Stein: Odds still favor Odom's returning to fold

[2Cleva]

Odds still favor Odom's returning to fold
By Marc Stein

If the Lakers re-sign Lamar Odom, their chances of repeating as champs will increase tremendously.

The prospect of Lamar Odom's leaving the Los Angeles Lakers would be a free-agent triumph for 29 teams in the NBA and anyone else fretting about the league's overall competitive health.

Which is exactly why many of those teams watching the Lakers' standoff with Odom haven't allowed themselves to get too excited, even after a week's worth of signals suggesting that Odom might actually wind up in Miami.

The Los Angeles Times reported in its Thursday editions that the sides resumed contract negotiations Wednesday for the first time since Lakers owner Jerry Buss pulled his three-year, $27 million offer to Odom off the table. One source with knowledge of the talks told ESPN.com on Thursday that the sides have actually maintained an informal level of contact throughout the impasse. What pretty much everyone on the NBA map sees is how costly it would be for L.A. if Odom -- for all the luxury-tax consequences a new deal would trigger -- did get away.

Keeping Odom, remember, keeps the newly minted champions clearly above the rest of the West, with three imposing big men to team with Kobe Bryant and Ron Artest.

Losing him to the Heat? Unless Andrew Bynum and Artest are prepared to deliver the consistency neither has regularly supplied in their careers, Odom's departure would abruptly start to balance out the famously (infamously?) lopsided nature of the Pau Gasol trade that enrages rival executives to this day.

It's a natural, then, for those same executives to presume that Buss -- understandably hesitant as he is to add another long-term contract to a payroll that could creep past $90 million next season -- would ultimately be forced to do just that if he wants to preserve the Lakers' standing as overwhelming favorites in the West. As any citizen of Lakerland could tell you, Gasol's arrival was such a landscape-changer because Odom and Bynum were already there.

It's no coincidence, furthermore, that the bulk of the big spending this offseason has been witnessed in the Eastern Conference, where Orlando, Cleveland and Boston seem to have been locked into an ongoing game of Can You Top This? Reason being: There's no clear-cut Lakers-like favorite at the top of the improving East. It couldn't surprise you next June if any of those three teams won the conference.

"The high-profile teams [in the East] are willing to spend," said one top executive. "Now tell me which playoff teams are spending money in the West."

Indeed. So far only San Antonio, Dallas and Portland (unsuccessfully) have shown any willingness to make aggressive (translation: expensive) moves, which can't be solely attributed to the global economic downturn and the steep potential decreases projected for next year's salary-cap and luxury-tax threshold.

Those factors have certainly widened the gap more than ever between the teams willing to spend what it takes to contend and the overwhelming majority that shivers at the mere mention of brushing up against the tax line, as my colleague J.A. Adande expertly laid out earlier this week. Yet you can't discount the Lakers Factor, either. The thought of trying to keep up with L.A. is daunting -- even futile -- for much of the rest of the West when the Lakers' roster features those three bigs and Kobe.

If Odom winds up in Miami, though, L.A. no longer looks so untouchable.

Odom's consolation prize looks far more appetizing than the Lakers' Plan B if the thaw in negotiations doesn't progress to a deal from here. The 29-year-old can sign a five-year deal with the Heat worth $34 million to reunite with Dwyane Wade, with no state taxes to pay (potentially earning him close to an extra $1 million annually) and with an opt-out provision after three years that would allow Odom to return to the free-agent market in 2012 with full Larry Bird rights in Miami.

The Lakers, meanwhile, would be starting their title defense without two of their key difference-makers from the playoffs -- Odom and Trevor Ariza -- as well as dealing with a sure-to-be-perturbed Bryant.

The Lakers went into the offseason hoping to convince Kobe to sign a contract extension after they sorted out the Ariza/Artest swap and Odom's status. You'll recall that Kobe also has the option of opting out again next June and joining the free-agent class of 2010 if he chooses.

So it is with good reason that Bryant and Derek Fisher have been openly optimistic about Odom's return in recent days, even though it's not yet clear how close the parties are to an actual agreement.

There are simply too many factors -- in spite of Buss' payroll concerns and a standing offer from the Heat that is pretty palatable given Miami's salary-cap limitations -- favoring an outcome that supremely disappoints 29 teams.

Again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=Odom-090723

I love the bitterness.

:toast

[Muser]

People still have sandy Vag's over that trade?

[iggypop123]

to summarize the article in one sentence : the entire nba is rooting for the heat to take odom cause if they dont the lakers are stacked, so at the end of the day stein believes odom is coming back

[urunobili]

Both the Lakers and the Grizz will pay their dues... I don't know when but they will...

[Culburn369]

Both the Lakers and the Grizz will pay their dues... I don't know when but they will...

Stings, don't it?

[IronMexican]

The Lajers are really paying. 2 Finals Appearances and 1 LOB. Karma really came back. At this point, thw Pau Gasol trade is already a success. How are they going t pay for it? The Luxury Tax? lol.

[MarHill]

Actually, I hope Odom signs back with the Lakers. The Spurs are right there and there's no guarantee the Lakers are going to win it all again.

Let the chips fall where they may!!!

[Culburn369]

Actually, I hope Odom signs back with the Lakers.

Sure you do, Mar.

[tmtcsc]

I want Lamar back with the Lakers. Bring it on ! All them suckas need to feel the pain that the Spurs will administer.

I want their top shelf lineup to get humiliated. Hell, they'll be lucky if Ron Ron doesn't wave Gasol or Odom out of his way and try to dribble against 3 dudes clogging the lane.

[cobbler]

I want Lamar back with the Lakers. Bring it on ! All them suckas need to feel the pain that the Spurs will administer.

I want their top shelf lineup to get humiliated. Hell, they'll be lucky if Ron Ron doesn't wave Gasol or Odom out of his way and try to dribble against 3 dudes clogging the lane.

...and someday you will wake up next to a piece of ass like in your avatar. It's nice to dream isn't it? :lmao

[cobbler]

Actually, I hope Odom signs back with the Lakers. The Spurs are right there and there's no guarantee the Lakers are going to win it all again.

Let the chips fall where they may!!!

...and your guarantee that the Spurs are right there is??????

[MarHill]

Sure you do, Mar.

Culburn369,

I have posted from the beginning that Odom should be back on the Lakers. It is a good fit....and I believe he will.

Also, if the Spurs beat the Lakers this year and if both teams are full strength there will be no excuses.

Spurs and Lakers have been the most successful franchises this decade and I have to admit the Lakers have won a majority of those series...because they've had the better team.

However, the Spurs have reloaded themselves like the Lakers did after Shaq left. I and most fans of both sides want the teams to be at full strength this season and let the chips fall where they may.

Of course, both teams fans will rationalize why they lost if they meet again in the playoffs. But...everyone knows from each side they want to see this matchup in WCF even if they don't want to admit it.

Well..I do admit it! (I know Mav fan, Blazer Fan, Rocket Fan, and Nugget fan will protest) But there is a history between the two teams and drama has existed in those games.

So yes.....I want Odom to re-sign with the Lakers!! And let's get it on!!!

:flag:

[MarHill]

...and your guarantee that the Spurs are right there is??????

If you don't think the Spurs are right there with the off-season moves.....then you are not being objective!

The Lakers are still the team to beat....I will admit it. But, I bet the Lakers FO are very aware with what their rival has done!!!

:flag:

[Culburn369]

Culburn369,

I have posted from the beginning that Odom should be back on the Lakers. It is a good fit....and I believe he will.

Also, if the Spurs beat the Lakers this year and if both teams are full strength there will be no excuses.

Spurs and Lakers have been the most successful franchises this decade and I have to admit the Lakers have won a majority of those series...because they've had the better team.

However, the Spurs have reloaded themselves like the Lakers did after Shaq left. I and most fans of both sides want the teams to be at full strength this season and let the chips fall where they may.

Of course, both teams fans will rationalize why they lost if they meet again in the playoffs. But...everyone knows from each side they want to see this matchup in WCF even if they don't want to admit it.

Well..I do admit it! (I know Mav fan, Blazer Fan, Rocket Fan, and Nugget fan will protest) But there is a history between the two teams and drama has existed in those games.

So yes.....I want Odom to re-sign with the Lakers!! And let's get it on!!!

:flag:

Frankly, I don't want you to be at full strength. I want me to be thusly, but, not you, Mar. I ain't run of the mill Lakers fan. Sure, the Lakers victory is swell, but, even better is when they don't lose. The loss in '84 is so much more keen & devastating than the cathartic victory of '85. It's difficult to explain, but, palpable at gross examination at least in the Culburn household.

[ulosturedge]

Odom is going to get what he wants after all and Buss is going to give it to him.

[Culburn369]

Odom is going to get what he wants after all and Buss is going to give it to him.

& then it starts...will the Odom of the '09 playoffs show up in November, or, will it be the Odom prior to the '09 playoffs who shows up.

In for penny|In for pound.

[hater]

"Odom's departure would abruptly start to balance out the famously (infamously?) lopsided nature of the Pau Gasol trade that enrages rival executives to this day."

:lmao

Stein knows his shit.


Odom will stay in LA

[hater]

You clowns are singing a new tune today. I guess the signing of 40 year old Ratliff have inspired some hope. You may as well have kept Oberto and Thomas if you were going to exchange them for RAtt and Dyess.

Sasha Vujachick, Luke Walton and Adam MOrrison

:lmao

[antgomez2009]

So Since the Lakers Won a championship after like a six year absence, the Lakers fans feel that have the edge over the Spurs in all categories! No excuse for the Lakers for a 6 year absence, no excuse for the SPurs for a Injury plagued season! Kobe with 4, Tim with 4.....

Both different players, but Tim owns the PF spot, Kobe still has to beat out Mj, which i doubt!

Aside from all this BS from both the Laker fans and yes my Spurs Fans, this UPCOMING Season and Playoffs will be "IMO" the best ever!

If the Lakers feel that the Trevor Ariza loss will not effect them, they are crazy! Without his steal against Denver, that Series turns in favor to Denver, Artest cant cut the defensive lanes like Trevor did! Ariza in my mind was their biggest X-factor, Young, fast, pretty dam good defensive player and determined!

The Lakers stayed the same, even if they sign Odom! Adam Morrison is your Trevor Ariza this year...lol...G.T.F.O.H.

As for the Spurs, they only got better!!!

Now i feel they have the players to compete at a high level!

Starting 5

Derek Fisher <<<Tony Parker

Kobe >>>>Roger Mason

R. Artest ==== Richard J

Tim Duncan >>>>Gasol

Bynum === Antonio. M (both 10 and 10 guys)


Bench + 1 for the Spurs

Lakers Bench =

Lamar Odom (pending) (good all around player, Match up problems because his size)
Sasaha whotheHeck (good 3pt shooter, poor mans bruce bowen D--shoot fly dont bother me)
Shanon B. (good reserve)
Adam Morrison (Best cheerleader)
J. Farmar (good pg, not consistent)
Luke Walton (getting better every year, still inconsistent)
Spurs
Manu G. (Dynamic Player, 6th player of the year)
Dejuan B. (awsome rebounding, Offensive Reb. + 1)
George Hill (good pg, good defensive because of length, inconsistent)
Theo Ratliff (block shots, kinda washed up, but good for 3rd possibly 2nd backup)
Finley (still a vet that can get it done without heavy mins.)
Bonner (starting C last year, not this year, good for spreading the floor!)
Malik Hairston (up and coming D-league player! can run the floor and hit shots! still needs a chance to prove himself)

[Culburn369]

I was just now slummin' over at phxsuns.net and came across this information:

http://www.phxsuns.net/ogenzen/statusicon/post_new.gif Yesterday, 08:49 PM #217 (http://www.phxsuns.net/showpost.php?p=99174&postcount=217) jkalldaway (http://www.phxsuns.net/member.php?u=266)
Hall Of Fame
http://www.phxsuns.net/images/ranks/halloffame.jpg

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,396
http://www.phxsuns.net/ogenzen/reputation/reputation_pos.gif


http://www.phxsuns.net/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: News for July 20 - 26, 2009
Looks like we wanted Oberto...and didn't get him.


Washington Post: Oberto chose the Wizards over Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Sacramento and the Lakers. He was hopeful for a return to San Antonio, where he spent his first four seasons, but the Spurs signed veteran center Theo Ratliff on Thursday.]]]

Damn, we were sniffin' after Fabs!

[Culburn369]

So Since the Lakers Won a championship after like a six year absence, the Lakers fans feel that have the edge over the Spurs in all categories!

Well, frankly, gomez, you fellows have never really been bonafide. The first one was a strike one (I ain't begrudgin') then the other three were scattered over the landscape in sequence like you were afraid of success.

I don't wish to hurt yer feelings, son, especially of a Friday morning, but, you guys are a little puny in our shadow.

[antgomez2009]

Well, frankly, gomez, you fellows have never really been bonafide. The first one was a strike one (I ain't begrudgin') then the other three were scattered over the landscape in sequence like you were afraid of success.

I don't wish to hurt yer feelings, son, especially of a Friday morning, but, you guys are a little puny in our shadow.


Puny in whos shadow, Kobe's! or The Lakers as a Fanchise! Cmon hollyWood!!!, we all know that The Lakers them selves are a Shadow of Kobe Bryant!

Oh and i know you'll take those 3 titles with Shaq at the Helm and kobe as a Sidekick!

Tim Duncan has brought Titles to the best of them! that Deserved it and retired soon after! so that makes the team, looking for new guys after there championship run, Hence taking them a year to get into things!

David Robinson
Avery Johnson
Danny Ferry
Kevin Willis
Sean E.
Steve Smith
Malik Rose
list still goes on!


I see Kobe needed much help with young and the restless!
Could he have won a championship with Kevin willis as a backup! Probably not!

Remember, Tim Ducan Helped THEM! feel what its like to win a championshp!!! after so many years of faliure!

Shaq and Kobe failed to do that for Payton and Malone!

Payton did get one in Miami! With SHAq might i add!

So all in all, it took six years for your Team the Lakers to Reload! and win a championship to a unexperienced team (but good, Orlando)

Would of lost to boston(KG was healthy) and Clevland! had they made it!

[Muser]

Cleveland would not of beat L.A, in fact L.A would of swept.

[antgomez2009]

Cleveland would not of beat L.A, in fact L.A would of swept.



Na, if you know basketball! its all about Match Ups....

Clevland and Boston (Healthy) are built to take on the Lakers! A sweep, Cmon man!

Get your BB IQ up!

[Culburn369]

Puny in whos shadow, Kobe's! or The Lakers as a Fanchise! Cmon hollyWood!!!, we all know that The Lakers them selves are a Shadow of Kobe Bryant!

Oh and i know you'll take those 3 titles with Shaq at the Helm and kobe as a Sidekick!

Tim Duncan has brought Titles to the best of them! that Deserved it and retired soon after! so that makes the team, looking for new guys after there championship run, Hence taking them a year to get into things!

David Robinson
Avery Johnson
Danny Ferry
Kevin Willis
Sean E.
Steve Smith
Malik Rose
list still goes on!


I see Kobe needed much help with young and the restless!
Can he win a championship with Kevin willis as a backup! Probably not!

Remember, Tim Ducan Helped THEM! feel what its like to win a championshp!!! after so many years of faliure!

Shaq and Kobe failed to do that for Payton and Malone!

Payton did get one in Miami! With SHAq might i add!

So all in all, it took six years for your Team the Lakers to Reload! and win a championship to a unexperienced team (but good, Orlando)

Would of lost to boston(KG was healthy) and Clevland! had they made it!

Well, sure, Duncan carried Robinson's end of the log as well as his own. Robinson was like a girl and needed a strong male influence like Duncan, so, it worked out well there for you fellows.

And I take all the championships. And the last 5 have indeed been gimmes, but, like I've said ad nausem on this Board: one does not choose their competition.

And yer right, Boston would've been a roadblock. That old mainline habit has started to fester in the psyche of our rank & file once again. It's in the background, lurking, searching for a foothold. Bryant ain't no Magic so the chances of it succeeding in finding that foothold is strong. But, KG is no Bird, nor McHale, nor any of the old Boston guard. KG has his own demons, his own doubts, so perhaps this time around we won't have to be tortured as we were in the decades and years leading up to '85 and can once again slay that diseased simian before he attaches himself to the Lakers collective back.

With love.

- Culburn

P.S., you guys really do need to go back-to-back before I can take you up on the dais with us and the Celtics. I ain't ESPN and I ain't grantin' ya a by-your-leave.

[antgomez2009]

Well, sure, Duncan carried Robinson's end of the log as well as his own. Robinson was like a girl and needed a strong male influence like Duncan, so, it worked out well there for you fellows.

And I take all the championships. And the last 5 have indeed been gimmes, but, like I've said ad nausem on this Board: one does not choose their competition.

And yer right, Boston would've been a roadblock. That old mainline habit has started to fester in the psyche of our rank & file once again. It's in the background, lurking, searching for a foothold. Bryant ain't no Magic so the chances of it succeeding in finding that foothold is strong. But, KG is no Bird, nor McHale, nor any of the old Boston guard. KG has his own demons, his own doubts, so perhaps this time around we won't have to be tortured as we were in the decades and years leading up to '85 and can once again slay that diseased simian before he attaches himself to the Lakers collective back.

With love.

- Culburn

P.S., you guys really do need to go back-to-back before I can take you up on the dais with us and the Celtics. I ain't ESPN and I ain't grantin' ya a by-your-leave.







True True, But in a generation of basketball that just completely Switched after the 2003 year Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant, Howard) its hard to win back to backs!

and the Lakers will see if that is true or not in this upcoming year!
I always respected the Lakers, as a Franchise and what they have done!

But the Spurs use bits and bits to build and build! LA compared to San Antonio as a city is like comparing Dollar bills To some spare change, The Market is not big at all! and Luring in a big time name is tough So they use their minds and do trades and look for potential to grow! Thats why i love my Spurs! and will go down with them with the Worst of times! but will rise when its time!!!

Sincerely,
--From your # 1 respected Fan!

:toast

[sandman]

Well, frankly, gomez, you fellows have never really been bonafide. The first one was a strike one (I ain't begrudgin') then the other three were scattered over the landscape in sequence like you were afraid of success.

I don't wish to hurt yer feelings, son, especially of a Friday morning, but, you guys are a little puny in our shadow.

# of Titles in last 10 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 20 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 30 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 9

Not sure where that shadow is, considering that you have to go back 30 years to create a level of separation.

Considering that it took 6 years to win 3 titles in the early part of the 80's (Spurs won 3 titles in 5 years this decade), the '87-'88 and '00-'02 repeats are the only time that the Los Angeles Lakers have ever successfully defended any of their Titles.

Hell, before Showtime started in 1980, the Lakers organization went over 25 years with only one Title. Then over 10 years between Showtime and the 3peat. Then 6 years before this last one.

Your "scattered all over the landscape" comment seems rather hypocritical.

Not diminishing the 'scoreboard' aspect of the Lakers having 5 more Titles than the Spurs during the same time both teams have been in the NBA. Just showing that this 'shadow' you speak of is not looming as large as you think it is.

[Gino]

Id say Odom's choice is the X-Factor for this entire season. If he stays, I think the only team that has a real shot is Boston.

And if he was going to bolt for Miami, he would have done it by now.

[sandman]

P.S., you guys really do need to go back-to-back before I can take you up on the dais with us and the Celtics. I ain't ESPN and I ain't grantin' ya a by-your-leave.

Number of times the Los Angeles Lakers have successfully defended their Title: 3 out of 10

Number of times the Boston Celtics have successfully defended their Title outside of the 8 straight Titles ending in 1966: 1 out of 8

[Culburn369]

# of Titles in last 10 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 20 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 30 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 9

Not sure where that shadow is, considering that you have to go back 30 years to create a level of separation.

Considering that it took 6 years to win 3 titles in the early part of the 80's (Spurs won 3 titles in 5 years this decade), the '87-'88 and '00-'02 repeats are the only time that the Los Angeles Lakers have ever successfully defended any of their Titles.

Hell, before Showtime started in 1980, the Lakers organization went over 25 years with only one Title. Then over 10 years between Showtime and the 3peat. Then 6 years before this last one.

Your "scattered all over the landscape" comment seems rather hypocritical.

Not diminishing the 'scoreboard' aspect of the Lakers having 5 more Titles than the Spurs during the same time both teams have been in the NBA. Just showing that this 'shadow' you speak of is not looming as large as you think it is.

You never went back-to-back and that is your bug-a-boo + the strike one which some people (primarily Suns fandom) have applied a Taint to. I don't aspire to that Taint, but, the Taint has been lodged nonetheless, ipso facto, Culburn (as Site Ramrod) must cite it.

We have went back-to-back, and we trio'ed. We have the two premium rings '85 & '87. You have the '05 premium one, but, that is even a bit soiled because you:

a. built that room for the vanquished Pistons to go into.
b. the vanquished Pistons went into it.

Perhaps I was a smidge overzealous on the size of the shadow. I'll take it down a size or two, upon reflection, but, as a charter shadow it much stand fast in the ranks.

Go back-to-back and Cubby (as Site Ramrod) will reconsider your petition for relief.

Signed,

- Culburn (Site Ramrod)

[sandman]

You never went back-to-back and that is your bug-a-boo + the strike one which some people (primarily Suns fandom) have applied a Taint to. I don't aspire to that Taint, but, the Taint has been lodged nonetheless, ipso facto, Culburn (as Site Ramrod) must cite it.

We have went back-to-back, and we trio'ed. We have the two premium rings '85 & '87. You have the '05 premium one, but, that is even a bit soiled because you:

a. built that room for the vanquished Pistons to go into.
b. the vanquished Pistons went into it.

Perhaps I was a smidge overzealous on the size of the shadow. I'll take it down a size or two, upon reflection, but, as a charter shadow it much stand fast in the ranks.

Go back-to-back and Cubby (as Site Ramrod) will reconsider your petition for relief.

Signed,

- Culburn (Site Ramrod)

You place yourself on level with Rocket fan with all the back-to-back validation smack.

Considering that the two franchises with the most Titles in NBA history have only done it 4 times in the last 40 years, I would say the back-to-back is not the best litmus test for greatness.

The Bulls successfully defended 4 times all by themselves, so they have scoreboard over both the Lakers and Celtics.

[Culburn369]

Number of times the Los Angeles Lakers have successfully defended their Title: 3 out of 10

Number of times the Boston Celtics have successfully defended their Title outside of the 8 straight Titles ending in 1966: 1 out of 8

And the attendant Big Sombrero for the Spurs in defending their Title.

[Spursfan092120]

Odumb makes you stacked? Wow....

[Culburn369]

I would say the back-to-back is not the best litmus test for greatness.

That's only because yer bereft of personal knowledge. Yer innately ignorant.

[IronMexican]

You guys factor in shit from the 60's till the 2009 like it matters. All that matters is 2009-2010. If the Lakers re-up Odom, I feel they are the favorites and most talented team.

[sandman]

In the last 40 years, there have been a total of only 9 successful Title defenses.

So here is the debate: Is the fact that is occurs less than 25% of the time an indication that the teams who are able to accomplish it are superior to others who cannot (see: Houston Rockets), or that the parity of the league in the modern era simply won't allow it to happen consistently (see: Lakers/Celtics in the 80's).

[sandman]

That's only because yer bereft of personal knowledge. Yer innately ignorant.

Ah, so I can place you on par with Rocket Fan who believes that because his team went back-to-back for the only two years his team was relevant in the league, they are one of the greatest champions the league has ever known.

Again, I am not saying that repeating is not a great accomplishment, but even your vaunted Showtime Lakers could only do it once.

[Culburn369]

Ah, so I can place you on par with Rocket Fan who believes that because his team went back-to-back for the only two years his team was relevant in the league, they are one of the greatest champions the league has ever known.

Again, I am not saying that repeating is not a great accomplishment, but even your vaunted Showtime Lakers could only do it once.

Sure, that Rockets team was one of the "greatest champions the league has ever known." Indeed.

And we were fortunate to do it once. And honestly, we only did it once then because Thomas sprained his ankle. But, the front side was a Prime Ring so one can count that duo after a fashion. But, speaking of it (the Thomas ankle) out loud like this does take a bit of the shine off it. Though, Media had no problem shinin' the Piston duo in the backwash of Magic & Scott's blown hammies. But, that is their shame, not mine.

[sandman]

Sure, that Rockets team was one of the "greatest champions the league has ever known." Indeed.

And we were fortunate to do it once. And honestly, we only did it once then because Thomas sprained his ankle. But, the front side was a Prime Ring so one can count that duo after a fashion. But, speaking of it (the Thomas ankle) out loud like this does take a bit of the shine off it. Though, Media had no problem shinin' the Piston duo in the backwash of Magic & Scott's blown hammies. But, that is their shame, not mine.

I am an analyst by trade, so I tend to look deeply into the numbers.

No effort was intended on my part to denigrate Titles won by any team.

I'm just not a supporter of the argument that only back-to-back = greatness, or that Titles won when white boys in short shorts ruled the league should be used in scoreboard debates.

I think that both Laker Fan and Spurs Fan have an argument that based on the relative last 10 years, their teams have been the best in the league.

[Culburn369]

I am an analyst by trade, so I tend to look deeply into the numbers.

No effort was intended on my part to denigrate Titles won by any team.

I'm just not a supporter of the argument that only back-to-back = greatness, or that Titles won when white boys in short shorts ruled the league should be used in scoreboard debates.

I think that both Laker Fan and Spurs Fan have an argument that based on the relative last 10 years, their teams have been the best in the league.

Then look deeply into those numbers in '95 when Houston left Texas down 3-1 headed for Phoenix. That year was the back end of their back-to-back and they never blinked nor wavered. They just went on to the end.

Your Spurs have not accomplished the duo, but, they have indeed been a prime entity with the Lakers the past 10 years. No argument there. You struck a direct hit with Manu and you've rode him as he should have been rode---to an absolute T. That is a thing of beauty to behold no matter a person's allegiance. A prime Manu? I'd trade any prime commodity on my Lakers save Bryant for him. Manu is that accomplished. He understands the American game and possesses a mental state that is extraordinary for a foreign born player. He is a winner.

[Culburn369]

Hollinger is covering his ass---Odom must be coming home to Pappy.

Updated: July 24, 2009, 1:05 PM ET
Would Boozer and Odom help Heat?

Despite having no cap space, pushing up against the luxury tax and seemingly wanting to save most of their dough for next summer's free-agent run, the Miami Heat (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mia), against all odds, have become one of the offseason's most interesting teams.


Two players in particular have been linked to the Heat: Utah's Carlos Boozer (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1703) and the Lakers' Lamar Odom (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=617). It's possible the Heat could add both of them, if they can use their full midlevel exception to get Odom and then trade some of their expiring contracts for Boozer.
It's also possible they could get neither of them, but what's the fun in that? This is the offseason. Let's dare to dream.
The question then becomes how much better Boozer and/or Odom would make the Heat.
Our initial instinct is to think getting one or both would help quite a bit. The Heat are basically just Dwyane Wade (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1987) and a bunch of filler, right? Adding another star would theoretically move them several notches up the ladder. Adding two? That could put them in the East's upper crust.
Subject those assumptions to some deeper scrutiny, however, and the conclusion is a little different.
An incoming player affects a team by replacing another player. In Miami's case, the two weakest starting positions this past season were small forward and point guard. So, upgrades at those two positions would generate the greatest impact, because the Heat would be replacing weak players with strong ones.
Conversely, upgrading the frontcourt wouldn't help as much, because the Heat already were pretty decent there. And they project to be a lot better this coming season, at power forward in particular.
This past season, as a rookie, Michael Beasley (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3418) averaged 22.4 points per 40 minutes. He played only 24 minutes a game, which limited his per-game averages, but he put up a solid 17.28 player efficiency rating in his first pro season.
That's exactly the same PER Boozer recorded. And since neither of these guys will be on the court for his defense, measuring their statistical impact is an appropriate way to compare them.
When we do that using this past season's numbers, we find that upgrading from Beasley to Boozer has no impact whatsoever. None. Zero. One might argue that Boozer likely would play better this coming season given his previous stats; I would answer that Beasley, who will start the season at just 20 years old, is highly likely to improve on his Year 1 numbers. Additionally, he's far more likely than Boozer to participate in most or all of the 82-game schedule.
As for Odom, he probably could make a bigger impact on D than Beasley, but his 16.60 PER in 2008-09 was worse than Beasley's, and since he turns 30 later this year, and has been between 16.20 and 17.31 each of the past five seasons, he doesn't figure to improve any in 2009-10.
So we reach the same conclusion: Importing Odom doesn't project to be an upgrade on Beasley. Importing either Boozer or Odom might help the depth situation, but it wouldn't improve the starting five, so it's tough for such a move to have more than a minor effect on the Heat's projected win-loss record.
Similarly, if Miami got Boozer and Odom together, there'd be little gained by the second acquisition, unless Odom moved to small forward. Admittedly, there's a glaring hole at the position, but Odom would lose much of his effectiveness by moving out to the 3 -- at this point in his career, with the way the league has gone and with his shaky long-range shooting, he basically is a pure 4.
Finally, one has to remember that trading for Boozer wouldn't be free. We don't know exactly what the Heat would give up, but it would be something, and it might weaken them enough at the other positions that it would end up being of no benefit at all. For one example, this trade I concocted (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nppbop) gets them Boozer yet makes them a game worse, based on the model I developed.
Despite all this, there is one way the Heat could add Boozer and Odom, and still improve substantially. That would be if they traded Beasley, too. If Miami could parlay its young forward into an upgrade on the perimeter that provided Wade some quality help, that would change the picture for Miami in a much larger way.
For another example, I created this trade (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m7zul3) that's exactly like the first one, except in addition to the Boozer deal, it sends Beasley to Boston for Rajon Rondo (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3026). This is a completely hypothetical example. (Let me emphasize: This is a fictional trade concocted to demonstrate a concept.) This shows how much greater the impact would be if the Heat were to add a quality player at point guard instead of at power forward -- in this example, such a trade added seven wins to the Heat's bottom line.
In other words, a move for Boozer and Odom could help the Heat, but not in isolation. Adding a power forward would be redundant with the talent that already exists -- talent that, ironically, represents Miami's best chance to get better with the current roster.
So if the Heat aren't willing to trade Beasley or can't trade him to get back a high-quality player on the perimeter, it seems futile for them to expect a big boost from Odom and/or Boozer. Acquiring one or even both of them would change the Heat's outlook much less than one might think.
John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=7936).

[rjv]

this is a old and tired story. just sign already you gummy bear eating diva and lets get the season going.

[carrao45]

Who gives a shit if they resign him? Manu > Odom. Tim and Tony > Gasol and Kobe.

If you think Tim and Tony>Gasol and Kobe, then you are stupid.

Duncan is at the moment better than Gasol, but not by a lot. Kobe is a lot better than TP. KB24&Gasol>TD21&TP9

[carrao45]

So Since the Lakers Won a championship after like a six year absence, the Lakers fans feel that have the edge over the Spurs in all categories! No excuse for the Lakers for a 6 year absence, no excuse for the SPurs for a Injury plagued season! Kobe with 4, Tim with 4.....

Both different players, but Tim owns the PF spot, Kobe still has to beat out Mj, which i doubt!

Aside from all this BS from both the Laker fans and yes my Spurs Fans, this UPCOMING Season and Playoffs will be "IMO" the best ever!

If the Lakers feel that the Trevor Ariza loss will not effect them, they are crazy! Without his steal against Denver, that Series turns in favor to Denver, Artest cant cut the defensive lanes like Trevor did! Ariza in my mind was their biggest X-factor, Young, fast, pretty dam good defensive player and determined!

The Lakers stayed the same, even if they sign Odom! Adam Morrison is your Trevor Ariza this year...lol...G.T.F.O.H.

As for the Spurs, they only got better!!!

Now i feel they have the players to compete at a high level!

Starting 5

Derek Fisher <<<Tony Parker

Kobe >>>>Roger Mason

R. Artest ==== Richard J

Tim Duncan >>>>Gasol

Bynum === Antonio. M (both 10 and 10 guys)


Bench + 1 for the Spurs

Lakers Bench =

Lamar Odom (pending) (good all around player, Match up problems because his size)
Sasaha whotheHeck (good 3pt shooter, poor mans bruce bowen D--shoot fly dont bother me)
Shanon B. (good reserve)
Adam Morrison (Best cheerleader)
J. Farmar (good pg, not consistent)
Luke Walton (getting better every year, still inconsistent)
Spurs
Manu G. (Dynamic Player, 6th player of the year)
Dejuan B. (awsome rebounding, Offensive Reb. + 1)
George Hill (good pg, good defensive because of length, inconsistent)
Theo Ratliff (block shots, kinda washed up, but good for 3rd possibly 2nd backup)
Finley (still a vet that can get it done without heavy mins.)
Bonner (starting C last year, not this year, good for spreading the floor!)
Malik Hairston (up and coming D-league player! can run the floor and hit shots! still needs a chance to prove himself)

No, you forget that the Lakers were aready winning in both of the games when Trevor made those steals. So Chances are high that they would have won them anyway.

Trevor did make some great plays though


And Mcdyess is not a 10/10 guy. Bynum is better, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't seen a healthy Bynum play.

And counting Blair and seying he will be a +1 (whatever that is) is ludicrous because he has never even played a game in the NBA

[Mr. Body]

Hollinger is covering his ass---Odom must be coming home to Pappy.

Updated: July 24, 2009, 1:05 PM ET
Would Boozer and Odom help Heat?

Despite having no cap space, pushing up against the luxury tax and seemingly wanting to save most of their dough for next summer's free-agent run, the Miami Heat (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=mia), against all odds, have become one of the offseason's most interesting teams.


Two players in particular have been linked to the Heat: Utah's Carlos Boozer (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1703) and the Lakers' Lamar Odom (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=617). It's possible the Heat could add both of them, if they can use their full midlevel exception to get Odom and then trade some of their expiring contracts for Boozer.
It's also possible they could get neither of them, but what's the fun in that? This is the offseason. Let's dare to dream.
The question then becomes how much better Boozer and/or Odom would make the Heat.
Our initial instinct is to think getting one or both would help quite a bit. The Heat are basically just Dwyane Wade (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1987) and a bunch of filler, right? Adding another star would theoretically move them several notches up the ladder. Adding two? That could put them in the East's upper crust.
Subject those assumptions to some deeper scrutiny, however, and the conclusion is a little different.
An incoming player affects a team by replacing another player. In Miami's case, the two weakest starting positions this past season were small forward and point guard. So, upgrades at those two positions would generate the greatest impact, because the Heat would be replacing weak players with strong ones.
Conversely, upgrading the frontcourt wouldn't help as much, because the Heat already were pretty decent there. And they project to be a lot better this coming season, at power forward in particular.
This past season, as a rookie, Michael Beasley (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3418) averaged 22.4 points per 40 minutes. He played only 24 minutes a game, which limited his per-game averages, but he put up a solid 17.28 player efficiency rating in his first pro season.
That's exactly the same PER Boozer recorded. And since neither of these guys will be on the court for his defense, measuring their statistical impact is an appropriate way to compare them.
When we do that using this past season's numbers, we find that upgrading from Beasley to Boozer has no impact whatsoever. None. Zero. One might argue that Boozer likely would play better this coming season given his previous stats; I would answer that Beasley, who will start the season at just 20 years old, is highly likely to improve on his Year 1 numbers. Additionally, he's far more likely than Boozer to participate in most or all of the 82-game schedule.
As for Odom, he probably could make a bigger impact on D than Beasley, but his 16.60 PER in 2008-09 was worse than Beasley's, and since he turns 30 later this year, and has been between 16.20 and 17.31 each of the past five seasons, he doesn't figure to improve any in 2009-10.
So we reach the same conclusion: Importing Odom doesn't project to be an upgrade on Beasley. Importing either Boozer or Odom might help the depth situation, but it wouldn't improve the starting five, so it's tough for such a move to have more than a minor effect on the Heat's projected win-loss record.
Similarly, if Miami got Boozer and Odom together, there'd be little gained by the second acquisition, unless Odom moved to small forward. Admittedly, there's a glaring hole at the position, but Odom would lose much of his effectiveness by moving out to the 3 -- at this point in his career, with the way the league has gone and with his shaky long-range shooting, he basically is a pure 4.
Finally, one has to remember that trading for Boozer wouldn't be free. We don't know exactly what the Heat would give up, but it would be something, and it might weaken them enough at the other positions that it would end up being of no benefit at all. For one example, this trade I concocted (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nppbop) gets them Boozer yet makes them a game worse, based on the model I developed.
Despite all this, there is one way the Heat could add Boozer and Odom, and still improve substantially. That would be if they traded Beasley, too. If Miami could parlay its young forward into an upgrade on the perimeter that provided Wade some quality help, that would change the picture for Miami in a much larger way.
For another example, I created this trade (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m7zul3) that's exactly like the first one, except in addition to the Boozer deal, it sends Beasley to Boston for Rajon Rondo (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3026). This is a completely hypothetical example. (Let me emphasize: This is a fictional trade concocted to demonstrate a concept.) This shows how much greater the impact would be if the Heat were to add a quality player at point guard instead of at power forward -- in this example, such a trade added seven wins to the Heat's bottom line.
In other words, a move for Boozer and Odom could help the Heat, but not in isolation. Adding a power forward would be redundant with the talent that already exists -- talent that, ironically, represents Miami's best chance to get better with the current roster.
So if the Heat aren't willing to trade Beasley or can't trade him to get back a high-quality player on the perimeter, it seems futile for them to expect a big boost from Odom and/or Boozer. Acquiring one or even both of them would change the Heat's outlook much less than one might think.
John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=7936).

Nice formatting, bro.

[carrao45]

Puny in whos shadow, Kobe's! or The Lakers as a Fanchise! Cmon hollyWood!!!, we all know that The Lakers them selves are a Shadow of Kobe Bryant!

Oh and i know you'll take those 3 titles with Shaq at the Helm and kobe as a Sidekick!

Tim Duncan has brought Titles to the best of them! that Deserved it and retired soon after! so that makes the team, looking for new guys after there championship run, Hence taking them a year to get into things!

David Robinson
Avery Johnson
Danny Ferry
Kevin Willis
Sean E.
Steve Smith
Malik Rose
list still goes on!


I see Kobe needed much help with young and the restless!
Could he have won a championship with Kevin willis as a backup! Probably not!

Remember, Tim Ducan Helped THEM! feel what its like to win a championshp!!! after so many years of faliure!

Shaq and Kobe failed to do that for Payton and Malone!

Payton did get one in Miami! With SHAq might i add!

So all in all, it took six years for your Team the Lakers to Reload! and win a championship to a unexperienced team (but good, Orlando)

Would of lost to boston(KG was healthy) and Clevland! had they made it!

Six years to go from lottery to champion is really good.

And LA would have had HCA against Boston, and would have had a MUCH better chance of beating them in 09.

Cleveland would have gotten curbstomped by LA and everyone with a brain knows it. Just watch the Regular Season games. LA was mismatch problems for Cleveland. If the Cavs had made it Lakers would have won in 6

[carrao45]

Na, if you know basketball! its all about Match Ups....

Clevland and Boston (Healthy) are built to take on the Lakers! A sweep, Cmon man!

Get your BB IQ up!

Dude the Lakers are mismatch problems for Cleveland. Get your BB IQ up assface.

[Mr. Body]

Six years to go from lottery to champion is really good.


Try two years.

[carrao45]

True True, But in a generation of basketball that just completely Switched after the 2003 year Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant, Howard) its hard to win back to backs!

and the Lakers will see if that is true or not in this upcoming year!
I always respected the Lakers, as a Franchise and what they have done!

But the Spurs use bits and bits to build and build! LA compared to San Antonio as a city is like comparing Dollar bills To some spare change, The Market is not big at all! and Luring in a big time name is tough So they use their minds and do trades and look for potential to grow! Thats why i love my Spurs! and will go down with them with the Worst of times! but will rise when its time!!!

Sincerely,
--From your # 1 respected Fan!

:toast

It's always been hard to win Back-to-Backs! And LeBon and Melo havent had good teams till now.

The Spurs have failed to make the Finals 2 straight seasons since Duncan came, Don't blame that on Melo LeBron and Co.

[carrao45]

# of Titles in last 10 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 20 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 4

# of Titles in last 30 years:

Spurs - 4
Lakers - 9

Not sure where that shadow is, considering that you have to go back 30 years to create a level of separation.

Considering that it took 6 years to win 3 titles in the early part of the 80's (Spurs won 3 titles in 5 years this decade), the '87-'88 and '00-'02 repeats are the only time that the Los Angeles Lakers have ever successfully defended any of their Titles.

Hell, before Showtime started in 1980, the Lakers organization went over 25 years with only one Title. Then over 10 years between Showtime and the 3peat. Then 6 years before this last one.

Your "scattered all over the landscape" comment seems rather hypocritical.

Not diminishing the 'scoreboard' aspect of the Lakers having 5 more Titles than the Spurs during the same time both teams have been in the NBA. Just showing that this 'shadow' you speak of is not looming as large as you think it is.

Don't talk about LA failing to repeat. SA has never even gotten to the finals the season after a title.


And the Lakers have been contenders for titles in every decade since the NBA started

[Mr. Body]

Don't talk about LA failing to repeat. SA has never even gotten to the finals the season after a title.


I'd take the Spurs' spotty post-Championship records over the disasters of Detroit smacking LA around like little bitches in '04 and Boston smacking LA around like little bitches in '08.

For my money those are two of the worst finals performances of the modern era. Just laugh-out-loud inept. (I expect them to return to form.)

The sad thing about our knob-gobbling fame-obsessed media-driven society is these massive failures of supposedly great teams gets brushed under the carpet in favor of the usual lousy hagiographies. Point in fact: the New York Yankees executed the most miserable championship series collapse, losing four games in a row after leading 3-0 a few years ago against Boston, yet you never hear about it.

Same with LA. They got their asses smoked.

[Allanon]

Starting 5

Derek Fisher <<<Tony Parker

Kobe >>>>Roger Mason

R. Artest ==== Richard J

Tim Duncan >>>>Gasol

Bynum === Antonio. M (both 10 and 10 guys)

The Kobe >>>> Mason and Dunca >>>> Gasol comparison is off. I think the gap between Duncan/Gasol is much smaller than between Kobe and Mason.

Bynum put up 14 points last year. If he keeps improving at his pace, he should be at 16 points and 10 rebounds this year while being Top10 in Blocks. And that's a conservative improvement.

People are already saying that Bynum is the 3rd best Center in the NBA with Yao out. If Shaq shows more signs of aging while Bynum keeps on improving, he's gonna be #2 Center next year.

Bynum >>> McDyess

[Dunc n Dave]

The Kobe >>>> Mason and Dunca >>>> Gasol comparison is off. I think the gap between Duncan/Gasol is much smaller than between Kobe and Mason.

Bynum put up 14 points last year. If he keeps improving at his pace, he should be at 16 points and 10 rebounds this year while being Top10 in Blocks. And that's a conservative improvement.

People are already saying that Bynum is the 3rd best Center in the NBA with Yao out. If Shaq shows more signs of aging while Bynum keeps on improving, he's gonna be #2 Center next year.

Bynum >>> McDyess

Not even close. Bynum>>>>McDyess

And on Offense Jefferson>>>>Artest
but DEFENSIVELY Artest>>>>Jefferson

Not really fair to compare Kobe and Mason though, since we all know Manu will get the majority of the minutes in the playoffs.

Still, Kobe>Manu, can't deny that.

Healthiest team win the playoff series. Manu and Bynum are the health concerns for each team. Those guys will be the difference makers, if healthy.

[antgomez2009]

The Kobe >>>> Mason and Dunca >>>> Gasol comparison is off. I think the gap between Duncan/Gasol is much smaller than between Kobe and Mason.

Bynum put up 14 points last year. If he keeps improving at his pace, he should be at 16 points and 10 rebounds this year while being Top10 in Blocks. And that's a conservative improvement.

People are already saying that Bynum is the 3rd best Center in the NBA with Yao out. If Shaq shows more signs of aging while Bynum keeps on improving, he's gonna be #2 Center next year.

Bynum >>> McDyess


Well the last time i checked!!!

McDyess owned the laker squad while playing with a Poor Detriots team!!!

So, that 16 and 10 you say he might be able to get might be the other way around when they play the spurs......McDyess 16 and 10.....Bynum 10 and 10.....+6 :lol...check it out



http://www.nba.com/games/20090326/LALDET/boxscore.html

Granted Bynum was hurt!!!...so im guessing he went against Gasol!!!

and still did better!!!!

All in all its still mutual between both of them, and :wgaf: "proclaimed to be the Number 3 center" There are only like 6 good centers in the league anyways!!

Look, dont be in denial!!!! And if your a fan of basketball, you know that the Spurs got tougher this off season, and What better then a matchup between two powerhouse teams like the Spurs and Lakers!!! 2 of the most dominating teams of this Era!!!...Well i dont know about you, but im pretty dam Excited!!...

:flag:

[tmtcsc]

...and someday you will wake up next to a piece of ass like in your avatar. It's nice to dream isn't it? :lmao

It isn't a dream. You won it all and deserve props for it. I just know that a healthy Spurs team can beat a healthy Lakers team.

Your Lakers squad is not untouchable. If you have to rely on Lamar Odom and Artest to win, then your days of being on top are coming to an end.

[DPG21920]

WTF Odom. Just tuck tail and sign with the Lakers already for less guaranteed money than they first offered you.

[Tradition]

Seriously fuck Lamar Odom for taking this god damn long to make a decision. That son of a bitch is acting like he is some fucking superstar. Fuck him. You fucking piece of shit just resign already. JUST RESIGN ALREADY YOU FUCK!

Fuck you odom for making this offseason anything but enjoyable. I fucking hate you for that you son of a bitch. God im sick of this shit already.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Seriously fuck Lamar Odom for taking this god damn long to make a decision. That son of a bitch is acting like he is some fucking superstar. Fuck him. You fucking piece of shit just resign already. JUST RESIGN ALREADY YOU FUCK!

Fuck you odom for making this offseason anything but enjoyable. I fucking hate you for that you son of a bitch. God im sick of this shit already.

So tell us how you really feel. :toast

[tmtcsc]

Lamar is a moron if he doesn't sign back with the Lakers. Less money and less likely to win in Miami. Lakers would lose some chemistry factor but that's it. They'd be crazy to over pay for him.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Lamar is a moron if he doesn't sign back with the Lakers. Less money and less likely to win in Miami. Lakers would lose some chemistry factor but that's it. They'd be crazy to over pay for him.

It feels strange to quote myself, but I posted this in another thread:


The "taking less money" argument has been thrown around a lot, but I have yet to see any proof to this. The offer that the Lakers had on the table was a 4yr/$36M deal with the 4th year being a team option with a $3M buyout. That means that Odom is only truly guaranteed to make $30M over three years with the Lakers. Now it is speculated that Buss will offer less than that. All of the other offers that have been tossed around are only speculation, and many with knowledge refute most of them.

He would be guaranteed to make around $35M over five years with the Heat. He would also be able to start and perhaps make even more money by displaying his talent, since years 3, 4, or 5 of his Heat deal would likely have a player option. When you consider the money that he would save on cost of living and state income tax deference, I don't find that it is overwhelmingly evident that he would be sacrificing much money.

[KSeal]

Not really. Duncan is way better than Gasol. That shit is not even close. lol

I lol'd as well after reading what you wrote.