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Nbadan
04-05-2005, 12:55 AM
An Academic Question
By PAUL KRUGMAN


It's a fact, documented by two recent studies, that registered Republicans and self-proclaimed conservatives make up only a small minority of professors at elite universities. But what should we conclude from that?

Conservatives see it as compelling evidence of liberal bias in university hiring and promotion. And they say that new "academic freedom" laws will simply mitigate the effects of that bias, promoting a diversity of views. But a closer look both at the universities and at the motives of those who would police them suggests a quite different story.

Claims that liberal bias keeps conservatives off college faculties almost always focus on the humanities and social sciences, where judgments about what constitutes good scholarship can seem subjective to an outsider. But studies that find registered Republicans in the minority at elite universities show that Republicans are almost as rare in hard sciences like physics and in engineering departments as in softer fields. Why?

One answer is self-selection - the same sort of self-selection that leads Republicans to outnumber Democrats four to one in the military. The sort of person who prefers an academic career to the private sector is likely to be somewhat more liberal than average, even in engineering.

But there's also, crucially, a values issue. In the 1970's, even Democrats like Daniel Patrick Moynihan conceded that the Republican Party was the "party of ideas." Today, even Republicans like Representative Chris Shays concede that it has become the "party of theocracy."

Consider the statements of Dennis Baxley, a Florida legislator who has sponsored a bill that - like similar bills introduced in almost a dozen states - would give students who think that their conservative views aren't respected the right to sue their professors. Mr. Baxley says that he is taking on "leftists" struggling against "mainstream society," professors who act as "dictators" and turn the classroom into a "totalitarian niche." His prime example of academic totalitarianism? When professors say that evolution is a fact.

In its April Fools' Day issue, Scientific American published a spoof editorial in which it apologized for endorsing the theory of evolution just because it's "the unifying concept for all of biology and one of the greatest scientific ideas of all time," saying that "as editors, we had no business being persuaded by mountains of evidence." And it conceded that it had succumbed "to the easy mistake of thinking that scientists understand their fields better than, say, U.S. senators or best-selling novelists do."

The editorial was titled "O.K., We Give Up." But it could just as well have been called "Why So Few Scientists Are Republicans These Days." Thirty years ago, attacks on science came mostly from the left; these days, they come overwhelmingly from the right, and have the backing of leading Republicans.

Scientific American may think that evolution is supported by mountains of evidence, but President Bush declares that "the jury is still out." Senator James Inhofe dismisses the vast body of research supporting the scientific consensus on climate change as a "gigantic hoax." And conservative pundits like George Will write approvingly about Michael Crichton's anti-environmentalist fantasies.

Think of the message this sends: today's Republican Party - increasingly dominated by people who believe truth should be determined by revelation, not research - doesn't respect science, or scholarship in general. It shouldn't be surprising that scholars have returned the favor by losing respect for the Republican Party.

Conservatives should be worried by the alienation of the universities; they should at least wonder if some of the fault lies not in the professors, but in themselves. Instead, they're seeking a Lysenkoist solution that would have politics determine courses' content.

And it wouldn't just be a matter of demanding that historians play down the role of slavery in early America, or that economists give the macroeconomic theories of Friedrich Hayek as much respect as those of John Maynard Keynes. Soon, biology professors who don't give creationism equal time with evolution and geology professors who dismiss the view that the Earth is only 6,000 years old might face lawsuits.

If it got that far, universities would probably find ways to cope - by, say, requiring that all entering students sign waivers. But political pressure will nonetheless have a chilling effect on scholarship. And that, of course, is its purpose.

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/opinion/05krugman.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=)

"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans ... unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing."

- Karl Rove

mookie2001
04-05-2005, 03:27 AM
i know the answer dan
we both do
but the discussion will only lead to me being labeled elitist
or america hating

desflood
04-05-2005, 07:40 AM
What this tells me is that conservatives tend to be more blue-collar people, not afraid to do the hard work. Liberals are the white-collar class. They tend to think they are "above" such menial labor. That's what I can't help but think every time I read a report like this.

Extra Stout
04-05-2005, 09:06 AM
What this tells me is that conservatives tend to be more blue-collar people, not afraid to do the hard work. Liberals are the white-collar class. They tend to think they are "above" such menial labor. That's what I can't help but think every time I read a report like this.Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

There is a liberal misconception that the most brilliant people end up in academia.

Clandestino
04-05-2005, 09:14 AM
yeah, i think the people who can actually put what they learn in school to practice are out doing it.. the rest are just teaching it...

Guru of Nothing
04-05-2005, 09:56 AM
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.



And those who can't teach become consultants and auditors.

2centsworth
04-05-2005, 11:23 AM
And those who can't teach become consultants and auditors.
or employers of millions of people.

MannyIsGod
04-05-2005, 12:14 PM
Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin.

Good article Dan, to bad the rest of the thread turned into SpinFest05

Extra Stout
04-05-2005, 12:18 PM
or employers of millions of people.Let's see if I can follow...

Category #1: Those who can, do (innovate, invent things, run businesses, employ people)

Category #2: Those who can't, teach (the elementary principles to those who will enter Category #1)

Category #3: Those who can't teach, consult or audit (for example, swindling the occasional person in Category #1 out of $25,000 to recommend they paint a wall yellow or something)

Category #4: Those who can't consult or audit, run for office (and create pork-barrel jobs for millions of people!)

And those who fall below all four categories just vote Democratic and wait for the check to come.

Is that an exhaustive list?

spurster
04-05-2005, 01:14 PM
There might be some self-interest here, as Demos are more likely to fund higher ed than Repubs.

As far as the "If I believe it, that makes it true" mentality, this is a universal condition. What makes for big problems is believing big falsehoods. Believing WMDs and nuclear bomb building in Iraq leads to a very expensive war. Not believing in global warming leads to policies that worsen the problem. Not believing in evolution leads to bad scientific education and falling behind the rest of the world in our education. Believing that abstinence-only is enough leads to less use of condoms and so more AIDS and STDs. Professors have this funny idea that beliefs are to be tested rather than followed blindly, and that if the tests differ from the beliefs, then we should change beliefs so we can make better decisions.

Useruser666
04-05-2005, 01:24 PM
Stereotypes. I support the teaching of evolution and not the teaching of creationism.

mookie2001
04-05-2005, 06:37 PM
What this tells me is that conservatives tend to be more blue-collar people, not afraid to do the hard work. Liberals are the white-collar class. They tend to think they are "above" such menial labor. That's what I can't help but think every time I read a report like this.




desflood is that true in san antonio?
i'd have to say its the exact opposite

desflood
04-05-2005, 07:14 PM
Well, I've only lived in San Antonio for a total of five years, so I don't know about here yet. But the other places I've lived, grand total of 22 years, I've found it to be exactly what I said.

Ocotillo
04-05-2005, 09:13 PM
Well, I've only lived in San Antonio for a total of five years, so I don't know about here yet. But the other places I've lived, grand total of 22 years, I've found it to be exactly what I said.

Prejudice......and an uninformed one at that.

desflood
04-05-2005, 09:30 PM
Care to explain? I only state what I've seen. Please enlighten me.

Ocotillo
04-05-2005, 10:29 PM
Quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one about blue collars being the conservatives and white collars being liberal. That is a broad statement that is completely lacking in fact.

There are blue collar liberals and blue collar conservatives. There is polling data that says "educated people", people with college degrees are more conservative than non-college educated people. It's a broad stroke and that is why it is prejudice. Not about race or ethnicity, but you are prejudging people about their work ethic etc.... based on their political views.

I think it comes down to values. Conservatives are drawn to certain professions i.e. business or the military. Liberals are drawn to certain professions like teaching or environmental science. You will find exceptions but I believe that has more to do with why there are so many "liberal" professors than laziness, ability or work ethic.

2centsworth
04-06-2005, 01:00 AM
Quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one about blue collars being the conservatives and white collars being liberal. That is a broad statement that is completely lacking in fact.

There are blue collar liberals and blue collar conservatives. There is polling data that says "educated people", people with college degrees are more conservative than non-college educated people. It's a broad stroke and that is why it is prejudice. Not about race or ethnicity, but you are prejudging people about their work ethic etc.... based on their political views.

I think it comes down to values. Conservatives are drawn to certain professions i.e. business or the military. Liberals are drawn to certain professions like teaching or environmental science. You will find exceptions but I believe that has more to do with why there are so many "liberal" professors than laziness, ability or work ethic.
I like you octillo, one of the most honest post I've read.

desflood
04-06-2005, 10:38 AM
Quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one about blue collars being the conservatives and white collars being liberal. That is a broad statement that is completely lacking in fact.

There are blue collar liberals and blue collar conservatives. There is polling data that says "educated people", people with college degrees are more conservative than non-college educated people. It's a broad stroke and that is why it is prejudice. Not about race or ethnicity, but you are prejudging people about their work ethic etc.... based on their political views.

I think it comes down to values. Conservatives are drawn to certain professions i.e. business or the military. Liberals are drawn to certain professions like teaching or environmental science. You will find exceptions but I believe that has more to do with why there are so many "liberal" professors than laziness, ability or work ethic.
You might be right about this in the world in general. However, the experiences I've had in my life tell me that most blue-collar conservatives are looked down upon by white-collar liberals. Do they really think they are a "better" class?

MannyIsGod
04-06-2005, 10:56 AM
I would say it is impossible to generalize the thoughts of an entire segment of the population into one mold. I'm sure there are some professors who look down upon blue collar workers, just as I'm sure there are some blue collar workers who do the same.

I don't think it's any different than any other segment of the population, and I think it's simply a stereotype perpetuated by misunderstanding.

Generaly speaking, I think those in academia have access to more information than the average Joe on most issues. Especially if it is in their field of study. A professor who studies political science is likely to have a much better grasp on the political situation than a factory worker who gets his information from then nightly news, and I think that is part of the reason for generaly different ideologies.

I will say this. I think on average a college professor is going to be much more well infomred than the average person walking on the street. There are always going to be exeptions to the rule, but I think generaly speaking that is true.

mookie2001
04-06-2005, 12:47 PM
manny dont you think its funny that republicans love to call liberals "elitist" so much
and then they get scoffed at for helping the middle and lower class with public assistance and taxing the rich


why is that, its like that kid at school who loved to call people homos and fags



on the professor subject i think it's because they read... books!
instead of watching foxnews all day and listening to Schnit show, Jeff Bolton, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity all day on my favorite am station the 50 thousand Watt Blowtorch WOAI San Antonio

Rick Von Braun
04-06-2005, 01:47 PM
Just a small comment on teaching.

At least in science departments (I do research in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering), most professors at top universities spend most of their time doing research. Only people at community colleges or other similar institutions spend most of their time teaching. In the past, some professors chose to only teach students and become very good at it. Nowdays, it is unthinkable to consider someone for an Assistant Professor (tenure-track) position without a strong commitment to research. Teaching is very time consuming, and I teach only for 2 reasons. First, I like it to some degree as long as it doesn't take too much of my time and because it is required by the university. Second, it is a very valuable tool to identify talent, since as a professor you are constantly recruiting good graduate students. I do not even consider any student for a research assistant (paid) position, unless he has already taken one of my classes and done well.

Most of the advances in my field in the last 50 years came from people doing research in both academic (top 20 universities) and research labs (Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies, Xerox Parc (now PARC), IBM Research, BBN Technologies, Microsoft Research, Intel Research, NEC Labs, HP Labs, DoCoMo Labs). Those advances have been crucial to position the US as a leader in technology, and most innovations came from researchers at both places.

Interesting enough, at least 40% of all the leading researchers have been foreigners (I don't have an exact number, but I wouldn't be surprised if this estimate is really low). That could partially explain why most researchers tend to be more liberal... they are eager to embrace new ideas, new people, and to explore, improve and innovate. Some xenophobic statements from conservative people in this country have not helped their cause.

desflood
04-06-2005, 02:00 PM
To liberals, elitist is a synonym for racist and sexist. To the populist Right, liberalism and elitism are two sides of a Janus face that never loses its symmetry: The further left a liberal moves, the more elitist he becomes. To feminists, an elitist is a facist is a pro-lifer.
No one can fling charges of elitism around like a paleoconservative going after a neo-con. To columnist Samuel Francis, an elitist is anyone he disagrees with-like George Will, who once suggested that gun control might be a good idea in a nation of people unable to program their VCRs.
To me elitism means a love of excellence and superiority, but America has declared war on both and developed a sick love of the lowest common denominator to make sure no one becomes too fine for our touted democracy. We are almost at the point of regarding every virtue as elitist. Pride and dignity are now signs of haughty detachment.
Let's face it: Elitism lends life a patina it sorely needs. God may have loved the common people, but He made far too many of them. ELITISM: The attitude that dares speak its name in politically correct times.

Florence King - 1995