Matt Barnes to Orlando

[JamStone]

Expected to see a thread but didn't see one.

Barnes to Orlando (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4342767)



Sources: Magic, Barnes close

The Orlando Magic's active offseason continued Monday when they closed in on a deal to sign free-agent forward Matt Barnes, according to sources with knowledge of the talks.

One source told ESPN.com that Barnes and the Magic have agreed in principle on a two-year deal for an undisclosed amount that could be announced as early as Tuesday.

Since reaching the NBA Finals for just the second time in franchise history, Orlando has traded for former All-Star swingman Vince Carter, signed free-agent forward Brandon Bass, matched a five-year, $34 million offer sheet to restricted free agent Marcin Gortat and pursued Barnes to join a group of newcomers that also includes Ryan Anderson from the Carter trade.

Barnes, 29, averaged 10.2 points, 5.5 rebounds and 2.8 assists last season for Phoenix and is regarded as a versatile player off the bench who can guard forwards of all sizes and make the occasional 3-point shot.

The Magic began the week with roughly $1.9 million left from their $5.9 million mid-level exception after signing Bass.

With Hedo Turkoglu leaving in free agency to sign with the Toronto Raptors and Orlando forced to sacrifice Courtney Lee, Tony Battie and Rafer Alston in the Carter trade, last season's Eastern Conference champions will have a decidedly different look next season.

But Magic general manager Otis Smith has been unafraid to aggressively re-shape the supporting cast around his All-Star trio of Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis and Jameer Nelson, undoubtedly aware that the Los Angeles Lakers were the first NBA team since the Detroit Pistons in 1989 to lose in the NBA Finals and come back to win the championship in the following season.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao so much for saying they got better.

[JamStone]

:lmao so much for saying they got better.

Gives them some options and a little more flexibility instead of constantly relying on JJ Redick and Jeremy Richardson out on the wings as primary back-ups.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

?? Not good in PHX?


The already replaced the frontal lobe brain damage and mental retardation with Von Wafer.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Magic basically changed almost their entire team for no reason. They did get to the finals last year.


They were able to recognize they only made the finals cause of a KG injury. Good front offices can realistically evaluate where a team stands.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Maybe they should have gotten a true 4 to put with Howard?


That's why they got the Basshole.

[hater]

They were able to recognize they only made the finals cause of a KG injury. Good front offices can realistically evaluate where a team stands.

yup. KG injury and Lechoke. Magic were not even a legit contender last year. Shows how easy the Lakers had it.

Fucking Magic making lot of moves. It all depends how VC responds. If he can bring at least as much as Hedo did, they are a contender now.

[JamStone]

Because true quality power forwards can be picked from trees? It's not like any team can just say, hey, we need a guy to match-up with Kevin Garnett, let's go get Tim Duncan or Chris Bosh. Orlando was one of the teams courting Rasheed Wallace and didn't get him. Trading Courtney Lee for Vince Carter was a good move, in my opinion. Letting Turkoglu go was a product of feeling that Rashard Lewis should play more out on the perimeter against certain teams, like the really great teams in the Lakers and Celtics. Slide Lewis up to the small forward spot and have a banger like Brandon Bass deal with Garnett/Gasol. Now Matt Barnes affords some flexibility at both forward positions.

I like what Orlando has done. They didn't stand pat. Look at the 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers. Went to the Finals and stood pat even after the big KG/Ray Allen acquisitions at Boston. They lost the next year in the second round. Even when a team is successful, often times even if they win it all, they have to keep improving. Good teams, good GMs, know that. Whether the moves Orlando made will work, who knows? But, they very likely weren't going back to the NBA Finals next year if they stood pat.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

yup. KG injury and Lechoke. Magic were not even a legit contender last year. Shows how easy the Lakers had it.

Fucking Magic making lot of moves. It all depends how VC responds. If he can bring at least as much as Hedo did, they are a contender now.


Agreed except he's gonna have to be better than Hedo IMO. The reason that basically trading Hedo for VC was good because Hedo couldn't co-exist with Jameer, VC plays better when he's got a good PG next to him.

[JamStone]

Bass is a bench player, and not a starting 4.

They have Ryan Anderson and Brandon Bass for the penciled in 4's.

Thats some talent there. Honestly, if they tried to get Boozer or Odom with trades or even FA they would be favorites.

What would you rather have:

Nelson
Carter
Lewis
Anderson
Howard

OR

Nelson
Lee
Lewis
Boozer
Howard

You act like doing those things are simple and easy. Utah wants to shed Boozer's salary plus get some value in return. Orlando has nothing to offer them. Odom wants more than the MLE and the Lakers aren't trading him. How is the Magic supposed to get either?

[JamStone]

Agreed except he's gonna have to be better than Hedo IMO. The reason that basically trading Hedo for VC was good because Hedo couldn't co-exist with Jameer, VC plays better when he's got a good PG next to him.

As I mentioned above, I think it's also that they realize against teams like Boston and the Lakers, Rashard Lewis cannot guard KG or Gasol for 30 minutes a game. Letting Hedo walk allows Lewis to spend more minutes at the 3 and let Bass and Gortat and whoever else bang and pile up fouls against those talented PFs.

[Culburn369]

yup. KG injury and Lechoke. Magic were not even a legit contender last year. Shows how easy the Lakers had it.

Can't beat [easy] with a great big stick. Mavs kicking you all up & down the state of Texas withstanding.

[JamStone]

Looks good on paper BUT:

You have Anthony Johnson and Tyronn Lue replacing their backup PG who proved valuable. Then you replace Carter and his scoring abilities to Lee who was their best perimeter defender and major role player. You take out Turk who was their best player in the second half of the season and his matchup nightmares and you replace him with Ryan Anderson who can only shoot the 3. He has 0 post moves and slashing abilities or mid-range jumpers. You bring in Brandon Bass who is good in the Run n Gun offense, but gets dominated by players who know how to work the post. To end it you bring in Matt Barnes who might have the lowest IQ in the history of the NBA. To top it off you change the entire chemistry of the team, which is a severely underrated component.

You're right. They should have traded for Deron Williams to be the back up PG, signed Chris Bosh to be their PF and picked up Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony as bench players. I don't know what they're thinking.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pietrus is their best perimeter defender, not Lee.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You're right. They should have traded for Deron Williams to be the back up PG, signed Chris Bosh to be their PF and picked up Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony as bench players. I don't know what they're thinking.

Me neither. Seems like a bunch of no brainer decisions. Why not pick up Wade AND Anthony.

[KidCongo]

Lost some match-up advantages with the Cavs but have improved against everyone else I think.

[KidCongo]

Regular season race for no.1 seed should be entertaining.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sorry, I watched almost 80% of their games. Pietrus is not their best Perimeter defender. Hes the best to guard the likes of Lebron and Pierce, but not perimeter.


This is coming from the same person who said Courtney Lee is better than Orange Juice Mayonnaise.

[urunobili]

damn Orlando is making all the right moves... :depressed

[JamStone]

The likes of LeBron and Pierce are the players they need to stop the most. Vince Carter, while older and not as quick as he once was, can handle the majority of 2-guards in the league defensively, at least adequately. If the Magic want to continue to be a serious contenders, they need someone to match up defensively against LeBron and Pierce, who are physical, overpowering small forwards. That's why Pietrus is a more important perimeter defender than Courtney Lee was, regardless if you think Lee is a better perimeter on-the-ball defender or not.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nelson Alston/Lawson
Pietrus Lee/Reddick
Turk Outlaw/G.Wallace/Maggette
Lewis Milsap/Bass
Howard Gortat


I'd love to hear how they would get that team.

[KidCongo]

Nelson/ Alston/Lawson
Pietrus/ Lee/Reddick
Turk/ Outlaw/G.Wallace/Maggette
Lewis/ Milsap/Bass
Howard/ Gortat

:lmao:shootme

[Killakobe81]

Because true quality power forwards can be picked from trees? It's not like any team can just say, hey, we need a guy to match-up with Kevin Garnett, let's go get Tim Duncan or Chris Bosh. Orlando was one of the teams courting Rasheed Wallace and didn't get him. Trading Courtney Lee for Vince Carter was a good move, in my opinion. Letting Turkoglu go was a product of feeling that Rashard Lewis should play more out on the perimeter against certain teams, like the really great teams in the Lakers and Celtics. Slide Lewis up to the small forward spot and have a banger like Brandon Bass deal with Garnett/Gasol. Now Matt Barnes affords some flexibility at both forward positions.

I like what Orlando has done. They didn't stand pat. Look at the 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers. Went to the Finals and stood pat even after the big KG/Ray Allen acquisitions at Boston. They lost the next year in the second round. Even when a team is successful, often times even if they win it all, they have to keep improving. Good teams, good GMs, know that. Whether the moves Orlando made will work, who knows? But, they very likely weren't going back to the NBA Finals next year if they stood pat.

Excellent post. I agree 100% and Feel the EXACT same about the Lakers ...how many teams have repeated or made return trips to the FINALS with the WHOLE cast staying EXACTLY the same? You need a move (especially a vet that's never been there) like a Carter or an Artest to bring some of that "hunger, that thirst" for a title. Defending champs have a unique swagger to them the helps pulls out close games but there is also a fine line between that swagger and complacency... some changes help alleviate that ...
No way Rox repeat without Drexler ...being a GREAT example of this ...the standing pat or losing guys have failed the Spurs, Pistons and the Celts hopefull the Lakers don't ...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Excellent post. I agree 100% and Feel the EXACT same about te Lakers ...how many teams have repeated or made retrned trips to the FINALS with the WHOLE cast staying EXACTLY the same? You need a move (especially a vet that's never been there) like a Carter or an Artest to bring some of that "hunger, that thirst" for a title. Defending champs have a unique swagger to them but there is fin line between that swagger and complacency some changes help alleviate that ...


No doubt, ask the Suns how, "We think we were the best team in 2007, so we're just gonna trot the same group out there for the next two years," worked out.

[spursfan1000]

Good move by Orlando I don't see how this will hurt their team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well the Suns are a prime example of how changing your entire team mid-season can fuck it up forever.


People who actually think the Suns would have done anything that season if they kept Marion are a prime example of stupidity.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Didnt mean Marion.

Meant Bell and Diaw and wanting that goon Shaq.


"that goon" with 4 championships who was their best player last season

And :lmao @ saying trading Bell and Diaw hurt them. Bell demanded a trade and Diaw was as lazy as it gets.

[JamStone]

Well the Suns are a prime example of how changing your entire team mid-season can fuck it up forever.

Mid July is not mid-season for the NBA.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You also got J-Rich and Barnes, who combine equal to negative 100000000 on the IQ scale!


The signed Barnes, Dudley was the other player in the trade.

And that trade didn't help them and didn't hurt them. All it did was give a little flexibility cause J-Rich's contract expires a year before Diaw's.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Mid July is not mid-season for the NBA.


?????

[Rogue]

Nelson/ Alston/Lawson
Pietrus/ Lee/Reddick
Turk/ Outlaw/G.Wallace/Maggette
Lewis/ Milsap/Bass
Howard/ Gortat
It's talent-wasting to own 3 superstars and a decent starting-caliber player at the same position, obviously such a squad can't last long until there comes kind of an implosion. jajajajajaja :lmao

[BUMP]

?????

He's talking about Orlando

[JamStone]

?????

Yeah, silly me.

I was thinking he was tying in what he said about the Suns to the actual topic of the thread instead of just randomly blasting Suns and Suns fan when he talked about "mid-season" trades fucking up franchises.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah, silly me.

I was thinking he was tying in what he said about the Suns to the actual topic of the thread instead of just randomly blasting Suns and Suns fan when he talked about "mid-season" trades fucking up franchises.


Idk if that was I hidden jab at me but I was relating it to the thread. I was saying that the 2007 Suns are an example of why the Magic needed to make so many improvements.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well it was about standing PAT and the Suns do fit the example of fucking up midseason by overhauling


I would make a thread about this but I don't wanna get pinked, so I'm gonna post this fuckin shit show the fuckin retarded people who think the Shaq trade was bad why it needed to be done. For the first 50 games of the 2007-2008 season when the Suns didn't have Shaq, these are the games big men were having against them:

Ilgauskas: 22 points, 13 rebounds.......7 offensive
Shaq: 25 points, 10 rebounds........6 offensive
Howard: 33 points, 18 rebounds......7 offensive
Ming: 31 points, 13 rebounds........3 offensive
Howard: 30 points, 23 rebounds.......5 offensive
Jefferson: 32 points, 20 rebounds.........6 offensive
Bosh: 42 points, 13 rebounds........6 offensive
Bynum: 28 points, 12 rebounds........8 offensive
Jefferson: 39 points, 15 rebounds.......8 offensive
Duncan: 36 points, 17 rebounds.......6 offensive
Bogut: 29 points, 11 rebounds........3 offensive
Bogut: 19 points, 13 rebounds........5 offensive
Jermain O'neal: 30 points, 11 rebounds......2 offensive
Ilgauskas: 21 points, 10 rebounds.......5 offensive
Chandler: 19 points, 10 rebounds......6 offensive
Kaman:22 points, 20 rebounds........6 offensive
Eddy Curry: 21 points, 8 rebounds......5 offensive


All of those occured over the same 50 game stretch. Should a team with that kind of interior defense not be making any trades at all?

[weebo]

Excellent post. I agree 100% and Feel the EXACT same about the Lakers ...how many teams have repeated or made return trips to the FINALS with the WHOLE cast staying EXACTLY the same? You need a move (especially a vet that's never been there) like a Carter or an Artest to bring some of that "hunger, that thirst" for a title. Defending champs have a unique swagger to them the helps pulls out close games but there is also a fine line between that swagger and complacency... some changes help alleviate that ...
No way Rox repeat without Drexler ...being a GREAT example of this ...the standing pat or losing guys have failed the Spurs, Pistons and the Celts hopefull the Lakers don't ...

And you can always make the case that adding new vets like Carter and Artest can be a detriment to the cohesion of a championship group. I really don't buy this notion that changing the cast will automatically make the team hungrier.

You lose Ariza, Hedo, and even possibly Odom and bring in new pieces that might not fit and so long championship run. The only way it works if the players involved can assimilate themselves into the system. The fill the void that was left behind and then some.

BTW, the Spurs have never stood pat after a championship aside from their big four (TD, Manu, TP, and BB). That's the problem see--bringing new faces (old at that) that didn't fit well into the system.

[jack sommerset]

That guy is a pretty good player for that team. He can get streaky with the 3 ball, gives them more toughness. Not going to get them to the finals because of what the Cavs,Celtics did this off season but alot of teams would like to have him.

[Killakobe81]

And you can always make the case that adding new vets like Carter and Artest can be a detriment to the cohesion of a championship group. I really don't buy this notion that changing the cast will automatically make the team hungrier.

You lose Ariza, Hedo, and even possibly Odom and bring in new pieces that might not fit and so long championship run. The only way it works if the players involved can assimilate themselves into the system. The fill the void that was left behind and then some.

BTW, the Spurs have never stood pat after a championship aside from their big four (TD, Manu, TP, and BB). That's the problem see--bringing new faces (old at that) that didn't fit well into the system.


Spurs fans explaining how to repeat ... LOL!!! Just kidding ...

How many teams have repeated since the Celts did it we have Lakers one 3 peat once, Pistons once , Bulls 3 peat twice, Rockets once ...all teams made some major deals EXCEPT Bulls and 3 peat Lakers because thet had two dominant stars and only need to tinker with role players ...

For example on this site even BEFORE manu got hurt the past few years many where calling for the return of Capt SJAX or VC trade because they knew Spurs did not have enough to repeat, or get back to FInals ...
But Spurs stood pat for the most part and lost ground ...
Pop finally admitted his mistake traded key vet Bowen for RJ signed dice ...now that is how you approach a title even aFTER you win one ...

Heck even Celts could argue healthy KG, they win title but yet they make moves ...

[Culburn369]

Pop finally admitted his mistake

Ipso facto, breaking his [mistake cherry] in the process.

[TheSpursFNRule]

Orlando is stacked and has gotten better since last year. Anyone who doesn't agree is kind of crazy.

[JamStone]

And you can always make the case that adding new vets like Carter and Artest can be a detriment to the cohesion of a championship group. I really don't buy this notion that changing the cast will automatically make the team hungrier.

You lose Ariza, Hedo, and even possibly Odom and bring in new pieces that might not fit and so long championship run. The only way it works if the players involved can assimilate themselves into the system. The fill the void that was left behind and then some.

BTW, the Spurs have never stood pat after a championship aside from their big four (TD, Manu, TP, and BB). That's the problem see--bringing new faces (old at that) that didn't fit well into the system.

Every team in the league changes at least a little bit every season. We're talking about making a significant or major move.

The Spurs haven't made a lot of major moves unless out of necessity (Robinson retiring). Bringing in new players who are valued at the MLE or less isn't a major move most of the time.

During the Shaq-Kobe Lakers three-peat, they made changes each time, from Glen Rice to JR Rider to Mitch Richmond for additional perimeter scoring.

[Culburn369]

Orlando is stacked and has gotten better since last year. Anyone who doesn't agree is kind of crazy.

They've added a mish mash of waiver wire materiel.

Signed,

- kind of crazy

[JamStone]

Well it was about standing PAT and the Suns do fit the example of fucking up midseason by overhauling


Idk if that was I hidden jab at me but I was relating it to the thread. I was saying that the 2007 Suns are an example of why the Magic needed to make so many improvements.


I dont think its a jab, but it did fit into the topic.

My point was that if it was a comment to tie into Orlando making moves, I was saying it wasn't directly relevant since Orlando is not making these changes "midseason." Mid July is not in the middle of the NBA season like the changes the Suns made.

[Culburn369]

Mitch Richmond for additional perimeter scoring.

He couldn't stop shaking long enough to draw a bead after lighting in LA County. No problem at all up North, though. Tracy Murray Jr.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My point was that if it was a comment to tie into Orlando making moves, I was saying it wasn't directly relevant since Orlando is not making these changes "midseason." Mid July is not in the middle of the NBA season like the changes the Suns made.

I was saying the Suns stood pat during the 2007 off season and it wound up killing them.

[JamStone]

I was saying the Suns stood pat during the 2007 off season and it wound up killing them.

But my post that you "????" was directed at Mr. Balkman for the "midseason" comment.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But my post that you "????" was directed at Mr. Balkman for the "midseason" comment.


Got it.

[all_heart]

Orlando is stacked and has gotten better since last year. Anyone who doesn't agree is kind of crazy.

I'm not convinced VC will work out in Orlando, I think he's lost his heart and I'm not sure how he'll get along w/coach Van Gundy. He expects a lot and if he has to call out VC, I'm not sure how VC will respond. Matt Barnes showed some promise a few years ago in GS, but then he went to Phx.. so of course his IQ is considered low...

[Ghazi]

Dick Jefferson :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Matt Barnes showed some promise a few years ago in GS, but then he went to Phx.. so of course his IQ is considered low...


If you think Matt Barnes never had a shot selection problem prior to last year then go die.

[duncan228]

One source told ESPN.com that Barnes and the Magic have agreed in principle on a two-year deal for an undisclosed amount that could be announced as early as Tuesday.

It's official.

F Matt Barnes agrees to 2-year deal with Magic (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-magic-barnes&prov=ap&type=lgns)

Well-traveled free-agent forward Matt Barnes has agreed to a two-year contract with the Orlando Magic.

Barnes’ agent, Aaron Goodwin, who also represents Magic All-Star center Dwight Howard, confirmed the deal in an e-mail Monday, but declined to disclose financial terms.

The Magic said they had nothing to announce yet.

The 6-foot-7 Barnes averaged a career-high 10.2 points, 5.5 rebounds and 2.8 assists per game in 77 games last season for the Phoenix Suns. The Magic will be his seventh team in his seven NBA seasons.

Barnes is the latest offseason acquisition for the Eastern Conference champions, who earlier added Vince Carter, power forward Brandon Bass and power forward Ryan Anderson.

[all_heart]

If you think Matt Barnes never had a shot selection problem prior to last year then go die.

He was in GS! It was to be expected. At least he made some shots for Nelly! He did help get an 8th seed past a (weak) 1st seed.

[all_heart]

I'm not sure Dick Jefferson will work out in San Antonio. Accordig to Dick, he has lost his heart, and he said it could take him six months, to years to recover. Spurs fans expect a lot out of Dick, and I'm not sure how he responds.

He'll do better here than Artest will do in LA. You guys lost a good thing in Ariza. Too bad soo sad.. :rollin

[all_heart]

Everybody needs to relax on the Magic-bashing. I am not a Magic fan, but they are damn good! Did everybody forget how good Pietrus was?! He's very athletic and plays great defense. Their starting lineup:

Howard
Rashard Lewis
Pietrus
Vinsanity
Jameer Nelson

That is 4 all-star caliber players and another emerging athlete. Yikes.

Check out this blog I found. Hilarious stuff, and a great piece on SA's own Timmy D.
http://popcornmuscles.com/2009/07/comed/

Good but not scary.. I think a healthy Boston team is much better than a healthy Magic team. Howard is going to have to rebound all those clankers that will going up soon! When VC is doing his goofy motorcycle impression crap, he's going to get beat up the floor.. wait and see.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He'll do better here than Artest will do in LA. You guys lost a good thing in Ariza. Too bad soo sad.. :rollin


How did he do the season after that in Golden State cock face. Don't base a 6 year career off one fluke season.

[Red Hawk #21]

How did he do the season after that in Golden State cock face. Don't base a 6 year career off one fluke season.

Exactly. Matt Bricks has become overrated because of his 2007 1st round playoff performance. Bricks is garbage, and he'll be even more garbage on the Magic since they aren't a fastbreak team.

[angelbelow]

Watchin matt play, I always thought he was a nice player.

[picc84]

Not an impact signing. Orlando is no better or worse.

Marquis Daniels to Boston is an impact signing. They have the best team in the league as is imo. They could win 70 games if everyone stays healthy.

[all_heart]

Exactly. Matt Bricks has become overrated because of his 2007 1st round playoff performance. Bricks is garbage, and he'll be even more garbage on the Magic since they aren't a fastbreak team.

I never said the guy was great, I said he showed some promise (talking about Barnes here). He didn't work out in Phoenix, who knows in Orlando. The Magic aren't a fast break team.. especially now that they let Lee go.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I never said the guy was great, I said he showed some promise. He didn't work out in Phoenix, who knows in Orlando. The Magic aren't a fast break team.. especially now that they let Lee go.


1 fluke season over a 6 year career isn't promise.

[all_heart]

1 fluke season over a 6 year career isn't promise.

Maybe not, but why are you bitchin.. he's out of Phx now.

[dirk4mvp]

I never said the guy was great, I said he showed some promise (talking about Barnes here). He didn't work out in Phoenix, who knows in Orlando. The Magic aren't a fast break team.. especially now that they let Lee go.

The guy is 29 years old. If he hasn't by now, he's not going to deliver on that promise.

[bigdog]

Orlando is stacked and has gotten better since last year. Anyone who doesn't agree is kind of crazy.

I'll take Hedo Turkoglu and Courtney Lee ahead of Vince Carter and Matt Barnes any day.

[all_heart]

i'll take hedo turkoglu and courtney lee ahead of vince carter and matt barnes any day.

+1

[all_heart]

The guy is 29 years old. If he hasn't by now, he's not going to deliver on that promise.

You are probably right.. but then again I didn't think much of Rashard Lewis until he got to Orlando. Even now he's no franchise player.. that's for sure.

[anonoftheinternets]

man the east teams are lookin scary ... all stacked to the top ...gonna be one big blood bath next year .. cant wait ...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You are probably right.. but then again I didn't think much of Rashard Lewis until he got to Orlando. Even now he's no franchise player.. that's for sure.


Rashard Lewis had a VERY solid career before signing with Orlando.....pretty sure he was an all star in 2005.

[Culburn369]

I'll take Hedo Turkoglu and Courtney Lee ahead of Vince Carter and Matt Barnes any day.

Stick all four in a burlap sack (a real big one), close your eyes, reach in and it wouldn't make a dime's worth of difference which one you pulled out.

[Hornets1]

Rashard Lewis had a VERY solid career before signing with Orlando.....pretty sure he was an all star in 2005.

Yea, But never worth that contract. Same year peja got his rediculous contract. Twas the summer of overpaying for shooters.

[iggypop123]

while lewis will thrive as a SF and head to head destroys Pierce on the block, they should have just kept turk o glue

[picc84]

Vince Carter is an upgrade to Hedo in every aspect of basketball. Moving Pietrus into the starting lineup offsets the loss of Lee along with Andersen and Barnes acquisitions.

[DAF86]

Vince Carter is an upgrade to Hedo in every aspect of basketball. Moving Pietrus into the starting lineup offsets the loss of Lee along with Andersen and Barnes acquisitions.

No he isn't. you must be one of those fans that let himself get caught up with flashyness instead of effectivity. I bet you also think that T-Mac is better than Manu.

[EricB]

Vince Carter is an upgrade to Hedo in every aspect of basketball. Moving Pietrus into the starting lineup offsets the loss of Lee along with Andersen and Barnes acquisitions.

Gigantic fail...

[Culburn369]

you must be one of those fans that let himself get caught up with [flashyness instead of effectivity].

DAF means [symbolism over substance].

[KidCongo]

WHo is the better PNR player. Hedo or VC?

[Epic Fail]

Vince Carter is an upgrade to Hedo in every aspect of basketball. Moving Pietrus into the starting lineup offsets the loss of Lee along with Andersen and Barnes acquisitions.

howdy:toast

[picc84]

No he isn't. you must be one of those fans that let himself get caught up with flashyness instead of effectivity. I bet you also think that T-Mac is better than Manu.

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

[JamStone]

VC is better than Hedo and it has nothing to do with flashiness or glitz. People hate on Vince because he's never really lived up to his talents. That doesn't mean Hedo's better. Vince is better than Hedo at just about everything. Hedo is a slightly better shooter but negligibly so. And he might have an edge at rebounding because of his height, length, and the fact he's played down low more. But Vince is still better, a superior scorer, better (and underrated) playmaker, better bball IQ, better athlete, better defender, and has done it as the clear #1 guy on teams. Even when Hedo has had good seasons, he's not been the main option, sometimes the third or fourth option. I think it's pretty foolish to think Hedo is better just because Vince hasn't lived up to expectations.

[DAF86]

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better. Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate, he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time, etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.

[all_heart]

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

I like Manu's hustle better than T-Mac, the kind of things that don't show in the stat sheet.
T-Mac may get red hot when he's on but then again he takes a lot of shots.

Hedo's attitude is better than VC, but :wgaf: anyway? The chances of them making it back to the Finals and facing my Spurs or your Lakers are slim anyway.

Personally I think both Denver and Orlando will fade this season. Certain teams that do well in the PO will falter the next. It happens every year. This year it's those two teams and probably the Rockets.

[Culburn369]

McGrady is a loser.

Manu is a winner.

---They each wear their attendant cloak in plain sight.

[JamStone]

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better. Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate, he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time, etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.


Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

[all_heart]

Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

You do have a couple good points about Hedo, and if we ever see VC deep into the PO we can see what he's made of.. or at least what he has left. :wow

[hater]

Hedo >>> VC in the playoffs. Hedo 10x more clutch than VC. noone can deny this.

[picc84]

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better.

From what i've seen, no. Turkoglu takes just as many bad shots, maybe more. He averages more turnovers as well. And he certainly doesn't make teammates better than Carter does. Dont know how you could have concluded that.


Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate

Turk does that all the time. :lol Carter does too but he's a better shooter than Hedo so he converts them more. Kind of in the way Kobe takes horrible shots a lot but a bad shot from Kobe has a higher chance of going in than a bad shot from Hedo. Same with Vince.


he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time

So does Turk. Thats part of why he averages more TO's than Carter.


etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.

I think you're wrong, but i'm sure both of us are excited for the upcoming season to find out. Vince's bball IQ is underrated and he's still better at 90% of basketball aspects than Hedo. Orlando fans are in for a nice surprise and the rest of us are in for a bad one.

[picc84]

I like Manu's hustle better than T-Mac, the kind of things that don't show in the stat sheet.

I agree.


T-Mac may get red hot when he's on but then again he takes a lot of shots.

True. But when healthy, he's also better at the other basketball skills than Manu. Playmaking, defense, rebounding. In addition to scoring. He's just a better player than Manu is, even accounting for Manu's intangibles that McGrady doesn't have.

Saying that, I take Manu without hesitation considering Tmac will likely never be more than a shell of his former self.

Hedo's attitude is better than VC, but :wgaf: anyway? The chances of them making it back to the Finals and facing my Spurs or your Lakers are slim anyway.

That depends. I think they will beat Cleveland again but will lose to Boston. It depends how the seedings end up at the end of the season.


Personally I think both Denver and Orlando will fade this season. Certain teams that do well in the PO will falter the next. It happens every year. This year it's those two teams and probably the Rockets.

Denvers been left behind a bit by standing pat. Orlando, I strongly disagree with you. Getting Nelson back for the full season at full health along with Vince Carter in place of Turkoglu makes them as good as anyone. Remember they beat Cleveland without Nelson.

[DAF86]

Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

You have to separate crunch time from the rest of the game. Most guys take awful shots at the end of games 'cause usually the plays called are all one on one, besides you have the "nervousness" and the "time" factor to consider. I'm not a big fan of Hedo's fadeaways at the end of games but he has made a reputation of beign a clutch player.


And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

I know he's a good passer (so is Turkoglu) the thing is that for every great pass or basket he makes there's a lazy/selfish 20 foot fade-away. To be effective he needs to use a lot of possesions.

[JamStone]

Hedo has had his share of clutch shots and big games in the playoffs, more than Vince because Hedo has been on more playoff teams. Remember once again that Hedo on all of those teams was at best the third or fourth option, rarely if ever being double teamed or collapsed on. People are disregarding how wildly inconsistent Hedo is even in the playoffs and just remember his big shots. How about the first round of the playoffs against Philly where Hedo shot 7-for-30 from the field in the first three games, two of which were at Orlando. How about game 6 against Boston again in Orlando where he shot 3-for-13 for 7 points? Again in game 7 against Cleveland when he shot 3-for-12, but was bailed out by his teammates. He would choke in finals as well. People ignore those performances and forsake them for a memorable clutch shot or two.

And again that's as the third option on the team. Vince has always been the no. 1 guy on offense for his teams and thus the ultimate fall guy. It's not just in the clutch, Vince throughout his career has been a better passer and playmaker than Hedo, at any point during the game. Look at his playoff numbers as the no. 1 guy. Even in his last post season (06-07) he put up 22 ppg, 7 rpg, and 5 apg. As the go to guy facing double teams and collapsing defenses.

It's really a shame some of you think Hedo is a better player.

[all_heart]

I agree.



True. But when healthy, he's also better at the other basketball skills than Manu. Playmaking, defense, rebounding. In addition to scoring. He's just a better player than Manu is, even accounting for Manu's intangibles that McGrady doesn't have.

Saying that, I take Manu without hesitation considering Tmac will likely never be more than a shell of his former self.


That depends. I think they will beat Cleveland again but will lose to Boston. It depends how the seedings end up at the end of the season.



Denvers been left behind a bit by standing pat. Orlando, I strongly disagree with you. Getting Nelson back for the full season at full health along with Vince Carter in place of Turkoglu makes them as good as anyone. Remember they beat Cleveland without Nelson.

--No way Manu is a much better playmaker and defender than T-Mac. I've seen T-Mac give up on plays and not bother getting back on D.
They are good because their coach is good, he's driving them to succeed. Howard is good but he's just along for the good times NBA ride, SVG is making him work harder than he normally would. Last year Orlando had more parts of the puzzle than Cleveland, that's why they won. If Orlando was that good, they wouldn't have folded against the Lakers. I really don't think any team is "scared" of Orlando, VC or not. They lost Lee, he was a solid contributer, who's going to replace him? VC could be a nice suprise for them this year, who knows, but that definetely remains to be seen.

[picc84]

--No way Manu is a much better playmaker and defender than T-Mac. I've seen T-Mac give up on plays and not bother getting back on D.

Remember, i'm saying when both are healthy. Gimpy tmac this past year couldnt defend JJ Reddick. Even healthy he takes plays off but his max defensive effort is superior to Ginobili's.

Manu is just not a better playmaker/passer in any sense of the word. That shouldnt even be a question.


They are good because their coach is good, he's driving them to succeed. Howard is good but he's just along for the good times NBA ride, SVG is making him work harder than he normally would. Last year Orlando had more parts of the puzzle than Cleveland, that's why they won. If Orlando was that good, they wouldn't have folded against the Lakers. I really don't think any team is "scared" of Orlando, VC or not. They lost Lee, he was a solid contributer, who's going to replace him? VC could be a nice suprise for them this year, who knows, but that definetely remains to be seen.

Well, we'll see. Honestly I hope you're right because with the pieces they have now, i'm concerned.

[picc84]

I know he's a good passer (so is Turkoglu) the thing is that for every great pass or basket he makes there's a lazy/selfish 20 foot fade-away. To be effective he needs to use a lot of possesions.

I disagree. He only takes around 16 shots per game, 3 more shots a game than Hedo, but scores more and shoots at a higher %. He's going to have an easier time getting to the rim now with defensive attention focused on Howard, Lewis, and Nelson as well.

[DAF86]

Hedo has had his share of clutch shots and big games in the playoffs, more than Vince because Hedo has been on more playoff teams. Remember once again that Hedo on all of those teams was at best the third or fourth option, rarely if ever being double teamed or collapsed on. People are disregarding how wildly inconsistent Hedo is even in the playoffs and just remember his big shots. How about the first round of the playoffs against Philly where Hedo shot 7-for-30 from the field in the first three games, two of which were at Orlando. How about game 6 against Boston again in Orlando where he shot 3-for-13 for 7 points? Again in game 7 against Cleveland when he shot 3-for-12, but was bailed out by his teammates. He would choke in finals as well. People ignore those performances and forsake them for a memorable clutch shot or two.

And again that's as the third option on the team. Vince has always been the no. 1 guy on offense for his teams and thus the ultimate fall guy. It's not just in the clutch, Vince throughout his career has been a better passer and playmaker than Hedo, at any point during the game. Look at his playoff numbers as the no. 1 guy. Even in his last post season (06-07) he put up 22 ppg, 7 rpg, and 5 apg. As the go to guy facing double teams and collapsing defenses.

It's really a shame some of you think Hedo is a better player.

Just for the record I'm not saying that Turkoglu is a better player than Carter I'm saying that the Turk is a better fit for Orlando.
I agree that Turkoglu is a very inconsistent player but even when his shot isn't falling he still plays the right way, makes the pass when he has to and shoots when he's open, he doesn't force the issue (unless is crunch time) Carter on the other hand you know that no matter how bad he's shooting he will still put up 15/18 shots.

[DAF86]

I disagree. He only takes around 16 shots per game, 3 more shots a game than Hedo, but scores more and shoots at a higher %. He's going to have an easier time getting to the rim now with defensive attention focused on Howard, Lewis, and Nelson as well.

Carter has a career average of around 20 shots per game.

[DAF86]

Manu is just not a better playmaker/passer in any sense of the word. That shouldnt even be a question.

GTFO have you seen Manu play?

[DAF86]

yYkFlrW_cqs
IGCelYVAQdQ
TOf2axeWHgk
This last video watch it form the 0:27 mark to the 1:23 mark.

[JamStone]

It's interesting to read different opinions of players.

I've never really considered Hedo a great playmaker or one who made teammates better. He has nice, versatile skills and can handle the ball and pass. But he's not some great playmaker imo. When he defers during stretches of games, it's more about him drifting or coasting. He's not really setting up teammates. He's more just being non-existent. And he's not known as a player who makes the right play or plays the right way, crunchtime or not. He's a good player but some of you are hyping him way too much in order to blast on VC.

As for Vince, he has often taken a lot of shots because that's what his teams have required from him. He's always been a willing passer. In his four and a half years in New Jersey, he averaged just under5 assists a game, despite playing with a PG who did most of the play making and averaged 8-10 assists himself.

I think Vince is a better fit in Orlando actually because he's a bonafide go-to scorer who will force defenses to focus attention on him and won't "always" settle for jumpers. This will be the most talent he's played with in his career. Vince isn't like AI. He can play without dominating the ball and still be effective.

[picc84]

Carter has a career average of around 20 shots per game.

For a player of Vince's caliber, thats not that many. At all. In addition, the more relevant stat is right now, or last season. When he took 16 shots a game on a higher % than Turkoglu. Thats not a volume shooter by any stretch.

[picc84]

GTFO have you seen Manu play?

Of course. The spurs are my second favorite team, I watch them all the time.

Have you seen McGrady play? Even this year when he was almost paraplegic he was averaging 1.5 more assists than Ginobili. In 07 and 08 he averaged 5.9 ad 6.5 assists. He is unequivocally a better passer and playmaker than Manu. Thats one thing that should never be in contention.

[rjv]

skill wise, a healthy mcgrady is better than manu but IQ and clutch wise he is not on manu's level. i would have to take a healthy manu over a healthy t-mac.

[picc84]

yYkFlrW_cqs
IGCelYVAQdQ
TOf2axeWHgk
This last video watch it form the 0:27 mark to the 1:23 mark.

:lol

There are probably similar videos for every shooting guard in the league.

I'm not saying Manu is a BAD playmaker. He's just not as good as Tmac. Youtube videos dont disprove that.

[DAF86]

It's interesting to read different opinions of players.

I've never really considered Hedo a great playmaker or one who made teammates better. He has nice, versatile skills and can handle the ball and pass. But he's not some great playmaker imo. When he defers during stretches of games, it's more about him drifting or coasting. He's not really setting up teammates. He's more just being non-existent. And he's not known as a player who makes the right play or plays the right way, crunchtime or not. He's a good player but some of you are hyping him way too much in order to blast on VC.

As for Vince, he has often taken a lot of shots because that's what his teams have required from him. He's always been a willing passer. In his four and a half years in New Jersey, he averaged just under5 assists a game, despite playing with a PG who did most of the play making and averaged 8-10 assists himself.

I think Vince is a better fit in Orlando actually because he's a bonafide go-to scorer who will force defenses to focus attention on him and won't "always" settle for jumpers. This will be the most talent he's played with in his career. Vince isn't like AI. He can play without dominating the ball and still be effective.

And there's nothing wrong with that, that's part of playing "the right way", I prefer that to a player that goes 6 for 20 in a game and doesn't allow his teammates to develop any kind of confidence.

[JamStone]

Problem is that is not Vince Carter. You really have a warped and inaccurate perception of Vince Carter.

[DAF86]

Of course. The spurs are my second favorite team, I watch them all the time.

Have you seen McGrady play? Even this year when he was almost paraplegic he was averaging 1.5 more assists than Ginobili. In 07 and 08 he averaged 5.9 ad 6.5 assists. He is unequivocally a better passer and playmaker than Manu. Thats one thing that should never be in contention.

So? Parker averages more assts than Manu and ask any Spurs fan who of the two is the better passer/playmaker. The reason McGrady averages more assts than Manu is 'cause he plays more minutes and has the ball in his hands a lot more.

[JamStone]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

[picc84]

Problem is that is not Vince Carter. You really have a warped and inaccurate perception of Vince Carter.

Right. Vince has never been a freeze the teammates out guy. Even if he's shooting a lot he's still getting guys involved.

[picc84]

So? Parker averages more assts than Manu and ask any Spurs fan who of the two is the better passer/playmaker. The reason McGrady averages more assts than Manu is 'cause he plays more minutes and has the ball in his hands a lot more.

Agree to disagree.

But you're still wrong. : d

[DAF86]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

Now go see how many times did Turkoglu do that, or better yet go see how many times he took 20 or more shots in a game.

[DAF86]

Agree to disagree.

But you're still wrong. : d

Yep, that's pretty much what happens in here :lol

Oh, and I saw what you did there. Little bitch

[picc84]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

In addition, Orlando can diversify their offense now. Too often last year their O consisted of "give it to Dwight" or "pass around perimeter for 3 pointer". They now have a guy they can isolate on the wing and who can draw double teams on the perimeter. Hedo didn't do that.

[picc84]

Yep, that's pretty much what happens in here

Oh, and I saw what you did there. Little bitch

Was that really necessary? :lol

[DAF86]

In addition, Orlando can diversify their offense now. Too often last year their O consisted of "give it to Dwight" or "pass around perimeter for 3 pointer". They now have a guy they can isolate on the wing and who can draw double teams on the perimeter. Hedo didn't do that.

WTF? yes, yes he did.

[DAF86]

Was that really necessary? :lol

:lol I kid, I kid.

P/S: I had to quote you just to check.

[JamStone]

Now go see how many times did Turkoglu do that, or better yet go see how many times did he take 20 or more shots in a game.



Wasn't your point. We all could reasonably assume Hedo didn't take a lot of shots on a team with D12, Lewis, and Jameer.

Your point was to make Vince Carter appear to be a player he's not. Unless once every 40 games is evidence of what type of player VC is, then your comments and perception of Vince are inaccurate.

[23LeBronJames23]

McGrady is better than Ginobili !!!

[ElNono]

Count my vote for Manu being the better playmaker/passer.
Also put me down for TMac being the better shooter and more talented overall.
I think they're both extremely good as far as penetration goes, with TMac being more athletic and Manu being more crafty.
Obviously, this is when both are healthy.
They've both expressed admiration of the other's game. TMac even attempting to pull one of Manu's signature moves during the AllStar game they shared back 2005.

[DAF86]

Wasn't your point. We all could reasonably assume Hedo didn't take a lot of shots on a team with D12, Lewis, and Jameer.

Your point was to make Vince Carter appear to be a player he's not. Unless once every 40 games is evidence of what type of player VC is, then your comments and perception of Vince is inaccurate.

You know how hard is to make 6 or less FG in 20 or more shots? just to do it once in your career is bad enough, but to make it twice in just a season...

My point is this: If I need a first option player I would probably pick Carter over Turkoglu but if I need a 2nd or 3rd option to gel with his teammates in a championship team I'd pick Hedo.

[DAF86]

McGrady is better than Ginobili !!!

McGrady is the more physically gifted player, Ginobili is the better player.

[23LeBronJames23]

McGrady is the more physically gifted player, Ginobili is the better player.

i would still take Tmac over Nobli anytime!

[all_heart]

i would still take Tmac over Nobli anytime!

Go right ahead, I'll take Manu, get out of the first round and show you my :lobt2:next time we meet up! :lol

[picc84]

lol Yes he did. Many times per game in fact.

Really? Didn't seem like it at all.

[JamStone]

You know how hard is to make 6 or less FG in 20 or more shots? just to do it once in your career is bad enough, but to make it twice in just a season...

Interesting. I'd love for you to tell me how horrible Tim Duncan is since he has multiple games in his career where he's taken 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer, including a gem of 6-for-29 against the Raptors. Tell us how especially bad that is considering he's a 6-11 low post scorer.

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili also have had such performances. They must not be good teammates who make other players better.



My point is this: If I need a first option player I would probably pick Carter over Turkoglu but if I need a 2nd or 3rd option to gel with his teammates in a championship team I'd pick Hedo.

Your point is lost in your obvious bias. You really want to keep arguing your silliness?

[DAF86]

Interesting. I'd love for you to tell me how horrible Tim Duncan is since he has multiple games in his career where he's taken 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer, including a gem of 6-for-29 against the Raptors. Tell us how especially bad that is considering he's a 6-11 low post scorer.

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili also have had such performances. They must not be good teammates who make other players better.

Now you're just making shit up, I'd really like to know in what game Manu did that. I think I can count with the fingers of my hands how many times Ginobili took 20 or more shots in a game and in all of them he had a good scoring night but I could be wrong so I want you to tell me.


Your point is lost in your obvious bias. You really want to keep arguing your silliness?

I don't have anything against VC or in favour of Hedo, I just call it how I see it. In fact I'd rather see Carter playing than Turkoglu.

[JamStone]

Now you're just making shit up, I'd really like to know in what game Manu did that. I think I can count with the fingers of my hands how many times Ginobili took 20 or more shots in a game and in all of them he had a good scoring night but I could be wrong so I want you to tell me.

Link: Enough, stop arguing this with me (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280228024)

[DAF86]

Link: Enough, stop arguing this with me (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280228024)

lol good thing I said I could be wrong. Now let me ask you this: How the fuck do you remember that? Did you remember the game or you just look it up 'till you find it?

[JamStone]

I looked it up. Went to basketball reference and did a quick search. It's easy because they have a feature of all the game logs of every player for every season. It takes about a minute to look over a full season scrolling down. Takes a little bit of effort, but minimal effort if you know what you're doing. Just wanted to make the point using Spurs players.

[spursfan1000]

Matt Barnes would have been a good fit for Spurs but oh well.

[DAF86]

Why does it matter DAF. JamStone owned you

Why does it matter what? I don't get what you're trying to say. And did you see me trying to dispute something? I took it like a man.

[pauls931]

How the hell did a thread with matt barnes go six pages?