Villanueva comes to terms with Detroit [Archive]

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Kindergarten Cop

07-01-2009, 07:03 PM

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60264/20090701/villanueva_comes_to_terms_with_detroit/

Charlie Villanueva has agreed to a five-year deal with the Pistons. His contract is worth at least $35 million.

RealGM Note: Villanueva had been expected to sign with Cleveland, but with Carlos Boozer remaining in Utah, the Pistons had additional resources to pursue a big.

Spursfan092120

07-01-2009, 07:07 PM

Well there you go...

Thunder Dan

07-01-2009, 07:09 PM

Boozer sticks it to Cleveland yet again

So the Pistons traded Billups for Charlie and Ben-- good deal or not?

Walter Herrmann

07-01-2009, 07:11 PM

Boozer sticks it to Cleveland yet again

So the Pistons traded Billups for Charlie and Ben-- good deal or not?
Considering we probably would have lost in the playoffs again anyways, I'll take it. We got pretty young.

JamStone

07-01-2009, 07:24 PM

Boozer sticks it to Cleveland yet again

So the Pistons traded Billups for Charlie and Ben-- good deal or not?

Tough call. But, it's extremely likely that it will look much more favorable for the Pistons in a couple years.

The Pistons likely don't even make it the NBA Finals this past season anyway, and if they keep Billups, they're in a similar rebuilding mode two years down the line after the 2010-11 season. They would have had some cap space in 2010 but it would have been about $8 million or so. So, it's tough to say. The Pistons are far from being contenders, but they got younger and they've started the rebuilding process instead of having to hold onto the old core and being hamstrung for an extra two seasons before making any major moves.

I'm not crazy about the pick-ups, but I'll take it because it's a major step in rebuilding the team, and it was time to rebuild.

mystargtr34

07-01-2009, 07:35 PM

Not a bad deal. Slightly over paid IMO, but hes a good talent, and you have to overpay for good talent.

JamStone

07-01-2009, 07:38 PM

By NBA standards, I don't think that's overpaying for Villanueva. I think that's pretty good value.

mystargtr34

07-01-2009, 07:45 PM

Are you talking about $40M or $35M? I ready $40M on ESPN now i just saw its $35M in this thread title. Not that big a difference in the big scheme of things but, $35M sounds alot better.

JamStone

07-01-2009, 07:46 PM

I've only read and heard 5 years, $35 million.

Banzai

07-01-2009, 07:48 PM

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/hk.gif (http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/hk.gif)

benefactor

07-01-2009, 07:48 PM

By NBA standards, I don't think that's overpaying for Villanueva. I think that's pretty good value.
Agreed. Anything just over/under the MLE is about right for CV as far as the market for players with his skills goes.

mystargtr34

07-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Sources: Gordon, Villanueva to Pistons

The Detroit Pistons made the biggest early splash in free agency on Wednesday, agreeing to terms with Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.

Former Bulls guard Gordon will receive a five-year, $55 million deal, while former Bucks forward Villanueva gets a five-year deal for $40 million, sources told ESPN.com's Chris Broussard.

Gordon rejected deals from Chicago in excess of $50 million each of the past two seasons. Milwaukee elected to let the 24-year-old Villanueva become an unrestricted free agent earlier this week, after the Bucks determined that matching any restricted free-agent offers would move the team closer to the luxury tax threshold and limit changing the roster.

The Associated Press first reported the Villanueva signing.

Free agents can't officially sign with new teams until July 8.

Gordon, who was taken third in the 2004 draft by Chicago, led the Bulls in scoring each of the past four seasons. He averaged 20.4 points per game on 45.5 percent shooting last year. For his career, he has a 21.3 points per game average.

Villanueva, the seventh overall pick by Toronto in 2006 who has played the past three seasons with the Bucks, averaged 16.2 points and 6.7 rebounds per game last season.

The Pistons now turn their attention to re-signing forward Antonio McDyess, but they'll have competition from the Cavaliers, Celtics and Spurs.

mystargtr34

07-01-2009, 07:52 PM

Either way, not a huge difference. Just $40M struck me as a fair bit. Id still be happy with the signing though.

What do you think about the Gordon deal?

JamStone

07-01-2009, 07:52 PM

Ok that's the first time I've seen $40 million.

$35 million sounds better, but $40 million is still good value. Not as good obviously. But considering the MLE for five years would probably be around that $35 million mark, I'm still good with it.

JamStone

07-01-2009, 07:54 PM

Lukewarm about Gordon. That's the contract that I think was slightly overpriced but I'm not leaning either way, good or bad. I kind of want to see how everything else plays out with the extra $4 million or so of cap space and any possible trades that will follow.

Vinnie_Johnson

07-01-2009, 08:30 PM

Yes I think it's 11 for Ben and 7 for Chuck.

angelbelow

07-01-2009, 08:45 PM

not a bad value for charlie V, especially if he cotinues to improve.

DPG21920

07-01-2009, 10:22 PM

gaKNOW!blee

07-01-2009, 10:25 PM

I forgot until right now that V and Gordon were college teammates.

DPG21920

07-01-2009, 10:33 PM

JamStone

07-01-2009, 10:36 PM

I do not care how Piston fans try and paint this, it is a massive failure on Detroit's part. They have nothing to build around. No Center, no depth especially at the point guard position and up front.

What cap space will they have to build around Ben and CV and Stuckey? Maybe if they are able to pull off some trades it could help and they will have some cap space next year as well, but are they ok with sucking this year? Then they will have to extend Stuckey soon. I do not see a plan in which building around CV+Ben+Stuckey will succeed. They had better be planning a trade or two..

The same b.s. excuse on how they could not trade Sheed because they were "in the playoff hunt" is now being flipped saying "they would not have won anyways". Bad job by the front office from coaching to players to trades to cap space management.

This is just inaccurate b.s. itself.

The Pistons didn't trade Sheed to the Spurs because if they did the deal many Spurs fans were suggesting, even if they waived Bruce and Oberto to drop their salaries to their only partial guaranteed amounts, the Pistons would have had about $8.5 million less in cap space this summer.

You can say what you want to say about the free agent pick-ups. They're not great. The Pistons aren't contenders. And they won't be for several years if even then. But, it's clear that they are rebuilding. Acquiring Oberto, Kurt Thomas, and Bruce Bowen would have not allowed the Pistons to pick up two free agents this summer. And, next year, there would still be no guarantee they get any of the big name free agents. Dumars didn't want to tank an entire season just to have a chance at a big name superstar. He wanted to rebuild asap.

Don't bring up that stupid shit about not trading Sheed, because it would have specifically affected the Pistons ability to make these moves this summer.

Vinnie_Johnson

07-01-2009, 10:38 PM

JamStone

07-01-2009, 10:39 PM

Pistons, if these numbers are accurate, will be at 38M next year for their payroll. They will have:
Ben Gordon
Charlie V
Stuckey
Prince
Maxiell
Afflalo
Bynum
Sharpe

8 players = 38M and not a very impressive roster. Piston fans are giving too many passes to the FO. Coaching blunder after coaching blunder and now bad trades and cap mis management.

Not a great roster. How many teams have a great roster the very first season after they go full blown rebuild mode? Hopefully, for us Piston fans, the moves they made will end up being solid moves two or three years down the line. We realize the Pistons aren't going anywhere for at the very earliest three or four years down the line. Nothing is guaranteed. It's not like acquiring Ben Wallace or trading Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton or signing a bust journeyman to run the the point were viewed as championship moves at the time they were made.

You're entitled to your opinion but you are being quite short-sighted in your assessment.

Allanon

07-01-2009, 10:39 PM

sribb43

07-01-2009, 10:39 PM

Bust

JamStone

07-01-2009, 10:46 PM

Ben Gordon and CharlieV are good pickups but nothing that really brings them back into contention.

Pistons are a lost team right now...just getting by, maybe good for a first round exit.

Bulls are in trouble without Ben Gordon, lottery here we come.

Rarely can teams be sure a move is great at the time of the move. Not all teams have the luxury of getting great players like KG or Pau Gasol dropped in their lap.

At the time Ben Wallace was involved in the Grant Hill trade, when Rip Hamilton was acquired for then star Jerry Stackhouse, when #3 pick turned journeyman Chauncey Billups was signed to the MLE, do you think those moves were viewed as the foundation of a championship team?

Gordon and Villanueva aren't anything special. And there is absolutely no guarantee that they play great or become special players. But, when you start from scratch, NBA GMs must forecast these things. If they're wrong, they look like fools. If they're right, they look like geniuses. Nothing is certain. Nothing is guaranteed.

These moves won't make the Pistons contenders, not even conference contenders. But, it's a foundation of hopefully building a solid team three or four years down the line if these players work out and Dumars makes a few more tweaks that turn out well.

They weren't going anywhere with their roster as it was. The free agent market wasn't great. The Pistons got two of the better free agents this summer. Dumars wasn't going to tank a full season in hopes of getting a LeBron or Wade or Bosh or Amare only to not get them and still be in a bad situation. He made moves that hopefully will be steps in the right direction down the line. Not next year. Not the year after. But, you have to start somewhere.

tomtom

07-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Ben Gordon and CharlieV are good pickups but nothing that really brings them back into contention.

Pistons are a lost team right now...just getting by, maybe good for a first round exit.

Bulls are in trouble without Ben Gordon, lottery here we come.

Maybe I'm just a Bulls fan but I they'll be fine. Salmons and Miller have added to their offense and with Deng back I think they'll be ok plus next year they'll have a bit of capspace to work with.

Mr.Bottomtooth

07-01-2009, 11:08 PM

He will be destroyed by Blair anyways.

DPG21920

07-01-2009, 11:09 PM

This is just inaccurate b.s. itself.

The Pistons didn't trade Sheed to the Spurs because if they did the deal many Spurs fans were suggesting, even if they waived Bruce and Oberto to drop their salaries to their only partial guaranteed amounts, the Pistons would have had about $8.5 million less in cap space this summer.

You can say what you want to say about the free agent pick-ups. They're not great. The Pistons aren't contenders. And they won't be for several years if even then. But, it's clear that they are rebuilding. Acquiring Oberto, Kurt Thomas, and Bruce Bowen would have not allowed the Pistons to pick up two free agents this summer. And, next year, there would still be no guarantee they get any of the big name free agents. Dumars didn't want to tank an entire season just to have a chance at a big name superstar. He wanted to rebuild asap.

Don't bring up that stupid shit about not trading Sheed, because it would have specifically affected the Pistons ability to make these moves this summer.

Not a great roster. How many teams have a great roster the very first season after they go full blown rebuild mode? Hopefully, for us Piston fans, the moves they made will end up being solid moves two or three years down the line. We realize the Pistons aren't going anywhere for at the very earliest three or four years down the line. Nothing is guaranteed. It's not like acquiring Ben Wallace or trading Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton or signing a bust journeyman to run the the point were viewed as championship moves at the time they were made.

You're entitled to your opinion but you are being quite short-sighted in your assessment.

B.S. Jam and you know it. The Spurs were not the only option with regards to trading Sheed. Your logic was that Dumars could not trade Sheed even if they would have the same amount of capspace because that would piss fans off because "they are in the playoff hunt". So if you are going to suck anyways, why not have more capspace in 2010 with a better FA class? Why overpay now for people that most believe are a bad investment? Don't act like your GM did not panic because he wanted Boozer and now he is not there. If you are goin to lose, why not be patient? You are acting like the Pistons would have had a Spurs type gamble if they waited until 2010 :lol. They would have had much more money and they are in "rebuilding mode". Spurs are in win now mode.

How long do the Pistons have in your assessment? You have to go off of logic and be realistic. Overpaying for assets like Ben Gordon and to a certain degree Charlie V. is not good business and in no way helps "the rebuilding" process as you describe. That hurts them just as much as trading Sheed did with regards to making FA moves that help down the road.

So you were not in rebuilding mode last year, but you are this year so it is ok to suck?

VivaPopovich

07-01-2009, 11:20 PM

yeah that sounds about right. but considering the wave of significant movements that hit detroit every year they shouldnt have signed him on to a contract that long. long-term they'll probably trade him eventually for a couple of rookies to clear cap space-book it.

gaKNOW!blee

07-01-2009, 11:22 PM

Bust

yeah, not really.

JamStone

07-01-2009, 11:26 PM

B.S. Jam and you know it. The Spurs were not the only option with regards to trading Sheed. Your logic was that Dumars could not trade Sheed even if they would have the same amount of capspace because that would piss fans off because "they are in the playoff hunt".

Whose logic was that? Which Pistons fans? I remember that discussion. I also remember myself and other Pistons fans saying that even if the Pistons get nowhere, that we'd rather just let his contract expire. And what are these other options for trades that you are talking about? What trade possibilities would have given the Pistons the same amount of cap space this summer? Please, by all means, let us know.

So if you are going to suck anyways, why not have more capspace in 2010 with a better FA class?

Because Dumars didn't want to tank an entire season only to go into the 2010 off season and still not get the players he would target. He wanted to start the rebuilding process now. He didn't want to go through a 20 win season.

I'm not crazy about the signings, but they are moves for young, talented players that hopefully will end up being even better than they have been and hopefully will be the start of rebuilding the Pistons into a very good team.

Why overpay now for people that most believe are a bad investment?

Obviously Dumars doesn't feel they are bad investments. That's your opinion. You're entitled to it. That doesn't mean it's correct or how Dumars feels, obviously.

Don't act like your GM did not panic because he wanted Boozer and now he is not there. If you are goin to lose, why not be patient?

I don't know if Dumars panicked or not. I'm not in his head. You don't know that either. It could very well be the case that Dumars likes these moves. Who knows? Again, I can go back to the Ben Wallace longterm contract signing after getting him in the trade for Hill or the Billups MLE signing or the Stackhouse/Hamilton trade and there were plenty of criticisms for each of those moves. If you want to argue what you "think," that's fine. But, none of what you say is fact. It's opinion.

You are acting like the Pistons would have had a Spurs type gamble if they waited until 2010 :lol. They would have had much more money and they are in "rebuilding mode". Spurs are in win now mode.

Villanueva is 24. Gordon is 26. The Pistons aren't in win now mode either. They are getting pieces to rebuild the Pistons into a good team in hopefully a few years. Dumars didn't want the Pistons to go through a horrible 20 win lottery season. Now, the Pistons aren't going to make any deep run in the playoffs next year. They aren't contenders for the NBA title or the conference title. But, they should make the playoffs barring injury. They're younger. They'll open up the offense and get out in transition and should be a little more fun to watch. And, then they can re-assess things and try to add more pieces the next few seasons.

Your criticisms might have some merit if the Pistons signed soon to be 30 year old Lamar Odom and 33 year old Andre Miller. They didn't. They signed two young, talented players that will still be in their prime at the end of their five year contracts. It's called rebuilding.

How long do the Pistons have in your assessment? You have to go off of logic and be realistic. Overpaying for assets like Ben Gordon and to a certain degree Charlie V. is not good business and in no way helps "the rebuilding" process as you describe. That hurts them just as much as trading Sheed did with regards to making FA moves that help down the road.

How long do the Pistons have for what?

I just said this, but Gordon and Villanueva are in their mid 20s. You can argue they aren't good, but again that's a subjective opinion and both Gordon and Villanueva can prove you wrong. Obviously, Dumars disagrees with you. They are young and talented. Neither is a superstar player. Neither is a franchise player. Dumars is obviously hoping that one or both of them can come close to that and either live up to or outperform their contracts.

It doesn't hurt as much as trading Sheed. That's a ridiculous contention based on your subjective opinion about the two players. Again, your subjective opinion could be wrong.

So you were not in rebuilding mode last year, but you are this year so it is ok to suck?

Dumars made a gamble with the Billups/Iverson trade that turned out horribly from a basketball perspective. They didn't go into last season or into that trade expecting it to be a rebuilding year. But, towards the end of the season, it was apparent that this off season would be the start of rebuilding. Trading Sheed midseason wouldn't have allowed for Dumars to rebuild as much as he has.

Call the signings bad if you want. I personally don't really like them either. But, your arguments are weak, inaccurate, and based on subjective opinion.

DPG21920

07-01-2009, 11:51 PM

This is our old convo mixed in with other piston fans:

DPG: What incentive do the Pistons have to trade Wallace and AI? They are not going to win no matter what this year and those guys combine for 24+ million off the books NEXT season.

DPG: Keep hoping. No team is going to give up a young player with skill for an old player with skill who is just a rental. No way Detroit trades Wallace. They will just let him expire and sign someone using the money next year.

DPG: They Pistons can get nothing. The only types of teams that Wallace helps are teams like the Spurs who need one more piece for a title. Other teams with young guys that are rotation players would never be traded because it is a lateral move that sucks for the long term.

There is no reason why Detroit trades Wallace with his money coming off the books unless they can get a combo of expiring contracts, draft picks and someone who is a recent draft pick that has not turned into a rotation player yet for a contending team.

DPG: Detroit is going no where this year anyways. They have no chance to win it this year unless they pull off a miracle trade. Other than that, Sheed does nothing for them anymore. But they get a lot of money next year with him and Iverson coming off the books.

Amare is the best they can hope for by far. That is the only case where they can get a super star, young player for Rasheed because the Suns are in need of a quick fix to get better this year and they think that trading Amare for a guy like Sheed probably helps them this year, plus gives them wiggle room for next year. That is the only scenario I see that makes any kind of sense if they are hoping for someone to impact them now.

DPG: You have to ask yourself is what they are getting in return for a trade better than what they can get for 34 million in free agency? I do not think so. Unless they get Amare. That is almost like the perfect storm scenario.

DPG: It has been widely reported that other teams have no interest in Splitter. No one believes he is going to ever come over. Not only that, Ian makes less than 1 million. So the Spurs would need to get a lot more money involved to make the trade work since Splitter has no contract value (and neither do draft picks).

Piston fan: I think most of us fans are.... but Joe's only comment so far has been that he's not shopping anyone.

It's believed that he's mostly interested in using Sheed and AI for their expiring contracts for 2010's studs like Bosh and Amare. Which probably makes mroe sense than trading an asset like Sheed now for even a guy like Amare ... only to have him opt out after next year.

I'm not really expecting Detroit to make any moves before the deadline ... other than trying to trade away Alex Acker or Will Bynum. We're about 600,000 above the luxury tax threshold, and each of those guys makes 700,00.

DPG: This is exactly what I said. They can hit a homerun in FA next year, so unless they get a homerun player now in a trade (which there are not many scenarios, Amare being the most likely) they are not going to trade. The only other scenario is that they get a young guy who is not an impact player or great rotational player yet (beasley...) who is cheap and then they get expiring contracts as well. Meaning they get a young guy on a rookie scale contract and get to keep the majority of their cap space.

DPG: I would not count out next year as a FA. It makes perfect sense and I do not think he will command more than the MLE anyways.

Jam: It would require one of the Spurs big three and either Mason or Hill just to let Dumars consider it. He won't trade Rasheed for junk. Rasheed is being rumored as the centerpiece in a package for Amare. But the Pistons should trade him for Vaugh, Udoka, and Thomas instead? Come on now.

It's either find another team to accept junk to give the Pistons a legit offer or wait til this summer for a chance at Rasheed.

Jam: Precisely.

Exactly why the Spurs aren't going to be getting Wallace in a deal this year unless a third team is involved.

Get it? Anything outside the the Spurs Big 3 plus either Mason or Hill aren't assets the Pistons want. So, it would take that to make a deal. And, since of course the Spurs wouldn't offer that, the Spurs aren't getting Rasheed.

Understand?

Jam: Look, dumbass, laugh all you want. I gave an opinion, and you're having a hissy fit over that opinion. If the Pistons get jackshit for Rasheed Wallace, then so be it. Jackshit is still more than Vaughn, Udoka, Thomas, Mahinmi, Bowen, Finley, and Bonner all together. That's reality.

DPG: I disagree somewhat. If the Pistons are faced with letting him walk for nothing (which is not so bad because they get cap space) then getting a young upside big that does not cost a lot (Mahinmi) or that is off the books entirely (Splitter) is not a bad option as long as they get to keep the vast majority of the cap space as well.

I agree the Pistons will not trade Sheed unless they get a package like I described or like I outlined in the "perfect storm" scenario (Amare). The only teams Sheed helps are teams on the cusp of being champs. So not only do the Pistons have to find a team that fits that, but they also have to find a team with a young boarderline superstar that they are willing to part with in order to make their team better this year for a run at a title and that wants cap space. The Suns are the only team that fit that criteria imo.

But if that is not a reality, then getting Mahinmi and keeping your cap space sounds like a good deal if you are going to just get cap space anyways.

DPG: Ian makes less than 1 million. So if you give the Pistons a combo of expiring contracts, cash considerations and they buy out some guys, they get essentially all of their cap space still and get Ian.

If you are the Spurs, you get Sheed for sure now, do not have to worry about FA, can still resign him and if not, you now have 13 million in cap space next year to easily replace Ian for your future. This would be an epic move by the Spurs.

***This is the important part***

Jam: Joe Dumars was on the Mitch Albom show yesterday. He specifically stated that he is not giving up on the season. So, getting junk and prospects only is not something he will consider. He said he's open to a trade if it makes the team better. Dumars doesn't speak in smokescreens. Now, you can have all the hope in the world that the Spurs somehow find a way to get Rasheed this year. I'm telling you it's next to impossible. Dumars is not trading Rasheed just to trade him. He will trade Rasheed if he thinks it makes the team better. There's no good argument that Mahinmi and Splitter for the future makes the team better now.

So now you are saying the team was done last year anyways, but then you were saying there was still a chance? You are also saying that getting two young prospects that are cheap is not a sure fire bet, and now getting two over paid players is neither? So wouldn't you rather have the cheaper?

DPG: So you think that if no other trade offers come his way, and this current Piston team is the one he is going to go with this year into the playoffs, he will be happy to go with that and then lose Sheed next year (although he gets cap space) for absolutely nothing, not even a young prospect?

Jam:Yes. He's absolutely willing to do that, because it means a shitload of cap room to go after a legitimate big man. It doesn't guarantee the Pistons get one, but the Pistons have had plenty of experience with prospect big men from Darko to now Amir Johnson. It's not what Dumars wants. He'll play it out with this team if he doesn't get a trade offer that he feels makes the Pistons better now, this season.

***Legit bigman? Where is that?

DPG: What is the difference? You are seriously trying to tell me that 32 million in cap space + Mahinmi is worse than 33 million in cap space by itself? It is such a low risk/high reward situation.

Jam: The difference is he is not giving up on this season.

Jam: To clarify, if the Spurs were to somehow get Rasheed for the stuff people here propose, even after Rasheed's contract expires next year, they'd still be over the cap. They wouldn't have $13 million in cap space. They'd have the MLE and LLE. They'd still have to wait for the summer of 2010 to have any cap space, basically the same as it is now.

DPG: Please show me any indication that the Pistons are going to make noise this year as currently constructed. Ask Piston fans if they think that is true.

I am sure Piston fans will feel slighted if this team packs it in, gets bounced in the first round and Dumars did nothing to get any value for Rasheed knowing so.

DPG: You are right, they would be at 57 million payroll at that point. Which is still a win for the Spurs. As of now, they would be a 70 million next year.

***here is another important part. you were trying to argue that they were not done last year, but now because of the crappy moves you are saying they were***

Jam: Defeated Western Conference division leaders Spurs, Nuggets, and Lakers all on the road. Already beat the Cavaliers and Magic this year as well.

I don't think the Pistons will do much in the playoffs, but they certainly have the talent to surprise more than most of you suggest. They cannot beat Boston. But, in a 7 game series against Orlando and even Cleveland, they still could upset either one.
As a fan, I don't want Dumars to trade Rasheed for junk. I like Rasheed. I've been a fan of his since before he became a Piston. Unless it's a deal that brings back a star player that can help the Pistons now and in the future, I don't want Rasheed dealt either. I won't feel slighted in the least bit if Rasheed isn't traded but still walks this summer. That has been a possibility all season, and I'm fine with that.

Jam: Here's the thing. It's one thing to break up the team and start rebuilding for the future.

What a lot of Spurs fans in this thread are suggesting is that Dumars gift-wrap Rasheed and Pau-Gasol him to the Spurs. Dumars may respect Pop and RC and the Spurs. But, he's not Jerry-Westing Rasheed. What the Spurs have to offer, more relevantly willing to offer, is not something that is going to push Dumars into trading Rasheed to the Spurs. It's just not. That's the big bottomline. That's the point. The Spurs don't have much to offer to consumate a deal for Rasheed.

Spur fan: Just to continue to be the Devil's Advocate on every position in this thread, I think the question for Detroit is: What amounts to value? If the Pistons value capspace above all else, the Spurs could put together a deal that could maintain that while giving the Pistons a player (Hill, Mahinmi, Splitter, for instance). In that scenario, the Pistons get value insofar as they get to keep the capspace they covet while also getting a young player instead of nothing for Rasheed when he departs. Of course, that depends on the Pistons deciding that the young players the Spurs could offer would actually have value -- and as I've said, I'd agree that the pickings in SA in that regard are fairly slim.

If Detroit decides to ship out Sheed, I don't think Dumars does that without ensuring his capspace for 2010 and that likely means that the talent target in that deal from his standpoint is going to be a minor, younger player. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult to make any move to deal Rasheed.

DPG: I agree that it is probably not going to happen (just read the pages before this in the thread). I think Amare is the perfect and almost only trade scenario, but I am not sure if it will happen.

I was strictly arguing the point that if Dumars really thought that no other offers were coming in, and that the Pistons were not going to make noise this year, that he would be ok with getting a young prospect + keeping 99% of his cap space at the same time.

*** another important part. you keep giving "fake" timelines and speaking in hypotheticals. Like " you cannot judge by this year or the year is not over...***

Jam: Last couple of years? This year isn't over, and last year the Pistons made it as far as the Spurs did. Should RC and Pop be worried as well?

Come on. You sound a tad bit over-the-top. Simmer down already.

Jam: As it stands right now, the Pistons have about $20 million in cap space this summer, and will have about $30 million in 2010. That's as it stands now before any moves are made, draft pick signings, trades or free agent signings.

***Now that capspace is gone (not all of it) and it is committed to Ben+CV and extending Stuckey.***

Jam: Because Dumars is not conceding the season.

The Pistons have enough talent to challenge any team in the East except for Boston. If they can avoid Boston, the Pistons can still conceivably beat either Orlando or Cleveland in a 7 game series. Not likely, certainly not guaranteed, but it's possible. If that happens and the Pistons find themselves in the Finals, anything can happen.

Look, I understand that it won't happen. But, that's the way Dumars is approaching it. Call it delusional. That's fine. In the Eastern Conference, where there are three great teams and the rest are also-rans, the Pistons are going to make the playoffs. And, they still have the talent to challenge. And, look at Jameer Nelson done for the season and Cleveland has had four key injuries already. Dumars is not giving up on the season and having a whole-sale on his roster.

Dumars is content with keeping the team as is and seeing what they can do in the playoffs, and ultimately letting Rasheed walk. That's what some of you still aren't getting. He's not giving up Rasheed unless he gets something in return that he feels helps the team right now. He doesn't want just expiring contracts and future draft picks and rights to players. He wants player/s in return that can help the team.

You can bitch all you want on how stupid Dumars is to take that approach, but that's the approach he has. Rasheed is not available for role players, bench reserves, prospects, and future draft picks.

***Still sticking to the Pistons having a shot in the PO's, but now you are saying they were done.***

Allanon

07-01-2009, 11:59 PM

Rarely can teams be sure a move is great at the time of the move. Not all teams have the luxury of getting great players like KG or Pau Gasol dropped in their lap.

At the time Ben Wallace was involved in the Grant Hill trade, when Rip Hamilton was acquired for then star Jerry Stackhouse, when #3 pick turned journeyman Chauncey Billups was signed to the MLE, do you think those moves were viewed as the foundation of a championship team?

Gordon and Villanueva aren't anything special. And there is absolutely no guarantee that they play great or become special players. But, when you start from scratch, NBA GMs must forecast these things. If they're wrong, they look like fools. If they're right, they look like geniuses. Nothing is certain. Nothing is guaranteed.

These moves won't make the Pistons contenders, not even conference contenders. But, it's a foundation of hopefully building a solid team three or four years down the line if these players work out and Dumars makes a few more tweaks that turn out well.

They weren't going anywhere with their roster as it was. The free agent market wasn't great. The Pistons got two of the better free agents this summer. Dumars wasn't going to tank a full season in hopes of getting a LeBron or Wade or Bosh or Amare only to not get them and still be in a bad situation. He made moves that hopefully will be steps in the right direction down the line. Not next year. Not the year after. But, you have to start somewhere.

I agree with the jist of it. The Pistons seem to be rebuilding their base.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 12:00 AM

Whose logic was that? Which Pistons fans? I remember that discussion. I also remember myself and other Pistons fans saying that even if the Pistons get nowhere, that we'd rather just let his contract expire. And what are these other options for trades that you are talking about? What trade possibilities would have given the Pistons the same amount of cap space this summer? Please, by all means, let us know.

Because Dumars didn't want to tank an entire season only to go into the 2010 off season and still not get the players he would target. He wanted to start the rebuilding process now. He didn't want to go through a 20 win season.

I'm not crazy about the signings, but they are moves for young, talented players that hopefully will end up being even better than they have been and hopefully will be the start of rebuilding the Pistons into a very good team.

Obviously Dumars doesn't feel they are bad investments. That's your opinion. You're entitled to it. That doesn't mean it's correct or how Dumars feels, obviously.

I don't know if Dumars panicked or not. I'm not in his head. You don't know that either. It could very well be the case that Dumars likes these moves. Who knows? Again, I can go back to the Ben Wallace longterm contract signing after getting him in the trade for Hill or the Billups MLE signing or the Stackhouse/Hamilton trade and there were plenty of criticisms for each of those moves. If you want to argue what you "think," that's fine. But, none of what you say is fact. It's opinion.

Villanueva is 24. Gordon is 26. The Pistons aren't in win now mode either. They are getting pieces to rebuild the Pistons into a good team in hopefully a few years. Dumars didn't want the Pistons to go through a horrible 20 win lottery season. Now, the Pistons aren't going to make any deep run in the playoffs next year. They aren't contenders for the NBA title or the conference title. But, they should make the playoffs barring injury. They're younger. They'll open up the offense and get out in transition and should be a little more fun to watch. And, then they can re-assess things and try to add more pieces the next few seasons.

Your criticisms might have some merit if the Pistons signed soon to be 30 year old Lamar Odom and 33 year old Andre Miller. They didn't. They signed two young, talented players that will still be in their prime at the end of their five year contracts. It's called rebuilding.

How long do the Pistons have for what?

I just said this, but Gordon and Villanueva are in their mid 20s. You can argue they aren't good, but again that's a subjective opinion and both Gordon and Villanueva can prove you wrong. Obviously, Dumars disagrees with you. They are young and talented. Neither is a superstar player. Neither is a franchise player. Dumars is obviously hoping that one or both of them can come close to that and either live up to or outperform their contracts.

It doesn't hurt as much as trading Sheed. That's a ridiculous contention based on your subjective opinion about the two players. Again, your subjective opinion could be wrong.

Dumars made a gamble with the Billups/Iverson trade that turned out horribly from a basketball perspective. They didn't go into last season or into that trade expecting it to be a rebuilding year. But, towards the end of the season, it was apparent that this off season would be the start of rebuilding. Trading Sheed midseason wouldn't have allowed for Dumars to rebuild as much as he has.

Call the signings bad if you want. I personally don't really like them either. But, your arguments are weak, inaccurate, and based on subjective opinion.

How are they weak? How are they inaccurate? Of course it is opinion, but so is everything that you post. It is not fact. You said yourself "it could or could not work out". What kind of shit is that? Just leaving the door open to never having a chance to be wrong?

What will it take for you to say these were bad moves? I want a concrete answer for this question.

You did not disprove anything to call them weak? Saying that you hope they out perform their contracts and become central pieces to a championship team is weak and opinion. Saying that overpaying for guys that teams are willing to let go is something you "have to wait on" is weak and opinion.

Changing your stance from the Pistons should not give up last year because they beat the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics... to they are done is weak.

I said the Pistons are not in win now mode. So once again, why not be patient? What are you getting a head start on? Would the Pistons not have tons of cap space and MORE THAN LIKELY be able to land whom ever they wanted?

You say they do not want to suffer through a 20 win season; what if they do not make the playoffs this year? What if they get swept in the first round like last year?

Allanon

07-02-2009, 12:00 AM

Maybe I'm just a Bulls fan but I they'll be fine. Salmons and Miller have added to their offense and with Deng back I think they'll be ok plus next year they'll have a bit of capspace to work with.

Ben Gordon really was the catalyst on that team during the Playoffs.

I think Salmons is a really under-rated guy but you are cool with Ben Gordon gone?

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 12:03 AM

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 12:09 AM

The entire old convo was predicated on 2 things:

1) Pistons keeping cap space for this year to sign a legit bigman: FAIL
2) Pistons getting as much cap space for 2010 to make a run at multiple people: FAIL because they have now cut into that by signing Ben+CV for about 17M.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 12:30 AM

I'll bold the important points.

This is our old convo mixed in with other piston fans:

DPG: What incentive do the Pistons have to trade Wallace and AI? They are not going to win no matter what this year and those guys combine for 24+ million off the books NEXT season.

DPG: Keep hoping. No team is going to give up a young player with skill for an old player with skill who is just a rental. No way Detroit trades Wallace. They will just let him expire and sign someone using the money next year.

DPG: They Pistons can get nothing. The only types of teams that Wallace helps are teams like the Spurs who need one more piece for a title. Other teams with young guys that are rotation players would never be traded because it is a lateral move that sucks for the long term.

There is no reason why Detroit trades Wallace with his money coming off the books unless they can get a combo of expiring contracts, draft picks and someone who is a recent draft pick that has not turned into a rotation player yet for a contending team.

DPG: Detroit is going no where this year anyways. They have no chance to win it this year unless they pull off a miracle trade. Other than that, Sheed does nothing for them anymore. But they get a lot of money next year with him and Iverson coming off the books.

Amare is the best they can hope for by far. That is the only case where they can get a super star, young player for Rasheed because the Suns are in need of a quick fix to get better this year and they think that trading Amare for a guy like Sheed probably helps them this year, plus gives them wiggle room for next year. That is the only scenario I see that makes any kind of sense if they are hoping for someone to impact them now.

DPG: You have to ask yourself is what they are getting in return for a trade better than what they can get for 34 million in free agency? I do not think so. Unless they get Amare. That is almost like the perfect storm scenario.

DPG: It has been widely reported that other teams have no interest in Splitter. No one believes he is going to ever come over. Not only that, Ian makes less than 1 million. So the Spurs would need to get a lot more money involved to make the trade work since Splitter has no contract value (and neither do draft picks).

Piston fan: I think most of us fans are.... but Joe's only comment so far has been that he's not shopping anyone.

It's believed that he's mostly interested in using Sheed and AI for their expiring contracts for 2010's studs like Bosh and Amare. Which probably makes mroe sense than trading an asset like Sheed now for even a guy like Amare ... only to have him opt out after next year.

I'm not really expecting Detroit to make any moves before the deadline ... other than trying to trade away Alex Acker or Will Bynum. We're about 600,000 above the luxury tax threshold, and each of those guys makes 700,00.

DPG: This is exactly what I said. They can hit a homerun in FA next year, so unless they get a homerun player now in a trade (which there are not many scenarios, Amare being the most likely) they are not going to trade. The only other scenario is that they get a young guy who is not an impact player or great rotational player yet (beasley...) who is cheap and then they get expiring contracts as well. Meaning they get a young guy on a rookie scale contract and get to keep the majority of their cap space.

DPG: I would not count out next year as a FA. It makes perfect sense and I do not think he will command more than the MLE anyways.

Jam: It would require one of the Spurs big three and either Mason or Hill just to let Dumars consider it. He won't trade Rasheed for junk. Rasheed is being rumored as the centerpiece in a package for Amare. But the Pistons should trade him for Vaugh, Udoka, and Thomas instead? Come on now.

It's either find another team to accept junk to give the Pistons a legit offer or wait til this summer for a chance at Rasheed.

Jam: Precisely.

Exactly why the Spurs aren't going to be getting Wallace in a deal this year unless a third team is involved.

Get it? Anything outside the the Spurs Big 3 plus either Mason or Hill aren't assets the Pistons want. So, it would take that to make a deal. And, since of course the Spurs wouldn't offer that, the Spurs aren't getting Rasheed.

Understand?

Jam: Look, dumbass, laugh all you want. I gave an opinion, and you're having a hissy fit over that opinion. If the Pistons get jackshit for Rasheed Wallace, then so be it. Jackshit is still more than Vaughn, Udoka, Thomas, Mahinmi, Bowen, Finley, and Bonner all together. That's reality.

DPG: I disagree somewhat. If the Pistons are faced with letting him walk for nothing (which is not so bad because they get cap space) then getting a young upside big that does not cost a lot (Mahinmi) or that is off the books entirely (Splitter) is not a bad option as long as they get to keep the vast majority of the cap space as well.

I agree the Pistons will not trade Sheed unless they get a package like I described or like I outlined in the "perfect storm" scenario (Amare). The only teams Sheed helps are teams on the cusp of being champs. So not only do the Pistons have to find a team that fits that, but they also have to find a team with a young boarderline superstar that they are willing to part with in order to make their team better this year for a run at a title and that wants cap space. The Suns are the only team that fit that criteria imo.

But if that is not a reality, then getting Mahinmi and keeping your cap space sounds like a good deal if you are going to just get cap space anyways.

DPG: Ian makes less than 1 million. So if you give the Pistons a combo of expiring contracts, cash considerations and they buy out some guys, they get essentially all of their cap space still and get Ian.

If you are the Spurs, you get Sheed for sure now, do not have to worry about FA, can still resign him and if not, you now have 13 million in cap space next year to easily replace Ian for your future. This would be an epic move by the Spurs.

I agree with those points I bolded. The Pistons weren't trading Rasheed for junk. What's missing, and I don't know where it is, is the point that not only would the suggested package be junk for Rasheed, but it would also affect the cap space for this summer as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

***This is the important part***

Jam: Joe Dumars was on the Mitch Albom show yesterday. He specifically stated that he is not giving up on the season. So, getting junk and prospects only is not something he will consider. He said he's open to a trade if it makes the team better. Dumars doesn't speak in smokescreens. Now, you can have all the hope in the world that the Spurs somehow find a way to get Rasheed this year. I'm telling you it's next to impossible. Dumars is not trading Rasheed just to trade him. He will trade Rasheed if he thinks it makes the team better. There's no good argument that Mahinmi and Splitter for the future makes the team better now.

So now you are saying the team was done last year anyways, but then you were saying there was still a chance? You are also saying that getting two young prospects that are cheap is not a sure fire bet, and now getting two over paid players is neither? So wouldn't you rather have the cheaper?

I wasn't saying what I thought. I said what Dumars thought. There's quite a difference between those two things. It was clear towards the end of the season the Pistons would be rebuilding. Midway through the season, there was still a feeling that the Pistons could make a little bit of noise if they came together. But, towards the end of the season, it was clear AFTER the season was over, the Pistons would be going to go in full rebuild mode.

Before the Iverson trade, I didn't think the Pistons were going to win a title. After the Iverson trade, I didn't think the Pistons were going to win a title. I'm not Joe Dumars. When the Iverson trade went down, Dumars thought it was a move that would keep the Pistons competitive. It was clear towards the end of the season that that wasn't the case. None of this post contradicts that.

DPG: So you think that if no other trade offers come his way, and this current Piston team is the one he is going to go with this year into the playoffs, he will be happy to go with that and then lose Sheed next year (although he gets cap space) for absolutely nothing, not even a young prospect?

Jam:Yes. He's absolutely willing to do that, because it means a shitload of cap room to go after a legitimate big man. It doesn't guarantee the Pistons get one, but the Pistons have had plenty of experience with prospect big men from Darko to now Amir Johnson. It's not what Dumars wants. He'll play it out with this team if he doesn't get a trade offer that he feels makes the Pistons better now, this season.

See. Rather get the cap space than trade Rasheed for crap space.

***Legit bigman? Where is that?

DPG: What is the difference? You are seriously trying to tell me that 32 million in cap space + Mahinmi is worse than 33 million in cap space by itself? It is such a low risk/high reward situation.

Jam: The difference is he is not giving up on this season.

Jam: To clarify, if the Spurs were to somehow get Rasheed for the stuff people here propose, even after Rasheed's contract expires next year, they'd still be over the cap. They wouldn't have $13 million in cap space. They'd have the MLE and LLE. They'd still have to wait for the summer of 2010 to have any cap space, basically the same as it is now.

DPG: Please show me any indication that the Pistons are going to make noise this year as currently constructed. Ask Piston fans if they think that is true.

I am sure Piston fans will feel slighted if this team packs it in, gets bounced in the first round and Dumars did nothing to get any value for Rasheed knowing so.

DPG: You are right, they would be at 57 million payroll at that point. Which is still a win for the Spurs. As of now, they would be a 70 million next year.

Charlie Villanueva isn't a legit big man. But neither is Ian Mahinmi. You can argue the merits of each player and try to predict who eventually will be a better player, but it's clear Dumars doesn't think Ian Mahinmi on the Pistons isn't better than Charlie Villanueva.

Pistons fans didn't feel slighted for Dumars not getting anything for Rasheed because of the cap space. Pistons fans would not rather have Ian Mahinmi and less about $10 million in cap space than the $19-20 cap space that got them Gordon and Villanueva. Sorry, we don't.

***here is another important part. you were trying to argue that they were not done last year, but now because of the crappy moves you are saying they were***

Jam: Defeated Western Conference division leaders Spurs, Nuggets, and Lakers all on the road. Already beat the Cavaliers and Magic this year as well.

I answered your question asking what indications were there that the Pistons could make noise in the playoffs. I answered it. Right after that, I stated they wouldn't. But, there were hints that the Pistons could have made some noise. They just didn't.

I don't think the Pistons will do much in the playoffs, but they certainly have the talent to surprise more than most of you suggest.

See. I said I didn't think they would. I just answered your question as to what indications were there that they could.

They cannot beat Boston. But, in a 7 game series against Orlando and even Cleveland, they still could upset either one.
As a fan, I don't want Dumars to trade Rasheed for junk. I like Rasheed. I've been a fan of his since before he became a Piston. Unless it's a deal that brings back a star player that can help the Pistons now and in the future, I don't want Rasheed dealt either. I won't feel slighted in the least bit if Rasheed isn't traded but still walks this summer. That has been a possibility all season, and I'm fine with that.

Still feel the same.

Jam: Here's the thing. It's one thing to break up the team and start rebuilding for the future.

What a lot of Spurs fans in this thread are suggesting is that Dumars gift-wrap Rasheed and Pau-Gasol him to the Spurs. Dumars may respect Pop and RC and the Spurs. But, he's not Jerry-Westing Rasheed. What the Spurs have to offer, more relevantly willing to offer, is not something that is going to push Dumars into trading Rasheed to the Spurs. It's just not. That's the big bottomline. That's the point. The Spurs don't have much to offer to consumate a deal for Rasheed.

Spur fan: Just to continue to be the Devil's Advocate on every position in this thread, I think the question for Detroit is: What amounts to value? If the Pistons value capspace above all else, the Spurs could put together a deal that could maintain that while giving the Pistons a player (Hill, Mahinmi, Splitter, for instance). In that scenario, the Pistons get value insofar as they get to keep the capspace they covet while also getting a young player instead of nothing for Rasheed when he departs. Of course, that depends on the Pistons deciding that the young players the Spurs could offer would actually have value -- and as I've said, I'd agree that the pickings in SA in that regard are fairly slim.

That was an inaccurate statement though because it wouldn't have maintained the Pistons cap space for this summer because in order to match salaries, the Spurs would have had to add players whose contracts run through next season, thereby not maintaining the Pistons cap space.

If Detroit decides to ship out Sheed, I don't think Dumars does that without ensuring his capspace for 2010 and that likely means that the talent target in that deal from his standpoint is going to be a minor, younger player. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult to make any move to deal Rasheed.

DPG: I agree that it is probably not going to happen (just read the pages before this in the thread). I think Amare is the perfect and almost only trade scenario, but I am not sure if it will happen.

I was strictly arguing the point that if Dumars really thought that no other offers were coming in, and that the Pistons were not going to make noise this year, that he would be ok with getting a young prospect + keeping 99% of his cap space at the same time.

This obviously turned out to be a false assumption on your part because Dumars wanted to maintain cap space for this summer, not 2010.

*** another important part. you keep giving "fake" timelines and speaking in hypotheticals. Like " you cannot judge by this year or the year is not over...***

Jam: Last couple of years? This year isn't over, and last year the Pistons made it as far as the Spurs did. Should RC and Pop be worried as well?

Come on. You sound a tad bit over-the-top. Simmer down already.

I'd like the date of this post. Again, even in this thread, I've constantly been saying "towards the end of the season" it was clear the Pistons were going to start rebuilding after this past season. These posts were likely around the time before the trade deadline sometime in February, at which time, Dumars and Pistons fans, including myself, weren't quitting on this season. I didn't think the Pistons were going to win a title, but I also didn't think the Pistons wouldn't be the least bit competitive in the playoffs either. Again, date these posts.

Jam: As it stands right now, the Pistons have about $20 million in cap space this summer, and will have about $30 million in 2010. That's as it stands now before any moves are made, draft pick signings, trades or free agent signings.

***Now that capspace is gone (not all of it) and it is committed to Ben+CV and extending Stuckey.***

Which Dumars seems fine with. I don't think they're great signings, but once again, it's rebuild mode and the two of them are young and talented. Hopefully a few years down the line, they'll be seen as very good free agent signings.

Jam: Because Dumars is not conceding the season.

The Pistons have enough talent to challenge any team in the East except for Boston. If they can avoid Boston, the Pistons can still conceivably beat either Orlando or Cleveland in a 7 game series. Not likely, certainly not guaranteed, but it's possible. If that happens and the Pistons find themselves in the Finals, anything can happen.

[u]Look, I understand that it won't happen. But, that's the way Dumars is approaching it. Call it delusional. That's fine. In the Eastern Conference, where there are three great teams and the rest are also-rans, the Pistons are going to make the playoffs. And, they still have the talent to challenge. And, look at Jameer Nelson done for the season and Cleveland has had four key injuries already. Dumars is not giving up on the season and having a whole-sale on his roster.

Once again, I talked about how Dumars viewed it. I specifically stated that I understand the Pistons weren't going to get to the Finals, only that they had the talent to challenge any team in the East besides the Celtics. Turns out they couldn't challenge the Cavs either, but it wasn't merely for lack of talent. It also included player-coaching disputes, poor chemistry, bad coaching, and players quitting. My statement that the Pistons had enough "talent" to challenge, not necessarily beat, any team in the Eastern Conference besides the Celtics is something I still believe. I didn't guarantee they could beat anyone, only that they could challenge anyone other than the Celtics in the EC.

Dumars is content with keeping the team as is and seeing what they can do in the playoffs, and ultimately letting Rasheed walk. That's what some of you still aren't getting. He's not giving up Rasheed unless he gets something in return that he feels helps the team right now. He doesn't want just expiring contracts and future draft picks and rights to players. He wants player/s in return that can help the team.

You can bitch all you want on how stupid Dumars is to take that approach, but that's the approach he has. Rasheed is not available for role players, bench reserves, prospects, and future draft picks.

***Still sticking to the Pistons having a shot in the PO's, but now you are saying they were done.***

All of this only proved you is that you didn't read things thoroughly enough, not in these quoted passages or in this thread. I stated in this thread that later in the season, it became clear the Pistons were going to rebuild this off season. None of these quotes refute or contradict that. And, these quotes were likely from mid February where it's absolutely true that Dumars and many Piston fans including myself weren't just "giving up" on the season. Moreover, claiming that the Pistons had talent enough to challenge any team in the East except for Boston is also not disputed by what we're saying now. I knew the Pistons weren't winning the title last year. Saying their talent was good enough to challenge and be competitive against most teams doesn't contradict the notion that we knew we were going to rebuild after the season was over.

Thanks for the memories though.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 12:42 AM

Yes, they were so competitive. I see your strategy now. Just speak out of both sides of your mouth so you can never be wrong: "I did not say the Pistons would beat the Cavs, only that they could...". Sure.

You keep back tracking saying that you were speaking about this years cap space the entire time, when everyone else in the baskteball world speaks of cap space in 2010, not this year.

You also said the cap space was to be used for a legit bigman and then try and compare CV to Ian. That is not the point and you are trying to cover your ass. Just like saying: "CV and Ben make the Pistons better than Rasheed and Billups 3 years from now..". WGAF, it is about winning. Yes CV is better than Ian, but CV is not a "legit" bigman with his poor defense and questionable attitude (and I am a huge CV fan).

Yes CV + Ben will be better than Billups and Wallace 3 years from now and that constitutes "rebuilding", but does that make them good pick ups? Plenty of players will be better than Sheed in 3 years and they don't cost a combined 17M.

So thanks for the double talk, it really adds a lot :tu

JamStone

07-02-2009, 12:47 AM

How are they weak? How are they inaccurate? Of course it is opinion, but so is everything that you post. It is not fact. You said yourself "it could or could not work out". What kind of shit is that? Just leaving the door open to never having a chance to be wrong?

You arguments are weak because you are making contentions of fact based on opinion. Your arguments are inaccurate because you've suggested the Pistons should have traded Rasheed when doing so would have changed their cap space for this summer.

My posts don't make claims making assertions and contentions that the signings are bad before we see how the two perform on these contracts. If Villanueva gets three all star selections over the next five years, Gordon gets two scoring titles, and the Pistons make it to the ECF the last two years of the five year contracts, are they still bad signings? No. Will that happen? Probably not. But, I'm not going to stand here and adamantly evaluate the signings before I know for sure.

I've already said I don't really like the signings personally. What I have also stated is that I'll wait and see how things turn out and that I hope they do end up becoming good signings for the Pistons.

What will it take for you to say these were bad moves? I want a concrete answer for this question.

Agreeing or disagreeing with the moves is not the same thing as saying they are good or bad moves. Villanueva and Gordon failing to live up to their stats and the Pistons being a lottery team the next three seasons is what it will take for me to say they were bad moves. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

None of us know whether these moves will be good, bad, or mediocre until we let the contracts play out. You are suggesting

You did not disprove anything to call them weak? Saying that you hope they out perform their contracts and become central pieces to a championship team is weak and opinion. Saying that overpaying for guys that teams are willing to let go is something you "have to wait on" is weak and opinion.

Arguing that you can't really evaluate the contracts before you can determine that they are bad signings does show your points are weak. Moreover, you claiming the Pistons would be better off to wait for next summer for the 2010 free agent class is also not very strong since there's a chance that if the Pistons did that, they could still not get players they want or better players than Gordon and Villanueva. There was no guarantee they would have. It's not like Detroit is the #1 destination for NBA free agents.

Changing your stance from the Pistons should not give up last year because they beat the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics... to they are done is weak.

Not reading thoroughly enough to know that I didn't change my stance is weak.

I said the Pistons are not in win now mode. So once again, why not be patient? What are you getting a head start on? Would the Pistons not have tons of cap space and MORE THAN LIKELY be able to land whom ever they wanted?

Assuming the Pistons would be able to land whomever they wanted next summer is a huge leap in assumption. There's no guarantee in that.

Again, with Gordon and Villanueva, at least they are young and will be entering the prime of their careers during the length of their contracts. That's the value of signing them. I don't particularly like them as players, but they are young and they are talented and they both have room to grow and improve to be solid to very good players.

You say they do not want to suffer through a 20 win season; what if they do not make the playoffs this year? What if they get swept in the first round like last year?

If they don't make the playoffs next year, it will be bad. They could conceivably get swept in the first round. That would be better than a 20 win season for the franchise and Detroit metro area. Making the playoffs, the Pistons will still get at least the gates proceeds for two playoff games and their regular season attendance won't be anywhere near as poor as where it would be for a 20 win team. The Pistons won't be great, but they should be more fun to watch. A 20 win lottery team would do a lot of damage to the franchise and the surrounding businesses around the Palace.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 12:55 AM

You say Dumars got 2 of the better free agents this year and did not want to risk missing out on big ones next year and still be in a bad spot? Do you logically think that they could not have gotten anyone better than CV or Ben next year with a ton of capspace? Even if they did not get Bosh or Lebron or Wade, is there no one else that would have fallen through the cracks or would any other team have had more capspace than the Pistons?

They "could" conceivably gotten better players next summer than Gordon and Villanueva, but there is no guarantee and there's as much likelihood that they would have ended up not getting better players than Gordon and Villanueva. And, taking that risk, you go through a 20 win lottery season that affects not only the franchise, but the Detroit metro area and its economy. Dumars wants to field a team that will still bring in fans and won't have a Seattle of a few years ago like season.

There are a lot of big names in 2010. Most of the big names after LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare are in their late 20s/early 30s and will sign with their current teams or contenders. They won't go to Detroit. If Detroit didn't use their cap space this summer, next year's team and the prospective season they would have had would not appeal to star players. Could the Pistons maybe lure a Joe Johnson and Boozer? Maybe. But no guarantee. After the LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare, none of which would have likely come to the Pistons, there were few YOUNG star players that would have ended up signing with a bad Pistons team unless they got way overpriced offers.

They cold have just as likely ended up with Kelenna Azubuike and Al Harrington if they waited until next summer. Is that better than Gordon and Villanueva? Maybe, but it's not worth enduring a lottery season for.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 01:02 AM

You arguments are weak because you are making contentions of fact based on opinion. Your arguments are inaccurate because you've suggested the Pistons should have traded Rasheed when doing so would have changed their cap space for this summer.

Where did I say what I said is fact? Please quote this. Where did I say the Pistons SHOULD have traded Sheed? I said is it not LIKELY they could have waited until 2010 and landed better players?

My posts don't make claims making assertions and contentions that the signings are bad before we see how the two perform on these contracts. If Villanueva gets three all star selections over the next five years, Gordon gets two scoring titles, and the Pistons make it to the ECF the last two years of the five year contracts, are they still bad signings? No. Will that happen? Probably not. But, I'm not going to stand here and adamantly evaluate the signings before I know for sure.

I've already said I don't really like the signings personally. What I have also stated is that I'll wait and see how things turn out and that I hope they do end up becoming good signings for the Pistons.

So WTF is your point again? Making up assumptions and opinions that "if this and if that" when it "probably will not happen" is weak. So how is you "hoping" they will turn out well and me "thinking" they are bad signings different? They are both opinion. But our opinions are based on logic (unless you are hinting they could have scoring titles and make multiple all star games).

Agreeing or disagreeing with the moves is not the same thing as saying they are good or bad moves. Villanueva and Gordon failing to live up to their stats and the Pistons being a lottery team the next three seasons is what it will take for me to say they were bad moves. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

None of us know whether these moves will be good, bad, or mediocre until we let the contracts play out. You are suggesting

More classic double talk from J.S. So it will take them being a lottery team 3 years in a row for this to be a bad move :lol. But if they waited until 2010, where there was more talent, where they had the most capspace (or close) and they won 20 games this year as a lottery team would be a failure?

Arguing that you can't really evaluate the contracts before you can determine that they are bad signings does show your points are weak. Moreover, you claiming the Pistons would be better off to wait for next summer for the 2010 free agent class is also not very strong since there's a chance that if the Pistons did that, they could still not get players they want or better players than Gordon and Villanueva. There was no guarantee they would have. It's not like Detroit is the #1 destination for NBA free agents.

Not reading thoroughly enough to know that I didn't change my stance is weak.

If the Spurs sign Bonner for 11M, would that be a bad contract in your eyes? Or would you have to let it play out in its entirety in order to assess? Or can you use logic?

A chance that the Pistons, with the most cap space, could not land better than CV+Ben is a not a leap. It is logical. I never said for sure, but just like you always say, you never know. Just let it play out and play the odds. You are right, no guarantee, but likely. Especially if they have close to the most money to offer.

Assuming the Pistons would be able to land whomever they wanted next summer is a huge leap in assumption. There's no guarantee in that.

Again, with Gordon and Villanueva, at least they are young and will be entering the prime of their careers during the length of their contracts. That's the value of signing them. I don't particularly like them as players, but they are young and they are talented and they both have room to grow and improve to be solid to very good players.

Yes, they can become good players, but do you think Gordon can really add to his game? Honestly, what can you see him morphing into that he is not already? Do you see CV turning into a defensive oriented player? Yes they are young and talented, but so are other players. In 2010, there will be more CV's and Ben's so why commit now? The Pistons would have a ton of money to spend.

If they don't make the playoffs next year, it will be bad. They could conceivably get swept in the first round. That would be better than a 20 win season for the franchise and Detroit metro area. Making the playoffs, the Pistons will still get at least the gates proceeds for two playoff games and their regular season attendance won't be anywhere near as poor as where it would be for a 20 win team. The Pistons won't be great, but they should be more fun to watch. A 20 win lottery team would do a lot of damage to the franchise and the surrounding businesses around the Palace.

Cool, so you are ok with the moves as long as the team barely makes the playoffs. If this continues 5 years from now and they are not contenders is this a failure?

And now signing CV+Ben is going to save the Detroit economy and surrounding businesses :tu

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 01:04 AM

They "could" conceivably gotten better players next summer than Gordon and Villanueva, but there is no guarantee and there's as much likelihood that they would have ended up not getting better players than Gordon and Villanueva. And, taking that risk, you go through a 20 win lottery season that affects not only the franchise, but the Detroit metro area and its economy. Dumars wants to field a team that will still bring in fans and won't have a Seattle of a few years ago like season.

There are a lot of big names in 2010. Most of the big names after LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare are in their late 20s/early 30s and will sign with their current teams or contenders. They won't go to Detroit. If Detroit didn't use their cap space this summer, next year's team and the prospective season they would have had would not appeal to star players. Could the Pistons maybe lure a Joe Johnson and Boozer? Maybe. But no guarantee. After the LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare, none of which would have likely come to the Pistons, there were few YOUNG star players that would have ended up signing with a bad Pistons team unless they got way overpriced offers.

They cold have just as likely ended up with Kelenna Azubuike and Al Harrington if they waited until next summer. Is that better than Gordon and Villanueva? Maybe, but it's not worth enduring a lottery season for.

So you are saying the Pistons won't be able to sign anyone of importance next year with their cap space?

JamStone

07-02-2009, 01:19 AM

I just lost a response post because my internet crashed. Fuck it. I'm not going to go back and re-write it. I'll just leave it with this last post.

This was your first post in this thread.

I do not care how Piston fans try and paint this, it is a massive failure on Detroit's part.

This is a comment that comes across as an assertion of fact. It's an opinion that cannot be proven or disproven until after Gordon and Villanueva play on these contracts and either live up to or not live up to the contracts.

They have nothing to build around. No Center, no depth especially at the point guard position and up front.

Again, assertion of fact. First of all, the off season isn't over and the Pistons can still conceivably trade Hamilton and/or Prince for a center. Secondly, Stuckey and Will Bynum are the point guards and while that isn't anywhere near the best tandem in the league, it's not bad. Bynum actually played well last year when he got minutes and Stuckey is a solid young player still trying to learn the PG position. And, both are young. Saying the Pistons have no depth at PG is debatable and something I disagree with. Are the Pistons perfect at PG? No, but they have a couple nice young players. Add a cheap veteran PG, and their depth at PG will be fine.

What cap space will they have to build around Ben and CV and Stuckey? Maybe if they are able to pull off some trades it could help and they will have some cap space next year as well, but are they ok with sucking this year? Then they will have to extend Stuckey soon. I do not see a plan in which building around CV+Ben+Stuckey will succeed. They had better be planning a trade or two..

They don't necessarily need cap space to build around Ben/CV/Stuckey if they trade Hamilton and/or Prince. All three of those guys are young and talented and have the potential to grow into really good players. If they gel together, maybe even be stars in this league. Add a solid defensive big man (by trade or with the MLE in the next few years), and the team has the semblance of a balanced quality team that can grow into a contending team in a few years.

The same b.s. excuse on how they could not trade Sheed because they were "in the playoff hunt" is now being flipped saying "they would not have won anyways". Bad job by the front office from coaching to players to trades to cap space management.

This is where most of this debate started. You criticize them for not trading Sheed, but offered no evidence to prove they would have been better off by trading him. Saying the Pistons didn't want to trade Rasheed at the trade deadline back in February does not contradict the notion that later in the season (after the trade deadline) that it was obvious the Pistons were going to rebuild after the season was over.

You can call it double talk. I just think you should make better arguments that make sense.

My bottom line point: I have no problem whether you "think" they were good or bad acquisitions. It's fine to disagree with them. But, when you come across like you did like you're asserting fact, especially with the "I don't care what Pistons fans say, this is a massive failure" and then subsequently try to argue what the Pistons should have done based on assumptions and predicated on opinion, it's useless.

We won't know whether they turn out to be good signings for another 2-3 years at the earliest, and really not until these contracts end. That's when we can really evaluate whether they were good signings or not. You seem to make the determination now even before Gordon and Villanueva even actually signed the contracts.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 01:23 AM

So you are saying the Pistons won't be able to sign anyone of importance next year with their cap space?

No. I'm saying there is no guarantee that the Pistons could have signed two players that are better than Gordon and Villanueva and also as young as them.

Rebuilding would require acquiring younger players so they aren't passed their prime after the first year or two of the contract. The only players like that available next summer are LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare. Realistically, the Pistons weren't getting any of those guys.

Weighing the chances, Dumars felt it was a better route to get two young, talented guys this summer.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 01:41 AM

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 01:47 AM

At some point, more often than not before a players contract has completely played out (likely before 5 years), a signing is judged to be good or bad. Is it later than I am doing it? Sure.

But I am predicting, not fortune telling.

So from now on, I do not want to hear you comment on anything player or talent related until the contract has completely played out. No trades can be judged by you, good or bad. No FA signings can be judged. We can pick up this convo in 5 years.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 02:05 AM

Where did I say what I said is fact? Please quote this. Where did I say the Pistons SHOULD have traded Sheed? I said is it not LIKELY they could have waited until 2010 and landed better players?

Above where I quoted your first post, you were pretty adamant at declaring it a massive failure. You didn't just say you thought they were bad signings in your opinion. You said you don't care how Piston fans try to paint it, it's a massive failure. You were making that as an assertion of fact.

Sorry, it wasn't you who said that about Rasheed.

As for landing better players in 2010, it's possible. Not guaranteed. And, that's what Dumars considered when he made his decision to get Gordon and Villanueva now. He might not get the players he wants next summer but can get players he likes this summer.

Say you meet an average looking girl at the bar tonight who whispers in your ear that she wants you. You have to work your charm a little. But, if you stay at the bar and continue to buy her drinks and then pay for a cab home, you won't be able to go to the club tomorrow night. Now, it's possible you can go to the club tomorrow night and get a better looking girl to have sex with you tomorrow night. But, it's not guaranteed. Do you work the girl at the bar tonight and end up having sex with her knowing you won't have money to go out tomorrow night. Or do you go home early and save that money for tomorrow night and risk not getting sex? There's no right answer. But Dumars decided to fuck the average looking girl.

So WTF is your point again? Making up assumptions and opinions that "if this and if that" when it "probably will not happen" is weak. So how is you "hoping" they will turn out well and me "thinking" they are bad signings different? They are both opinion. But our opinions are based on logic (unless you are hinting they could have scoring titles and make multiple all star games).

The point is simple. You weren't saying you "thought" they are bad signings. You didn't care what anyone said, it was a "massive failure." I'll I'm saying is that you can't make that determination yet. Say you "think they were bad signings and they likely won't live up to those contracts." You arguing that it doesn't matter what Pistons fans say, they are massive failures is asserting opinions as fact.

More classic double talk from J.S. So it will take them being a lottery team 3 years in a row for this to be a bad move :lol. But if they waited until 2010, where there was more talent, where they had the most capspace (or close) and they won 20 games this year as a lottery team would be a failure?

A 20 win season would be a failure, yes.

I stated marked 3 years because as suggested by what I've been saying, you can't determine how good or bad the signings are until both players are well into the contract, and not ultimately until the end of their contract. 3 lottery seasons because I will wait at least 3 seasons before I really evaluate the signings.

Michael Jordan led the Bulls to 38 wins his rookie year and then his second year in the league he got injured and only played 18 regular season games. Think it would have been fair to evaluate the selection of Michael Jordan after his first two seasons?

If the Spurs sign Bonner for 11M, would that be a bad contract in your eyes? Or would you have to let it play out in its entirety in order to assess? Or can you use logic?

This logic suggests that Matt Bonner is as good as Ben Gordon to draw a hypothetical where Bonner gets a contract for $11 million a year, unless you mean $11 million total over the course of a number of years, at which point, I can't tell you because if it's $11 million over 6 years, I wouldn't think it was too bad.

Now if you're talking about that actual $11 million contract Bonner signed for four years. At the time, I would have said it was likely a poor signing and he'd probably wouldn't have lived up to it. Now, with one year left on that contract, I think he's done a pretty good job living up to that contract. For just under $3 million a year, he's provided some pretty good play for the money, by NBA standards.

So, perception of the contract at the time of the signing would have ended up wrong. Gee, thanks for helping out my argument.

A chance that the Pistons, with the most cap space, could not land better than CV+Ben is a not a leap. It is logical. I never said for sure, but just like you always say, you never know. Just let it play out and play the odds. You are right, no guarantee, but likely. Especially if they have close to the most money to offer.

It is a huge leap. The Pistons weren't getting LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare. The other big names who are free agents next summer are on the wrong side of 30 and won't want to join the Pistons and wouldn't help anyway. They also would not be the team with the most money. There are several teams that will have more money, including Miami (more desirable than Detroit), New Jersey (New York market with Jay-Z, Devin Harris, Brook Lopez, and Courtney Lee), and Chicago.

There's a greater likelihood that with that cap space the Pistons would have ended up having to settle for Kelenna Azubuike and Al Harrington as their main 2010 free agent acquisitions rather than it is LeBron and Bosh. Does that look more appealing than Gordon/Villanueva? After going through a horrible season?

Yes, they can become good players, but do you think Gordon can really add to his game? Honestly, what can you see him morphing into that he is not already?

I'm hoping another Chauncey Billups with more scoring, but realistically, hopefully someone along the lines of a Gilbert Arenas, with no injury problems. He can work on his point guard skills. I'm hoping he does that. If he becomes a better balanced combo guard capable of playing legitimate minutes at PG, then I can see him morphing into very special player.

Do you see CV turning into a defensive oriented player? Yes they are young and talented, but so are other players. In 2010, there will be more CV's and Ben's so why commit now? The Pistons would have a ton of money to spend.

No, I don't, but hopefully the Pistons can find an above average defensive minded center. There won't be more CV's in 2010. 24 year old versatile combo forward who can score? First of all the PFs in next year's free agency are Bosh, Amare, Dirk, K-Mart, Jermaine O'Neal (PF/C), Boozer, Marcus Camby, and Al Harrington. Where are the CVs? At around 25 years of age? That can be had for $7-8 million a year? Riiiight.

Cool, so you are ok with the moves as long as the team barely makes the playoffs. If this continues 5 years from now and they are not contenders is this a failure?

No, I'm cool if the team continues to improve year after year for the life of Gordon's and Villanueva's contracts to the point that towards the end of their contracts, with other moves, the Pistons are legitimate title contenders. Then I'll be cool with the moves.

If 5 years from now, the team is a lottery team, it's a failure. If 5 years from now, Gordon and Villanueva have performed horribly or have been injury riddled or have been team cancers, then it's a failure. You know damn well that it takes a lot of factors and variables to evaluate something like this. Plus, we don't know what other moves will be made, what kind of Gasol or RJ trade might fall into the Pistons lap or how season ending injuries to Gordon and Villanueva in the first year of their contracts put the Pistons in the lottery and end up with the next Tim Duncan. Too many variables. Too many unknowns to tell you right now what may or may not make these moves. But, I do know that 5 years from now, we'll have a pretty good idea.

And now signing CV+Ben is going to save the Detroit economy and surrounding businesses :tu

Save it? No. Do the Pistons and how well they play impact the economy? Absolutely. A 20 win season would hurt the economy absolutely.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:25 AM

Say you meet an average looking girl at the bar tonight who whispers in your ear that she wants you. You have to work your charm a little. But, if you stay at the bar and continue to buy her drinks and then pay for a cab home, you won't be able to go to the club tomorrow night. Now, it's possible you can go to the club tomorrow night and get a better looking girl to have sex with you tomorrow night. But, it's not guaranteed. Do you work the girl at the bar tonight and end up having sex with her knowing you won't have money to go out tomorrow night. Or do you go home early and save that money for tomorrow night and risk not getting sex? There's no right answer. But Dumars decided to fuck the average looking girl.

If I had the most money, I would wait if it meant I could get Heidi Klum instead of going home with Kelly Clarkson because I was desperate for some.

Michael Jordan led the Bulls to 38 wins his rookie year and then his second year in the league he got injured and only played 18 regular season games. Think it would have been fair to evaluate the selection of Michael Jordan after his first two seasons?

MJ was a rookie, CV and Ben have had time to show thier stuff. Not to mention the Bucks, who salary dumped RJ to make cap space, who are also rebuilding, did not even make the QO to CV. Why is that?

This logic suggests that Matt Bonner is as good as Ben Gordon to draw a hypothetical where Bonner gets a contract for $11 million a year, unless you mean $11 million total over the course of a number of years, at which point, I can't tell you because if it's $11 million over 6 years, I wouldn't think it was too bad.

Now if you're talking about that actual $11 million contract Bonner signed for four years. At the time, I would have said it was likely a poor signing and he'd probably wouldn't have lived up to it. Now, with one year left on that contract, I think he's done a pretty good job living up to that contract. For just under $3 million a year, he's provided some pretty good play for the money, by NBA standards.

So, perception of the contract at the time of the signing would have ended up wrong. Gee, thanks for helping out my argument.

Proving that you are a hypocrite :lol You saying that you would have likely said it was a bad signing even though the contract had not played itself out? How could you?

I'm hoping another Chauncey Billups with more scoring, but realistically, hopefully someone along the lines of a Gilbert Arenas, with no injury problems. He can work on his point guard skills. I'm hoping he does that. If he becomes a better balanced combo guard capable of playing legitimate minutes at PG, then I can see him morphing into very special player.

Wow. I have never heard that before. You think Ben can turn into Billups with more scoring? What has lead you to believe he can be a true point guard the will be a finals MVP?

Yes there are a lot of variables that go into it, but what do you think is likely. Do these moves lead to a legit shot a title in your opinion? Is it likely? If so, when?

JamStone

07-02-2009, 02:27 AM

I am not saying they are not talented. I am saying I think they could have gotten more. Look at how the top championship teams are built. You have a max player+ 2 others around 12M each (averaged out). Ex: Duncan+Parker+Gino or Kobe+Pau+Odom. You have close to the 2 players and you would need a max player to fill the other void, but you said that is not likely. What do they do?

Problem with that is that Joe Dumars built the exception to this. He built a championship team with very good players and a balanced starting line-up. That's where this point gets lost

I never said it was a guarantee that the Pistons would be able to sign someone better, just likely given the fact they would have almost more cap space than anyone else.

It's my opinion that it's not likely. That's why I argued this point.

You double talk and then act like what I say is the assertion of fact, when I clearly have said it is not. Is it a strong opinion, yes, did I say I was 100% right, no. It is opinion, just like yours.

You said you don't care what Pistons fans say, that it was a massive failure. You asserted your opinion as fact.

Do you think there's any way that these two signings end up being great signings for the Pistons? Be honest. If you don't, then you asserted your opinion as fact.

I am commenting on things that have happened (signing CV+Ben) you are arguing things that may or may not happen (CV being a 3 time all-star, Ben having scoring titles, Pistons making trades...).

You've also commented on things that may or may not happen, like the Pistons signings better players in 2010. Most of your argument is based on what the Pistons "might" be able to do in 2010 and what your opinion is as to how Gordon and Villanueva will perform under their contracts. You haven't commented only on things that have happened. Come on now.

I never said the Pistons should have traded Sheed,

I already apologized for thinking that was you.

I said the logic you used back then, is not the same as now, but you are copping out and saying "it became evident" after the fact.

And I pointed out how the two things you say are contradictory aren't.

Saying it became clear later in the season that the Pistons were going to rebuild after the season does not contradict the belief in February before the trade deadline that the Pistons could challenge any team in the Eastern Conference other than the Boston Celtics.

They don't contradict. They just don't.

1)Pistons made a bad coaching decision
2) Made a bad basketball trade with Iverson
3) Acted like they would not trade Sheed because they though they can win last year (which you argued)
4) Have made questionable signings that have to work out perfectly in order to legitimately contend in the up coming years.
5) Have given up a large chunk of cap space when there is more talent available next year

Right, I argued that Dumars would not trade Sheed because he and the Pistons felt they could still challenge in the East. Careful with how you quote people. Could "challenge" in the East. You are trying to slightly twist arguments to make them appear what they aren't.

You saying: "We won't know whether they turn out to be good signings for another 2-3 years at the earliest, and really not until these contracts end. That's when we can really evaluate whether they were good signings or not. You seem to make the determination now even before Gordon and Villanueva even actually signed the contracts." is ridiculous.

No it's not. That's absolutely how it is. We won't really know if they were good signings until much later. At the very least, not before they even sign the contracts.

So you cannot say you have to wait until their contracts are over. NBA does not work like that. People signing Kwame to a large contract was judged a failure before his contract ended, were they wrong? Spurs trading Scola to the Rockets was considered a mistake but his career with the Rockets is not over, so how can we judge?

Orlando Magic trading Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill said it was a great trade for the Magic. Scouts and GMs overwhelming agreed with Darko being the #2 pick of the 2003 NBA Draft (yes, the majority felt that way, even over Carmelo). The Pistons giving the full MLE on a long term contract to Antonio McDyess who had surgery to both knees and played less than 20% of the games in his previous three seasons was viewed as a bad risk. The overwhelming majority of Detroit sports fans hated the Jerry Stackhouse/Rip Hamilton trade.

See how being a Pistons fan gives me perspective and allows me to realize you can't judge these types of things until they play themselves out.

At some point, more often than not before a players contract has completely played out (likely before 5 years), a signing is judged to be good or bad. Is it later than I am doing it? Sure.

At some point before the contract is over, sure. Before the contract is even signed? Not so much.

But I am predicting, not fortune telling.

So from now on, I do not want to hear you comment on anything player or talent related until the contract has completely played out. No trades can be judged by you, good or bad. No FA signings can be judged. We can pick up this convo in 5 years.

I didn't say don't have an opinion. But, look at your first post. Don't tell me you weren't asserting your opinion as fact. "I don't care how any Piston fan paints it, this is a massive failure." That's pretty harsh and adamant for an opinion that can't even be proven for a few years.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:29 AM

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:33 AM

Do you think this leads to a title? Be honest? If you say yes, you are stating your opinion as fact.

But you will give the Jamstone special answers and say "maybe". That way you are never wrong, just like your statement that you said "the Pistons could challenge anyone but the Celtics, I did not say they would." How can you ever be wrong?

I will say the same thing then in response. I do not like the signings and I do not think it will lead to anything, but it could. Happy?

JamStone

07-02-2009, 02:43 AM

If I had the most money, I would wait if it meant I could get Heidi Klum instead of going home with Kelly Clarkson because I was desperate for some.

And that would be your prerogative. Only you could wait and still not get Heidi Klum and then you're ass out. So, after you don't get Heidi Klum, you regret not bagging Clarkson. Again, there isn't a right or wrong answer. Dumars bagged Clarkson because he wasn't confident he could get Klum.

MJ was a rookie, CV and Ben have had time to show thier stuff. Not to mention the Bucks, who salary dumped RJ to make cap space, who are also rebuilding, did not even make the QO to CV. Why is that?

Point is to wait until later to evaluate.

Proving that you are a hypocrite :lol You saying that you would have likely said it was a bad signing even though the contract had not played itself out? How could you?

Absolutely does not. I would have an opinion about it, but I wouldn't be asserting it as fact. Have you not been reading what I've been saying. I wouldn't have said the Bonner signing was a "massive failure" no matter what anyone said. I would have given my opinion that it wasn't a good signing. I wouldn't declare it like it was a universal truth. That's the distinction I've been making this whole time.

Wow. I have never heard that before. You think Ben can turn into Billups with more scoring? What has lead you to believe he can be a true point guard the will be a finals MVP?

I clearly said that is what I'm "hoping" he morphs into. Never said that's what I expect or what I think will happen. And, I clearly said after that "realistically," Arenas.

What has led me to believe Gordon can be a true point guard that will be a finals MVP?

First of all, I never said he will be a Finals MVP. Again, I said I "hope" he could morph into a player like Billups, not that he will. Again, you don't read thoroughly enough. And, what makes me think he could be? Well, because in his first four seasons in the league, Chauncey Billups was a combo guard in the bad way, a short shooting guard with some point guard skills. He didn't become a consistently good player until his fifth season in the league in Minnesota. He didn't become a true point guard until his 7th season in the league under Larry Brown. Gordon is kind of similar to Billups when Billups became a Piston. A good scorer and a tweener combo guard, but unrefined as a point guard and undersized for a shooting guard. Now, again, I'm not expecting Gordon to become a true point guard. But, it's something I hope he can improve and that's what I hope he morphs into, which is why I stated he still can grow as a player, because if he does make those improvements, he could very well live up to his contract.

Yes there are a lot of variables that go into it, but what do you think is likely. Do these moves lead to a legit shot a title in your opinion? Is it likely? If so, when?

In all honesty, what I think is likely is that Ben Gordon does not live up to his contract and remains a close to 20 ppg scorer and undersized shooting guard who puts up decent numbers, but doesn't develop into a superstar. In all honesty, I think Charlie Villanueva outperforms his contract and becomes a solid power forward in the Eastern Conference. Not an all star, but maybe have a couple seasons where he's considered a borderline all star, putting up maybe 18/8 type numbers. Maybe similar to someone like Antawn Jamison.

What I also expect is that Dumars makes a few more changes over the next 2 years to upgrade the center position and to replace either Rip or Tayshaun or maybe both in trades or with draft picks and that by the fourth and fifth years of Gordon's and Villanueva's contracts, the Pistons are a top 3 team in the Eastern Conference. That's what I expect. And, I'd be cool with that.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:44 AM

Why couldn't you just say this in the begining and be done with it?

Good lord...just shut the fuck up already

Who are you? Why do I have to say shit? It is my opinion and that is it so STFU. Just because he has a beef with what I say does not change my stance.

lol your avatar.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:48 AM

Just like you said you apologized for saying I said trade Sheed, I said even though I said "no matter what Piston fans say", that it was not fact, so why do you keep bringing that up?

Also, I know you did not say it was likely on a bunch of things, but that you hoped. So what is the point? This is the entire point I am trying to make, what do you think will happen based on what you have seen? You finally answered that with some kind of concrete stance.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 02:49 AM

And since when are NBA teams in the business of saving the economy? So all of the 20 win teams are screwing their cities over? They should sign players that will "keep them competitive" but imo hinder their chances to win down the road so the local economy does not fail?

Not every city has the same economic situation as Metropolitan Detroit. A 20 win team will result in empty home games. An around .500 team that has young and exciting players won't have empty home games.

Do you think this leads to a title? Be honest? If you say yes, you are stating your opinion as fact.

Probably not. I don't know. I'd like to see what other moves the Pistons make over the next two or so years first. That's my honest opinion.

But you will give the Jamstone special answers and say "maybe". That way you are never wrong, just like your statement that you said "the Pistons could challenge anyone but the Celtics, I did not say they would." How can you ever be wrong?

Not so I'm never wrong. But so I'm not a fucking ass who is claiming something that has five years to be evaluated is a massive failure before it even happens.

Hey, a post you're going to make Saturday morning will be a massive failure. I don't care what anyone says.

I will say the same thing then in response. I do not like the signings and I do not think it will lead to anything, but it could. Happy?

See. I wouldn't have a gripe with that at all. And, I wouldn't argue it.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:52 AM

Just bc Jamstone would agree and not argue does not make it right. You are the most on the fence person on the site. Good poster, but a fence rider. You are like Yoda.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:54 AM

Not so I'm never wrong. But so I'm not a fucking ass who is claiming something that has five years to be evaluated is a massive failure before it even happens.

Hey, a post you're going to make Saturday morning will be a massive failure. I don't care what anyone says.

You could say that and I would not cry about it. I would simply say you could not evaluate my post on Saturday, especially because it has not even been posted yet. We would have to wait 5 years to see if the post was or was not good.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 02:56 AM

Point being you could have saved us all the trouble by exchanging your love letters elsewhere or at least condensing everything into one simple post

"I hate what Detroit did...they should've kept Oberto so we couldn't bring his ass back"

1) You do not have to read the thread. That is your own fault.
2) It was a discussion between two big boy posters.
3) Shhhh.

JamStone

07-02-2009, 02:58 AM

Read your first post in this thread and you decide how you come across.

All of this, your posts, my posts, all just opinions and all have ended up becoming gibberish and senseless arguing anyway. It's fine for you to think whatever you want to think.

Things is I don't even like the signings all that much. But, I'm not going to slam them with the argument that they "possibly could have done better" next off season. That's one of the more relevant points I should have emphasized instead of responding to every little point you and I made back and forth to each other. It's tough to argue that the signings are bad using a comparison of what they "might" have been able to have gotten in 2010.

That's really the only point I'd like to make or discuss at this point. The rest of the stuff was arguing for arguing sake for both of us.

DPG21920

07-02-2009, 03:01 AM

I agree. Even through all of the other stuff, I knew the fundamental difference lay in our thoughts about 2010.

You are a bird in the hand type guy, and I just think CV+Ben are not worth it. They are not terrible and could be nice, but I am thinking only about chips. Who knows?

tomtom

07-02-2009, 03:28 AM

Ben Gordon really was the catalyst on that team during the Playoffs.

I think Salmons is a really under-rated guy but you are cool with Ben Gordon gone?

He's great talent no doubt but in all honesty he's simply AI 2.0. It might be tough to replace his offense but in reality the Bulls got as far as they could've hoped with Ben Gordon and I think it's best he's moved on. Also don't forget that Hinrich is still very servicable and Rose is only going to get better. It might take a few more years but the Bulls have a pretty good future imo.

Spursfan092120

07-08-2009, 11:59 PM

I just still don't understand how the OP still doesn't have an epic Arnold avatar from Kindergarten Cop.