Pistons 1988 nba champions

[sonic21]

Game 6 officiating was bad, clearly there was no foul on Kareem.

Pistons with the 3-peat :toast

gaVGr5ikpeE

[Nahtanoj]

Not a foul.

[Dunc n Dave]

Wow! That was a WEAK foul by today's standard; definitely a no call in today's NBA.
Were they really that fragile in the 80s? And lakaluva thinks the 80s Lakers could beat the 90s Bulls?:rollin

[z0sa]

Lakers have had preferential treatment since the 1970's.

[BRHornet45]

sons this is nothing new ... typical rigged NBA bullshit

[rjv]

i just remember kareem always looking like he was about to have an aneurism every time he was called for a foul. like he was about to go scanners.

[dirk4mvp]

i just remember kareem always looking like he was about to have an aneurism every time he was called for a foul. like he was about to go scanners.

Kinda like Duncan?

[jacobdrj]

Had they won in 1988, I doubt they would have had the drive to win in 1990... But the Dantley team was superior.

[Lakers999]

Game 6 officiating was bad, clearly there was no foul on Kareem.

Pistons with the 3-peat :toast

gaVGr5ikpeE


FAIL!!!! :wgaf:

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

Not a foul, like this one?
UxGrzi-qq_g

[Dunc n Dave]

Not a foul, like this one?
UxGrzi-qq_g

LMFAO @ Laker fan comparing a REGULAR SEASON game to an NBA Finals game!!!
:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[JamStone]

It's ok though, because Magic faked he was injured in the 1989 Finals so the Pistons could win it.

Thanks, Magic.

[BUMP]

did they lift weights in the 80's? serious question

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

LMFAO @ Laker fan comparing a REGULAR SEASON game to an NBA Finals game!!!
:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

LMAO at @ spurs fan complaining of something that happened 21 years ago.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

LMAO at @ spurs fan complaining of something that happened 21 years ago.


LMAO @ Laker fans taking this thread seriously.

[Laker-fan-in-SanAnto]

Lmao @ the suns 2007 championship thread


J/k don't take it seriously!

[Dunc n Dave]

It was an obvious foul by Bill on the GOAT. You are one very stupid person if you think my 80's Lakers would not have beaten the Bulls. We had too many weapons. And Magic was a better leader than Jordan... much better.

Magic couldn't carry Jordan's jockstrap. He proved that in the 92 Finals. The 80's Lakers were tissue paper soft compared to teh 90s Bulls.

That's like saying the Suns from 2005 to 2007 would beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers because they had "more weapons" than those Lakers did. Shaq and Kobe were the best at their positions, like Jordan and Pippen, so it doesn't matter what else the Lakers had in the 80s, since nothing they had matched up to those two.

Your argument for the 80s Lakers vs. 90s Bulls is an EPIC FAIL!

[BUMP]

Magic couldn't carry Jordan's jockstrap. He proved that in the 92 Finals. The 80's Lakers were tissue paper soft compared to teh 90s Bulls.

That's like saying the Suns from 2005 to 2007 would beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers because they had "more weapons" than those Lakers did. Shaq and Kobe were the best at their positions, like Jordan and Pippen, so it doesn't matter what else the Lakers had in the 80s, since nothing they had matched up to those two.

Your argument for the 80s Lakers vs. 90s Bulls is an EPIC FAIL!

Not so sure about that.

I think it would be a very even series.

Who do the Bulls have that would even slow down Kareem? Exactly.

Pippen could slow down Magic, but James Worthy would also give their front court a headache

[DrHouse]

Magic couldn't carry Jordan's jockstrap. He proved that in the 92 Finals. The 80's Lakers were tissue paper soft compared to teh 90s Bulls.

That's like saying the Suns from 2005 to 2007 would beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers because they had "more weapons" than those Lakers did. Shaq and Kobe were the best at their positions, like Jordan and Pippen, so it doesn't matter what else the Lakers had in the 80s, since nothing they had matched up to those two.

Your argument for the 80s Lakers vs. 90s Bulls is an EPIC FAIL!


http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/atlarge/epic_fail.jpg

[DrHouse]

Not so sure about that.

I think it would be a very even series.

Who do the Bulls have that would even slow down Kareem? Exactly.

Pippen could slow down Magic, but James Worthy would also give their front court a headache

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Scott....it's not even fair how much talent was on the same team.

I have a hard time believing Jordan's Bulls could beat the Showtime Lakers in their heyday.

[IronMexican]

lol obsessed

15 rings fagot.

[BUMP]

Jordan is without a doubt in my mind the best player ever.

Especially what he did with that team, but the team itself was not untouchable. They really didn't go against many great team in their era and they definitely weren't the best ever.

I think people see Jordan going 6/6 in the Finals and think of him as some sort of untouchable deity. That team could've definitely been beaten by Showtime with all the talent they had

[KSeal]

MJ's Bulls could beat the Showtime Lakers just like the 09 Cavs could beat the 01 Lakers :rollin

[carrao45]

Wow! That was a WEAK foul by today's standard; definitely a no call in today's NBA.
Were they really that fragile in the 80s? And lakaluva thinks the 80s Lakers could beat the 90s Bulls?:rollin

Talk to anyone who saw both era's, and they know that the Showtime Lakers and the Celtics of that era would have curbstomped the 90's Bulls. It was obvious the Celtics and Lakers of that era were superior to the Bulls.

And it's very stupid of you to assume the 90's Bulls were better than the Showtime Lakers because of ONE foul call made by a Referee

[carrao45]

did they lift weights in the 80's? serious question

Nope

[carrao45]

Magic couldn't carry Jordan's jockstrap. He proved that in the 92 Finals. The 80's Lakers were tissue paper soft compared to teh 90s Bulls.

That's like saying the Suns from 2005 to 2007 would beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers because they had "more weapons" than those Lakers did. Shaq and Kobe were the best at their positions, like Jordan and Pippen, so it doesn't matter what else the Lakers had in the 80s, since nothing they had matched up to those two.

Your argument for the 80s Lakers vs. 90s Bulls is an EPIC FAIL!

Do your homework assface. Jordan played Drexler And the Blazers in 92.

Jordan beat a team with Vlade Divac as it's starting center in 1991. That 1991 team was Magic's Lakers minus Kareem who had already retired.


Talk matchups? How would Chicago have defended Kareem? Or Worthy? Or Byron Scott? The Lakers had a DPOY in Cooper who would have made Jordan work to get his.

Kareem would have killed Chicago, as would Bryon, as would Worthy, as would Cooper, as would Nixoon, as would Jamaal Wilkes.


And :lmao the idiot comparing the Nash Suns to the Showtime Lakers

[carrao45]

sons this is nothing new ... typical rigged NBA bullshit

So why watch the NBA? why be enough of a fan to post on an NBA fan website to talk about basketball and the NBA?

[Killakobe81]

This revisonist history stuff is crap ...ok
Suns were the 2007 Champs (stern ruined it)
Spurs in 2004 were the champs (dfish ruined it)
Mavs in 2006 (Ref conspiracy ...though I admit some of it WAS bad)
Bulls in '94 (refs stole it)
Lakers in '89 (bad hamstrings ruined it)
Lakers in'86 (bad bounce ruined it the rim was too soft!!!)

Funnything is those supporting whining about refs are some of the same ones that ridicule the Suns beef with Stern.
In the NBA these things tend to even out unless you the Clippers but I hope Blake Griffin is the start of something new ...
Take the above mentioned Pistons Isiah got hurt at the WORST time in '88 ...yes he had one of the greatest Finals performances (and those that say Stockton was better are crazy ) but no doubt he wasnt the same in Game 7 ...Lakers win. The very next year the Lakers blow out 2 hamstrings in their staring backcourt by half-time of Game 1 after going 11-0 in the West playoffs ...both teams benefit from injury they split the titles ...

Crying about woulda, coulda shoulda is for the weak ...do or do not there is no try, close doesnt count ...etc, etc.

[Killakobe81]

Magic couldn't carry Jordan's jockstrap. He proved that in the 92 Finals. The 80's Lakers were tissue paper soft compared to teh 90s Bulls.

That's like saying the Suns from 2005 to 2007 would beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers because they had "more weapons" than those Lakers did. Shaq and Kobe were the best at their positions, like Jordan and Pippen, so it doesn't matter what else the Lakers had in the 80s, since nothing they had matched up to those two.

Your argument for the 80s Lakers vs. 90s Bulls is an EPIC FAIL!

The epicness of your ignorance is laughable ...
The NBA from 80 up until Mj's 1st title was the greatest run of basketballin NBA history ...
Mj was the GOAT by '91 but got beat by a Pistons team 3 years before that the Lakers and Celts whupped on after that ...
Magic made the NCAA or NBA Finals 10 times in 13 years winning 6 championships only Bill russell was a more consistent winner in NBA history ...

[BUMP]

This revisonist history stuff is crap ...ok
Suns were the 2007 Champs (stern ruined it)
Spurs in 2004 were the champs (dfish ruined it)
Mavs in 2006 (Ref conspiracy ...though I admit some of it WAS bad)
Bulls in '94 (refs stole it)
Lakers in '89 (bad hamstrings ruined it)
Lakers in'86 (bad bounce ruined it the rim was too soft!!!)

Funnything is those supporting whining about refs are some of the same ones that ridicule the Suns beef with Stern.
In the NBA these things tend to even out unless you the Clippers but I hope Blake Griffin is the start of something new ...
Take the above mentioned Pistons Isiah got hurt at the WORST time in '88 ...yes he had one of the greatest Finals performances (and those that say Stockton was better are crazy ) but no doubt he wasnt the same in Game 7 ...Lakers win. The very next year the Lakers blow out 2 hamstrings in their staring backcourt by half-time of Game 1 after going 11-0 in the West playoffs ...both teams benefit from injury they split the titles ...

Crying about woulda, coulda shoulda is for the weak ...do or do not there is no try, close doesnt count ...etc, etc.

Not every team has won 15 titles.....just saying:lol

[Killakobe81]

True, enough and the close ones hurt but years later we should be able to say the better team actually won. I think Mavs have the most legitimate gripe it's the one hose job that neutral fans would admit was a travesty ref wise ...
Even the suns/Stern debacle affected the series ...but i cant say for sure thatthe suns win a game 7 or were the BETTER team but they did get hosed ...

[BUMP]

Even to this day i've never seen even a minute of the 2006 Finals.


I was in Europe and missed every single game, the only time my team ever made the Finals and I come back and find out that we lost a 2-0 lead and to also find out that it was the one of the worst officiated series ever.

:bang

[ambchang]

Do your homework assface. Jordan played Drexler And the Blazers in 92.

Jordan beat a team with Vlade Divac as it's starting center in 1991. That 1991 team was Magic's Lakers minus Kareem who had already retired.


Talk matchups? How would Chicago have defended Kareem? Or Worthy? Or Byron Scott? The Lakers had a DPOY in Cooper who would have made Jordan work to get his.

Kareem would have killed Chicago, as would Bryon, as would Worthy, as would Cooper, as would Nixoon, as would Jamaal Wilkes.


And :lmao the idiot comparing the Nash Suns to the Showtime Lakers

While I agree that the 80's Lakers would have beaten the 90's Bulls, even the 96 Bulls, it should be noted by Byron Scott was taken totally out of the game in the 91 Finals by Jordan. You can contribute that to being tired guarding Jordan on the other end, causing him to miss the shots on the offensive end, and that the presence of Cooper would relieve Scott of that duty, but the fact was the Scott struggled mightily against the Bulls in the Finals when he had the chance.

Pippen also gave Worthy fits. While Worthy was obviously bothered by his ankle in 91 Finals, and his age was starting to catch up with him, Pippen had not yet hit his peak in 91, he became a much much better player 93 onwards.

Anyways, the matchup, while favouring the Lakers, is not as lopsided as people make it out to be.

Jordan and Magic cancels each other out.
Pippen and Worthy cancels each other out.
Cooper can guard Jordan, while Pippen can guard Worthy/Magic, depending on the matchups.
Cartwright can guard Kareem to some extent. Cartwright was a deceivingly good defensive center.
Nobody on the 96-98 Bulls could guard Kareem though. Kareem would be raining skyhooks on Rodman all game long.
Armstrong and Scott were similar players, just that Scott was better.
Horace Grant and AC Green can duke it out down low.
The main difference would be the bench though. And the Lakers bench is about 10x better than that Bulls bench.

[Culburn369]

Crying about woulda, coulda shoulda is for the weak

Exactly. Spurs fandom & Suns fandom live in a constant state of waiting on utopia= everybody healthy, all the calls go their way, everybody healthy, home court throughout, everybody healthy, Stern on our side, everybody healthy. If you don't get that utopian state you just throw in the towel like the Spurs did against the Mavs a couple months back and the Suns did after they ran Porter off.

You weak shits, you.

[Dunc n Dave]

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Scott....it's not even fair how much talent was on the same team.

I have a hard time believing Jordan's Bulls could beat the Showtime Lakers in their heyday.

Funny... in the 91 Finals (yeah, I had the wrong year at first, surprised none of you die hard fans point that out a lot earlier, if you're so Laker-savvy) the Lakers got CURB-STOMPED 4-1 even though they had:
Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Thomspon, A.C. Green, Perkins, Teagle, Elden Campbell, and a young Vlade Divac

by a team consisting of:
Jordan
Pippen
Ho Grant
Cartwright, Paxson, Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue

The Lakers had more "weapons," so why did they only win 1 game? Same reason the Suns couldn't get past the Spurs the last 5 years... all offense, no defense. Not to mention, the Lakers had the "championship experience" and the Bulls were supposed to have stage fright being in the Finals for the 1st time...

And don't try to tell me Magic and Worthy were old (he was only 31 and Worthy was 29). If he was so great and Worthy was so great, and the Bulls so bad, why couldn't the Lakers win more than 1 game vs. the weaker of the 2 Bulls three-peat teams?

Nobody played defense in the 80s and you want to put them against a team that DOMINATED the defensive era of basketball? Please...

[Culburn369]

Funny... in the 91 Finals (yeah, I had the wrong year at first, surprised none of you die hard fans point that out, if you're so Laker-savvy) the Lakers got CURB-STOMPED 4-1

Dunc is correct here. We were fortunate not to get skunked. Perkins hit that 3 to win Game One. Jackson switched Pippen onto Magic and it was all over but the shoutin'. Magic had too much ego to permit Dunleavy to allow Scott to advance the ball, so by the time Magic criss crossed the entire court with Pippen draped all over him he was exhausted and the shot clock was out of kilter in relation to the Lakers offensive schemes.

It was a living nightmare.

[Dunc n Dave]

Do your homework assface. Jordan played Drexler And the Blazers in 92.

Jordan beat a team with Vlade Divac as it's starting center in 1991. That 1991 team was Magic's Lakers minus Kareem who had already retired.


Talk matchups? How would Chicago have defended Kareem? Or Worthy? Or Byron Scott? The Lakers had a DPOY in Cooper who would have made Jordan work to get his.

Kareem would have killed Chicago, as would Bryon, as would Worthy, as would Cooper, as would Nixoon, as would Jamaal Wilkes.


And :lmao the idiot comparing the Nash Suns to the Showtime Lakers

You seem to live in a Laker bubble and forget that Pippen and Jordan were the top 2 defensive players in the early 90s. Everyone always remembers Jordan for his scoring, but he took it as a challenge every night to shut his man down on the defensive end. Much like a younger Kobe did... Just look at how many times he made the All-Defensive Team.

Pippen and Jordan were a leathel 2 way threat. Scott was a non-factor thanks to MJ. Worthy shot 16% from 3pt in the Finals, thanks to Pippen. And that center of yours you rag on (Vlade) averaged over 18per game in that series, so it's not like he was a scrub.

Magic was the only big minute player on that team over 30, so don't even play the age card. The 80s were about outscoring your opponent (Run-N-Gun) while the 90s were about defense. Having more weapons on paper has never helped the Suns win in the playoffs vs the Spurs. There's more to winning basketball games than who has the highest PPG average... Those averages drop off when you run into a team that ACTUALLY plays lockdown defense and makes that their calling card.

[IronMexican]

It seriously needs to be October already. Why are people arguing over something this stupid.

[Dunc n Dave]

It seriously needs to be October already. Why are people arguing over something this stupid.

Because it's fun to watch the Laker fans circle the wagons to defend their beloved "showtime" teams and talk themselves in circles until they convince themselves they had the best team in the history of the NBA.:toast

Even if it means them overlooking the tiny detail of no one playing defense in the 80's and all of them being 6'4" and weighing 160 pounds. The NBA was more like wrestling back then: all about style over substance. But hey, at least the fans were entertained, right? Nevermind they didn't have a clue about how real basketball was played...

[Dunc n Dave]

Exactly. Spurs fandom & Suns fandom live in a constant state of waiting on utopia= everybody healthy, all the calls go their way, everybody healthy, home court throughout, everybody healthy, Stern on our side, everybody healthy. If you don't get that utopian state you just throw in the towel like the Spurs did against the Mavs a couple months back and the Suns did after they ran Porter off.

You weak shits, you.


Where's the poetry, Culburn? You aren't losing your cool, are you? Are you going to start talking about faggots and Sperms next? :nope

[Killakobe81]

Funny... in the 91 Finals (yeah, I had the wrong year at first, surprised none of you die hard fans point that out a lot earlier, if you're so Laker-savvy) the Lakers got CURB-STOMPED 4-1 even though they had:
Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Thomspon, A.C. Green, Perkins, Teagle, Elden Campbell, and a young Vlade Divac

by a team consisting of:
Jordan
Pippen
Ho Grant
Cartwright, Paxson, Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue

The Lakers had more "weapons," so why did they only win 1 game? Same reason the Suns couldn't get past the Spurs the last 5 years... all offense, no defense. Not to mention, the Lakers had the "championship experience" and the Bulls were supposed to have stage fright being in the Finals for the 1st time...

And don't try to tell me Magic and Worthy were old (he was only 31 and Worthy was 29). If he was so great and Worthy was so great, and the Bulls so bad, why couldn't the Lakers win more than 1 game vs. the weaker of the 2 Bulls three-peat teams?

Nobody played defense in the 80s and you want to put them against a team that DOMINATED the defensive era of basketball? Please...

it WAS pip not Mj that did a great job on magic lakers were NOY best team inthe West portland was ...we were lucky 2 get that far and win a game Magic deserves much props for willing a aging core to a Finals ...

[Dunc n Dave]

it WAS pip not Mj that did a great job on magic lakers were NOY best team inthe West portland was ...we were lucky 2 get that far and win a game Magic deserves much props for willing a aging core to a Finals ...

Aging core? Come on... no one who played significant minutes on that team was over the age of 30 other than Magic, and he was only 31 (younger than Duncan or Manu who'll be 32 this month).

I am not trying to discredit Magic as one of the GREATS. He changed the game, showing people a big man COULD play point guard. He was one of the few greats that made people around him better, but honestly Jordan trumps him.

Jordan did MORE with LESS than Magic did and his Bulls teams were a defensive force in the 90s, which is why they won 72 games. It wasn't from outscoring everyone, it was from shutting them down with their defense. Everyone overlooks Jordan's defense because of his scoring. Leading the league in scoring for 6+seasons in a row, Jordan (more than anyone) had an EXCUSE to take it easy on defense, but he never did. He and Pippen were #1 and #2 as perimeter defenders in the 90s and could shut down any scoring tandem.

Jordan won Defensive player of the year in 88 (the year after Cooper won it)and was on 1st Team All Defense 9 TIMES! Yet Laker fans think he couldn't handle Worthy or Magic? Please...

Pippen was All Defensive 10 Times (8 of them on the 1st Team). Both of these guys did this during the golden age of defense in the NBA, so they had a lot more competition for these awards than the players of the 80's.

In comparison Cooper was All Defensive Team 8 times (5 times on the 1st team). Yet, he still could never slow down Larry Bird, one of the most unathletic superstars in NBA history. What makes you think he could stop Jordan, one of the greatest athletes in any sport? Once again, no one played defense in the 80's, so anyone who showed the slightest bit of interest in defense had a great chance of being on the All Defensive Team in the 80s.

I know Laker fans will scream about this, but Cooper would be an above average defender in today's NBA, but he was great by 80's standards.

[baseline bum]

Dunc is correct here. We were fortunate not to get skunked. Perkins hit that 3 to win Game One. Jackson switched Pippen onto Magic and it was all over but the shoutin'. Magic had too much ego to permit Dunleavy to allow Scott to advance the ball, so by the time Magic criss crossed the entire court with Pippen draped all over him he was exhausted and the shot clock was out of kilter in relation to the Lakers offensive schemes.

It was a living nightmare.

Why does this urban legend still persist? Jordan was the primary defender on Magic that entire series except the final three quarters of game 2 (after Jordan picked up two quick fouls in the first). Pippen took a few turns at Magic, but Jordan was the one guarding him about 70% of the time.

[BUMP]

It seriously needs to be October already. Why are people arguing over something this stupid.

idk

atleast this is something new

better than

lol 2-0
lol Golden State
lol Kobe is a rapist
lol 2nd round (Houston)

[Culburn369]

Where's the poetry, Culburn? You aren't losing your cool, are you? Are you going to start talking about faggots and Sperms next? :nope

No, but, I've been delving into the old lady's douche bags to see what that's all about. Massengill, what a weird word!

[Killakobe81]

Aging core? Come on... no one who played significant minutes on that team was over the age of 30 other than Magic, and he was only 31 (younger than Duncan or Manu who'll be 32 this month).

I am not trying to discredit Magic as one of the GREATS. He changed the game, showing people a big man COULD play point guard. He was one of the few greats that made people around him better, but honestly Jordan trumps him.

Jordan did MORE with LESS than Magic did and his Bulls teams were a defensive force in the 90s, which is why they won 72 games. It wasn't from outscoring everyone, it was from shutting them down with their defense. Everyone overlooks Jordan's defense because of his scoring. Leading the league in scoring for 6+seasons in a row, Jordan (more than anyone) had an EXCUSE to take it easy on defense, but he never did. He and Pippen were #1 and #2 as perimeter defenders in the 90s and could shut down any scoring tandem.

Jordan won Defensive player of the year in 88 (the year after Cooper won it)and was on 1st Team All Defense 9 TIMES! Yet Laker fans think he couldn't handle Worthy or Magic? Please...

Pippen was All Defensive 10 Times (8 of them on the 1st Team). Both of these guys did this during the golden age of defense in the NBA, so they had a lot more competition for these awards than the players of the 80's.

In comparison Cooper was All Defensive Team 8 times (5 times on the 1st team). Yet, he still could never slow down Larry Bird, one of the most unathletic superstars in NBA history. What makes you think he could stop Jordan, one of the greatest athletes in any sport? Once again, no one played defense in the 80's, so anyone who showed the slightest bit of interest in defense had a great chance of being on the All Defensive Team in the 80s.

I know Laker fans will scream about this, but Cooper would be an above average defender in today's NBA, but he was great by 80's standards.

That is horeshit ...you cant praise Jordan for what he did in one sense yet discredit how Coop played the nest ESPEcially whenin your oown post you pointed out that they won the DPOY in back to back years so in 1 year the league got so much better? Asinine ...

As for the argument about defense of the Bulls yes it was great but if you look at the stats there were hardly any great shooting in that era ...so of course those defensive numbers are inflated ...easy to hold teams under 90 when Ft shooting and 3 pt shooting, possesions and league scoring as a whole were down ...the Bulls just did it better than everyone else ...

Botton line is Jordan did what he should dominated a watered down league ...
The 80's way better than the 90's the 84 85 86 87 Lakers as well as the late 80's Pistions were allway better teams than the 90's Bulls

Is jordan GOATsure I can buy that but way btter than Magic ..no and not a btter winner just like you can pull out stats 5 titles nine apperances better than 6 as far as being a conistent winner ...Magic all he did was play in Finals and if you bring up teammates sure but that is why the sHowtime Lakers were better end of story ...

May i ask Dunc hhow old were in the 80's ?

[Killakobe81]

Aging core? Come on... no one who played significant minutes on that team was over the age of 30 other than Magic, and he was only 31 (younger than Duncan or Manu who'll be 32 this month).

I am not trying to discredit Magic as one of the GREATS. He changed the game, showing people a big man COULD play point guard. He was one of the few greats that made people around him better, but honestly Jordan trumps him.

Jordan did MORE with LESS than Magic did and his Bulls teams were a defensive force in the 90s, which is why they won 72 games. It wasn't from outscoring everyone, it was from shutting them down with their defense. Everyone overlooks Jordan's defense because of his scoring. Leading the league in scoring for 6+seasons in a row, Jordan (more than anyone) had an EXCUSE to take it easy on defense, but he never did. He and Pippen were #1 and #2 as perimeter defenders in the 90s and could shut down any scoring tandem.

Jordan won Defensive player of the year in 88 (the year after Cooper won it)and was on 1st Team All Defense 9 TIMES! Yet Laker fans think he couldn't handle Worthy or Magic? Please...

Pippen was All Defensive 10 Times (8 of them on the 1st Team). Both of these guys did this during the golden age of defense in the NBA, so they had a lot more competition for these awards than the players of the 80's.

In comparison Cooper was All Defensive Team 8 times (5 times on the 1st team). Yet, he still could never slow down Larry Bird, one of the most unathletic superstars in NBA history. What makes you think he could stop Jordan, one of the greatest athletes in any sport? Once again, no one played defense in the 80's, so anyone who showed the slightest bit of interest in defense had a great chance of being on the All Defensive Team in the 80s.

I know Laker fans will scream about this, but Cooper would be an above average defender in today's NBA, but he was great by 80's standards.

He did slow down Bird better than most and what does athletic have to do with being great? Duncan is far less athletic than Amare, Dirk KG even Shaq in his prime ...who would you want on your team heck evenb David was more athletic but Duncan is wayy better silly argument ...Pierce also is not super athletic but he torched the more athletic lebron and in some cases Kobe last year ...
Larry Bird is a HOf'er and I bet you who would torch Bowen, battier or any athletic defender of this era anyone that does not give respect to Birds game really dont know ball and should watch the Larry Legend DVD ...When Rodman still played GREAT defense on the Pistons insteda of the clown prince on the Bulls he could not stop Bird either so what?!
WOW the Jordan love is so blinding we are taking shots at Bird and Cooper?! Dunc and Dave should changed his name to Dumb & dumber IF you believe this pile of crap you shoveling ...

[Killakobe81]

Dunc & dave started this with Magic could not hold Mj's jockstrap that would be = tp saying Duncan could not hold kobe's or vice versa both are great also ...
the number of all defensive team arguments is foolishness because the NBA does a piss poor job of naming MVP's , DPOY and ALL defense ...

Plus Magic may have been 31 but like Manu & Tim who are allwinners EVERY year they are plaing DEEP in to the playoffs ...plus Worthy had a lot of miles and knee trouble as well these are not excuses Bulls were better bu that team was far from showtime ...that ended with the back 2 back mamd attempt at 3 peat run ...

[Dunc n Dave]

That is horeshit ...you cant praise Jordan for what he did in one sense yet discredit how Coop played the nest ESPEcially whenin your oown post you pointed out that they won the DPOY in back to back years so in 1 year the league got so much better? Asinine ...

Jordan was at the begining of his career when he won DPOY, Cooper was near the end of his. Jordan continued his defensive dominance through the next decade through his 6 championships.


As for the argument about defense of the Bulls yes it was great but if you look at the stats there were hardly any great shooting in that era ...so of course those defensive numbers are inflated ...easy to hold teams under 90 when Ft shooting and 3 pt shooting, possesions and league scoring as a whole were down ...the Bulls just did it better than everyone else ...

Same could be said about the offensive numbers. That THEY were inflated in the 80's since nobody played defense: all dunks and layups=inflated shooting %. You telling me Amare and Shaq are the best shooters in the league because of their sky high shooting percentages? Dunks and layups don't make you a good shooter. We call those garbage men...
And did you ever stop to think that shooting percentages were lower in the 90's BECAUSE the defense was better. Or are you really that stupid and believe that good defense does not effect the quality of a shot?


Botton line is Jordan did what he should dominated a watered down league ...
The 80's way better than the 90's the 84 85 86 87 Lakers as well as the late 80's Pistions were allway better teams than the 90's Bulls

Please, the Lakers were the ones that coasted to the Finals each year with hardly any competition out West in the 80s, while Jordan's Bulls were getting pummeled by the Celtics, Pistons, and Knicks (remember the "Jordan Rules" the Pistons implemented?)


Is jordan GOATsure I can buy that but way btter than Magic ..no and not a btter winner just like you can pull out stats 5 titles nine apperances better than 6 as far as being a conistent winner ...Magic all he did was play in Finals and if you bring up teammates sure but that is why the sHowtime Lakers were better end of story ...

May i ask Dunc hhow old were in the 80's ?

9 appearances in the Finals means nothing if you have no competition in the West. Magic was great, OK. But Jordan was better and he proved it, even though Magic was supposed to win in 91 with all that experience. Earlier, you said the Lakers had an aging core (yet Magic was 31 and everyone else under 30), then you start using the injury excuse. You guys are the ones always on SPurs fans for playing the injury card, but you're quick to pull it when it plays in your favor too? Turnabout is fair play, my friend.

Once again, the best team on paper doesn't always win. Would the Lkaers beat the 90s Bulls in a game of HORSE? No doubt. But in the Finals, no way. Defense wins championships.

Oh and I was born in '75, so I grew up watching basketball in the 80s. As a kid, I enjoyed watching the Lakers, because I had a short attention span and like to see high scoring games. Then I grew up and learned how to play the game the right way and realized it takes TRUE HEART to commit to defense. Anyone can put the ball through the hoop, but few have the DESIRE to play tough D. That, and SUBSTANCE beats STYLE every time. End of story...

[Dunc n Dave]

Dunc & dave started this with Magic could not hold Mj's jockstrap that would be = tp saying Duncan could not hold kobe's or vice versa both are great also ...
the number of all defensive team arguments is foolishness because the NBA does a piss poor job of naming MVP's , DPOY and ALL defense ...

Plus Magic may have been 31 but like Manu & Tim who are allwinners EVERY year they are plaing DEEP in to the playoffs ...plus Worthy had a lot of miles and knee trouble as well these are not excuses Bulls were better bu that team was far from showtime ...that ended with the back 2 back mamd attempt at 3 peat run ...


If Magic was so washed up in 1991, how is it that he STILL made 1st Team All NBA? Were the rest of the NBA PGs THAT BAD in 1991 that a washed up old Magic Johnson (who was "tired from all those extra playoff games" against a weak Western Conference) was the best at his position? Just wondering....

[Dunc n Dave]

He did slow down Bird better than most and what does athletic have to do with being great? Duncan is far less athletic than Amare, Dirk KG even Shaq in his prime ...who would you want on your team heck evenb David was more athletic but Duncan is wayy better silly argument ...Pierce also is not super athletic but he torched the more athletic lebron and in some cases Kobe last year ...
Larry Bird is a HOf'er and I bet you who would torch Bowen, battier or any athletic defender of this era anyone that does not give respect to Birds game really dont know ball and should watch the Larry Legend DVD ...When Rodman still played GREAT defense on the Pistons insteda of the clown prince on the Bulls he could not stop Bird either so what?!
WOW the Jordan love is so blinding we are taking shots at Bird and Cooper?! Dunc and Dave should changed his name to Dumb & dumber IF you believe this pile of crap you shoveling ...

I yield on this arguement. You're right Larry Bird would torch Bowen, for the same reason Dirk torches Bowen. When you have a guy that is 6'9" and has range past the 3pt line, it's gonna be hard to shut them down completely. They can get their shot over a shorter defender whenever they want.

Can't blame Cooper for that one, I was wrong. But Cooper was also thin as a rail (as were MOST NBA players in the 80's: guess they were afraid lifting weights would hurt their shots?). Cooper would not be able to stop Jordan from posting him near the FT line and dropping that turnaround fadeaway Jordan perfected, nor stop him from getting to the rim with Jordan's quickness and athleticism. Jordan and Pippen were LIGHT YEARS ahead of Cooper and Wirthy (also thin as a rail) when it came to pyhsical strength. Cooper on Jordan would be like Shawn Bradley trying to stop Shaq from posting him up. It is a HUGE mismatch in the strength department.

Not saying Cooper would get torched.... well... yeah, actually I am saying Cooper would get torched by Jordan because NO ONE was ever able to shut him down. Many tried to be Jordan stoppers and none were successful.

[Killakobe81]

ok genius let me break it down in simple terms so you so you can understand Im guessing you didnt watch much 80's ball or were too young to really grasp it ...so let me school you ...
1. I never said Magic was better I said the Lakers team was better which you even admitted they had a better bench ...duh
2. Cooper being rail thin - Bowen isnt a mass of muscles but I have seen him do a heck of a job on Lebron James who is all muscle ...Coop was a great defender but his prime and Mj's prime only overlapped slightly ..i agree though MJ could score on anyone as could any great offensive player
3. Again with first team AL NBA - doesnt mean much to me but he deserved it for carrying that weak sauce team to the FINALS they were good but not showtime good that year (sorry i have high standards maybe you do not) ...Portland had a better record that year, but still lost ...I never said Magic was washed up ...but his time had passed ...just like the Pistons teams Mj COULD NOT beat when it was time he did ...
4. I did not make injury excuses ...I just pointed out that Mj did not beat the same Laker team Bird did ...Let me give you a Spur example: So the Lakers beat the Spurs in '08 and Mavs did the same ....so that means the '08 Lakers by your ignorant reasoning Could of beat the SPurs in '07, '05 '03 heck even '99 because they beat THAT Spurs franchise team 2-8 years later ...really?! Same for Mavs? So the '09 Magis are better than the '08Celts really? You felt that way watching teh Finals genius? Really?!
5. 9 appearances in the Finals means nothing LMAO ...so the Celts meant nothing cuz East was weak or the Pistons titles now that the East is ?...This comment alone gives you little credibilty
6. Dudes in the 80's could shoot jumpers these are not layups and dunks.. riddle me this pick the 10 best shooters of the 90's and let's have them deal with this squad in both 3pt and FT: Bird, Mullin, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Alex English, Isiah, Sleepy Floyd, Kiki Vandewege and Rolando Blackmon and all of these guys were stars not specialists like in the 90's like the Currys Leglers Paxson and Hodges ...
7. Look i understand you prefer 90's ball and that is cool the players are more athletic than the 80's but the league was weak because when Mj retired (baseball)we had one of the lowest rated FINALS ...no one well few wanted to see brick after brick some of it was defense no doubt ...but the league had shifted to athletes insted of players dunkers instead of shooters ...the NBA has just started to get back to great ball the early part of this decade with the Lakers & Spurs
8. Again Mj was great bulls slightly overrated and you my friend are not very bright or too young to realize what great ball was really about. The west in the 80's had the Mavs of Tarpley, AguireDerek Harper and Blackmon, Spurs had Gilmore, Gervin and Moore, Rockets had Twin towers Mad Max and Reid, Sonics had Xman, Ellis, Chambers & Sikma Gstate had Mullin, Caroll, Floyd Teagle and Purvis Short, Portland had Drexler, Porter, Kersey Duck Utah had Eaton, stockton malone and thurl Bailey


Are you telling me any of those teams in the 80's West are not better than: their counterparts right now? Maybe Tlong wouldnt make that trade but any of those franchises would trade their 90's or 00's oster for those guys problem was THEY could NOT get by LA just like Bulls did in the 90's (for the rest of the EAST) but those teams in the 80' were WAYYYYYY better! Expansion had diluted the talent pool in the 90's anyone that does not see that is blind ...and we could be facing teh same with the recession there is now a HUGE divide at the start of this decade between the haves: Lakers, Celts, Spurs Magic & cavs and the bottom feeders: Bobcats, Twolves, Grizz Nets

[Killakobe81]

Plus Duc & dave 3 points you ignored:
1. How old were you in the 80's ...
2. If athleticism and muscles are so key to defense how is it that duncan is a better defender than amare or even Howard but i will say Dwight was a beast this past year
3. You firs said Magic couldnt hold Mj's jockstrap ...but yet give so much credit for Mj beating him ...and talk about ALL nba defense and DPY but yet discredit Coops
4. Or Explain how a team with 1 maybe 2 HOF'ers/ALL NBA'er (which you place soo much credit on) can beat a team with 3 HOF's (4 if McAdoo in 85 is included) and a DPOY?

[Dunc n Dave]

ok genius let me break it down in simple terms so you so you can understand Im guessing you didnt watch much 80's ball or were too young to really grasp it ...so let me school you ...
1. I never said Magic was better I said the Lakers team was better which you even admitted they had a better bench ...duh
2. Cooper being rail thin - Bowen isnt a mass of muscles but I have seen him do a heck of a job on Lebron James who is all muscle ...Coop was a great defender but his prime and Mj's prime only overlapped slightly ..i agree though MJ could score on anyone as could any great offensive player
3. Again with first team AL NBA - doesnt mean much to me but he deserved it for carrying that weak sauce team to the FINALS they were good but not showtime good that year (sorry i have high standards maybe you do not) ...Portland had a better record that year, but still lost ...I never said Magic was washed up ...but his time had passed ...just like the Pistons teams Mj COULD NOT beat when it was time he did ...
4. I did not make injury excuses ...I just pointed out that Mj did not beat the same Laker team Bird did ...Let me give you a Spur example: So the Lakers beat the Spurs in '08 and Mavs did the same ....so that means the '08 Lakers by your ignorant reasoning Could of beat the SPurs in '07, '05 '03 heck even '99 because they beat THAT Spurs franchise team 2-8 years later ...really?! Same for Mavs? So the '09 Magis are better than the '08Celts really? You felt that way watching teh Finals genius? Really?!
5. 9 appearances in the Finals means nothing LMAO ...so the Celts meant nothing cuz East was weak or the Pistons titles now that the East is ?...This comment alone gives you little credibilty
6. Dudes in the 80's could shoot jumpers these are not layups and dunks.. riddle me this pick the 10 best shooters of the 90's and let's have them deal with this squad in both 3pt and FT: Bird, Mullin, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Alex English, Isiah, Sleepy Floyd, Kiki Vandewege and Rolando Blackmon and all of these guys were stars not specialists like in the 90's like the Currys Leglers Paxson and Hodges ...
7. Look i understand you prefer 90's ball and that is cool the players are more athletic than the 80's but the league was weak because when Mj retired (baseball)we had one of the lowest rated FINALS ...no one well few wanted to see brick after brick some of it was defense no doubt ...but the league had shifted to athletes insted of players dunkers instead of shooters ...the NBA has just started to get back to great ball the early part of this decade with the Lakers & Spurs
8. Again Mj was great bulls slightly overrated and you my friend are not very bright or too young to realize what great ball was really about. The west in the 80's had the Mavs of Tarpley, AguireDerek Harper and Blackmon, Spurs had Gilmore, Gervin and Moore, Rockets had Twin towers Mad Max and Reid, Sonics had Xman, Ellis, Chambers & Sikma Gstate had Mullin, Caroll, Floyd Teagle and Purvis Short, Portland had Drexler, Porter, Kersey Duck Utah had Eaton, stockton malone and thurl Bailey


Are you telling me any of those teams in the 80's West are not better than: their counterparts right now? Maybe Tlong wouldnt make that trade but any of those franchises would trade their 90's or 00's oster for those guys problem was THEY could NOT get by LA just like Bulls did in the 90's (for the rest of the EAST) but those teams in the 80' were WAYYYYYY better! Expansion had diluted the talent pool in the 90's anyone that does not see that is blind ...and we could be facing teh same with the recession there is now a HUGE divide at the start of this decade between the haves: Lakers, Celts, Spurs Magic & cavs and the bottom feeders: Bobcats, Twolves, Grizz Nets

1. The better team always wins 7 game series (unless the NBA intervenes, like in 2002), so the 91 Bulls were a better team than the 91 Lakers. More firepower doe not mean your TEAM is better.

2.Glad we agree Cooper would not be able to handle MJ.

3. Portland's better '91 regular season record doesn't mean they'll win in the playoffs. Just ask the 2007 Mavs. I watched every game of that LA v. Portland series and knew from the start the Lakers would win that series. Magic saved the day with his heads up move to throw the ball in the air to avoid the foul at the end of the game. And for Magic being past his prime, you're reaching there. A guy who makes 1st Team ALL NBA is not past his prime. And the Pistons beating MJ proves my point that the East was a tougher road to the Finals in the 90s than what the 80s Lakers had to face.

4. You talked about Worthy's knees, Magic playing so many playoff games taking it's toll. Sounds like injury excuses to me... As for your hypothetical Spurs stuff, you obviously didn't read my posts before you started insulting me. Kinda makes you look like an ass when you accuse people of things they didn't do and then ridicule them for those same things.
EX: I never said that because the Bulls beat the 91 Lakers that means they could beat the 80's Lakers. The 91 Lakers-Bulls Finals was used as an example for lakaluva to prove that Jordan COULD hang with Magic, since he wiped the floor with him. Magic and MJ were both 1st Team All NBA and Worthy was only 29, still in his prime, proof that Jordan was better. That's why I even showed both benches to prove that Jordan won that series DESPITE having a weaker team than the Lakers that year. But yeah, those weren't the showtime Lakers, since Kareem and Cooper were gone. How could anyone prove that a team from one decade could beat one from another decade? Not happening without a time machine...

5. The teams you mentioned won the Finals. The 5 titles Magic won were well deserved. They beat the best from both conferences. The other 4 Finals losses mean nothing when they didn't have to go through tough teams that beat you up on the way to the Finals, like the Bulls did with Detroit and their Jordan Rules, the Knicks with Starks, and the Celtics early in Jordan's career. The Lakers beat some one-trick ponies and swept alot of their 1st and 2nd round foes in those other years, then lost in the Finals when they finally played a real team. Yes, even my beloved Spurs with Gervin were a one trick pony in the 80's that would have been destroyed by the Celtics, Sixers, etc, since 3 of the 4 years they played the Lakers, they got SWEPT.

Examples:
-In 89 the Lakers didn't lose a game in the playoffs until they reached the Finals, then they got swept!!!
-In '84, they only lost 3 games in 3 rounds before reaching the Finals. Same thing in 83 except the Sixers swept them.

6. Again, in a game of horse the 80's win. Nut put a man in their face and those open jumpshots become contested shots and watch their % fall.

7. Obviously, you prefer style over substance. Some will never appreciate basketball the way it is supposed to be played. I am a bball purist. I could care less how many dunks and behind the back passes my team makes, as long as they win the game. It's okay if you have a short attention span, most of the country does, which is why the media promotes teams that are all about style and hoeps the teams that are all about substance will just crawl away and die, because our "low TV ratings" our ruining the game.

8. Expansion did water down the NBA to some degree, but it also helped the have nots, catch up to the haves. In the 80's you had 3 or 4 teams with all the best players and everyone else just hoping to make some money off s few playoff games. In the 90's the competition was more widespread, which makes for better basketball. I'd rather see a game go down to the wire than watch the 80s Lakers beat up on some poor team and win by 30.
By the way, a lot of the teams you metnioned were in their prime in the 90s. Portland was in the 90 and 91 Finals. The Jazz were a MUCH better team in the 90s and so was Godlen State with Run TMC.

You'd rather look good and lose, I'd rather win UGLY. So be it...

[Killakobe81]

1. The better team always wins 7 game series (unless the NBA intervenes, like in 2002), so the 91 Bulls were a better team than the 91 Lakers. More firepower doe not mean your TEAM is better.

2.Glad we agree Cooper would not be able to handle MJ.

3. Portland's better '91 regular season record doesn't mean they'll win in the playoffs. Just ask the 2007 Mavs. I watched every game of that LA v. Portland series and knew from the start the Lakers would win that series. Magic saved the day with his heads up move to throw the ball in the air to avoid the foul at the end of the game. And for Magic being past his prime, you're reaching there. A guy who makes 1st Team ALL NBA is not past his prime. And the Pistons beating MJ proves my point that the East was a tougher road to the Finals in the 90s than what the 80s Lakers had to face.

4. You talked about Worthy's knees, Magic playing so many playoff games taking it's toll. Sounds like injury excuses to me... As for your hypothetical Spurs stuff, you obviously didn't read my posts before you started insulting me. Kinda makes you look like an ass when you accuse people of things they didn't do and then ridicule them for those same things.
EX: I never said that because the Bulls beat the 91 Lakers that means they could beat the 80's Lakers. The 91 Lakers-Bulls Finals was used as an example for lakaluva to prove that Jordan COULD hang with Magic, since he wiped the floor with him. Magic and MJ were both 1st Team All NBA and Worthy was only 29, still in his prime, proof that Jordan was better. That's why I even showed both benches to prove that Jordan won that series DESPITE having a weaker team than the Lakers that year. But yeah, those weren't the showtime Lakers, since Kareem and Cooper were gone. How could anyone prove that a team from one decade could beat one from another decade? Not happening without a time machine...

5. The teams you mentioned won the Finals. The 5 titles Magic won were well deserved. They beat the best from both conferences. The other 4 Finals losses mean nothing when they didn't have to go through tough teams that beat you up on the way to the Finals, like the Bulls did with Detroit and their Jordan Rules, the Knicks with Starks, and the Celtics early in Jordan's career. The Lakers beat some one-trick ponies and swept alot of their 1st and 2nd round foes in those other years, then lost in the Finals when they finally played a real team. Yes, even my beloved Spurs with Gervin were a one trick pony in the 80's that would have been destroyed by the Celtics, Sixers, etc, since 3 of the 4 years they played the Lakers, they got SWEPT.

Examples:
-In 89 the Lakers didn't lose a game in the playoffs until they reached the Finals, then they got swept!!!
-In '84, they only lost 3 games in 3 rounds before reaching the Finals. Same thing in 83 except the Sixers swept them.

6. Again, in a game of horse the 80's win. Nut put a man in their face and those open jumpshots become contested shots and watch their % fall.

7. Obviously, you prefer style over substance. Some will never appreciate basketball the way it is supposed to be played. I am a bball purist. I could care less how many dunks and behind the back passes my team makes, as long as they win the game. It's okay if you have a short attention span, most of the country does, which is why the media promotes teams that are all about style and hoeps the teams that are all about substance will just crawl away and die, because our "low TV ratings" our ruining the game.

8. Expansion did water down the NBA to some degree, but it also helped the have nots, catch up to the haves. In the 80's you had 3 or 4 teams with all the best players and everyone else just hoping to make some money off s few playoff games. In the 90's the competition was more widespread, which makes for better basketball. I'd rather see a game go down to the wire than watch the 80s Lakers beat up on some poor team and win by 30.
By the way, a lot of the teams you metnioned were in their prime in the 90s. Portland was in the 90 and 91 Finals. The Jazz were a MUCH better team in the 90s and so was Godlen State with Run TMC.

You'd rather look good and lose, I'd rather win UGLY. So be it...

I never said i like style over substance ...where in my post did you see that?! You still never answered how old you were ...so i guess you either are basing your observations off of stats, history books or NBA classic games.

1. You were the genius that said Magic Johnson could not hold MJ's jockstrap and called Bird an unathletic superstar...right there your cedibilty is shot!!
2. You make it sound Like Bird or Mullin etc had no hands in their face watch the tape because there was less so called athleticism and not everyoine could hang in the air ala MJ shots had to be shot over people watch Isiah on the 3rd quarter in '88 most of those shots contested ...heavily
3. I agree the '91 Bulls were better than the 91 Lakers in fact the '91 Pistons and Blazers had more talent ...YOU WIN GENIUS but that just proves my point.
4. MJ did more with less ...Ok I give you Exhibit A Hakeem first title ...Exhibit B Duncan last 3 where is his sure-fire ast ballot HOF'er like MJ? Magic had a great team which is WHY they would beat the 90's Bulls But Mj didnt walk on water those guys did more with less ...
5. Coop couldnt handle MJ who could? again i never said stop just saying he would of done as good a job as anyone ...6. Obviously you are not very bright I never said you said ANYTHING aboiout the Spurs but in thr post I first quoted you discounted Showtime based on the fact MJ "curb-stomped Magic" Im just pointing out again for the mentally impaired:
a-That was far from the best Laker team (yeah no shit to everyone but you)
b-Magic is a great winner and is in MJ's class (ditto)
c-Coop was athletic enough to be a great defender in any era (watch tape)
d-Based on the faulty logic/reasoning in the original post I quoted that means last year's Mavs could beat the 2007 Spurs since they curbstomped you last year ...that makes a lot of sense ...right?! You the one that made the idiotic statement then get mad when i follow the same resoning to deduce that the Lakers and Mavs are better than the 2007 Spurs ...Obviously I dont believe that but swith this brilliant analysis of yours I have seen the light!!!
Look I know you must hate the Lakers and that is cool ...but 80's ball was not all sttyle what was so stylish about the Celts or the pistons? The funny thing is as a player I'm all defense little offense ...but i still feel 80's ball was better. I'll explain why next post.

[Killakobe81]

Let me get off of this because by most measures and most sane people know the 80's Celts and Lakers were the 2 greatest teams...
Here is why 80's Ball was better than 90's ...
1. Less money back in the 80's people earned their millions ...up until Jon Koncak they did not pay people off of Potential
2. Dudes played hard almost every night ...especially the good teams.Reason why Lakers whupped Kings by 40 was because unlike most teams in the 90's except the Bulls since Mj was raised in the 80's ball wise ...
3. Heck even All-star games were super competitive ...Slam dunk contests as well ...
4. the Refs were wayyy better
5 Mj for all the glory he brought the sport begat the dunks and highlights on Sportscenter and many kids lost that I also feel And1 didnt help either and i hate that crap (so do i really prefer style over substance)
6. I play hoops stillbut I coach kids more now than I play if I was going to show my team a game tape I would choose the Lakers or Celts of the 80's because there was great ball movement, shooting and defense Dennis Johnson and Coop played GREAT individual and team defense Magic And Bird suck 1 on 1 but were great rotators and ball denial ...plus how many kids do what Jordan and Pip did athletically?
7. Players stayed with their teams more ...teams were built not thrown together ...
8. Despite what Dunc and Dave thinks teams were better and deeper Vinnie Johnson, Coop, Ainge etc, the great 6th man would be starters over the Dontay Jones Batum's etc.
9. In the 80's we had big men Kareem, Sikma, Laimbeer, Parish, Moses ewing, Eaton Hakeem Gilmore Dawkins KWillis ...the 90's still Ewing and Hakeem David too and Shaq but the depth is lacking
10. The all 80's team Magic, Bird, Isiah, Kareem, Wilkins Mchale Worthy Dumars Moses Dr.J and vs. All 90's Jordan Pippen Drexler Hakeem Ewing Barkley Oh wait all those guys STARTED their careers in the 80's ...so the 80's had all those guys at the SAME FREAKING Time!!!! If you had put the Dream together in 88 ...

Youl would have end of prime Magic & Bird ...young MJ rookie Pippen young Ewing, Barkley Malone and Stockton Prime Mullin and Drexler and you replace Lattener with Isiah that is why the 80's were better ...case closed good night ....

[Killakobe81]

the summer of 1988 in fact was aruably the greatest in NBA history check this out: End of "prime" stars - Magic, Bird, Worthy Nique Isiah and Mchale ...entering prime or in - Mj, Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Malone,Drexler, and Mullin. The rookie stars that year were Robinson Pippen and Reggie Miller ...wow! how wa sthe NBA not better with 16 sure-fire HOF'ers playing at the same time?!

[Gervin44Silas13]

Talk to anyone who saw both era's, and they know that the Showtime Lakers and the Celtics of that era would have curbstomped the 90's Bulls. It was obvious the Celtics and Lakers of that era were superior to the Bulls.

And it's very stupid of you to assume the 90's Bulls were better than the Showtime Lakers because of ONE foul call made by a Referee


2000's Spurs would have manhandled the 1980's Celtics!

[Gervin44Silas13]

Let me get off of this because by most measures and most sane people know the 80's Celts and Lakers were the 2 greatest teams...
Here is why 80's Ball was better than 90's ...
1. Less money back in the 80's people earned their millions ...up until Jon Koncak they did not pay people off of Potential
2. Dudes played hard almost every night ...especially the good teams.Reason why Lakers whupped Kings by 40 was because unlike most teams in the 90's except the Bulls since Mj was raised in the 80's ball wise ...
3. Heck even All-star games were super competitive ...Slam dunk contests as well ...
4. the Refs were wayyy better
5 Mj for all the glory he brought the sport begat the dunks and highlights on Sportscenter and many kids lost that I also feel And1 didnt help either and i hate that crap (so do i really prefer style over substance)
6. I play hoops stillbut I coach kids more now than I play if I was going to show my team a game tape I would choose the Lakers or Celts of the 80's because there was great ball movement, shooting and defense Dennis Johnson and Coop played GREAT individual and team defense Magic And Bird suck 1 on 1 but were great rotators and ball denial ...plus how many kids do what Jordan and Pip did athletically?
7. Players stayed with their teams more ...teams were built not thrown together ...
8. Despite what Dunc and Dave thinks teams were better and deeper Vinnie Johnson, Coop, Ainge etc, the great 6th man would be starters over the Dontay Jones Batum's etc.
9. In the 80's we had big men Kareem, Sikma, Laimbeer, Parish, Moses ewing, Eaton Hakeem Gilmore Dawkins KWillis ...the 90's still Ewing and Hakeem David too and Shaq but the depth is lacking
10. The all 80's team Magic, Bird, Isiah, Kareem, Wilkins Mchale Worthy Dumars Moses Dr.J and vs. All 90's Jordan Pippen Drexler Hakeem Ewing Barkley Oh wait all those guys STARTED their careers in the 80's ...so the 80's had all those guys at the SAME FREAKING Time!!!! If you had put the Dream together in 88 ...

Youl would have end of prime Magic & Bird ...young MJ rookie Pippen young Ewing, Barkley Malone and Stockton Prime Mullin and Drexler and you replace Lattener with Isiah that is why the 80's were better ...case closed good night ....


I think you case is bull
You have a team like the Spurs that plays HARD defense and kills you with a silent offense. BASIC FREAKING BASKETBALL!!!!
In the 1980's no one played defense. 'Memba when Jordan was critized for more offense and less defense and the following year was DPOY.
Pop just took a page from that...and won 4 titles!! And was the 1st coach to beat the so called triangle offense of the Lakers!
You got to remember too in the 1980's games were taped delayed. Alot of NBA players were on Coke, and the league almost went bankrupt.
There wasn't a crapload of sport channels or the net for that matter.
David Stern and the NBA is so *&$#@* infused on reliving the glory days of the 1980's! Thats why he fixes games ala SAC vs LAL and no the refs sucked back then Tommy Nunez and Ed Rush were ***** Laker Fans!!!!!!

Get over it!!!! That decade is six feet under along with your parachute pants and Micheal Jackson.

[Killakobe81]

LOL I have no issues with Pop he is a top 3 coach all-time in my book behind Phil and Riley ...Let's leave the who would beat who argument for a 2nd because there is no definitive way to prove that but I have my opinion you have yours ...
But one thing not debateable is the talent drafted inthe 1980's trumps the 90's ...
Are you telling me that a league of: Magic, Bird, (rookies in '80) McHale, Isiah, Worthy, 'Nique, Drexler, Hakeem, Jordan, Barkley Ewing, Mullin, Malone and Stockton (most of the OG Dream Team) played no defense and played a lessor brand of basketball than the guys in the 90's?! Are you serious ?! The mental midgetry in this forum has sunk to new lows ...Look the 90's Bulls were great they are about the only team of that decade that could hang in the 80's ...the Spurs and Lakers of earlier this decade i would agree with as well ...but they are not better ...please stop that!

[Culburn369]

2000's Spurs would have manhandled the 1980's Celtics!

McHale, Parrish & Bird at 45 would still have given you fits. Look at what the 2009's Mavs did to the 2000 circa Spurs.

[Dunc n Dave]

McHale, Parrish & Bird at 45 would still have given you fits. Look at what the 2009's Mavs did to the 2000 circa Spurs.

The 2009 Mavs played the 2000 Spurs? Did I miss it? When did you get a time machine Culburn? That would explain a lot about you...

[Culburn369]

The 2009 Mavs played the 2000 Spurs? Did I miss it? When did you get a time machine Culburn? That would explain a lot about you...

I qualified it with the word [circa] blankethead. Ya douche bag, you.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dunc n Dave]

I never said i like style over substance ...where in my post did you see that?!
You didn't say it, I'm just guessing from what you said about "low TV ratings" after Jordan retired. True bball fans could care less how many other people are watching a good game with them. If that's not you, so sorry...


You still never answered how old you were ...so i guess you either are basing your observations off of stats, history books or NBA classic games.

I tried keeping it civil, but you can't operate that way apparently. So since you insist on being insulting, try this on for size:

Apparently, I 'm dealing with a MORON who can't fucking read, let alone who knows how to use punctuation in his posts (ever heard of using a comma or a period to break up your sentences? Your posts are IMPOSSIBLE to make heads or tails of without knowing where a sentence ends and a new one begins). Because I CLEARLY stated in the post right after you asked how old I was that I was born in '75. So either you are a retard who never learned how to read, probably because you were too busy jacking off to Laker highlight videos every day, OR math was never your forte.

I apologize for assuming a Laker fan would be able to do basic subtraction. So let me hlep you out here, because I love charity cases:

2009(that's now)-1975(that's when I was born)=34(that's my age)

34, that's how old I am. But wait, you wanted to know how old I was in the 80's, right? Should I make a list of how old I was in every year of the 80's, or do you think you can handle that one by yourself? Let me know if you need another lesson....


Gee, wasn't that pleasant... That's how you've talked to me this whole thread...


1. You were the genius that said Magic Johnson could not hold MJ's jockstrap and called Bird an unathletic superstar...right there your cedibilty is shot!!
You agreed with me that no one could stop Jordan, so does that shoot your credibility too? And I was unaware that Kori and Tim made you the person who decides who is credible and who isn't on this board. How you pull that off with that reading deficiency and lack of math skills?


2. You make it sound Like Bird or Mullin etc had no hands in their face watch the tape because there was less so called athleticism and not everyoine could hang in the air ala MJ shots had to be shot over people watch Isiah on the 3rd quarter in '88 most of those shots contested ...heavily

Another fine example of no punctuation making your thoughts seem senseless.
Here's a news flash for you: there were more layups and EASY fast break buckets in the 80's which means higher percentage. A decent high schooler can make 80-90% of his layups, even contested ones. But a jumper is a lower percentage shot, especially when contested. I am not saying those guys had no one contesting their jumpers. I am saying this: if I played in the 80's and for every 10 shots I took 7 of them were layups/dunks and 3 were jumpers, my FG% would look higher. It would not be a true indicator of how good of a jump shooter I am. Oh look, there I go again with the math lessen. Sorry for confusing you...



3. I agree the '91 Bulls were better than the 91 Lakers in fact the '91 Pistons and Blazers had more talent ...YOU WIN GENIUS but that just proves my point. I'm right, and it proves your point? Okay...
Again, you're not getting it. MY 91 Lakers argument was used for the Magic vs. Jordan argument with lakaluva. Magic with all his experience in the Finals was supposed to beat the ball-hog Jordan; didn't happen. You were the one who jumped in to save the day for lakaluva without reading all the info first (since you apparently have that little problem with reading).


4. MJ did more with less ...Ok I give you Exhibit A Hakeem first title ...Exhibit B Duncan last 3 where is his sure-fire ast ballot HOF'er like MJ? Magic had a great team which is WHY they would beat the 90's Bulls But Mj didnt walk on water those guys did more with less ...

Punctuation please! Hakeem won 2 titles and had Drexler the for the 2nd one, or did you forget because that wasn't in the 80's? Duncan won 4 but had a much more talent around him than Jordan. Duncan had Robinson (a HOF'er) then Parker and Manu (both All Stars). Jordan won 6 titles, and would have won more if he didn't go test out his lack of baseball skills. He did more with less than the guys you used in your "Exhibits." Still the second Bulls 3-peat would have destroyed my Spurs (and your 80's Lakers)because while my Spurs played tough D, the Bulls was tougher.


5. Coop couldnt handle MJ who could? again i never said stop just saying he would of done as good a job as anyone ...
Again, this was an argument I had going with lakaluva and DrHouse that you decided to jump in on, because they were saying Cooper would neutralize or slow down Jordan when they were comparing matchups. No one slowed him down in the playoffs, except himself. Even the flu couldn't stop him. So glad we agree...

6. Obviously you are not very bright I never said you said ANYTHING aboiout the Spurs but in thr post I first quoted you discounted Showtime based on the fact MJ "curb-stomped Magic" Im just pointing out again for the mentally impaired:

Apparently YOU are not very bright. I guess you can read someone's post unless they leave out the punctuation in it. That way they speak your language? I never accused you of putting words in my mouth about the Spurs. Let me repost it for you, and hopefully you'll grasp it this time around... I'll even bold and underline it for you...


As for your hypothetical Spurs stuff, you obviously didn't read my posts before you started insulting me. Kinda makes you look like an ass when you accuse people of things they didn't do and then ridicule them for those same things.
EX: I never said that because the Bulls beat the 91 Lakers that means they could beat the 80's Lakers. The 91 Lakers-Bulls Finals was used as an example for lakaluva to prove that Jordan COULD hang with Magic, since he wiped the floor with him. Magic and MJ were both 1st Team All NBA and Worthy was only 29, still in his prime, proof that Jordan was better. That's why I even showed both benches to prove that Jordan won that series DESPITE having a weaker team than the Lakers that year. But yeah, those weren't the showtime Lakers, since Kareem and Cooper were gone. How could anyone prove that a team from one decade could beat one from another decade? Not happening without a time machine...

Maybe you "felt like" I was discounting the showtime Lakers with that comparison, but just because you "felt" I was, doesn't mean I was. It was related, but it was more to argue my case for Jordan being better than Magic.

I still think the 2nd Bulls 3peat would beat the Lakers from any 80's team. And there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Just like nothing I say will convince you to change your mind that the Lakers would win. The difference is I am a Spurs fan arguing for the Bulls and you're a Laker fan arguing for... what a surprise, the Lakers! Homerism is gonna come into play with your argument, but hey that's cool. Never admit your team has flaws, if it makes you feel better.


a-That was far from the best Laker team (yeah no shit to everyone but you)
b-Magic is a great winner and is in MJ's class (ditto)
c-Coop was athletic enough to be a great defender in any era (watch tape)
d-Based on the faulty logic/reasoning in the original post I quoted that means last year's Mavs could beat the 2007 Spurs since they curbstomped you last year ...that makes a lot of sense ...right?! You the one that made the idiotic statement then get mad when i follow the same resoning to deduce that the Lakers and Mavs are better than the 2007 Spurs ...Obviously I dont believe that but swith this brilliant analysis of yours I have seen the light!!!
Look I know you must hate the Lakers and that is cool ...but 80's ball was not all sttyle what was so stylish about the Celts or the pistons? The funny thing is as a player I'm all defense little offense ...but i still feel 80's ball was better. I'll explain why next post.

a. I already admitted that was not the Showtime Lakers team (in my last post to you), but it was the only one we can use to compare Magic vs. Jordan. That reading problem showing its ugly head again for you? Do I really have to post everything TWICE for you to actually read something once?
b. agreed, Magic is one of the all time greats but Jordan is better
c. I said he'd be an above average defender, but not a DPOY candidate in teh new NBA. Have to agree to disagree...
d. Your reading problem is making you look REALLY bad at this point. How can you deduce I have faulty logic, when your argument is based on something you "assume" I said, that I have told you over and over again I did not say. You are just making stuff up in your head now. Next thing you know you'll be claiming I said the Run TMC Warriors were better than the 80's Lakers too, just because I used both of their names in the same paragraph. Just chill out dude, no need to get all worked...

I didn't always hate the Lakers (something you'd know if you would have read the post where I told you the year I was born). I just prefer substance over style. My Spurs play with substance, your 80's Lakers played with style. I was too young to know the difference when I watched the 80's Lakers in my youth, now "I've seen the light" as you put it.

I understand if you are one of the millions who are only entertained by dunks and no-look passes though. Look at what its done to Suns fans. Most of them are happy with losing as long as they have an entertaining product on the floor. ESPN caters to your kind. So be happy and watch the Dunk of the Night highlights every night and you'll get the 80's Lakers nostalgic feeling.

[Culburn369]

"your 80's Lakers played with style."

That was the marching orders & talking points straight out of New York & CBS. Boston would be "lunch bucket" and "deserving." Los Angeles would be "glitter" & "style" and their record "gaudy." And the Lakers went along with that dog & pony show, let New York & CBS eat their lunch, until Magic finally woke up and put a round right behind Bird's & Auerbach's ear on a Sunday afternoon in June, of '85. Then to make sure New York & CBS never forgot it, Magic took Boston out to the coast in the Summer of '87 and turned Worthy lose on 'em. Result? Boston, dead in the ground.

Uh, uh, Magic wouldn't let New York & CBS write his legacy as they'd written Wilt's, Baylor's & West's. Nope.

[Gervin44Silas13]

McHale, Parrish & Bird at 45 would still have given you fits. Look at what the 2009's Mavs did to the 2000 circa Spurs.


Oh give me a break....

Bowen on Bird Bird has to fight for his points...and fustrates the F out of Bird -Edge Bowen

Duncan on Mcale- The Best Power forward of all time ADVANTAGE DUNCAN!

Robinson on Parish- Robinson's defense to much for Chief

Parker on Johnson-Even DEAD Even

Ginobili on Angie- Gino can play defense and offense

Spurs bench: Willis, Horry, Jackson, Malik, Kerr and Elie
Boston bench: a has been speech impediment Walton, and a bunch of Boston Scurbs

Edge: Spurs

Spurs Win 4-2

[Culburn369]

See, it doesn't work for Media, and the attendant Network who owns the rights to NBA Finals to have the Lakers win it. No, what they desire and need is to have the Lakers show up, but, end up on the shit end of stick. They need Boston, Detroit, a Florida team, Boston, New York, Boston, or Philadelphia to beat the Lakers. They can't kick the shit to the losing team if the Lakers win. That don't work for them. If the Lakers lose they get two bites at the proverbial apple= they get to Lord it over the Lakers by fawning over the Celtics and they get to kick the holy shit out of the Lakers for losing to them. But, if the Lakers win, it don't work out: they can't cream Boston and won't carry the Laker's waterPERIOD

It's a definite quandry for them.

[Culburn369]

Oh give me a break....

Bowen on Bird Bird has to fight for his points...and fustrates the F out of Bird -Edge Bowen

Duncan on Mcale- The Best Power forward of all time ADVANTAGE DUNCAN!

Robinson on Parish- Robinson's defense to much for Chief

Parker on Johnson-Even DEAD Even

Ginobili on Angie- Gino can play defense and offense

Spurs bench: Willis, Horry, Jackson, Malik, Kerr and Elie
Boston bench: a has been speech impediment Walton, and a bunch of Boston Scurbs

Edge: Spurs

Spurs Win 4-2

I assume your model is based upon my model of the Celtics at 45 years of age and your Spurs in their respective primes. That assumption granted---I agree with your model.

Otherwise, I'm reachin' for the bag of douche bags.

[dirk4mvp]

Bowen on Bird Bird has to fight for his points...and fustrates the F out of Bird -Edge Bowen



:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao


Bird takes a hot steamy shit on Bowen without much effort.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Oh give me a break....

Bowen on Bird Bird has to fight for his points...and fustrates the F out of Bird -Edge Bowen

Duncan on Mcale- The Best Power forward of all time ADVANTAGE DUNCAN!

Robinson on Parish- Robinson's defense to much for Chief

Parker on Johnson-Even DEAD Even

Ginobili on Angie- Gino can play defense and offense

Spurs bench: Willis, Horry, Jackson, Malik, Kerr and Elie
Boston bench: a has been speech impediment Walton, and a bunch of Boston Scurbs

Edge: Spurs

Spurs Win 4-2



:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Dunc n Dave]

Oh give me a break....

Bowen on Bird Bird has to fight for his points...and fustrates the F out of Bird -Edge Bowen

Duncan on Mcale- The Best Power forward of all time ADVANTAGE DUNCAN!

Robinson on Parish- Robinson's defense to much for Chief

Parker on Johnson-Even DEAD Even

Ginobili on Angie- Gino can play defense and offense

Spurs bench: Willis, Horry, Jackson, Malik, Kerr and Elie
Boston bench: a has been speech impediment Walton, and a bunch of Boston Scurbs

Edge: Spurs

Spurs Win 4-2

Sorry Gervin, can't back you on that one. Bird was a big man with unbelievable 3pt range. Bowen couldn't stop Larry from scoring any more than Bowen could stop Dirk. And Dirk is tissue-paper soft compared to Larry Bird. Bird would man handle Bowen in the post and get hsi shot on the perimeter whenever he felt like it vs Bowen.

And the McHale and Duncan matchup would be closer than you think.. Duncan still wins that one 1 on 1 though.

[Killakobe81]

Ok since i have to type online from a hand device ...let's attack my punctuation skills. DO you want to battle me in an essay contest to prove my language skills internet tough guy? LOL
Again let me break this down so Dunc & dave can understand ...
1. We agree the Bulls in '91 beat the Lakers ... Mj dominated Magic did not ...
2. My response started with the comment that Magic could not hold Mj's jockstrap what an intelligent argument.
3. We agree no one could make a fair comparison arguing team from diffrent eras ... but you fail to provide a valid argument in the talent disparity from let's say 1988 vs. any year in the 90's of your choosing.
4. You made the assumption i prefer style over substance and that you are a basketball purist ...yet you prefer an era of mugging (90's) whered games between the Knicks and heat thart was settled with both teams scoring under 80 ...with a lot of dirty plays & fouls. Again the Bulls were great they won 92 80 a lot but the quality of ball in that era was not very good overall ...never discredited Jordan or the Bulls
5. You say Im being a homer but I made the same case if you read closely ...maybe i did not punctuate it well...that the Celts or Pistons were great as well I argued the 80's very little did I say about the Lakers ...
6. As a former player and coach I just thinkl the overall TALENT and quality of play were superior I'm stillwaiting for you to make a legitimate argument otherwise ...
7. I don't have ANYTHING against the Spurs in fact BEFORE I moved to SA they were my 2nd favorite team I love Duncan ...but what is this substance you speak of that the Lakers didnt have? Or the Celts or Pistons of the 80's for that matter? This is really the where you lose me despite your "perfect grammar & punctuation"... because where did I say that I love layups in dunks? In fact I would argue that there are way more layups and dunks in the 90's than the 80's ...but I don't have the stats to back that up.It's just what I saw ...maybe there were more layups but we had much more jumpshooters in the NBa in the 80's than 90's
8. Look Dunc & Dave I know i took some shots earlier ..I apologize i actually enjoyed this healthy debate. I just can't see how you could say the ball was not better when the many of the stars of the 90's were playing in the 80's, there was no expansion and there were was 2 dominant stars and not one dominant team.
9. I'll close with I also believe the 00's is better than the 90's beccause we had 2 mini dynasties Spurs & lakers 2 dominant big men (Shaq and Duncan) plus plenty of great all-around talent Kobe,LBJ, Wade, Manu Melo) I would rank 80's 1st 00's 2nd 90's 3rd for overall quality of play ...just my 2 cents ...

[Dunc n Dave]

I qualified it with the word [circa] blankethead. Ya douche bag, you.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Alright! Gramps has been brushing up on his internet lingo! Somebody get him a Werther's Original for a prize!

[Killakobe81]

I never said i like style over substance ...where in my post did you see that?! You still never answered how old you were ...so i guess you either are basing your observations off of stats, history books or NBA classic games.

1. You were the genius that said Magic Johnson could not hold MJ's jockstrap and called Bird an unathletic superstar...right there your cedibilty is shot!!
2. You make it sound Like Bird or Mullin etc had no hands in their face watch the tape because there was less so called athleticism and not everyoine could hang in the air ala MJ shots had to be shot over people watch Isiah on the 3rd quarter in '88 most of those shots contested ...heavily
3. I agree the '91 Bulls were better than the 91 Lakers in fact the '91 Pistons and Blazers had more talent ...YOU WIN GENIUS but that just proves my point.
4. MJ did more with less ...Ok I give you Exhibit A Hakeem first title ...Exhibit B Duncan last 3 where is his sure-fire ast ballot HOF'er like MJ? Magic had a great team which is WHY they would beat the 90's Bulls But Mj didnt walk on water those guys did more with less ...
5. Coop couldnt handle MJ who could? again i never said stop just saying he would of done as good a job as anyone ...6. Obviously you are not very bright I never said you said ANYTHING aboiout the Spurs but in thr post I first quoted you discounted Showtime based on the fact MJ "curb-stomped Magic" Im just pointing out again for the mentally impaired:
a-That was far from the best Laker team (yeah no shit to everyone but you)
b-Magic is a great winner and is in MJ's class (ditto)
c-Coop was athletic enough to be a great defender in any era (watch tape)
d-Based on the faulty logic/reasoning in the original post I quoted that means last year's Mavs could beat the 2007 Spurs since they curbstomped you last year ...that makes a lot of sense ...right?! You the one that made the idiotic statement then get mad when i follow the same resoning to deduce that the Lakers and Mavs are better than the 2007 Spurs ...Obviously I dont believe that but swith this brilliant analysis of yours I have seen the light!!!
Look I know you must hate the Lakers and that is cool ...but 80's ball was not all sttyle what was so stylish about the Celts or the pistons? The funny thing is as a player I'm all defense little offense ...but i still feel 80's ball was better. I'll explain why next post.

No one EVER slowed him down? Ever hear of the Jordan rules?!

[Culburn369]

Alright! Gramps has been brushing up on his internet lingo! Somebody get him a Werther's Original for a prize!

Gramps would settle for some See Alice, 2 popsicle sticks, a rubber band and an overipe kumquat.

Savvy?

[TheManFromAcme]

Come on Spur Fan. You guys are better than that. Give credit where credit is due. All this talk about "Magic not being able to hold MJ's strap" and "Soft" is fine and dandy but you can't take away the talent that was Showtime. I mean really. Sour grapes at it's best.

The '87-'88 Lakers squad is considered by many to be the best group of players ever assembled. I can't remember when and where I read and heard this but I remember this specific analysis nonetheless. Is it true? I don't know but head to toe they were the ultimate complete team. No weakness whatsoever and if there is one........winning 50% of the titles in the 80's is pretty damn good at least in my book.

THEY WERE THAT GOOD. Spur fan in here who goes back to the 80's will tell you that. The Spurs managed to assemble some pretty damn impressive teams back then only to get their hearts broken time and time again and we are talking about Gervin led teams. I mean, George Gervin. The man was one prolific scorer.

As far as this youtube piece goes; Who knows if Kareem fouled or not. The better team won and maybe Detroit get robbed but there was no stopping that Lakers team in that series. Age and time became evident the next year but not this series. No way. Besides, the guarantee was already made by Riles. :toast

Give credit where it's due guys. If your a purist of the game like I am, you'll recognize it and I am giving the '80's Spurs squads some credit here. They weren't push-overs and for a Laker team to beat the Spurs back then they way they did spoke volumes about those Laker teams.

[Culburn369]

winning 50% of the titles in the 80's is pretty damn good at least in my book.

And then slipping a smidge to 40% of the titles in the 00's ain't nothing to sneeze at either.

[Gervin44Silas13]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao


Bird takes a hot steamy shit on Bowen without much effort.


No Bird is just an overated white basketball player who beat 2 mediocore Houston teams twice and 1 Laker team that was hurting.

Celtics could never beat a full strength 1980's Laker team....and you want to say the Celts are better than the defensive minded Spurs... no freaking way...In the 1980's NOBODY PLAYED DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!

[TheManFromAcme]

And then slipping a smidge to 40% of the titles in the 00's ain't nothing to sneeze at either.

:toast Yup

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No Bird is just an overated white basketball player who beat 2 mediocore Houston teams twice and 1 Laker team that was hurting.


That 2nd Houston team wasn't mediocre at all. It had just beaten a full strength Laker team in 5 games.

[Gervin44Silas13]

I assume your model is based upon my model of the Celtics at 45 years of age and your Spurs in their respective primes. That assumption granted---I agree with your model.

Otherwise, I'm reachin' for the bag of douche bags.


No that would be the all-time line-ups.
Actually what gets me is that these ESPN lovers say the 1980's Celtics are a dynasty and don't consider the 2000's Spurs a dynasty in it's self.
The Spurs have never lost a NBA Finals the Celtics lost to the Lakers twice, they never repeated nor did the Spurs. But a conference title repeat counts? That's Stupid. That's like considering the Buffalo Bills a dynasty. :ihit

[Gervin44Silas13]

That 2nd Houston team wasn't mediocre at all. It had just beaten a full strength Laker team in 5 games.
If they were great they would have beaten Boston, so they were Mediocre, they only got lucky to beat LA!

[Culburn369]

No Bird is just an overated white basketball player who beat 2 mediocore Houston teams twice

Gervin has a point here, ESPECIALLY with the two rings ove the Houston teams. Those were gimmes, but, that's how it's done. You only have so many hammer & tong Finals matchups. The vast lion's share of Finals are gimmes, but, they count toward the total nonetheless.

And Isaiah Thomas called out Bird and whiteness that one time and was sternly admonished by Stern and it went away, but, I believe it had to do with Bird being compared to another player (black) by Thomas,,,,Dantley maybe, anybody remember the particulars?

[Dunc n Dave]

Ok since i have to type online from a hand device ...let's attack my punctuation skills. DO you want to battle me in an essay contest to prove my language skills internet tough guy? LOL
Again let me break this down so Dunc & dave can understand ...
1. We agree the Bulls in '91 beat the Lakers ... Mj dominated, Magic did not ...

AGREED


2. My response started with the comment that Magic could not hold Mj's jockstrap what an intelligent argument.

That comment was more just to get under lakaluva's skin. The same way he starts "Jefferson is Gay" threads to rile up Spurs fans... I take it back, Magic COULD hold MJ's jockstrap, but not his Air Jordans.:toast
In all seriousness, Magic is one of the best at his position ever. I don't intend to discredit his accomplishments. He was clutch from the day he came into the league.


3. We agree no one could make a fair comparison arguing team from diffrent eras ... but you fail to provide a valid argument in the talent disparity from let's say 1988 vs. any year in the 90's of your choosing.

In your argument you try to use guys in the 80's who were actually in their prime in the 90's just because they first started playing in the league in the 80s. So what's the point in arguing when you twist the facts to make them seemingly support your opinion? More than half the guys on your list had their best season's as a pro in the 90s (either best stats of their career, MVP awards, or championships), you just found a technicality to add them your all time greats 80's team. Should I go look up guys who came into the league in 1997-2000 and use them in my argument even though they didn't really enter their prime until the 2000's? Again, what's the point?


4. You made the assumption i prefer style over substance and that you are a basketball purist ...yet you prefer an era of mugging (90's) whered games between the Knicks and heat thart was settled with both teams scoring under 80 ...with a lot of dirty plays & fouls. Again the Bulls were great they won 92 80 a lot but the quality of ball in that era was not very good overall ...never discredited Jordan or the Bulls

I didn't know tough nosed defense is defined as mugging? You're trying to take your OPINION of things and make it into fact. An opinion will always be an opinion. Just because your OPINION is that the "quality of ball was not very good overall in the 90's," does not make it a fact.


5. You say Im being a homer but I made the same case if you read closely ...maybe i did not punctuate it well...that the Celts or Pistons were great as well I argued the 80's very little did I say about the Lakers ...

I never said those were not great teams. The original argument was 80's Lakers vs. 90's Bulls. YOU brought up the Celtics and Pistons, not me. I WAS a Laker fan in the 80's when I hadn't learned the game completely, because they were entertaining. Eventually I learned to appreciate DEFENSE and stopped being a "Showtime" fan. Looking back now, I liked how the Pistons played, and to some extent the Celtics. I think the '89 Pistons were the team 90's teams tried to emulate, which led to defense becoming the focus of more teams. Overall my OPINION is STILL that most teams didn't play defense in the 80's. The LATE 80's Pistons were a team that changed the way the game was played going into the 90's.


6. As a former player and coach I just thinkl the overall TALENT and quality of play were superior I'm stillwaiting for you to make a legitimate argument otherwise ...

I didn't know we were giving out each other's resumes here? But if it makes you feel any better, I too am a former player and coach. Besides playing in HS, I coached basketball at the HS and Jr High levels here in the San Antonio area for 8 years. Not some YMCA or AAU team, that any Dad with a clipboard can coach in. And don't worry, I won't demand to know your age before I decide whether or not your opinion qualifies as a good one. As far as you waiting to here my legitimate argument? Come on... you and I both know no matter how many stats/scenarios I throw at you otherwise, I'm not going to change your opinion. It won't be "legitimate enough" in your eyes.


7. I don't have ANYTHING against the Spurs in fact BEFORE I moved to SA they were my 2nd favorite team I love Duncan ...but what is this substance you speak of that the Lakers didnt have? Or the Celts or Pistons of the 80's for that matter? This is really the where you lose me despite your "perfect grammar & punctuation"... because where did I say that I love layups in dunks? In fact I would argue that there are way more layups and dunks in the 90's than the 80's ...but I don't have the stats to back that up.It's just what I saw ...maybe there were more layups but we had much more jumpshooters in the NBa in the 80's than 90's

I doubt you'll ever find the stats to back up that there were more layups and dunks in the 90s than the 80s. No defense means easy shot and lots of layups/dunks. Feel free to try though...


8. Look Dunc & Dave I know i took some shots earlier ..I apologize i actually enjoyed this healthy debate. I just can't see how you could say the ball was not better when the many of the stars of the 90's were playing in the 80's, there was no expansion and there were was 2 dominant stars and not one dominant team.

Apology accepted... I too have enjoyed someone bringing real info to the table instead of "LOL 15 rings faggots, LOL 4-1 to the Mavs, LOL .4" like so many other Laker fans. You have your reasons for the 80's being better, I have mine for the 90s being better.


9. I'll close with I also believe the 00's is better than the 90's beccause we had 2 mini dynasties Spurs & lakers 2 dominant big men (Shaq and Duncan) plus plenty of great all-around talent Kobe,LBJ, Wade, Manu Melo) I would rank 80's 1st 00's 2nd 90's 3rd for overall quality of play ...just my 2 cents ...

Disagree on the 2000's though. The league has turned basketball into a sissy sport this decade with the hand check rules. Every new rule that has been passed in the 2000's has been done so to "entertain" the fans and cater to the offense. I like defense, while the uniformed fan wants to see high scoring games and flashy dunks. You seem to be somewhere in between. But that's my OPINION, not a fact.

ON another note, this is why I hate AAU basketball. The undisciplined play in those leagues (along with the NBA glorifying the dunkers) has caused young players to be more worried about increasing their vertical leap than working on their mid-range and outside shot. Because dunks and fast breaks put people in the seats, everyone wants to dunk and fast break. So I agree with you that TODAY'S players are worse shooters than the 80's or 70's players, but I also believe teams like the Lakers are partially to blame for it. SHOWTIME was idolized by kids and the NBA went "all in" on their scheme and especially when Jordan took off they overhyped the dunk. The result: young college players who could dunk, run, and jump, but are worthless outside of 10 feet from the rim. So they NBA tried to change the rules to make up for the changing athlete. But that's another argument all together for another time...

[Culburn369]

What was really weird about that '88 Finals was the 7th game and the way it ended with Detroit unable to launch a tieing 3 because the crowd half assed overran the court. Does anybody remember that? It was almost surreal and Detroit didn't even complain. I think Rodman had it last on the right side of the court going right to left just after half court and the crowd came swarmin' in.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If they were great they would have beaten Boston, so they were Mediocre, they only got lucky to beat LA!


What drugs was your mom doing when she was pregnant?

[Killakobe81]

AGREED



That comment was more just to get under lakaluva's skin. The same way he starts "Jefferson is Gay" threads to rile up Spurs fans... I take it back, Magic COULD hold MJ's jockstrap, but not his Air Jordans.:toast
In all seriousness, Magic is one of the best at his position ever. I don't intend to discredit his accomplishments. He was clutch from the day he came into the league.



In your argument you try to use guys in the 80's who were actually in their prime in the 90's just because they first started playing in the league in the 80s. So what's the point in arguing when you twist the facts to make them seemingly support your opinion? More than half the guys on your list had their best season's as a pro in the 90s (either best stats of their career, MVP awards, or championships), you just found a technicality to add them your all time greats 80's team. Should I go look up guys who came into the league in 1997-2000 and use them in my argument even though they didn't really enter their prime until the 2000's? Again, what's the point?



I didn't know tough nosed defense is defined as mugging? You're trying to take your OPINION of things and make it into fact. An opinion will always be an opinion. Just because your OPINION is that the "quality of ball was not very good overall in the 90's," does not make it a fact.



I never said those were not great teams. The original argument was 80's Lakers vs. 90's Bulls. YOU brought up the Celtics and Pistons, not me. I WAS a Laker fan in the 80's when I hadn't learned the game completely, because they were entertaining. Eventually I learned to appreciate DEFENSE and stopped being a "Showtime" fan. Looking back now, I liked how the Pistons played, and to some extent the Celtics. I think the '89 Pistons were the team 90's teams tried to emulate, which led to defense becoming the focus of more teams. Overall my OPINION is STILL that most teams didn't play defense in the 80's. The LATE 80's Pistons were a team that changed the way the game was played going into the 90's.



I didn't know we were giving out each other's resumes here? But if it makes you feel any better, I too am a former player and coach. Besides playing in HS, I coached basketball at the HS and Jr High levels here in the San Antonio area for 8 years. Not some YMCA or AAU team, that any Dad with a clipboard can coach in. And don't worry, I won't demand to know your age before I decide whether or not your opinion qualifies as a good one. As far as you waiting to here my legitimate argument? Come on... you and I both know no matter how many stats/scenarios I throw at you otherwise, I'm not going to change your opinion. It won't be "legitimate enough" in your eyes.



I doubt you'll ever find the stats to back up that there were more layups and dunks in the 90s than the 80s. No defense means easy shot and lots of layups/dunks. Feel free to try though...



Apology accepted... I too have enjoyed someone bringing real info to the table instead of "LOL 15 rings faggots, LOL 4-1 to the Mavs, LOL .4" like so many other Laker fans. You have your reasons for the 80's being better, I have mine for the 90s being better.



Disagree on the 2000's though. The league has turned basketball into a sissy sport this decade with the hand check rules. Every new rule that has been passed in the 2000's has been done so to "entertain" the fans and cater to the offense. I like defense, while the uniformed fan wants to see high scoring games and flashy dunks. You seem to be somewhere in between. But that's my OPINION, not a fact.

ON another note, this is why I hate AAU basketball. The undisciplined play in those leagues (along with the NBA glorifying the dunkers) has caused young players to be more worried about increasing their vertical leap than working on their mid-range and outside shot. Because dunks and fast breaks put people in the seats, everyone wants to dunk and fast break. So I agree with you that TODAY'S players are worse shooters than the 80's or 70's players, but I also believe teams like the Lakers are partially to blame for it. SHOWTIME was idolized by kids and the NBA went "all in" on their scheme and especially when Jordan took off they overhyped the dunk. The result: young college players who could dunk, run, and jump, but are worthless outside of 10 feet from the rim. So they NBA tried to change the rules to make up for the changing athlete. But that's another argument all together for another time...

I really agree with you for the most part here, especially the last part about the lack of skills and fundamentals at the AAU level. If i still lived in SA (i now reside in Dallas)...I think we would have a lot in common. I too have coached on the HS level boys and girls but now i stick to the youth leagues because emy sons are 3 & 7 and i hope to coach them at least part of the time...the 80's vs 90's argument aside I think we share some similar views ...though I blame AND 1 and Sportscenter more than AAU ...it just has trickled down from there. I personally feel even with the softer rules ...the talent level has increased this past decade.

I will concede som of the players i mentioned DD have their best year in the 90's ...no doubt about that BUT I did not have to twist anything to show that in the later part of the 80's we ther was the aging Alltimers along with a crop of HOf'ers ready to move the game in the 90's I just think there was the greatest convergence of HOF'ers with high skillset, and basketball IQ and i prefer that over most of the ballin the 90's Like knicks, heat and Cavs played in that decade ...

[dirk4mvp]

No Bird is just an overated white basketball player who beat 2 mediocore Houston teams twice and 1 Laker team that was hurting.

Celtics could never beat a full strength 1980's Laker team....and you want to say the Celts are better than the defensive minded Spurs... no freaking way...In the 1980's NOBODY PLAYED DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!

You're fucking retarded.

[Dunc n Dave]

I really agree with you for the most part here, especially the last part about the lack of skills and fundamentals at the AAU level. If i still lived in SA (i now reside in Dallas)...I think we would have a lot in common. I too have coached on the HS level boys and girls but now i stick to the youth leagues because emy sons are 3 & 7 and i hope to coach them at least part of the time...the 80's vs 90's argument aside I think we share some similar views ...though I blame AND 1 and Sportscenter more than AAU ...it just has trickled down from there. I personally feel even with the softer rules ...the talent level has increased this past decade.

I will concede som of the players i mentioned DD have their best year in the 90's ...no doubt about that BUT I did not have to twist anything to show that in the later part of the 80's we ther was the aging Alltimers along with a crop of HOf'ers ready to move the game in the 90's I just think there was the greatest convergence of HOF'ers with high skillset, and basketball IQ and i prefer that over most of the ballin the 90's Like knicks, heat and Cavs played in that decade ...

Glad someone else shares my sentiment about AAU. I am still a teacher in the NB area and constantly deal with kids missing school (and even their SCHOOL TEAM games and practices) for these AAU and Club team tourneys that their "club coaches" say they have to attend if they want any chance of being scouted for college. It's insane how they brainwash them at a young age. Even Jr High kids think they can't miss a "showcase tournament" or it'll cost them a scholarship.

I agree with you on the "And 1" and Sportcenter thing though. They have glorified "showmanship" over sportsmanship and hard work. I have 2 girls (ages 5 and 2) that I also hope to coach one day. They are the reason I left the HS coaching ranks. I got tired of never seeing them during basketball and tennis season. I figure if I coach them I can keep them away from these greedy, "win-at-all-costs" volleyball, soccer, and softball coaches that want them playing tournaments every weekend from the time they are 8 years old, and want to charge me $1000's of dollars for a "chance" at a scholarship in college. I saw it all the time as a HS coach, and even now as a MS teacher. But again, that's another story for another time.

Glad we have agreed to put our differences aside. Sorry if I pushed any buttons with you, and look forward to future basketball debates with you.

[Culburn369]

Glad we have agreed to put our differences aside. Sorry if I pushed any buttons with you, and look forward to future basketball debates with you.

Dunc, gettin' his ass smootcher on.

[Dunc n Dave]

Dunc, gettin' his ass smootcher on.

Jealous, Culburn? I noticed you've been stalking my posts lately. Even making up stories about me PM'ing you. Sad really...

[Culburn369]

Jealous, Culburn? I noticed you've been stalking my posts lately. Even making up stories about me PM'ing you. Sad really...


Well, I figged that since you'd been stalking my thread qui pro quo was indicated.

Savvy?

[Gervin44Silas13]

What drugs was your mom doing when she was pregnant?

My mom did none ...and she died of cancer fool...

But back to your point...I don't think the 1980's Celtics were that good
pretty much every playoff run they had they were forced 5 (1st rnd)to 7 games in the ECSF and ECF. If Boston was a dominating team...they would have finshed those games in 5. Clearly 3 gimme NBA tiltles and alot of fixing...EEERRRRR..... Luck 4 them!

But seeing your a bitter suns fan I can clearly see your Spurs hate!

[Gervin44Silas13]

You're fucking retarded.


Don't hate because your Mavs suck, if Cuban wouldn't be a retard you might have gotten one in 2006! So your team is not among the elite.

Seeing that u love the celtics so much I piss you off even more those titles in the 1950's are paper championships.
10 teams in the NBA and no competition.... ho hum !

P.S.: Larry Bird STILL Sucks, even Erving and Gervin were better than him!

[Gervin44Silas13]

Gervin has a point here, ESPECIALLY with the two rings ove the Houston teams. Those were gimmes, but, that's how it's done. You only have so many hammer & tong Finals matchups. The vast lion's share of Finals are gimmes, but, they count toward the total nonetheless.

And Isaiah Thomas called out Bird and whiteness that one time and was sternly admonished by Stern and it went away, but, I believe it had to do with Bird being compared to another player (black) by Thomas,,,,Dantley maybe, anybody remember the particulars?


You notice that when they talk about the Celtics they never talk about the Houston wins....they talk about the rivaly...and the Celts always got bitch slapped by the Lakers EVERYTIME....If I'm a fan I would hate to talk about my team getting punked in the Finals!

[Culburn369]

You notice that when they talk about the Celtics they never talk about the Houston wins....they talk about the rivaly...and the Celts always got bitch slapped by the Lakers EVERYTIME.

Gerv, the Celtics whipped our ass pretty bad in '84. That whipping did serve as a wake up call for Magic Johnson and transformed him and our franchise, but, we were "bitch slapped" nonetheless.

And the fact remains::: you don't choose your competition::: the Houston wins were gimmes for Boston, but, we had three gimmes in-a-row earlier this decade and one to end it.

It is what is.

[Gervin44Silas13]

gerv, the celtics whipped our ass pretty bad in '84. That whipping did serve as a wake up call for magic johnson and transformed him and our franchise, but, we were "bitch slapped" nonetheless.

And the fact remains::: You don't choose your competition::: The houston wins were gimmes for boston, but, we had three gimmes in-a-row earlier this decade and one to end it.

It is what is.


da!

[Dunc n Dave]

Well, I figged that since you'd been stalking my thread qui pro quo was indicated.

Savvy?

Quit being an attention whore by bumping your own appreciation thread and I'll quit pointing it out to others. I thought you were better than that; you know schooled in the "NBA arts?"

[Culburn369]

Quit being an attention whore by bumping your own appreciation thread and I'll quit pointing it out to others. I thought you were better than that; you know schooled in the "NBA arts?"

Dunc, dude, sweetheart, if you want my thread to not get bumped yer gonna have to petition it's extinction.

---

And quit holding a grude over the "NBA arts" thingy. So what if Phoenix Suns fans are more educated in the NBA arts than Spurs fans are. You Spurs fandom are hip about douche bags & retards. Ain't the end of the world. Jeez, they've got no rings and you got three,,,plus that strike one.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But seeing your a bitter suns fan I can clearly see your Spurs hate!


It's funny how untrue that is.

[Dunc n Dave]

Dunc, dude, sweetheart, if you want my thread to not get bumped yer gonna have to petition it's extinction.

---

And quit holding a grude over the "NBA arts" thingy. So what if Phoenix Suns fans are more educated in the NBA arts than Spurs fans are. You Spurs fandom are hip about douche bags & retards. Ain't the end of the world. Jeez, they've got no rings and you got three,,,plus that strike one.

I have as many rings as you do... ZERO... But hey your Lakers have 3 rings this decade, plus that asterisk one the league stole from the Kings in 2002.:toast

And I could care less if someone else bumps your thread, but when you do it, it's pretty pathetic, and I'm not the only one who's told you that. But hey, you wanna look pathetic? Go right ahead...

[Culburn369]

I have as many rings as you do... ZERO... But hey your Lakers have 3 rings this decade, plus that asterisk one the league stole from the Kings in 2002.:toast

And I could care less if someone else bumps your thread, but when you do it, it's pretty pathetic, and I'm not the only one who's told you that. But hey, you wanna look pathetic? Go right ahead...

Speak for yourself. I have 15.

---

Now excuse me while I get my pathetic on and bump my thread.

[Dunc n Dave]

Speak for yourself. I have 15.

---

Now excuse me while I get my pathetic on and bump my thread.

:nopeMethinks you've been hittin the Massengil a little too hard lately. Your T-shirt with 15 rings on it is still.......... just a T-shirt.

[barbacoataco]

LOL at how people compare teams of different eras. The fact is that the rules and the way the game is played has changed through the years. In the 80's teams didn't play as much defense. In the 90's and early 00's they played more defense. Now with the rule change against hand checking the game is going back to being more offensive oriented.

You can't say which would win out of the showtime Lakers, Jordan Bulls, Shaq Lakers, Hakeem Rockets because they all played under different rules. Which rules would be used when they played?