CBS Showcases Wilt Chamberlain this Afternoon

[wildbill2u]

Hour long show about the best center ever IMHO>

For those of you young whippersnappers that didn't get to see him play and haven't heard about his legendary exploits on the court and off, this should be mandatory.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I hope they have a group interview with all 20,000 women he slept with. Kind of like "The Bachelor" when they have the show where all the girls who were rejected get to sit around and answer questions from the audience and talk smack.

[wildbill2u]

They handled that by saying that Wilt told several people he regretted the comment. he was just trying to be funny or something and it fell flat because white men can't jump that many bones.

[Rummpd]

2nd best center* ever, best = Bill Russell. Wilt had all the stats except the one that mattered, big games BR owned WC.

*A damm good case can also be made for Kareem who did it all titles, MVPs, all time scoring record etc as well.

At least you did not make me regurgitate with a weak Shaq is greatest arguement!

[timvp]

Shaq would put Wilt or Russell to shame.

Sorry.

:smokin

[Rummpd]

B.S. true students of the game know how limited are Shaq's skills.

Wake me when he ever wins a rebounding title, a blocks title or a title without another great player.

[ShoogarBear]

Um, how many titles did Wilt or Russ win without other great players?

[boutons]

"Shaq would put Wilt or Russell to shame."

You're normally pretty good with bball knowledge, but this point really, reall stinks.

In no way can Shaq hold a cande to Wilt or Bill, no way. Shaq is a lazy, fat, conceited joker of a bastard who wasted his career and his potential (which I don't doubt), let his weight soar irresponsily which caused numerous injuries, and has nowhere near the stats and awards and accomplishments that Wilt and Bill did. And Shaq fucked up his career in a much bigger league of teams with more depleted talent, while Bill and Wilt excelled with and against teams with concentrated talent. Bill and Wilt come from an era, got the accomplishments when basketball was taken seriously, professionally, while Shaq has less results in an era where the the player comes first, show business second, and the team and game comes later. ie, Bill and Wilt had it tougher and achieved more, while Shaq had it easier and did less.

[Rummpd]

Back to the point of the 20,000 women he allegedly slept with - how bad would it have been to a women scorned by the "big dipper"?

[timvp]

You're normally pretty good with bball knowledge, but this point really, reall stinks.


It's only an opinion in the same way you are stating your opinion. However, I'm confident in my stance.


In no way can Shaq hold a cande to Wilt or Bill, no way.

Um, for as great as Bill Russell was in his day, he was only 6-foot-9 and 215 pounds. That's about the size of Sean Elliott and Stephen Jackson. So you are telling me that a player of that size could guard Shaq?

Don't kid yourself.


Shaq is a lazy, fat, conceited joker of a bastard who wasted his career and his potential (which I don't doubt), let his weight soar irresponsily which caused numerous injuries, and has nowhere near the stats and awards and accomplishments that Wilt and Bill did.

Shaq has made it to the finals five times and has won three. That is impressive, considering who was on his team. In LA, he had Kobe and a bunch of role players.

How you can say he's wasted his career is beyond me. He's been the best player on five trips to the finals and has won it all three times. That's a damn impressive resume.

And the scary thing is it's not even done.


And Shaq fucked up his career in a much bigger league of teams with more depleted talent, while Bill and Wilt excelled with and against teams with concentrated talent.

Bill and Russ were going up against players half the size. If you don't think that the best team of today would destroy the best team's of those times, you are mistaken. Today's athletes are much more honed and they are far more athletic. It wouldn't even be close.


Bill and Wilt come from an era, got the accomplishments when basketball was taken seriously, professionally, while Shaq has less results in an era where the the player comes first, show business second, and the team and game comes later.

Basketball was a second-tier sport in those days. The championship games were on tape delay. The youth played baseball and football much more and it wasn't a global game.


ie, Bill and Wilt had it tougher and achieved more, while Shaq had it easier and did less.

How did they have it tougher? Both players played with MANY Hall of Famers. Both players went against a league of Ryan Bowens and Jason Harts. Both players had success in huge markets.

I appreciate the Ol' Skool as much as the next guy, but if you don't recognize that we are just about to enter the Golden Age of Basketball ... you are missing out. Basketball is the fastest growing sport and people all over the world are playing the game. The NBA game is still on the incline and the best is yet to come.

Recognize.

[SequSpur]

I agree with timvp.

Shaq would destroy them.

Period.

[SuBZer0]

"Today's athletes are much more honed and they are far more athletic."

You hit the nail on the head there. And that's why you can't really compare players from different generations. However, I do think that for their respective time periods, Wilt and Russell were fare better than Shaq.

[whottt]

It's only an opinion in the same way you are stating your opinion. However, I'm confident in my stance.



Um, for as great as Bill Russell was in his day, he was only 6-foot-9 and 215 pounds. That's about the size of Sean Elliott and Stephen Jackson. So you are telling me that a player of that size could guard Shaq?

Don't kid yourself.


I'll go you one better...I think a guy 6'7 weighing 210lbs is capable of guarding Shaq...in fact I think he is capable of sweeping Shaq...

Watch the 95-96 playoffs when Shaq had a total meltown and averaged about a foul out per game?




Shaq has made it to the finals five times and has won three. That is impressive, considering who was on his team. In LA, he had Kobe and a bunch of role players.

Yeah, nothing says impressive like getting swept on a team that has Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Eddie Jones etc....

And what happened to him last year?


Shaq's always had a good supporting cast...he won titles when Phil Jackson became his coach.

I give Shaq credit for that though...he chooses teams with a purpose...You didn't seem him okaying a trade to the Atlanta Hawks did you?

Shaq has always had an All NBA Guard on his team...including the years he made the finals.





Bill and Russ were going up against players half the size. If you don't think that the best team of today would destroy the best team's of those times, you are mistaken. Today's athletes are much more honed and they are far more athletic. It wouldn't even be close.

Yeah? And if you took Nolan Ryan from 1973 and dropped him into todays world he'd still have a 100 MPH fast ball that no one could hit...Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would still be able to crush the ball 500 feet with regularity...

You overlook the fact that rules were different back then...Shaq would be stopped the same way Wilt was stopped...by fouling him. Fouling rules weren't that friendly back then.





How did they have it tougher? Both players played with MANY Hall of Famers. Both players went against a league of Ryan Bowens and Jason Harts. Both players had success in huge markets.


And Shaq's biggest success came in the hugest market...on a team with a HOF guard, a coach that already had 6 rings by the time he coached Shaq...and a GM whose talent aquisition abilities are legendary.




I appreciate the Ol' Skool as much as the next guy, but if you don't recognize that we are just about to enter the Golden Age of Basketball ... you are missing out. Basketball is the fastest growing sport and people all over the world are playing the game. The NBA game is still on the incline and the best is yet to come.

Recognize.

How come no one ever scored 100 points in game before Wilt? How come no one has done it since?

Ditto 50PPG?

What you overlook is that if Shaq played in the 60's he wouldn't be able to change teams at his leisure, he'd be locked in to whereever he played and if you think he doesn't need help from his teamates you must have missed all those Horry last seconders...Fisher hitting 70% not to mention .04......Teams weren't able to aquite FA talent as easily as they are now....It was a different world back then...

And while I see your point with Bill Russell to an extent, he had more help than any player in history...I wouldn't be so quick to say Chamberlain wouldn't be able to hold his own...

I have seen Drob and Hakeem flat out own Shaq...

You act like Shaq could guard fast Centers that were superior athletes...he couldn't, he can't...he's never been able to do that...I don't know what makes you think he'd be able to stop Wilt...he couldn't stop Drob or Hakeem...

What makes you think he could stop the skyhook? Shaq's not that great of a defender.

Shaq is the guy benefitting from playing in a watereddown era...for his position....at least as much as Wilt and Russell did.

[timvp]

Whottt is the only human alive who can turn any conversation into a Defending David Robinson After School Special.

:sleep

[whottt]

timvp is the only person in the world who thinks Shaq would have been better off with Avery Johnson than Penny, Kobe or Dwayne Wade.

Nice of you to ignore the fact that my post really had nothing to do with David Robinson...and more to do with the flaws in your argument.

Also nice of you to ignore the fact that Shaq got his butt kicked on some teams much better than just about any other C in history.

[timvp]

I'll go you one better...I think a guy 6'7 weighing 210lbs is capable of guarding Shaq...in fact I think he is capable of sweeping Shaq...

Watch the 95-96 playoffs when Shaq had a total meltown and averaged about a foul out per game?

WTF? That was the 72-10 Bulls. Longley and Wennington guarded him more than Rodman did. Did you watch that series?




Yeah, nothing says impressive like getting swept on a team that has Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Eddie Jones etc....

And what happened to him last year?

Look up all the years Wilt failed. It was even more than Shaq ... who admittedly got owned a few years.



Shaq's always had a good supporting cast...he won titles when Phil Jackson became his coach.

I give Shaq credit for that though...he chooses teams with a purpose...You didn't seem him okaying a trade to the Atlanta Hawks did you?

Shaq has always had an All NBA Guard on his team...including the years he made the finals.


Count the Hall of Famers Wilt and Russ played with. I dare you.



Yeah? And if you took Nolan Ryan from 1973 and dropped him into todays world he'd still have a 100 MPH fast ball that no one could hit...Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would still be able to crush the ball 500 feet with regularity...

Baseball's Golden Era has already passed. Nobody plays baseball anymore. So yeah, I agree with the above.


You overlook the fact that rules were different back then...Shaq would be stopped the same way Wilt was stopped...by fouling him.

Have you heard of Hack-A-Shaq? Hasn't seemed to work too well.




And Shaq's biggest success came in the hugest market...on a team with a HOF guard, a coach that already had 6 rings by the time he coached Shaq...and a GM whose talent aquisition abilities are legendary.

The Heat are championship contenders with him and the Lakers suck without him. Add it up.

The Celtics were back winning more than ever a few years after Russell retired.






How come no one ever scored 100 points in game before Wilt? How come no one has done it since?

Ditto 50PPG?

Because he was being guarded by Ryan Bowens and the league has improved since then.



What you overlook is that if Shaq played in the 60's he wouldn't be able to change teams at his leisure, he'd be locked in to whereever he played and if you think he doesn't need help from his teamates you must have missed all those Horry last seconders...Fisher hitting 70% not to mention .04......Teams weren't able to aquite FA talent as easily as they are now....It was a different world back then...

Yeah, so? Again, go count the Hall of Famers Wilt and Russ played with.


And while I see your point with Bill Russell to an extent, he had more help than any player in history...I wouldn't be so quick to say Chamberlain wouldn't be able to hold his own...

Chamberlain was one of the biggest playoff underachievers ever ... until he got enough talent around him.


I have seen Drob and Hakeem flat out own Shaq...

Yeah, so have I.


You act like Shaq could guard fast Centers that were superior athletes...he couldn't, he can't...he's never been able to do that...I don't know what makes you think he'd be able to stop Wilt...he couldn't stop Drob or Hakeem...

Besides Wilt, there'd be nobody close to his size. If you thought he destroys centers of today, imagine what he would do against those 6'7 200 pounders.



Shaq is the guy benefitting from playing in a watereddown era...for his position....at least as much as Wilt and Russell did.

It wasn't watered down in the Wilt and Russell era. It just wasn't built yet. Basketball wasn't a popular sport.

[BronxCowboy]

Timvp, Wilt had a much more complete game than Shaq. If Shaq played in that era, it would be no contest because Shaq would foul out in the first half of every game, and that's assuming that he only commits offensive fouls. Shaq gets more favorable calls today than anybody. That wouldn't have happened back then. I don't know much about Russell's game, but I've seen enough of Wilt and Kareem to recognize that they both had a much more extensive repertoir than Shaq. Get rid off the bullshit "superstar rules," call fouls, call 3 seconds once in a while, and Shaq is just big, not great.

[whottt]

WTF? That was the 72-10 Bulls. Longley and Wennington guarded him more than Rodman did. Did you watch that series?

Yeah I did...and while I won't deny that Wennington and Longley got minutes on Shaq...I know for a fact Rodman guarded him extensively in that series, I remember Rodman getting Shaq so pissed off he was on the verge of getting himself ejected from just about every game in that series.

I remember being infuriated at the realization that Rodman could have been put on Hakeem for us and done an excellent job.

This is going to be one of those things like,"was Drob doubled in the 94-95 WCF"..it's very subjective...but Rodman did guard Shaq and he did piss Shaq off enough to where Shaq started picking up a ton of fouls(offensive and defensive) because he was mad.

Rodman "Bowened" him.





Look up all the years Wilt failed. It was even more than Shaq ... who admittedly got owned a few years.

Look at all the years Wilt's season ended in the finals or against the eventual champions...And the Celtics usually had about double the number of HOF'ers as Wilt.






Count the Hall of Famers Wilt and Russ played with. I dare you.

Let's separate Wilt from Russell here for a second...Russell played with I believe,5-7 other Hall of Famer every year of his career....and that has a lot more to do with Chamberlain not having about 8 other titles than anything else. It takes a team to win a title...ask Tim Duncan.





Have you heard of Hack-A-Shaq? Hasn't seemed to work too well.

It hasn't worked too well on teams that had all world guards...it's worked quite well when he hasn't, which hasn't been often.

And the reason it doesn't work as well as it used to is because of a rule change implemented because of Wilt Chamberlain.

It'll still work though...it'd work a lot better if you could foul Shaq and put him on the line with or without the ball...like they used to do to Wilt.





The Heat are championship contenders with him and the Lakers suck without him. Add it up.

So basically you could have taken Kobe off those title teams and just plugged...oh say...Vinny Del Negro or Smitty into the 2 guard slot and rolled to those titles?

I don't think so and neither do you...




Celtics were back winning more than ever a few years after Russell retired.

Yeah...with great teams featuring more HOF'ers than just about any other team in the NBA....like all their other titles.







lain was one of the biggest playoff underachievers ever ... until he got enough talent around him.

Yeah..and so was Shaq until he got a HOF 2 guard...easily one of the best ever to play the game and arguably the best coach ever...not to mention a hardened crew of vets that hit big shots and won series than would not have otherwise been won.





Wilt, there'd be nobody close to his size. If you thought he destroys centers of today, imagine what he would do against those 6'7 200 pounders.

That's just it...you act like there are more great Centers in todays NBA then there were back then...it's really not true...as a Rose fan you should know height isn't everything...and while the average C maybe be better skilled today...if I have to pick a group of great C I am gonna go with that era over this one...

I don't know about you but I like Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, Unseld, Thurmond, etc...better than Shaq and Yao.





't watered down in the Wilt and Russell era. It just wasn't built yet. Basketball wasn't a popular sport.


The Center is the weakest position in the NBA today...

And Shaq has been owned by teams with Greg Ostertag and Luc Longley
as their starting Center.

Shaq may have put up better numbers than in this era...but he wasn't gonna stop Wilt from being Wilt head to head or otherwise....


...and he also wasn't going to beat far superior teams...he hasn't done it in this era, even against teams whose weak spot was C...why would he have done it in that era?

[Rummpd]

Again, those who don't think Chamberlain was strong enough to hold off Shaq are wrong. Sports Illustrated showed a picture once of him holding two players sitting in each hand with his arms out stretched. The guy threw a discus, ran track, high jumped etc at near Olympic levels. His body fat has been estimated at 5% or so. There were seasons that he averaged playing 46+ minutes at a frentic pace. In his prime, the more athletic Chamberlain would have gone up, around, over and through Shaq before Shaq ever knew what hit him. Plus again, where is the complete game of Shaq?, Chamberlain routinely averaged over 20 boards a game, and later led the league in assists.

For all that Bill Russell was an also incredibly strong man who had an iron will. He would not have back down from Shaq no way period. For those that think these two went up against small fry and hacks check out the stats and size of of one Nate Thurmond sometime, or Lanier early in his career.

[whottt]

I think that if Shaq's career had started in 1984 he wouldn't be as hyped as he is now and his numbers probably wouldn't be as dominating....Shaq can dominate on offense...but he's never been able to stop another dominant C either....and most of them are more versatile than he is.

Shaq is very much a product of this era...he's also a product of the league backing and marketing him as much as humanly possible from the day he entered the NBA....for the most part...looking at the rule changes they implemented...other than the FT rule I think the NBA was against Wilt.

And like Rump mentioned...Wilt was a track and field star in high jump, long jump and sprinting...

I don't care if we dropped Shaq back to 1956 he wasn't going to be able to do that....

He wouldn't have been Wilt, he wouldn't have been able to stop Wilt...he wouldn't have put up the numbers Wilt put up...JMO.

[whottt]

For all that Bill Russell was an also incredibly strong man who had an iron will. He would not have back down from Shaq no way period. For those that think these two went up against small fry and hacks check out the stats and size of of one Nate Thurmond sometime, or Lanier early in his career.

Russell played on the a team with the most political power, the most talent, and the most money in the NBA, he was surrounded by HOF'er in their primes every year of his career...he may have been a big part of those teams...but those were great teams with or without Russell. Just like the late 90's bulls were a title contender even without Jordan. I don't think Russell could really stop Shaq...but I don't think Shaq would have much more success against those Celtic teams than Wilt did.

[Spurminator]

Let's not forget that Wilt and Russell didn't have the benefit of the three point line dragging defenders away. And I'd be interested to see if Shaq could keep his physique in their weight training facilities... it's been hard enough for him to stay in shape even with today's advanced machines, equipment and supplements.

[Rummpd]

What separated Russell was not size strength but a will to win and an inate intelligence for the game. I read an autobiograpy on Russell and his IQ was in the genius level with a photographic memory. By accounts he used to hyper-ventillate and work himself into a rage and study game tape before anyone else did that. Don't under-estimate his ability to play Shaq, he is like a Ben Wallace, he may have needed some help but he would have somehow just gotten it done.

[wildbill2u]

As far as athleticism, Wilt was a freak of nature, so athletically gifted and strong that he could sprint for the entire 40+ minutes per game he played. Watching Shaq lumber around is painful to watch sometimes. Wilt was taller, stronger, faster, and more gracefully athletic and much better an overall athlete than Shaq even into his 30s.

Yet he was also gifted with 'touch' and he developed the first finger roll--long before Gervin came along. As well as an unstoppable fade away jumper. And Russell and Chamberlain AVERAGED over 22 rebounds per game for their careers in an era when the defenses weren't drawn away from the basket by the three point shot.

[TIM VP quote: Um, for as great as Bill Russell was in his day, he was only 6-foot-9 and 215 pounds. That's about the size of Sean Elliott and Stephen Jackson. So you are telling me that a player of that size could guard Shaq?]

Speaking of shorter centers being unable to guard Shaq today--Aren't you one of the guys who's always lauding Malik for being able to defend against Shaq? No way he could have guarded Chamberlain. Not for a minute.

[san antonio spurs]

this would've been a good battle blog.
and tiMVP would loose on this one.
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