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View Full Version : cap-n-trade == doo doo, but pass it anyway



DarrinS
07-01-2009, 03:31 PM
Like the bill, this op-ed is a piece of excrement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/opinion/01friedman.html?_r=1





There is much in the House cap-and-trade energy bill that just passed that I absolutely hate. It is too weak in key areas and way too complicated in others. A simple, straightforward carbon tax would have made much more sense than this Rube Goldberg contraption. It is pathetic that we couldn’t do better. It is appalling that so much had to be given away to polluters. It stinks. It’s a mess. I detest it.


Now let’s get it passed in the Senate and make it law.

Why? Because, for all its flaws, this bill is the first comprehensive attempt by America to mitigate climate change by putting a price on carbon emissions. Rejecting this bill would have been read in the world as America voting against the reality and urgency of climate change and would have undermined clean energy initiatives everywhere.

More important, my gut tells me that if the U.S. government puts a price on carbon, even a weak one, it will usher in a new mind-set among consumers, investors, farmers, innovators and entrepreneurs that in time will make a big difference — much like the first warnings that cigarettes could cause cancer. The morning after that warning no one ever looked at smoking the same again.

Ditto if this bill passes. Henceforth, every investment decision made in America — about how homes are built, products manufactured or electricity generated — will look for the least-cost low-carbon option. And weaving carbon emissions into every business decision will drive innovation and deployment of clean technologies to a whole new level and make energy efficiency much more affordable. That ain’t beanbag.

Now that the bill is heading for the Senate, though, we must, ideally, try to improve it, but, at a minimum, guard against diluting it any further. To do that we need the help of the three parties most responsible for how weak the bill already is: the Republican Party, President Barack Obama and We the People.

This bill is not weak because its framers, Representatives Henry Waxman and Ed Markey, wanted it this way. “They had to make the compromises they did,” said Dan Becker, director of the Safe Climate Campaign, “because almost every House Republican voted against the bill and did nothing to try to improve it. So to get it passed, they needed every coal-state Democrat, and that meant they had to water it down to bring them on board.”

What are Republicans thinking? It is not as if they put forward a different strategy, like a carbon tax. Does the G.O.P. want to be the party of sex scandals and polluters or does it want to be a partner in helping America dominate the next great global industry: E.T. — energy technology? How could Republicans become so anti-environment, just when the country is going green?

Historically speaking, “Republicans can claim as much credit for America’s environmental leadership as Democrats,” noted Glenn Prickett, senior vice president at Conservation International. “The two greatest environmental presidents in American history were Teddy Roosevelt, who created our national park system, and Richard Nixon, whose administration gave us the Clean Air Act and the Environmental Protection Agency.” George Bush Sr. signed the 1993 Rio Treaty, to preserve biodiversity.

Yes, this bill’s goal of reducing U.S. carbon emissions to 17 percent below 2005 levels by 2020 is nowhere near what science tells us we need to mitigate climate change. But it also contains significant provisions to prevent new buildings from becoming energy hogs, to make our appliances the most energy efficient in the world and to help preserve forests in places like the Amazon.

We need Republicans who believe in fiscal conservatism and conservation joining this legislation in the Senate. We want a bill that transforms the whole country not one that just threads a political needle. I hope they start listening to green Republicans like Dick Lugar, George Shultz and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I also hope we will hear more from President Obama. Something feels very calculating in how he has approached this bill, as if he doesn’t quite want to get his hands dirty, as if he is ready to twist arms in private, but not so much that if the bill goes down he will get tarnished. That is no way to fight this war. He is going to have to mobilize the whole country to pressure the Senate — by educating Americans, with speech after speech, about the opportunities and necessities of a serious climate/energy bill. If he is not ready to risk failure by going all out, failure will be the most likely result.

And then there is We the People. Attention all young Americans: your climate future is being decided right now in the cloakrooms of the Capitol, where the coal lobby holds huge sway. You want to make a difference? Then get out of Facebook and into somebody’s face. Get a million people on the Washington Mall calling for a price on carbon. That will get the Senate’s attention. Play hardball or don’t play at all.

SonOfAGun
07-01-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm a young American. I guess I am suppose to be an MTV watching Al Gore lovin' NBC digesting Greenweek supporting climate change the sky is falling faggot.

Sorry NYTimes.

In honor of this great op-ed I will exhale a little harder to output more carbon into my atmosphere. :toast

TeyshaBlue
07-01-2009, 04:41 PM
I'm a young American. I guess I am suppose to be an MTV watching Al Gore lovin' NBC digesting Greenweek supporting climate change the sky is falling faggot.

Sorry NYTimes.

In honor of this great op-ed I will exhale a little harder to output more carbon into my atmosphere. :toast

I'll throw an extra tire on the grill tonight.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 05:00 PM
My rep voted similar to the banner in the OP.

Doggett admitted it was a crap bill, but reportedly is praying for a Hail Mary from the Senate in the reconciliation process.

(redacted)

Extra Stout
07-01-2009, 05:55 PM
I would have thought our wise overseers would have looked over at their European mentors and their experience with cap-and-trade, and understood that a bad cap-and-trade system is worse than no system at all.

With a bad cap-and-trade system, you get the environmental version of Medicare: all of the costs and none of the benefits of public intervention in the economy. You get a drag on growth that doesn't slow down carbon emissions a single grain of soot, but does funnel a whole bunch of money to well-connected political allies who get the system rigged to their own personal benefit.

It's a marvelous vehicle for graft and corruption. Green-ness? Not so much.

But, by all means, let's make sure we go on with this dog and pony show so our mentors don't have to tell us how disappointed they are in us.

Sometimes I get the feeling environmentalism is just a kind of civic religion, where actually helping the environment doesn't matter near as much as appearing to do so, in order that one be accepted by one's peers, who themselves are also only appearing to care. It's like it's the replacement for mainline Protestantism.

gtownspur
07-01-2009, 06:00 PM
Are you implying that there is such thing as a "good" cap n trade system, becuase i'm not sure if one exist. Spain?

Marcus Bryant
07-01-2009, 06:30 PM
Sometimes I get the feeling environmentalism is just a kind of civic religion, where actually helping the environment doesn't matter near as much as appearing to do so, in order that one be accepted by one's peers, who themselves are also only appearing to care. It's like it's the replacement for mainline Protestantism.

Absolutely. Though I would not circumscribe that faith to solely things environmental. Some of the most ardent fundamentalists I have met have been devout followers of the religion which you describe.

We really have two camps of fundys in this country: those who want to take an existing faith and make it the state religion and those who want to make a religion of the state. I wish both would be infected with the Ebola virus and die.

gtownspur
07-01-2009, 07:03 PM
Absolutely. Though I would not circumscribe that faith to solely things environmental. Some of the most ardent fundamentalists I have met have been devout followers of the religion which you describe.

We really have two camps of fundys in this country: those who want to take an existing faith and make it the state religion and those who want to make a religion of the state. I wish both would be infected with the Ebola virus and die.

So before the elimination of school prayer and abortion, this nation was the Holy Roman Empire part 2?

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 07:22 PM
It's a marvelous vehicle for graft and corruption. Green-ness? Not so much.

But, by all means, let's make sure we go on with this dog and pony show so our mentors don't have to tell us how disappointed they are in us.

Sometimes I get the feeling environmentalism is just a kind of civic religion, where actually helping the environment doesn't matter near as much as appearing to do so, in order that one be accepted by one's peers, who themselves are also only appearing to care. It's like it's the replacement for mainline Protestantism.A sentiment very like this supported Christopher Lasch's speculation that environmentalism -- or any creditable simulation thereof, as you emphasized ES -- is the most likely *conservatism* of the 21st century.

Gaia fetish, bureaucratically dispensed and consumed. Think the end of *Until the End of the World*, with Solveig Dammartin in a tight spacesuit, raising ecological fines from earth orbit.

gtownspur
07-01-2009, 08:07 PM
A sentiment very like this supported Christopher Lasch's speculation that environmentalism -- or any creditable simulation thereof, as you emphasized ES -- is the most likely *conservatism* of the 21st century.

Gaia fetish, bureaucratically dispensed and consumed. Think the end of *Until the End of the World*, with Solveig Dammartin in a tight spacesuit, raising ecological fines from earth orbit.

So now everything with a negavitive connotation that calls for more govt intrusion is assigned to conservatism?

Well, now Marcus Bryant can't bitch.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 08:32 PM
So now everything with a negavitive connotation that calls for more govt intrusion is assigned to conservatism? No.

What I think Lasch and ES were (sort of) talking about was *Environmentalism* as a form of social, industrial or political control via an expanding schedule of fees and mulcts, supported by a bogus, crypto-pagan civil religion.

There's no need to universalize the case.

Marcus Bryant
07-01-2009, 08:34 PM
Instead of resisting government intrusion, "conservatives" have embraced it, so long as it imposes what is acceptable to them.

gtownspur
07-01-2009, 08:35 PM
A sentiment very like this supported Christopher Lasch's speculation that environmentalism -- or any creditable simulation thereof, as you emphasized ES -- is the most likely *conservatism* of the 21st century.

Gaia fetish, bureaucratically dispensed and consumed. Think the end of *Until the End of the World*, with Solveig Dammartin in a tight spacesuit, raising ecological fines from earth orbit.

orly..........................................?

gtownspur
07-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Instead of resisting government intrusion, "conservatives" have embraced it, so long as it imposes what is acceptable to them.
:sleep this is old not because it's not true. But because Marcus Bryant is a hypocrite, unless he was against the Civil Rights act based on libertarian principles, he is also guilty of his own conviction.

Marcus Bryant
07-01-2009, 08:52 PM
I'm assuming you are apologizing for a government which somehow was not subject to the 13th through 15th amendments to the Constitution for a century.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 08:54 PM
orly..........................................?Mer e speculation.

Obiter dicta, as they say in law books.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 08:57 PM
:sleep this is old not because it's not true.You concede to MB, then?

Bender
07-01-2009, 09:36 PM
my Rep voted NO

(Lamar Smith)

Ignignokt
07-01-2009, 09:44 PM
You concede to MB, then?

That conservative positions contradict? where have you been, i talked about this in the Relearning thread.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 09:51 PM
Of course you did.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 09:51 PM
My bad.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 09:58 PM
So before the elimination of school prayer and abortion, this nation was the Holy Roman Empire part 2?Egregious non-sequitur. That's not even close to anything MB said.

Ignignokt
07-01-2009, 10:14 PM
Egregious non-sequitur. That's not even close to anything MB said.

The subject MB talked about is an example of the those particular issues that are brought up as a contradiction of Conservative values when conservatives argue that they are for less govt. They are relevant.

Winehole23
07-01-2009, 10:25 PM
That's only slightly clearer, but your connection to MB's remarks is even more tenuous now IMO.

DarrinS
07-02-2009, 10:01 AM
Sometimes I get the feeling environmentalism is just a kind of civic religion, where actually helping the environment doesn't matter near as much as appearing to do so, in order that one be accepted by one's peers, who themselves are also only appearing to care. It's like it's the replacement for mainline Protestantism.


It is a religion. I still can't believe that people have been sold on the fact that their 3% contribution to a gas that makes up 3% of the atmosphere has the planet on the brink of catastrophe. I guess if you repeat something long enough, people start to treat it as a matter of fact.

It's one thing for the Mommy-state to tax something to incentivise us to use an alternative. But, in this case, what is the alternative?

It's like taxing the shit out of cigarettes to get people to quit. At least there's the patch and nicotine gum. Both are quite pricy alternatives, but at least they are alternatives.