Kobe makes his teammates better

[Lord Vader]

Do people agree with this?

[21_Blessings]

If they don't they're idiots and know nothing about basketball.

[Lord Vader]

I mean just look how much better Gasol is now than when he was in Memphis. Bynum and Ariza would be nowhere near where they are today w/o Kobe. And Smush Fucking Parker played decent when he was a Laker, now he's not playing with Kobe, and he's out of the League. I still cant believe Smush was ever in the league

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yes Kobe makes his teammates better, did anyone say otherwise or is this a pointless thread?

[IronMexican]

We've been having some pretty shitty threads since last week.

[IronMexican]

We've been having some pretty shitty threads since last week.

Anyone agree?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

yes

[NRHector]

Hell yea he makes them better because if he doesn't, he'll throw them under the bus or demands to trade them, do you agree?

[JamStone]

Some teammates, yes. Others, no. The answer is both.

The last couple seasons, in particular, he's been better at actively helping teammates with gameplans and strategies and plays, even during games. He hasn't always been that way though. On the court, when Kobe gets doubled and triple-teamed, it gives teammates more opportunities to score and make plays. But, there are also times where he forces shots against those doubles and triples anyway. Even this past season, there were stretches not only in games but for stretches of games where he'd play selfishly because he felt it was the best way for the Lakers to win games. That doesn't help teammates develop.

As far as non-game leadership, that's also a mixed bag. His work ethic, crass personality, and stubborn determination can work both ways. For teammates that are headstrong and can take criticism and a butt-kicking every now and then, I think Kobe would make them better. Guys like Jordan Farmar and Luke Walton are probably better players than they were when they first joined the Lakers in large part to that aspect of Kobe's personality. Not that they're great players, but they're better players than they were before.

Teammates that don't like to be pushed by other teammates and get intimidated easily and don't like the way Kobe might push them, they probably shut him off and Kobe doesn't help make them better players. Guys like Brian Cook or Kwame Brown were probably not mentally or emotionally tough enough to accept Kobe's pushing and criticism. I think the jury is still out on guys like Bynum and Vujacic. Bynum is better, but I don't think I attribute it to Kobe as much as just his own personal development and maybe Kareem. Sasha seems like he's able to take Kobe's personality but he still sucks and probably has gotten worse especially this past season.

The answer is both yes and no.

[Culburn369]

Do people agree with this?

No. Kobe, unlike say, Magic or Jordan does not make teammates better. But, where Kobe thrives is having better teammates around him. This year's edition of Gasol made Kobe better. Last year's edition of Gasol made Kobe worse. This year's edition of Odom made Kobe better. Smush Parker destroyed Kobe's will to win, to carry on. Kobe does not influence, but, is easily influenced.

[redzero]

If Darth Kobe doesn't get the ball, his teammates can expect a force choke in the near future.

http://www.bustabucket.com/images/stories/kobe-vader.jpg

[Lord Vader]

im not trying to make shitty threads, i was only trying to start discussion

[Spursfan092120]

insecure Laker fans.

[Amaso]

Some teammates, yes. Others, no. The answer is both.

The last couple seasons, in particular, he's been better at actively helping teammates with gameplans and strategies and plays, even during games. He hasn't always been that way though. On the court, when Kobe gets doubled and triple-teamed, it gives teammates more opportunities to score and make plays. But, there are also times where he forces shots against those doubles and triples anyway. Even this past season, there were stretches not only in games but for stretches of games where he'd play selfishly because he felt it was the best way for the Lakers to win games. That doesn't help teammates develop.

As far as non-game leadership, that's also a mixed bag. His work ethic, crass personality, and stubborn determination can work both ways. For teammates that are headstrong and can take criticism and a butt-kicking every now and then, I think Kobe would make them better. Guys like Jordan Farmar and Luke Walton are probably better players than they were when they first joined the Lakers in large part to that aspect of Kobe's personality. Not that they're great players, but they're better players than they were before.

Teammates that don't like to be pushed by other teammates and get intimidated easily and don't like the way Kobe might push them, they probably shut him off and Kobe doesn't help make them better players. Guys like Brian Cook or Kwame Brown were probably not mentally or emotionally tough enough to accept Kobe's pushing and criticism. I think the jury is still out on guys like Bynum and Vujacic. Bynum is better, but I don't think I attribute it to Kobe as much as just his own personal development and maybe Kareem. Sasha seems like he's able to take Kobe's personality but he still sucks and probably has gotten worse especially this past season.

The answer is both yes and no.

Players that can't handle Kobe's way of leadership are the ones who get shipped out or are at the end of the bench. Kobe is a good leader for a veteran/talented group like the Lakers have right now. He's not a great leader but he's a pretty good one.

[NRHector]

Players that can't handle Kobe's way of leadership are the ones who get shipped out or are at the end of the bench. Kobe is a good leader for a veteran/talented group like the Lakers have right now. He's not a great leader but he's a pretty good one.That sounds like Iran, one more dictator in the world, "Don't protest, say anything or I'll cut you head off."

[xellos88330]

Kobe pre-Gasol, no.
Kobe presently yes. I guess Gasol must have taught him something about carrying a team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I guess Gasol must have taught him something about carrying a team.


That's stupid. Gasol has 0 playoff wins as the best player on his team.

[VivaPopovich]

sure

but his personality, verbal abuse, verbal beratement, trash talk is bad for the long term psychological make-up of a team. phil jackson was the biggest reason they won that ring

Phil Jackson makes his players better should've been the title of this thread instead

[Amaso]

Kobe pre-Gasol, no.
Kobe presently yes. I guess Gasol must have taught him something about carrying a team.

Before Gasol, Kobe made Luke Walton look like a starter in this league and made Smush Parker look like a rotation player.

[JamStone]

Players that can't handle Kobe's way of leadership are the ones who get shipped out or are at the end of the bench. Kobe is a good leader for a veteran/talented group like the Lakers have right now. He's not a great leader but he's a pretty good one.

Your point is lost, because that still means that Kobe does not make those teammates better. There are teammates he cannot and does not make better. Brian Cook was with the Lakers for four full seasons and he started games his third and fourth years with the Lakers. He wasn't at the end of the bench and it took the Lakers four years to ship him out.

[JamStone]

Before Gasol, Kobe made Luke Walton look like a starter in this league and made Smush Parker look like a rotation player.

Luke Walton never looked like a starter in this league. And Smush Parker was horrible with the Lakers.

Having decent stats or starting games doesn't mean a player is better because of another player.

[NRHector]

What does Duncan, Garnett, James, Nowitzki, Howard and Yao have in common?They make their teammates better by getting too much attention from the other teams

[Culburn369]

Luke Walton never looked like a starter in this league. And Smush Parker was horrible with the Lakers.

But, at last in these Finals Walton was able to put a series together where he did not harm us. That had never happened before. In these Finals Walton's impacted with brevity & clarity. Ipso facto, he made Kobe better. Kobe did not have to wring his hands, roll his eyes, and watch Walton's every move--to the point of almost jinxing the poor thing.

Smush Parker was hopeless. That SOB drove me near to tears many times. He was not a professional basketball player and had no business being anywhere near the Lakers. I'll never understand that commitment to him. It was almost surreal.

Then that hump Riley thought he'd make an ass out of the Lakers by taking Parker into Florida and having him amount to something...Ha!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

IMO "making teammates better" is an extremely vague term. If you're a PG that the other team feels the need to guard with a SG or SF, that alone is making a teammate better IMO.

[sonic21]

Do people agree with this?

lol insecure laker fan

[DenDen]

Totally agree. Laker without Kobe= shit crumb

[21_Blessings]

Teammates that don't like to be pushed by other teammates and get intimidated easily and don't like the way Kobe might push them, they probably shut him off and Kobe doesn't help make them better players. Guys like Brian Cook or Kwame Brown were probably not mentally or emotionally tough enough to accept Kobe's pushing and criticism. I think the jury is still out on guys like Bynum and Vujacic. Bynum is better, but I don't think I attribute it to Kobe as much as just his own personal development and maybe Kareem. Sasha seems like he's able to take Kobe's personality but he still sucks and probably has gotten worse especially this past season.

Brian Cook actually looked serviceable playing next to Kobe. Which is why he was the main piece in the Ariza trade (Evans was expiring, Cook had 3 years on his deal). Now? Doesn't look like he belongs in the NBA and probably won't be soon.

As for Kwame he has failed miserably where he has gone. But that doesn't change the fact that when he had some solid stretches playing next to Kobe and had some big playoff games where looked like he might still pan out. Looked much better than in Memphis or Detroit.

Then theres Smush Parker. Kobe made the man a millionaire.


The answer is both yes and no.

No the answer is yes if you're not clueless. That is unless you want to say the same thing about Bird, Magic and Jordan. All three had similar competitive drives to Kobe and no patience for losing or lazy, inconsistent play from their teammates.

[JamStone]

There's a reason why I categorized "making teammates better" in two ways. One way is by a player's mere presence on the court that allows teammates to get easier scoring opportunities or rebounds or assists because teams are focusing their attention on that one player. Another way of making teammates better involves less statistical tangibles and more off-the-court, intangible things like teammate-to-teammate coaching, motivation, setting a professional example on and off the court, building trust and confidence with one another. Until the last two seasons, Kobe didn't do a good job at the latter.

As for the former way of "making teammates better," Kobe has done that most of his career even when he was selfish because teams focused on stopping him. But, it depends on how and what you mean by "making teammates better." Theo Ratliff and Eric Snow had their best statistical seasons playing with Allen Iverson. Do you think Allen Iverson made Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff better players?

Someone already mentioned how it's a vague term/phrase, "making teammates better." It is. What are you asking when you ask if a player does? Are you asking about their mere presence and talent forcing teams to focus on them so that teammates can get easier scoring opportunities or steals and rebounds and other stats? Or are you asking about how they are as a teammate and leader on and off the court?

From only a basketball point of view, during games, on the court, Kobe's mere talent allowed for players like Brian Cook and Smush Parker put up better stats than on other teams where they didn't get as much opportunity to play and didn't get as wide open looks and such. That's one way to make teammates better. Spending time to motivate your teammates in practice and in the weight room, helping them how to conduct themselves professionally, giving them tips on form and technique, those are things that also make teammates better, and those are things Kobe has not been known for until the last season or two.

There's more than one way to help make a teammate better.

[JamStone]

Right. I said Kobe hadn't shown that type of leadership until the last season or two. He hasn't always helped make his teammates become better players in that way.

[anakha]

Any other overly defensive Kobe fans want to challenge JamStone on this one?

[21_Blessings]

Another way of making teammates better involves less statistical tangibles and more off-the-court, intangible things like teammate-to-teammate coaching, motivation, setting a professional example on and off the court, building trust and confidence with one another. Until the last two seasons, Kobe didn't do a good job at the latter.

He did. How are you quantifying that claim again, because the Lakers weren't that good and Kobe shot the ball too much?

Caron Butler came out and said playing with Kobe every day in practice made him a better player. As did most of team USA. Players like Kobe make his teammates better by the mere fact you get to watch first hand and experience how one of the best to ever play actually got to be that good. If you don't think a guy like Kobe Bryant hasn't been pushing his teammates to the next level in practice then you don't know much about his history.

Lakaluva already mentioned the Ariza thing. Kobe's been doing things like that for a long time. Ask Sasha Vujacic and Derek Fisher.


Theo Ratliff and Eric Snow had their best statistical seasons playing with Allen Iverson. Do you think Allen Iverson made Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff better players?

Are we really comparing Mr. "we talkin bout practice?" to Kobe Bryant. Haha.


Spending time to motivate your teammates in practice and in the weight room, helping them how to conduct themselves professionally, giving them tips on form and technique, those are things that also make teammates better, and those are things Kobe has not been known for until the last season or two.

Kobe has been known for those things for many years, long before the last two seasons. But I wouldn't expect someone like you that doesn't follow team closely to know that. To the casual, retarded basketball fans Kobe is nothing more than a selfish ballhog that raped some white girl in Colorado.


Right. I said Kobe hadn't shown that type of leadership until the last season or two. He hasn't always helped make his teammates become better players in that way.

Again, Derek Fisher, Sasha, Caron etc have all said differently in the past. Your opinion is factually wrong here.

[anakha]

I wasn't challenging dip shit, I was just adding on. I agree with Jams assessment.

Was I referring to you?

You may or may not be a Kobe fan, but you sure have the defensive part down cold. :rolleyes

[stretch]

he absolutely does.

the ONLY knock I have had on Kobe is that he sometimes has leadership problems, but more so in the sense that he has bad shot selection as a leader. sometimes he doesnt know when he is and isn't supposed to be shooting, and far too often he takes jumpers when he should be driving and penetrating. if he can get those things down better, he can most definitely equal or even perhaps surpass jordan as a player. but i feel that those were the issues that held them back from winning it all last year, and they were also the issues that caused them to struggle at times through the playoffs, especially against a heavily depleted Houston team. if he can get that issue fixed, there is no reason the lakers shouldnt 3-peat again, barring any unusually good moves. but considering how long he has been in the league, and that he still hasnt gotten that fixed, i have my doubts that he ever will.

doesnt change the fact that he is simply one of the greatest players ever. its unfortunate for him that he has to live in the shadow of Jordan and gets hated on for it so much.

[stretch]

Again, Derek Fisher, Sasha, Caron etc have all said differently in the past. Your opinion is factually wrong here.

And there have been players who left the Lakers who thought otherwise, such as Deaven George. Of course Fisher and Sasha will lobby for Kobe. If they didn't, it would start all kinds of lockerroom drama and media hell.

His opinion isnt any more factually wrong than yours. There have been mixed reviews on Kobe in the past, but the only thing we truly know is that right now, he is known as being a pretty good lockerroom guy.

[Kobe™]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/njsdesigns/TREVOR_ARIZA_LAKERS_PICS.jpg