SLAM: I Got 50! The Top Ten NBA Players For Each Position

[duncan228]

Links: I Got 50! (http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/the-links/2009/07/links-i-got-50/)
by Lang Whitaker
SLAM

A couple of days ago, the guys from Basket, which is definitely one of my two favorite basketball magazines from Germany, hit me with an email. They were assembling a panel of international experts to rank the top 10 NBA players for each position (PG, SG, SF, PF, C = 50 players) for their next issue. By German rules, I qualified as an NBA expert, so they sent along a list of the top few dozen at each position, asked me to rank them, and added a few caveats:

- Don’t mix up the positions, please use their list and positions.
- No rookies.
- It’s not about value for money.
- It doesn’t matter if the player was good two years ago or if he has potential - it’s about today.

So…here’s how I ranked the top ten NBA players at each position. Surely there won’t be anyone out there who disagrees with me, right? Apologies go to whoever it pleases. Here’s my Top 50…

POINT GUARDS

1. Chris Paul (New Orleans Hornets)
2. Tony Parker (San Antonio Spurs)
3. Deron Williams (Utah Jazz)
4. Jameer Nelson (Orlando Magic)
5. Derrick Rose (Chicago Bulls)
6. Rajon Rondo (Boston Celtics)
7. Chauncey Billups (Denver Nuggets)
8. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns)
9. Jason Kidd (Dallas Mavericks)
10. Andre Miller (Philadelphia 76ers)

EXPLANATION:
I wasn’t sure what to do with Gilbert Arenas. When he’s healthy, he’s probably top half of that list, but since this list is for today, and we have no idea how Gilbert’s knee is right now, I left him off. Mo Williams also almost cracked my list, but I put this together thinking if I were starting a franchise today and needed a point guard, these are the guys I’d go after first. Mo would probably be number 11 on my list. Or 12, because Devin Harris was also just left off. I know people will probably quibble with Andre Miller making my list, but I’ve always appreciated his game — never the most athletic guy, but he’s really solid and, in the right system, he understands how to run a team. Same with Baron Davis, who I couldn’t find room for, either.

SHOOTING GUARDS

1. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers)
2. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat)
3. Brandon Roy (Portland Trail Blazers)
4. Joe Johnson (Atlanta Hawks)
5. Vince Carter (Orlando Magic)
6. Michael Redd (Milwaukee Bucks)
7. Ray Allen (Boston Celtics)
8. Jason Terry (Dallas Mavericks)
9. Ben Gordon (Detroit Pistons)
10. Allen Iverson (Detroit Pistons)

EXPLANATION:
Calm down, Sacramento fans. Kevin Martin scores a lot of points, but he doesn’t play defense. At all. Also, he’s missed 52 games the last two seasons, and if I’m building my team around someone, it’s not going to be him. GINOBILI! would have made the list, but with his recent injuries I felt safer leaving him off this time. Same with T-Mac. Iverson? He averaged 17 and 5 last year for Detroit, and when the Pistons let him do his thing, they were still a tough team to beat.

SMALL FORWARDS

1. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers)
2. Carmelo Anthony (Denver Nuggets)
3. Kevin Durant (Oklahoma City Thunder)
4. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics)
5. Ron Artest (L.A. Lakers)
6. Danny Granger (Indiana Pacers)
7. Hedo Turkoglu (Toronto Raptors)
8. Shawn Marion (Miami Heat)
9. Josh Howard (Dallas Mavericks)
10. Richard Jefferson (San Antonio Spurs)

EXPLANATION:
I thought this was the toughest category, by far. At different points I had both Andre Iguodala and Caron Butler on this list, but ended up dropping them. There’s also a lot of younger guys on the come-up (Al Thornton, Luol Deng, Rudy Gay, Trevor Ariza) who could crack this list a year from now.

POWER FORWARDS

1. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs)
2. Pau Gasol (Los Angeles Lakers)
3. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks)
4. Kevin Garnett (Boston Celtics)
5. Chris Bosh (Toronto Raptors)
6. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns)
7. Carlos Boozer (Utah Jazz)
8. David West (New Orleans Hornets)
9. Rashard Lewis (Orlando Magic)
10. Josh Smith (Atlanta Hawks)

EXPLANATION:
There may be some quibbling with some of these guys being listed as power forwards, but I didn’t come up with the list. That said, I found it interesting that Boozer was my generously-rated seventh-best power forward in the NBA and he’s still on target to get a $14 million-a-year deal next season. And so many teams are talking about Bosh as a max guy…really? I left off Elton Brand because of his injuries. I left off Charlie Villanueva because he’s not one of the ten best power forwards in the NBA, although someone probably should have explained that to Joe Dumars a while ago. The ten spot came down to Josh Smith and Kenyon Martin, but I went with Smoove because he’s younger and sturdier.

CENTERS

1. Dwight Howard (Orlando Magic)
2. Shaquille O’Neal (Cleveland Cavaliers)
3. Andrew Bynum (Los Angeles Lakers)
4. Al Horford (Atlanta Hawks)
5. Al Jefferson (Minnesota Timberwolves)
6. Mehmet Okur (Utah Jazz)
7. Nene (Denver Nuggets)
8. Brad Miller (Chicago Bulls)
9. Marcus Camby (Los Angeles Clippers)
10. Tyson Chandler (New Orleans Hornets)

EXPLANATION:
I let off Yao because his foot exploded, otherwise he was my definite number 2 on this list. At the same time, I broke my own rule about the injuries to include Al Jefferson on this list, because the top ten centers were really looking weak and I was afraid I’d have to include Jermaine O’Neal or Chris Kaman or Emeka Okafor. And we can’t be having that.

[Phillip]

how the fuck is pau gasol ranked higher than dirk? bullshit.

[timvp]

Manu Fan to have a meltdown in 3 .... 2 ...

[Phillip]

and :lmao @ bynum being the 3rd best center in the NBA

[Cry Havoc]

How is Shaq rated #2? Ridiculous.

[ginobili's bald spot]

:lol Man this list is gonna piss Spur and mavfan off sooooo much.

[23LeBronJames23]

Devin Harris is better than 11 in PGs

[j-money24]

Andrew Bynum ranked #3 is a joke.
Even though i think Gasol is great, #2 is too high for him.

[timvp]

I think my personal favorite is Bynum over Al Jefferson.

[R4R]

These rankings are "expert" picks alright.

#3 Bynum? What the hell?
LOL You think Pau Gasol is better than Dirk?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's good to see Nash slide down the list.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This guy is pretty fuckin stupid though.

Devin Harris should be somewhere on the top 10 PG list.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How is Shaq rated #2? Ridiculous.


He was 3rd all NBA at his position and the center who was 2nd all NBA is out for all of next season......explain what's so horrible about Shaq being at #2?

[angelbelow]

I think my personal favorite is Bynum over Al Jefferson.

"I would have put Al Jefferson over Bynum but his knees exploded."

[La Peace]

Granger>Artest

[R4R]

Either this guy is a hard-core Lakers fan trying to be fair or he's sucking Laker balls.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Granger>Artest


I didn't even see that but good point.

[LakeShow]

:lol Man this list is gonna piss Spur and mavfan off sooooo much.

:lol It's a trailblazer fan around here who is really going to lose it. His center didn't even get an honorable mention.

[hater]

what's there to get pissed about??? Manu has been out for months.

but dude is way off with ranking AI in top 10 and his list of Centers all fucked up

[BRHornet45]

son as far as ranking my Hornets goes .... good list ;)

[peskypesky]

I like the list and agree with most of it.

[peskypesky]

what's really shocking is the pathetic lack of top-notch talent in the Center position. It seems absurd to have a way-past-his-prime 37-year-old Shaq at #2, but it's sadly true. And Bynum at #3 is a freaking joke, right? But when you think about it, it might be true.

[Lars]

Artest, Jameer, Duncan, Bynum and West are all too high. Jefferson way too low.

[Brazil]

Not such a terrible list.

PG you can argue on the 2. TP and 3. DW but the rest is consistent
SG I'd put redd and Allen before VC, JET would be my 10
SF Carmelo and Artest are too high, Howard and Marion > RJ ?
C AJ too low bynum much too high

[BlackSwordsMan]

no spounolis? wtf!

[LakerHater]

These rankings are "expert" picks alright.

#3 Bynum? What the hell?
LOL You think Pau Gasol is better than Dirk?

Gasol is a PF!?!??

[dirk4mvp]

This list is fucking retarded.

[jag]

Even with his injuries TD is still gettin respect.

[resistanze]

no spounolis? wtf!

The list IS LIES!

[jag]

horrible, horrible list..

it should be IMO..

His list didn't consist of any players that are currently injured....so why should that be the list??

[ambchang]

It is absolutely outrageous Derek Fisher didn't make top 5 point guard.

[IronMexican]

Bynum in the top 5 is funny. I hope it doesn't inflate his ego. Dirk > Pau. I'd take Pau over KG, though.

[ffadicted]

:lol Man this list is gonna piss Spur and mavfan off sooooo much.

Duncan as #1, Tony as #2, Ginobili only left off cuz of injury, and jefferson cracking the list.

I am quite ok with this

[sribb43]

Gasol #2..... Bullshit

[Killakobe81]

I think my personal favorite is Bynum over Al Jefferson.

Bynum outplayed Al Jefferson the last time they played so that is not far-fetched but based on total acomplishmets I agree if healthy AL jeff is better

BUT AL jeff is not a real center he just cant defend PF's ...Id rather have a healthy Bynum even though La jeff is better for defensive presence

[KidCongo]

Just did a little points system ranking based of the original list. 10 points for No.1 rank-1 point for No.10 rank etc. Take it FWIW

08/09 Season:
Spurs-19
Cavs-10
Lakers-27
Magic-23
Celtics-23
Suns-17
Nuggets-17
Mavs-15

09/10 Season:
Spurs-20 (Without Manu)
Cavs-19
Lakers-33
Magic-25
Celtics-23 (Ranking doesnt change but healthy KG back)
Suns-8 :lol
Mavs-18
Nuggets-17

Going by his list and these scores Lakers do have the most talent. Then the Magic, Spurs, Celtics have comparable talent levels. Cavs improved with Shaq to a Mavs and Nuggets level. However, this doesn't include 6th men and the good role players on each team that get the job done.

[Killakobe81]

Really Duncan should be moved to center on these lists ...really duncan cant chase dirk or amare around and Blake Griffin would give him fits ...
AND Are you seriously putting mcdyess or Blair on Dwight howard, Bynum, Shaq Nene or any decent center? Really?
Duncan is a center get over it. Yao is out Duncan should be the starting center for the West in the next all-star game and either 1st or 2nd team all nba at center ...
C - Duncan PF Dirk SF Melo SG Kobe PG Paul or Williams
C - Howard PF KG(healthy) SF LBJ SG Wade PG Rose (by default)

To me Duncan is like Rod woodson who was All world at corner ghot a bit older then became a Pro-bowl safety. Duncan is the post offense and gaurds the best post post player that = center in my book. Duncan has secured his legacy at PF now it's time to dominate Shaq and Howard to end all debate about who is the best big man of the 2000's and it's Tim.

[j-money24]

Bynum outplayed Al Jefferson the last time they played so that is not far-fetched but based on total acomplishmets I agree if healthy AL jeff is better

BUT AL jeff is not a real center he just cant defend PF's ...Id rather have a healthy Bynum even though La jeff is better for defensive presence

Jefferson is the main guy on the team while Bynum is like the 4th option. Jefferson was getting double teamed, triple teamed while bynum takes advantage of the Kobe and Gasol double teams.

[carrao45]

Links: I Got 50! (http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/the-links/2009/07/links-i-got-50/)
by Lang Whitaker
SLAM

A couple of days ago, the guys from Basket, which is definitely one of my two favorite basketball magazines from Germany, hit me with an email. They were assembling a panel of international experts to rank the top 10 NBA players for each position (PG, SG, SF, PF, C = 50 players) for their next issue. By German rules, I qualified as an NBA expert, so they sent along a list of the top few dozen at each position, asked me to rank them, and added a few caveats:

- Don’t mix up the positions, please use their list and positions.
- No rookies.
- It’s not about value for money.
- It doesn’t matter if the player was good two years ago or if he has potential - it’s about today.

So…here’s how I ranked the top ten NBA players at each position. Surely there won’t be anyone out there who disagrees with me, right? Apologies go to whoever it pleases. Here’s my Top 50…

POINT GUARDS

1. Chris Paul (New Orleans Hornets)
2. Tony Parker (San Antonio Spurs) Deron should be here
3. Deron Williams (Utah Jazz) TP should be here
4. Jameer Nelson (Orlando Magic)
5. Derrick Rose (Chicago Bulls)
6. Rajon Rondo (Boston Celtics)
7. Chauncey Billups (Denver Nuggets)
8. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns)
9. Jason Kidd (Dallas Mavericks)
10. Andre Miller (Philadelphia 76ers)

EXPLANATION:
I wasn’t sure what to do with Gilbert Arenas. When he’s healthy, he’s probably top half of that list, but since this list is for today, and we have no idea how Gilbert’s knee is right now, I left him off. Mo Williams also almost cracked my list, but I put this together thinking if I were starting a franchise today and needed a point guard, these are the guys I’d go after first. Mo would probably be number 11 on my list. Or 12, because Devin Harris was also just left off. I know people will probably quibble with Andre Miller making my list, but I’ve always appreciated his game — never the most athletic guy, but he’s really solid and, in the right system, he understands how to run a team. Same with Baron Davis, who I couldn’t find room for, either.

SHOOTING GUARDS

1. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers)
2. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat)
3. Brandon Roy (Portland Trail Blazers)
4. Joe Johnson (Atlanta Hawks)
5. Vince Carter (Orlando Magic)
6. Michael Redd (Milwaukee Bucks)
7. Ray Allen (Boston Celtics)
8. Jason Terry (Dallas Mavericks)
9. Ben Gordon (Detroit Pistons)
10. Allen Iverson (Detroit Pistons) :lmao

EXPLANATION:
Calm down, Sacramento fans. Kevin Martin scores a lot of points, but he doesn’t play defense. At all. Also, he’s missed 52 games the last two seasons, and if I’m building my team around someone, it’s not going to be him. GINOBILI! would have made the list, but with his recent injuries I felt safer leaving him off this time. Same with T-Mac. Iverson? He averaged 17 and 5 last year for Detroit, and when the Pistons let him do his thing, they were still a tough team to beat.

SMALL FORWARDS

1. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers)
2. Carmelo Anthony (Denver Nuggets)
3. Kevin Durant (Oklahoma City Thunder)
4. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics)
5. Ron Artest (L.A. Lakers) Granger here
6. Danny Granger (Indiana Pacers) Artest here
7. Hedo Turkoglu (Toronto Raptors)
8. Shawn Marion (Miami Heat)
9. Josh Howard (Dallas Mavericks)
10. Richard Jefferson (San Antonio Spurs)

EXPLANATION:
I thought this was the toughest category, by far. At different points I had both Andre Iguodala and Caron Butler on this list, but ended up dropping them. There’s also a lot of younger guys on the come-up (Al Thornton, Luol Deng, Rudy Gay, Trevor Ariza) who could crack this list a year from now.

POWER FORWARDS

1. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) Even with messed up knee's he still deserves this spot
2. Pau Gasol (Los Angeles Lakers)
3. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks)
4. Kevin Garnett (Boston Celtics)
5. Chris Bosh (Toronto Raptors)
6. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns)
7. Carlos Boozer (Utah Jazz)
8. David West (New Orleans Hornets)
9. Rashard Lewis (Orlando Magic)
10. Josh Smith (Atlanta Hawks)

EXPLANATION:
There may be some quibbling with some of these guys being listed as power forwards, but I didn’t come up with the list. That said, I found it interesting that Boozer was my generously-rated seventh-best power forward in the NBA and he’s still on target to get a $14 million-a-year deal next season. And so many teams are talking about Bosh as a max guy…really? I left off Elton Brand because of his injuries. I left off Charlie Villanueva because he’s not one of the ten best power forwards in the NBA, although someone probably should have explained that to Joe Dumars a while ago. The ten spot came down to Josh Smith and Kenyon Martin, but I went with Smoove because he’s younger and sturdier.

CENTERS

1. Dwight Howard (Orlando Magic)
2. Shaquille O’Neal (Cleveland Cavaliers)
3. Andrew Bynum (Los Angeles Lakers)
4. Al Horford (Atlanta Hawks)
5. Al Jefferson (Minnesota Timberwolves)
6. Mehmet Okur (Utah Jazz)
7. Nene (Denver Nuggets)
8. Brad Miller (Chicago Bulls)
9. Marcus Camby (Los Angeles Clippers)
10. Tyson Chandler (New Orleans Hornets)
The fact that Miller and Camby and Okur are good to be top 10 is sad, what is heppening to the center position?:depressed

EXPLANATION:
I let off Yao because his foot exploded, otherwise he was my definite number 2 on this list. At the same time, I broke my own rule about the injuries to include Al Jefferson on this list, because the top ten centers were really looking weak and I was afraid I’d have to include Jermaine O’Neal or Chris Kaman or Emeka Okafor. And we can’t be having that.

[YellowFever]

Bullshit, Sasha Vujicic should be on the list.

[redzero]

Gasol is not better than Dirk.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

The other lists aren't too bad (although I have a few objections), but the list of centres is ATROCIOUS.

1. Dwight Howard (Orlando Magic)
2. Shaquille O’Neal (Cleveland Cavaliers)
3. Andrew Bynum (Los Angeles Lakers)
4. Al Horford (Atlanta Hawks)
5. Al Jefferson (Minnesota Timberwolves)
6. Mehmet Okur (Utah Jazz)
7. Nene (Denver Nuggets)
8. Brad Miller (Chicago Bulls)
9. Marcus Camby (Los Angeles Clippers)
10. Tyson Chandler (New Orleans Hornets)"

Jefferson is clearly second on that list, Horford is third, Nene is currently a better player than Bynum, and Okafor is better than the bottom 3. How the fuck does Chandler beat out Okafor, Perkins or Lopez? Chandler hasn't done shit since his 12/12 season. Drop the bottom 3 for those guys.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

My favorite is Jameer Nelson and Rajon Rondo over Chauncey Billups.

Yeah, totally agree with that too.

Rondo is the 4th best PG in the league behind CP3/TP/DW, who are pretty even really. I've seen each of them beat each of the others on a given day. And Chauncey is 5th - he knows how to run a team, he leads the locker room, and he's a clutch shooter.

[SonOfAGun]

Al Jefferson, I feel for you man.

No one gives you love. GTFO Minnesota.

[Allanon]

I've said it all along, Al Jefferson is an awesome offensive force. But until you actually watch him play, you won't realize his defense is easily one of the worst among Centers. Bynum's not as good offensively but he's way better defensively than Jefferson.

Al Jefferson's defense makes Amare look like a lockdown defender. Look at the point differentials on 82games, you'll see Jefferson gives up almost as many points as he scores to the other Center.

Yes, it's really that bad.

I'm surprised Manu didn't make the list, maybe due to injuries. I think Tony Parker last year was better than CP3 offensively but CP3's knack for drawing a foul makes him better defensively.

[mystargtr34]

Call me a homer but, Josh Howard, Shawn Marion and Ron Artest > Jefferson? I dont know about that.

2 of those guys cant create their own shot, OR create for others. The other one is a career 40% guy. All 3 are nutcases, and all have slipped considerably defensively.

[Chieflion]

I've said it all along, Al Jefferson is an awesome offensive force. But until you actually watch him play, you won't realize his defense is easily one of the worst among Centers. Bynum's not as good offensively but he's way better defensively than Jefferson.

Al Jefferson's defense makes Amare look like a lockdown defender. Look at the point differentials on 82games, you'll see Jefferson gives up almost as many points as he scores to the other Center.

Yes, it's really that bad.

I'm surprised Manu didn't make the list, maybe due to injuries. I think Tony Parker last year was better than CP3 offensively but CP3's flopping so as to draw a foul makes him better defensively.
Fixed.


To add on, Why in the world is Andre Iguodala and Caron Butler not on the list for SF? Everyone knows Iggy and Caron are easily better than Shawn Marion and better than Josh Howard by a little bit as they were the top guys on their team.

[KidCongo]

Fixed.


To add on, Why in the world is Andre Iguodala and Caron Butler not on the list for SF? Everyone knows Iggy and Caron are easily better than Shawn Marion and better than Josh Howard by a little bit as they were the top guys on their team.

Iggy should deffo be there, aswell as Caron, especially over Marion.

[tonski17]

j.terry,redd over manu????

[Ghazi]

Horrible list.

Jameer Nelson has half a season of hot shooting and is suddenly a top 5 PG? No.
Dirk is the best PF in the world. Duncan is a center for fucks sake. You're telling me Duncan is the 4 while McDyess is the 5? Nope. Gasol > Dirk is laughable too, and is simply a "trendy" or homer pick.
Devin Harris is a top 10 PG.
The omission of Iguodala/Ginobili from the 2 guards is terrible.
Butler is a top 10 small forward definitely
Bynum is a top 6-7 center or so... 3rd is just way too high.

This person has no credibility at all, or simply fails to evaluate talent

[Ghazi]

Okafor is a top 10 center DEFINITELY as well.

[Ghazi]

3rd best since Duncan is a center.

One more thing, I love how his criteria for PG's was if I'm starting a franchise today, yet Miller/Billups/Kidd/Nash are ahead of Harris. Hell, if thats the criteria, Westbrook and Sessions should be top 10 point guards too...

[spursfan1000]

Chauncey Billups > Rajon Rondo

Ray Allen > VC and Redd

Granger > Artest

Andre is a top 10 SF and Marion should be tooken off

[spursfan1000]

3rd best since Duncan is a center.

One more thing, I love how his criteria for PG's was if I'm starting a franchise today, yet Miller/Billups/Kidd/Nash are ahead of Harris. Hell, if thats the criteria, Westbrook and Sessions should be top 10 point guards too...

He also said or if he just needed a PG

[HarlemHeat37]

Well TBH, Timmy was obviously a C this year..Bonner at C?..no..

[Hornets1]

Artest, Jameer, Duncan, Bynum and West are all too high. Jefferson way too low.

Who should have been #8 at PF in your opinion?

I agree w/ artest and nelson. I think Devin Harris is better than nelson and granger is better than artest.

All in all, pretty good list.

[HarlemHeat37]

David West isn't low at all..

[Hornets1]

My favorite is Jameer Nelson and Rajon Rondo over Chauncey Billups.

I agree w/ that.

BTW, Great sig! Does GiG stand for grace is gone?

[JustBlaze]

Shit list.

[Ghazi]

West isn't a top 10 power forward, and Chandler isn't a top 10 center.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Tim Duncan is a primarily a Power Forward Just like KG, Kevin Mchale and Hakeem


Hakeem played center for most of his career......Sampson was the only reason he ever played PF.

But I agree that Duncan is a power forward. He's played with a center for most of his career. Last year was the first year that he for all intensive purposes was the center.

[TheSpursFNRule]

the list isn't bad but seriously andrew bynum at 3? he is so bad.

[cobbler]

how the fuck is pau gasol ranked higher than dirk? bullshit.

Because he is better than Dirk.

[dirk4mvp]

Because he is better than Dirk.

lol

[cobbler]

lol

Not talking career.... just last season. Their numbers are almost identical but Gasol came up bigger and more clutch in the playoffs so I give him the nod. Clearly Dirk is the better player over their careers.... to this point.

[23LeBronJames23]

So The Starting 5 are:

PG: Chris Paul
SG: Kobe Bryant
SF: LeBron James
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Dwight Howard

[dirk4mvp]

Not talking career.... just last season. Their numbers are almost identical but Gasol came up bigger and more clutch in the playoffs so I give him the nod. Clearly Dirk is the better player over their careers.... to this point.

Their numbers weren't almost identical. You're a dumbass.

[Ghazi]

Not talking career.... just last season. Their numbers are almost identical but Gasol came up bigger and more clutch in the playoffs so I give him the nod. Clearly Dirk is the better player over their careers.... to this point.

Dirk was AMAZING in the playoffs especially the Denver series, gtfo outta here w/ that shit. If by more clutch you mean playing on a better team and along side a top 3 player, then yes, yes Gasol was more "clutch".

[Ghazi]

FWIW this wrtier's opinion and cobbler's opinion validate MY opinion that was mocked a few days ago. Dirk is underrated.

[Rogue]

The top TEN best centers in today's NBA league are more likely to be: Dwright, Okafor, Chandler, Camby, Z, Shaq, Damp, Kaman, Bynum, Al Jefferson. Tim Duncan is probably the 2nd best PF since he is mostly considered PF by spurs fans, while he would definitely be included in the top 3 if the center list contained him, only behind Shaq and Dwright in this area. Sheed and Dyess are more of power forwards than centers, and they can't make the top 10 at either spots anyways. Yao could have been a top 10 if he wasn't done, the positive scenario is Yao comes back to play in the league for some more years like Ratliff. While it's also very possible Yao retires in 2 years when his outrageous expires.

[cobbler]

Their numbers weren't almost identical. You're a dumbass.


They look pretty close to me.... proving it is you who is the real dumbass.

It appears our 2nd option is better than your 1st.


MINS - Dirk: 36 Pau: 37 equal

FG% - Dirk: 47.9 Pau: 56.7 adv Pau

FT% - Dirk: 89 Pau: 78 adv Dirk

REB - Dirk: 8.4 Pau: 9.6 adv Pau

AST - Dirk: 2.4 Pau: 3.5 adv Pau

TO - Dirk: 1.9 Pau: 2.5 adv Dirk

ST - Dirk: 0.8 Pau: 0.5 equal

PF - Dirk: 2.2 Pau: 2.4 equal

Pts - Dirk: 25.9 Pau: 18.9 adv Pau (see FG%)

[cobbler]

Dirk was AMAZING in the playoffs especially the Denver series, gtfo outta here w/ that shit. If by more clutch you mean playing on a better team and along side a top 3 player, then yes, yes Gasol was more "clutch".

I agree, Dirk was amazing in the playoffs. However, Gasol had better numbers. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[HarlemHeat37]

Dirk would look a lot better too, if he was playing with Kobe..

[Ghazi]

agree to disagree cobbs, agree to disagree.


however in what universe is 19 > 26? Holding Dirk's FG % against him when it comes to scoring ability is dumb, FG% is one category... PTS is another... by that faulty logic Pau is better in the PTS category than Kobe/Wade/Lebron too... yeahhh not sure if I agree w/ that.

way I see it, the best PF in the world allowed the Mavs to win 50 and get to the 2nd round. Pau in place of Dirk to me would = 45 wins and 9th place.

[cobbler]

agree to disagree cobbs, agree to disagree.


however in what universe is 19 > 26? Holding Dirk's FG % against him when it comes to scoring ability is dumb, FG% is one category... PTS is another... by that faulty logic Pau is better in the PTS category than Kobe/Wade/Lebron too... yeahhh not sure if I agree w/ that.

way I see it, the best PF in the world allowed the Mavs to win 50 and get to the 2nd round. Pau in place of Dirk to me would = 45 wins and 9th place.

Its not rocket science Ghazi. Dirk is the #1 option for the Mavs and averaged 20 shots a game to get his 26. Gasol was the #2 option and only averaged 13shots to get his 19. That's where shooting % comes in.

If Pau averaged 20 shots a game he would score 28+ a game not including the free throws that would also come on some of the 44% of the shots missed.

If you want to go strictly by points then I'll give the nod to Dirk in that catagory. My original comment was the Pau and Dirk had almost identical years and i stand by it.

However, if say Kope, Lebron, or Wade averaged 45 pts on 40 shots would you really say they were a better scorer than Dirk who averaged 35 on on 25 shots?

It just goes to show you how points per game can be deceiving. We have Kobe to show us quite often. There are many nights he gets 40 and people are awed...only to find out he took 30+ shots to do so.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's also obvious that efficiency will rise as your offensive responsibility diminishes, assuming that you're still in the same form physically..

You obviously can't deny that it's much easier for Gasol than it is for Dirk, considering the players around them..

Gasol's efficiency has skyrocketed since joining the Lakers, and it's obvious why..he didn't suddenly become a much better player overnight..

[cobbler]

It's also obvious that efficiency will rise as your offensive responsibility diminishes, assuming that you're still in the same form physically..

You obviously can't deny that it's much easier for Gasol than it is for Dirk, considering the players around them..

Gasol's efficiency has skyrocketed since joining the Lakers, and it's obvious why..he didn't suddenly become a much better player overnight..

I wouldn't consider 4% increase as skyrocketing. By that logic, Gasols career FG% of 52 is remarkably better than Dirks 47! His responsiblity is basically the same as well. He has a career avg of 13.5 shots a game..... and 12.5 as a laker. Its a give and take thing as well if you ever played the game. Some players are more efficient with limited touches than others. Others are the complete opposite.

There are all kinds of factors that play into effeciency. Again, my original post was to point out that Dirk and Pau had very similar years and i was called a dumbass for even suggesting it. I think i have proved my point.

Although I can see your point in thinking it might be easier for Pau than dirk considering the quality of teamates, i dont think its as drastic as one may think. Dirk plays more of a perimeter game and guys his size are reluctant to go outside and find it dificult to guard him there. Pau often has to play center and bang with the bigs. Not to mention, it's got to be pure hell to play with the tyrant kobe and all his character flaws, no? :lol

For the Lakers needs... I'd choose Pau over Dirk anyday.

[HarlemHeat37]

I completely agree that Gasol fits the Lakers better than Dirk, no question there..

I don't know what your original point was, I didn't look back that far..I was just commenting on Dirk vs. Gasol..

FG% is unfair to Dirk IMO, since one of his main strengths as a player is his 3-point shooting/ability to stretch the floor, and his FT shooting..TS% is a much better measure IMO..

I would expect Gasol to have a higher % regardless though, since he obviously plays closer to the basket..Dirk's strength has always been his outside to inside game, which causes instant mismatches, and that should always be considered in these types of arguments..the fact that he's such a unique player is his main strength in arguments..

Gasol is obviously on the same level as Dirk though, I don't think anybody can argue otherwise..Dirk is a tough guy to judge though, since he's never had a legit #2 man to take pressure off him, and it would be interesting to see how he would do as a #2 next to a guy of Kobe's caliber..

[dirk4mvp]

Pau as a number 1 option is 0-12 in the playoffs. One of those series was Dirk giving him the rusty pipe treatment.


Stop experimenting with hard drugs.

[Culburn369]

Pau as a number 1 option is 0-12 in the playoffs. One of those series was Dirk giving him the rusty pipe treatment.

But, then Dirk gave it all back when he apologized to Pau for beating him. Dirk is a pussycat. He's like the Alan Alda of the NBA.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk > Pau

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's not even an argument, Dirk > Pau.

[Culburn369]

dirk4MVP is convinced?...check

DUNCAN is convinced?...check

Dirk Nowitski is convinced?...nope

[dirk4mvp]

dirk4MVP is convinced?...check

DUNCAN is convinced?...check

Dirk Nowitski is convinced?...nope

Dirk Nowitzki was also under the impression that a few guys on the Nuggets could contain him from scoring. He was wrong about that too.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao when arguing Gasol vs. Dirk, Laker fans glorify the hell out of Gasol and say having Kobe on his team doesn't open up anything and he'd be just as good on his own, but then they'll move onto a Kobe vs. Jordan argument and say Gasol was shit before he played with Kobe and Kobe made him what he is.

[sonic21]

Dirk is top 10 PF of all time.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk is top 10 PF of all time.

We know.

[mavs>spurs2]

Dirk is the best PF in the league. This list is bullshit

[jdev82]

centers are a joke. horford? bynum? dwight howard? what the fuck. shaq, hakeem, the admiral, big pat and the rest would be rolling over in their graves.

[cobbler]

:lmao when arguing Gasol vs. Dirk, Laker fans glorify the hell out of Gasol and say having Kobe on his team doesn't open up anything and he'd be just as good on his own, but then they'll move onto a Kobe vs. Jordan argument and say Gasol was shit before he played with Kobe and Kobe made him what he is.

Gasols numbers pre and post Kobe are very similar. Look it up. He's just winning now because he's not on a scub team so he's getting noticed more. I never said Gasol was better than Dirk. I said just the opposite as Dirks career is better than Gasols up to now. What I did say was, last year, their numbers were almost identical and they were. I think Gasol had a better year than Dirk last year and it is definetely arguable. I also think his play is a better fit for the Laker system.

How that gets into a Kobe vs MJ argument is beyond me. I have never understood all that to begin with. :bang

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Gasols numbers pre and post Kobe are very similar. Look it up. He's just winning now because he's not on a scub team so he's getting noticed more. I never said Gasol was better than Dirk. I said just the opposite as Dirks career is better than Gasols up to now. What I did say was, last year, their numbers were almost identical and they were. I think Gasol had a better year than Dirk last year and it is definetely arguable. I also think his play is a better fit for the Laker system.

How that gets into a Kobe vs MJ argument is beyond me. I have never understood all that to begin with. :bang


My mistake then I thought you were saying Gasol is better than Dirk, and I agree Gasol is a better fit in the Lakers' offense.

However, one reason I was willing to concede that I was wrong about Kobe not being able to win as the best player on his team was because of how much better Gasol has been with Kobe. During the 2007-2008 season, he shot 50.1% on Memphis, and then shot 58.9% after being traded to LA. That is a significant improvement.

Dirk would undoubtedly shoot a higher percentage if he played 2nd fiddle to a top 3 player that makes his teammates better.

[cobbler]

My mistake then I thought you were saying Gasol is better than Dirk, and I agree Gasol is a better fit in the Lakers' offense.

However, one reason I was willing to concede that I was wrong about Kobe not being able to win as the best player on his team was because of how much better Gasol has been with Kobe. During the 2007-2008 season, he shot 50.1% on Memphis, and then shot 58.9% after being traded to LA. That is a significant improvement.

Dirk would undoubtedly shoot a higher percentage if he played 2nd fiddle to a top 3 player that makes his teammates better.

That is the year he was traded. He has hovered in the 51-54% his career in Memphis and 56% his whole year with Lakers. Were taling making one more shot in his 13-14 attempts. It's not a HUGE difference. I think he was tanking a bit in 2007 and when he got to Lakers he excelled due to the whole "experience". He came back down to earth a tad in 2009. Of course its going to be easier playing with a better team. The gap in shooting percentage between Dirk and Pau is a lot larger than the gap between Pau pre and post Laker trade.

They're both ugly! :lol

[Spurs da champs]

How is Lamarcus Aldridge not even on that list?

[ElNono]

I was looking at their '2009 updated 50 greatest of all time' list the other day. They had Duncan at 8, Kobe at 12 and Hakeem at 13. Nash was number 50.
At that point I tossed the magazine back on the rack.

[redzero]

To claim that Gasol would score 25+ points as the number one option is retarded. He didn't do it a single time when he played with the Grizzlies.

[Henke]

Pau as a number 1 option is 0-12 in the playoffs. One of those series was Dirk giving him the rusty pipe treatment.


Stop experimenting with hard drugs.

:tu:tu

This list is a fucking joke.

[VivaPopovich]

i'm surprised they did the right thing and rank tim duncan #1 Pf like they should

since duncan isn't "hip hop" enough for SLAM

[cobbler]

To claim that Gasol would score 25+ points as the number one option is retarded. He didn't do it a single time when he played with the Grizzlies.

I didn't say as the number one option. You should learn to read. He was the number one option in Memphis and averaged the same amount of shots as the #2 option in LA. The comment was he would get the points averaging 20 shots and that is all about percentage. Most people can do the simple math there. So reading comprehension and math aren't your strong suits.... it's ok. You'll find something you're good at. :lol

[Supergirl]

how the fuck is pau gasol ranked higher than dirk? bullshit.

More importantly, how are Pau and Dirk both ahead of KG? KG wipes the floor with both those guys.

[cobbler]

More importantly, how are Pau and Dirk both ahead of KG? KG wipes the floor with both those guys.

In case you didn't notice... KG didn't play much of the season. Not to mention that Pau actually outplayed KG this year when they did meet.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KG is no longer the top tier player he once was. Yeah he's still arguably the best help defender and pick and roll defender in the NBA, but his offense is a complete joke these days.

[Ghazi]

More importantly, how are Pau and Dirk both ahead of KG? KG wipes the floor with both those guys.

No, no he doesn't.

[redzero]

I didn't say as the number one option. You should learn to read. He was the number one option in Memphis and averaged the same amount of shots as the #2 option in LA. The comment was he would get the points averaging 20 shots and that is all about percentage. Most people can do the simple math there. So reading comprehension and math aren't your strong suits.... it's ok. You'll find something you're good at. :lol

Yeah, but he didn't average 20 shots, so your point is moot.

[cobbler]

Yeah, but he didn't average 20 shots, so your point is moot.

Learn to read... it's not that difficult.

[redzero]

Learn to read... it's not that difficult.

So, what was stopping Gasol from getting 25+ points per game in his first six years?

[cobbler]

So, what was stopping Gasol from getting 25+ points per game in his first six years?

Could be a number of things. Coaching, the system, point guard play, no desire to be the go to guy. Who knows? I certainly wasn't watching Memphis all that much then. Were you? The facts are he averaged around 13 shots a game. If he averaged the 20 shots that Dirk and other players that score 25+ he would have done the same. Actually, he probably would have scored more. Dirk has a shooting percentage more in line with shooting guards as he plays more on the perimeter. Pau plays more an inside game and therefore has the higher % that is more in line with power forwards and centers.

[Sportstudi]

They look pretty close to me.... proving it is you who is the real dumbass.

It appears our 2nd option is better than your 1st.


MINS - Dirk: 36 Pau: 37 equal

FG% - Dirk: 47.9 Pau: 56.7 adv Pau

FT% - Dirk: 89 Pau: 78 adv Dirk

REB - Dirk: 8.4 Pau: 9.6 adv Pau

AST - Dirk: 2.4 Pau: 3.5 adv Pau

TO - Dirk: 1.9 Pau: 2.5 adv Dirk

ST - Dirk: 0.8 Pau: 0.5 equal

PF - Dirk: 2.2 Pau: 2.4 equal

Pts - Dirk: 25.9 Pau: 18.9 adv Pau (see FG%)

You are just dumb.

[dirk4mvp]

damn cobbler, why didn't you just tell us field goal % was the be all end all stat that decides which player is better? It'd save a lot of arguing on this board.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

damn cobbler, why didn't you just tell us field goal % was the be all end all stat that decides which player is better? It'd save a lot of arguing on this board.


If that's the case then Gasol > Kobe


:lmao Kobe can't win a title as the best player on his team :lmao:lmao

[cobbler]

If that's the case then Gasol > Kobe


:lmao Kobe can't win a title as the best player on his team :lmao:lmao

He was every bit as responsible for the Lakers season last year as Kobe was.... and much more consistent.

[cobbler]

You are just dumb.

Ouuuuch... I am so hurt.

Facts are if Gasol took the amount of shots Dirk does...he'd score more.

[cobbler]

damn cobbler, why didn't you just tell us field goal % was the be all end all stat that decides which player is better? It'd save a lot of arguing on this board.

Show me where i said FG % was the be all. I said several times that over their careers Dirk is the better player. I believe Gasol had a better year than Dirk last year and actually only said their numbers were similar. You called me a dumbass for suggesting that. Look at the numbers. They look pretty similar to me. So it appears... it is you who is the dumbass. :lmao

[redzero]

Ouuuuch... I am so hurt.

Facts are if Gasol took the amount of shots Dirk does...he'd score more.

Bigs can't just take a lot of shots. If they do, their numbers would go down.

[cobbler]

Bigs can't just take a lot of shots. If they do, their numbers would go down.

I think Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Akeem, etc etc could make an argument otherwise.

[dirk4mvp]

Ok so now your stupid ass is throwing Gasol into that class.

[cobbler]

Ok so now your stupid ass is throwing Gasol into that class.

Go away... your ignorance is troublesome. You offer nothing of value. You offer no retort other than slander. You are so deserving to be a Mav's fan and wallow in your mediocrity.

[dirk4mvp]

I get it, you put Gasol in the same class of players you mentioned before.