McDyess vs lakers last season

[lefty]

He played 1 game vs Lakers last season (he was injured for the other one I think, the one they actually won :lol )

36 minutes
14 pts
12 rbds (2 offensive)
1 ass
1 st
1 blk
2 to's
4 pf

[poeticism707]

He played 1 game vs Lakers last season (he was injured for the other one I think, the one they actually won :lol )

36 minutes
14 pts
12 rbds (2 offensive)
1 ass
1 st
1 blk
2 to's
4 pf
:lol:lol:lol

Dice isn't afraid of the Lakers!!!

But they sure are afraid of him...

[objective]

i don't think he was injured, it might have been when he was forced to sit out before he could re-sign with the team.

[Libri]

I like the number of those rebounds.

[Buddy Holly]

He played 1 game vs Lakers last season (he was injured for the other one I think, the one they actually won :lol )

36 minutes
14 pts
12 rbds (2 offensive)
1 ass
1 st
1 blk
2 to's
4 pf

Only 1 ass? Weak... :downspin:

[rayray2k8]

No way to tell how he'll do under a new system.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

i don't think he was injured, it might have been when he was forced to sit out before he could re-sign with the team.

:tu

[Blackjack]

i don't think he was injured, it might have been when he was forced to sit out before he could re-sign with the team.

Actually, I think they only played once.

I'm not totally sure but I checked 'Sheed's stats and there was also only one game. Could've just been a quirk in the schedule, especially since they only would've played twice at the most anyway, but 'Sheed and 'Dyess did have their way in that game.

[tmtcsc]

More importantly, how did Pau's numbers look vs Dice ?

[phyzik]

More importantly, how did Pau's numbers look vs Dice ?

Pau Gasol

Min. = 40:51
FGM/A = 5/10
points = 12
Freethrows = 2/2
rebounds = 11 (all defensive)
assists = 3

[bdubya]

More importantly, how did Pau's numbers look vs Dice ?

40 minutes, 12 pts, 11 reb. Some of that may have been against Kwame, though. Lakers won 92-77. Sheed and Rip were both injured for that game.

[Brazil]

Pau Gasol

Min. = 40:51
FGM/A = 5/10
points = 12
Freethrows = 2/2
rebounds = 11 (all defensive)
assists = 3

not bad not bad

[DrHouse]

:lmao regular season

[Chieflion]

:lmao regular season
Insecure douche.

[lurker23]

Actually, I think they only played once.

I'm not totally sure but I checked 'Sheed's stats and there was also only one game. Could've just been a quirk in the schedule, especially since they only would've played twice at the most anyway, but 'Sheed and 'Dyess did have their way in that game.

NBA teams always play teams from the opposing conference twice, one home, one away. Teams from your own conference you play either 3 or 4 times, depending on the year.

[Interrohater]

Did Dr. House ever get with Cutty? (Cuddy?) She's hot

Also, the Dr. House on this forum sucks.

[lurker23]

McDyess didn't play in Detroit's November 14th game against the Lakers; he was traded to the Nuggets on 11/3, waived on 11/10, and resigned by the Lakers on 12/9. Sheed didn't play in Detroit's March 26th game against the Lakers; he did not dress due to a left calf strain.

[lefty]

McDyess didn't play in Detroit's November 14th game against the Lakers; he was traded to the Nuggets on 11/3, waived on 11/10, and resigned by the Lakers on 12/9. Sheed didn't play in Detroit's March 26th game against the Lakers; he did not dress due to a left calf strain.
:wtf

[Blackjack]

McDyess didn't play in Detroit's November 14th game against the Lakers; he was traded to the Nuggets on 11/3, waived on 11/10, and resigned by the Lakers on 12/9. Sheed didn't play in Detroit's March 26th game against the Lakers; he did not dress due to a left calf strain.

:tu

And, that would make sense.

There's been a couple of quirks in the schedule over the las couple of years, teams playing 2 or 3 times instead of 4 inside their conference, so I thought that might have been the case.(playing once instead of twice)

[SA210]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.

[z0sa]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.

Artest sucks.

[lefty]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.
Bruce will be back


I'm 99.9% sure

Damn you 0.1%

[mytespurs]

No way to tell how he'll do under a new system.

Good point. Nice stats from last season but I don't know that it can really tell how he'll do against the lakers as a Spur this season. I just hope his presence helps the team. :)

[lefty]

No way to tell how he'll do under a new system.
Pop will play him as a backup PG

[lurker23]

:wtf

:lol Sorry about that. So worried about getting the dates right, got the team wrong. You knew what I meant, though. :)

[lefty]

:lol Sorry about that. So worried about getting the dates right, got the team wrong. You knew what I meant, though. :)


Of course I did :toast

[lurker23]

:tu

And, that would make sense.

There's been a couple of quirks in the schedule over the las couple of years, teams playing 2 or 3 times instead of 4 inside their conference, so I thought that might have been the case.(playing once instead of twice)

Yeah, it used to be that teams in the Western Conference (where there were 14 teams) played everyone in the East twice and everyone in the West four times, and the schedule worked out very nicely.

With the addition of the Charlotte Bobcats, the moving of the Hornets from the East to the West, and the realignment of divisions, both conferences now have 15 teams. This means that teams play everyone in the other conference twice, and then teams in their own conference 3 or 4 times. The teams that you only play 3 times is on a rotating basis, and is never teams in your own division.

As a side personal note, the Spurs only played the Jazz 3 times this past year, with the game that was subtracted being a Jazz home game; quite disappointing that the Spurs only came here once. I'm glad that it's guaranteed that they'll come here twice this year. :)

[SA210]

Bruce will be back


I'm 99.9% sure

Damn you 0.1%

I sure hope so, cuz I think if he doesn't come back, our new signings don't matter if we have to play the Lakers. I would have to predict that we'd have one of those Mavs or Suns seasons from a few years ago, great the whole season, but then we'll get unraveled by the Lakers in the post season, all cuz Bruce wasn't here to cool down Kobe.

Another horrible scenario would be if Lakers got him. Then Bruce would shutdown Manu or Jefferson too while Kobe gets what he wants. Phil would love this.

[K-State Spur]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.

artest guards himself half the time by chucking jumpers when he has a mismatch in his favor on the low block.

[SA210]

artest guards himself half the time by chucking jumpers when he has a mismatch in his favor on the low block.

That leaves Kobe. Mark my words.

[coopdogg3]

That leaves Kobe. Mark my words.


Consider them marked.

[poeticism707]

artest guards himself half the time by chucking jumpers when he has a mismatch in his favor on the low block.
:lol

[Knoxxx]

If MCDyess is able to cancel out Gasol, we will crush the Lakers.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think people realize that Tony Parker has become a superstar this season in regards to his scoring..

yes, we'll have a tough time covering Kobe by putting RJ on him..but it won't be nearly as bad as Derek Fisher guarding Tony Parker..that's going to be disgusting..

also, Kobe doesn't play defense..I know people think he does due to his all-NBA selections, but he hasn't played defense since the early 2000s..if he has to cover Manu, which he will, he's going to get torched..did everybody miss Manu's first game vs. LA this year, where he was fresh from coming back off the injury?..he completely torched the Lakers defense, both Ariza and Kobe..anything to take Kobe's energy away is good..

Kobe also can't be stopped by one guy, it takes a team effort..so our team D has to do it..if our team D isn't great, we won't be winning a title anyways, so it doesn't matter what Kobe does..

LOL @ Artest..he's lymphoma..he can have the ball all game, anything that takes away from Kobe or Gasol is cool with me..

[poeticism707]

I don't think people realize that Tony Parker has become a superstar this season in regards to his scoring..

yes, we'll have a tough time covering Kobe by putting RJ on him..but it won't be nearly as bad as Derek Fisher guarding Tony Parker..that's going to be disgusting..

also, Kobe doesn't play defense..I know people think he does due to his all-NBA selections, but he hasn't played defense since the early 2000s..if he has to cover Manu, which he will, he's going to get torched..did everybody miss Manu's first game vs. LA this year, where he was fresh from coming back off the injury?..he completely torched the Lakers defense, both Ariza and Kobe..anything to take Kobe's energy away is good..

Kobe also can't be stopped by one guy, it takes a team effort..so our team D has to do it..if our team D isn't great, we won't be winning a title anyways, so it doesn't matter what Kobe does..

LOL @ Artest..he's lymphoma..he can have the ball all game, anything that takes away from Kobe or Gasol is cool with me..
:flag::flag::flag:

[DrHouse]

You don't have anyone to guard Kobe or Artest. You have nobody to realistically stop Odom, Gasol, and Bynum outside of Duncan.

No defense, no rebounding, no rings. The game is won in the paint, and the Lakers completely outclass the Spurs in that regard.

Parker has never been the difference against the Lakers. We couldn't guard him in '04 or '08 and that didn't stop LA from winning both times.

[poeticism707]

You don't have anyone to guard Kobe or Artest. You have nobody to realistically stop Odom, Gasol, and Bynum outside of Duncan.

No defense, no rebounding, no rings. The game is won in the paint, and the Lakers completely outclass the Spurs in that regard.

Parker has never been the difference against the Lakers. We couldn't guard him in '04 or '08 and that didn't stop LA from winning both times.
:nope

[Dunc n Dave]

You don't have anyone to guard Kobe or Artest. You have nobody to realistically stop Odom, Gasol, and Bynum outside of Duncan.

No defense, no rebounding, no rings. The game is won in the paint, and the Lakers completely outclass the Spurs in that regard.

Parker has never been the difference against the Lakers. We couldn't guard him in '04 or '08 and that didn't stop LA from winning both times.

Actually the Lakers DID guard him in 04 after the first 2 games by forcing him to shoot jumpers by clogging the lane and sagging off him by going under screens. He's become a great jump shooter now, so that strategy is out the window.

The Lakers also used to let Kobe rest on D by putting him on Bowen and having him double the post in the 4th when Phil would finally decide to double Duncan. Can't do that now either with Jefferson out there. Status quo for the Lakers defensive gameplan won't cut it against the Spurs this year.

[DrHouse]

Actually the Lakers DID guard him in 04 after the first 2 games by forcing him to shoot jumpers by clogging the lane and sagging off him by going under screens. He's become a great jump shooter now, so that strategy is out the window.

The Lakers also used to let Kobe rest on D by putting him on Bowen and having him double the post in the 4th when Phil would finally decide to double Duncan. Can't do that now either with Jefferson out there. Status quo for the Lakers defensive gameplan won't cut it against the Spurs this year.

The Lakers couldn't stop Parker in '08 and still won that series despite not even having Bynum or Ariza available to play (2 starting players).

Until I see some legitimate help alongside Duncan the Spurs have no realistic chance. You aren't stopping our 3 7fters from dominating the paint and scoring easy buckets with the front court you have now. The only way to stop the Lakers is to do what BOS did, which is insanely hard to replicate.

Play Kobe with some excellent defenders (i.e. Posey) that can force him into tough shots. Clog up the paint with some scary good interior defenders (Garnett and Perkins). They took all of the Laker's weapons away from them with their defense. Can the Spurs do the same with what they have? Not likely.

And don't think you're going to beat LA in a shootout. Orlando found out the hard way. Their offense can't be matched in a 7 game series, the only way to win is on the defensive end.

[lefty]

You don't have anyone to guard Kobe or Artest. You have nobody to realistically stop Odom, Gasol, and Bynum outside of Duncan.

No defense, no rebounding, no rings. The game is won in the paint, and the Lakers completely outclass the Spurs in that regard.

Parker has never been the difference against the Lakers. We couldn't guard him in '04 or '08 and that didn't stop LA from winning both times.

You forgot to mention: no help from Stern

[poeticism707]

You forgot to mention: no help from Stern
:hat

[SA210]

You don't have anyone to guard Kobe or Artest.


This is true. We need Bruce back, or these signings mean nothing.

[poeticism707]

This is true. We need Bruce back, or these signings mean nothing.

It won't matter. Put an average defender on Bryant, and he'll score a bunch. Put an above average defender on him, and he'll make it up in questionable free throws.

I say let him torch whoever is guarding him, don't double, don't rotate:

MAKE HIM BEAT THE ENTIRE SPURS TEAM.

He's not dropping 100 points.

[Knoxxx]

Let's not be pussies here. Paker-Manu-RJ will more than hold their own against Fisher-Bryant-Artest on offense. Artest mostly just chucks up bad shots anyway. Fisher, he'll hit a few but as mentioned above absolutely no match for TP.

Suddenly we seem to have much more front-court depth than the Lakers too. If they can't resign Odom (for what, $20 million more luxury tax), the losses of Ariza and Odom actually make them worse net of the Artest signing, not better.

[poeticism707]

Let's not be pussies here. Paker-Manu-RJ will more than hold their own against Fisher-Bryant-Artest on offense. Artest mostly just chucks up bad shots anyway. Fisher, he'll hit a few but as mentioned above absolutely no match for TP.

Suddenly we seem to have much more front-court depth than the Lakers too. If they can't resign Odom (for what, $20 million more luxury tax), the losses of Ariza and Odom actually make them worse net of the Artest signing, not better.

Yep. The Spurs have to play very good defense on the Lakers, but have to have great offense.

Finally they have the tools to do so.

Lest we forget in 2008 WCF, the offense failed, not the defense.

[21_Blessings]

Odom has no where to go besides LA. Stop dreaming.

Paker, Manu, RJ with Hill, Finley, Mason off the bench? :lmao :lmao :lmao

Easily one of the worst perimeter defenses in the entire NBA. The corpse of Bruce Bowen isn't going to save you either. Kobe made Bruce his bitch in 2008, it would be even worse next year.

[poeticism707]

Odom has no where to go besides LA. Stop dreaming.

Paker, Manu, RJ with Hill, Finley, Mason off the bench? :lmao :lmao :lmao

Easily one of the worst perimeter defenses in the entire NBA. The corpse of Bruce Bowen isn't going to save you either.
:wakeup

[lefty]

Odom has no where to go besides LA. Stop dreaming.

Paker, Manu, RJ with Hill, Finley, Mason off the bench? :lmao :lmao :lmao

Easily one of the worst perimeter defenses in the entire NBA. The corpse of Bruce Bowen isn't going to save you either. Kobe made Bruce his bitch in 2008, it would be even worse next year.

If you take your gay purple and gold glasses off, you will see that Manu, RJ and Hill are excellent defensive players

But all bandwagon Laker fans like you are dummies :rollin

And I wouldn't brag too much about 2008 if I were you

[poeticism707]

If you take your gay purple and gold glasses off, you will see that Manu, RJ and Hill are excellent defensive players

But all bandwagon Laker fans like you are dummies :rollin

And I wouldn't brag too much about 2008 if I were you
:lol

[21_Blessings]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.

[lefty]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.
What ?

Damn you really are retarded

[ElNono]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.

I disagree. Manu is not Bowen, but he can more than hold his own.

[lefty]

Defensive Rating
2003-04 NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2004_leaders.html) 93.1 (6)
2004-05 NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005_leaders.html) 97.5 (6)
2005-06 NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006_leaders.html) 98.0 (4)
2006-07 NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007_leaders.html) 97.9 (5)
Active (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_active.html) 97.7 (3)

[lefty]

I can't wait to see Blair push around GaSoft
Yeah, but the problem is that Gasol will use the vocal flopping tips he got from Kobe.

That shits seems to work every time

[Shastafarian]

Odom has no where to go besides LA. Stop dreaming.

Paker, Manu, RJ with Hill, Finley, Mason off the bench? :lmao :lmao :lmao

Easily one of the worst perimeter defenses in the entire NBA. The corpse of Bruce Bowen isn't going to save you either. Kobe made Bruce his bitch in 2008, it would be even worse next year.

Let's do a comparison shall we?

Parker Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 48.1%

Fisher Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 47.1%
SG - 100% (small sample size but still hahahahahahahahaha)

Fisher has a 1% advantage

Mason Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 46.5%
SG - 50.9%
SF - 45.3%

Kobe Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 44.6%
SG - 50.3%
SF - 57.3%

Kobe has a slight advantage against PGs and SGs and sucks something raw against SFs

Manu Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 50.2%
SF - 51.4%

Vujacic Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45.9%
SG - 48.5%
SF - 62.5%

Vujacic has the advantage against PGs and SGs but he also blows hard at guarding SFs

Jefferson Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 44.6%
SF - 47.9%
PF - 39.6%

Artest Opponent FG% by position:
SF - 45.9%
PF - 50%

Artest has a 2% advantage against SFs but gives up over 10% against PFs

Hill Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45%
SG - 51.1%

Farmar Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45.4%

Pretty even and Farmar can't guard SGs

Finley Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 54.7%
SF - 49.8%
PF - 43.4%

Odom Opponent FG% by position
SF - 42.9%
PF - 47.1%

Clearly Finley's sample size against PF must have been small. Odom might be your best perimeter defender and he hasn't even re-signed yet.

[poeticism707]

Let's do a comparison shall we?

Parker Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 48.1%

Fisher Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 47.1%
SG - 100% (small sample size but still hahahahahahahahaha)

Fisher has a 1% advantage

Mason Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 46.5%
SG - 50.9%
SF - 45.3%

Kobe Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 44.6%
SG - 50.3%
SF - 57.3%

Kobe has a slight advantage against PGs and SGs and sucks something raw against SFs

Manu Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 50.2%
SF - 51.4%

Vujacic Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45.9%
SG - 48.5%
SF - 62.5%

Vujacic has the advantage against PGs and SGs but he also blows hard at guarding SFs

Jefferson Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 44.6%
SF - 47.9%
PF - 39.6%

Artest Opponent FG% by position:
SF - 45.9%
PF - 50%

Artest has a 2% advantage against SFs but gives up over 10% against PFs

Hill Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45%
SG - 51.1%

Farmar Opponent FG% by position:
PG - 45.4%

Pretty even and Farmar can't guard SGs

Finley Opponent FG% by position:
SG - 54.7%
SF - 49.8%
PF - 43.4%

Odom Opponent FG% by position
SF - 42.9%
PF - 47.1%

Clearly Finley's sample size against PF must have been small. Odom might be your best perimeter defender and he hasn't even re-signed yet.

Great leg work!

[Shastafarian]

Great leg work!

Thanks but I let 82games.com do most of the work

[poeticism707]

Thanks but I let 82games.com do most of the work
:hat

[LakerHater]

They actually lost!

[LakerHater]

He played 1 game vs Lakers last season (he was injured for the other one I think, the one they actually won :lol )

36 minutes
14 pts
12 rbds (2 offensive)
1 ass
1 st
1 blk
2 to's
4 pf

They actually lost!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AiRYJjzVDZADpNBCakloduOQvLYF?gid=200 9032608

[21_Blessings]

Clearly Finley's sample size against PF must have been small. Odom might be your best perimeter defender and he hasn't even re-signed yet.

Look how stupid you are.

By the logic you are using Andrew Bynum is a better defender than Tim Duncan.

Jesus, the entire San Antonio is fan base is delusional.

[Shastafarian]

Look how stupid you are.

By the logic you are using Andrew Bynum is a better defender than Tim Duncan.

Jesus, the entire San Antonio is fan base is delusional.

Because I'm using FG% as a comparison? Why did you bold that part of my post? Are you saying Odom isn't a good perimeter defender? you laker fans should really get together and make up your minds about whether Odom can guard anyone on the floor (like so many of you say) or not.

[Shastafarian]

And at least I'm not a loser-douchebag who feels the need to bad mouth another team on that team's fan forum like some people I know.

[EricB]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.


Seriously. Move on.

[21_Blessings]

Because I'm using FG% as a comparison?

You called Odom the best perimeter defender on the Lakers. You know nothing about basketball.

OppFG% is a nice and very flawed statistic. If you think you can use it to define defense then you're dumb. Plain and simple.

Heres the facts.

1) Artest guards the premier SFs better than any player in the NBA. Lebron, Pierce, Melo

2) Kobe plays lockdown man defense as good as anyone in the league when he wants to. Mainly he is used as a "roamer" during the course of the game which makes opp FG% virtually useless with him. Especially with Fisher out there.

3) Manu has never been a good defender

4) RJ use to be an ok defenderr but has been absolutely awful the past 2-3 seasons.

5) Parker lol

Spurs have absolutely nobody to guard the elite wing players of this league. You guys are completely fucked come playoff time.

[Leetonidas]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.

You sir are a fucking douche bag.

[Shastafarian]

You called Odom the best perimeter defender on the Lakers. You know nothing about basketball. I said he "might" be. Learn to read.


OppFG% is a nice and very flawed statistic.lol how is it very flawed?

If you think you can use it to define defense then you're dumb. Plain and simple. Explain how then master genius.


Heres the facts.

1) Artest guards the premier SFs better than any player in the NBA. Lebron, Pierce, Meloopinion


2) Kobe plays lockdown man defense as good as anyone in the league when he wants to. I'm glad you have to say "when he wants to" when describing Kobe's defense. But please, go on.

Mainly he is used as a "roamer" during the course of the game which makes opp FG% virtually useless with him. Especially with Fisher out there.So he never plays man defense?


3) Manu has never been a good defenderOpinion


4) RJ use to be an ok defenderr but has been absolutely awful the past 2-3 seasons. Statistics don't agree with your opinion


5) Parker lolFisher lol


Spurs have absolutely nobody to guard the elite wing players of this league.Lakers have absolutely nobody to guard the point guards of the league. Their starting SG plays good defense "when he wants to".

You guys are completely fucked come playoff time.Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[ElNono]

3) Manu has never been a good defender


You know nothing about basketball.

:jack

[angelbelow]

You called Odom the best perimeter defender on the Lakers. You know nothing about basketball.

OppFG% is a nice and very flawed statistic. If you think you can use it to define defense then you're dumb. Plain and simple.

Heres the facts.

1) Artest guards the premier SFs better than any player in the NBA. Lebron, Pierce, Melo

2) Kobe plays lockdown man defense as good as anyone in the league when he wants to. Mainly he is used as a "roamer" during the course of the game which makes opp FG% virtually useless with him. Especially with Fisher out there.

3) Manu has never been a good defender

4) RJ use to be an ok defenderr but has been absolutely awful the past 2-3 seasons.

5) Parker lol

Spurs have absolutely nobody to guard the elite wing players of this league. You guys are completely fucked come playoff time.

im not gonna come at you swing, but i think you should give those guys a little more credit.

manu isnt a great defnder, certainly not as great as kobe in terms of one on one defense. but manu is great at anticipating steals. his man to man main not be the best but he always gives 100%.

rj, i agree his defense sucked shit the last 2 seasons. but i think some of it may have to do with the fact that hes the goto scorer. since he wont be required to score 20+ a game on our team, hopefully he can focus a little more on the defensive end.

parker, im not sure if youre trying to argue that hes not a good defender, but his defense is pretty. but you would only know that if you watched him play often.

all in all the lakers are still the best and the spurs are 2nd. i think its going to be a fun year for all basketball fans.

[sabar]

You called Odom the best perimeter defender on the Lakers. You know nothing about basketball.

OppFG% is a nice and very flawed statistic. If you think you can use it to define defense then you're dumb. Plain and simple.

Heres the facts.

1) Artest guards the premier SFs better than any player in the NBA. Lebron, Pierce, Melo

2) Kobe plays lockdown man defense as good as anyone in the league when he wants to. Mainly he is used as a "roamer" during the course of the game which makes opp FG% virtually useless with him. Especially with Fisher out there.

3) Manu has never been a good defender

4) RJ use to be an ok defenderr but has been absolutely awful the past 2-3 seasons.

5) Parker lol

Spurs have absolutely nobody to guard the elite wing players of this league. You guys are completely fucked come playoff time.

Do you even watch basketball? Manu and Parker are great defenders. They don't give up space, they rotate very well, and Manu always picks off errant passes. Pop pulls players when they miss rotations and suck. You are totally delusional and insecure like the whole laker bandwagon. You would think if the Spurs suck so much that you wouldn't even have to address them. It's like us going to a suns board and making ourselves feel secure. Pathetic.

[DrHouse]

Manu is not a great one on one defender, but he's not a liability eitehr. He's good at anticipating passes and going for steals though. Same goes for Parker, not an outstanding defender but definitely good enough. Neither of these players are a weak point in the Spur's defense. The same applies to RJ.

The problem with the Spurs is that they now have a very mediocre defense. No terrific man defenders like Bowen who can really make Kobe work and not much of a presence in the paint outside of Duncan. They have never been a team that relied on their offense but these last few seasons that's exactly what they have become. And it's the reason why they are no longer an elite team.

[Shastafarian]

Manu is not a great one on one defender, but he's not a liability eitehr. He's good at anticipating passes and going for steals though. Same goes for Parker, not an outstanding defender but definitely good enough. Neither of these players are a weak point in the Spur's defense. The same applies to RJ.

The problem with the Spurs is that they now have a very mediocre defense. No terrific man defenders like Bowen who can really make Kobe work and not much of a presence in the paint outside of Duncan. They have never been a team that relied on their offense but these last few seasons that's exactly what they have become. And it's the reason why they are no longer an elite team.

It's why they drafted George Hill, Jack McClinton, and DeJuan Blair. They're young yeah, but they are all potentially great defenders. Duncan and McDyess aren't too shabby either.

[poeticism707]

It's why they drafted George Hill, Jack McClinton, and DeJuan Blair. They're young yeah, but they are all potentially great defenders. Duncan and McDyess aren't too shabby either.

You mean our resident doctor ignored the facts?!?

[ElNono]

Manu is not a great one on one defender, but he's not a liability eitehr. He's good at anticipating passes and going for steals though. Same goes for Parker, not an outstanding defender but definitely good enough. Neither of these players are a weak point in the Spur's defense. The same applies to RJ.

The problem with the Spurs is that they now have a very mediocre defense. No terrific man defenders like Bowen who can really make Kobe work and not much of a presence in the paint outside of Duncan. They have never been a team that relied on their offense but these last few seasons that's exactly what they have become. And it's the reason why they are no longer an elite team.

I agree with this. Our defense has slipped, but I think it has more to do with fielding players like Finley, Bonner and Mason. I think we've improved at those positions. The biggest problem in the paint has been rebounding, and I think we improved substantially on that department also. With a young guy or two stepping up, I don't see why we can't play the elite defense we're used to.
I'm not really concerned about players like Kobe. He is, after all, better when he passes than when he shoots. I'm more concerned about slowing down the other pieces, and I think we've improved substantially in that department.
Lakers are probably still the better team if they resign Odom. But if we work in developing our defense again and stay healthy, it's anybody's game.

[lefty]

They actually lost!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AiRYJjzVDZADpNBCakloduOQvLYF?gid=200 9032608
Huh?

No re-read, I said that they won the game he missed

Dice played in the 92-77 loss

[SA210]

Seriously. Move on.

No sorry, it's true.

[poeticism707]

No sorry, it's true.
:king

[bresilhac]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.


You want to talk about fucked up benches? How about Walton, Farmar, Vujovic, or whatever the hell is name is, and no Ariza. The Lakers will wilt late in games simply because of a lack of depth. As was said before Bryant will not drop 100 a night so some of those wusses will have to step up.

[J.T.]

Spurs have absolutely nobody to guard the elite wing players of this league. You guys are completely fucked come playoff time.

The Lakers won't either after Artest gets himself tossed from playoff games.

[poeticism707]

The Lakers won't either after Artest gets himself tossed from playoff games.
:lol

[poeticism707]

The bottom line is this: We need another legit 7 footer that can play defense.

Also, as far as Manu being a bad defensive player... it's horse shit. He can defend. He's long, agile and his hands are active. Parker is the one who can't play defense. I'd actually say he's one of the worst defensive PGs in the NBA, and I would even contemplate trading him for Rondo and a couple of draft picks.

Seriously. You consider before you type such things.

I am not saying for a second that Parker is a defensive 1st team stalwart, but even with shortcomings, he still brings MUCH more to the table than Rondo.

[ezau]

Why are these Faker fans so upbeat with Artest? He's nothing more than a jumpshooting chucker whose defensed has slipped. Whether the Lakers sign Odom or not, I feel confident about what the Spurs are going to do. We've shored up our frontline and our wings have just got better. Laker fans are still not accepting that this is not the 2008 and 2009 Spurs anymore. Watch out League

[manu_maniac]

What I'm going to love this season is that everyone is going to have relearn how to play us. Last season we were basically the same team that other teams already understood how to play against, while we were still trying to figure ourselves out because of injuries. We beat the Lakers in regular season (don't pull the "regular season lol" card), and now our team has vastly improved. The Lakers will potentially be worse than last year. Things are looking pretty damn good for us now. . . .

[LakerHater]

Huh?

No re-read, I said that they won the game he missed

Dice played in the 92-77 loss

You're right, my bad I read that wrong!!
...so sorry!

Anyway, yeah they actually waon the game he missed but lost the game he played!

[Ace9]

These stats don't hold much value now, imo.

[HarlemHeat37]

BTW, has anybody seen Artest since he joined LA? LOL..he's all over the place, trying to make deals for reality shows, drinking everywhere, smoking cigars everywhere, starstruck..he looks like he gained even more weight, even after he was looking a little too big last year with Houston..

I can't wait to see him on the court..

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

Won't be long before Tia Tequila has him on her reality show.




and he beats the hell out of her.

[Interrohater]

At least we don't have to see this anymore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DWjQFaZ_AI&NR=1

[lefty]

You're right, my bad I read that wrong!!
...so sorry!

Anyway, yeah they actually waon the game he missed but lost the game he played!
:toast

[weebo]

Too bad Kobe and Artest will do what they want if we don't bring Bruce back.

:lol

Are you Bruce Bowen??

[lennyalderette]

Manu and RJ are not excellent defensive players. Take those shit colored black and silver cock sucking glasses off.
:lol dude us men here in texas where black and white, while your la team has wnba colors purple and gold? first of all your black momba lol is scared of ginobili he said it himself in the documentary, he has also stated that ginobili is his fav player to watch , and ive never heard manu say the same whos owning who here? you punk bitches from la should kept the 9o's riotes going, it would of really helped clean the world.

[DPG21920]

LMAO at Artest guarding the elite SF's better than anyone else. Did you not watch him this year? He was murdered by all the elite SF's. He does ok if they try and go down low, but on the perimeter, the guys with speed and skill (Pierce, Lebron, Melo...) will all murder Artest.

His perimeter defense/lateral quickness has evaporated. His days of being a lock down defender are out of the window. He is still a decent defender because he focuses and tries, especially down low, but overall he has seen his best days.

[Mr. Body]

BTW, has anybody seen Artest since he joined LA? LOL..he's all over the place, trying to make deals for reality shows, drinking everywhere, smoking cigars everywhere, starstruck..he looks like he gained even more weight, even after he was looking a little too big last year with Houston..

I can't wait to see him on the court..

Impossible. He's even better than Kobe at this point! Maybe the second best player of ALL TIME.

[DrHouse]

Artest is still very much an elite defender. His post defense is almost unmatched by any SF not named Lebron James. He is absolutely immovable on the block, which makes him perfect to guard SF's like Pierce and Melo. He certainly did not get burned by the elite SF's last season, he more than held his own. Most importantly, he did a better job than Ariza.

So what if he can't guard PG's or SG's. The Lakers don't need him to. We still have Kobe and Shannon Brown for that.

Who do you have Spur fan? Bruce Bowen is long gone.

[Spursfan 87]

I want Bruce back..........as an assistant coach. Bruce is done, he can't defend anymore and he's not hitting his 3s.

[DPG21920]

Artest is still very much an elite defender. His post defense is almost unmatched by any SF not named Lebron James. He is absolutely immovable on the block, which makes him perfect to guard SF's like Pierce and Melo. He certainly did not get burned by the elite SF's last season, he more than held his own. Most importantly, he did a better job than Ariza.

So what if he can't guard PG's or SG's. The Lakers don't need him to. We still have Kobe and Shannon Brown for that.

Who do you have Spur fan? Bruce Bowen is long gone.

Fail. Lebron/Pierce/Melo will eat him alive. He is not even close to an elite defender. Yes, on the low block he is very good, but to be an "elite" defender, you must be able to guard a couple positions and your own on the perimeter.

Same thing with Artest vs Kobe. Kobe was being stubborn and trying to post Artest up and it was difficult. He realized this then started catching the ball up top and just absolutely torched Artest.

Melo/Pierce/Bron are all going to do the same thing. They will break Artest down and cause the defense to collapse.

[Spursfan 87]

RJ is a great defender. When he was in NJ he was their best perimeter defender. LAst season he needed to score, and his team was not going no where, now he has another chance for a ring in a defensive team. I know that we are going to see a defensive minded RJ this season.

[DrHouse]

Fail. Lebron/Pierce/Melo will eat him alive. He is not even close to an elite defender. Yes, on the low block he is very good, but to be an "elite" defender, you must be able to guard a couple positions and your own on the perimeter.

Same thing with Artest vs Kobe. Kobe was being stubborn and trying to post Artest up and it was difficult. He realized this then started catching the ball up top and just absolutely torched Artest.

Melo/Pierce/Bron are all going to do the same thing. They will break Artest down and cause the defense to collapse.

Are you fucking stupid? Seriously, you are FUCKING STUPID.

This is Ron Artest we are talking about, former DPOY, YOU DUMB FUCKING IDIOT.

Good God YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID.

[DPG21920]

Are you fucking stupid? Seriously, you are FUCKING STUPID.

This is Ron Artest we are talking about, former DPOY, YOU DUMB FUCKING IDIOT.

Good God YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID.

Former DPOY :lol

Who cares if he is the former defensive player of the year. He has noticeably slipped and has lost the majority of his lateral quickness. He is no where near his old defensive abilities.

For someone that brings up the Spurs age and "if we are talking 3-4 years ago...", you sure do overlook that Ron was that defender in 2003-2004. You do realize it is 2009, right?

Ben Wallace and Camby each won DPOY after Artest, are they still elite defenders?

You are the worst poster on ST.

[DrHouse]

First of all Ron Artest is 29.



Hypothesis #1. Ron is an excellent on-ball defender.


Seems silly to doubt this point as Ron has been a Defensive Player of the Year. But let’s see if the numbers back this up. Of course defensive stats are notoriously hard to quantify. One stat is opponent’s PER.


We see from 82games.com that Cleveland (http://www.82games.com/0809/BYPOS8.HTM)has the best PER against small forwards at 12.6 and Houston was second at 13.5. So far so good. Looking into the Cavs (http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CLE.HTM) and Rockets (http://www.82games.com/0809/0809HOU.HTM) in more detail shows that Lebron’s defensive PER was a good 13.5. Of course the Rockets also have Battier who was at 12.3. However Artest was even better at 12.2. By the PER-against metric, it is safe to say that Ron is an elite on-ball defender. (Bowen was 16.3 and Ariza 23.0). Versus Ariza, a significant upgrade.




Hypothesis #2. Ron’s true value will be evident against the top teams in the league.


How does Ron play against Lebron, Melo, and Pierce. The three best players on the best teams in the NBA not called the Lakers?


We see that all three performed below their career averages. Pierce came closest to matching his career numbers. Lebron especially has had problems with Artest (No wonder he recruited Artest so hard). James’ 5.1 turnovers per game really stand out. Impressively, Artest’s team has a win/loss advantage against all three players. 7-3 against Lebron is no joke. These records include results when Artest was with losing teams in Chicago and Sacramento. By the way, Lebron’s record against Bruce Bowen with over 50% shooting and at 29 ppg.

[DPG21920]

Ok....

Defensive Win Shares
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.6
2. LeBron James-CLE 6.3
3. Rajon Rondo-BOS 5.0
4. Yao Ming-HOU 4.9
5. Rashard Lewis-ORL 4.9
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.9
7. Paul Pierce-BOS 4.8
8. Chris Paul-NOH 4.7
9. Anderson Varejao-CLE 4.5
10. Gerald Wallace-CHA 4.4
11. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 4.4
12. Hedo Turkoglu-ORL 4.4
13. Emeka Okafor-CHA 4.4
14. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.3
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.3
16. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.3
17. Luis Scola-HOU 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 4.1
20. Ron Artest-HOU


Defensive Rating
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 94.6
2. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.5
3. LeBron James-CLE 99.1
4. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.0
5. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 100.2
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.2
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 100.5
8. Chris Andersen-DEN 100.6
9. Yao Ming-HOU 100.9
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 100.9
11. Lamar Odom-LAL 101.7
12. Trevor Ariza-LAL 102.2
13. Gerald Wallace-CHA 102.4
14. Joel Przybilla-POR 102.4
15. Luis Scola-HOU 102.4
16. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 102.6
17. Emeka Okafor-CHA 102.7
18. Rashard Lewis-ORL 102.8
19. Chris Paul-NOH 103.1
20. Rasheed Wallace-DET 103.4


These numbers have him not in the elite category. I watched the games and you can clearly see he lost his lateral quickness. It is not that he is the worst defender ever, but not an elite defender any more. Good low post defender, sub par perimeter defender.

[DrHouse]

Ok....

Defensive Win Shares
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.6
2. LeBron James-CLE 6.3
3. Rajon Rondo-BOS 5.0
4. Yao Ming-HOU 4.9
5. Rashard Lewis-ORL 4.9
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.9
7. Paul Pierce-BOS 4.8
8. Chris Paul-NOH 4.7
9. Anderson Varejao-CLE 4.5
10. Gerald Wallace-CHA 4.4
11. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 4.4
12. Hedo Turkoglu-ORL 4.4
13. Emeka Okafor-CHA 4.4
14. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.3
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.3
16. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.3
17. Luis Scola-HOU 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 4.1
20. Ron Artest-HOU


Defensive Rating
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 94.6
2. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.5
3. LeBron James-CLE 99.1
4. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.0
5. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 100.2
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.2
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 100.5
8. Chris Andersen-DEN 100.6
9. Yao Ming-HOU 100.9
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 100.9
11. Lamar Odom-LAL 101.7
12. Trevor Ariza-LAL 102.2
13. Gerald Wallace-CHA 102.4
14. Joel Przybilla-POR 102.4
15. Luis Scola-HOU 102.4
16. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 102.6
17. Emeka Okafor-CHA 102.7
18. Rashard Lewis-ORL 102.8
19. Chris Paul-NOH 103.1
20. Rasheed Wallace-DET 103.4


These numbers have him not in the elite category. I watched the games and you can clearly see he lost his lateral quickness. It is not that he is the worst defender ever, but not an elite defender any more. Good low post defender, sub par perimeter defender.

Get the fuck out of here with your cherry picked bullshit stats. You don't even know what you're talking about. Anything that has Hedo Fucking Turkolgu and Rashard Lewis above Artest defensively in anything is complete and utter crap. Face it, you got owned 6 ways from Sunday and found the only stats you could to back up your pathetic argument.

Ron Artest is an ELITE defender against the best SF's in this league. His stats PROVE that fact as not one of them was able to shoot above their career average. He is an absolute upgrade defensively over Trevor Ariza and that's all that matters.

Spur fan is losing sight of the big picture. Ron Artest doesn't need to be DPOY for the Lakers to be a better team. He just needs to be better than Trevor Ariza. And that he is.

[DPG21920]

Get the fuck out of here with your cherry picked bullshit stats. You don't even know what you're talking about. Anything that has Hedo Fucking Turkolgu and Rashard Lewis above Artest defensively in anything is complete and utter crap. Face it, you got owned 6 ways from Sunday and found the only stats you could to back up your pathetic argument.

Ron Artest is an ELITE defender against the best SF's in this league. His stats PROVE that fact as not one of them was able to shoot above their career average. He is an absolute upgrade defensively over Trevor Ariza and that's all that matters.

Spur fan is losing sight of the big picture. Ron Artest doesn't need to be DPOY for the Lakers to be a better team. He just needs to be better than Trevor Ariza. And that he is.

Don't be mad that the stats do not back up your argument. All stats are to be evaluated in context.

Ron is a different defender than Ariza. Ariza has the quickness to guard guys on the perimeter from spots 1-3. Artest is a very good low post defender and now a very average perimeter defender within his own position or higher.

You are overplaying how good Artest is defensively overall (bringing up DPOY B.S. when I straight up owned you with your shitty logic with Wallace and Camby). He is not a massive upgrade defensively over Ariza, just has a different skill set.

Offensively is where Artest is superior.

You are the worst poster on ST.

[carrao45]

Did Dr. House ever get with Cutty? (Cuddy?) She's hot

Also, the Dr. House on this forum sucks.

Yeah he boinked her this last season

[HarlemHeat37]

Opposing PER is a horrible way to rank defense, since it doesn't take anything else into account..Amare Stoudemire had one of the best defensive PERs last season IIRC, which absolutely kills it completely..

Anybody that thinks Artest is still a great defender clearly didn't watch basketball last year..he's pure reputation at this point..he's clearly lost a step defensively, and he's clearly too big at this point to be guarding quick players..sure, his post defense is great, but why would anybody even try to post him up in the first place?..these great players don't need to use their post-up games when they can exploit him on the perimeter..

Artest's DPOY award was also at a time where hand-checking was still allowed, which is exactly the defensive style he enjoys playing..so combine that, with his decline physically, and he will clearly continue to decline significantly..ask Rockets fans..

LOL @ he has Kobe to back him up..that's going to be funny..Kobe will actually have to play defense this year, for the first time since the early 3-peat days..the Artest-Battier combination didn't improve Houston's defense, it made them worse, so I can only imagine what Artest with a much inferior defender in Kobe will do..

Ariza was definitely overrated in general, and he wasn't a great 1 on 1 defender..but he was long and athletic, and he forced matchup problems defensively because of that..Artest is going to be much different..

[spursfaninla]

Artest is still very much an elite defender. His post defense is almost unmatched by any SF not named Lebron James. He is absolutely immovable on the block, which makes him perfect to guard SF's like Pierce and Melo. He certainly did not get burned by the elite SF's last season, he more than held his own. Most importantly, he did a better job than Ariza.

So what if he can't guard PG's or SG's. The Lakers don't need him to. We still have Kobe and Shannon Brown for that.

Who do you have Spur fan? Bruce Bowen is long gone.


Question: is Ron ARtest still an elite defender? Lets see how he did against the other team's SF's or big SG...and in doing so, let us actually look at some DATA to see if House has done his homework, or, if as is more likely, he is just talking out of his butt.

Dec 3, game against golden state....Maggette scores 23 on 7-14, and sJ score 26 on 11-18. not a good first Defensive game for Ron for us to analyze...I wanted to start mid-season, to allow for him getting used to the team.

Against Atlanta, dec 9, against Joe Johnson, 8-19 for 22 pts, certainly not "stopped," scored well. SF scored even more efficently, Marvin Williams 5-9 or 11 pts.

Denver, Carmello 8-19 for 22 pts, scoring about his average, shoots 44%, pretty close.

RJ: 6-14, 16 pts, shoots 43%, about right.

Pierce: 7-14, 26 points...

I am going to stop here. I am by no means cherry picking games...I merely looked for games with good SF, and excluded NO stats found...except for a Cleveland, because in all fairness no one stops Lebron. (and lebron did quite well against him, btw).

I see no evidence of Ron being an "elite" defender. Players are shooting about their average against him. Including our RJ.

What people are telling you, and you are not listening: Your team did not need more post defense, it needs good perimeter d. Ron is not good at that anymore because he got too fat/big. Face it, you lost your EXCELLENT perimeter D man in Ariza, and he is not replaced. Your weak PG defense got weaker.

The weak link grows.

[DrHouse]

Question: is Ron ARtest still an elite defender? Lets see how he did against the other team's SF's or big SG...and in doing so, let us actually look at some DATA to see if House has done his homework, or, if as is more likely, he is just talking out of his butt.

Dec 3, game against golden state....Maggette scores 23 on 7-14, and sJ score 26 on 11-18. not a good first Defensive game for Ron for us to analyze...I wanted to start mid-season, to allow for him getting used to the team.

Against Atlanta, dec 9, against Joe Johnson, 8-19 for 22 pts, certainly not "stopped," scored well. SF scored even more efficently, Marvin Williams 5-9 or 11 pts.

Denver, Carmello 8-19 for 22 pts, scoring about his average, shoots 44%, pretty close.

RJ: 6-14, 16 pts, shoots 43%, about right.

Pierce: 7-14, 26 points...

I am going to stop here. I am by no means cherry picking games...I merely looked for games with good SF, and excluded NO stats found...except for a Cleveland, because in all fairness no one stops Lebron. (and lebron did quite well against him, btw).

I see no evidence of Ron being an "elite" defender. Players are shooting about their average against him. Including our RJ.

What people are telling you, and you are not listening: Your team did not need more post defense, it needs good perimeter d. Ron is not good at that anymore because he got too fat/big. Face it, you lost your EXCELLENT perimeter D man in Ariza, and he is not replaced. Your weak PG defense got weaker.

The weak link grows.

On what planet was Ariza ever guarding PG's. Phil Jackson NEVER used him in that role. It's pointless to bring that up.

And I distinctly remember Melo going off for 40+ points in the WCF. I think we sure could have used some Ron Artest post defense there, we damn near lost to DEN because of Ariza's shoddy defense.

[DPG21920]

Give it up House. You are wrong on the subject. No one is saying Ron Artest is a terrible defender, but he is a shell of his former self on that end of the floor. He is good when players play to his strengths (try and take him down low), but just like Kobe did, the good players will realize all you have to do is catch the ball higher then take him off the dribble.

You are trying to make it seem like he is a better and more versatile defender than Ariza which is clearly a lie. He is a different defender and will do much better down low than Ariza, but overall, it is probably a wash.

[Spurs_210]

On what planet was Ariza ever guarding PG's. Phil Jackson NEVER used him in that role. It's pointless to bring that up.

And I distinctly remember Melo going off for 40+ points in the WCF. I think we sure could have used some Ron Artest post defense there, we damn near lost to DEN because of Ariza's shoddy defense.
Ok this proves you really don't even watch any games. Maybe the Laker playoff games but nothing else. PJ use Azia to guard PGs. In fact he used him to guard Parker. Other Laker fans correct me if I'm wrong but I know he has used him in that role.

[DPG21920]

On what planet was Ariza ever guarding PG's. Phil Jackson NEVER used him in that role. It's pointless to bring that up.
.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-162/Who-Can-Guard-Tony-Parker-.html

Who Can Guard Tony Parker?

June 29, 2009 4:59 PM

The hand-checking rules have been changed since 2001, but it has taken a few years for the rules to evolve into a different loooking game.

As of 2009, it's officially clear that super-fast guards can do serious damage in NBA defenses. Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Aaron Brooks ... the quick guys who can get into the lane at will have become little one-man wrecking crews at times.

The old way to guard them was to bump them off course with an arm or a body. The new way ... not sure there is a new way yet.

I had been assuming that every team would basically have to have a speedy defender to throw out there in those situations. (Somebody keeps blowing by Steve Blake? Bring in Jerryd Bayless!)

But assumptions are always dangerous, and Kurt from Forum Blue and Gold makes a great point: If nobody can stop those guys consistently without drawing a lot of fouls, why carry a player who specializes in trying?

And what's more, why play a tiny guy, when long ones are generally more effective?

The Lakers have had their best success not with small and quick but with bigger and longer. Look at it this way, under today's rules Tony Parker could not defend Tony Parker, Jameer Nelson could not stop Jameer Nelson. Defending these guards with bigger, longer players allows some room for mistakes with good recovery. They Lakers had some of their best success this season when Trevor Ariza was switched to cover a point guard. Just something to think about.

[Muser]

House got owned again, good job DPG :tu


:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

Anthony only had 1 great game..

his shooting outside of game 1..

12-29, 0-6
4-13, 1-7
3-16, 0-3
9-23, 1-4
6-17, 1-3

Ariza sucks man..I can't believe he allowed that 3-16 game, just ridiculous..and that 6-17 game? wtf?! he couldn't hold him to 4-17?!..

[dbestpro]

On what planet was Ariza ever guarding PG's. Phil Jackson NEVER used him in that role. It's pointless to bring that up.

And I distinctly remember Melo going off for 40+ points in the WCF. I think we sure could have used some Ron Artest post defense there, we damn near lost to DEN because of Ariza's shoddy defense.

Damn, you are dense. Small forwards who shoot from outside will do better against LA with Artest than Ariza. SF who tries to score inside would have had trouble anyway. So, the perimeter defense is more weak. No wonder California is leading the nation in the unemployed.

[DrHouse]

Ok this proves you really don't even watch any games. Maybe the Laker playoff games but nothing else. PJ use Azia to guard PGs. In fact he used him to guard Parker. Other Laker fans correct me if I'm wrong but I know he has used him in that role.

:lmao

He used Ariza on Parker once in a regular season game in the 4th quarter.

In the playoffs, he left Fisher out to die. You don't know what you're talking about kid.

[DrHouse]

Damn, you are dense. Small forwards who shoot from outside will do better against LA with Artest than Ariza. SF who tries to score inside would have had trouble anyway. So, the perimeter defense is more weak. No wonder California is leading the nation in the unemployed.

So just so I have this straight.

According to Spur fan, Trevor Ariza is a better defender than Ron Artest with guys like Melo, Pierce, and LBJ.

:lmao

Ariza couldn't even guard Artest for christ sakes. He got used and abused by bigger, bulkier, SF's.

[Spurs_210]

:lmao

He used Ariza on Parker once in a regular season game in the 4th quarter.

In the playoffs, he left Fisher out to die. You don't know what you're talking about kid.
Says the guy who posted "he NEVER used him in that role"

[spursfaninla]

I liked the subtle "kid" reference, ignoring the article owning him.

This guy is too easy to own. Its like getting laid by a good looking hooker: you could brag, but what would be the point?

[DPG21920]

I am sensing a malpractice suit.

[DrHouse]

:lmao

I watched every Laker regular season and post season game. Don't fucking sit here and tell me that Phil Jackson put Trevor Ariza on PG's consistently throughout the playoffs.

He didn't. Show me video evidence or STFU.

/thread

[DrHouse]

He did it maybe once or twice that I can remember. No need for that this season because Shannon is a better defender, shooter and athlete than Ariza is. Were fucking awesome!!!

Exactly.

Jackson left Fisher out to die on an island. He did not consistently put Ariza on the other team's PG.

Thus, it is pointless to discuss Ron Artest's ability to defend PG's since Ariza rarely, if ever, did it himself.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I sure hope so, cuz I think if he doesn't come back, our new signings don't matter if we have to play the Lakers. I would have to predict that we'd have one of those Mavs or Suns seasons from a few years ago, great the whole season, but then we'll get unraveled by the Lakers in the post season, all cuz Bruce wasn't here to cool down Kobe.

Another horrible scenario would be if Lakers got him. Then Bruce would shutdown Manu or Jefferson too while Kobe gets what he wants. Phil would love this.

Step away from Bruce's nuts, dude. That's not a crack pipe you're smoking. While I wouldn't mind Bruce coming back he will be in a suit most of the time if he does. He might be good for short stints, but there was a reason he didn't get on the floor much last year even w/ Manu out as much as he was. He has lost a step. He is not going to shut Kobe down. The lockdown defender role is going to RJ. He is going to be called on to play D like he did in NJ and not worry as much regarding his offense. With all the fantastic moves the Spurs have made over the summer you are focusing on a guy who would at best be our 3rd string SF as the key to our season's success....SHHHHEEEEZZZZ:bang

[bostonguy]

These are the guys we need Artest to guard...

Pierce
Dick Jefferson
Melo
Lebron
Marion
Rashard Lewis

Artest wont have to guard perimeter players. Ariza rarely guarded perimeter players. The only thing Ariza does slightly better than Artest is jump the lanes for steals. Artest is vast superior at everything else compared to Ariza.

What you guys dont realize is every team Artest played on they needed him to score. He was a go-to guy on all of those other teams. Even without Ariza, and Bynum, we still have the best offense in the league... hands down!!!

Artest is going to come in and do the dirty work for us. Thats all we need him for. Hes a good rebounder, still a strong defender, a good spot up shooter, and can also slash, post up, and create for his teammates, and he loves to compete.

For the first time in his career hes going to be playing with no pressure, and that is what will make him so dangerous on our team. Artest will be such a perfect fit, that all of you are praying for the Lakers to lose Odom, which isn't happening by the way.

Get ready for some of this... only this time, because hes going to be in purple and gold, it wont be a foul.

NtHs1x4-mgY


You are really that confident Odom is staying? Why is it taking this long? I thought I heard he was going to be making a decision earlier this week.

[Spurs_210]

:lmao

I watched every Laker regular season and post season game. Don't fucking sit here and tell me that Phil Jackson put Trevor Ariza on PG's consistently throughout the playoffs.

He didn't. Show me video evidence or STFU.

/thread
Now you correct yourself :lmao

[buttsR4rebounding]

Get the fuck out of here with your cherry picked bullshit stats. You don't even know what you're talking about. Anything that has Hedo Fucking Turkolgu and Rashard Lewis above Artest defensively in anything is complete and utter crap. Face it, you got owned 6 ways from Sunday and found the only stats you could to back up your pathetic argument.

Ron Artest is an ELITE defender against the best SF's in this league. His stats PROVE that fact as not one of them was able to shoot above their career average. He is an absolute upgrade defensively over Trevor Ariza and that's all that matters.

Spur fan is losing sight of the big picture. Ron Artest doesn't need to be DPOY for the Lakers to be a better team. He just needs to be better than Trevor Ariza. And that he is.

Actually, that isn't even the the big picture. The real question is did the Spurs improve enough to overtake the Lakers even if they keep Odom (which I believe they will) and Artest is an upgrade over Ariza (which I believe he is, but not by a ton)? The Spurs took massive strides in turning weaknesses into strengths and have thusfar had far and away the best offseason of any team. Is it enough to beat the Lakers? I firmly believe that it will be settled in the Western Conference Finals. We will have enough to win if we are healthy and Blair and Mahimni can give us quality minutes and we won't if they don't and that remains to be seen...

[DPG21920]

No one is saying that Artest is a terrible defender, but he is not better than Ariza overall. He has certain things he does better, other things he does worse.

All of the great offensive players (Pierce, Bron, Melo, ...) will do what Kobe did to him. Figure out that going down low won't work and then draw him out onto the perimeter.

[DPG21920]

Also, no one (or at least normal people), are not saying Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza. But it is on the offensive end where you will see the big improvement.

Artest being able to focus on defense will be a great thing and he works his butt off. But that does not change the fact he has lost a step on the perimeter and that the great offensive players he will have to guard will not try and beat Artest at his own game. They will do what Kobe did.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Do you get the sense that this thread has evolved away from "McDyess vs the lakers last season"?

[iggypop123]

Do you get the sense that this thread has evolved away from "McDyess vs the lakers last season"?

its better than hearing blair "the beast that will rule the world" is better than gasol, amare etc

[bostonguy]

If he had interest in leaving, he would have left. Clearly Odom wants to stay in LA. Buss took the offer off the table more than a week ago, and reportedly is still upset over how Odom and his agent tried to play hard ball and Odom is still in LA. If he wanted to go to Miami, he would have already.

Either way, with or without Odom. We'll see you guys in the finals. Hopefully with Odom.

Well after seeing Kobe clearly saying he wants Odom back, I just dont see Buss letting Odom walk. Last thing Buss needs is his franchise superstar upset. Im guessing they are just hammering out the details.

[DPG21920]

Clueless, aren't you?

You have done nothing to refute anything. Anyone who watches the game can see Artest has lost a step. There is really no arguing this point. Kobe torched Artest.

LMAO at saying if Ron has lost a step that Manu/Duncan must be done. What kind of gorilla math logic is that?

Tim has lost a step, but he was always 10x the player Artest was. Not to mention, you don't see Spurs fans bringing up stats from 2006 and awards from 2004 to say that Duncan has not lost a step.

[DPG21920]

Anthony only had 1 great game..

his shooting outside of game 1..

12-29, 0-6
4-13, 1-7
3-16, 0-3
9-23, 1-4
6-17, 1-3

Ariza sucks man..I can't believe he allowed that 3-16 game, just ridiculous..and that 6-17 game? wtf?! he couldn't hold him to 4-17?!..


Now, back to Artest being able to guard perimeter players. You would think Spurs fans would be very familiar with his perimeter skills. He out-played Manu in 06, and after carefully watching some video footage in that series, it seems Artest has not lost a step. In fact, hes never been a quick player to begin with, hes very good at positioning himself, and very strong... much like Posey, but better.

In six games, Manu's numbers were...
10/5
32/9/9
8/4
3/2
27/4
10/5

Artest went...
16/2
DNP
22/12
14/4
24/4
11/3

Now, this was against a healthy Manu... no injuries! Manu at that time was one of the best perimeter players in the league, and look at Manu's best game of 32/9/9. The only reason he put up those numbers were because Artest was suspended... (another gift by Stern to the Spurs I might add.) Upon the return of Artest, Manu continued to be shut down by Artest.

If Artest is no longer the defensive monster he use to be, then we can definitely agree that Manu and Duncan are no longer the Championship titans they use to be. You cant have it both ways Spur fan.

How can you agree with the assessment that Ariza got torched by Melo and the Artest will be an improvment, see these numbers, then post the garbage you posted from 2006 as any kind of evidence that Artest is still an elite defender?

[DPG21920]

I never said Ariza got torched by Melo. Im saying 1) Artest is a much better perimeter defender than you all make him out to be, and 2) I showed you how he shut down Manu. 3) Face it, Manu and Tim have lost more than what Artest has lost. Age and season ending injuries takes its toll. You havent seen a healthy Manu in over two years. Hes lost more than just a step.

Your best wing players in RJ, MANU, FINELY, and Mason will get eaten alive by Artest. That much we know for sure.

1) No one is saying he is Finley on the perimeter, but he has lost a step and is no where near an elite level out there. So if Ariza did not get torched by Melo, are you saying that Dr.House is an idiot/liar/worst poster on ST?

2) You showed stats from 2006, correct? Did you watch him last season? Did you hear what Rocket fans say about his defense? Did you see what Kobe did to him?

3) Maybe so, but Tim was so far ahead of Artest that it does not matter. Also, if you look at the per minute stats from last year, when Manu played, he was not far off of his production from last year which was his best season. Manu got injured in the playoffs the year before last, up until then he had a great season. So that does not make sense.

[DPG21920]

Name one player Kobe hasn't torched, dumb dumb.

Not the point. Lebron/Melo/Pierce are all near his level offensively. If Artest was getting torched by Kobe, the same will happen by those 3. He will not be an upgrade over Ariza in that regard which Laker "fans" are claiming.

[DrHouse]

Not the point. Lebron/Melo/Pierce are all near his level offensively. If Artest was getting torched by Kobe, the same will happen by those 3. He will not be an upgrade over Ariza in that regard which Laker "fans" are claiming.

No, no, no. I already showed you the stats, Artest has held all 3 of those players to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

Look what Trevor was able to do against Melo 1-1:

Game 1 WCF: Melo - 14/20 - 39 pts
Game 2 WCF: Melo - 12/29 - 34 pts

It wasn't until Phil had to change the defensive strategy to trap Melo that we were able to bottle him up.

DPG you simply don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

[DPG21920]

James, Pierce, and Melo are no where near what Kobe is offensively. You mistake point average for talent. You may as well put Arenas in there as well with your logic.

What??? Melo and Pierce are widely considered the best overall offensive players in the game. Lebron, although he lacks a good post game, is still very, very good with his combo of outside shooting, size, speed and ball handling.

Don't be silly, those 3 are very close to Kobe as an offensive player.

[DPG21920]

On what planet was Ariza ever guarding PG's. Phil Jackson NEVER used him in that role. It's pointless to bring that up.

And I distinctly remember Melo going off for 40+ points in the WCF. I think we sure could have used some Ron Artest post defense there, we damn near lost to DEN because of Ariza's shoddy defense.


http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-162/Who-Can-Guard-Tony-Parker-.html

Who Can Guard Tony Parker?

June 29, 2009 4:59 PM

The hand-checking rules have been changed since 2001, but it has taken a few years for the rules to evolve into a different loooking game.

As of 2009, it's officially clear that super-fast guards can do serious damage in NBA defenses. Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Aaron Brooks ... the quick guys who can get into the lane at will have become little one-man wrecking crews at times.

The old way to guard them was to bump them off course with an arm or a body. The new way ... not sure there is a new way yet.

I had been assuming that every team would basically have to have a speedy defender to throw out there in those situations. (Somebody keeps blowing by Steve Blake? Bring in Jerryd Bayless!)

But assumptions are always dangerous, and Kurt from Forum Blue and Gold makes a great point: If nobody can stop those guys consistently without drawing a lot of fouls, why carry a player who specializes in trying?

And what's more, why play a tiny guy, when long ones are generally more effective?

The Lakers have had their best success not with small and quick but with bigger and longer. Look at it this way, under today's rules Tony Parker could not defend Tony Parker, Jameer Nelson could not stop Jameer Nelson. Defending these guards with bigger, longer players allows some room for mistakes with good recovery. They Lakers had some of their best success this season when Trevor Ariza was switched to cover a point guard. Just something to think about.


Anthony only had 1 great game..

his shooting outside of game 1..

12-29, 0-6
4-13, 1-7
3-16, 0-3
9-23, 1-4
6-17, 1-3

Ariza sucks man..I can't believe he allowed that 3-16 game, just ridiculous..and that 6-17 game? wtf?! he couldn't hold him to 4-17?!..


I never said Ariza got torched by Melo. Im saying Artest is a much better perimeter defender than you all make him out to be, and I showed you how he shut down Manu. Face it, Manu and Tim have lost more than what Artest has lost. Age and season ending injuries takes its toll. You havent seen a healthy Manu in over two years. Hes lost more than just a step.

Your best wing players in RJ, MANU, FINELY, and Mason will get eaten alive by Artest. That much we know for sure.


No, no, no. I already showed you the stats, Artest has held all 3 of those players to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

Look what Trevor was able to do against Melo 1-1:

Game 1 WCF: Melo - 14/20 - 39 pts
Game 2 WCF: Melo - 12/29 - 34 pts

It wasn't until Phil had to change the defensive strategy to trap Melo that we were able to bottle him up.

DPG you simply don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

:lol

Not to mention I posted stats to refute your claims. Your PER had nothing to do with just Ron. Keep in mind the Rockets had Battier to help as well. They played solid team defense. It was far from Ron and Shane often drew the tougher SF match ups.

[DPG21920]

You missing the whole point. We dont need Artest to guard perimeter players. The Lakers are not the heartless Rockets. We are not the talentless Queens. The Lakers are a team with a rich tradition of pride and winning, and Artest understands that. That same tradition that carried over to an unknown Ariza, a forgotten Fisher, an unknown Shannon, a laughed at Pau, a lackluster Odom, will now transfer over to a rejuvenated Artest.

Its a win/win for both parties.

Pierce, Melo and Lebron are not post players. They are perimeter players. You need someone to guard them so Kobe can relax.

Artest > Ariza, but not for the reasons you are listing.

[TimDunkem]

:lol
I like the Laker fan's consistency...

[DPG21920]

Don't be mad that the stats do not back up your argument. All stats are to be evaluated in context.

Ron is a different defender than Ariza. Ariza has the quickness to guard guys on the perimeter from spots 1-3. Artest is a very good low post defender and now a very average perimeter defender within his own position or higher.

You are overplaying how good Artest is defensively overall (bringing up DPOY B.S. when I straight up owned you with your shitty logic with Wallace and Camby). He is not a massive upgrade defensively over Ariza, just has a different skill set.

Offensively is where Artest is superior.

You are the worst poster on ST.


Keep talking out ya ass, son.

LMAO. Thank you for proving my point by posting that article. The part you have underlined: They are not raving about how Artest is a defensive upgrade over Ariza. It says "another long armed defender to fill the role, AND A WHOLE LOT MORE PROVEN OFFENSIVE...'

That is what I said. It is a wash defensively, but the upgrade will take place on the offensive end. Are you this dense?

[DPG21920]

So, after all of your hating, debating, and disagreeing, you are admitting that we upgraded, overall....:lmao

Are you retarded? I am asking seriously because I will feel bad for some of the things I have said to you.

Where have I ever said Artest was not an upgrade over Ariza overall?

This entire thing was about the fact Laker "fans" are saying Artest is an elite defender and much better than Ariza on that end.

That is all.

There is no hating, disagreeing or debating on any other subject or at all. Read back on everything. I am not hating, simply stating common knowledge.

[Spurs_210]

Now, back to Artest being able to guard perimeter players. You would think Spurs fans would be very familiar with his perimeter skills. He out-played Manu in 06, and after carefully watching some video footage in that series, it seems Artest has not lost a step. In fact, hes never been a quick player to begin with, hes very good at positioning himself, and very strong... much like Posey, but better.

In six games, Manu's numbers were...
10/5
32/9/9
8/4
3/2
27/4
10/5

Artest went...
16/2
DNP
22/12
14/4
24/4
11/3

Now, this was against a healthy Manu... no injuries! Manu at that time was one of the best perimeter players in the league, and look at Manu's best game of 32/9/9. The only reason he put up those numbers were because Artest was suspended... (another gift by Stern to the Spurs I might add.) Upon the return of Artest, Manu continued to be shut down by Artest.

If Artest is no longer the defensive monster he use to be, then we can definitely agree that Manu and Duncan are no longer the Championship titans they use to be. You cant have it both ways Spur fan.
Artest may not be as quick as Ariza but definitely stronger. In my book I say Artest is still one of the top defenders and if I really want to sit here and look for any bad in the Lakers picking him up its him knowing his role. He is alittle crazy and really thinks his game is on Kobe's level. I'm sure tho PJ may be able to control that tho. However I wouldn't say he shut down Manu cause you don't really shut guys like him down but maybe slowed him down alittle. Just like Kobe when they're on they're on.

[DrHouse]

It's not a wash defensively. It's an improvement in the areas we are lacking.

We don't need someone to defend SG's and PG's, we have Kobe and Brown for that. We need someone to guard the bulky SF's of the league.

[DPG21920]

It's not a wash defensively. It's an improvement in the areas we are lacking.

We don't need someone to defend SG's and PG's, we have Kobe and Brown for that. We need someone to guard the bulky SF's of the league.

Yes, you keep saying that. Kobe was able to coast defensively, with the exception of certain parts of the game where he would switch onto someone for a little bit.

With Artest, now Kobe has to guard the excellent players in the back court (Fish and Kobe will have to guard TP and Manu for example...).

It is opinion that he will fill some "void" where the Lakers were lacking. Like I said, it is a wash defensively because they are both good at opposite things.

You are making it seem like just because Kobe was a SG and Melo/Pierce/Bron are SF's that Artest will do ok. He got absolutely torched by Kobe once Kobe figured out that he does not have to go down low and be stubborn.

All that matters are playoff teams and elite offensive players. Melo/Pierce/Bron are SF's but present the same problems as Kobe did for Artest because they are perimeter players that can go inside (even though Lebron is not as good in the post).

[DPG21920]

Just to keep things on track: McDyess :lol

[DPG21920]

Artest will be able to do a much better job at keeping Melo/Pierce/Bron from beasting inside and getting offensive rebounds for sure, but they will have the same strategy that Kobe did against him. I do not care what LL says, those 3 guys are very close to Kobe's offensive game.

[DPG21920]

Just curious. Since Im retarded and all, and cant seem to comprehend much. Who do you think is an elite defender at the three position, and can guard those players that you say would murder Artest? Give me four names, thats all.

Lebron is pretty much the best defensive SF when he focuses. Everyone else falls in the tier below. That is why Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Kobe are so great offensively. No one can really shut them down. You are asking for a list that does not exist.

Certainly Artest cannot.

[anonoftheinternets]

So in other words, what you are saying is, outside of Lebron, Artest is next in line as best defensive SF? And are you saying Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Kobe are so great offensively because no one can shut them down, or because there are no good defensive players?

Dont get upset , sweetie, Im just trying to untangle this mess you have here.

i think you guys are approaching this the wrong way. Artest being there will result in fall away threes and fadeaway long twos, hitting at a 34% clip. Taking away shots from a ultra efficient Gasol, and Ariza (last year, shut mouth, plays D, and hit 3s at 50% clip) . Have fun with two chuckers on the team.

Now the touches are going to be (Kobe), (Artest), Gasol, (Fisher), Odom, (Bynum). Thers only so much ball.

Compare to last year, (Kobe), Gasol, (fisher), odom, ariza, (bynum). (paranthesis refers to ppl who like to shoot)

But on the plus side, hes going to be physical and bodying up SFs, unfortunately only time will tell if he is discplined enough for the +s to outweigh the -s.

oh and best of luck with artest in the triangle, he only knows how to play one on one.

[carrao45]

:lol dude us men here in texas where black and white, while your la team has wnba colors purple and gold? first of all your black momba lol is scared of ginobili he said it himself in the documentary, he has also stated that ginobili is his fav player to watch , and ive never heard manu say the same whos owning who here? you punk bitches from la should kept the 9o's riotes going, it would of really helped clean the world.

No Kobe said Ginobili was a warrior, great player etc.

He never said he was afraid of him. who could be afraid of someone on the bench in a suit?

[DPG21920]

2008-2009 Artest matchups in the regular season.

Pierce vs. Artest
19/7....... 16/5

James vs. Artest
24/5........15/4

Melo vs. Artest
15/4......20/5

Now, DPG21920 may look at those numbers and say Artest was destroyed, but my retarded ass translates those numbers much different than his smart ass.

Pierce maintained his season averages against Artest. James was below his season averages in every category against Artest, and Melo must have been high when he and Artest played against each other, because not only did Artest hold him below his averages, Artest himself seemed to excel against Melo.

However you look at it, neither of those guys went off against Artest like DPG smart ass was saying. Im just saying...

Did Battier play at all in those games?

[DPG21920]

So in other words, what you are saying is, outside of Lebron, Artest is next in line as best defensive SF? And are you saying Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Kobe are so great offensively because no one can shut them down, or because there are no good defensive players?

Dont get upset , sweetie, Im just trying to untangle this mess you have here.

No, Artest is not next in line. Where did I say that? You asked for the elite SF defenders, guys who can shut down Kobe/Pierce/Melo...Only Lebron has that ability and even then it is tough because they are all great offensive players that cannot really be stopped unless you swarm them with multiple players and keep the ball out of their hands.

I am saying that the players mentioned cannot be stopped, even when you have elite defenders. When Artest/Bruce/Kobe...were still elite defenders, guys like Kobe/Wade/Bron/Melo still had very good numbers. They might have had to work harder or had some bad nights, but overall the offense wins.

Artest is still a good defensive player, just not better than Ariza. He is different for all of the reasons I outlined.

[DrHouse]

No, Artest is not next in line. Where did I say that? You asked for the elite SF defenders, guys who can shut down Kobe/Pierce/Melo...Only Lebron has that ability and even then it is tough because they are all great offensive players that cannot really be stopped unless you swarm them with multiple players and keep the ball out of their hands.

I am saying that the players mentioned cannot be stopped, even when you have elite defenders. When Artest/Bruce/Kobe...were still elite defenders, guys like Kobe/Wade/Bron/Melo still had very good numbers. They might have had to work harder or had some bad nights, but overall the offense wins.

Artest is still a good defensive player, just not better than Ariza. He is different for all of the reasons I outlined.

You seem to have a knack for completely ignoring factual evidence that completely disputes your arguments.

You say Ron Artest is not an elite defender anymore and yet he held the top 3 SF's in the game to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

You're not going to stop the best players in the game, but if you can keep them at or slightly below their averages you are most certainly doing your job defensively.

[DPG21920]

You seem to have a knack for completely ignoring factual evidence that completely disputes your arguments.

You say Ron Artest is not an elite defender anymore and yet he held the top 3 SF's in the game to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

You're not going to stop the best players in the game, but if you can keep them at or slightly below their averages you are most certainly doing your job defensively.

Did Battier play this year? Because having two solid SF defenders certainly helps against the aforementioned guys.

I did not say Artest is a poor defender, I said he has lost a step on the perimeter and is not elite. I also said he is no better than Ariza overall (take into consideration guarding multiple positions, perimeter defense, post defense, team/help defense, blocks, steals).

Artest has a different defensive skill set than Ariza. IMO it is a wash defensively overall all things considered.

[Muser]

So..Mcdyess last season?

[DPG21920]

Im sure he played in most, if not all, but thats not the point. When Battier and Artest are on the floor, Battier guards the shooting guards. When TMAC was on the floor, he guarded the shooting guards. The guys you mentioned that would destroy Artest play the 3 position.

Admit you were wrong, and lets end this silly discussion. Artest is one of the top defenders in the league... still. Which is why you refused to give a list. He is number three behind Battier, and James... in that order. I gave stats where he shut down Manu while Manu was in his prime, and I gave you stats of him keeping Melo, and James below their averages just this past season, and keeping Pierce from going off.

You have thoroughly loss this argument, and we are going to thoroughly whoop that ass if the Spurs make it past the Mavs.

You gave stats from 2006? I can post Duncan stats from 06, are those representative of Duncan today? No.

You list Battier as a better defender as Ron, who also is a SF and played on the same team, then list the numbers as if Artest did all of the damage when it is clearly not true.

Everyone knows Artest has lost a step. You are acting like he is a significant upgrade over Ariza defensively. He is a wash all things considered. He is still a solid defender, but you are using the word "elite" to liberally.

Just because he "might" be the 3rd best SF defender, does not mean he is elite.

[DPG21920]

But you dont have any numbers showing that those players will beast against Artest. Right.

Well, I saw what Kobe did to him IN THE PLAYOFFS. I can post those numbers for you.

If your argument is that Kobe is a SG and is far superior offensively and plays much differently than Bron/Melo/Pierce then that is your opinion.

My point is that if a guy like Dr.House (whom you don't agree with about Ariza getting torched by the likes of Melo/Bron...) says Artest will help on the best offensive players (SF's / SG's...) then I say no. It will be a wash.

Artest may be more effective on the average players, but the elite players will still torch him just like Kobe in the playoffs.

[Spurs_210]

No Kobe said Ginobili was a warrior, great player etc.

He never said he was afraid of him. who could be afraid of someone on the bench in a suit?
He said "that's a bad boy" basically showing his respect but your right he didn't say he was scared. Not sure where fear came from....

[DPG21920]

Battier shares the majority of that burden. I know Artest is no longer the best defensive player in the league. But, you cant even talk about the top defenders without mentioning his name.

So is he elite and can he do a better job than Ariza in stopping Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Wade/Parker....?

Now he is a top defensive player in the league? Not even just for SF? Is he an upgrade over Ariza defensively overall?

[DPG21920]

Yes he is an upgrade over Ariza defensively. You have to understand pedigrees. Artest was either the best defensive player in the league, or one of the best, while playing on four different teams. Ariza was the benefactor of a great system. Prior to coming to LA, Ariza was not known for his defense, only his occasional dunks.

Now you want argue that a 9 year vet that has made a living off of guarding the teams best wing and perimeter players is not better than a guy that just showed up on the scene and had a few good games???

Its funny, because when we were saying how much we missed Ariza last season against Boston, all of you guys were saying he was a scrub and would have gotten torched anyway. You guys flip/flop points to benefit and fuel your hate for the Lakers. But the stats I provided remains the same, and thats Artest will hold his own against any top wing player in the league.

You keep bringing up the past. Artest was once an elite defender, so was Bowen. I know Artest is not nearly as old as Bowen, but his defense has slipped. He no longer can guard the elite wing/perimeter players unless it is in the low block.

I am not even saying that Ariza was better. I am saying for the Laker team, what Ariza could provide (perimeter defense on positions 1-3 along with steals and help defense) will be a wash with the different tools that Artest brings.

RJ does the same thing and many say he lost a step. He always guarded the other teams best perimeter players for NJ. He is the same age as Artest.

You provided stats from 2006 with regards to Gino. Not relevant. You provided stats from this year, but ignored the fact Battier, who you claim is better than Artest defensively, was on the team and played a major role in helping on Pierce/Melo/Bron.

Only idiot Spurs fans that act like you do would say that Ariza was a scrub. Many Spurs fans wanted Ariza before he went to the Lakers. Yes we all hate the Lakers for the most part, but the ones who are basketball fans still respect them and call a spade a spade.

[DPG21920]

It seems all of the experts agree with me, and that's Artest is one of the best defenders in the league, and hes right where I ranked him as the third best wing defender.

Where is your Ariza? He was on the best, most popular team, and only got one fucking vote.

Argue with that.

Defensive Player of the Year Presented by Kia Motors Voting

PLAYER TEAM 1st (5 Pts) 2nd (3 Pts) 3rd (1 pt) Total
Dwight Howard Orlando 105 4 5 542
LeBron James Cleveland 4 36 20 148
Dwyane Wade Miami 3 20 15 90
Shane Battier Houston 2 17 10 71
Ron Artest Houston 1 13 10 54
Chris Paul New Orleans 1 9 17 49
Kobe Bryant LA Lakers 2 6 15 43
Kevin Garnett Boston 1 6 8 31
Chris Andersen Denver - 2 4 10
Rajon Rondo Boston - 2 2 8
Tim Duncan San Antonio - 1 4 7
Raja Bell Charlotte - 1 1 4
Anderson Varejao Cleveland - 1 - 3
Andre Iguodala Philadelphia - 1 - 3
Ronny Turiaf Golden State - - 2 2
Trevor Ariza LA Lakers - - 1 1
Marcus Camby LA Clippers - - 1 1
Grant Hill Phoenix - - 1 1
Joel Pryzbilla Portland - - 1 1
Hedo Turkoglu Orlando - - 1 1

I thought any list that had Hedo or Hill or Camby or Anderson or CP3 was garbage? Are they all elite defenders? Because they are on the list.

[DPG21920]

Yes, and Battier is ahead of him. Yet you give no credit to him when posting numbers. Do you watch the NBA? Artest is a good defender, but not elite. There are not very many elite defenders in the NBA.

[DPG21920]

Once again, the experts in the NBA Agree with me that Artest is a top five defender, and a top 3 wing defender. Now you trying to take credit from Artest and give credit to Battier to defend your post. The fact is Ariza may as well not even been on the list, but you claim he and Artest are a wash.

Like I said once before. Artest does everything better than Ariza except jumping the lanes better than. Stats dont lie.

What stats? You are giving no credit to Battier to defend your post. Even fans at LG agree that Artest has lost a step and is not an elite defender any more. He is not very good on the perimeter.

Also Rocket fans say the same thing.

[DPG21920]

Well, there is no convincing you, so we can just say wait and see.

[bishopospurs]

Ron Loves Puppies
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gZ18TgcVF2w/R6y7CdQ2YNI/AAAAAAAABWM/nNe7ok8HqZY/s400/Artest+III.jpg

[DPG21920]

Ok....

Defensive Win Shares
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.6
2. LeBron James-CLE 6.3
3. Rajon Rondo-BOS 5.0
4. Yao Ming-HOU 4.9
5. Rashard Lewis-ORL 4.9
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.9
7. Paul Pierce-BOS 4.8
8. Chris Paul-NOH 4.7
9. Anderson Varejao-CLE 4.5
10. Gerald Wallace-CHA 4.4
11. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 4.4
12. Hedo Turkoglu-ORL 4.4
13. Emeka Okafor-CHA 4.4
14. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.3
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.3
16. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.3
17. Luis Scola-HOU 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 4.1
20. Ron Artest-HOU


Defensive Rating
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 94.6
2. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.5
3. LeBron James-CLE 99.1
4. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.0
5. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 100.2
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.2
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 100.5
8. Chris Andersen-DEN 100.6
9. Yao Ming-HOU 100.9
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 100.9
11. Lamar Odom-LAL 101.7
12. Trevor Ariza-LAL 102.2
13. Gerald Wallace-CHA 102.4
14. Joel Przybilla-POR 102.4
15. Luis Scola-HOU 102.4
16. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 102.6
17. Emeka Okafor-CHA 102.7
18. Rashard Lewis-ORL 102.8
19. Chris Paul-NOH 103.1
20. Rasheed Wallace-DET 103.4


These numbers have him not in the elite category. I watched the games and you can clearly see he lost his lateral quickness. It is not that he is the worst defender ever, but not an elite defender any more. Good low post defender, sub par perimeter defender.


LOL!!! You have sunken to a new low my friend. You use those idiots over at LG, and the sour grape Rockets fans as your reference, when I've given you the votes of the experts, and the stats that prove without a shadow of a doubt that Artest can hold his own against the top wing players in the league just as of last season.

You are a special breed my friend.

[carrao45]

It seems all of the experts agree with me, and that's Artest is one of the best defenders in the league, and hes right where I ranked him as the third best wing defender.

Where is your Ariza? He was on the best, most popular team, and only got one fucking vote.

Argue with that.

Defensive Player of the Year Presented by Kia Motors Voting

PLAYER TEAM 1st (5 Pts) 2nd (3 Pts) 3rd (1 pt) Total
Dwight Howard Orlando 105 4 5 542
LeBron James Cleveland 4 36 20 148
Dwyane Wade Miami 3 20 15 90
Shane Battier Houston 2 17 10 71
Ron Artest Houston 1 13 10 54
Chris Paul New Orleans 1 9 17 49
Kobe Bryant LA Lakers 2 6 15 43
Kevin Garnett Boston 1 6 8 31
Chris Andersen Denver - 2 4 10
Rajon Rondo Boston - 2 2 8
Tim Duncan San Antonio - 1 4 7
Raja Bell Charlotte - 1 1 4
Anderson Varejao Cleveland - 1 - 3
Andre Iguodala Philadelphia - 1 - 3
Ronny Turiaf Golden State - - 2 2
Trevor Ariza LA Lakers - - 1 1
Marcus Camby LA Clippers - - 1 1
Grant Hill Phoenix - - 1 1
Joel Pryzbilla Portland - - 1 1
Hedo Turkoglu Orlando - - 1 1

LeBron being anywhere near the top of DPOY voting destroys the credibility of the list. But Artest is a great defender

[carrao45]

What stats? You are giving no credit to Battier to defend your post. Even fans at LG agree that Artest has lost a step and is not an elite defender any more. He is not very good on the perimeter.

Also Rocket fans say the same thing.

Yes the fans on some internet board prove that Artest is not elite. That makes sense

[DPG21920]

Yes the fans on some internet board prove that Artest is not elite. That makes sense

Where did I say that? Context dude. I am saying that many who watched Artest think this.

Watching him play is what proves he is not elite. Once again, the term "elite" is being thrown around too loosely.

[DPG21920]

No, DP. You miserably fail to understand what elite means. Amongst NBA players, Artest is an elite defender. Elite, not in the sense of all-time defenders, but elite, as in one of the top 5 in this league. If the votes and opinions of those who follow this sport for a living doesn't matter, then what does?

The guy has been an elite defender since day one in this league, and now at the age of 29 you'd like to say hes a wash with a guy that has no history of playing defense.

. He is a wash with what he brings to the lakers. Yes Ron was once elite, he no longer is.

Edit: Misread. Thought you said I said Ron was washed up.

[DPG21920]

One thing I do know is Ron is pumped to be a Laker. In his own words, he brings a whole another level to the Lakers.

He does. No one is denying that. I never said he was not an upgrade overall. Just on this issue. Should be exciting.