Andrea Bustnani gets a $10 million a year extension

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312517


:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Spurs9]

Wow...what has he really even done for the team to earn that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wow...what has he really even done for the team to earn that.


It's classic Bryan Colangelo:

the team is absolutely horrible, so we better overpay the hell out of the low level talent we have so we don't get even worse. That's what he did with the Suns when he was GM, which is why the Suns fans who think letting him go killed the team are retarded.

[bdictjames]

So they're building the team around him now I presume?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So they're building the team around him now I presume?

Bryan Colangelo doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

[bdictjames]

Bryan Colangelo doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
Sounds familiar.

[mabrignani]

Wow...what has he really even done for the team to earn that.

hes hit some clutch shots, and he has been reppin' ITALIA hard. deal sounds good to me, put that money in the paisanos pocket

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sounds familiar.

Other than one good off season (signing Nash and Quentin Richardson), Colangelo has done nothing special as a GM, he's been more or less a disaster. He's no better than Kerr. He oversaw the 1995-2005 period where the Suns weren't contenders, and Kerr is going to oversee the 2008-2018 period where the Suns aren't contenders. Either way it sucks to be a Suns fan.

[DPG21920]

That is a lot of money, but Bargnani played very well last season. He has some serious upside. Don't know if they had to go that far, but he is talented.

[tomtom]

Not even close to being worth that much... wow I can't believe some teams

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Did any of you actually follow him last year? He finally seemed to get it, on offense anyway, and put up big numbers from January onwards.

Is he worth 10mil a year? Probably not, but it's not a huge overpayment - I would have thought 8mil was about right. He's a very talented offensive player with 3pt range who can drive the ball and blocks a few shots from the weakside when motivated. Poor rebounder, poor post defender. However, if Gortat is good for the MLE, then Bargnani has to be good for 7-8mil.

Mehmet Okur is paid 9mil and they are pretty similar players, although Bargnani hasn't yet maxed out his potential. The Raptors are no doubt hoping he'll continue to improve, although I have a feeling that Bargnani might be one of those guys who slacks off now that he has a big contract.

[wireonfire]

He may be worth that much based on his potential and the fact that he seems have figured out how to play in the NBA. But he is still the worst rebounding big in the NBA. How can he be so bad at that?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But he is still the worst rebounding big in the NBA. How can he be so bad at that?


Tiny hands. Tiny hands = a drop off in rebounding but better shooting.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

He may be worth that much based on his potential and the fact that he seems have figured out how to play in the NBA. But he is still the worst rebounding big in the NBA. How can he be so bad at that?

Not much heart.

He is a truly terrible rebounder.

[wireonfire]

Most Raptor fans seem to be happy about it.

[DPG21920]

I think it is a fair deal. But I am a Bargs fan and watch him closely. If he continues to progress, 10M is a very good deal.

[Kamnik]

10 mil :O Honestly... MLE should be more than enoguh for him. His +/- stats are horrible if im right...

[timvp]

Bryan Colangelo continues to be a top five overrated person in basketball.

[carrao45]

Odom is gonna be pissed if that scrub makes moremoney than him...

[Chieflion]

Odom is gonna be pissed if that scrub makes moremoney than him...
Hehehehe. I hope Buss does not enjoy paying 40 million in lux tax.

[Slomo]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312517


:lmao:lmao:lmao

Not nearly enough :lmaos to correctly convey my opinion :lol

[Pistons < Spurs]

Yeah, he's a poor rebounder, and weaker than I'd like. But he's still a 24 year old 7footer who can also shoot the 3 (40%). In the last 50 games or so, he averaged nearly 19pts 6rbs 1.5blks 10M is not that far off the mark. And it was probably smart to extend him now rather than letting him continue to improve thus driving up his market value.

[Chieflion]

Yeah, he's a poor rebounder, and weaker than I'd like. But he's still a 24 year old 7footer who can also shoot the 3 (40%). In the last 50 games or so, he averaged nearly 19pts 6rbs 1.5blks 10M is not that far off the mark. And it was probably smart to extend him now rather than letting him continue to improve thus driving up his market value.
Not really, if he did not sign an extension, he would be a restricted free agent. Many teams do not touch restricted free agents like Ramon Sessions and the Raptors would get him back easily. Rather than risk him slacking next season.

[The Franchise]

It's classic Bryan Colangelo:

the team is absolutely horrible, so we better overpay the hell out of the low level talent we have so we don't get even worse. That's what he did with the Suns when he was GM, which is why the Suns fans who think letting him go killed the team are retarded.

Well to be fair he is much better than the one you guys have now.

[ploto]

I think he is trying to show Bosh that he wants to build a team that will stick together. Bosh, Andrea, and Hedo is a pretty nice threesome to start a game. Hedo will help make up for Andrea's weak rebounding. I gave Andrea as hard a time as anyone but he really improved last year once Sam was gone.

As the number one pick, he will make $6.5M this coming season and $8.5M would have been qualifying offer for 2010.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Not really, if he did not sign an extension, he would be a restricted free agent. Many teams do not touch restricted free agents like Ramon Sessions and the Raptors would get him back easily. Rather than risk him slacking next season.

I hear ya, but next year will be different. Tons of teams have made sure they have available $$ for the 2010 FA's, foolishly thinking they have a chance of landing 'Bron or Bosh, somebody ... probably multiple somebodies ... would have gone after him.

Toronto locked up a talented big man who's only getting better for a fair price. I can't be mad at them.

[Pistons < Spurs]

In free agency, there are winners, there are losers, and there are the Raptors.

After coming to terms with the most popular girl in school, the Raps have also agreed to extend former number one overall pick, resident Italian, and Dirk Nowitzki’s shadow mainstay Andrea Bargnani for five years and around $50 million. That’s a chunk of change, and Bargnani, while solid, isn’t quite a chunk of a player.

Not to wave the HP banner too much, but Moore hit this one right on the head. This could easily be a move that inspires outrage from armchair GMs everywhere, claiming that Bargs doesn’t deserve this money and that the Raps are crazy for offering it. But Bargnani is a capable player and a contributor, and a young one at that. Forget the fact that he and Bosh play the same position and often fulfill similar roles and fill similar spaces. Those things are important, but when you’re the Toronto Raptors on the wrong side of this decade, you’ve got bigger fish to fry.

The Raps have Chris Bosh, Jose Calderon, and now Hedo Turkoglu, but not much else. The obvious motive, as Matt outlined at FanHouse, is to get a crew fun and quirky and talented enough for Bosh to want to stick around. Still, the Raps’ need for real talent goes deeper than that. It’s not just about keeping Bosh, but also about keeping the good players in Toronto in general. I don’t think that Toronto is an unattractive market or a bad city by any means, but the team is running low on players that matter, and this extension could be considered just one of many moves (in the past, and to come) made by Colangelo to salvage what he can from the current roster. Even if Bosh decides to bolt for greener pastures, the Raptors are going to need assets. They’re going to need players to build around or at the very least, that can be liquidated for some value in a rebuild. I doubt Bargs will fetch a sweet price on the trade market, but at this point he’s one of the more valuable chips the Raptors have. That’s not something that you let go walking out your front door, even if the scoring is streaky and it would be kind to describe the defense in the same way.

That’s why the Raptors essentially get a free pass on this extension. They could have waited a season to get negotiations underway, but since it’s clear that the Raps intend to keep Bargnani in Toronto, it’s hard to argue with their timing. Even in what was supposed to be a pinched market, contributing scorers are getting some big money. Charlie and Gordon got PAID by the Pistons, Hedo likely got a contract well above his value, a second-string center will sign with the Mavs for the full midlevel, and others like Brandon Bass and Glen Davis are likely to get sizable deals despite limited roles. There are teams willing to pay anyone who can play, and Bargs can sure as hell do that. Where his ceiling lies, and how this contract fits that ceiling is another debate altogether. It’s one that lies somewhere beyond the black and white, and beyond the gray area in between. Teams desperate to hold onto their talented sub-stars are operating in a spectrum unto themselves, where the typical judgments and evaluations need not apply.

http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/

[sonic21]

Bosh is out

[JamStone]

Question isn't whether he has potential to live up to the contract. Question is did Toronto have to pay that much to get him to sign an extension. Would he really have been insulted by a $7-8 million a year contract? Would another NBA team offer him something more? Would he bail and go to Europe if he didn't get $10 million per year? Just saying, it does sound a bit high for him, even as a 7 footer who played well and is still developing. But, hey, Memphis paid Darko $7 million a year after already being proven a bust, and Bogut got something like $11 million a year, and Kaman got something around the same. Young big men with legitimate size will get paid in this league, even if they're not worth it.

[resistanze]

Man, I'm not sure if I'm even going to follow them next year. Colangelo better pull a miracle out of his ass; I don't know what other quality players they can bring over for next season.

[lefty]

10 millions?

Holy fuck

While Banani had a good 2008-2009 individual season, you can't offer him that kind of contract based on 1 season :td

[resistanze]

Well, Colangelo is a dumbass. But he wears very hip suits and crosses his arms a lot, so I'm satisfied.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bryan Colangelo continues to be a top five overrated person in basketball.


By far the best comment in this thread

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well to be fair he is much better than the one you guys have now.


Not really.

[hater]

he's softer than Dirk. That says it all

[Darthkiller]

Not even close to being worth that much... wow I can't believe some teams

actually, barganani played just as well as Rashard Lewis last season. Lewis gets paid more than twice as much. it's acutally a bargan.

[hater]

bad comparison. Lewis is probably the most overpayed athlete in sports

[Spurs Brazil]

Terrible contract

[dave]

holy shit
while the nearly 20/8 he averaged after december last season was nice,
thats a shitload of money...

[DPG21920]

It is not Bargs only good season. His rookie season was damn good (25 mins, 43% FG, 37% 3PT FG, 82% FT, 4 REB, .8 AST, .8 BLK, 12 PTS), compare that with Dirks's rookie season (20 mins, 41% FG, 21% 3PT FG, 77% FT, 3.4 REB, 1 AST, .6 BLKS, 8.2 PTS).

That is a solid first season for Bargs and he had a fantastic playoff showing. Then he struggled his second year and everyone ripped him. Fair enough, but he bounced back in a big way this year and especially from the All Star Break and on.

10M is not a bad deal at all for someone showing the ability to be this versatile and big. He is a nice athlete and has a better attacking the rim game than Dirk does. He may not improve much and then you could argue the 10M was wasted, but many guys his size with half of his tools make the same amount or more. If he continues to develop, then 10M is a great deal.


P.S.: No matter what Timvp will rip Bargs. He had a solid season and he still rips him because he is not Dirk. He was a #1 pick, but not a traditional one. It was not a deep draft and he has time to be the best player out of the draft still. When you draft like that you have to hope your number 1 pick is a top 5 player in his class (give or take) before you can call him a bust. Here is a list of players one might try and argue or definitely say are better from his class as of now:

Paul Millsap - Debatable 2nd round pick
LaMarcus Aldrigde - Debatable 2nd pick
Brandon Roy - Definitely better right now 6th pick
Randy Foye- Debatable 7th pick
Rudy Gay - Debatable 8th pick
Rajon Rondo - Definitely better right now 21st pick

That is only 6 players that can even be argued and only 2 that are for sure better right now. I would say imo that only Roy/Rondo/Millsap are better and Millsap is tough because of his role/minutes played. Bargs still has the potential to be just as good as all of them.

[Darthkiller]

really? Id rather have a 7 footer that can shoot than Rondo.

[DPG21920]

Well Rondo was a starter on a championship team, so you easily have to give him the nod. Plus he had an excellent year last year. Some people love Rondo, some hate him, but he has had some success.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

P.S.: No matter what Timvp will rip Bargs. He had a solid season and he still rips him because he is not Dirk. He was a #1 pick, but not a traditional one. It was not a deep draft and he has time to be the best player out of the draft still.


He'll never be as good as Brandon Roy.

[DPG21920]

He'll never be as good as Brandon Roy.

How can you say that? Brandon Roy will never be 7 feet tall. Let it play out. I am not saying it is likely, but if he can be any where close (which is hard to project because they play on different teams and different positions) that would be a very successful pick.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How can you say that?


Because I can.

Also, for all the mediocre stats you post about Angelina Macaroni, you're ignoring the fact he couldn't stop a cupcake from scoring.

[DPG21920]

Because I can.

Also, for all the mediocre stats you post about Angelina Macaroni, you're ignoring the fact he couldn't stop a cupcake from scoring.

Yes you can say it, does not make it right.

Bargnani is in his third year, I am not saying he is a defensive all-star. Dirk could stop someone? Al Jefferson could? Amare could?

[DPG21920]

The guy is a scorer and a unique one at that. If he continues to grow and learn he can be very very good. He can work on his rebounding as well. His shot blocking was up (not that it is an indication of good defense) which is useful as well.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk could? Al Jefferson could? Amare could?


They're not a part of this discussion, and that's not really fair to big Al. If he still is lazy on defense after he gets teammates that contribute on offense and create their own shot, then he's officially a bad defender. Until then he's a guy that needs to focus all his energy on offense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No matter how you look at it can we at least agree he's not worth close to what he was just extended for?

[Bob Lanier]

It's fair value.

[ginobili's bald spot]

It's fair value.

:lol What?

[DPG21920]

Because I can.

Also, for all the mediocre stats you post about Angelina Macaroni, you're ignoring the fact he couldn't stop a cupcake from scoring.


Dirk 98-99: 20.4 min / 41% FG / 21% 3PT / 77% FT / 3.4 Reb / 1 AST / .6 BLK / 8.2 PPG

Barg 06-07: 25 min / 43% FG / 37% 3PT / 82% FT / 3.9 Reb / .8 AST / .8 BLK / 11.6 PPG


Dirk 99-00: 36 min / 46% FG / 38% 3PT / 83% FT / 6.5 Reb / 2.5 AST / .8 BLK / 17.5 PPG

Barg 07-08: 24 min / 39% FG / 35% 3PT / 84% FT / 3.7 Reb / 1.1 AST / .5 BLK / 10.2 PPG


Dirk 00-01: 38 min / 47% FG/ 38% 3PT / 84% FT / 9.2 Reb / 2.1 AST / 1.2 BLK / 22 PPG

Barg 08-09: 31 min / 45% FG / 41% 3PT / 83% FT / 5.3 Reb / 1.2 AST / 1.2 BLK / 15.4 PPG


His numbers (minus the rebounding) compare pretty favorably with Dirk's first three years (with the exception of the drop off year in his second). He has bounced back nicely though this year.

He has the tools to score like Dirk (not quite as good) and he is just as good of a defender (not bad down low, just bad on Pick and Roll which is strange because he is athletic). You could easily call him a poor mans Dirk. Dirk makes 21M and Bargs has proven he is at least half the player Dirk is through his first 3 years, so 10M seems fair.

If Bargs continues to progress he can be damn good overall. He needs to pick up the focus on rebounding and put more effort in defensively (but Dirk never did that until Avery came around). He is going to be a very good scorer no matter what and I would not be surprised to see him hit the 20 PPG mark here soon. It took Dirk until his 3rd year to do so and that was with him playing 38 minutes per game. Dirk did not have to share the ball with Bosh either.

[DPG21920]

They're not a part of this discussion, and that's not really fair to big Al. If he still is lazy on defense after he gets teammates that contribute on offense and create their own shot, then he's officially a bad defender. Until then he's a guy that needs to focus all his energy on offense.

Don't play that bull shit card. It is an analogy and a fair one at that. Why does Bargs get ripped for defense and not these other guys? They are scorers and so is Bargs.

He is not there for defensive purposes and that would be a bonus if he picks that part of his game up. Not fair to Al? So his defensive effort is predicated on his teammmates? No, you play hard if you are a good defensive player. There are good defensive players that play on bad defensive teams that still play hard there.

If you are going to judge a player, at least judge him in his role. He is a scorer.

[DPG21920]

No matter how you look at it can we at least agree he's not worth close to what he was just extended for?

No. It is not egregious enough to scoff at. It is in the ball park of what is fair imo for a young big with his skill sets coming off of a solid year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not fair to Al? So his defensive effort is predicated on his teammmates?


My point is we cannot officially declare Al a "bad defender" until his team surrounds him with better offensive players. It's hard to be an active defender when you have to do as much as Al does on offense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No. It is not egregious enough to scoff at. It is in the ball park of what is fair imo for a young big with his skill sets coming off of a solid year.


More like a solid half-year. Giving a player a 5 year 50 million dollar extension for a solid 40-50 game stretch is stupid. Similar to giving Diaw a 5 year 40 million dollar extension for the one good season he had when his career had been a joke otherwise.

[jacobdrj]

It took me a second to 'get' who you were talking about. When the OP posted 'Andrea Bustnani' he means Andrei B#@%@^&%^gngngni&%*^#^&#@%$^!@^#$ni.

My bad, I am just slow today.

[DPG21920]

More like a solid half-year. Giving a player a 5 year 50 million dollar extension for a solid 40-50 game stretch is stupid. Similar to giving Diaw a 5 year 40 million dollar extension for the one good season he had when his career had been a joke otherwise.

What are you talking about half year? He had one bad month in December, the rest were damn good.

Season Splits by month:

In October: 25 MPG, FG .571, 3PT .500, FT 1.000, REB 5.0, AST 1.0, BLK 2.5, PTS 9.5

In November: 28.6 MPG, FG .449, 3PT .431, FT .900, REB 5.3, AST 1.1, BLK 1.6, PTS 12.4

In December: 24.5 MPG, FG .346, 3PT .273, FT .842, REB 3.4, AST 0.7, BLK 1.1, PTS 8.6

In January: 35.6 MPG, FG .487, 3PT .480, FT .795, REB 6.2, AST 1.3, BLK 0.6, PTS 19.8

In February: 36.8 MPG, FG .412, 3PT .311, FT .810, REB 7.1, AST 1.5, BLK 1.1, PTS 17.9

In March: 33.3 MPG, FG .518, 3PT .519, FT .870, REB, 5.9, AST 1.5, BLK1.3, PTS 20.3

In April: 33.5 MPG, FG .444, 3PT .318, FT .786, REB 3.8, AST 1.5, BLK 2.5, PTS 16.3

Like I said, one bad month really. He had nice spurts of shot blocking and rebounding improvments. He scored very well.

[Obstructed_View]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/Orly.jpg

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If I'm ever a GM with a 1st overall pick, I'll be really disappointed with myself if those are the numbers that player is putting up in his 3rd season.

[da_suns_fan]

If I'm ever a GM with a 1st overall pick, I'll be really disappointed with myself if those are the numbers that player is putting up in his 3rd season.

It was a pretty crappy draft. The only player to come out of there with any real potential was Brandon Roy (which I CALLED on draft night, btw :king).

Its like blaming Jordan for drafting Kwame Brown. Who else should he have taken??? Mike Miller??

[Obstructed_View]

If those numbers are worth ten million a year, then McDyess at the MLE is hugely underpaid.

[Findog]

If I'm ever a GM with a 1st overall pick, I'll be really disappointed with myself if those are the numbers that player is putting up in his 3rd season.

Bargnani is only a bust in the sense that he had no business being a #1 overall pick. I can't believe, what was it, 6 teams passed on Roy? And the team that did pick him immediately shipped him out. It should've been obvious he was the best player in the draft.

The most egregious passes were Charlotte taking Morrison and Atlanta taking Black Shrek.

[DPG21920]

He is not a "traditional #1 pick". No one in that draft was. No one in that draft can be built around to lead a team to titles like a Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/Kobe. Not even Roy. You can just hope for a solid player with that pick and hope he is one of the best in the draft in a crap shoot style draft like that.

He is. IMO, he is currently the 4th best player from that draft and could be the second best when it is all said and done. It would take a massive jump in his game to be considered the best over Roy, but I will not rule it out although it seems unlikely.

He is on a team with another dominate big man in Bosh. To be able to put up 15 & 5 with 45% FG, 40% 3PT & 83% FT along with over a block per game is not terrible. He will be up over the 20 PPG mark soon. It took Dirk 3 years to top the 20 PPG mark and Dirk has more talent.

[Obstructed_View]

Its like blaming Jordan for drafting Kwame Brown. Who else should he have taken??? Mike Miller??

That Gasol guy was pretty decent. In fact, I'd bet that everybody in the top several picks of that draft has been better than Kwame.

[Findog]

It was a pretty crappy draft. The only player to come out of there with any real potential was Brandon Roy (which I CALLED on draft night, btw :king).

Its like blaming Jordan for drafting Kwame Brown. Who else should he have taken??? Mike Miller??

And I understand why they wanted Bargnani: Colangelo is trying to assemble a UN roster to appeal to the population in Toronto. It's why you see an inordinate # of white guys playing for the Jazz.

[Obstructed_View]

He is not a "traditional #1 pick". No one in that draft was. No one in that draft can be built around to lead a team to titles like a Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/Kobe. Not even Roy. You can just hope for a solid player with that pick and hope he is one of the best in the draft in a crap shoot style draft like that.

So paying said player 10 million dollars a year, virtually guaranteeing yourself no chance of retaining Chris Bosh, compounds the problem.

[DPG21920]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q228/GeneralPurpose/Spurstalk/Orly.jpg

WTF does this add to the convo? No one said he is better than Roy. But if Bargs tops 20 PPG, he will certainly be hell of a lot closer.

[DPG21920]

So paying said player 10 million dollars a year, virtually guaranteeing yourself no chance of retaining Chris Bosh, compounds the problem.

WTF? How does this in any way effect signing Bosh? In fact it helps. Bargs developing is a good piece next to Bosh and the Raps have his Bird Rights so they can offer him more money than anyone, no matter how much they paid Bargnani.

LMAO at McDyess over Bargs. McDyess defense is not that great (I would argue Bargs is a better low post defender), but his perimeter defense is better than Bargs.

Bargs is a MUCH better scorer all around and is younger.

[Findog]

That Gasol guy was pretty decent. In fact, I'd bet that everybody in the top several picks of that draft has been better than Kwame.

All things considered, I'd still take Kwame over Eddie Griffin.

[DPG21920]

That Gasol guy was pretty decent. In fact, I'd bet that everybody in the top several picks of that draft has been better than Kwame.

Ok, but what about the Bargs draft? Who should he have taken? The only two right now you can say for certain are Rondo and Roy. That is not that bad and Bargs still has time to grow into a better player. He has the talent, yall just like to rip on him.

He may never reach full potential or be a Dirk, but he is still going to end up as a top 5 player in his draft.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It was a pretty crappy draft. The only player to come out of there with any real potential was Brandon Roy (which I CALLED on draft night, btw :king).

Its like blaming Jordan for drafting Kwame Brown. Who else should he have taken??? Mike Miller??


Try Pau Gasol.

At the time, I said I would have taken Gay at #1. Both he and Roy would be way better options than Macaroni.

[Obstructed_View]

WTF does this add to the convo? No one said he is better than Roy. But if Bargs tops 20 PPG, he will certainly be hell of a lot closer.

Don't get sand in your vagina. If he suddenly starts pulling down 12 rebounds a game or magically shits out Magic Johnson, he'll be closer too, but that's not reality. Based on his production, he's neither the best player from that draft, nor is he even close to being worth 10 million dollars a year, much less being extended a year before it's necessary.

And I could swear someone DID say he was the best player in the draft, which means he's better than Roy, right?

[Obstructed_View]

Ok, but what about the Bargs draft? Who should he have taken? The only two right now you can say for certain are Rondo and Roy. That is not that bad and Bargs still has time to grow into a better player. He has the talent, yall just like to rip on him.

He may never reach full potential or be a Dirk, but he is still going to end up as a top 5 player in his draft.

Let me say this again: You do not pay a guy ten million dollars a year just because he was better than all but four other guys in a weak draft.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

he is still going to end up as a top 5 player in his draft.


Doesn't change the fact he's not worth 10 million a year.

[da_suns_fan]

My mistake...I was confusing the 2001 draft with the 2000.

Looking at 2001, there were a LOT of plyers that turned into great players in the league..

2000 was the terrible draft.

I guess Jordan really did screw up.

[DPG21920]

Don't get sand in your vagina. If he suddenly starts pulling down 12 rebounds a game or magically shits out Magic Johnson, he'll be closer too, but that's not reality. Based on his production, he's neither the best player from that draft, nor is he even close to being worth 10 million dollars a year, much less being extended a year before it's necessary.

If he tops 20 PPG, he will beat Roy in a stat by stat run down based on the ones you listed.

Points would be close. And ya, acting like someone who is a legit scorer with range and good %'s jumping from 15 to 20 is the same as comparing him jumping up to 12 boards (best in the NBA almost) and "shitting out Magic Johnson". Good call :tu

He will out rebound roy, shoot better from 3 and FT, out block him. Stats wise it will be close if you just do a score card.

Based on his production NO ONE SAID HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER. WTF is your point? That is not the argument. He is a top 4 player from the draft now and could easily jump to #2 if he keeps improving. If he goes over 20 PPG (which is not a stretch) he will be the 2nd best player (or arguable with Rondo).

Not worth it in your eyes, but when you look at his skill set and size, the contract is not that far off.

[Obstructed_View]

If he tops 20 PPG, he will beat Roy in a stat by stat run down based on the ones you listed.

Points would be close. And ya, acting like someone who is a legit scorer with range and good %'s jumping from 15 to 20 is the same as comparing him jumping up to 12 boards (best in the NBA almost) and "shitting out Magic Johnson". Good call :tu

Based on his production NO ONE SAID HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER. WTF is your point? That is not the argument. He is a top 4 player from the draft now and could easily jump to #2 if he keeps improving. If he goes over 20 PPG (which is not a stretch) he will be the 2nd best player (or arguable with Rondo).

Not worth it in your eyes, but when you look at his skill set and size, the contract is not that far off.

So if he increases his point production by 25 percent and doubles his rebounding, he has a chance of being worth what they're paying him. Wow, what was I thinking? Great signing, Toronto! All we need to do now is pray that he suddenly becomes something he's never been in his career.

Paying guys on what you hope they become is what lottery teams are made of.

Signing a guy to a big extension because he was the first pick in a bad draft is called throwing good money after bad.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, Roy, Gay, Rondo, Aldridge. 4 guys already better than him. If Foye stops getting injured and plays to his potential, Bargnani could very well be out of that top 5. It's not a guarantee he's one of the top 5 players from that draft class.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He is a top 4 player from the draft now


Aldridge, Gay, Roy, Rondo.

[DPG21920]

Don't get sand in your vagina. If he suddenly starts pulling down 12 rebounds a game or magically shits out Magic Johnson, he'll be closer too, but that's not reality. Based on his production, he's neither the best player from that draft, nor is he even close to being worth 10 million dollars a year, much less being extended a year before it's necessary.

And I could swear someone DID say he was the best player in the draft, which means he's better than Roy, right?


Let me say this again: You do not pay a guy ten million dollars a year just because he was better than all but four other guys in a weak draft.


Doesn't change the fact he's not worth 10 million a year.

How good he is in comparison to other guys in the draft is not about how much money he is paid, it is about refuting the "bust" label.

No one said he was the best, it is obvious he is not. But he could be damn close.

I do not care where he got drafted, his unique size/scoring ability and progress means he is worth somewhere close to his current extension imo when you compare the other bigs making close to that (say from 8.5 and up...).

It in no way effects Bosh re signing and could end being a steal. Even if he does not grow any more, but continues to shoot 45% FG, 40% 3PT, 83% FT, while scoring 15 PPG / 5+REB / 1+ BLKs, 10M won't be a ridiculous contract. It would be dissapointing if that happens from a management standpoint, and if they knew for sure that is all they would get they would probably have offered him 7M any ways which would be fair IMO. That is not that bad from a risk stand point on a young player like him.

[DPG21920]

Also, Roy, Gay, Rondo, Aldridge. 4 guys already better than him. If Foye stops getting injured and plays to his potential, Bargnani could very well be out of that top 5. It's not a guarantee he's one of the top 5 players from that draft class.

Gay and Aldridge? You cannot say with any kind of certainty that they are better than Bargs. The numbers are very close.

It is not a guarantee, but likely imo. He is definitely not a bust. If all the players you mention get better and he does not, no question he will be out. If he gets better along with them, he has just as much, if not more talent and he will be the best scorer.

[Bob Lanier]

:lmao at Obstructed_View going hyper-aggro and then responding to criticism with "don't get sand in your vagina."

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Even if he does not grow any more, but continues to shoot 45% FG, 40% 3PT, 83% FT, while scoring 15 PPG / 5+REB / 1+ BLKs, 10M won't be a ridiculous contract.


If this were a shooting guard then yes, but your center shouldn't be shooting 45% and not even grabbing 6 rebounds. Yes I know that makes him a unique player, but it doesn't win basketball games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Gay and Aldridge? You cannot say with any kind of certainty that they are better than Bargs. The numbers are very close.

Bustnani:
15.4 points, 5.3 boards, 1.2 blocks, 45% from the field, 83% from the line

Aldridge:
18.1 points, 7.5 boards, 1.0 blocks, 48% from the field, 78% from the line

And almost all of those stats are just offensive stats. Aldridge is also a better defender, and he plays on a winning team. Aldridge > macaroni

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, if Gay and Aldridge has Jose Calderon at point, they would put up way better numbers than they do. A great amount of Bargnani's points are created by Calderon.

[DPG21920]

:lmao
So if he increases his point production by 25 percent and doubles his rebounding, he has a chance of being worth what they're paying him. Wow, what was I thinking? Great signing, Toronto! All we need to do now is pray that he suddenly becomes something he's never been in his career.

Paying guys on what you hope they become is what lottery teams are made of.

Signing a guy to a big extension because he was the first pick in a bad draft is called throwing good money after bad.

Once again what the hell are you talking about? Was it you that said you did not know who Mason was? If so, I know you could not possibly have watched Bargs play, or anyone outside the Spurs for that matter with any kind of regularity. So how can you speak about his game so matter of factly?

Yes, he can be a 20 PPG scorer and it would not be a stretch at all. At All. Many players make that jump, and he has already averaged that in spurts.

Double his rebounding :lmao why would he have to do that? So you are saying 20/11 is only worth 10M? GTFO. If he averages 20 PPG and keeps his rebounding the same (along with his efficient scoring %'s from the field, 3 and the FT line) along with keeping his blocks over 1 like he is now, 10M is a steal.

Once again, you do not know what you are talking about. Pray that he becomes something he has never been in his 3 year career? A scorer. That is is it. He has always scored. You are expecting him to be Duncan and he is not. He is a flat our scorer with some other tools (decent post defense, abiltity to run/space the floor and block some shots).

Evaluate him on what he is, not what you think a guy making 20M should be. He makes 10M. So yes, even if nothing else changes but he goes from 15 to 20 PPG, he will be worth it.

[DPG21920]

Bustnani:
15.4 points, 5.3 boards, 1.2 blocks, 45% from the field, 83% from the line

Aldridge:
18.1 points, 7.5 boards, 1.0 blocks, 48% from the field, 78% from the line

And almost all of those stats are just offensive stats. Aldridge is also a better defender, and he plays on a winning team. Aldridge > macaroni

What about 3PT %? What about minutes played? You cannot say it is not good to have your center shooting 45%...He is not used like a traditional center. He shoots away from the basket.

Once again you are comparing him against something he is not.

[DPG21920]

Also, if Gay and Aldridge has Jose Calderon at point, they would put up way better numbers than they do. A great amount of Bargnani's points are created by Calderon.

If Gay and Aldridge had Bosh, there numbers would go down because Bosh would dominate and get the looks.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He shoots away from the basket.


That's his choice. It's not like god hypnotized him into only being able to shoot jumpers, he chooses to take outside shots because he's too much of a puss to go inside. Therefore that makes him a worse player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Gay and Aldridge had Bosh, there numbers would go down because Bosh would dominate and get the looks.


Same could be said for Brandon Roy and Orange Juice Mayonnaise.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You cannot say it is not good to have your center shooting 45%.


Why not? I thought the whole point of giving your big man the ball is so he can shoot a high percentage shot.

[DPG21920]

That's his choice. It's not like god hypnotized him into only being able to shoot jumpers, he chooses to take outside shots because he's too much of a puss to go inside. Therefore that makes him a worse player.

So all players that play inside are better than guys outside? Dumb logic. It is his choice and that is who he is.

It is a hell of a lot easier to teach a guy with size and athleticism to go inside (see Dirk) than it is to take a guy and teach him to have range. Bargs has more offensive skill than all of the guys in the draft or very close to it.

Bargs is not as bad inside as some make him out to be. He is a strong dunker and his atheltic. He should do it more, but he is starting to mix it up a little bit.

I am not going to change anyone's mind and only time will tell. But my point remains that for his skill/potential/what he has already accomplished, I do not think 10M is that far off what is fair.

[Obstructed_View]

:lmao

Once again what the hell are you talking about? Was it you that said you did not know who Mason was? If so, I know you could not possibly have watched Bargs play, or anyone outside the Spurs for that matter with any kind of regularity. So how can you speak about his game so matter of factly?

Double his rebounding :lmao why would he have to do that? So you are saying 20/11 is only worth 10M? GTFO. If he averages 20 PPG and keeps his rebounding the same (along with his efficient scoring %'s from the field, 3 and the FT line) along with keeping his blocks over 1 like he is now, 10M is a steal.

I wouldn't speak about players I don't know, or else I wouldn't admit that I didn't know who Roger Mason was. When you find me posting my opinions about Roger Mason before I knew who he was be sure and let me know. Until then, try to stay on topic. Besides, a guy who was drafted in the second round, played three games with his team, was traded and cut is not the same as a guy who was the number one pick in the draft.

I'm not the one saying a guy isn't overpaid because it's possible that he might improve his scoring by five points per game. My point, once again: The Raptors could have waited to see how he progressed during the upcoming season and paid him roughly the same amount. The only way this signing isn't premature is if he blows up into a 15-20 million a year player this season.


Evaluate him on what he is.
Good advice. Maybe you should take it.

[DPG21920]

Why not? I thought the whole point of giving your big man the ball is so he can shoot a high percentage shot.

Because when you factor in his production from 3, his true shooting percentage is 56%, which is pretty high percentage. That is why. Like I said, compare his stats in true light, not just on the surface.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So all players that play inside are better than guys outside?


Big men that play inside have certainly been on a lot more championship teams than big men who play outside.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Evaluate him on what he is


A poor man's Mehmet Okur.

[DPG21920]

I wouldn't speak about players I don't know, or else I wouldn't admit that I didn't know who Roger Mason was. When you find me posting my opinions about Roger Mason before I knew who he was be sure and let me know. Until then, try to stay on topic. Besides, a guy who was drafted in the second round, played three games with his team, was traded and cut is not the same as a guy who was the number one pick in the draft.

I'm not the one saying a guy isn't overpaid because it's possible that he might improve his scoring by five points per game. My point, once again: The Raptors could have waited to see how he progressed during the upcoming season and paid him roughly the same amount. The only way this signing isn't premature is if he blows up into a 15-20 million a year player this season.



Good advice. Maybe you should take it.

If that was not you saying you did not know who Mason was then I apologize. Point was that made it seem like you did not have league pass or watch other teams on a consistent basis.

You said if he increases his scoring by 25% (from 15 to 20) and doubles his rebounding (from 5.5 to 11) that he might be worth 10M. That is bull shit. I refuted it already and said even if he does not improve at all, but maintains, 10M would still not be that far off. If he does move to 20 PPG, which seems likely based on his growth, 10M is more than fair. If he improves anything else, 10M would be a steal.

You could definitely argue that it was premature, but that is not what you were doing the entire time.

You said:

1) He is a bust - not true
2) His signing would effect Bosh's contract - not true
3) He would have to score 20 PPG and average 11 rebounds to have the 10M maybe be fair.


But if you are saying it is just pre mature, you may have a point. They could have waited and it might turn out to be a bad move if he regresses in a major way. But I think they were banking on him taking that leap and wanted to lock him up cheaply. Lets see how it works out.

[DPG21920]

Big men that play inside have certainly been on a lot more championship teams than big men who play outside.

That is not the point. So any big man who does not have a championship and does not play inside is worse than bigs who play inside? So Dirk is worse than Al Jefferson? Okur is worse than Tyson Chandler?


He is never going to be the center piece to a title team, but rarely are guys that make 10M. There are plenty of guys making double that, with no rings and no ability to get better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That is not the point. So any big man who does not have a championship and does not play inside is worse than bigs who play inside? So Dirk is worse than Al Jefferson? Okur is worse than Tyson Chandler?


Okur has a championship son.


And if I were building a team today, I'd take Al Jefferson over Dirk.

[DPG21920]

A poor man's Mehmet Okur.

His numbers are better than Okur's in his first three years. Right now he his on pace to be better and he is a much better athlete than Okur. Okur averaged 17 and 7 with less than a block per game and he makes 9M. Bargs was not that far from that for the year and the second half of the season he was just as good if not better than that. Seems to be pretty fair value.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And thank for only helping my point. A large reason Dallas couldn't finish Miami off is because Dallas had no one who could get high percentage shots in the paint.

[DPG21920]

Okur has a championship son.


And if I were building a team today, I'd take Al Jefferson over Dirk.

Ya, Okur averaged a whopping 11 minutes per game for his title. He did not lead his team.

If your goal was to win today, no way you take Al over Dirk. If your goal is way down the road, then yes, but only because of age. But you keep trying to bull shit around and not compare apples to apples.

Dirk is 10x better than Al if you look at Dirk's prime and he was an outside big, like Bargs. So your point about "all inside players are better or have rings" is not being intellectually honest.

Bargs is not going to lead his team to a ring, but he could help on a very good team for sure.

[Obstructed_View]

If that was not you saying you did not know who Mason was then I apologize. Point was that made it seem like you did not have league pass or watch other teams on a consistent basis.

I said I didn't know who Roger Mason was. I didn't say I didn't watch other teams. You said I needed League Pass. I said I still wouldn't watch the Wizards even if I did.


You said if he increases his scoring by 25% (from 15 to 20) and doubles his rebounding (from 5.5 to 11) that he might be worth 10M. That is bull shit. I refuted it already and said even if he does not improve at all, but maintains, 10M would still not be that far off. If he does move to 20 PPG, which seems likely based on his growth, 10M is more than fair. If he improves anything else, 10M would be a steal.
Actually what I was trying to say is what I've been trying to say all along: Hoping that he scores more points is like hoping he suddenly starts grabbing more rebounds. He's not likely to be getting more touches, and he's not likely to be playing more minutes. He shoots a pretty good percentage so I'm puzzled how these scoring numbers are suddenly going to jump by 25 percent. Even so, they could probably have offered him the exact same contract a year from now and he'd have taken it.



You could definitely argue that it was premature, but that is not what you were doing the entire time.
Aside from taking issue with whoever incorrectly said he was the best player in his draft (which I could swear was you), saying it was premature is EXACTLY what I've been saying all along.




You said:
1) He is a bust - not true
You should probably go back and find where I said that, because I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I said he's not the best player in his draft, and that overpaying him just because he was the number one pick is a mistake, as is overpaying him because you suddenly hope he's going to shoot 65 percent from three point range next year.


You said:
2) His signing would effect Bosh's contract - not true
Yep, I was wrong about that, as I usually am with anything having to do with the rules of signing contracts. You explained it which is why I never mentioned it again.


You said:
3) He would have to score 20 PPG and average 11 rebounds to have the 10M maybe be fair.
Not exactly. I was making fun of you for suggesting that his contract was fair based on numbers that you pulled out of your ass. I just added to them, since that's what you can do with numbers you pull out of your ass. Doesn't have any basis in reality, and it's certainly no way to justify a contract extension.



But if you are saying it is just pre mature, you may have a point. They could have waited and it might turn out to be a bad move if he regresses in a major way. But I think they were banking on him taking that leap and wanted to lock him up cheaply. Lets see how it works out.
I agree. I'll put all the previous hyperbole aside and adopt the wait-and-see approach. It seems like too much of a risk, since they could have waited, at very least, several months to re-sign him. He's a good player but I must admit I was shocked when I heard about the deal. I certainly wouldn't be annoyed if he scored 21 points per game next year and made you look like a genius.

If he does, you need to make sure to bump this thread.

[DPG21920]

And thank for only helping my point. A large reason Dallas couldn't finish Miami off is because Dallas had no one who could get high percentage shots in the paint.

So why can't the Wolves get out of the lottery with Al? Why could the Celtics not suck with Al even when he had Pierce? Why was KG able to come in and win a title and not Al? KG does not play down low, he shoots mid range jumpers.


You are being like a Ghazi or some other person that is trying to isolate little points that have no bearing and makes very little sense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bargs is not going to lead his team to a ring


Softnani will never be starting on a championship team, that's what I'm saying.

[Obstructed_View]

Ya, Okur averaged a whopping 11 minutes per game for his title. He did not lead his team.

:lol

Agreed. Menkge Bateer for 10m a year!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So why can't the Wolves get out of the lottery with Al?


Because their 2nd best player last year was Randy Foye.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why could the Celtics not suck with Al even when he had Pierce? Why was KG able to come in and win a title and not Al? KG does not play down low, he shoots mid range jumpers.


Did you just forget Ray Allen and James Posey or did you intentionally leave them out?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also saying KG doesn't play down low is retarded. Yeah he settles for mid range jumpers too much but gets plenty of inside points, he's also not scared of contact like pussnani.

[DPG21920]

I don't get that O_V. He only averaged 31 MPG. He is on a similar trajectory as other scorers like him (Dirk, Okur...). Those guys did not hit the 20 PPG mark until their 3rd year of later and only after they averaged about 37-39 MPG.

When you look at Barg's numbers when he gets the 37+ MPG he is damn close to their production from a scoring standpoint.

In January this year, he averaged 35.6 MPG and you got 19.8 PPG from him.
In Feb this year, he averaged 36.8 MPG and you got 18 PPG from him.
In March this year, he averaged 33.3 MPG and you got 20 PPG from him.
In April this year, he averaged 33 MPG and you got 16 PPG from him.

Any time he has gotten those minutes up around 35+ he has been on 20PPG. He just signed a contract extension, had a good year and you would expect him to get those minutes. Will he for sure? I do not know. But I am not pulling numbers from my ass like you claim. They are based on what I have seen.

[Obstructed_View]

Also saying KG doesn't play down low is retarded. Yeah he settles for mid range jumpers too much but gets plenty of inside points, he's also not scared of contact like pussnani.

KG shoots turnaround jumpers from the high post. He's not an inside player, and he's not a low-post player. At least not nearly as much as he's made out to be.

[DPG21920]

Softnani will never be starting on a championship team, that's what I'm saying.

Neither will Amare, why is he paid so much?
Neither will Boozer, why is he paid so much?

[Obstructed_View]

I don't get that O_V. He only averaged 31 MPG. He is on a similar trajectory as other scorers like him (Dirk, Okur...). Those guys did not hit the 20 PPG mark until their 3rd year of later and only after they averaged about 37-39 MPG.

When you look at Barg's numbers when he gets the 37+ MPG he is damn close to their production from a scoring standpoint.

In January this year, he averaged 35.6 MPG and you got 19.8 PPG from him.
In Feb this year, he averaged 36.8 MPG and you got 18 PPG from him.
In March this year, he averaged 33.3 MPG and you got 20 PPG from him.
In April this year, he averaged 33 MPG and you got 16 PPG from him.

Any time he has gotten those minutes up around 35+ he has been on 20PPG. He just signed a contract extension, had a good year and you would expect him to get those minutes. Will he for sure? I do not know. But I am not pulling numbers from my ass like you claim. They are based on what I have seen.

Yeah, you're right. The minutes are the key. As a good outside shooter I didn't see how he could increase his percentage, but if he's getting more minutes it makes sense. His touches seem like they're going to have to drop with Turoglu on board. How's he average 27 minutes per game the rest of the season? It's obviously not matchups.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Neither will Amare, why is he paid so much?
Neither will Boozer, why is he paid so much?


Amare and Boozer are both over paid players.

[DPG21920]

Did you just forget Ray Allen and James Posey or did you intentionally leave them out?

WTF does that matter. By your weak ass standards, Jefferson is a beast and his down low game combined with Paul Pierce/Antonie Walker/Perkins/Delonte West should have been enough to beast.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why were his minutes down so far the rest of the time?


The doctor said his yeast infection needed to heal.

[DPG21920]

Why were his minutes down so far the rest of the time?

Because he had a bad second year and he is only in his 3rd season. They are creeping up just like other players like him did.

[DPG21920]

Also saying KG doesn't play down low is retarded. Yeah he settles for mid range jumpers too much but gets plenty of inside points, he's also not scared of contact like pussnani.

Saying Bargnani does not go to the rim as much as KG is retarded. KG is a jump shooting pussy who hates contact and is not clutch.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

WTF does that matter. By your weak ass standards, Jefferson is a beast and his down low game combined with Paul Pierce/Antonie Walker/Perkins/Delonte West should have been enough to beast.

Point out where I said all down low big men are better than all outside big men? I don't recall saying that.

[Obstructed_View]

Because he had a bad second year and he is only in his 3rd season. They are creeping up just like other players like him did.

Sorry, see my edit. I mean the other four months of the season. Seems kind of odd.

[DPG21920]

You are way dumber than I thought with your logic DOK, at least on this topic. You are being blinded by your hate for no reason trying to bash Bargs for no good reason.

His numbers are pretty good and moving up. He is paid about the same as a guy who puts up similar numbers as him in Okur, even though Bargs is ahead of Okur at the same point of their careers.

You talk about his shooting percentage as a big man, but do not understand how to evaluate things evenly (that is why I mentioned true shooting percentage in which Bargs is better than Aldridge).


Just general douchey hate for a guy who signed a contract. But par for the course from you with how you constantly bag on players (entire suns team).

So if Al never starts on a championship team does that mean you were completely wrong? Or is it *gasp* sometimes great players or good players or different players do not win rings???

Does not mean a perimeter big that is paid on the high end of fair with regards to players like him suck.

You can debate the timing of the contract, but it is not nearly bad enough of a contract to bitch about the number imo.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You never answered my question because you know you're putting words in my mouth.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Just general douchey hate for a guy who signed a contract. But par for the course from you with how you constantly bag on players (entire suns team).



Forgive me for being dissatisfied with a team that is lazy and doesn't make the playoffs.

[DPG21920]

Big men that play inside have certainly been on a lot more championship teams than big men who play outside.


Okur has a championship son.


And if I were building a team today, I'd take Al Jefferson over Dirk.


And thank for only helping my point. A large reason Dallas couldn't finish Miami off is because Dallas had no one who could get high percentage shots in the paint.


Point out where I said all down low big men are better than all outside big men? I don't recall saying that.

You were implying it. You said the "championship" thing then brought up Dirk. Then said you would take Dirk over Al, knowing full well that is only because of age.

If they were both in their primes, Dirk murders Al. Bargs in not as good as Dirk and will never be. But Dirk makes 21M, Bargs makes 10M. He is certainly not half the player Dirk is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So if Al never starts on a championship team does that mean you were completely wrong?


Here you go again putting words in my mouth, when did I ever say anything about Al starting on a championship team. Just cause I said player A won't start on a championship team, it doesn't mean I said player B will start on a championship team.

Also, you're overvaluing stats a lot here.

[DPG21920]

Sorry, see my edit. I mean the other four months of the season. Seems kind of odd.

It was only for the first 3 months of the season. Like I said, he really had a poor year after a very promising rookie year capped off by a clutch playoffs from him.

So the coach was kind of iffy, because everyone was breathing down their necks about the "bust" label.

But once he proved himself and (the Oneal trade pushed him to the bench), he got the minutes and played well.

He should get the minutes next year, we will see how he does. Right now the small pattern is 1 good year, 1 bad. Lets see how he responds to the managements faith.

[DPG21920]

Forgive me for being dissatisfied with a team that is lazy and doesn't make the playoffs.

You douched on Nash when they were in the playoffs and he was winning MVP's.

You just hate players sometimes and go over board with half-truth/hate arguments.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You were implying it. You said the "championship" thing then brought up Dirk. Then said you would take Dirk over Al, knowing full well that is only because of age.

If they were both in their primes, Dirk murders Al. Bargs in not as good as Dirk and will never be. But Dirk makes 21M, Bargs makes 10M. He is certainly not half the player Dirk is.

You brought up Dirk.

And it's crazy you know what I was thinking, are you a mind reader or something? I never said anything close to the absolute, "All bigs who play inside are better than big who play outside," so stop telling me I did. It's pretty easy to argue with someone when you control what they're saying.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You douched on Nash when they were in the playoffs and he was winning MVP's.


Really? I didn't know that? Thanks for telling me. Now can you show me the proof backing that up?

[DPG21920]

Here you go again putting words in my mouth, when did I ever say anything about Al starting on a championship team. Just cause I said player A won't start on a championship team, it doesn't mean I said player B will start on a championship team.

Also, you're overvaluing stats a lot here.

How so? I am going simply by what the league is paying people for certain categories of players.

I am not saying Bargs will be the best player ever or Tim Duncan. I am saying that for a guy who could very well average 20 PPG and that is young and 7 feet tall, he is paid within the range of fairly. That is it. I am not saying that the NBA is correct for valuing stats (20PPG), but that is the way it is.

Just like everyone knows you have to over pay bigs because there are so few of them. Just how it works. But there are even fewer bigs that can score like Bargs at his age.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Being 7 feet tall accomplishes nothing when you average 5.4 rebounds per game.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm still waiting to hear how DPG knows that I badmouthed Nash from 2005-2007 just as much as I do now.

[DPG21920]

Really? I didn't know that? Thanks for telling me. Now can you show me the proof backing that up?

You never said you hated Nash and that the MVP's were bull shit? You never said he was overrated and the team would never win rings? Same with Coach Dan?

You were bashing the team and players even when they made the playoffs, were you not? So it is clearly not about you being upset about missing the playoffs.

You hated many of the players and the system, even when they were always in the playoffs for the most part?

[DPG21920]

I'm still waiting to hear how DPG knows that I badmouthed Nash from 2005-2007 just as much as I do now.

I did not say you bashed them in 2005-2007, or at least that is not what I meant and you know it.

I said you always bash them now and bring up that time frame. You might not have done it then, but you do it now.

[DPG21920]

Being 7 feet tall accomplishes nothing when you average 5.4 rebounds per game.

Just like Aldridge shoots a better "percentage" than Bargs....unless you look at the True Shooting Percentage.

His rebounding is poor, no one is arguing that. But he is still not over paid.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nope, I never said I hated him back then. I've said many times that LOOKING BACK ON IT, that team wasn't very good. At the time I liked Nash and everyone on the team. Once the 2007 season ended was when I became negative about the team, and even then this season was the only season I started to hate Nash.

[DPG21920]

Nope, I never said I hated him back then. I've said many times that LOOKING BACK ON IT, that team wasn't very good. At the time I liked Nash and everyone on the team. Once the 2007 season ended was when I became negative about the team, and even then this season was the only season I started to hate Nash.

My point exactly. Now that you hate Nash, you bash everything about him including past teams that were in the playoffs. You just like to bash players. But at least make sense when you do it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I said you always bash them now and bring up that time frame. You might not have done it then, but you do it now.


Only reason I do that now is because I'm tired of Nash getting away with how he acted this season just because of 2005-2007. It's in the past.

If I built someone a house in 2007 and then burnt their house down, building them a house wouldn't make it OK that I burnt their house down.

[DPG21920]

Ok...

Point is that imo, based on what I have seen, that he is not over paid. He is in the range (although the high end of the range) of fair pay with a guy with his size and tools and current production.

The only way he is over paid imo, is if he takes a step backwards. If that happens, you bet your ass I will say I was wrong about him. But based on today's production, it is a fair contract. If he get more production, then it is a very good contract.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My point exactly. Now that you hate Nash, you bash everything about him including past teams that were in the playoffs. You just like to bash players. But at least make sense when you do it.

Nothing I say about Nash isn't true. Also, I've never said his MVP's are overrated, never.

[ffadicted]

I'd give him 7.5 per year max

[DPG21920]

Bump:

First game, not bad:

11-15 FG's, 4-4 FT's, 28 PTS, 5 REB, 1 STL, 1 BLK

[ploto]

Bump:

First game, not bad:

11-15 FG's, 4-4 FT's, 28 PTS, 5 REB, 1 STL, 1 BLK

Not bad? He played great!

[DPG21920]

So far, so good:

Tonight he had: 50% FG, 80% FT, 22 PTS, 12 REB, 2 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 2 TO's

His average so far (not including tonights game):

59% FG, 61% 3PT, Perfect from the line, 22 PPG, 5 REBS, 1 AST, .7 BLKS, 2.67 TO's


His rebounding still sucks and he certainly needs to pick up his BLKs and cut down the TO's, but overall good start. Given, it is only 4 games in, but he is only playing 32 MPG. That is not even a minute increase from last year, but a 7 PPG jump.

[Chieflion]

Bargnani is improving. He should be well worth that contract now.

[Darthkiller]

So far, so good:

Tonight he had: 50% FG, 80% FT, 22 PTS, 12 REB, 2 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 2 TO's

His average so far (not including tonights game):

59% FG, 61% 3PT, Perfect from the line, 22 PPG, 5 REBS, 1 AST, .7 BLKS, 2.67 TO's


His rebounding still sucks and he certainly needs to pick up his BLKs and cut down the TO's, but overall good start. Given, it is only 4 games in, but he is only playing 32 MPG. That is not even a minute increase from last year, but a 7 PPG jump.

all star this year

[DPG21920]

It is still way too early to say anything definitive. But so far he is off to a promising start. I wish he would work on some of his weaknesses, but the fact his strengths are showing more is a good thing.

He is super efficient right now. I wonder if they plan to play him only 32 MPG all year? If so, he won't score 20 PPG imo.

[DPG21920]

He is playing 34 MPG now, which is not very many minutes, but he is now as I said a legit 20 PPG scorer. He is shooting 47% from the field and he is still scoring 20+ PPG with his 3PT shooting being below his average.

His rebounding is still extremely poor and his team sucks, but he is a solid offensive player.

[SpursDynasty85]

Nothing really funny about that news... 8-10 mill is about his range...

[DPG21920]

I agree. I'll put all the previous hyperbole aside and adopt the wait-and-see approach. It seems like too much of a risk, since they could have waited, at very least, several months to re-sign him. He's a good player but I must admit I was shocked when I heard about the deal. I certainly wouldn't be annoyed if he scored 21 points per game next year and made you look like a genius.

If he does, you need to make sure to bump this thread.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

is there a worse rebounding big in the league? i don't think so, not at 34 mpg anyways

[DPG21920]

:lol Probably not, but that was never the argument. If he was a good rebounder, he would be making 15M+

[8FOR!3]

There's a lot of young guys they can build around in Toronto now.

Andrea Bargnani, DeMar DeRozan, Ed Davis, Jerryd Bayless, etc.

[lefty]

He is playing 34 MPG now, which is not very many minutes, but he is now as I said a legit 20 PPG scorer. He is shooting 47% from the field and he is still scoring 20+ PPG with his 3PT shooting being below his average.

His rebounding is still extremely poor and his team sucks, but he is a solid offensive player.
Nice bump :tu