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View Full Version : Paradise Valley, AZ: Red light camera fraud



Winehole23
07-01-2009, 11:08 AM
Arizona: Group Forces City to Refund Tickets Over Short Yellow (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/28/2823.asp)

Paradise Valley, Arizona refunds 1063 red light camera tickets after short yellow time uncovered.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/pix/pvyellow.jpgA group campaigning to eliminate photo enforcement in Arizona has forced Paradise Valley to admit that it has been shortchanging drivers. A volunteer with the group Camerafraud.com (http://camerafraud.wordpress.com/) discovered the city used illegally short yellows at the intersection of Tatum Boulevard and McDonald Drive. The motorist was mailed a red light camera ticket for allegedly entering the intersection just 0.2 seconds after the light had turned red.

"I was nailed with a ticket at an intersection that left me very perplexed because I didn't think I was going to get a ticket," David K. wrote on June 16. "I thought I was close enough to the intersection to pass the limit line before the light turned red. Well, I thought wrong because the duration for the yellow light on a 40 MPH speed limit road was only three seconds."

David measured the other intersection approaches and found they used a four-second yellow. All of the engineering guidelines suggest a bare minimum of four seconds be used at intersections with a posted speed limit of 40 MPH. Wondering why the approach equipped with a camera had the shortest yellow, David called the city. The signal in question was re-timed to a duration of 4.3 seconds of yellow on the very next day. Paradise Valley is required to add the extra 0.3 seconds because of a curve in the road that affects signal visibility.

Another member named Shauna received a ticket while the signal was timed at three seconds.

"I am almost never in Paradise Valley, so was not at all familiar with the road or the length of the yellow lights," Shauna wrote on June 20. "When I was flashed, I was shocked. I would have had to slam on my brakes -- and I was actually driving slower than the speed limit -- to stop for the yellow, and then all of a sudden, it was red, and the flash went off."

Five days later, Shauna received notification that her ticket had been canceled. Altogether, 1063 motorists issued red light camera tickets between May 6 and June 16 will receive refunds if paid or have their citations canceled. Most have not paid. This represents a loss of $193,466 in potential revenue to the city.

The Texas Transportation Institute documented the importance of yellow timing in a 2004 report (view study (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/02/243.asp)). Cutting one second from the yellow time formula endorsed by the Institute of Transportation Engineers (ITE) boosts violation income by 110 percent. Adding one extra second beyond the bare minimum allowed under the ITE formula slashed violations by 53 percent. Lawmakers in the state of Georgia recognized the value of longer yellows with a law mandating one extra second. Since it took effect in January, violations plunged 80 percent (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2720.asp) and profit dropped to a level that has forced seven cities to cancel their photo enforcement contracts.

View a video of the signal with the yellow set at three seconds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_ipKwTYZw).

coyotes_geek
07-01-2009, 11:31 AM
Anything for a buck.

Viva Las Espuelas
07-01-2009, 11:42 AM
i think these are more of a distraction. especially at night. there's times where i clearly have the green, no it's not showing yellow, and for no reason that damn flash goes off and pretty much lights up the whole street. it clearly draws your attention towards the flash.

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 11:55 AM
It my or may not have been intentional. I see many short timed yellows here in Portland. They don't have cameras though. I just hope if they add a camera, they retime them.

Bender
07-01-2009, 12:57 PM
does TX use these cameras?

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 01:18 PM
It my or may not have been intentional.You'll try to justify any official action, won't you?

What I want to know is how do you come by your bona fides, WC? I lost mine a long time ago, but am trying to resuscitate it. Yours apparently cannot be suppressed. :lol

Obstructed_View
07-01-2009, 01:22 PM
[Five days later, Shauna received notification that her ticket had been canceled. Altogether, 1063 motorists issued red light camera tickets between May 6 and June 16 will receive refunds if paid or have their citations canceled. Most have not paid. This represents a loss of $193,466 in potential revenue to the city.

I fail to see how not scamming the public out of money or giving back money swindled from them can be considered a "loss".

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 01:34 PM
They already booked the revenue, most likely. Or built it into their budget assumptions, after they got the tip from Texas on how to maximize the fines.

IMO we shouldn't rule out that they already spent it, leaving them in an actual hole.

HighLowLobForBig-50
07-01-2009, 02:07 PM
does TX use these cameras?

yes , they do. i work down here in corpus and my brother lives here. he has gotten 2 tickets in the mail for running a red with a cute little picture of his car. now i wanna time the yellows here because they are incredibly short. its almost like a trap. you can be doing the speed limit and next thing you know you either have to gun the shit outta your car or slam on the brakes and end up in the middle of the intersection.

coyotes_geek
07-01-2009, 02:17 PM
does TX use these cameras?

The cameras are here, but in the governmental sense it's the cities who are using them, not the state. I.e. the City of Austin has them, TxDOT does not.

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 02:47 PM
You'll try to justify any official action, won't you?

What I want to know is how do you come by your bona fides, WC? I lost mine a long time ago, but am trying to resuscitate it. Yours apparently cannot be suppressed. :lol
I didn't justify the action, I just said it might not have been intentional. I will not justify intentional shot timing for revenue. I simply did not jump to the conclusion it was rigged. Those of you who do without evidence are the ones who lose bonefides. Or... jump to conclusions...

Red light camera's have been debated in Oregon for some time now. Timing is critical. The study linked is the same thing I have heard on local talk radio. The question becomes if the red light timing was coincidence, or intended. Either way, it would be impossible for anyone taking the case to court to be found guilty by a reasonable Justice because the timing is shorter than reaction and braking standards.

Extra Stout
07-01-2009, 02:48 PM
WC gets all serious when he's stoned.

Marcus Bryant
07-01-2009, 02:59 PM
Surprise, surprise. Law enforcement focuses on extracting revenue from motorists instead of, say, investigating real crimes.

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 03:06 PM
WC gets all serious when he's stoned.
Well, I haven't been stoned for about 7 weeks now, so I must not be serious, right?

coyotes_geek
07-01-2009, 03:11 PM
Surprise, surprise. Law enforcement focuses on extracting revenue from motorists instead of, say, investigating real crimes.

Evidently crime doesn't pay.............

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 03:14 PM
Surprise, surprise. Law enforcement focuses on extracting revenue from motorists instead of, say, investigating real crimes.
That's probably what they are doing. Still, cameras are a cost effective way of enforcing traffic laws rather than increasing the traffic police. I don't care if the red light cameras are for increasing revenues, just have proper timing and triggers. How the trigger is tripped is also a concern. Double pictures at a set timing are an important proper thing to do. This establishes speed, and if someone tripped the trigger by stopping just past the trigger point. For a long time now, in Oregon, that has been the debate. It is feared that red light usage is only to extract revenue. Point is that if it really is for safety, the yellow timing would be (if I remember right) one second per 10 MPH + 1 sec.

RandomGuy
07-01-2009, 04:53 PM
cameras are a cost effective way of enforcing traffic laws rather than increasing the traffic police


Lawmakers in the state of Georgia recognized the value of longer yellows with a law mandating one extra second. Since it took effect in January, violations plunged 80 percent and profit dropped to a level that has forced seven cities to cancel their photo enforcement contracts.


:lmao

I haz reading fail.

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 06:24 PM
:lmao

I haz reading fail.

Did I ever say it should be profitable? I am for Red Light Cameras to enforce traffic. I said they cost less than police. Not that they make a profit.

Bender
07-01-2009, 06:28 PM
I've seen many "camera looking things" on top of street lights in san antonio, but I thought they were part of the signaling triggers... like when a car pulls up and the light needs to change...

Wild Cobra
07-01-2009, 06:31 PM
I've seen many "camera looking things" on top of street lights in san antonio, but I thought they were part of the signaling triggers... like when a car pulls up and the light needs to change...
They might be just that. I've seen setups at every intersection where if you're speeding, the light changes to yellow, then red to slow you down. Then you get your picture taken also if you run it.

Bender
07-01-2009, 07:23 PM
I've run plenty of them, even red if there is no one else on the road. Nothing in the mail yet.

coyotes_geek
07-01-2009, 08:39 PM
I've seen many "camera looking things" on top of street lights in san antonio, but I thought they were part of the signaling triggers... like when a car pulls up and the light needs to change...

You are correct. Video Identification Vehicle Detection systems, or VIVIDs.