Correlation between pick ups

[Rummpd]

Barry hated around here for months now lots of love that granted he has earned.

Nazr getting a beating on here so bad = you would think this was a Philly forum, IMO he is a relative dissapointment but give him the same frigging chance before reaming this guy over and over again. Some guys just take a little while to get systems.

The truth is that like Barry he has performed in past, he was a starting center with darn good numbers and for all we know could still be somewhat injured. One cannot deny that early in his Spur time he showed flashes and may just be trying to hard at the present. He also is blocking shots which pundits said he could not do, he does that he brings a lot.

Mark it down he will rise again, look at this guy's past, he worked his tail off at Kentucky to lose weight etc. and make himself into an athlete, that work ethic does not go away.

[MI21]

What's the Correlation?

[whottt]

I think all of us like Nazr the person...the anger is at the Spurs for doing this trade...Nazr is just the face that is put on it....

We traded a very servicable back up for a project in the middle of the greatest season in Spurs history...and we did it for financial reasons, as Pop admitted...I think there is ample reason to be pissed about this trade....

And Nazr is barely a shotblocker...he's not ever going to be a shotblocker like Rasho...and it wasn't just pundits on this board that said that...it was Nazr himself.


And finally...I don't think you reazlize how poorly the team performs when Nazr is on the court, as opposed to any other player on our team...

Yes you can come up with endless excuses and justification...but what you are you really accomplishing? Are you increasing our chances of winning a title by doing so?

Nazr is a nice and likeable guy...but he's not Malik Rose...he doesn't have his fire...he doesn't have his determination...and when you are talking about two backups those things are much more important than boards and ppg...

And BTW, Nazr with Duncan out, is putting up worse numbers than Malik was here...that trad hurt us and the fans are pissed...and Malik would have been getting PT with Duncan out.

IF Horry wasn't stepping up huge right now and like no other time in his Spurs career...this trade would be absolutely disastrous....Horry is saving the Spurs ass right now...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think all of us like Nazr the person...the anger is at the Spurs for doing this trade...Nazr is just the face that is put on it....

We traded a very servicable back up for a project in the middle of the greatest season in Spurs history...and we did it for financial reasons, as Pop admitted...I think there is ample reason to be pissed about this trade....

And Nazr is barely a shotblocker...he's not ever going to be a shotblocker like Rasho...and it wasn't just pundits on this board that said that...it was Nazr himself.


And finally...I don't think you reazlize how poorly the team performs when Nazr is on the court, as opposed to any other player on our team...

Yes you can come up with endless excuses and justification...but what you are you really accomplishing? Are you increasing our chances of winning a title by doing so?

Nazr is a nice and likeable guy...but he's not Malik Rose...he doesn't have his fire...he doesn't have his determination...and when you are talking about two backups those things are much more important than boards and ppg...

And BTW, Nazr with Duncan out, is putting up worse numbers than Malik was here...that trad hurt us and the fans are pissed...and Malik would have been getting PT with Duncan out.

IF Horry wasn't stepping up huge right now and like no other time in his Spurs career...this trade would be absolutely disastrous....Horry is saving the Spurs ass right now...
So basically you're saying that you don't like Nazr because they traded Malik for him. Rummpd stressed about giving the guy some time to adjust, I mean, come on, Barry took all season to adjust, and now look at him, his burning it up out there. All I'm saying is you have to get over the Malik/Nazr trade and focus on what you have at hand. Nazr could turn out to be a decent adquisition IF you give him time. A lot of people loved Malik Whottt, but lets face it, he wasn't the best player around; furthermore, IMO he contributed more with his charisma and personality than did with his playing (this season ofcourse) All I'm saying is don't just hate Nazr because he came at the end of a trade you didn't like, give him a chance.

[Rummpd]

Agreed and I liked Malik as much as anybody and if fact met him recently on a visit back to Drexel where I am a professor.

Again, just give Nazr some time. Malik and the Knicks started out as a house on fire but then are mailing it in (not Malik surely but the team).

I still believe this trade utimetely helps Spurs and in the short run at least has inspired both Rasho and Marks to play better. Nazr will be fine, maybe he is just the opposite of Rasho and will play better with Duncan than without.

Would that be so bad?

[CosmicCowboy]

I was one of those that liked Malik a lot but thought it was a good basketball trade for Nazr Mohammed based on what I had seen/heard/read. I too have been dissappointed in how slowly he has adapted to this team...I sat really close to the floor last night and watched Nazr almost exclusively when he was in the game trying to find an upside and had a really hard time finding ANY bright spots...hopefully it was just a bad night but he was truly awful and looked totally lost on the floor...on offense he just stood around a lot at the top of the key and rarely moved without the ball...he wasn't getting offensive rebounding position and boxing out...twice I saw him break off and start back on defense when a spurs shot was still in the air and just surrendered the rebound without even trying for it...Old man Robert Horry was playing with 10 times the energy and intensity of Nazr. I told the guy I was with after the second early break that Pop was gonna yank his ass and put Marks in if Nazr didn't pull his head out of his ass and thats exactly what Pop did...

[Jimcs50]

Rose is so superior to Nazr at playing Spurs bball it is not even close.

If Nazr makes the playoff roster, it will only be because Pop will not want to have people tell him he made a huge mistake in making this assinine trade...and that will probably be the case....which makes Pop even a bigger dumbass than his original dumbass mistake.

Marks is so much better right now for this team it is not even funny.

Admit you were wrong Pop, and put Marks on roster instead of Nazr the bust.

[Rummpd]

I believe both will be on playoff roster potentially, would be sad for Massenburg but with Robinson, Duncan, Marks, etc. hard to make best decision.

Will see if you are singing same song re Nazr in 6 months. Believe it will be changed and he might even be the starter.

[samikeyp]

The Spurs were not going to win the title because of Malik Rose and if the Spurs do not win the title it will not be because Malik is gone. With a healthy Duncan, Parker and Ginobili the Spurs are still the favorites. I didn't like to see Malik go but I get the business side of this. I would have liked to see it happen after the season but it didn't. Personally I blame the Spurs inconsistent play on the lack of Tim Duncan rather than Malik Rose.

[Rummpd]

Lost in last night again = 3 blocks in 11 minutes = is that not valuable?

[exstatic]

But...he's not a shot-blocker. ;)

I think that if Big Dawg decides to come back next year, a full training camp would make both he and Nazr valuable, contributing members of the Spurs.

[Jimcs50]

Massenburgh> Nazr right now. Mass has been there all year, he deserves to be on playoff roster more than Nazr who has shown nothing this year whatsoever.

3 blocks?

That is all you got?

:rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Nazr has more than doubled his per-minute blocking rate as a Spur. 3.54 blocks per 48 minutes as a Spur puts him just behind Duncan, #8 in the league.

Overall, he's jumped up from about #45-50 in blk/48 as a Knick to #31 this season -- right behind Robert Horry.

It will probably be next season before he actually gets the system, but you'd have to be a true hater to spin the blocking negatively.

[Jimcs50]

Block shots are overrated.

Chris Anderson has had 13, countem 13, in the last 2 games for New Orleans and they got blown out.

If that is all he can do, then, he is not worth keeping on the playoff roster.

Have you watched him on the O glass???

He does not even try to get the O rebs at all, he makes a half hearted swipe at the ball and that is all. Rasho is much better at crashing the O boards and everyone always trashes him, so what gives with this love affair with Nazr???

You guys are just trying to not admit that the trade was a horrible move and that is it.

[ChumpDumper]

Ranks #16 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(209.0)
Ranks #12 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(3.0)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.8)

And over half his rebounds as a Spur are offensive.

I'm not saying he isn't lost out there, or that Malik wouldn't be doing better right now.

Just that you're bias is blinding you.

[CosmicCowboy]

I agree with Exstatic that I will give Nazr Mohammed a full training camp with the Spurs before I decide that he is hopeless but as of right now the poor guy just looks lost on the floor.

[Jimcs50]

I agree with Exstatic that I will give Nazr Mohammed a full training camp with the Spurs before I decide that he is hopeless but as of right now the poor guy just looks lost on the floor.


ok, but that is my point.

WTF did we make this trade THIS year????

It hurt us and it might cost us a championship that was a done deal before the trade.

[ChumpDumper]

WTF did we make this trade THIS year????Because Malik's contract was that difficult to move.

[Jimcs50]

Because Malik's contract was that difficult to move.


who gave him the contract?


Hell, I would have kicked in a few thousand to just keep him over that scrub, Nazr.

[ChumpDumper]

who gave him the contract?The Spurs, under the assumption he'd play 25mpg and not get beat out by any and every old fart signed thereafter.
Hell, I would have kicked in a few thousandHow about $20 million. that might have made it worth it.

I'd love to live in a world where money made no difference, but I won't pretend that's reality.

[samikeyp]

horrible? IMO, no. It cleared cap space so it wasn't a total bust. I still wouldn't have pulled the trigger during the season though.

[Kori Ellis]

It didn't clear any cap space. The Spurs were over the cap for the next four or five years before the trade and they still are.

[samikeyp]

It hurt us and it might cost us a championship that was a done deal before the trade.

You don't think the Spurs still have enough talent to win it all?

[samikeyp]

then why trade the contract if it doesn't help financially?

[Kori Ellis]

Nazr sucking is not about his numbers. He could have the exact same numbers and not suck.

Sure, he gets some O boards and he blocks some shots here and there. But he's in the wrong place constantly -- everyone is always waving him to move. He calls for the ball over and over (at least the guards have learned to ignore him) even when they are running set plays that aren't for him. And he is clueless on D. When he first got here, he was doing a great job getting rebounding position -- now he doesn't even do that.

[Kori Ellis]

then why trade the contract if it doesn't help financially?

Oh, it helps financially. It helps Holt with the luxury tax. But don't fool yourself into thinking it gives the Spurs any cap space.

[ChumpDumper]

Technically there is no cap savings, but financially, it allows the Spurs to sign and re-sign other players and stay under the luxury tax threshold.

[timvp]

Technically there is no cap savings, but financially, it allows the Spurs to sign and re-sign other players and stay under the luxury tax threshold.

Only true if they don't re-sign Mohammed.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, I'm not denying he looks lost out there, especially w/o Duncan. 1 1/2 seasons of frustration is the worst case scenario here as opposed to what we already went through with Malik.

Or we could've gotten Yogi Stewart or someone who can't even suit up.

Malik was gone at the firsrt opportunity regardless.

[samikeyp]

Its not a matter of "fooling myself"

I equated cap space with luxury tax. Im not much of a capologist. :)

[ChumpDumper]

Only true if they don't re-sign Mohammed.As he is not Malik, Nazr is one of those "other players."

[timvp]

As he is not Malik, Nazr is one of those "other players."

:huh

What does that mean? The Spurs don't save any money in this trade unless they don't re-sign Mohammed.

Admit that.

[Kori Ellis]

Again, I'm not denying he looks lost out there, especially w/o Duncan. 1 1/2 seasons of frustration is the worst case scenario here as opposed to what we already went through with Malik.

Or we could've gotten Yogi Stewart or someone who can't even suit up.

Malik was gone regardless.


I agree about that. I'm just saying that right now on the court, he sucks. And there's no reason to sugar coat it. Hopefully when Duncan returns, he'll get better. But with what Marks has shown in the past few games, I'm not sure you leave him off the playoff roster in favor of Nazr.

[ChumpDumper]

What does that mean?It means they wanted that money to go to players other than Malik. What part don't you get?
The Spurs don't save any money in this trade unless they don't re-sign Mohammed.

Admit that.I just did -- assuming Nazr's new deal would start at $6.5 million.

[Jimcs50]

Can Nazr do this in playoffs against the Suns, our #1 threat?

When DRob was not playing much at all in rd 1 against Phoenix, Rose came up huge. Here are his numbers when we needed him.

1st playoff series of 03:
Phoenix is opponent
Game pts/rebs

1.13pts 6 rebs
2.11/5
3. 15/7
4.10/14
5.27/13
6.7/7

I can not even think about Nazr doing this if we needed him to.

This is why this trade sucks...we do not have the backup that we had when Rose was needed.

When DRob was hurt or TD was in foul trouble, we could count on Rose to do this for us.

He did not do it all the time and was a DNP-coaches decision a lot of times, but that was betw him and Pop...it was not because he could not play Spurs bball.

[timvp]

I just did -- assuming Nazr's new deal would start at $6.5 million.

Even if the Spurs give him any contract that starts in the $4-5M range, the overall change is pretty much nothing.

Luckily for the Spurs, at this point I don't think teams are going to be fighting over Samaki Walkammed.

[ChumpDumper]

Even if the Spurs give him any contract that starts in the $4-5M range, the overall change is pretty much nothing.

Luckily for the Spurs, at this right I don't think teams are going to be fighting over Samaki Walkammed.You're assuming re-signing him is a lock.

It all depends on Nazr's performance next year and whether Scola comes over and works out as well. It's a fair prediction that keeping Rose would've meant more of the same since he signed the contract which makes less and less financial sense as the contract grows larger.

[MI21]

I am pretty sure that is wrong Jimcs50.

Malik had a 27 point 13 rebound game against Phoenix, game 5 if I remember correctly, helping break the 2-2 tie.

Long live Malik :)

[timvp]

At this point, I wish the Spurs had gotten Yogi Stewart or someone else who's contract is up after this year in return for Rose.

[ChumpDumper]

At this point, I wish the Spurs had gotten Yogi Stewart or someone else who's contract is up after this year in return for Rose.And? It's not like anyone was lining up to take Malik's contract. There was a grand total of one offer this season, and no guarantee it would be there after this season.

[Jimcs50]

I am pretty sure that is wrong Jimcs50.

Malik had a 27 point 13 rebound game against Phoenix, game 5 if I remember correctly, helping break the 2-2 tie.

Long live Malik :)

oops, I accidently repeated game 3 instead of putting his great game up....thanks for correcting me....now my point is even better.

Notice how nobody said anyting about that series.....

all the Rose haters are running for cover now...how utterly predictable.

[timvp]

And? It's not like anyone was lining up to take Malik's contract. There was a grand total of one offer this season, and no guarantee it would be there after this season.


Incorrect. There were other deals offered to the Spurs throughout the season that would have gotten rid of Rose for an expiring contract.

[ChumpDumper]

There's no denying what Malik did for this team, just as there's no denying what Malik didn't do for this team. Ultimately, if we end up with a guy who can consistently back up Duncan and Rasho, be it Nazr, Scola or someone else -- he'll be doing something Malik didn't.

[ChumpDumper]

Incorrect. There were other deals offered to the Spurs throughout the season that would have gotten rid of Rose for an expiring contract.Which ones? I honestly hadn't heard of any. The Yogi business was last season.

[Jimcs50]

Incorrect. There were other deals offered to the Spurs throughout the season that would have gotten rid of Rose for an expiring contract.


timvp, can you tell me why getting rid of that contract was tantamount to the Spurs continuing getting their players signed?

Was is neccessary?

Could the Spurs have been successful with the the status quo?

[timvp]

Which ones? I honestly hadn't heard of any. The Yogi business was last season.

Yogi was this season too. The Celtics had a deal of Yogi and trash (Gugs?) for Rose on the table since the summer.

[ChumpDumper]

Is that it?

[timvp]

timvp, can you tell me why getting rid of that contract was tantamount to the Spurs continuing getting their players signed?

It wasn't. That is a myth.


Was is neccessary?

Not for any monetary reasons.


Could the Spurs have been successful with the the status quo?

Yes, but there was obviously some friction between Pop and Malik. Most likely, Pop thought that Malik was underminning his leadership of the team or something like that.

[ChumpDumper]

It wasn't. That is a myth.Untrue. The Spurs aren't owned by Cablevision. [awaits "Holt is cheap" retort]
Not for any monetary reasons.Give me a break - that's all we've been talking about. Unless you're going to go into some half-baked analysis about exactly how much money the Spurs are making and will make and their debt structrure, etc.
Most likely, Pop thought that Malik was underminning his leadership of the team or something like that.Malik was getting beaten out by old farts every year. You can blame Pop for that I guess, but that's not an argument for paying Malik more to do that same. I said play him or trade him. He was traded.

[T Park]

But he's in the wrong place constantly

maybe cause he doesn't totally know the system.

I watched last night and didn't see anyone "waving' him out of the way.

Once again, Im with Spurm, CC, and Chump before I dump on this guy.


Block shots are overrated?? Uh ok.

[T Park]

Once again, why does Nazr NOT get a fair shake.

Just curious, because when he was acquired we assumed he would play with Duncan a majority of the time.


SOme guys play better WITH Duncan, Some play better WITHOUT.


Rasho, plays better without, Nazr plays better WITH.


When Duncan gets back and this is proven correct, what exactly is wrong.

Is that so horrible??

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't fully understand how Nazr is that bad. I agree, naturally, but I just don't get how.

Maybe he's still nursing his injury? Or he misses new york and is bummed?

But if he somehow gets a firey determination, he can be a good player for the spurs. We've seen his capability as a rebounder, which is the 2nd most important thing he can do besides play defense.

Why does he suck so bad on defense? Why's he in the wrong place all the time? I have no idea, but I don't think any NBA player with a decent functioning brain can stay clueless on defense for long. Either he has no motivation/determination, or he's mentally handicapped. I'm going with the former.

[exstatic]

Mass did a great job last night on Brand. Elton, who actually has some moves, insisted on trying to bull through TMass. Not going to happen, short of being Shaq.

I'd have to leave Nazr off the playoff roster, too, at this point, in favor of Marks. Don't give up on him for next year, though.

[T Park]

Id leave off Massenburg before Mohammed.

Give the guy some time with Duncan BEFORE the playoffs at least.

[Jimcs50]

Mass>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Nazr...and you do not see that, you are dumber than I thought.

[MannyIsGod]

It's not about giving Nazr a fair shake, and it's not about Malik. It's about this team being put in the best position to win a championship. Nazr on this team at this point in time is not nearly as usefull as Malik would have been, and that's a given. Malik may not have contributed exactly what we needed, but the mere fact he would have contributed at all is what seperates him from Nazr.

Look, I know hindsight is 20/20 and I too thought this trade could be good basketball wise at the time of the trade. Nobody knew Duncan was going to go down. That's all fine, but the trade still sucks for this season.

Nazr still has a chance to be a damn good player in this system, but it is not going to be this year. Comparing him to Barry is flawed because one was an off season acquisition and one was a late season one. Barry had time to learn the system, and has ultimately come around. Nazr simply doens't have that luxury this year, and has done nothing to give an indication that he will be able to provide anything in a positive manner before the season is over.

Marks knows the system. Mass knows the system. Both have played well in spots, which is more than you can say for Nazr. At this point, I'd easily rather have both of them on the roster. I think even with minimum improvement Nazr can secure his spot on the post season roster, but as I said before, he has given absolutely no indication that he can even improve a little. In fact, the first thing he needs to stop is his regression, he gets worse each game.

[Jimcs50]

It's not about giving Nazr a fair shake, and it's not about Malik. It's about this team being put in the best position to win a championship. Nazr on this team at this point in time is not nearly as usefull as Malik would have been, and that's a given. Malik may not have contributed exactly what we needed, but the mere fact he would have contributed at all is what seperates him from Nazr.

Look, I know hindsight is 20/20 and I too thought this trade could be good basketball wise at the time of the trade. Nobody knew Duncan was going to go down. That's all fine, but the trade still sucks for this season.

Nazr still has a chance to be a damn good player in this system, but it is not going to be this year. Comparing him to Barry is flawed because one was an off season acquisition and one was a late season one. Barry had time to learn the system, and has ultimately come around. Nazr simply doens't have that luxury this year, and has done nothing to give an indication that he will be able to provide anything in a positive manner before the season is over.

Marks knows the system. Mass knows the system. Both have played well in spots, which is more than you can say for Nazr. At this point, I'd easily rather have both of them on the roster. I think even with minimum improvement Nazr can secure his spot on the post season roster, but as I said before, he has given absolutely no indication that he can even improve a little. In fact, the first thing he needs to stop is his regression, he gets worse each game.


Manny you are a genius...this post was absolutely sublime.

[kskonn]

I pesonally feel we are focussing so much on Nazr and malik that we forgot one important piece to the puzzle. Horry!!!! if he keeps playing like he has been then this is a mute point. I feel he has done a better job backing up TD when he went down this year than Malik ever has. Just to be clear I am not talking about one game here and there I am talking about consistenlty raising his game to help the team. Now if G Rob works out even better.

[Louae]

Nazr could turn out to be a decent adquisition IF you give him time. A lot of people loved Malik Whottt, but lets face it, he wasn't the best player around; furthermore, IMO he contributed more with his charisma and personality than did with his playing (this season ofcourse) All I'm saying is don't just hate Nazr because he came at the end of a trade you didn't like, give him a chance.

Nazr could turn out to be a decent aquisition next year. It's a big IF in my opinion, but it could happen. But you can't tell me Malik Rose wouldn't be helping this team win games while TD's been out. He's proven to do so in the past and I'm positive he'd be doing the same if he wasn't traded. That's what pisses me off. This trade made us weaker for the short term and has hurt our title chances. There's no denying that.

Even though financial reasons were the main reason for the trade, I do believe the spurs were looking to move Malik Rose to also make the team better. But I don't think they were looking to make a move to make the improvement this year. Before Duncan went down, Rose was a luxury to have. Unfortanately, he was an expensive luxury to have. Managment clearly took a risk in trading Rose so late in the season to stay in the black in future seasons. But it was a risk worth taking in their opinion at the time.

If TD doesn't get hurt, Rose would not be missed. But TD did get hurt. And that's where we felt the sting of losing Malik Rose. B/c that's when a Malik Rose becomes an important commodity to have on your roster. If you can't see that, then you're in denial mode.

[kskonn]

Nazr could turn out to be a decent aquisition next year. It's a big IF in my opinion, but it could happen. But you can't tell me Malik Rose wouldn't be helping this team win games while TD's been out. He's proven to do so in the past and I'm positive he'd be doing the same if he wasn't traded. That's what pisses me off. This trade made us weaker for the short term and has hurt our title chances. There's no denying that.

Even though financial reasons were the main reason for the trade, I do believe the spurs were looking to move Malik Rose to also make the team better. But I don't think they were looking to make a move to make the improvement this year. Before Duncan went down, Rose was a luxury to have. Unfortanately, he was an expensive luxury to have. Managment clearly took a risk in trading Rose so late in the season to stay in the black in future seasons. But it was a risk worth taking in their opinion at the time.

If TD doesn't get hurt, Rose would not be missed. But TD did get hurt. And that's where we felt the sting of losing Malik Rose. B/c that's when a Malik Rose becomes an important commodity to have on your roster. If you can't see that, then you're in denial mode.


With Horrys play since Duncan went down I don't think we have missed Malik. How much better than horry do you thnink he would be able to play. He would not be blocking the shots and hitting the threes like horry has. maybe a few more rebounds and a few more turnovers. But honestly I think even if Malik was here he would still see limited minutes because of the game horry has been bringing to the table.

[kskonn]

However i will agree that w/o horry right now we would desperately miss malik.

[Louae]

With Horrys play since Duncan went down I don't think we have missed Malik. How much better than horry do you thnink he would be able to play. He would not be blocking the shots and hitting the threes like horry has. maybe a few more rebounds and a few more turnovers. But honestly I think even if Malik was here he would still see limited minutes because of the game horry has been bringing to the table.

If you think that, then you have lot to learn young padawan. Horry could still be starting and getting minimal minutes (save him for the playoffs) with Malik being the first big man off the bench to relieve Rasho and Horry. That's a whole lot better than what we have now. Right now, Horry is getting more minutes than we'd like to give him at this point and when Horry's out, we are suffering in our pick and roll action with Marks, Mass or Mohammad setting the picks for Tony Parker. Rose would be making teams pay for leaving him out there to shoot open shots.

[slayermin]

I thought Nazr had one year left on his deal at 5mil?

If Glenn contributes to the Spurs winning it all, I am sure you can trade away Nazr's expiring deal to some team that needs a big man. Then I guess see who offers Glenn a contract and offer him a slightly lesser deal to possibly win more championships. He wanted to stay with Milwaukee his entire career. That didn't work out. Maybe he will find that SA is a great place to end his career.

[CosmicCowboy]

Rose would be making teams pay for leaving him out there to shoot open shots.

:lmao

I was conditioned like Pavlovs dog to cringe and yell "nooooo!" at the TV every time Malik squared up to shoot from outside about 8 feet...

[sungo99]

Incorrect. There were other deals offered to the Spurs throughout the season that would have gotten rid of Rose for an expiring contract.
Sorry. Nevermind.

[texasqb2]

I think people here arent looking at the big picture of the Rose trade. This trade was not Rose for Nazr. The two first round picks mean nothing since they are going to be an the end of the round and we dont want anymore guaranteed contracts anyway. Like it or not, Rose was not gonna help us in the playoffs for the games we need him to (Pistons/Heat) as he is too undersized to guard Shaq, Nazr can. Nazr cannot produce on the offensive end unless its put backs, and thats why hes not playing with Duncan out, we need scoring, but playing alongside Duncan against the Heat, I love this deal. Not only that, this trade allows us not to pay Malik Rose 7-8 million dollars and in turn, we are able to bring Scola over guaranteed. Look at the big picture here....

[MannyIsGod]

Texas, did you not read this thread? Or the other ones? All of that's been covered.

Nazr couldn't guard Chris and his weak ass hook in the lane at this point.

Fuck it, I'm going on the record with this one.

Chris with a weak hook >>>> Nazr

[kskonn]

If you think that, then you have lot to learn young padawan. Horry could still be starting and getting minimal minutes (save him for the playoffs) with Malik being the first big man off the bench to relieve Rasho and Horry. That's a whole lot better than what we have now. Right now, Horry is getting more minutes than we'd like to give him at this point and when Horry's out, we are suffering in our pick and roll action with Marks, Mass or Mohammad setting the picks for Tony Parker. Rose would be making teams pay for leaving him out there to shoot open shots.


Like i said there are certain things that Malik does well. And I agree if Malik was here maybe we rest horry. Except that Horry always played in front of Malik, and that was not going to change!! But name one game since duncan has been out that malik would have made a difference. and don't say the new york game. Honestly there are some games that if horry had not been in there we would not have won . What about this scenario, maybe if malik was in the game maybe we would have ended up losing because he might have taken Horrys playing time. And seriously when has Malik consistently made teams Pay by spotting up for wide open jumpers. He has always been streaky. I have never heard an opposing coach say, " guys we have to focus on not letting Malik get open shots, If we do he could kill us".....

[kskonn]

:lmao

I was conditioned like Pavlovs dog to cringe and yell "nooooo!" at the TV every time Malik squared up to shoot from outside about 8 feet...


true true :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[sungo99]

If Malik Rose was an asshole no one would be having this conversation.

The Spurs traded an old, redundant below average PF who makes ~$26 million over the next four years and two first-round picks the Spurs didn't need. They received a young, below average C who will make $5.5 million next year. At that point he will go and the Spurs will have the ~$20 million (or ~$7 million a year) to use with the mid-level exception.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Like i said there are certain things that Malik does well. And I agree if Malik was here maybe we rest horry. Except that Horry always played in front of Malik, and that was not going to change!! But name one game since duncan has been out that malik would have made a difference. and don't say the new york game. Honestly there are some games that if horry had not been in there we would not have won . What about this scenario, maybe if malik was in the game maybe we would have ended up losing because he might have taken Horrys playing time. And seriously when has Malik consistently made teams Pay by spotting up for wide open jumpers. He has always been streaky. I have never heard an opposing coach say, " guys we have to focus on not letting Malik get open shots, If we do he could kill us".....


i actually thought he was as consistent this year with his jumper as he was in 2003. And thats pretty good.

[Kori Ellis]

At that point he will go and the Spurs will have the ~$20 million (or ~$7 million a year) to use with the mid-level exception.

No, they won't. They'll be over the cap and won't have Nazr's $7M to spend. They'll either have to re-sign Nazr (because they'll have his Bird's Rights to do so) and have the mid-level exception, or not sign Nazr and have the mid-level exception. They won't have money available to sign a new player. They'll have $50M in salary commited and only seven players under contract -- that doesn't even include the possible salaries of Devin and Scola.

[kskonn]

i actually thought he was as consistent this year with his jumper as he was in 2003. And thats pretty good.


Oh he was but I don't think that is his strength. i do not think he should be looking for the jumper. That is what got him pops dog house originally, trying to do to much. His stregth is being scrappy, getting boards, easy put backs, getting to loose balls, out hustling the other team. That is what he did really well in the 03 playoffs. That and that sweet ass dunk over mutumbo. That was classic. Pop said it best. He was trying to to more to earn his contract and was not doing what got him the contract.

[timvp]

Untrue. The Spurs aren't owned by Cablevision. [awaits "Holt is cheap" retort]

What aren't you understanding. This saves no money long-term unless the Spurs don't re-sign Nazr or Nazr sucks so much that the Spurs can get him for next to nothing. An average center in this league is getting paid way more than what is left on Rose's contract. So no matter how you slice it, the Spurs either have a good player who they have to pay a lot to keep and thus lose money on the trade, the Spurs will watch Nazr leave in free agency or the Spurs have a sucky player who can be picked up for cheap.

What aren't you understanding? This wasn't an economic move unless they knew Nazr was trash from the get go.

[ChumpDumper]

What aren't you understanding?What aren't you understanding? The Spurs didn't want to pay Malik more and more every year just to get beat out by whatever old fart they signed. If they spend exactly the money on Nazr, it will be because he can play the minutes and role everyone thought Malik would when he signed the contract. What aren't you understanding?

[timvp]

If Nazr is playing at that level, you'd have to pay him a lot more than was due on Rose's contract. And as of right now, him holding down any position on this team is a stretch. Even if Nazr didn't improve at all right now, he'd still command more than Rose was due. NBA centers who can walk and chew gum (*cough*Adonal Foyle*cough*) are more overpaid than any position in all of sport.

Even centers who put up stats on teams that were so bad that Dion freaking Glover averaged double figures.

[Kori Ellis]

If they spend exactly the money on Nazr, it will be because he can play the minutes and role everyone thought Malik would when he signed the contract.

And you believe that will happen? Nazr will play significant minutes and contribute for years to come?

[Useruser666]

It's not about giving Nazr a fair shake, and it's not about Malik. It's about this team being put in the best position to win a championship. Nazr on this team at this point in time is not nearly as usefull as Malik would have been, and that's a given. Malik may not have contributed exactly what we needed, but the mere fact he would have contributed at all is what seperates him from Nazr.

Look, I know hindsight is 20/20 and I too thought this trade could be good basketball wise at the time of the trade. Nobody knew Duncan was going to go down. That's all fine, but the trade still sucks for this season.

Nazr still has a chance to be a damn good player in this system, but it is not going to be this year. Comparing him to Barry is flawed because one was an off season acquisition and one was a late season one. Barry had time to learn the system, and has ultimately come around. Nazr simply doens't have that luxury this year, and has done nothing to give an indication that he will be able to provide anything in a positive manner before the season is over.

Marks knows the system. Mass knows the system. Both have played well in spots, which is more than you can say for Nazr. At this point, I'd easily rather have both of them on the roster. I think even with minimum improvement Nazr can secure his spot on the post season roster, but as I said before, he has given absolutely no indication that he can even improve a little. In fact, the first thing he needs to stop is his regression, he gets worse each game.

I pretty much agree on everything you said. The only point to the Barry comparrison was that people were all over Barry even though he had a long time to get into his grove. It seems everyone is ready to flush Nazr without giving him a reasonable amount of time to get in the flow. I'm not saying it's even possible at this point in the season for that to happen.

I believe it's just a combination of uneasyness over the Malik trade, and people beginning to sweat going into the playoffs with all of the nagging injuies we've been having.

[ChumpDumper]

I have no idea if Nazr will pan out or not.
If Nazr is playing at that level, you'd have to pay him a lot more than was due on Rose's contract.That doesn't make Malik's contract any more attractive, does it?

[sungo99]

No, they won't. They'll be over the cap and won't have Nazr's $7M to spend. They'll either have to re-sign Nazr (because they'll have his Bird's Rights to do so) and have the mid-level exception, or not sign Nazr and have the mid-level exception. They won't have money available to sign a new player. They'll have $50M in salary commited and only seven players under contract -- that doesn't even include the possible salaries of Devin and Scola.

Yes, they will. Did you read what I wrote? I said "the Spurs will have the ~$20 million (or ~$7 million a year) to use with the mid-level exception." Maybe you misinterpretted that "with" as "and." That's not what I meant. The salary intended for Rose can now go to a player that will have to be signed with the MLE. Yes, if they resign Nazr they won't have that money. But I seriously doubt they resign him.

[Kori Ellis]

I have no idea if Nazr will pan out or not.

I know you don't know. But take a guess. Based on what you've seen of him in Philly, Atlanta, NY, and here. I know you watch a lot of basketball. A year from now, do you think you'll be interested in signing him to a contract starting at the least $7M/year?

I'm just curious as to your opinion. You are one of the brightest basketball minds in here.

[timvp]

I have no idea if Nazr will pan out or not. That doesn't make Malik's contract any more attractive, does it?

It should. If Nazr plays like the Baby Hakeem that AHF predicted, he'd get a $60M+ offer. You know this.

Hopefully Scola is the saviour that you are convinced he will be.

[MannyIsGod]

The point being that more likely than not, there will be SOMEONE, ANYONE making the money that Malik was going to make. So in the long run, there will be no savings.

If you want to say they did it to spend the money on someone whom they plan on actually using, that's a different story.

[kskonn]

And you believe that will happen? Nazr will play significant minutes and contribute for years to come?


it won't . But I bet the spurs where doing this knowing the following going into the deal

maliks trade value was only going down as he got older and his contract got bigger. With Nazr they have the opportunity to turn him into a solid player that might be worth a lot to another team. Simply, he gives the spurs more options.

1) if Nazr does not play well we can get rid of him and not pay him anything. Use our midlevel on devin and scola

2) if he does play well then a good center would be hot on the trade market perhaps a sign and trade for another great roll player that would fit the spurs system.

I could be, and proably am totally wrong, However that is how I would look at the deal.

[Kori Ellis]

Yes, they will. Did you read what I wrote? I said "the Spurs will have the ~$20 million (or ~$7 million a year) to use with the mid-level exception." Maybe you misinterpretted that "with" as "and." That's not what I meant. The salary intended for Rose can now go to a player that will have to be signed with the MLE. Yes, if they resign Nazr they won't have that money. But I seriously doubt they resign him.

Yes, I read your "with" to mean along with or and.

But they would have had the MLE anyway. So basically they only gained luxury tax relief?


Yes, if they resign Nazr they won't have that money.

Even if they re-sign Nazr, they'll still have the MLE.

[sungo99]

What aren't you understanding. This saves no money long-term unless the Spurs don't re-sign Nazr or Nazr sucks so much that the Spurs can get him for next to nothing. An average center in this league is getting paid way more than what is left on Rose's contract. So no matter how you slice it, the Spurs either have a good player who they have to pay a lot to keep and thus lose money on the trade, the Spurs will watch Nazr leave in free agency or the Spurs have a sucky player who can be picked up for cheap.

What aren't you understanding? This wasn't an economic move unless they knew Nazr was trash from the get go.

The Spurs aren't going to pay 6.5 million a year for a backup center. That's what Nazr would be for the Spurs and 6.5 million is Malik's contract in 06-07 and the amount the Spurs will have available because of the trade. They will still be over the cap, of course, but they can use that money to sign a player with the MLE. The MLE will probably be about 5.5 million. You can get more than a "sucky player" for that money.

[ChumpDumper]

The point being that more likely than not, there will be SOMEONE, ANYONE making the money that Malik was going to make. So in the long run, there will be no savings. And hopefully that player would play the minutes and role to justify his contract.
I know you don't know. But take a guess. Based on what you've seen of him in Philly, Atlanta, NY, and here. I know you watch a lot of basketball. A year from now, do you think you'll be interested in signing him to a contract starting at the least $7M/year?

I'm just curious as to your opinion. You are one of the brightest basketball minds in here.Honestly, I'm surpised he's looking this bad. It seems he might be at the point where he's trying to make the big impression every time he's on the court instead of concentrating on working in the system. I don't know if that can be fixed this season. Given the non-systems he worked in on other teams, it's difficult to say whether he's going to rise to a Rasho-level of understanding and effectiveness. If he does, the question becomes a choice of which pair from Rasho/Nazr/Scola you're going to keep, because there aren't enough minutes to justify paying them all.

[sungo99]

Yes, I read your "with" to mean along with or and.

But they would have had the MLE anyway. So basically they only gained luxury tax relief?



Even if they re-sign Nazr, they'll still have the MLE.

OK, I understand the confusion. Should have phrased it better. And I understand that they would still have the MLE if they hadn't traded Malik. I also understand that they could sign Nazr using his Bird rights and then also use the MLE. But both of those scenarios assume the Spurs have an unlimited payroll.

No matter what the luxury tax level is, the Spurs are only going to spend X amount of money. Malik's contract was a sizeable portion of that X. They can now use his money to sign a more useful player assuming they don't resign Nazr. Someone to replace Horry and/or someone to fill Bowen's shoes (he'll be getting pretty old at that point).

It's hard for a team like the Spurs to succeed, with a limited payroll, when they are paying ~$7 million a year for a third string PF who's 33ish. Especially when you have Tim Duncan as your starting PF.

[Louae]

:lmao

I was conditioned like Pavlovs dog to cringe and yell "nooooo!" at the TV every time Malik squared up to shoot from outside about 8 feet...

He was pretty consistent from the baseline and from the top of the key. I wasn't worried about him knocking down his shot. Especially if he was left all by himself off the pick and roll. The only time I didn't like him with the ball is when he'd get it and try to act like tim duncan. But if was flaring out from a pick and roll and took an open shot, I wasn't upset about him taking that shot. In fact, I'd feel a whole lot better with him taking that shot then Mohammad, Marks or Massenburg taking that shot.

[Louae]

Like i said there are certain things that Malik does well. And I agree if Malik was here maybe we rest horry. Except that Horry always played in front of Malik, and that was not going to change!!

Don't get me wrong, Horry would still be starting but he wouldn't have to play as many minutes as he's doing right now or we wouldn't have to worry about a drop in play when horry leaves the game. Malik would basically be taking up Mass/Marks/Mohammad minutes. That alone would be an improvement in the games TD has been out.


But name one game since duncan has been out that malik would have made a difference. and don't say the new york game. Honestly there are some games that if horry had not been in there we would not have won . What about this scenario, maybe if malik was in the game maybe we would have ended up losing because he might have taken Horrys playing time.

It would've been nice to have Malik taking up Massenburg's 17 minutes during the Phoenix game. And why can't I use the New York game? It's not like we have a large sample size to choose from since he's left. The New York game is a perfect example b/c he killed us doing what he could've been doing for us. And that's hitting the open jumper off the pick and roll. Shit, the New York game wasn't even a great game for Malik. And I'm still confused as to why you think Malik would be taking so many of Horry's minutes. I'm think of Malik taking Mass/Marks/Mohammad's minutes. And that's a good thing. I'm tired of the defense jumping on Parker and leaving our bigs all by themselves to shoot jumpers they can't make.


And seriously when has Malik consistently made teams Pay by spotting up for wide open jumpers. He has always been streaky. I have never heard an opposing coach say, " guys we have to focus on not letting Malik get open shots, If we do he could kill us".....

He sure did make us pay when we played the knicks. It would be nice to have him shooting that shot than having Marks/Mohammad/Mass shooting that shot.

[kskonn]

Don't get me wrong, Horry would still be starting but he wouldn't have to play as many minutes as he's doing right now or we wouldn't have to worry about a drop in play when horry leaves the game. Malik would basically be taking up Mass/Marks/Mohammad minutes. That alone would be an improvement in the games TD has been out.



It would've been nice to have Malik taking up Massenburg's 17 minutes during the Phoenix game. And why can't I use the New York game? It's not like we have a large sample size to choose from since he's left. The New York game is a perfect example b/c he killed us doing what he could've been doing for us. And that's hitting the open jumper off the pick and roll. Shit, the New York game wasn't even a great game for Malik. And I'm still confused as to why you think Malik would be taking so many of Horry's minutes. I'm think of Malik taking Mass/Marks/Mohammad's minutes. And that's a good thing. I'm tired of the defense jumping on Parker and leaving our bigs all by themselves to shoot jumpers they can't make.



He sure did make us pay when we played the knicks. It would be nice to have him shooting that shot than having Marks/Mohammad/Mass shooting that shot.


he was 6-18 against us. He really made us pay. He made us pay with put backs and rebounding.... The stuff he is good at. He does not have a rep for knocking down the jumper.

[MannyIsGod]

He hit several jumpers in the 2nd half which sealed the deal. Malik and Marbury were a very effective pick and roll combo that game.

[kskonn]

He hit several jumpers in the 2nd half which sealed the deal. Malik and Marbury were a very effective pick and roll combo that game.

I know, but like I said earlier he is streaky with the jumber. on and off. He also had some great offensive boards and put backs down the stretch. My only point is that you can count on him sealing the deal with the hustle play more than with his jumper, the jumper is not his strength. he also got to the Freethrow line a lot towards the end.

[texasqb2]

I am tired of all this talk. You guys have nothing to say so you still want to bash the organization for dealing Rose who flat out is undersized and tries to do much. He wasnt going to help us and was gonna make around 8 million to sit at the very end of the bench. Nazr is a better defender and is cheaper which allows us to bring Scola over, guys please get off Malik Rose, he'll probably be back when he gets waived in the near future. Who cares about the Knicks' players anyway, lets go win a championsip!

[timvp]

Nazr is a better defender and is cheaper which allows us to bring Scola

Nope.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh ok, you're tired of all this talk. I guess that should be our signal to stop? What should be talk about then? How great you are?

[kskonn]

I am tired of all this talk. You guys have nothing to say so you still want to bash the organization for dealing Rose who flat out is undersized and tries to do much. He wasnt going to help us and was gonna make around 8 million to sit at the very end of the bench. Nazr is a better defender and is cheaper which allows us to bring Scola over, guys please get off Malik Rose, he'll probably be back when he gets waived in the near future. Who cares about the Knicks' players anyway, lets go win a championsip!


The last few threads have not been about trashing the org it has been about how strategies have changed with the departure of Malik

And for the last time even if they kept Malik they still could have signed SCOLA.

[grjr]

Oh ok, you're tired of all this talk. I guess that should be our signal to stop? What should be talk about then? How great you are?

I thought the talking was supposed to stop last page after this post:


I pesonally feel we are focussing so much on Nazr and malik that we forgot one important piece to the puzzle. Horry!!!! if he keeps playing like he has been then this is a mute point.

Maybe I misunderstood though. :spin

[grjr]

[QUOTE=Kori Ellis]I know you don't know. But take a guess. Based on what you've seen of him in Philly, Atlanta, NY, and here. I know you watch a lot of basketball. A year from now, do you think you'll be interested in signing him to a contract starting at the least $7M/year?
QUOTE]

Kori , Do you think the Spurs' staff is pretty much shocked that Nazr is sucking this bad? I know I am and I didn't expect that much from him to start with.

[Frenchise player]

I know that financially wise, the trade doesn't make it easier to bring Scola. But in a basketball point of view, Scola seems like an argentinian copy of Malik. A PF little undersized with a big heart. If Malik was still here, we would have two bigs with the same qualities.

[kskonn]

I know that financially wise, the trade doesn't make it easier to bring Scola. But in a basketball point of view, Scola seems like an argentinian copy of Malik. A PF little undersized with a big heart. If Malik was still here, we would have two bigs with the same qualities.

Good point. He shoots better and is much more explosive offensively.