system currently favours the wealthy elite. But his opponents accused him of seeking to rule indefinitely.

Honduras - an impoverished coffee and banana-exporting nation of more than 7 million people - has experienced military coups in the past.

Soldiers overthrew elected presidents in 1963 and again in 1975; the military did not turn the government over to civilians until 1981.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/8123126.stm

[Winehole23]

Just guessing, this coup passed muster at the US Embassy. Que chingon Zelaya, but obviously, so are the Honduran armed forces.

[jman3000]

Nothing like an aspiring authoritarian leader hiding his power grab under the veil of democracy.

*cough*Putin, Chavez*cough*

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Obama is such a douche.

People get shot in the streets in Iran and he says we shouldn't interfere with what's going on over there.

This guy tries to ignore the rule of law, their country's Supreme Court, gets removed, and Obama is calling for a cease and desist within the hour.

[Winehole23]

All Obama did is ask that rule of law be respected. He didn't denounce anyone (unlike OAS and EU). IMO his tack is very similar to that in Iraq. Not to explicitly take sides.

This makes him a douche how?

[sabar]

Chavez ally tries to remove limits on re-election and gets opposed by the majority of people in power. Maybe people down there are wising up to what a real democracy is like. I expect Chavez will trash the U.S. soon on some tirade.

[Winehole23]

The US denounces the coup more clearly now (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55R2AY20090628).



We recognize Zelaya as the duly elected and constitutional president of Honduras. We see no other," the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told reporters in a conference call organized by the U.S. State Department.

A second official on the same conference call stressed that the United States strongly backed efforts by the Organization of American States to forge a resolution condemning a coup d'etat ousting Zelaya on Sunday and calling for him to be reinstated.


"This is not a process that should be interfered with bilaterally by any country in the Americas," said the second official.

[Winehole23]

Really, AHF, you think the US president should endorse a military coup just because we like the outcome?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sorry, didn't get a chance to see the new article. The first report I heard said that Obama was calling for a halt to the coup. I see he put out a statement that was a little more reserved.

It's still funny that he was silent for days on Iran, but has an opinion on Honduras the morning it happens.

[Winehole23]

Honduras isn't as important or as complex.

[Winehole23]

It's still funny that he was silent for days on Iran, but has an opinion on Honduras the morning it happens.I thought it was funny you relied on Zelaya's tale about Obama's previous meddling.

[Winehole23]

The U.S. has been in touch with Zelaya since he was brought to Costa Rica by the forces that unseated him (http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/06/28/us-has-talked-with-deposed-honduran-leader-2/), and has been trying to communicate with members of the Honduran Congress to insist that the new power structure step down, the official said. As well, officials in Washington and in the Honduran capital have been seeking ways to make sure Zelaya's family is unharmed.

[Winehole23]

...

[sam1617]

I have no complaints with this coup.

I also don't mind the way Obama is handling it. Inside, he has to be pumped, but I think he took a decent tone with the whole situation...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

People crying for a moral absolute obama should stick to are fucking idiots. There are only situations that benefit us, and situations that don't.

[sam1617]

People crying for a moral absolute obama should stick to are fucking idiots. There are only situations that benefit us, and situations that don't.

+1 to an extent.

The USA generally has tried to be a fairly moral country, and our leader should reflect that. I'm not saying he needs to be absolutely moral in his choices, but when it is possible, he should be.

[jman3000]

So what's the end game here? Return Zalaya to power, have him drop his bid for a constitutional amendment, then see who the next democratically elected leader is?

Seems fair. It's a pretty well known fact that military coups almost always end with authoritarian leaders promising democratic reinstallment once things get "situated".

[sam1617]

So what's the end game here? Return Zalaya to power, have him drop his bid for a constitutional amendment, then see who the next democratically elected leader is?

Seems fair. It's a pretty well known fact that military coups almost always end with authoritarian leaders promising democratic reinstallment once things get "situated".

IMO, the only appropriate choice would be to let the situation resolve itself, at least until a foreign power gets involved. Of course, the best solution would be for someone else that is a 1st world country to recognize the new Honduras gov't as legitimate, so we can avoid being the first to do so. After people recognize them as legitimate, we can treat with them, and then its just regular politics from their, with us having a potential tool to use against Venezuela.

[Winehole23]

I don't see Zelaya coming back. Honduras will continue to purge leftist elements until it is safe to hold elections again. The writing seems to be on the wall (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/29/claim-leftist-leader-assassinated-in-honduras/) already.

OTOH, the international opposition to the coup is almost unanimous. UN Chief Ban Ki Moon -- and now, Obama too -- has called for Zelaya's restoration. And there seems to be a real concern that Venezuela will intervene. Hence the US warning about "bilateral action".

[jman3000]

I don't see Zelaya coming back. Honduras will continue to purge leftist elements until it is safe to hold elections again. The writing seems to be on the wall (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/29/claim-leftist-leader-assassinated-in-honduras/) already.

OTOH, the international opposition to the coup is almost unanimous. UN Chief Ban Ki Moon -- and now, Obama too -- has called for Zelaya's restoration. And there seems to be a real concern that Venezuela will intervene. Hence the US warning about "bilateral action".

Wouldn't it be possible to simply take his name off the ballot and have a vote?

If he unconstitutionally put his name on the ballot, then he's not legally allowed to be on it anyway.

I can see a scenario where he goes back under guard, they hold the election, then he's ousted as soon as the results come in by an emergency inauguration. Nothing but a dog and pony show... but it keeps the democratic institutions intact and keeps the military away from things.

[Winehole23]

Wouldn't it be possible to simply take his name off the ballot and have a vote?

If he unconstitutionally put his name on the ballot, then he's not legally allowed to be on it anyway.The referendum Zelaya was insisting on having was a referendum on having a subsequent constitutional referendum. His name is not on the ballot. Nor would it necessarily be, if the referendum had taken place.


I can see a scenario where he goes back under guard, they hold the election, then he's ousted as soon as the results come in by an emergency inauguration. What for? Who would be fooled and why would Zelaya go along with it?


Nothing but a horse and pony show... but it keeps the democratic institutions intact and keeps the military away from things.Too late for that, I'd say.

[jman3000]

The referendum Zelaya was insisting on having was a referendum on having a subsequent constitutional referendum. His name is not on the ballot. Nor would it necessarily be, if the referendum had taken place.

What for? Who would be fooled and why would Zelaya go along with it?

Too late for that, I'd say.

Ahh... I took when it said "he was taken an hour before the ballots opened" as a presidential election... not a referendum.

I skimmed too quickly.

[CosmicCowboy]

Should we just ignore that by their constitution Zelaya couldn't call a referendum to extend his term? They have separation of powers just like our constitution and their courts and congress were warning him that he couldn't and shouldn't do it. Hell, he had to get his buddy Hugo Chavez to print the ballots for him because everyone else in the country was saying NO! Isn't that democracy working the way it is supposed to? Why are we on the wrong side of this issue?

[Winehole23]

Should we just ignore that by their constitution Zelaya couldn't call a referendum to extend his term? They have separation of powers just like our constitution and their courts and congress were warning him that he couldn't and shouldn't do it.Who's ignoring it. Me and jman were just talking about it.


Hell, he had to get his buddy Hugo Chavez to print the ballots for him because everyone else in the country was saying NO! Isn't that democracy working the way it is supposed to? Why are we on the wrong side of this issue?Maybe so that the Honduran people see that they have somebody beside Hugo Chavez on their side.

Kidnapping the President in his pyjamas in the dead of night, flying him out of the country, and declaring two days of martial law to crack down on his political allies is hardly an *orderly* transition of power.

[CosmicCowboy]

Looked pretty orderly to me. The guy overextended and got bitch slapped by reality. His country doesn't want a Chavez style dictator. It's done and it was a good thing.

[Winehole23]

Looked pretty orderly to me. The guy overextended and got bitch slapped by reality... It's done and it was a good thing.I think a lot of people feel that way. Including maybe Obama.

Surely you understand why he can't come right out and say that, right?


His country doesn't want a Chavez style dictator.If this were really the case, there was nothing to fear from a referendum. The people would've voted it down.

[jman3000]

I think the real issue at hand here is if we allow for the coup to stay it's a twofer:

1) We allow a military coup to take place to our neighbors around the corner. Military coups are the worst types of regime change because they're highly unstable and you have people running a country who know nothing of running a country and everything of strict order and killing people.

2) We risk Chavez sending in troops and further destabilizing the region. The fact that the Panama Canal is so close should make this an even less desirable situation. I'm not sure if we want to call his bluff.

The problem with returning him to power is that you basically have a lame duck and the hatred seems to be running pretty high for him. Unless he sits in a bunker the rest of his term he might get assassinated by his own people.

It's a sticky situation for sure.

[jman3000]

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the neo cons would want fighting so close (not necessarily with us involved). All the blood shed and violence in the middle east is too far for them. They need death and destruction a bit closer.

[CosmicCowboy]

neo cons?

:lmao

[jman3000]

Interchangeable with war mongers I suppose. Would you disagree?

Is that the only comment you wish to comment on?

The fact is if we had it your way, the shit would really hit the fan.

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuck you.

I don't want to invade them.

At the same time, it doesn't hurt to stand up for the checks and balances democratic principles we are supposed to stand for.

It's really not that hard. Unfortunately our President doesn't really believe in checks and balances. He is currently setting up "czars" for virtually every segment of our government and this pussified congress won't even question him on it. There was a reason our founders set up a legislative/executive/judicial balance.

If believing this makes me a "neo-con" in your fucked up world I'm proud to carry that label.

[jman3000]

Fuck you.

I don't want to invade them.

At the same time, it doesn't hurt to stand up for the checks and balances democratic principles we are supposed to stand for.

It's really not that hard. Unfortunately our President doesn't really believe in checks and balances. He is currently setting up "czars" for virtually every segment of our government and this pussified congress won't even question him on it. There was a reason our founders set up a legislative/executive/judicial balance.

If believing this makes me a "neo-con" in your fucked up world I'm proud to carry that label.


(not necessarily with us involved)

I guess you don't know how to read.

Do you not see how a military coup taking place holds the possibility for an authoritarian military regime to take over? Do you not remember Chile? Not to mention the handful of African countries this has happened to.

But hey whatever. Obama is saying something so obviously your opinion is going to be the opposite without looking at any of the nuances of the situation.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

neo cons?

:lmao
i guess we were allllllll neocons on 91201


who knews?

[jman3000]

but whatever... i'm drunk and need to finish a paper.

[jman3000]

i guess we were allllllll neocons on 91201


who knews?

hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

what a bunch of fags.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

what a bunch of fags.
so is this what they're teaching you these days?

you see someone that wants to defend something and you instantly label them a "neocon"? were you a neocon on 91201?

[Ignignokt]

I guess you don't know how to read.

Do you not see how a military coup taking place holds the possibility for an authoritarian military regime to take over? Do you not remember Chile? Not to mention the handful of African countries this has happened to.

But hey whatever. Obama is saying something so obviously your opinion is going to be the opposite without looking at any of the nuances of the situation.


There's no nuance to this, The democrats and the UN only invade and occupy easy as cake countries everyone doesn't give a crap about, Bosnia-kosovo. The nuance is not in the morals, don't fool yourself. We'll bomb the shit out of despots if its white on brown just to say, look that's the bad guy.

There's no nuance, brainwattage spent on this type of bullshit.

[Ignignokt]

hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

what a bunch of fags.

whoah, that's exactly the same thing i say whenever i see a jman and winehole circle jerk, baseline bum and chump partnership. Are you this dense?

[SnakeBoy]

Honduras Defends Its Democracy Fidel Castro and Hillary Clinton object.
By MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY

Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution.

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking.

But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.

[Winehole23]

It's the first military coup in Central America since the end of the Cold War, and given our history in the region, a lot of people will assume we're behind it no matter what we say.

It's like the rising in Iran. Supporting the "good guys" comes at a price. In Iran, the "good guys" themselves would bear the cost of our support. And however supporting the coup in Honduras might make us feel better, it could hurt us strategically throughout the Americas.

[Winehole23]

Historical context counts, y'all. Not everything is as simple as picking good guys and bad guys for the President.

For *you and me*, it's another matter entirely.

[Winehole23]

The one thing I would criticize Obama for in this case is denouncing Zelaya's ouster as illegal. It contradicts his erstwhile caution, and it could be construed as meddling. I fail to see how it is consistent with his pose as a respecter of Honduras' sovereignty.

IMO it is also likely that this coup is actually legal.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=200906281405dowjonesdjonline000 276&title=wsj-update-obama-worked-to-prevent-ouster-of-honduras-president


The Obama administration worked in recent days to prevent President Manuel Zelaya's ouster, said a senior U.S. official. The State Department, in particular, communicated to Honduran officials on the ground that President Barack Obama wouldn't support any nondemocratic transfer of power in the Central American country.

But you all said Obama wasn't meddling...

[Winehole23]

Copycat. I just suggested as much. :lol

At first, Obama was cautious and restrained; now he is being more *meddlesome*. The situation unfolds gradually, not all at once. As Obama's positions change, so will opinions about it.

[sam1617]

Just leave the whole situation be. Isn't that what everyone wants after Iraq? To not get involved in foreign screwiness? Then why the fuck is this arguement happening? There is no good military solution, and the political results are ok if the former Honduran President stays gone, so until Chavez invades, then we do nothing, and once Chavez does, we just let the UN ask us for help and then go in and force Venezuela back to there borders. It would piss Chavez off, but who really gives a shit?

[jman3000]

hmmm... :lol not as bad as I remembered. I remember telling somebody to go fuck themselves... maybe that was in another thread.

My apologies for the "fags" comment. I usually try to stay away from ad hominem, unless it's in jest or has some further meaning.

[SnakeBoy]

IMO it is also likely that this coup is actually legal.

I agree. I wouldn't even call it a coup. They prevented one.

[Crookshanks]

There was no coup. The military removed the guy who wouldn't give up the Presidency and then the Congress appointed a new President until everything can be sorted out. The military is not in control and this was all done according to their constitution.

News also came out today that the ousted President was allowing massive amounts of drugs to be flown into his country and then into the United States. He was a leftist, thug wanna-be - and that's why the UN and Chavez and Castro are upset that he's gone.

[hope4dopes]

So Obama berates and all but dictates to Israel it's future, but turns a blind eye to a stolen election in Iran, and ignores the murders of who knows how many pro democracy protesters there.A situation that's reminicent of the tinamen square massacre is swept under the rug by obama and the state run media.
He ass kisses Chavez,ortega, and Castro giving legitamacy to the propaganda of evil white yankee imperiaist is stealing Latin America's future not home grown neanderthal brown thug, thus allowing the the rape of the workers of latin america to continue.
And now he speaks out...and what does he speak out for....The defense of a Chavez backed thug who shits on the constitution and makes a transparent power grab.
The idea that Obama was sitting in the back pews of Rev. Wrights "church" doing crossword puzzels for 20 years, and wasn't aware of what was going on is now completely laughable.
It appears either Rev.Wright is writing Obama's forgien policy, or perhaps Obama was writing the good Revrends sermons for him.

[Winehole23]

There was no coup. The military removed the guy who wouldn't give up the Presidency and then the Congress appointed a new President until everything can be sorted out.This looks like the template for...a banana republic style coup. The Supreme Court issuing orders to the military to remove the President? Congress appointing a new President? How does that serve checks and balances?

Not calling it a coup seems a little screwy on its face.


The military is not in control and this was all done according to their constitution.You might be right about this. I'm even slightly inclined to believe it. But I can't prove it. Can you?

[sam1617]

This looks like the template for...a banana republic style coup. The Supreme Court issuing orders to the military to remove the President? Congress appointing a new President? How does that serve checks and balances?

Not calling it a coup seems a little screwy on its face.

You might be right about this. I'm even slightly inclined to believe it. But I can't prove it. Can you?

From what I've heard on the news, Zeleya tried to push a referendum to change the amount of terms for a president that everyone from the Supreme Court to Congress deemed unconstitutional, Congress and the SC told him no, he said he would do it anyway, and so Congress ordered his arrest. From what I've hear Congress also ordered him to be shipped off into exile. So based on that, I would argue that it wasn't quite a traditional military coup, as it had support of 2 of the 3 branches of government.

[Winehole23]

I heard that the Supreme Court ordered the arrest. I'd say I'm 99% sure of that. How sure are you it was the Congress, Sam?


So based on that, I would argue that it wasn't quite a traditional military coup, as it had support of 2 of the 3 branches of government.Perhaps not. A coup by the consensus of a majority of the branches is still a coup unless there is some clear constitutional basis for it.

Is there? The constitutionality of the coup has been repeatedly asserted, but as yet I find no citation that supports the claim.

Have you found one, Sam?

[Winehole23]

WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html):


The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders.The accession of Micheletti appears to be kosher..

[Winehole23]

A good discussion of the semantics of the *coup* can be found here (http://opiniojuris.org/2009/06/29/honduras-coup-or-not-and-whats-in-a-word/). Also in the comments section.

[sam1617]

I heard that the Supreme Court ordered the arrest. I'd say I'm 99% sure of that. How sure are you it was the Congress, Sam?

Perhaps not. A coup by the consensus of a majority of the branches is still a coup unless there is some clear constitutional basis for it.

Is there? The constitutionality of the coup has been repeatedly asserted, but as yet I find no citation that supports the claim.

Have you found one, Sam?

Alas, I'm not an expert on the Honduran constitution :downspin:

But my tendency is to say that when 2/3's of your gov't says something, it tends to become legal, especially when the military agrees.

As for Congress ordering the arrest, I thought I heard that on NPR the other day, but I was driving and talking on the phone at the same time, so I may have misheard.

[Winehole23]

But my tendency is to say that when 2/3's of your gov't says something, it tends to become legal, especially when the military agrees.This can be boiled down to *might makes right*, but you're surely correct.

The proper thing to do probably would've been to prosecute Zelaya under article 42 of the Honduran Constitution, and then (perhaps) for treason, but I can see how this would've been hard to do.

Doing things the right way can be hard. Inexpedient, too. Zelaya was the executive branch, and he tried to install his cronies in the military to get around the other two branches. There's a good argument that Zelaya was already laboring to upend the established constitutional order in Honduras, at the time of his official persecution.

Additionally, the military would've been justified in using force to repel the ballot box raid, so their restraint in that instance, and in yielding to Congress after the ouster was accomplished, is to be commended IMO.

OTOH, the Mexican press claims a leader of an opposing party was shot and killed by Honduras' military. Details on this were still murky last night as far as I could tell. I think there has been a preliminary official remark on the shooting, but I haven't read it yet.

[sam1617]

This can be boiled down to *might makes right*, but you're surely correct.

The proper thing to do probably would've been to prosecute Zelaya under article 42 of the Honduran Constitution, and then (perhaps) for treason, but I can see how this would've been hard to do. Zelaya was the executive branch, and he tried to install his cronies in the military to get around the other two branches.

Also, the military would've been justified in using force to repel the ballot box raid, so thier restraint in that instance, and in yielding to Congress after the ouster was accomplished, is to be commended IMO.

In politics, whether good or bad, might does make right.

And I agree, the situation could have been handled way better, but unfortunately, it wasn't, and for being handled the way it was, other than the international outcry, it wasn't bad anyways.

As for the international outcry, that wouldn't have been that bad if it weren't for Chavez...

[Winehole23]

And I agree, the situation could have been handled way better, but unfortunately, it wasn't, and for being handled the way it was, other than the international outcry, it wasn't bad anyways. I'm not so sure. Seizing Zelaya in his bedclothes, bundling him into a plane and dumping him on the tarmac in San Juan, was a little brusque, but I'm not quite convinced it was unnecessary, still less that it was a particularly bad way for Honduras' Judiciary and the Congress to have accomplished the counter-coup.


As for the international outcry, that wouldn't have been that bad if it weren't for Chavez...For some reason, the condemnation is *universal* on this one.

I was hoping the US would set itself apart by maintaining --following the example of our reaction to the election in Iran -- unenthused technical neutrality on the question. Fake (or tactical) indifference, if you like.

For a moment, Obama seemed be doing this with Honduras.

After sleeping on it Obama joined the international chorus of boos. Phony concern.

Boo.

[Crookshanks]

I just do not understand the world's reaction to this. It was Zelaya who was trying to set himself up as President for Life - Hugo Chavez style. He was warned that it was unconstitutional, but he thumbed his nose at them and went ahead with his plans.

So they tossed him out on his butt - in his PJ's - sounds like the right treatment for a thug wanna be!

I just hope the country of Honduras sticks to its law and tells the rest of the world to shut the hell up and stay out of their business! Geez - I thought we wanted to prevent the rise of dictators such as Chavez, Ortega and Castro.

[Winehole23]

It has been suggested Honduras could have braved the rogue referendum by declaring it legally inapplicable beforehand, and then allowing it to proceed anyway. Such a strategy discloses contempt for popular sovereignty, even more so as the fake votes pile up.

But the contempt already disclosed for constitutional niceties like formal charges and trials discloses the heart of the criollo elite, which is also remembered in its historical context at home. Everybody knows the score.

The Liberal Party in Honduras is the solid, establishmentarian conservatives. They are the ruling party. That is where Zelaya came from, before he became celoso of power, and started courting a more downscale populism.

[Winehole23]

So they tossed him out on his butt - in his PJ's - sounds like the right treatment for a thug wanna be!That doesn't sound very rough to me, but yeah.


I just hope the country of Honduras sticks to its law and tells the rest of the world to shut the hell up and stay out of their business! So far, they are.


Geez - I thought we wanted to prevent the rise of dictators such as Chavez, Ortega and Castro.Again, Honduras is all over it, Crooks.

Even if the return of Zelaya is forced upon them -- and I hope it is not -- there is nothing to prevent Honduras from prosecuting him for what he's already done, or arresting Zelaya if he tries to fill any electoral office. The clock probably started whenever Zelaya's constitutional incapacity started. Ten years to regain his eligibility, I think.

If he lives that long, or gets out of prison in only ten years.

[CosmicCowboy]

US suspends military relations with Honduras
Email this Story

Jul 1, 8:36 PM (ET)

By ROBERT BURNS



WASHINGTON (AP) - The Obama administration said Wednesday it has suspended joint military operations with Honduras to protest a coup that forced President Manuel Zelaya into exile. The U.S. withheld stronger action in hopes of negotiating a peaceful return of the country's elected leader.

The Organization of American States, meeting in Washington, gave Honduran coup leaders three days to restore Zelaya to power - under threat of suspending Honduras's OAS membership. Afterward, several officials said the administration is still reviewing the possibility of cutting off U.S. aid.

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, said, "We continue to monitor the situation and will respond accordingly as events transpire."

At the State Department, spokesman Ian C. Kelly said the department's top diplomat for the Americas, Thomas Shannon, met with Zelaya at OAS headquarters on Tuesday evening. Kelly would not reveal details, except to say Zelaya thanked the administration for supporting his unconditional return to power.

Kelly said he was not aware of any plan to recall the U.S. ambassador from the Honduran capital. Another official, speaking on condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal deliberations, said the administration believes it stands a better chance of achieving a peaceful outcome if it keeps a diplomat in Tegucigalpa.

The official also said the U.S. was not advocating that the matter be taken up by the U.N. Security Council.

Kelly said the administration was still studying whether the forced removal of Zelaya was a military coup in a legal sense that would trigger a cutoff or suspension of American financial assistance.

"Our legal advisers are actively assessing the facts and the law in question, which we take very seriously," Kelly said.

The administration appeared to be counting on the threat of Honduras having its OAS membership suspended as leverage in getting Zelaya back in power. While the administration joined the OAS in calling for Zelaya's unconditional return, with no limits on his presidential powers, it also seemed open to some form of compromise.

U.S. officials said they were pleased that Zelaya, who had vowed to return to Honduras on Thursday, put that off after the OAS announced the three-day deadline for the country's interim leaders to accept him back. Zelaya was in Panama on Wednesday to attend that country's presidential inauguration.

Zelaya said he would put off his return until the weekend.

The decision to suspend U.S. military activities in Honduras was announced by Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, who said, "We've postponed any activities in Honduras right now as we assess that situation."

Whitman would not be specific, but the suspension could have broad implications because the United States runs a large Central American security and counternarcotics operation from a jointly run air base in Honduras. Whitman said only operations affecting Honduras itself are on hold.

Earlier, OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza delivered what he called "an ultimatum" for Zelaya's safe return.

In a sharply worded resolution, the OAS said it vehemently condemned the coup and "the arbitrary detention and expulsion" of Zelaya.

The coup, the OAS resolution said, has produced an "unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order."

Calling Zelaya's overthrow an "old-fashioned coup," Insulza said: "We need to show clearly that military coups will not be accepted. We thought we were in an era when military coups were no longer possible in this hemisphere."

Zelaya has said he intends to return home accompanied by Insulza, the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador and the head of the U.N. General Assembly to seek restoration of his authority.

Roberto Micheletti, named by Honduras' Congress as the new president, said Tuesday that Zelaya could be met with an arrest warrant if he returned.

---

[RandomGuy]

Seems to be a bit more here at second glance than appeared to be the case initially.

Interesting, and thanks. Wish I had the time to really sift through it. (sighs)

[Winehole23]

The picture (http://www.hondudiario.com/H/content/cn-amplia-toque-de-queda-por-tres-d%C3%AD-m%C3%A1s) is pretty unstable right now.


El diputado, Antonio Rivera Callejas, manifestó que “es bueno aclararle a la opinión publica en general que las garantías individuales confiscadas se hacen durante el período de las 10:00 de la noche hasta las 5:00 de la mañana, la libertad de asociación por ejemplo que contempla este nuevo decreto es que no pueden haber reuniones públicas solamente en ese tiempo, todos los derechos como la libertad de expresión se pueden dar en el transcurso del día”.

“La diferencia es que no todos pueden circular, no puede haber libertad de asociación, pero en el día se pueden hacer las manifestaciones que quieran siempre y cuando vayan enmarcadas en la ley y el orden”, agregó.Toque de queda (http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/toque%5B2%5D). Curfew. For (two) more days? (Timestamp is 530pm testerday.)

[CosmicCowboy]

Keep in mind that the OAS has been pretty much taken over by Chavez's cronies.

[Winehole23]

The Foreign Minister, Enrique Ortez Colindres, told CNN's Spanish language service Zelaya will face charges of drug trafficking in addition to being accused of "violating the constitution."

According to Ortez, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency has evidence (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/07/01/steven-edwards-rosalyes.aspx) of millions of dollars in narcotics money linked to Zelaya. The presidents of Argentina and Ecuador, and the head of the Organization of American States, have said they will accompany Zelaya to Tegucigalpa to serve as a "diplomatic shield." Also among the group will be Miguel D'Escoto Brockmann, the former Nicaraguan revolutionary, who now serves as president of the UN General Assembly, and who has used that position many times over the past year to needle the United States.

[Winehole23]

The Inter-American Development Bank on Wednesday halted aid (http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Protests_grow_as_Honduras_maintains_07022009.html) , following a similar move by the World Bank. And the United States indicated it may follow suit, saying it would wait until Monday before making a decision.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Should we just ignore that by their constitution Zelaya couldn't call a referendum to extend his term? They have separation of powers just like our constitution and their courts and congress were warning him that he couldn't and shouldn't do it. Hell, he had to get his buddy Hugo Chavez to print the ballots for him because everyone else in the country was saying NO! Isn't that democracy working the way it is supposed to? Why are we on the wrong side of this issue?

I couldn't agree more :tu Zelaya is just another Chavez wannabe hiding behind the "democratically elected" bullshit excuse. Yes, he was democratically elected... for ONE FUCKING TERM! He had no authority to call for that referendum and he got what he deserved. I for one, am completely behind the Honduran supreme court on this one. FUCK SOCIALIST DICTATORS IN THE MAKING!

and fuck Christina Fernandez de Kirschner for poking her nose where it doesn't fucking belong and for disregarding the far more important of her responsabilities which is to ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS OF HER FUCKING COUNTRY before going off to play mediator where she's NOT wanted.

[jman3000]

As long as the military doesn't take over "interim" command, then yeah... fuck him.

That's my only qualm about this.

[Winehole23]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/04/AR2009070400879_pf.html



Although the U.S. government knew for months that Honduras was on the brink of political chaos, officials say they underestimated how fearful the Honduran elite and the military were of ousted President Manuel Zelaya and his ally President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/venezuela.html?nav=el).

Rumors were buzzing in the capital that the fight between Zelaya and his conservative opponents had reached the boiling point, but diplomatic officials said the Obama administration and its embassy were surprised when Honduran soldiers burst into the presidential palace last Sunday and removed Zelaya from power.



U.S. diplomats had been trying to broker a compromise and were speaking to both sides hours before the coup. For decades, Washington has trained the Honduran military, and senior U.S. officials say they did not think that the Honduran military would carry out a coup.

[SonOfAGun]

Interesting fact is that the DEA, although small compared to FBI-CIA, is a really strong force in international intelligence gathering after just re-entering the sector.

[Winehole23]

Octavio Sanchez lays out the constitutional rationale (http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090702/cm_csm/ysanchez).

[smeagol]

By the way . . . Fuck Chavez and anybody who supports him

[Winehole23]

Micheletti and Zelaya accept mediation (http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/07/07/honduras-political-rivals-accept-mediation/) of Oscar Arias.

[Yonivore]

From Volokh Conspiracy (http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_07_05-2009_07_11.shtml#1247020907):


Why are We Backing Zelaya, the Former President of Honduras?

Dan Miller has a seemingly careful account (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-kerfuffle-in-honduras-continues/?print=1) of the situation in Honduras, claiming that there was no military coup:


As most already know, the Honduran Supreme Court was in the midst of a ongoing clash with President Manuel Zelaya on June 28 when an order was issued for President Zelaya’s arrest. The order was executed by the Honduran military, which, it appears, exceeded its authority and not only arrested him but took him to Costa Rica. It did so to prevent internal violence.

The crisis was due to a number of things, including Zelaya’s efforts to amend the Honduran constitution in ways both procedurally and substantively prohibited by that document. The congress then followed the Honduran laws of presidential succession and appointed the (civilian) president of the Congress, Roberto Micheletti, to be the interim president until elections could be held, as scheduled, in November.

While claimed by many to have been a coup by a military junta, it was not. The civilian government remains in power, and the military remains subordinate to it. (A more detailed account is provided in an article (http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/presidents-chvez-obama-et-al-are/) I wrote on June 30. A certification by Honduras of its bases for removing Mr. Zelaya from the presidency is provided here.)

Since the departure of Mr. Zelaya, Honduras has been a focus of much unwanted international attention. President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela has been adamant in demanding that Mr. Zelaya be reinstated as president; the United States Government, while less acerbic, has demanded the same. The Organization of American States (OAS) and the Bolivarian Alternative for Latin America and the Caribbean (ALBA), largely under the leadership of President Chávez, have demanded Zelaya’s return, and so has the UN.

Publicly, at least, Honduras stands alone with the sole exception of the government of Panamá, which, on July 6, asked the various governments to keep their noses out of Honduras’ internal affairs. President Ricardo Martinelli, who recently won the presidential election in Panamá by an unprecedented sixty plus percent with very high voter turnout, stated:


Panamá has to be a leader of freedom and justice, not only here in our home, but in our region and our continent. As president, I will do everything within my power to advance the ideals of a free economy, defying the ideological pendulum in Latin America.

News coverage in Panamá of the Honduran mess has been less biased than most coverage in the United States and elsewhere, and the return of Mr. Zelaya is favored by very few here. . . .

On July 6, he departed Nicaragua for Washington, D.C., where he is to meet with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton prior to his anticipated attempt to return to Honduras on July 8 or 9. Previous meetings subsequent to Mr. Zelaya’s removal from the presidency had been with lower ranking officials.

Also on July 6, an unofficial mission representing the interim Honduran government left for Washington, even though the United States government has not recognized it. According to the Latin American Herald Tribune, “a spokesman for the State Department said Monday that no U.S. officials would meet with representatives of ‘the de facto regime’ in Tegucigalpa.” . . .

What happens next? Mr. Zelaya has threatened to make a second attempt to return to Honduras. Through a spokesman, he stated that “it could be by air, sea or land. … We are not going to say where.” The main Honduran airport remains closed, and it seems unlikely that Mr. Zelaya will be able to land there. Assuming that he nevertheless tries to return, the options would appear to be by land or sea — unless, of course, he decides to bring a parachute. When his aircraft was prevented from landing on July 5, he said that if he had brought a parachute, he would have used it. . . .

It would not be surprising, however, if Mr. Zelaya attempted to return via Nicaragua accompanied by Nicaraguan troops.

In these circumstances, it seems unlikely that either side would back down. This would set the stage for a military confrontation at the border, during which it is conceivable that Mr. Zelaya and others would be killed.

That’s what may happen. What I think should happen is rather different. Panamá has it right, and foreign countries should keep their noses out of Honduras’ internal affairs. The early elections proposed by the interim Honduran government would very likely defuse the explosive situation there and, like the vote a few years ago when Mr. Zelaya was elected, would be fair and transparent.

If Miller is correct, then it appears that the initial reporting of a military coup was grossly mistaken. Manuel Zelaya was not removed from office by the military. After he he was legally removed from office by the Honduran Supreme Court, the military arrested him and removed Zelaya from their country rather than simply arrest him as they were ordered to do. According to Miller, the military is not running the country; the constitution remains in effect and the civilian constitutional successor is in charge.


Why hasn't the US recognized the constitutional successor to Zelaya?

As yet, I have seen no coherent argument from the US government regarding why we are backing the former president, Manuel Zelaya.

http://www.volokh.com/files/jim-2007_07_07_zelaya2_600_1.jpg

"Secretary Clinton holds talks with Honduran President Jose Manuel Zelaya at the State Department."

UPDATE: Note the State Department's caption for the picture. It should be former Honduran President Zelaya.
From Powerline blog:


President Obama has claimed that the removal of Honduran president Mel Zelaya is "illegal." However, Hans Bader (http://www.examiner.com/x-7812-DC-SCOTUS-Examiner~y2009m7d5-Will-Obama-blackmail-Honduras-into-installing-a-bullying-wouldbe-dictator), senior counsel at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, demonstrates otherwise,

Bader points out that Zelaya flouted court rulings by using intimidation to try to get Hondurans to change their constitution to allow him to extend his tenure in office. In response, the country's Supreme Court issued an arrest warrant for Zelaya, which the military enforced by seizing Zelaya and kicking him out of the country. The country's legislature then voted almost unanimously to replace him with its legislative speaker, in accord with the country's constitution.

According to Bader:


Obama is quite wrong to claim that the removal of Zelaya was "illegal." The Honduran president forfeited his right to rule under Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution, which bans presidents from holding office if they even propose to alter the constitutional term limits for presidents. And the Honduran military, which acted on orders of the Honduran supreme court, expressly had the right to remove the president for seeking to alter the constitutional term limit, under Article 272 of the Honduran Constitution. . . .The Honduran military's role in enforcing the court order does not make it a "coup" anymore than federal troops' role in enforcing the court-ordered integration of the Little Rock public schools in 1957 constituted a military occupation or takeover.
Bader bolsters his analysis by quoting from an op-ed by Octavio Sanchez (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0702/p09s03-coop.html), a Honduran lawyer and former Minister of Culture, in the Christian Science Monitor. Scott linked (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/07/023955.php) to Sanchez's piece last week.

Obama's position on Honduras is part of an emerging, and very sad, pattern. His bogus catchphrases may vary ("meddling," "illegal," or whatever), but the result always seems to be the same. Whether the venue is Honduras, Russia, or Iran, Obama instinctively sides, in the first instance, with the enemies of freedom and the rule of law. And it doesn't hurt at all if that party is also hostile towards the U.S.,

For Winehole...

Honduran Constitution (http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html):

Articles 239 & 272


ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República.

El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
* Modificado por Decreto 299/1998.
* Modificado por Decreto 374/2002 y ratificado por Decreto 153/2003.


ARTICULO 272.- Las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras, son una Institución Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional, apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.

Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la Constitución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República.

Cooperarán con la Policía Nacional en la Conservación del orden público.

A efecto de garantizar el libre ejercicio del sufragio, la custodia, transporte y vigilancia de los materiales electorales y demás aspectos de la seguridad del proceso, el Presidente de la República, pondrá a las Fuerzas Armadas a disposición del Tribunal Nacional de Elecciones, desde un mes antes de las elecciones, hasta la declaratoria de las mismas.
* Modificado por Decreto 136/1995 y ratificado por Decreto 229/1996.
* Modificado por Decreto 245/1998 y ratificado por Decreto 2/1999.

[Winehole23]

Thanks, Yoni.

[Winehole23]

Article 239 came up in the Sanchez piece upstream.