CNN:Karl Rove, conservatives "perplexed" by Sarah Palin's resignation

[Winehole23]

Conservatives taken aback by Palin's decision to resign (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/05/palin.reaction/)




Astounding. Risky. Quitter. And that's what fellow conservatives had to say Sunday about Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her decision to step down with 18 months left in her term.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/POLITICS/07/05/palin.reaction/art.palin.gi.jpgAlaska Gov. Sarah Palin announced Friday that she will step down this month.


http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif


Democrats left it to Republican and conservative voices to assess what Friday's unexpected announcement by Palin means for her and a possible run for the 2012 GOP presidential nomination. For example, Vice President Joe Biden called it a personal decision, offering no analysis of why she did it.


By contrast, those on the political right acknowledged that they didn't know what to make of it.


Karl Rove, the "architect" of George W. Bush's successful presidential campaigns, said the resignation left many of Palin's fellow Republicans "a little perplexed."


"It's a risky strategy," Rove told "Fox News Sunday."


"Astounding," was the pronouncement by Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa, and conservative columnist George Will said Palin (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Sarah_Palin) was declaring herself a quitter.


Palin, who was Sen. John McCain's vice presidential candidate in the 2008 election, said she already knew she would not seek a second term and decided against being a lame duck governor for the next 18 months.


She also complained that too much time and too many taxpayer dollars were going toward fighting ethics investigations and that the mainstream media were continuing with unfair attacks on her and her family.


Some analysts believe that Palin will seek the 2012 Republican presidential nomination and that her resignation is intended to free her to prepare.
Rove, whom Bush dubbed "the Architect" for managing his successful presidential campaigns in 2000 and 2004, said stepping down now won't lessen the media spotlight on Palin. In fact, he said, leaving the governor's office takes away her platform for controlling her agenda and message."The media, if she wants to run for president, is going to be following her for the next 3½ years," said Rove, who called the move unclear and therefore a potentially harmful strategy for a politician. "Effective strategies in politics are ones that are so clear and obvious that people can grasp. ... It's not clear what she's doing and why."


Grassley told the CBS program "Face the Nation" that he had "no insight into why she did it."


"I would think, if you want to run for president -- and I'm not sure that's got anything to do with what she's doing -- that the forum of a governorship would be a better forum than just being a private citizen," the veteran senator said.


Will told the ABC program "This Week" that he had "no idea why she did this."


"The one that rings most hollow is, she doesn't want to put Alaska (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Alaska) through the terror of [her] being a lame-duck governor," Will said. "If she is just weary of it, one can understand that. Still, she made a contract with [voters] to serve out her term. And she said, in her own words, she now is a quitter."


Republican (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/U_S_Republican_Party_Politics) Sen. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska criticized Palin's decision as abandoning the state's voters. Palin defeated Murkowski's father the gubernatorial election in 2006.


But Alaska Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell, also on the Fox program, said Sunday that Murkowski's statement disappointed him because it failed to recognize all that Palin has accomplished in her 2½ years in office.


"She doesn't need a title to effect change and bring some hope to people who need it," said Parnell, a Republican who stands to become governor when Palin steps down this month.


Palin had no public appearances Sunday, but she encouraged her followers via Twitter to ignore the pundits.


"Critics are spinning, so hang in there as they feed false info on the right decision made as I enter last yr in office to not run again," her Twitter message said.


In an Independence Day message to supporters, Palin said she was leaving office for a "higher calling."


"How sad that Washington and the media will never understand; it's about country," Palin said in a statement attributed to her on her Facebook page. "And though it's honorable for countless others to leave their positions for a higher calling and without finishing a term, of course we know by now, for some reason a different standard applies for the decisions I make. But every American understands what it takes to make a decision because it's right for all, including your family."


Palin said her administration had "accomplished more during this one term than most governors do in two."


"We have accomplished so much, and there's much more to do, but my family and I determined after prayerful consideration that sacrificing my title helps Alaska most," she said. "And once I decided not to run for re-election, my decision was that much easier. I've never been one to waste time or resources."


Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008, noted that Palin will remain in the media spotlight regardless of whether she is governor.


"The challenge that she's going to have is that there will be people who will say, 'Look, if they chased you out of this, it won't get any easier at other levels,' " Huckabee said. "It could be a brilliant strategy. The point is, we don't know."


Huckabee called a presidential campaign "brutal" and said a Republican primary will ratchet up the pressure on Palin.

"When your opponents within your own team spend millions of dollars to redefine you, it's very, very difficult," Huckabee said

[Winehole23]

"I think it hurts," Rove told host Chris Wallace. "When you're a sitting governor, you have the tactical advantage if you're thinking about running for president of turning down a lot of things with an excuse that people will accept. 'I've got a job to do as governor.' She's now removed that. Now the expectations are going to be she's going to be fully available, she's going to be able to come to the lower 48, and she's going to be able to do whatever people ask her to do. And that's going to be a problem. It raises the expectations.

[Winehole23]

John Weaver, a former strategist for the McCain campaign said “If this is her launching pad for 2012, it's a curious move. Policy is politics, and she has no real accomplishments as governor" according to the AP. (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PALIN_ANALYSIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-07-04-14-24-32)

[Winehole23]

Daily Kos -- based on nothing, as clear as I can tell -- has suggested that Palin may be mulling a run as a third party candidate.

[Winehole23]

If she does, GOP presidential hopes are dead in the water for 2012.

[ploto]

Her ramblings on facebook and twitter make no more sense than her press conference. Is it about family or is it about country? And for what higher calling is she resigning? It is not like she was asked to be a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet member. Her interviews and statements all still read like someone who threw together a bunch of buzz words.

[DMX7]

Daily Kos -- based on nothing, as clear as I can tell -- has suggested that Palin may be mulling a run as a third party candidate.

She may run as a third party candidate? What party is that? The Alaska Hillbilly Party?

[Winehole23]

I doubt she will, DMX.

[BlackSwordsMan]

bitch went crazy

[DMX7]

I doubt she will, DMX.

It would be so great if she did. She would absolutely end the Republican Party.

[whottt]

I could see her splitting off from the Republican Party, it's not like they've been supportive of her. Furthermore she also might feel that the Republican Party itself is against giving her the nomination.

And the glaringly obvious thing is that if she is giving up her Governor's salary she's obviously planning on making her income elsewhere.


Ron Paul makes a fortune off just running for President...


I totally agree with her decision if she says fuck the Republicans...they are pretty much fucking clueless and and mired in whining bitching and infighting. These same guys bitching now are the ones that started bitching right before the election...they basically serve the Democratic Party if they do that.

And the obvious thing is, whether she splits or not, the Republicans have virtually no chance of winning if they run Jindal, she is likely to garne a huge PCT of Republican votes whether she's a Republican or not.

[Wild Cobra]

I could see her splitting off from the Republican Party, it's not like they've been supportive of her. Furthermore she also might feel that the Republican Party itself is against giving her the nomination.

And the glaringly obvious thing is that if she is giving up her Governor's salary she's obviously planning on making her income elsewhere.


Ron Paul makes a fortune off just running for President...


I totally agree with her decision if she says fuck the Republicans...they are pretty much fucking clueless and and mired in whining bitching and infighting. These same guys bitching now are the ones that started bitching right before the election...they basically serve the Democratic Party if they do that.

And the obvious thing is, whether she splits or not, the Republicans have virtually no chance of winning if they run Jindal, she is likely to garne a huge PCT of Republican votes whether she's a Republican or not.
She would really put the Constitution Party on the map if she joined them.

[angrydude]

The problem with Palin loving conservatives is for some reason they see her as a leader.

She's not. They only like her because they relate to her.

[whottt]

The problem with Palin loving conservatives is for some reason they see her as a leader.

She's not.

She was a PG named barracuda that won a state championship..

Which is like 10 times anything Obama has on his leadership record.



They only like her because they relate to her.

Which is pretty much the most powerful political attraction there is.

[DMX7]

The problem with Palin loving conservatives is for some reason they see her as a leader.

She's not. They only like her because they relate to her.

This reminds me of Bush. Conservatives loved him because they thought he was the kind of guy they would like to "have a beer" with. That's doesn't make you a leader capable of making big decisions.

[jman3000]

This reminds me of Bush. Conservatives loved him because they thought he was the kind of guy they would like to "have a beer" with. That's doesn't make you a leader capable of making big decisions.

Except conservatives were fairly united under Bush's first election.

Palin would be such a bad candidate that half would like her and the other half wouldn't.

I want her to run. If nothing more than to see how the other Republican candidates handle her. Do they continue to coddle her like they have been doing and allow her to win the nomination... or do they attack her like they would anybody else and bring her down.

[ElNono]

Except conservatives were fairly united under Bush's first election.

Palin would be such a bad candidate that half would like her and the other half wouldn't.

I want her to run. If nothing more than to see how the other Republican candidates handle her. Do they continue to coddle her like they have been doing and allow her to win the nomination... or do they attack her like they would anybody else and bring her down.

She wouldn't survive the primaries. That's my guess.
Let's see if she runs and what happens.

[LnGrrrR]

She was a PG named barracuda that won a state championship..

Which is like 10 times anything Obama has on his leadership record.




Except, you know, running a campaign that gets you elected president.

[SonOfAGun]

oh wellllllz

I guess I'll have to look for hope in some place other than politics now. Darn :depressed

[angrydude]

let me rephrase: she has no appeal to anyone as a leader except to the conservatives who relate to her.

That's hardly a formula for national political success.

[Winehole23]

She would really put the Constitution Party on the map if she joined them.Yeah. She'd be their Ross Perot.

[Winehole23]

Team Obama can start popping the 2012 champagne if Palin declares a third party run.

[whottt]

Except, you know, running a campaign that gets you elected president.


Oh well, she's never run for President yet and she's run as many campaigns to be elected as Obama had prior to becoming President. Actually more I think.

The PG thing is still more impressive.

10X.

And getting elected President has nothing to do with leadership.

[whottt]

Anyway I know how important that Rove endorsement was going to be to the board libs when making their decision who to vote for in 2012...I see we're probably lost 10-12 of you now. Fuck.

[Extra Stout]

The best way to demonstrate leadership is by not leading, by determining "You know, I don't want to lead anymore," and just quitting. That shows decisive action. It takes real integrity to quit, and that is integrity America needs.

Or, maybe it just takes looking around and saying, "My administration is such a train wreck and a distraction that everyone would be better off if I just left." But you know, America needs that train wreck, needs that distraction, in the White House, leading America by not leading.

Palin 2012 -- The Integrity to Quit, the Courage not to Lead

[Extra Stout]

I remember the great Ronald Reagan, who responded to savage and unfair media criticism in the early 1980's by quitting the Presidency so he could focus on his 1984 campaign for President.

[whottt]

Damn, so the stupid bitch who cost McCain the election and had no chance of being elected has now completely fucked her chances of being elected.

Why don't ya'll just say you have mindless hatred of this woman and drop all pretentions that there is a rational reason for it. There's not one.

You simply hate her.

You have since the instant she was nominated. You just do.

[ElNono]

The best way to demonstrate leadership is by not leading, by determining "You know, I don't want to lead anymore," and just quitting. That shows decisive action. It takes real integrity to quit, and that is integrity America needs.

Or, maybe it just takes looking around and saying, "My administration is such a train wreck and a distraction that everyone would be better off if I just left." But you know, America needs that train wreck, needs that distraction, in the White House, leading America by not leading.

Palin 2012 -- The Integrity to Quit, the Courage not to Lead

Hilarious.

[Extra Stout]

Seriously, Sarah Palin is the most galactically incompetent and dysfunctional right-wing politician on the national stage in discernable memory. She is a complete joke, a train wreck, a disaster, and a clown. People who think that liberals, or anybody else is "afraid" or her because she is some huge political threat live in their own deranged little world. People are "afraid" of her in the same way they would be if, say, Gary Busey, or Lindsay Lohan, or a guest on the Jerry Springer Show came close to the Presidency. She is Charles II of Spain minus the inbreeding. Her following comes because, despite lacking any discernable skill in governing, she has a lot of charisma and is physically attractive. That is it.

I think in a world with $150 oil, I could have governed Alaska better than she could, and so could most of the professionals who post in this forum. Now that oil is down around $60 and she has a national profile, it has become obvious that is in way over her head and has no idea what she is doing, even on the scale of her sparsely populated, folksy state. So she quit.

She just needs to go away as soon as possible, not that it's going to happen. She's sniffed the glue of fame, and despite what it does to her family, it's intoxicating, and she won't put it away. She'll keep sniffing. And, dontcha know, she's going rogue now, with no responsibilities to anyone, free to wreak havoc on the national party with her own brand of reckless stupidity, with no coherent agenda, no message control, no interest in policy, nothing but idle indulgence in this cult of personality which has emerged around her.

And who knows, maybe this slowly unfolding train wreck leading up to 2012 will be what destroys the Republican Party once and for all.

Marvelous.

[whottt]

Maybe you should actually find out if she's intending to run for President before judging the wisdom behind this move.

Maybe you guys have been successful in driving her from the political arena.

Pat yourself on the back stout, you proved she's not a real man like you are.

[whottt]

She just needs to go away as soon as possible, not that it's going to happen. She's sniffed the glue of fame, and despite what it does to her family, it's intoxicating, and she won't put it away. She'll keep sniffing. And, dontcha know, she's going rogue now, with no responsibilities to anyone, free to wreak havoc on the national party with her own brand of reckless stupidity, with no coherent agenda, no message control, no interest in policy, nothing but idle indulgence in this cult of personality which has emerged around her.

And who knows, maybe this slowly unfolding train wreck leading up to 2012 will be what destroys the Republican Party once and for all.

Marvelous.



Eh fuck the Republicans...I would not have voted for them in this past election if she hadn't been on the ticket.

[ElNono]

Seriously, Sarah Palin is the most galactically incompetent and dysfunctional right-wing politician on the national stage in discernable memory. She is a complete joke, a train wreck, a disaster, and a clown. People who think that liberals, or anybody else is "afraid" or her because she is some huge political threat live in their own deranged little world. People are "afraid" of her in the same way they would be if, say, Gary Busey, or Lindsay Lohan, or a guest on the Jerry Springer Show came close to the Presidency. She is Charles II of Spain minus the inbreeding. Her following comes because, despite lacking any discernable skill in governing, she has a lot of charisma and is physically attractive. That is it.

I think in a world with $150 oil, I could have governed Alaska better than she could, and so could most of the professionals who post in this forum. Now that oil is down around $60 and she has a national profile, it has become obvious that is in way over her head and has no idea what she is doing, even on the scale of her sparsely populated, folksy state. So she quit.

She just needs to go away as soon as possible, not that it's going to happen. She's sniffed the glue of fame, and despite what it does to her family, it's intoxicating, and she won't put it away. She'll keep sniffing. And, dontcha know, she's going rogue now, with no responsibilities to anyone, free to wreak havoc on the national party with her own brand of reckless stupidity, with no coherent agenda, no message control, no interest in policy, nothing but idle indulgence in this cult of personality which has emerged around her.

And who knows, maybe this slowly unfolding train wreck leading up to 2012 will be what destroys the Republican Party once and for all.

Marvelous.

Strictly From a democracy standpoint, I certainly hope she doesn't destroy the Republican party.
As flawed our current political system might be, I think democracy is best served when there's a change of party in government. If anything, we need more parties, not less.

[Extra Stout]

Maybe you should actually find out if she's intending to run for President before judging the wisdom behind this move.

Maybe you guys have been successful in driving her from the political arena.

Pat yourself on the back stout, you proved she's not a real man like you are.
Like we could be so lucky.

Maybe she really is leaving politics, but is so utterly inarticulate that she can't even get the words "I am leaving politics" out of her mouth. However, I doubt it.

My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. Conservatism is not about any kind of ideology of smaller government or lower spending or lower taxes or traditional values anymore. Lip service might be paid to those things, but they are just empty words and empty ideas serving as shibboleths. Sure, there are think tanks working out how to reconcile conservative principles with today's problems, but nobody is really paying any attention to the Newt Gingriches of the world. Being an educated conservative defeats the purpose, because the rank-and-file have no idea what the "educated" conservative is talking about, and if he's "educated" then he's probably not being left in the dust by the modern world like they are anyway.

And if that's what conservatism is now, then conservatism is dead. We can look over and over again at history to see what comes of a political climate where a large group of people who think they used to be on top find themselves being left behind culturally, economically, and politically. Right-wing politics ceases to be about any kind of ideological "conservatism" and becomes populist and authoritarian.

[whottt]

Strictly From a democracy standpoint, I certainly hope she doesn't destroy the Republican party.
But but, she's an incompetent idiot that cost McCain the election, how can her political demise lead to the destruction of the Republican Party?



As flawed our current political system might be, I think democracy is best served when there's a change of party in government. If anything, we need more parties, not less.




… I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.



- George Washington



The destruction of one party is the destruction of both and both of ours need a little destroying.

[Oh, Gee!!]

She was a PG named barracuda that won a state championship.

al bundy scored 5 touchdowns in one game for Polk H.S.

[boutons_deux]

"the wisdom behind this move" --- Whott-the-Fucktard

:lol :lol :lol :lol

For Whott, his Love is Blind for his stupid pitbull bitch.

wisdom? :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Ignignokt]

Like we could be so lucky.

Maybe she really is leaving politics, but is so utterly inarticulate that she can't even get the words "I am leaving politics" out of her mouth. However, I doubt it.

My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. Conservatism is not about any kind of ideology of smaller government or lower spending or lower taxes or traditional values anymore. Lip service might be paid to those things, but they are just empty words and empty ideas serving as shibboleths. Sure, there are think tanks working out how to reconcile conservative principles with today's problems, but nobody is really paying any attention to the Newt Gingriches of the world. Being an educated conservative defeats the purpose, because the rank-and-file have no idea what the "educated" conservative is talking about, and if he's "educated" then he's probably not being left in the dust by the modern world like they are anyway.

And if that's what conservatism is now, then conservatism is dead. We can look over and over again at history to see what comes of a political climate where a large group of people who think they used to be on top find themselves being left behind culturally, economically, and politically. Right-wing politics ceases to be about any kind of ideological "conservatism" and becomes populist and authoritarian.


You wanted a clear and concise statement out of her, yet being the totally smart guy you are, that wouldn't have helped the situation any, infact make it worse.

"I'm leaving politics for good."

I'm sure she wouldn't catch flak for that Stout. Seriously, you should become campaign manager.

And about Sarah, being some mother who feels as though she's losing her kids? Wth?

I see alot of assumption on the part of Extra stout. First assuming that Sarah Palin didn't expect any of her children to fall and make mistakes. "Oh, no!!", seriously. What Sarah has gone through, many american families have gone through since the begining of time. People have free will, i know you know that, and we can only teach our offspring so much.

The fact that you have judged Sarah Palin's motherhood capabilities only on the simple fact that Bristol got pregnant, is highly assinine. You only proved that you can focus on the negative, and that you ignored the positive.

How bout the fact that her son enlisted in the armed forces? Why can't that be an example of success in the parenting of the palins? Why is it not surprising that condescending twits like you fell for the narrative of the democrat party in judging her family's good intentions on a mistake?

How is this different than any american family who goes through the same problems the palins go through.

Infact Why are we sitting here, knowing only little about their family, what qualifies us to judge their intentions?

I mean, ES, you complain about conservatism becoming all about identity politics, yet you seem to employ that same mindset when it comes to judging a family.

Not too long ago, i even remember you bitching about Newt, saying that you would never take the man seriously, and now you want him to be the voice?

You're harder to figure out than i previously thought.

[Ignignokt]

"the wisdom behind this move" --- Whott-the-Fucktard

:lol :lol :lol :lol

For Whott, his Love is Blind for his stupid pitbull bitch.

wisdom? :lol :lol :lol :lol

Boutons part deuce, part corn.

[whottt]

Like we could be so lucky.

Maybe she really is leaving politics, but is so utterly inarticulate that she can't even get the words "I am leaving politics" out of her mouth. However, I doubt it.

To tell you the truth, I don't think she's leaving politics either, I think she wants to find out where she stands VS the rest of the Republican Party. To see if she's going to be dictated too, or do the dictating.

She's already got the most politically active segment of the base behind her, the pro-lifers, you will not sway them from her. And they're the ones that go out and run campaigns at the ground level, not the wealthy business owners.



My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

I think her appeal with that segment is that she has stayed married to her husband and still fucks him.....plus she's hot.




But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. Conservatism is not about any kind of ideology of smaller government or lower spending or lower taxes or traditional values anymore. Lip service might be paid to those things, but they are just empty words and empty ideas serving as shibboleths. Sure, there are think tanks working out how to reconcile conservative principles with today's problems, but nobody is really paying any attention to the Newt Gingriches of the world. Being an educated conservative defeats the purpose, because the rank-and-file have no idea what the "educated" conservative is talking about, and if he's "educated" then he's probably not being left in the dust by the modern world like they are anyway.

And if that's what conservatism is now, then conservatism is dead. We can look over and over again at history to see what comes of a political climate where a large group of people who think they used to be on top find themselves being left behind culturally, economically, and politically. Right-wing politics ceases to be about any kind of ideological "conservatism" and becomes populist and authoritarian.


I feel your pain, unfortunately I don't subscribe to either party platform, or either political inclination, the whole collective thought block thing doesn't appeal to me. I'm anti-extremist(which makes me anti-democrat at this moment in time) and I considered an Iraq pullout to be as stupid as the decision to go in in the first place, that is totality of why I have voted Republican in the past 2 elections.


I personally think Sarah Palin is more popular than the Rebublican Party is at this particular moment in time, I think it's a huge mistake for them to go after her. I think it's a mistake to call her stupid or a quitter. Then again, the real case might be that she's about go after them so they have no choice.


My take on this past election is that McCain had not a snowball's chance in hell of winning this election and it is was only as close as it was because she was added to the ticket. I actually think it would have been closer if she'd been the nominee.

I think pretty much it was a done deal that Obama was going to be the next President and he had massive momentum in his favor...I think there were many people that simply weren't willing to change their vote that late in the game.


Whether you feel she's eloquent or not, she's got 10 times more charisma than McCain had and is the only one I currently see in the Republican Party that has a chance of matching Obama in the charisma department.

Elections are won by the better looking and more charismatic politican, and she's definitely better looking than Obama and I personally think she's more charismatic, but I realize that is not a universal opinion.

I will vote for her simply because I like her and her family better than anyone else I see on the political horizon and I'm sick of lawyers and Ivyleaguers running this country.


Jindal? I've never even cared enough to watch him give a speech. I doubt I ever will.

[coyotes_geek]

This reminds me of Bush. Conservatives loved him because they thought he was the kind of guy they would like to "have a beer" with. That's doesn't make you a leader capable of making big decisions.

Same thing goes for Obama..........

[ElNono]

But but, she's an incompetent idiot that cost McCain the election, how can her political demise lead to the destruction of the Republican Party?

You got that backwards. Her political survival is what can destroy the Republican Party.



… I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.



- George Washington



The destruction of one party is the destruction of both and both of ours need a little destroying.

I'm not against a little destroying. Reinventing the parties has been a constant throughout their lifetimes. What I don't want to see is a complete downfall. I don't think it serves our democracy.

[Extra Stout]

Ignignokt, you have nothing to say and never have. You pretend not to understand what people write so you can erect strawmen. Some people are ignorant, but you just pretend to be ignorant because you have a gift for lies. And then, of course, whenever you get called on it, you revert to filth like a 16-year-old. You are completely worthless.

Please go walk in front of a bus or find some other way to kill yourself. It's the best thing you could possibly do for the world.

[Ignignokt]

President Obama admitted that it took him four months to prepare for the presidency, and that's with him voting present, running nothing and campaigning on platitudes most of the time and silly jingoisms (Jingoisms from Obama = enlightnened, Jingoisms with SP = Redneck with Fucked up family).He ran nothing, he accomplished nothing except running for president while in office. Guy was given his own team to handle him, in which he had the power to control the message, not to mention an accomplished media.

Onto Palin, she went into the convention cold turkey, without any preperation, in control of any of her message, nor with her own devout staff managing her bookings.

She ran out corruption in alaksa, got her citizens money back, and was popular in alaska because of her policies, her accomplishments. I think her accepting the VP was her biggest fault, now that i think about it..

It allowed a vicous media to focus on every detail in her life without SP having any alliegances in Washington to stop any of this insanity.

and now what you get is, "her daughter got pregnant, she's fucked up her family is fucked up and oh my... i wonder why her ratings are down?".

[whottt]

The parties being destroyed is BS, I mean I've been rooting for one or the other to go down for years now...all that will happen is that a bunch of Republicans will become Democrats and the Democratic party will become more moderate not to mention dysfunctional.

[Ignignokt]

My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. .



What is there not to understand liar.

i am responding to this crap that came from your post.

If you didn't write it, my bad.

But you did, i called out your small mindedness and now you're acting indignant and wish death upon me.

Who's acting like the adult here?

[ElNono]

The only party she polarizes is the Republican party. I've yet to find a democrat that likes her. I doubt she could run the primaries successfully, so that would force her to run outside the party, basically assuring slam dunk wins for Democrats, while leaving the Republican party fractured.
I think this is what ES was talking about and probably is the worst case scenario, but I agree it's completely plausible.

[Ignignokt]

Just face it you little weasel, you judged her family by Bristol's action and now you look like a jackass.

So unless you had another reason why you said their family was fucked up, unless you know something that we all don't know.. enlighten us.

[SonOfAGun]

Maybe she just thought, "fuck it, this country of ungrateful ignorant herd americants doesn't deserve my time. I will retire in beautiful alaska with my beautiful family making beautiful millions of dollars. Let them waste away with their idiot government while I relax and enjoy life."

Right now we have a government that cares more about growing themselves than the economy. And you fools think it could be so much worse. You are a joke.

[Extra Stout]

The parties being destroyed is BS, I mean I've been rooting for one or the other to go down for years now...all that will happen is that a bunch of Republicans will become Democrats and the Democratic party will become more moderate not to mention dysfunctional.
And ultimately that probably splits the Democratic party in two, with the blue dogs and moderates becoming the new "conservative" party.

Which is all well and good, except that what today is the consensus of the Democratic Party becomes the new "moderate" view, center-left ideology becomes the new "conservatism," and the leftist fringe becomes the new "mainstream liberalism." Which means that the public consensus becomes that we need an ever-expanding government bureaucracy to meet the needs of the ever-expanding government bureaucracy, which is of course an unsustainable way of doing things that inevitably leads to national insolvency.

Meanwhile, there remains 20% of the country, the old "right-wing base," which is getting left behind, now feeling totally disenfranchised, with the country falling apart around it.

This is a recipe for people to take refuge in a charismatic leader to tell them everything is going to be all right if they give him the power to fix it. This is a recipe for people to find scapegoats and start shooting at them. This gets into the details of why I keep predicting that is going to happen.

So phenomena like the Sarah Palin experience reinforce my sinking feeling that America in the 2030's/2040's is going to be like Europe in the 1930's/1940's, not specifically because of who she is or what she is doing, but because this saga makes the most sense when viewed through the lens of my most catastrophic predictions, and I really don't want to be right.

[Ignignokt]

And ultimately that probably splits the Democratic party in two, with the blue dogs and moderates becoming the new "conservative" party.

Which is all well and good, except that what today is the consensus of the Democratic Party becomes the new "moderate" view, center-left ideology becomes the new "conservatism," and the leftist fringe becomes the new "mainstream liberalism." Which means that the public consensus becomes that we need an ever-expanding government bureaucracy to meet the needs of the ever-expanding government bureaucracy, which is of course an unsustainable way of doing things that inevitably leads to national insolvency.

Meanwhile, there remains 20% of the country, the old "right-wing base," which is getting left behind, now feeling totally disenfranchised, with the country falling apart around it.

This is a recipe for people to take refuge in a charismatic leader to tell them everything is going to be all right if they give him the power to fix it. This is a recipe for people to find scapegoats and start shooting at them. This gets into the details of why I keep predicting that is going to happen.

So phenomena like the Sarah Palin experience reinforce my sinking feeling that America in the 2030's/2040's is going to be like Europe in the 1930's/1940's, not specifically because of who she is or what she is doing, but because this saga makes the most sense when viewed through the lens of my most catastrophic predictions, and I really don't want to be right.

Where's the part where you admit to being a certified grade "A" jackass? I'm missing this from your nuanced commentary.

[SonOfAGun]

This is a recipe for people to take refuge in a charismatic leader to tell them everything is going to be all right if they give him the power to fix it.Seeing as how the far-left will be expanding their control exponentially at this time in your scenario, I doubt the disenfranchised "conservatives" would look for a leader like that. It'll probably be more of a Fred Thompson type of guy who says what he wants to say and doesn't take shit.

[ElNono]

Maybe she just thought, "fuck it, this country of ungrateful ignorant herd americants doesn't deserve my time. I will retire in beautiful alaska with my beautiful family making beautiful millions of dollars. Let them waste away with their idiot government while I relax and enjoy life."

Right now we have a government that cares more about growing themselves than the economy. And you fools think it could be so much worse. You are a joke.

I don't like what Obama is doing any more than you do. But don't think for a second this political class can't do worse.

[Ignignokt]

Like we could be so lucky.

Maybe she really is leaving politics, but is so utterly inarticulate that she can't even get the words "I am leaving politics" out of her mouth. However, I doubt it.

My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. Conservatism is not about any kind of ideology of smaller government or lower spending or lower taxes or traditional values anymore. Lip service might be paid to those things, but they are just empty words and empty ideas serving as shibboleths. Sure, there are think tanks working out how to reconcile conservative principles with today's problems, but nobody is really paying any attention to the Newt Gingriches of the world. Being an educated conservative defeats the purpose, because the rank-and-file have no idea what the "educated" conservative is talking about, and if he's "educated" then he's probably not being left in the dust by the modern world like they are anyway.

And if that's what conservatism is now, then conservatism is dead. We can look over and over again at history to see what comes of a political climate where a large group of people who think they used to be on top find themselves being left behind culturally, economically, and politically. Right-wing politics ceases to be about any kind of ideological "conservatism" and becomes populist and authoritarian.

:wakeup, still waiting..

[SonOfAGun]

lol recession.

She will leave a $160k job and get a pay raise.

[Ignignokt]

what a sad little man...

[Winehole23]

Fred Barnes predicts a Palin return to presidential politics...in 2020 (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/700nykxe.asp?pg=2).

[Wild Cobra]

Palin would be such a bad candidate that half would like her and the other half wouldn't.

Funny how the only people who believe such bullshit are the liberals and RINOs.

[ElNono]

Funny how the only people who believe such bullshit are the liberals and RINOs.

Which happens to be what, 50% of the electorate?

[Wild Cobra]

Fred Barnes predicts a Palin return to presidential politics...in 2020 (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/700nykxe.asp?pg=2).
I'm not going to bother reading that article, but the idea makes sense. She has a special needs child, and can stay at home writing her book. He will be 12 then and not need full time attention.

[boutons_deux]

pitbull bitch plays to the extreme right wing/"Christian" supremacists/right-wing-terrorists/bubbas/sheeple/red-state dumbfucks/militia men/nativists/NRA whacko industry. The "conservative" honchos see her as another ignorant, feckless, manipulable, idea-free, in-WAY-over-her-head puppet, as dubya was.

[Winehole23]

You know, when a dog vomits and then eats the vomit?

Your post was like that, b_d.

Re-breakfast.

[Winehole23]

Ick.

[Extra Stout]

Just face it you little weasel, you judged her family by Bristol's action and now you look like a jackass.

So unless you had another reason why you said their family was fucked up, unless you know something that we all don't know.. enlighten us.
Maybe you really are just that stupid? I don't know.

Yes, having a child who gets pregnant as a teen with a piece of trash like that Levi Johnston character, and having to deal with that, and then having the sister-in-law go to prison, qualifies as having a screwed-up family. Lots of people have screwed-up families. It doesn't mean they are bad people. Somebody might question their fitness for leadership, but then again, Bill Clinton's background was pretty screwed up.

But see, that was obvious from the context. The context was that people with traditional family values whose families nonetheless end up a mess might identify with Palin. But because you a liar and a malelovent piece of garbage who specializes not in debate but rather in twisting words, and then just calling people gay when that doesn't work out, so you try to turn it into some judgment against Palin as a mom. I never said that, implied that, or otherwise. You are a vile liar.

So don't talk to me about acting like a adult. You are utterly worthless, devoid of character, devoid of value.

[Extra Stout]

You know, when a dog vomits and then eats the vomit?

Your post was like that, b_d.

Re-breakfast.
Ignore him. I think he has Internet Tourette's.

[Winehole23]

The johnny-one-note routine finally wore me down. But you're right, and I usually do.

[Ignignokt]

Maybe you really are just that stupid? I don't know.

Yes, having a child who gets pregnant as a teen with a piece of trash like that Levi Johnston character, and having to deal with that, and then having the sister-in-law go to prison, qualifies as having a screwed-up family. Lots of people have screwed-up families. It doesn't mean they are bad people. Somebody might question their fitness for leadership, but then again, Bill Clinton's background was pretty screwed up.

But see, that was obvious from the context. The context was that people with traditional family values whose families nonetheless end up a mess might identify with Palin. But because you a liar and a malelovent piece of garbage who specializes not in debate but rather in twisting words, and then just calling people gay when that doesn't work out, so you try to turn it into some judgment against Palin as a mom. I never said that, implied that, or otherwise. You are a vile liar.

So don't talk to me about acting like a adult. You are utterly worthless, devoid of character, devoid of value.

Well, it did seem that way, ass. And no one called you gay here.


Like we could be so lucky.

Maybe she really is leaving politics, but is so utterly inarticulate that she can't even get the words "I am leaving politics" out of her mouth. However, I doubt it.

My biggest frustration is not with her. I mean, my goodness, I know probably fifty people just like her. Now, none of them should be President. My frustration is that deep down I think I understand her appeal. Now first of all, many, many people, namely white middle-aged men, are just so devoid of thought that they simply see this good-looking 44-year-old woman who can shoot a gun, wish they had her instead of their own wives, and think that by voting for her, it's like having her by proxy.

But more than that, I think there are a lot of people, like the fifty women in my circle who are just like her, who are just so beat down every day, because they are totally bewildered by the world around them and how fast it changes, how they not only don't have the skills to get a decent job in this economy, they don't even know what those skills might be, how their kids are ending up with values totally different from theirs, and they don't even know where it's coming from much less how to deal with it, and they see this lady, with no more knowledge or skills than they have, who has a family just as screwed up as theirs, yet who somehow became governor of a real actual U.S. state. When she gets on TV and can't put together a coherent sentence to answer a question, they see themselves in her because they didn't understand the question either.

And what that tells me is that a lot of conservative politics in 2009 is the identity politics of people whose parents and grandparents were on top, relatively speaking, but who themselves are being left behind. Conservatism is not about any kind of ideology of smaller government or lower spending or lower taxes or traditional values anymore. Lip service might be paid to those things, but they are just empty words and empty ideas serving as shibboleths. Sure, there are think tanks working out how to reconcile conservative principles with today's problems, but nobody is really paying any attention to the Newt Gingriches of the world. Being an educated conservative defeats the purpose, because the rank-and-file have no idea what the "educated" conservative is talking about, and if he's "educated" then he's probably not being left in the dust by the modern world like they are anyway.

And if that's what conservatism is now, then conservatism is dead. We can look over and over again at history to see what comes of a political climate where a large group of people who think they used to be on top find themselves being left behind culturally, economically, and politically. Right-wing politics ceases to be about any kind of ideological "conservatism" and becomes populist and authoritarian.

Much less did i wish death upon anyone, coward.

[Extra Stout]

On second thought, Palin's family issues do piss me off, but it has nothing to do with her. The same people who eat up every word she says would cast her off as a failure as a mother, and her daughter as a dirty, welfare-queen slut, and her husband's family as swarthy criminals if she were anything but a white evangelical. She's in "the club," so she gets all the understanding and compassion, people identify with her, etc. But if she were outside "the club," every one would get on their family-values judgmental high horse.

[Ignignokt]

Ignignokt, you have nothing to say and never have. You pretend not to understand what people write so you can erect strawmen. Some people are ignorant, but you just pretend to be ignorant because you have a gift for lies. And then, of course, whenever you get called on it, you revert to filth like a 16-year-old. You are completely worthless.

Please go walk in front of a bus or find some other way to kill yourself. It's the best thing you could possibly do for the world.


what a horrible human being, this is the type of dirty scum winehole defends.:lmao

[Ignignokt]

On second thought, Palin's family issues do piss me off, but it has nothing to do with her. The same people who eat up every word she says would cast her off as a failure as a mother, and her daughter as a dirty, welfare-queen slut, and her husband's family as swarthy criminals if she were anything but a white evangelical. She's in "the club," so she gets all the understanding and compassion, people identify with her, etc. But if she were outside "the club," every one would get on their family-values judgmental high horse.

Generalizing people eh?

And now you've shown the elitist prick you are.

And anyway, Sarah Palin is not responsible for her sister in law, don't know why you should be pissed of at the family for that. Most of us have atleast one messed up inlaw, doesn't mean we're are in anyway associated with them equally.

Thanks, for verifying my suspicions.:lol:lol

[Winehole23]

Against you? Gladly, if ES needed the help.

He doesn't, though.

[Ignignokt]

Against you? Gladly, if ES needed the help.

He doesn't, though.

:lmao, in denial.

[Winehole23]

Do you believe your own lies, or are you just putting up a brave front?

[Marcus Bryant]

With Palin, I think a larger question is whether or not she really buys into political fundamentalism. If anything, she likely subscribes personally to a more libertine view of the world than she lets on. Social conservatives and social liberals alike have assumed they know her social views. Social cons assume she is one of them on every issue, social liberals assume she's the supreme fundy priestess they've been fearing or what not.

Children in small town Alaska are likely to mature earlier than, say, in surburban Chicago. Alaska itself is a libertine place and not necessarily rural Alabama. I think the reaction to her daughter's pregnancy reflects on the fact that childhood in most of these United States has now extended well beyond the end of high school. It's a foreign concept today in the United States that a 17 year old could raise a child and have a normal life, because that would end the extended childhood from which all suburban blessings flow.

And yes, hypocrisy reigns on both sides of the political aisle on this matter. The notion that parents, in particular their working mothers, be held accountable for their child's behavior goes against the conventional feminist infused political leftism. And of course the suburban social conservatives who are otherwise content to condemn unwed mothers and their entire families magically found compassion for Palin and were not ready to condemn her to an eternity in Hell for her daughter not being pure until entering into Holy Matrimony.

I think one of Palin's major mistakes was allowing herself to be identified as a social conservative instead of embracing the natural libertarian bent of Alaska. But there I go projecting my own view on her.

[Marcus Bryant]

And oddly enough, Palin was the only major party candidate to have quoted Plato during the last federal election. But our definition of what it means to be "educated" these days naturally translates into which university did one attend. Are we to be comforted by the fact that the current Vice President has been a habitual plagiarist during his life, simply because he nonetheless attained one of those coveted trinkets of suburban life, a law degree?

[Ignignokt]

Do you believe your own lies, or are you just putting up a brave front?

i truly believe what i believe, i'm not however here claiming not being a rooting participant in this spat while my actions suggest otherwise.

[Ignignokt]

And oddly enough, Palin was the only major party candidate to have quoted Plato during the last federal election. But our definition of what it means to be "educated" these days naturally translates into which university did one attend. Are we to be comforted by the fact that the current Vice President has been a habitual plagiarist during his life, simply because he nonetheless attained one of those coveted trinkets of suburban life, a law degree?
:rolleyes

i hate agreeing with you.

[Marcus Bryant]

And Biden does not, despite his decades in the profession? If one needs another example of how worthless formal education is as a measuring stick these days, look no further than the 43rd POTUS and his two magical ivy league sheepskins. "holy cow" indeed.

[ElNono]

And Biden does not, despite his decades in the profession? If one needs another example of how worthless formal education is as a measuring stick these days, look no further than the 43rd POTUS and his two magical ivy league sheepskins. "holy cow" indeed.

At least Biden can lie to you by stringing coherent sentences together, something Palin has, so far, been unable to do.

[Ignignokt]

At least Biden can lie to you by stringing coherent sentences together, something Palin has, so far, been unable to do.

if only it were lying! :lol

ask obama's PR department on that one.

[Marcus Bryant]

At least Biden can lie to you by stringing coherent sentences together, something Palin has, so far, been unable to do.

Great. So we have a liar with polished speaking skills in high office.

By no means am I claiming that Palin is "smart," just that the rest of her contemporaries are overrated. Someone can speak fluidly and say absolutely nothing, or, as you postulate, intentionally mislead in a convincing manner.

[Extra Stout]

Biden is a blowhard.

[ElNono]

Great. So we have a liar with polished speaking skills in high office.

By no means am I claiming that Palin is "smart," just that the rest of her contemporaries are overrated. Someone can speak fluidly and say absolutely nothing, or, as you postulate, intentionally mislead in a convincing manner.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what we always had with contemporary politicians (and not so contemporary too).

[Marcus Bryant]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what we always had with contemporary politicians (and not so contemporary too).

Fair enough. Then someone who comes from outside of the political/business/social elite cadre of professional liars in this country and immediately they are run into the ground due to their lack of polish.

[Marcus Bryant]

obama and biden are both much smarter than you

Not at all, but as long as you want to buy into the myth of the greatness of our national leaders, feel free.



palin, i'm not so sure

Ah yes, we can't have no dumb broads running anything. No surprise Hillary flamed out, even in the primary of the enlightened party.

But I'd say Palin is clearly smarter than you.

[Marcus Bryant]

writing off obama's intelligence as an illusion wrought by his rhetorical skills is classic veiled racism

it's cool though brah

It's "racist" simply because of the color of his skin? That's a rather stupid assertion on your part. But not surprising.

[ElNono]

Fair enough. Then someone who comes from outside of the political/business/social elite cadre of professional liars in this country and immediately they are run into the ground due to their lack of polish.

What is not to be expected of that?
Politics is the sum of many, many attributes. Not all of them are forcefully tied to intelligence, honesty, altruism, etc as a good portion of us would like.
Things like good communication skills, presentation, charisma, resolve, etc are undeniably key in swaying the electorate's opinion.
For example, Palin has exceptional charisma and presentation, but her communication skills are incredibly bad. She could have the best intentions in the world, but if you can't communicate them, then you're toast.
Now, it's a lot easier to fix the communication skills than try to change yourself into a charismatic person (see McCain, John). So she definitely has that going for her. That said, she also needs to work more on policy (also doable) and to figure out how to get the party together, and not splintered. I don't think she figured that one out yet.

[Marcus Bryant]

so you admit that palin is smarter than you?

I admit she's smarter than you. But you can take heart in the fact that since she disagreed with Obama, she's clearly a racist as well.

[Marcus Bryant]

What is not to be expected of that?
Politics is the sum of many, many attributes. Not all of them are forcefully tied to intelligence, honesty, altruism, etc as a good portion of us would like.
Things like good communication skills, presentation, charisma, resolve, etc are undeniably key in swaying the electorate's opinion.
For example, Palin has exceptional charisma and presentation, but her communication skills are incredibly bad. She could have the best intentions in the world, but if you can't communicate them, then you're toast.
Now, it's a lot easier to fix the communication skills than try to change yourself into a charismatic person (see McCain, John). So she definitely has that going for her. That said, she also needs to work more on policy (also doable) and to figure out how to get the party together, and not splintered. I don't think she figured that one out yet.

Sure. But think about the implications of that for this nation in its public and private affairs. If all it takes is someone speaking fluidly to convince the people, then the future looks grim.

[JoeChalupa]

I too am perplexed by this move by Sarah Palin. I don't see how a "quiter" is going to now make a serious run at the presidency. Then again she may just know exactly what she is doing and believes she has the support to get it done. Only time will tell but if any other republican contenders take her seriously they will seek out her endorsement faster than Sanford can have news conferences.
I myself think it was a bad call if she wants to be president but a good call if she is out for the all mighty benjamins. She can make millions on a Palinista Tour.

[ElNono]

Sure. But think about the implications of that for this nation in its public and private affairs. If all it takes is someone speaking fluidly to convince the people, then the future looks grim.

I don't disagree with that assessment. However, there's always the possibility (and hope) that somebody with honesty, intelligence, altruism, etc as his/her strong traits come along which happens to also have great communications skills. I'm not holding my breath on that though.

[Marcus Bryant]

seriously

are you smarter than palin?

or is she smarter than you?

It's amusing that you believe this to be a salient point. For that reason alone I will let you continue to wonder.




palin never dismissed Barack obama (the President of the United States of America, by the way) as a slick teleprompter-reading nothingatall

True. Neither have I. But that line of attack was directed at the 40th POTUS, clearly because of the color of his skin.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't disagree with that assessment. However, there's always the possibility (and hope) that somebody with honesty, intelligence, altruism, etc as his/her strong traits come along which happens to also have great communications skills. I'm not holding my breath on that though.

Yes, and that is why such ability should hold little significance in our society.

[SnakeBoy]

palin is not smart. she makes a complete fool of herself every time she speaks. sarsly

The administration said today that they underestimated how bad the economy really was. And you want to criticize Palin's intelligence? sarsly

[SnakeBoy]

I too am perplexed by this move by Sarah Palin. I don't see how a "quiter" is going to now make a serious run at the presidency. Then again she may just know exactly what she is doing and believes she has the support to get it done.

She became governor by quitting and then taking on her own party by going around party politics and taking her case directly to the people. It's not suprising she would try it again.

I don't see any reason why she can't make it work if she becomes more fluent on national issues and can adjust her speaking style to appeal to more than alaskans. If she can't do that then she had no chance anyway so it really doesn't matter whether she resigns or not.

[Marcus Bryant]

why are you afraid to admit palin is smarter than you?

is it because she's a woman? because you realize she's a moron? or because you're completely delusional as to your own intellectual prowess?

I'm never afraid or delusional. Try again.



pretty sure that people called ronald reagan a smooth talker because he was a trained actor, not because he was white

Perhaps, because at least there would be a reasonable connection between speaking prowess and training as an actor.

[Marcus Bryant]

d. 4cc < all.

You betcha you thought you had a point.

[SnakeBoy]

pretty sure that people called ronald reagan a smooth talker because he was a trained actor

They didn't call him a smooth talker at the time. They called him stupid. Are you too young to remember that?

[balli]

I'd have thought relations would be amicable between Marcus Bryant and members of teh Mookie Crew? No? Politics forum sure does bring it out in people.

[Marcus Bryant]

that may be true

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that deep down you know palin is stupid and don't want to admit that you're stupider than a stupid person

Nanny nanny poo poo you stupid head.

[ElNono]

She became governor by quitting and then taking on her own party by going around party politics and taking her case directly to the people. It's not suprising she would try it again.

I don't see any reason why she can't make it work if she becomes more fluent on national issues and can adjust her speaking style to appeal to more than alaskans. If she can't do that then she had no chance anyway so it really doesn't matter whether she resigns or not.

She's such a maverick... :tu
So she did all this to... quit?

[Ignignokt]

She's such a maverick... :tu
So she did all this to... quit?

She's probably like "no matter what, nothing will be worse than having 10 + % unemployment in 012"

[ElNono]

She's probably like "no matter what, nothing will be worse than having 10 + % unemployment in 012"

The thing is, she now set herself up for the quick and easy retort: "When the economy was bad, you quit on the Alaskan people to make millions on book deals and public speeches". She just made it too easy.

[Wild Cobra]

holy cow

palin is not smart. she makes a complete fool of herself every time she speaks. sarsly
Intelligence has nothing to do with speaking skills. In fact, quite often, the smartest people around often have poor speaking skills.

[whottt]

She had successful careers in both politics and broadcast journalism, two fields where public speaking is arguably the #1 skill required. There's nothing wrong with her speaking ability, if anything she's well above average.

She's given hundreds of speeches and dozens of interviews that prove she is above average at it.


Failure to incorporate these factors in your analysis of her speaking ability doesn't mean she's a poor speaker, it simply means you are either unware of them, or ignoring them.


The same thing can be done with Obama...ignore Barracks's good speeches and interviews, take only his poor ones into account , then judge him as a poor speaker on the basis of only his poor performances.

[RandomGuy]

Seriously, this whole thing strained my schadenfreude muscle... I will have to rest it for a few days. :lmao

Must...

restrain...

unfettered...

glee...

[RandomGuy]

She had successful careers in both politics and broadcast journalism,


A sports reporter for KTUU-TV and KTVA-TV in Anchorage is a "successful career" in broadcast journalism? :lmao

That is the equivalant of saying that your local greasy spoon fry cook has a "successful career" in the culinary arts.

(wipes tears from eyes)

Thanks man. Please, oh please do not ever stop posting here.

[DarrinS]

Well, a very intelligent POTUS is currently dismantling our economy. Massive stimulus, govt takeover of financial institutions and car companies, cap and tax and trade, and now pushing socialized medicine. And coming soon to Washington, another stimulus. And unemployment will crack 10% soon.

Sweet.

[RandomGuy]

BTW, I have a solid respect for greasy spoon fry cooks. They rock.

[RandomGuy]

Well, a very intelligent POTUS is currently dismantling our economy. Massive stimulus, govt takeover of financial institutions and car companies, cap and tax and trade, and now pushing socialized medicine. And coming soon to Washington, another stimulus. And unemployment will crack 10% soon.

Sweet.


:repost:

[DarrinS]

BTW, I have a solid respect for greasy spoon fry cooks. They rock.


I have solid respect for community organizers.

[RandomGuy]

I have solid respect for community organizers.

Something we can agree on.

[DarrinS]

For the record, I think Obama is a lot smarter and a lot more polished than Sarah Palin.


BUT, I happen to agree with Palin's political views more than Obama's. I really thought Obama was going to go centrist. Boy was I wrong.


I also think Palin sees more eye-to-eye with your middle class American than does Obama. That is just my opinion.

[whottt]

A sports reporter for KTUU-TV and KTVA-TV in Anchorage is a "successful career" in broadcast journalism? :lmao

Yes.



That is the equivalant of saying that your local greasy spoon fry cook has a "successful career" in the culinary arts.


It's more like saying a degreed chef had a successful career at the restaurant he worked at, regardless of the cusine.



But you know why you are stupid?

A greasy spoon fry cook has had a successful career in the culinary arts..assuming he didn't get fired for being a shitty cook. You being too ignorant to know what the term you used actually means doesn't mean you are smart.

Much like a cook being a greasy spoon fry cook doesn't mean he was a shitty cook, or a bad one, or an unsuccessful one.







(wipes tears from eyes)

Thanks man. Please, oh please do not ever stop posting here.

Hey, being pompous doesn't mean you're smart, especially when you are incapable of seeing past your own bias.

You're a pretty stupid guy...you just don't realize it.

[DarrinS]

writing off obama's intelligence as an illusion wrought by his rhetorical skills is classic veiled racism

it's cool though brah


brah?


I agree with RandomGuy when it comes to the use of this word, written or spoken. It's like nails on a chalkboard.

[LnGrrrR]

Oh well, she's never run for President yet and she's run as many campaigns to be elected as Obama had prior to becoming President. Actually more I think.

The PG thing is still more impressive.

10X.

And getting elected President has nothing to do with leadership.

I'm pretty sure getting elected, and hiring people to help run that process, involves some sort of executive leadership.

[LnGrrrR]

The parties being destroyed is BS, I mean I've been rooting for one or the other to go down for years now...all that will happen is that a bunch of Republicans will become Democrats and the Democratic party will become more moderate not to mention dysfunctional.

I can't imagine the Democratic party getting MORE dysfunctional...:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Fair enough. Then someone who comes from outside of the political/business/social elite cadre of professional liars in this country and immediately they are run into the ground due to their lack of polish.

Is it any surprise though?

Politics is a specialized field nowadays, and in any specialized field, if you don't know the lingo, the trade jargon, then you won't get far.

If I was being interviewed by someone for a job, and I showed an inability to express myself properly, would I have a good chance of being hired? What if I mixed up my terms, or used them incorrectly or incoherently? I could probably expect to not be hired for the job.

An election is just a national, drawn-out job interview, isn't it?

[LnGrrrR]

Sure. But think about the implications of that for this nation in its public and private affairs. If all it takes is someone speaking fluidly to convince the people, then the future looks grim.

That's not ALL that's necessary, but I do think it's nearly always a prerequisite.

[whottt]

I'm pretty sure getting elected, and hiring people to help run that process, involves some sort of executive leadership.

Maybe you should have brought that up when they were saying Sarah Palin wasn't a leader.

Why didn't you?

[LnGrrrR]

Maybe you should have brought that up when they were saying Sarah Palin wasn't a leader.

Why didn't you?

Are we now retroactively holding ourselves to things we might have said, but didn't?

I think Sarah Palin had alot of charisma, but under the national spotlight, I don't think she held up well. She seemed out-of-sorts, and somewhat paranoid.

I also think that her communication of her belief in policies was limited as well.

And I'm sorry, but the "All of them" answer was just stupid. Just plain dumb.

[Marcus Bryant]

Is it any surprise though?

Politics is a specialized field nowadays, and in any specialized field, if you don't know the lingo, the trade jargon, then you won't get far.

If I was being interviewed by someone for a job, and I showed an inability to express myself properly, would I have a good chance of being hired? What if I mixed up my terms, or used them incorrectly or incoherently? I could probably expect to not be hired for the job.

I know plenty of people who can express themselves well, but know how to do little more than screw in a light bulb.




An election is just a national, drawn-out job interview, isn't it?

Oh, you still believe we have an actual choice in federal elections.

[whottt]

Are we now retroactively holding ourselves to things we might have said, but didn't?

Yes.

FWIW, I appreciate the asisist on proving why Palin can be considered a leader.

I don't necessarily agree with it real strongly, but it's a valid point with some merit.

I mean anyone in an executive position is going to appoint people, whether they are leader or not.




I think Sarah Palin had alot of charisma, but under the national spotlight, I don't think she held up well. She seemed out-of-sorts, and somewhat paranoid.

I also think that her communication of her belief in policies was limited as well.

And I'm sorry, but the "All of them" answer was just stupid. Just plain dumb.


Politicians talk so much you can easily isolate a single statement, or a few select statements and focus on them to justify a belief...


I can sit here and show you video of Obama claiming there are 58 states, totally unsolicited, in front a partisan crown, not just flubbing it, but deliberately, slowly and deliberately delivering that line, with thought behind it.....it is a totally inaccurate statement that could be corrected by children not even in school yet.


Conversely, Sarah Palin is glossed as an idiot for saying she can see Russia from her house when it is totally factually true statement not to mention relevant to how she has lived virtually her entire life with her neighbor being one of the most massive world powers, that most Americans consider a far away land.


What Barrack Obama said was legitimately stupid, what Sarah Palin said in that case was not. Nolr has she said anything remotely close to being that stupid at any point.


I can also show you her giving a speech, her first National acceptance speech ever, before one of the largest crowds to ever watch a National acceptance speech, and the general consensus was that she "hit it out of the park". Further proof it was extremely well delivered were the multiple millions in campaign contributions and the drastic swing in the polls in McCain's favor that immediately followed it.

[whottt]

BTW, I don't think Palin ever attempted to present herself as an expert on all world affairs and aspects of the Presidency, most Presidents that came out of Governorships, and Senators with only 4 years of experience aren't either...and if they are trying to present themselves as such they are most likely lying about it and their success at lying simply means they are a good liar...which is probably not the holy grail of political talents to those wanting some sort of honesty from their elected officials.

[LnGrrrR]

I know plenty of people who can express themselves well, but know how to do little more than screw in a light bulb.

Yes, but on the flipside, if a person can't explain how to install a light bulb, would you hire them to do that job if you didn't know they could do it already?


Oh, you still believe we have an actual choice in federal elections.

We have the same choices to hire someone that a job interviewer gets. We get to choose whoever is willing to show up and interview. :)

[DarrinS]

Why do we value intelligence over integrity these days?

I'd rather my children grow up to be good, decent people than just have some super high IQ. Ideally, they'd have both, but being good is more important than being smart.

Fuck, Ted Kaczynski was smart.

[LnGrrrR]

Politicians talk so much you can easily isolate a single statement, or a few select statements and focus on them to justify a belief...


I can sit here and show you video of Obama claiming there are 58 states, totally unsolicited, in front a partisan crown, not just flubbing it, but deliberately, slowly and deliberately delivering that line, with thought behind it.....it is a totally inaccurate statement that could be corrected by children not even in school yet.

I'm pretty sure that Obama made a mistake there, and he actually knew there were 50 states. :D

Is it unfair, in a sense, that Palin was slammed as being 'dumb' because of a few gaffes while speaking? You could look at it that way, yes.

But it's the same way that superstars are made or not during game-winning shots. If Kobe misses what could be a game-winning shot, does it make him less of a player? Of course not.

If he starts to miss too many though, then people will say he's not a winner, he can't make the clutch shot, etc etc.

I think that's what happened to Palin. She made one too many folksy comments, one too many misspoken lies, and then the 'buffoon' image was cemented.

[LnGrrrR]

BTW, I don't think Palin ever attempted to present herself as an expert on all world affairs and aspects of the Presidency, most Presidents that came out of Governorships, and Senators with only 4 years of experience aren't either...and if they are trying to present themselves as such they are most likely lying about it and their success at lying simply means they are a good liar...which is probably not the holy grail of political talents to those wanting some sort of honesty from their elected officials.

It's a double-edged sword. I want my politicians to be transparent, but I also realize they need to have the ability to wheel and deal. An honest politician, at higher levels, would not be a good one, sadly.

[whottt]

I'm pretty sure that Obama made a mistake there, and he actually knew there were 50 states. :D

Is it unfair, in a sense, that Palin was slammed as being 'dumb' because of a few gaffes while speaking? You could look at it that way, yes.

But it's the same way that superstars are made or not during game-winning shots. If Kobe misses what could be a game-winning shot, does it make him less of a player? Of course not.

If he starts to miss too many though, then people will say he's not a winner, he can't make the clutch shot, etc etc.

I think that's what happened to Palin. She made one too many folksy comments, one too many misspoken lies, and then the 'buffoon' image was cemented.


I don't really think speaking like a PHD is going to help you get votes...you want the majority of people to be able to understand you, not just the intellectuals.

That's probably why the guy that speaks like the average guy tends to do better than the intellectual.

Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan didn't speak like intellectuals...

I'd say the most intellectual President in my lifetime was Bush I and he got his ass kicked by a guy with folk appeal.

[Wild Cobra]

I just heard on the radio that Palin is leaving office because she cannot do her job, and it's unfair to the people of Alaska. She is having too many people trying to destroy her, and the time and money defending her is keeping her from being an effective Governor.

[Winehole23]

I just heard on the radio that Palin is leaving office because she cannot do her job, and it's unfair to the people of Alaska. She is having too many people trying to destroy her, and the time and money defending her is keeping her from being an effective Governor.Her legal bills are real, but this is an occupational hazard of higher office.

What really happened IMO is that she alienated both Republicans and Democrats in state government. Seeing that she had no chance to steer the legislative agenda, she *passed the ball*, rather than persevere as a very lame duck.

[jman3000]

It's what a good point guard does. At least she was able to beat the full court press. Beno would have turned it over and gave up a lay up.

[ElNono]

It's what a good point guard does. At least she was able to beat the full court press. Beno would have turned it over and gave up a lay up.

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

Her legal bills are real, but this is an occupational hazard of higher office.

What really happened IMO is that she alienated both Republicans and Democrats in state government. Seeing that she had no chance to steer the legislative agenda, she *passed the ball*, rather than persevere as a very lame duck.
Some do not constitute enough republicans to matter about. Listen to her resignation speech again. The latest announcement clarifying her inability to do her job is explained. Yes, it's an occupational hazard, but the opponents have been unscrupulously relentless. They keep pulling on threads, but nothing has unraveled yet except her ability to work effectively. Please show me any other politician who has had to endure as much.

G1tnUvtjaaY

[ElNono]

Please show me any other politician who has had to endure as much.

http://al3189.k12.sd.us/Year/bill-clinton-picture.jpg

[Winehole23]

http://americanpolinguist.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-clinton-picture.jpg

[jman3000]

creepy

[Winehole23]

I wasn't a fan, but that's where the *politics of personal destruction* really went off the rails IMO.

[Winehole23]

By now, that's an occupational hazard too. Too bad Sarah Palin couldn't stand the heat.

[DarrinS]

http://blogs.indystar.com/varvelblog/07062009.jpg

[Winehole23]

Maybe her adoring fans will pick up her legal tab, like happened with the Clintons.

[SnakeBoy]

I just heard on the radio that Palin is leaving office because she cannot do her job, and it's unfair to the people of Alaska. She is having too many people trying to destroy her, and the time and money defending her is keeping her from being an effective Governor.

Prior to the campaign she was very popular and effective because of her bipartisanship. Rumour is that alaskan democrats have been given their marching orders from the national level to oppose Palin on everything now so she can be called ineffective in the future. They have opposed her on everything since the campaign so I believe that rumour is true.



Her legal bills are real, but this is an occupational hazard of higher office.


They just filed another ethics suit yesterday. I don't think you can call the tactics being used against her normal. I would like to see some investigation on who is funding this legal campaign against her.

[Wild Cobra]

I should have specified at the governors level. President Clinton had a legal staff and funds available that a governor doesn't. Percentage wise, a huge difference, especially for a state like Alaska.

[DarrinS]

You tend to get hammered when you....

Well, you know what he did.


http://al3189.k12.sd.us/Year/bill-clinton-picture.jpg

[Sarah Palin]

You all are not listening to what I'm saying. I did what I felt was right for the state of Alaska.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/clintsquint/palindollar.gif

[Wild Cobra]

They just filed another ethics suit yesterday. I don't think you can call the tactics being used against her normal. I would like to see some investigation on who is funding this legal campaign against her.
Is that the one where they claim favorable action for a company, that is likely the only viable source in Wasilla, population under 6,000?

Their just pulling on another fruitless thread if you ask me.

[SnakeBoy]

Maybe I didn't hear the details. It had something to do with the sports complex built in Wasilla 7 or 8 years ago.

[Winehole23]

Prior to the campaign she was very popular and effective because of her bipartisanship. Rumour is that alaskan democrats have been given their marching orders from the national level to oppose Palin on everything now so she can be called ineffective in the future. They have opposed her on everything since the campaign so I believe that rumour is true.That sounds believable to me, but it's not too different from the opposition Obama faces now. What's an opposition party for?

Curiously, toward the beginning of her term, she had a bloc of Democrats working with her. I wonder what happened there.

BTW, from what I read in the ADN, Palin isn't very popular among establishment Republicans in Alaska anymore.


They just filed another ethics suit yesterday. I don't think you can call the tactics being used against her normal. I would like to see some investigation on who is funding this legal campaign against her.It doesn't take very much money to file a complaint, but a lot to defend against one. The frequency may be abnormal, but the tactic itself is part of the usual politcal wrangle. Maybe oppo research will find sinister private partners outside Alaska, but that's wherre the deep pockets for Palin's bills are too.

[SnakeBoy]

BTW, from what I read in the ADN, Palin isn't very popular among establishment Republicans in Alaska anymore.


She was never popular among establishment republicans. That's how she became so popular in Alaska. By taking on the corrupt state GOP and being all mavericky.

[Winehole23]

Well, she had some Dems on her side to start with and she lost them. Too bad.

[SnakeBoy]

Maybe oppo research will find sinister private partners outside Alaska, but that's wherre the deep pockets for Palin's bills are too.

Exactly. That's probably the driving reason behind this move of hers. She can raise whatever money she can without all of the ethics allegations. She has enormous fundraising potential. I don't believe for one second that she isn't doing this in preparation for 2012. Maybe it will work, maybe not. I think we have to wait until 2011 to know for sure.

[Wild Cobra]

Maybe I didn't hear the details. It had something to do with the sports complex built in Wasilla 7 or 8 years ago.
Yep, that's the one about who got the construction contract.

How many contractors near Wasilla do you think can handle such a task?

[Winehole23]

I think we have to wait until 2011 to know for sure.Her own party will tear her to pieces in the primary. She's done right now for 2012, IMO.

[ChumpDumper]

Are we now retroactively holding ourselves to things we might have said, but didn't?


Yes.This again? You think you might have learned your lesson when you had "dumb bitch" -- or rather the absence thereof -- shoved up your ass.

Your job is do defend your imaginary girlfriend against any attack, real or imagined or just fucking made up by yourself.

[SnakeBoy]

Her own party will tear her to pieces in the primary. She's done right now for 2012, IMO.

I don't think I agree with that. Some in the GOP will try but it will be the base that decides the primary and she had them at Hello. She can and probably will use the same tactic as Obama to go after the nomination, without as formidable opponent though.

Of course, this assumes that she can put together a coherent message and stick to it. If she continues to be biden-esque she may become a rich celebrity but never achieve her national ambitions. I don't see anyone nationally or any governors who can take it away from her unless she gives it away.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, that's the one about who got the construction contract.

How many contractors near Wasilla do you think can handle such a task?How many may have built her a house at the same time for a substantial discount?

This should be easy enough to clear up. I don't know why it would still have to be a question after all this time.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes.
I can sit here and show you video of Obama claiming there are 58 states, totally unsolicited, in front a partisan crown, not just flubbing it, but deliberately, slowly and deliberately delivering that line, with thought behind it.....it is a totally inaccurate statement that could be corrected by children not even in school yet.I would like to see that, because I only saw it in an interview in which he looked fairly exhausted. I'm certainly open to the possibility of his doing during a speech.



Conversely, Sarah Palin is glossed as an idiot for saying she can see Russia from her house when it is totally factually true statementOk, I don't ever think she actually said she could see it from her house -- and from what I see on the map, Wasilla is several hundred miles from any Russian territory.

So until you prove otherwise, I am accusing you of flat out lying about Palin.

[Wild Cobra]

How many may have built her a house at the same time for a substantial discount?

This should be easy enough to clear up. I don't know why it would still have to be a question after all this time.
I forgot about that one, but since nothing has occurred, and all other investigations have found no wrongdoing, I will out of had dismiss the thought. I will say she has done nothing wrong until someone can prove otherwise.

[Winehole23]

I will say she has done nothing wrong until someone can prove otherwise.You convict your political adversaries on mere suspicion. Why does Palin get a free ride?

[Wild Cobra]

You convict your political adversaries on mere suspicion. Why does Palin get a free ride?
It has to do with the statistics.

How many allegations have yet to be proved in the ethics investigations?

Zero!

[Yonivore]

So, how's everyone doing? I haven't read all five pages of this thread but, I'm going to comment anyway...

Libertarians aren't "perplexed" by Sarah.

The Governor's office, in Juneau, isn't the place from which you start kicking ass and taking names. It wouldn't be fair to the citizens of Alaska for Sarah Palin to completely upend the political establishment on their time or their dime.

Can't wait to see what happens next.

:corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn:

Later

[whottt]

This again? You think you might have learned your lesson when you had "dumb bitch" -- or rather the absence thereof -- shoved up your ass.


:lol carrying a bit of red ass over that last asskicking are we?

I never said I was certain, and you had previously anwered for her attackers including yourself among them.

I still haven't really checked to see if you said anything...I know you said something derogatory chump.







Your job is do defend your imaginary girlfriend against any attack, real or imagined or just fucking made up by yourself.

Oh yeah no one ever attacks her or her kids :lol

[whottt]

I would like to see that, because I only saw it in an interview in which he looked fairly exhausted. I'm certainly open to the possibility of his doing during a speech.


You can't fucking google it? Shit it's all over youtube.

If he gets that fucked up over getting exhausted holy shit for the world considering he's got the nuclear codes.

I attributed it to getting fucked up and thinking of Heinz 57.

It could be that since part of his elementary education was in Indonesia he just doesn't know it like we do.

How come Palin doesn't get to pull the exhaustion card? She was jetting all over the country probably like no other point in her career, she also had a newborn infant and several other kids...IOW, doing everything OBama was doing, plus being mother, including to an infant.

Obama gets the slack Palin doesn't...

Double
Standard



Ok, I don't ever think she actually said she could see it from her house -- and from what I see on the map, Wasilla is several hundred miles from any Russian territory.

So until you prove otherwise, I am accusing you of flat out lying about Palin.

:lmao you're right, what she said wasn't even that stupid, that was from a Tina Fey skit...what she said was even less stupid than that.

Thanksl for calling me a liar, I wasn't sure you completely felt the severity of the asskicing you got the other night and now I have no doubts about it :)

[whottt]

Her own party will tear her to pieces in the primary. She's done right now for 2012, IMO.

Her defenders aren't going to all of a sudden stop defending her just because the Republicans are attacking her...

[Winehole23]

Nor should they, over one very badly conducted press conference.

[Ignignokt]

Nor should Obama supporters, over one very badly conducted bailout, and economy.

[Wild Cobra]

Sarah Palin is glossed as an idiot for saying she can see Russia from her house when it is totally factually true statement not to mention relevant to how she has lived virtually her entire life with her neighbor being one of the most massive world powers, that most Americans consider a far away land.

Actually, she never said that. She said you could see Russia from Alaska. It was the Tina Fey skit that said "I can see Russia from my house."

Not to be picky, but those are the facts.

[Wild Cobra]

Her own party will tear her to pieces in the primary. She's done right now for 2012, IMO.
If they do, it will be them who lose. Too many conservatives love Palin, and republicans who attack her will lose that support.

[Yonivore]

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/407734.jpg
A picture of Russia taken from Alaska.

[PixelPusher]

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/407734.jpg
A picture of Russia taken from Alaska.

Looking at that picture = +1200 Foreign Policy XP

[Ignignokt]

Pixel Pusher's right. You can't claim to have foreign policy experience because you are neighbor to a once gigantic superpower. Even though you might have to dialogue with the foreign govt over mineral rights, Ocean zones, fish and wildlife, commerce, etc.

a picture say a thousand words...Yeah right, not when you can do cheap ripoff snarky comments like your heroes from the Daily Show.

[Wild Cobra]

Pixel Pusher's right. You can't claim to have foreign policy experience because you are neighbor to a once gigantic superpower. Even though you might have to dialogue with the foreign govt over mineral rights, Ocean zones, fish and wildlife, commerce, etc.

a picture say a thousand words...Yeah right, not when you can do cheap ripoff snarky comments like your heroes from the Daily Show.
What foreign policy experience did she say she had?

Can you quote it?

She went around that question when asked what officials she meet. At one point she said she didn't.

[Yonivore]

Pixel Pusher's right. You can't claim to have foreign policy experience because you are neighbor to a once gigantic superpower. Even though you might have to dialogue with the foreign govt over mineral rights, Ocean zones, fish and wildlife, commerce, etc.

a picture say a thousand words...Yeah right, not when you can do cheap ripoff snarky comments like your heroes from the Daily Show.
And, it wasn't just trade dialogues. Governor Palin was (is) regularly briefed on national security issues as relates to our shared border with Russia -- in her state.

When Russia chooses to flex its military muscle, usually they encroach/crowd U.S. territory in and around Alaska.

Oh yeah, let's not forget she also maintained a relationship with Canadian trade officials.

[Yonivore]

What foreign policy experience did she say she had?

Can you quote it?

She went around that question when asked what officials she meet. At one point she said she didn't.
Actually, if you're speaking about the Couric interview...what she said about her foreing relations experience was -- mostly -- edited out.

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, if you're speaking about the Couric interview...what she said about her foreing relations experience was -- mostly -- edited out.
I was thinking of the Gibson interview, and the question was foreign head of state. Sorry I stated that wrong:


GIBSON: Have you ever met a foreign head of state?

PALIN: There in the state of Alaska, our international trade activities bring in many leaders of other countries.

GIBSON: And all governors deal with trade delegations.

PALIN: Right.

GIBSON: Who act at the behest of their governments.

PALIN: Right, right.

GIBSON: I’m talking about somebody who’s a head of state, who can negotiate for that country. Ever met one?

PALIN: I have not and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you. But, Charlie, again, we’ve got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody’s big, fat resume maybe that shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they’ve had opportunities to meet heads of state … these last couple of weeks … it has been overwhelming to me that confirmation of the message that Americans are getting sick and tired of that self-dealing and kind of that closed door, good old boy network that has been the Washington elite.

[Ignignokt]

What foreign policy experience did she say she had?

Can you quote it?

She went around that question when asked what officials she meet. At one point she said she didn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nokTjEdaUGg

this is the video i guess you're referring to, you're right she didn't claim to have met foreign officials other than on trade missions, which i brought up under commerce. Now about her admitting that she didn't meet foreign officials i didn't see her say that.

[PixelPusher]

Governor Palin was (is) regularly briefed on national security issues as relates to our shared border with Russia -- in her state.

When Russia chooses to flex its military muscle, usually they encroach/crowd U.S. territory in and around Alaska.


Yeah. She sat there and listened as the the U.S. military politely explained what the U.S. military was or was not going to do.

Impressive.

[Yonivore]

Yeah. She sat there and listened as the the U.S. military politely explained what the U.S. military was or was not going to do.

Impressive.
Actually, most of her briefings were done by the head of the Alaska National Guard -- an employee.

[Yonivore]

Yeah. She sat there and listened as the the U.S. military politely explained what the U.S. military was or was not going to do.

Impressive.
So, what was Barack Obama's foreign policy experience prior to January 21, 2009?

[Wild Cobra]

Yeah. She sat there and listened as the the U.S. military politely explained what the U.S. military was or was not going to do.

Impressive.
Actually, one can get useful insight on trade missions.

Tell me again how Obama's experienve is any better?

[Winehole23]

You should have let it continue, PixelP. We had an unbroken benediction.

[Ignignokt]

Yeah. She sat there and listened as the the U.S. military politely explained what the U.S. military was or was not going to do.

Impressive.

Right, i guess the privelege of listening to and being entrusted with national security matters is akin to popping in your ipod and listening to Erasure.

[Ignignokt]

You should have let it continue, PixelP. We had an unbroken benediction.

Go team Go! Go team GO!

[PixelPusher]

Actually, most of her briefings were done by the head of the Alaska National Guard -- an employee.

So she politely listened to the head of the Alaska National Guard as he explained what the U.S. Military was or was not going to do. Well, that's changes everything.

[Wild Cobra]

Right, i guess the privelege of listening to and being entrusted with national security matters is akin to popping in your ipod and listening to Erasure.
Again, what was senator Obama's experience?

Why don't you bad talk him, Mr. I vote present, for lack or foreign policy experience?

[Yonivore]

Right, i guess the privelege of listening to and being entrusted with national security matters is akin to popping in your ipod and listening to Erasure.
More like, ...listening to yourself.

[Ignignokt]

You got to remember, before Obama was handed the nomination, he met with George Soros.

Foreign Policy Experience x 10000000000!

[Winehole23]

It might have been an impressive testimonial. Now it is destined for minor status; puny contention will soon intercede if it has not already.

[PixelPusher]

You got to remember, before Obama was handed the nomination, he met with George Soros.

Foreign Policy Experience x 10000000000!

Wow, that would've been a great comeback if Obama or his campaign ever laid claim to it in the first place.

[PixelPusher]

Again, what was senator Obama's experience?

Why don't you bad talk him, Mr. I vote present, for lack or foreign policy experience?

Because he never made any ridiculous claims about his FP chops.

[Wild Cobra]

Because he never made any ridiculous claims about his FP chops.
And what claims did Palin make that wasn't true?

Did you assume she meant more than she said? That's your bad!

[Winehole23]

And what claims did Palin make that wasn't true?The notorious Andrew Sullivan has a very long list (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/the-odd-lies-of-sarah-palin-a-roundup.html).

Much of it is spurious or strained, but I'd be frankly surprised if it is all wrong. The length of the list itself insinuates a problem of integrity in Palin, but the integrity of that list ultimately suffers at the hands of its own weak submissions. Much of the contention is semantic or otherwise doubtful IMO.

It is plausible to me that the habit of speaking ex tempore instead of from prepared materials, could lead a person to unfortunate errors of formulation, that in retrospect may appear contrived or disingenuous to a vigilant and uber-cynical press corps.

I recommend it only for bored partisans who want to be outraged (or collect ammo. Cuidado. There's more than a few defective rounds in the bandolero).

[PixelPusher]

And what claims did Palin make that wasn't true?

Did you assume she meant more than she said? That's your bad!

You and the Palin Cheer Squad miss the point. It's not about whether she scribbled her sig on a bunch of fishing treaties. It's about making that the basis for her FP cred as a Presidential candidate in the first place. If it were, 90% of every employee at the State Department, Pentagon, CIA ought to be "more qualified" to be President than any governor or congressmen running for it. This guy has a lot of Foreign Policy XP:

auQJVhNH99c

But he doesn't have the judgment and wisdom to be President.

[Marcus Bryant]

That reminds me when in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, it was reported that 'someone close to' former President Clinton lamented that he hadn't a national crisis on his watch to demonstrate his greatness.

Politics for partisanship sake tires very quickly and hollows out the soul. If you don't believe me, just think about those you know who were convinced that Bush was a Nazi, Clinton was a Commie, and so on.

[ElNono]

GIBSON: I’m talking about somebody who’s a head of state, who can negotiate for that country. Ever met one?

PALIN: I have not and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you. But, Charlie, again, we’ve got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody’s big, fat resume maybe that shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they’ve had opportunities to meet heads of state … these last couple of weeks … it has been overwhelming to me that confirmation of the message that Americans are getting sick and tired of that self-dealing and kind of that closed door, good old boy network that has been the Washington elite.

:lmao

You can't tell me that's not just pure comedic gold.
Thanks for the excerpt.

[Wild Cobra]

The notorious Andrew Sullivan has a very long list (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/the-odd-lies-of-sarah-palin-a-roundup.html).

Much of it is spurious or strained, but I'd be frankly surprised if it is all wrong. The length of the list itself insinuates a problem of integrity in Palin, but the integrity of that list ultimately suffers at the hands of its own weak submissions. Much of the contention is semantic or otherwise doubtful IMO.

It is plausible to me that the habit of speaking ex tempore instead of from prepared materials, could lead a person to unfortunate errors of formulation, that in retrospect may appear contrived or disingenuous to a vigilant and uber-cynical press corps.

I recommend it only for bored partisans who want to be outraged (or collect ammo. Cuidado. There's more than a few defective rounds in the bandolero).
Without going into the list, I remember debating and looking some of those things up in the past. I do know some of his conclusions are taking things out of context. Some on the ethics complaints were from that list, and she was 100% exonerated of all charges.

Simply put, I don't believe Sullivan. Can you show me cut and dry facts, rather than partial quotes in someone's blog?

As for wiki? Who writes that stuff? I use wiki myself for many things, but it can have misinformation, and very often does when things are political.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

You can't tell me that's not just pure comedic gold.
Thanks for the excerpt.
You never read that before?

Wow... are you ever out of touch.

You know, she's referring to the people who make politics a life. That they become out of touch with the people.

[ElNono]

You never read that before?

Wow... are you ever out of touch.

You know, she's referring to the people who make politics a life. That they become out of touch with the people.

Not the transcript. I'm pretty sure I saw the interview live, but I forgot about it until now.

[Wild Cobra]

Not the transcript. I'm pretty sure I saw the interview live, but I forgot about it until now.
Well, part of the transcript I quoted was edited out. I did however, recently, in a different thread, post the entire transcript.

Or was it early in this one?

[Wild Cobra]

Not the transcript. I'm pretty sure I saw the interview live, but I forgot about it until now.
Here's that posting (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3486189&postcount=179), in it's entirety:



Pretty much all TV content is edited, WC.
I know that. The problem is, the media did negative editing for McCain/Palin and positive editing for Obama/Biden. Most people never knew the difference. I've been carefully comparing the available transcript of the Charlie Gibson interview. The red bold type in the transcript is the conversation that is edited out. This is from the ABC site at that! Here is the aired interview and transcript (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=5782924&page=1):

3ALsjhDDdaA


GIBSON: Governor, let me start by asking you a question that I asked John McCain about you, and it is really the central question. Can you look the country in the eye and say "I have the experience and I have the ability to be not just vice president, but perhaps president of the United States of America?"

PALIN: I do, Charlie, and on January 20, when John McCain and I are sworn in, if we are so privileged to be elected to serve this country, will be ready. I'm ready.

[missing text: When McCain asked you to take the #2 spot...]

GIBSON: And you didn't say to yourself, "Am I experienced enough? Am I ready? Do I know enough about international affairs? Do I -- will I feel comfortable enough on the national stage to do this?"

PALIN: I didn't hesitate, no.

GIBSON: Didn't that take some hubris?

PALIN: I -- I answered him yes because I have the confidence in that readiness and knowing that you can't blink, you have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on, reform of this country and victory in the war, you can't blink.

So I didn't blink then even when asked to run as his running mate.

GIBSON: But this is not just reforming a government. This is also running a government on the huge international stage in a very dangerous world. When I asked John McCain about your national security credentials, he cited the fact that you have commanded the Alaskan National Guard and that Alaska is close to Russia. Are those sufficient credentials?

PALIN: But it is about reform of government and it's about putting government back on the side of the people, and that has much to do with foreign policy and national security issues Let me speak specifically about a credential that I do bring to this table, Charlie, and that's with the energy independence that I've been working on for these years as the governor of this state that produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy, that I worked on as chairman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, overseeing the oil and gas development in our state to produce more for the United States.

GIBSON: I know. I'm just saying that national security is a whole lot more than energy.

PALIN: It is, but I want you to not lose sight of the fact that energy is a foundation of national security. It's that important. It's that significant.

GIBSON: Did you ever travel outside the country prior to your trip to Kuwait and Germany last year?

PALIN: Canada, Mexico, and then, yes, that trip, that was the trip of a lifetime to visit our troops in Kuwait and stop and visit our injured soldiers in Germany. That was the trip of a lifetime and it changed my life.

GIBSON: Have you ever met a foreign head of state?

PALIN: There in the state of Alaska, our international trade activities bring in many leaders of other countries.

GIBSON: And all governors deal with trade delegations.

PALIN: Right.

GIBSON: Who act at the behest of their governments.

PALIN: Right, right.

GIBSON: I'm talking about somebody who's a head of state, who can negotiate for that country. Ever met one?

PALIN: I have not and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you. But, Charlie, again, we've got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody's big, fat resume maybe that shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they've had opportunities to meet heads of state ... these last couple of weeks ... it has been overwhelming to me that confirmation of the message that Americans are getting sick and tired of that self-dealing and kind of that closed door, good old boy network that has been the Washington elite.

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God." Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words.

But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that's a repeat in my comments, was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side.

That's what that comment was all about, Charlie. And I do believe, though, that this war against extreme Islamic terrorists is the right thing. It's an unfortunate thing, because war is hell and I hate war, and, Charlie, today is the day that I send my first born, my son, my teenage son overseas with his Stryker brigade, 4,000 other wonderful American men and women, to fight for our country, for democracy, for our freedoms.

Charlie, those are freedoms that too many of us just take for granted. I hate war and I want to see war ended. We end war when we see victory, and we do see victory in sight in Iraq.

GIBSON: I take your point about Lincoln's words, but you went on and said, "There is a plan and it is God's plan."

PALIN: I believe that there is a plan for this world and that plan for this world is for good. I believe that there is great hope and great potential for every country to be able to live and be protected with inalienable rights that I believe are God-given, Charlie, and I believe that those are the rights to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That, in my world view, is a grand -- the grand plan.

GIBSON: But then are you sending your son on a task that is from God?

PALIN: I don't know if the task is from God, Charlie. What I know is that my son has made a decision. I am so proud of his independent and strong decision he has made, what he decided to do and serving for the right reasons and serving something greater than himself and not choosing a real easy path where he could be more comfortable and certainly safer.

GIBSON: Let me ask you about some specific national security situations.

PALIN: Sure.

GIBSON: Let's start, because we are near Russia, let's start with Russia and Georgia.

The administration has said we've got to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia. Do you believe the United States should try to restore Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

PALIN: First off, we're going to continue good relations with Saakashvili there. I was able to speak with him the other day and giving him my commitment, as John McCain's running mate, that we will be committed to Georgia. And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable and we have to keep...

GIBSON: You believe unprovoked.

PALIN: I do believe unprovoked and we have got to keep our eyes on Russia, under the leadership there. I think it was unfortunate. That manifestation that we saw with that invasion of Georgia shows us some steps backwards that Russia has recently taken away from the race toward a more democratic nation with democratic ideals.That's why we have to keep an eye on Russia.

And, Charlie, you're in Alaska. We have that very narrow maritime border between the United States, and the 49th state, Alaska, and Russia. They are our next door neighbors.We need to have a good relationship with them. They're very, very important to us and they are our next door neighbor.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

We cannot repeat the Cold War. We are thankful that, under Reagan, we won the Cold War, without a shot fired, also. We've learned lessons from that in our relationship with Russia, previously the Soviet Union.

We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

GIBSON: Would you favor putting Georgia and Ukraine in NATO?

PALIN: Ukraine, definitely, yes. Yes, and Georgia.

GIBSON: Because Putin has said he would not tolerate NATO incursion into the Caucasus.

PALIN: Well, you know, the Rose Revolution, the Orange Revolution, those actions have showed us that those democratic nations, I believe, deserve to be in NATO.

Putin thinks otherwise. Obviously, he thinks otherwise, but...

GIBSON: And under the NATO treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?

PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.

But NATO, I think, should include Ukraine, definitely, at this point and I think that we need to -- especially with new leadership coming in on January 20, being sworn on, on either ticket, we have got to make sure that we strengthen our allies, our ties with each one of those NATO members.

We have got to make sure that that is the group that can be counted upon to defend one another in a very dangerous world today.

GIBSON: And you think it would be worth it to the United States, Georgia is worth it to the United States to go to war if Russia were to invade.

PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries.

And we have got to be vigilant. We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia. The support that we can show is economic sanctions perhaps against Russia, if this is what it leads to.

It doesn't have to lead to war and it doesn't have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries.

His mission, if it is to control energy supplies, also, coming from and through Russia, that's a dangerous position for our world to be in, if we were to allow that to happen.

GIBSON: Let me turn to Iran. Do you consider a nuclear Iran to be an existential threat to Israel?

PALIN: I believe that under the leadership of Ahmadinejad, nuclear weapons in the hands of his government are extremely dangerous to everyone on this globe, yes.

GIBSON: So what should we do about a nuclear Iran? John McCain said the only thing worse than a war with Iran would be a nuclear Iran. John Abizaid said we may have to live with a nuclear Iran. Who's right?

PALIN: No, no. I agree with John McCain that nuclear weapons in the hands of those who would seek to destroy our allies, in this case, we're talking about Israel, we're talking about Ahmadinejad's comment about Israel being the "stinking corpse, should be wiped off the face of the earth," that's atrocious. That's unacceptable.

GIBSON: So what do you do about a nuclear Iran?

PALIN: We have got to make sure that these weapons of mass destruction, that nuclear weapons are not given to those hands of Ahmadinejad, not that he would use them, but that he would allow terrorists to be able to use them. So we have got to put the pressure on Iran and we have got to count on our allies to help us, diplomatic pressure.

GIBSON: But, Governor, we've threatened greater sanctions against Iran for a long time. It hasn't done any good. It hasn't stemmed their nuclear program.

PALIN: We need to pursue those and we need to implement those. We cannot back off. We cannot just concede that, oh, gee, maybe they're going to have nuclear weapons, what can we do about it. No way, not Americans. We do not have to stand for that.

GIBSON: What if Israel decided it felt threatened and needed to take out the Iranian nuclear facilities?

PALIN: Well, first, we are friends with Israel and I don't think that we should second guess the measures that Israel has to take to defend themselves and for their security.

GIBSON: So if we wouldn't second guess it and they decided they needed to do it because Iran was an existential threat, we would cooperative or agree with that.

PALIN: I don't think we can second guess what Israel has to do to secure its nation.

GIBSON: So if it felt necessary, if it felt the need to defend itself by taking out Iranian nuclear facilities, that would be all right.

PALIN: We cannot second guess the steps that Israel has to take to defend itself.

GIBSON: We talk on the anniversary of 9/11. Why do you think those hijackers attacked? Why did they want to hurt us?

PALIN: You know, there is a very small percentage of Islamic believers who are extreme and they are violent and they do not believe in American ideals, and they attacked us and now we are at a point here seven years later, on the anniversary, in this post-9/11 world, where we're able to commit to never again. They see that the only option for them is to become a suicide bomber, to get caught up in this evil, in this terror. They need to be provided the hope that all Americans have instilled in us, because we're a democratic, we are a free, and we are a free-thinking society.

GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush -- well, what do you -- what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view.

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that's the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: I agree that a president's job, when they swear in their oath to uphold our Constitution, their top priority is to defend the United States of America.

I know that John McCain will do that and I, as his vice president, families we are blessed with that vote of the American people and are elected to serve and are sworn in on January 20, that will be our top priority is to defend the American people.

GIBSON: Do we have a right to anticipatory self-defense? Do we have a right to make a preemptive strike again another country if we feel that country might strike us?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country. In fact, the president has the obligation, the duty to defend.

GIBSON: Do we have the right to be making cross-border attacks into Pakistan from Afghanistan, with or without the approval of the Pakistani government?

PALIN: Now, as for our right to invade, we're going to work with these countries, building new relationships, working with existing allies, but forging new, also, in order to, Charlie, get to a point in this world where war is not going to be a first option. In fact, war has got to be, a military strike, a last option.

GIBSON: But, Governor, I'm asking you: We have the right, in your mind, to go across the border with or without the approval of the Pakistani government.

PALIN: In order to stop Islamic extremists, those terrorists who would seek to destroy America and our allies, we must do whatever it takes and we must not blink, Charlie, in making those tough decisions of where we go and even who we target.

GIBSON: And let me finish with this. I got lost in a blizzard of words there. Is that a yes? That you think we have the right to go across the border with or without the approval of the Pakistani government, to go after terrorists who are in the Waziristan area?

PALIN: I believe that America has to exercise all options in order to stop the terrorists who are hell bent on destroying America and our allies. We have got to have all options out there on the table.

[Winehole23]

Without going into the list, I remember debating and looking some of those things up in the past. I do know some of his conclusions are taking things out of context. Some on the ethics complaints were from that list, and she was 100% exonerated of all charges.So far. My understanding is there are two complaints outstanding. Surely you did not think her legal trouble was at an end? That would greatly discommode your legal harassment thesis.


Simply put, I don't believe Sullivan. Can you show me cut and dry facts, rather than partial quotes in someone's blog?Neither do I. Didn't you notice my takedown of Sullivan's list, or did you just go to the link and respond to that, instead of the poster?

[SnakeBoy]

So far. My understanding is there are two complaints outstanding. Surely you did not think her legal trouble was at an end? That would greatly discommode your legal harassment thesis.


I just saw an interview with her lawyer on Greta's show. He said there have been 15 ethics suits filed and all have been dismissed. He mentioned the most recent one but I'm not sure if was including that. Palin's cost $500k, alaska's cost $2 million. One of the dismissed suits was because Palin gave an interview to Greta in the governors office and claimed that she therefore used government resources for a partisan event. He also said that the most recent one was filed by the same person who filed some of the others. Also that many of them have been filed using pseudonym's and so far they have traced one of them back to an official blogger for the national democratic party. The ironic thing that he pointed out is that they are able to use this tactic because of a loophole in the ethics reform bill that Palin pushed through the legislature.

[Winehole23]

The ironic thing that he pointed out is that they are able to use this tactic because of a loophole in the ethics reform bill that Palin pushed through the legislature.Let's not forget that Sarah Palin investigated herself to moot another inquiry. Wonder what the bill was for that?

[SnakeBoy]

What was that one about?

[Winehole23]

alaska's cost $2 million.ADN reports (http://www.adn.com/palin/story/850854.html) $296,000 thru July 1, 2009, with two thirds consumed by *Troopergate*.

[Winehole23]

What was that one about?I don't clearly recall. It may have been related to Dude-gate.



Edit: it was Troopergate.

[Winehole23]

Palin reversed an earlier pledge and refused to cooperate with the Legislature's investigation, calling it politically biased. In an unusual twist, she filed the ethics complaint against herself (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/555288.html) before the board, saying she hoped to "clear the air" by an inquiry through proper channels. She asked the board to decide if she broke ethics laws or acted improperly in dismissing Monegan or in dealing with Wooten

[SnakeBoy]

Ah troopergate. I was under the impression that the 15 complaints were post election and did not include troopergate.

[Winehole23]

The actual figure was, uh, much smaller wouldn't you say?

[Winehole23]

And 2/3 of the cost to Alaska was an investigation Palin initiated against herself.

[ElNono]

And 2/3 of the cost to Alaska was an investigation Palin initiated against herself.

Would you please stop confusing them with actual facts? Thank you.

[Winehole23]

Who knows, maybe the ADN is low-balling it.

[Winehole23]

Underestimating the cost by a factor of ten would be very, very naughty...

[SnakeBoy]

The actual figure was, uh, much smaller wouldn't you say?

The figure from the personnel board is much smaller I would say. Whether or not that is the actual figure I don't know. I'd have to see more details on the how they and the Palin camp are coming up with their numbers.


Would you please stop confusing them with actual facts? Thank you.

I just relayed what I heard Palin's attorney say. Maybe your the one who is confused...I don't really care much about this topic. If Palin makes a run in 2011 I'll judge her then. Why she resigned, what she said to Couric/Gibson etc...who gives a shit. It will be old news by then.

[Wild Cobra]

Death by a Thousand FOIAs (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124700261179807839.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

[Winehole23]

The figure from the personnel board is much smaller I would say. Whether or not that is the actual figure I don't know. I'd have to see more details on the how they and the Palin camp are coming up with their numbers.If Palin's attorney quotes a figure very greatly (almost 10x more) at variance with the official report of Alaska's personnel board, so much the worse for the credibility of her counsel, unless he is willing to release another tally. Has he? Sounds like maybe he told a tall tale, if you remember aright, SnakeBoy.


I just relayed what I heard Palin's attorney say. Maybe your the one who is confused...I don't really care much about this topic. Fair enough. I can let this one go.

gnite

[Winehole23]

Death by a Thousand FOIAs (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124700261179807839.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)I see no figure hostile to my brief there.


Since Ms. Palin returned to Alaska after the 2008 campaign, some 150 FOIA requests have been filed and her office has been targeted for investigation by everyone from the FBI to the Alaska legislature. Most have centered on Ms. Palin's use of government resources, and to date have turned up little save for a few state trips that she agreed to reimburse the state for because her children had accompanied her. In the process, though, she accumulated $500,000 in legal fees in just the last nine months, and knew the bill would grow ever larger in the future.

[Wild Cobra]

ADN reports (http://www.adn.com/palin/story/850854.html) $296,000 thru July 1, 2009, with two thirds consumed by *Troopergate*.


And 2/3 of the cost to Alaska was an investigation Palin initiated against herself.

You are focusing only on the ethics complaints. The bulk of the cost is because of the FOIA requests.

Palin returns to work, defends decision to resign, says Alaska better off with 2nd-in-command (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/nation/ap/50079392.html)
In an interview with The Associated Press, Palin defended her decision to step down after a year in which she has been bombarded with a series of ethics complaints and publics records requests that have cost the state nearly $2 million to investigate, according to a tally provided by the governor's office Tuesday.
According to the cost breakdown from the governor's office, the state Department of Law incurred expenses exceeding $116,000 investigating Palin's firing of her public safety commissioner in a legislative probe that came to be dubbed Troopergate.looks like $116 k is less than half... I wonder what accounts for the difference. Anchorage Daily News reports it at $187,797. Could it be FOIAs attached to that as well?

[Winehole23]

Hm, there may be something to that. It sounds plausible to me. The Palin tally counts a wider variety of costs.

Sorry I busted your balls on the figure, SnakeBoy. Yours may be legit.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll read the rest later, but I enjoyed watching whottt get owned by Wild Cobra of all people.

You can't put a price on that entertainment.

:tu

[ElNono]

Wasn't her that push through the state ethics law that allows FOIA requests to be filed by anybody?
Even if she didn't, the system is obviously flawed if, as she claims, it brought down the state government to a halt and costs inordinate amounts of taxpayer money to keep up with it.
She most likely didn't have the political support to do anything about it.

[01.20.09]

She's all about the money and I don't blame her but that is her #1 reason and it is obvious. I'd say 90% of us would do the same thing and go for the green.

[LnGrrrR]

Here's what I don't get...

Why should a person in public office have to pay for her own defense when it's a matter of corruption? That's a uniquely governmental type charge, usually. You'd think that higher level offices like governors would have a defense team provided or something like that. At the least, she could alays go with a public defender, right?

[ElNono]

Here's what I don't get...

Why should a person in public office have to pay for her own defense when it's a matter of corruption? That's a uniquely governmental type charge, usually. You'd think that higher level offices like governors would have a defense team provided or something like that. At the least, she could alays go with a public defender, right?

She's a maverick...

[NameDropper]

She's going to be rich!!

[Winehole23]

Here's what I don't get...

Why should a person in public office have to pay for her own defense when it's a matter of corruption? That's a uniquely governmental type charge, usually. You'd think that higher level offices like governors would have a defense team provided or something like that. At the least, she could always go with a public defender, right?Uh, that would probably be a bad move.

Honestly, I don't know what's customary with the legal bills of US governors. I can see how states wouldn't want to pay for ethics/corruption defense, in case the defendant loses.

Relatedly: should states really pay for the defense of (possibly) corrupt pols?

[LnGrrrR]

Uh, that would probably be a bad move.

Honestly, I don't know what's customary with the legal bills of US governors. I can see how states wouldn't want to pay for ethics/corruption defense, in case the defendant loses.

Relatedly: should states really pay for the defense of (possibly) corrupt pols?

That's what I'm wondering. Being in the military my entire adult life, I don't get to see things often from a 'civilian' side. In the military, if we're charged with something, we have an ADC, Area Defense Counsel, that works for us. (Kinda like a public defender with knowledge of military procedures/rules/regulations.)

Couldn't states charge the defendant with the lawyer bills if found guilty?

I'm just saying, it DOES seem unfair that many different people could pool resources to hit a single person up with numerous charges. You would think that if the charges were frivolous, the judge would throw them out. I'm just worried about a possible abuse of the legal system.

Also though, I think it's somewhat tacky to be complaining about lawyer's bills when you could technically get a lawyer free, though perhaps a sucky one. I've never been involved in litigation so I'm not aware of the difference in level/degree of skill between paid/unpaid.

[ElNono]

Relatedly: should states really pay for the defense of (possibly) corrupt pols?

Well, if they're corrupt it's going to be tax money no matter what...

[Winehole23]

I've never been involved in litigation so I'm not aware of the difference in level/degree of skill between paid/unpaid.It's a vendible system of justice, so it's best to avoid the free representation if at all possible. At any rate, I think one needs to be able show hardship to get it.


I'm just saying, it DOES seem unfair that many different people could pool resources to hit a single person up with numerous charges. You would think that if the charges were frivolous, the judge would throw them out.I'm pretty sure Palin has been dealing with state ethics panels and such. Pre-trial administrative determinations. So far nothing has gone to trial. According to the Juneau Empire, some of the claims were dismissed peremptorily, for not putting forth any clear violation.


Several of the complaints were resolved (http://juneauempire.com/stories/070109/sta_457304159.shtml) with little expense. Many failed to state an allegation of law violation, and were dismissed without further investigation.Palin claims the Branchflower report (http://community.adn.com/adn/node/132565) exonerates her because it recommended no action against her, but finding one says this:




For the reasons explained in section IV of this report, I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39/52/110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act. Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) provides
The legislature reaffirms that every public officer holds office as a public trust, and any effort to benefit a personal or financial interest through official action is a violation of that trust.And let's not forget:


Some cases have been resolved with repayment (http://juneauempire.com/stories/070109/sta_457304159.shtml) of possibly improper expenses and other measures.

[Sarah Palin]

She's going to be rich!!


You betcha!!!

[Winehole23]

Well, if they're corrupt it's going to be tax money no matter what...The presumption of innocence weighs heavy, as it should.

[Richard Cranium]

She knows where the money is.

[Winehole23]

The fact that "many" investigations were peremptorily dismissed deflates the myth that officialdom in Alaska has been entertaining a boatload of frivolous complaints against Palin.

[Winehole23]

As do cash settlements concurrent with official probes, for that matter.

[Winehole23]

Rejoinder, SnakeBoy?

[jman3000]

There might be an ethics complaint in the form of her using state money to further her national political career by way of speaking appearances and the like. The other stuff... I'm not so sure of, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

[Winehole23]

There might be an ethics complaint in the form of her using state money to further her national political career by way of speaking appearances and the like.This is what cynics (realists, some prefer) have said, me included. Palin needed to quit to cash in.

[jman3000]

Which I see as the most likely of all the scenarios.

It's pretty obvious she could have raised 10 million for a defense fund with a wink of her eye.

[Winehole23]

A war bank, why not?

[jman3000]

Putin is known to rear his head over Alaskan airspace. It makes sense.

[Winehole23]

I was thinking more for media kerfuffles and fundies, but there you go.

[jman3000]

As was I. Your "war bank" comment cast me adrift.

[Winehole23]

Clumsy, I agree.

[Winehole23]

War chest is the conventional usage.

[Winehole23]

The State of Alaska, to its credit, did little more more than slap Palin's wrist during the campaign. It returned the reports without any recommendation to file charges on Palin in 100% of the cases so far.

[SnakeBoy]

Rejoinder, SnakeBoy?

Not really. You're bringing up the Branchflower report which was clearly politically driven. Wasn't she exonerated of all ethics charges in regards to troopergate the day of the election?

[Winehole23]

Is there something wrong with examining the document, or do you just dismiss it out of hand?

[Winehole23]

Palin, per contra, does not.

[Winehole23]

Ms. Palin relies on it as an *exoneration.*

[Winehole23]

What political bias does bringing it up irresistibly reveal, since Palin herself falls back on it?

[Winehole23]

Wasn't she exonerated of all ethics charges in regards to troopergate the day of the election? I was alluding to that, yes.

100%, so far.