T.Boone Pickens has lost his wind.

[01.20.09]

Pickens backs off wind farm project: report

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090708/bs_nm/us_pickens_windfarm

(Reuters) – Texas oil billionaire T. Boone Pickens has called off plans to build the world's biggest wind farm in the Texas Panhandle, the Wall Street Journal said.

Pickens said the wind farm project was scuttled partly because of the lack of adequate transmission lines to carry the electricity from remote locations to cities, according to the paper.

The oil tycoon had hoped to build new transmission lines but could not secure financing, the paper said.

Pickens plans to find new homes for the turbines that he already agreed to buy, the paper said, citing a statement.

Pickens could not immediately be reached for comment by Reuters.

(Reporting by Ajay Kamalakaran in Bangalore; Editing by Greg Mahlich)



There she blows!! :wakeup

[Winehole23]

T Boone Pickens can't get financing? Hmm...

[DarrinS]

T Boone Pickens can't get financing? Hmm...


Conspiracy? If anything can get financing NOW, you'd think it would be alternative energy.

[Winehole23]

Conspiracy? If anything can get financing NOW, you'd think it would be alternative energy. More like the lack of one. The banks can't be forced to lend money they don't have or won't lend.

[Winehole23]

Or maybe Pickens got cold feet.

[Drachen]

That Blows!

[sam1617]

Oh well. I vote we just build nuclear power plants instead. Screw wind power.

And I like the pun Drachen.

[johnsmith]

Pickens will leverage someone or some organization to partner with him around here to secure the financing. Dude didn't get rich by spending all his money.

[Wild Cobra]

Conspiracy? If anything can get financing NOW, you'd think it would be alternative energy.
The problem is that the only "alternate energy" we seem to have is actually "supplemental energy" because it cannot be relied on. Still have to have coal, oil, or gas plants running at idle or better in "hot standby" to produce electricity as the wind weakens.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i'll be interested in how this story turns out. i just can't whole-heartedly believe he can't get financing........

[RandomGuy]

Oh well. I vote we just build nuclear power plants instead. Screw wind power.

And I like the pun Drachen.

Because nuclear power plants have proven so much more cost-effective and cheap compared to other forms of power... :lmao


You do realize that NO nuclear power plant in the US has actually been built for less then about 4 times its original estimated cost, right?

(ok, a couple were actually built at only 2 or 3 times the original projected cost, but most of them went a *bit* overbudget)

[johnsmith]

i'll be interested in how this story turns out. i just can't whole-heartedly believe he can't get financing........

I would normally agree, but these things are fucking expensive as shit, especially when folks are doubting the efficiency.

[johnsmith]

Because nuclear power plants have proven so much more cost-effective and cheap compared to other forms of power... :lmao


You do realize that NO nuclear power plant in the US has actually been built for less then about 4 times its original estimated cost, right?

I refuse to get into the power plant discussion with you again, but one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile. Not to mention the substation cost, and that folks aren't jumping through hoops to buy the energy right now anyway.

[RandomGuy]

one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile.

Source?

[johnsmith]

Source?

I helped estimate one. My source is me.

[DarrinS]

Wind and solar are highly efficient and require very little land use.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I would normally agree, but these things are fucking expensive as shit, especially when folks are doubting the efficiency.
i thought everything that came out of obama's mouth is from The Burning Bush.

[RandomGuy]

Repectively, I think your figure is for transmission capacity for an entire farm (large group), and not a single generator.

I would also note that the same costs would have to be borne for any new power plant.

Your thing is more that the transmission would have to be alot farther and generall incur more costs in building the transmission lines than nukes, which could conceivedly be built a bit closer.

On the whole, I still prefer wind to nuclear, simply because the costs are waaay more predictable.

If one could overcome NIMBY and standardize nuke designs where they wouldn't need to use quite so much water, and not have a lot of fuel/waste shipments running around as security risks, I woudl be all for nukes, as a safe, cost-effective form of energy.

[DarrinS]

The manufacture and transportation of wind farms and solar farms has zero carbon footprint.

[DarrinS]

Ever seen a tractor trailor hauling ONE windmill blade? Nice.

[sam1617]

Because nuclear power plants have proven so much more cost-effective and cheap compared to other forms of power... :lmao


You do realize that NO nuclear power plant in the US has actually been built for less then about 4 times its original estimated cost, right?

Why is that?

From what I understand, the cost overruns were due to design changes during construction, screwy operating licensing causing long delays, and each plant having its own design, causing them to have to be built with custom parts.

If those issues were/are addressed, why would nuclear power be unfeasible?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Ever seen a tractor trailor hauling ONE windmill blade? Nice.
yep. those blades are huge.

[johnsmith]

Repectively, I think your figure is for transmission capacity for an entire farm (large group), and not a single generator.

I would also note that the same costs would have to be borne for any new power plant.

Your thing is more that the transmission would have to be alot farther and generall incur more costs in building the transmission lines than nukes, which could conceivedly be built a bit closer.

On the whole, I still prefer wind to nuclear, simply because the costs are waaay more predictable.

If one could overcome NIMBY and standardize nuke designs where they wouldn't need to use quite so much water, and not have a lot of fuel/waste shipments running around as security risks, I woudl be all for nukes, as a safe, cost-effective form of energy.

I no longer argue the necessity for wind turbines as they are making me a shit pot of money, so I don't care one way or the other if they work.

Having said that, a nuclear plant would cost ROUGHLY 5 billion or so? So what's that compared to the 750 billion we are throwing at stuff on a regular basis.

God knows I'm happy that we will finally have a distinguishable border seperating Mexico and the United States through the gulf of Mexico like the last "stimulus" bill had in it, but that money could have been used to pay a years salary for 9 or 10 ironworkers building a power plant.............I'm just sayin.

[johnsmith]

Why is that?

From what I understand, the cost overruns were due to design changes during construction, screwy operating licensing causing long delays, and each plant having its own design, causing them to have to be built with custom parts.

If those issues were/are addressed, why would nuclear power be unfeasible?

Not to mention that due to environmental restrictions and regulation, it takes almost two years longer to build one in the US then it would in many overseas countries.

Labor is expensive these days.........bitches got to get paid.

[DarrinS]

If solar and wind farms are quadrupled, maybe they'll show up as a somewhat thicker line on this pie chart.

http://www.cleanandgreenplanet.com/images/RenewableEnergyPieChart.JPG

[RandomGuy]

If solar and wind farms are quadrupled, maybe they'll show up as a somewhat thicker line on this pie chart.

http://www.cleanandgreenplanet.com/images/RenewableEnergyPieChart.JPG

It will happen as petroleum, gas, and coal face depletion, making them comparatively more expensive, even without cap and trade, but I have said that before.

Simple economics.

[Wild Cobra]

one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile.Source?Why do you need that sourced? That seems real cheap to me. Hell, three miles of wire alone isn't cheap, then how many towers to support it, and how many manhours?

[Wild Cobra]

Ever seen a tractor trailor hauling ONE windmill blade? Nice.
From First blades for Kibby Wind Power project pass through Belfast (http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/107665.html?print=1):

http://bdnimages.sprintout.com/uploads/large/1244160730_06d5.jpg

[coyotes_geek]

FWIW........

In April 2008, ERCOT published it's Competitive Renewable Energy Zones Transmission Optimization Study, which provides transmission plans for four scenarios of wind generation. The estimated cost of building new transmission lines to transport wind generated electricity from West and Northwest Texas to urban areas will cost about $1.5 million per mile.
http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_wind-transmission.htm

[Wild Cobra]

Why is that?

From what I understand, the cost overruns were due to design changes during construction, screwy operating licensing causing long delays, and each plant having its own design, causing them to have to be built with custom parts.

If those issues were/are addressed, why would nuclear power be unfeasible?
Don't forget defending against environmentalists lawsuits.

[Wild Cobra]

God knows I'm happy that we will finally have a distinguishable border seperating Mexico and the United States through the gulf of Mexico like the last "stimulus" bill had in it, but that money could have been used to pay a years salary for 9 or 10 ironworkers building a power plant.............I'm just sayin.
Could you imagine the quality of fence and security we could have if we put people to work building a nice border fence?

If it is deemed we must bail out this economy and create jobs, what better way than border security and power generation?

[Wild Cobra]

If solar and wind farms are quadrupled, maybe they'll show up as a somewhat thicker line on this pie chart.

http://www.cleanandgreenplanet.com/images/RenewableEnergyPieChart.JPG
I like their chart. I have to learn how to do that.

And the chart I generated in a different thread was for electricity alone. Nobody seems to care about how much land I pointed out it would take:

How many square miles of solar and wind farms will we have to make to make a dent in energy production?

Going by the latest wiki entry on USA power usage, our current electrical production is 1,075,174 megawatts. Now make enough solar and wind power so that to 25% is solar and 25% is wind, we would have to use 22635.6 sq miles of land. That would be a rectangle 100 miles wide by 226 miles long. That's almost as large as the state of West Virginia which is 24230 sq. miles.

Please tell us. With your expert opinion, what energy would you like to use to replace CO2 emitting energy?

I took the wiki numbers and generated this in excel:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Global%20Warming/percentageofuselectricalproduction.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

about $1.5 million per mile.
I knew immediately the $300k was a low number.

Thanx.

[Winehole23]

You were acting like it was a bid, WC.

[Winehole23]

Is johnsmith a nuclear contractor? :lol

[johnsmith]

A single line being supported by a single wood pole with a T-bar carrying 115 - 132 KV for a span just shy of 28 miles runs you around $3 - 400,000. The tie in into a transformer or substation runs you upwards of $2,000,000.

The overall cost for a wind farm nowdays averages you about $2,000,000 per megawatt.

If you get more KV, it goes up. The above information is fact, based on johnsmith as the source.



Winehole, just keep sending your little smilies, I'll keep making money off your green ass.

[johnsmith]

I knew immediately the $300k was a low number.

Thanx.

Essentially, Coyotes post was an average, I'm bidding this bitch.

[Winehole23]

That flag is, uh, suggestive, WC.

[Winehole23]

What is it?

[Wild Cobra]

That flag is, uh, suggestive, WC.


What is it?

The flag for the city of Portland. Good 'ol fascist People's Republic of Portland, also known as the capitol of the North Left coast.

[Winehole23]

Wow.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow.
Wiki: Portland, Oregon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon)

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/Misc/wikiportland.jpg

LOL...

I forgot about "Little Beirut."

[Winehole23]

How does that derive?

[SonOfAGun]

It will happen as petroleum, gas, and coal face depletion, making them comparatively more expensive, even without cap and trade, but I have said that before.

Simple economics.

1970s forum

[Wild Cobra]

How does that derive?
Little Beruit?

I forget. Probably the way the police abuse their power. They kill at will, with the flimsiest of cause.

[Winehole23]

Little Beruit?

I forget. Probably the way the police abuse their power. They kill at will, with the flimsiest of cause.Killer cops?

[Winehole23]

Ay, carnal.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's just one of several examples:

Kendra James murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendra_James)

The testimony did not match the evidence that exonerated the officer, and she was no threat. Just a scared girl. The warrant wiki mentions was over a misdemeanor.

The Kendra James trial: Was justice served? (http://www.theportlandalliance.org/2005/aug/kendratrial.htm)

Excessive police force has been the commonplace in the area. This guy was just burned, in severe pain, and they shot him:

$1 million settlement reached in 2005 shooting near Sandy (http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2009/07/sandy_settles_kaady_case_for_1.html)

I could go on and on about police shooting. I think that makes the point.

[Bartleby]

Little Beruit?

I forget. Probably the way the police abuse their power. They kill at will, with the flimsiest of cause.

Actually:

"PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The nickname "Little Beirut" has stuck to Portland since it was first coined by the staff of former President Bush after violent protests during his visits to Oregon in the early 1990s, and the reputation remains strong as his son prepares to return more than a decade later."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/966872/posts

[RandomGuy]

Why do you need that sourced? That seems real cheap to me. Hell, three miles of wire alone isn't cheap, then how many towers to support it, and how many manhours?

"one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile. "

Seems to me to be a specific fact, such things are easily sourced.

If johnsmith says it is from personal knowledge of a bid he was involved with, that is good enough for me.

I can take people at their word, especially since I have no reason to doubt them.

[Nbadan]

Wind farms will continue to grow without Pickens....anyone driven through west TX recently?

[sam1617]

"one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile. "

Seems to me to be a specific fact, such things are easily sourced.

If johnsmith says it is from personal knowledge of a bid he was involved with, that is good enough for me.

I can take people at their word, especially since I have no reason to doubt them.

In that case, there is a new law that says that anyone who posts on Spurstalk and has the username RandomGuy has to give me a million dollars :downspin:

You have no reason to doubt me!

[Wild Cobra]

"one line off of a wind tubine costs $300,000 per mile. "

Well, if someone is only using "one line" meaning "one wire" then it should not be acceptable practices. That means you are using a ground return also. You still need two wires for a proper transfer. Three phase is so much better, and only uses three wires. Look at any power pole. Always three wires, right?

Maybe he meant three wires at $300,000 each. Notice I did specify for the one mile in my earlier post, three miles of wire.

Electrical transmission of AC uses three phase power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_phase_power). You have three phases, separated by 120 degrees, which cancels out magnetic losses.

If someone is contracting only one phase for an electrical grid, especially a green electrical grid, that is absolutely laughable.


Three-phase electric power is a common method of alternating-current electric power transmission. It is a type of polyphase system, and is the most common method used by electric power distribution grids worldwide to distribute power. It is also used to power large motors and other large loads. A three-phase system is generally more economical than others because it uses less conductor material to transmit electric power than equivalent single-phase or two-phase systems at the same voltage.

In a three-phase system, three circuit conductors carry three alternating currents (of the same frequency) which reach their instantaneous peak values at different times. Taking one conductor as the reference, the other two currents are delayed in time by one-third and two-thirds of one cycle of the electrical current. This delay between "phases" has the effect of giving constant power transfer over each cycle of the current, and also makes it possible to produce a rotating magnetic field in an electric motor.

[Winehole23]

Actually:

"PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The nickname "Little Beirut" has stuck to Portland since it was first coined by the staff of former President Bush after violent protests during his visits to Oregon in the early 1990s, and the reputation remains strong as his son prepares to return more than a decade later."Seeds of the anti-NWO cluster, facing down the imperial stormtroopers...of Portland/Oregon? :lol