Something that Spurs Fans Refuse to Admit

[kwamay_brown54]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba. The upper echelon of the nba has leapfrogged the Spurs in terms of Team D and physicality on D. The Celtics, Cavs, and Lakers have far better potential on defense than the current version of the Spurs do, and this was never the case during the Spurs championship runs. Let the debate begin.

[DPG21920]

What debate. Spurs fans know this and we discuss it all of the time.

/thread

[sabar]

You obviously weren't around during the regular season and didn't see a single game recap.

[Mad Bonner]

Fukk you in the a-hole you faggot prick! I outta stick my 14 inch grinder down your throat!

[kwamay_brown54]

I like the Mcdyess signing, not a fan of the jefferson one though.

[kwamay_brown54]

Lakers were 6th in Defensive Efficiency per 100 possessions last year, what were the Spurs?

[Dunc n Dave]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba. The upper echelon of the nba has leapfrogged the Spurs in terms of Team D and physicality on D. The Celtics, Cavs, and Lakers have far better potential on defense than the current version of the Spurs do, and this was never the case during the Spurs championship runs. Let the debate begin.

Spurs sucked on defense last year by Spurs (and Spurs fans) standards, yet were still #9 in FG% allowed. We added a lot of defensive pieces this summer.
Rebounders in Blair and McDyess, shotblocker in Ratliff and Mahinmi (and McDyess, somewhat)
Better perimeter defender in Jefferson (and still possibly of getting Bowen back)

Lakers were only #6, so not sure where you get off including them in the Top 3? The top 3 were Cleveland, Boston, and Orlando.

The Lakers have the potential to improve on #6 with Ron Artest, but I can also see the Spurs back in the Top 5 again this year.

2010 Spurs>>>>>>>>>>2009 Spurs

[Muser]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/truestrican/CAPTAINOBVIOUS.png

[kwamay_brown54]

Notice how I said Lakers had the potential to be Top #3. But with Phil Jackson at the helm this will never come to fruition sadly. He preaches a defense that is based on overloading the strong side entirely and begging you to beat him with the long ball. Because the Lakers are #1 in offensive efficiency, this bizzaro scheme has a chance to work against about 80% of the teams in the NBA on any given night.

[TheProfessor]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba. The upper echelon of the nba has leapfrogged the Spurs in terms of Team D and physicality on D. The Celtics, Cavs, and Lakers have far better potential on defense than the current version of the Spurs do, and this was never the case during the Spurs championship runs. Let the debate begin.
Way to bring an original and timely argument.

[DPG21920]

What debate. Spurs fans know this and we discuss it all of the time.

/thread

[kwamay_brown54]

We'll let me know what you think Pop's defensive schemes will be to get back in the upper echelon again. The NBA has evolved and all of the top defensive ball clubs use some type of 2-3 or 3-2 zone scheme, and I don't think I see the Spurs use this much.

[DPG21920]

Scheme won't change, just who is guarding the best perimeter player will change. Pop already said that will be Jefferson. So instead of Finley doing it, Jefferson will and he is a pretty damn good defender even though he lost some of his lateral quickness.

Then you have McDyess guarding the same guys Bonner would. The scheme and system remains the same.

[21_Blessings]

Notice how I said Lakers had the potential to be Top #3. But with Phil Jackson at the helm this will never come to fruition sadly. He preaches a defense that is based on overloading the strong side entirely and begging you to beat him with the long ball. Because the Lakers are #1 in offensive efficiency, this bizzaro scheme has a chance to work against about 80% of the teams in the NBA on any given night.

Potential? they were top 3 last season The Lakers were a top 2 defense in the playoffs That's all that matters. Regular season team defense numbers are not really telling when you factor in the amount of blowouts LA had and the nights when Jekyl Lakers showed up.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defeff&seasonType=3&league=nba&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fteamstats%3fsort%3ddefeff%26seasonT ype%3d3%26league%3dnba

Actually they were better than Cleveland in the playoffs after you factor in how well the Lakers handled Dwight in comparison.

[kwamay_brown54]

I'm telling you that the old Spurs defensive system and schemes are outdated, and that the NBA has evolved away from traditional man to man defenses into a zone defense.

[21_Blessings]

It's not about the schemes. It's about Duncan being not even close to the player he was. Finley lol. And a grandpa Bowen.

The Spurs are done. With or without fag boy and Mcdyss.

[xellos88330]

I never had a problem admitting the Spurs defense wasn't that good. I saw it at the beginning of last year.

Don't be so quick to judge what REAL Spurs fans are like. REAL Spurs fans know their team. The people you spoke too were probably bandwagoners and not diehards like alot of posters here.

[arial]

This was openly discussed countless times this past season but you joined last month yet calling us out wtf?

[DPG21920]

It's not about the schemes. It's about Duncan being not even close to the player he was. Finley lol. And a grandpa Bowen.

The Spurs are done. With or without fag boy and Mcdyss.

It is amazing that every time a thread is started about the Spurs, a butt hurt Laker "fan" posting on a Spurs board resorts to trash talking.

[xellos88330]

It's not about the schemes. It's about Duncan being not even close to the player he was. Finley lol. And a grandpa Bowen.

The Spurs are done. With or without fag boy and Mcdyss.

:nope

[kwamay_brown54]

I never had a problem admitting the Spurs defense wasn't that good. I saw it at the beginning of last year.

Don't be so quick to judge what REAL Spurs fans are like. REAL Spurs fans know their team. The people you spoke too were probably bandwagoners and not diehards like alot of posters here.

I have just read alot of comments insulting other team's defensive abilities on this board, and felt that it was necessary to bring this topic up for debate.

[Muser]

Matt Bonner as your starting C is gonna bring your D down just a bit...

[kwamay_brown54]

The point of this topic was to point out that the landscape of the NBA has changed dramtically in the last few years, and that even when the Spurs are 110% healthy, the Celtics and Cavs are still better in almost every single defensive statistic that matters than the Spurs. Lakers I can understand, that is up for debate.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Actually they were better than Cleveland in the playoffs after you factor in how well the Lakers handled Dwight in comparison.


LA's defense is better than Cleveland's period. Cleveland's D was better against crappy teams, LA's defense was better when it mattered most. I know stats say I'm wrong but LA would have better defensive numbers if they brought the intensity to games against bottom feeders the way Cleveland does.

[xellos88330]

I have just read alot of comments insulting other team's defensive abilities on this board, and felt that it was necessary to bring this topic up for debate.

Looks like only 1 person to me. You said "Fans". Not fan.

You are being judgemental and stereotyping ALL Spurs fans because of what one guy says. Change the thread title to "Something that SOME Spurs fans refuse to admit". Problem solved.

[21_Blessings]

It is amazing that every time a thread is started about the Spurs, a butt hurt Laker "fan" posting on a Spurs board resorts to trash talking.

Not trash talking, it's stating facts.

Because you can't refute what I said.

[xellos88330]

I have just read alot of comments insulting other team's defensive abilities on this board, and felt that it was necessary to bring this topic up for debate.

Spurs and Pistons fans who have been watching their teams religiously (especially during the Championship years) when the defense was ridiculously good, would probably have a pretty decent knowledge about the defensive end of the court wouldn't you agree?

Saying that another team is inadequate defensively is not the same as saying "My team is better defensively than yours is."

[xellos88330]

Not trash talking, it's stating facts.

Because you can't refute what I said.

:wgaf:

[kwamay_brown54]

There were countless and i mean countless threads on this forum, tearing apart the Lakers on defense this year against houston, denver, and orlando, and most of them were prolly warranted. I just wanted to point out that the Spurs are in the same class as the lakers on defense, and not in the class of Boston and Cleveland even when healthy.

[Muser]

There were countless and i mean countless threads on this forum, tearing apart the Lakers on defense this year against houston, denver, and orlando, and most of them were prolly warranted. I just wanted to point out that the Spurs are in the same class as the lakers on defense, and not in the class of Boston and Cleveland even when healthy.


Just because people say the Lakers D was below par doesn't mean they are saying the Spurs are better, hell I could've been Suns fan and said the Lakers D was sub par at times.

[cornbread]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba.
How could a team that had the defensive juggernaut known as Matt Bonner as its starting center have defensive issues?

I'm a Spurs fan and I refuse to admit it.

[antgomez2009]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba. The upper echelon of the nba has leapfrogged the Spurs in terms of Team D and physicality on D. The Celtics, Cavs, and Lakers have far better potential on defense than the current version of the Spurs do, and this was never the case during the Spurs championship runs. Let the debate begin.


Yeah, there is nothing to debate about!!!

You Fool!

We all know that the Spurs have not been up to par with the top 3 or 4 teams defensively, but they are not horribly behind either! I mean, they are still top 5 team in that category!!!

So yea, we SPURS fans know that Defense wins championships!! and With the additions this offseason its looking like they will get back to D-Mode this upcoming year!!!


:toast

[kwamay_brown54]

Suns fans aren't allowed to debate in this topic :lol

[SonOfAGun]

Not only did the Spurs D suck, they were reliant on 3 pt shooting and the penetration of their two guards for points in the paint.

Duncan's got toughness beside him on Defense and better weapons on offense, so big things could happen.

[Muser]

Watch the tape of the Spurs in 2003 in game 6 vs the lakers in the playoffs. The 2nd half was some of the best D I've seen in the last 20 years, the Spurs are not even close to that level anymore.

Because that was Tim Duncans prime year(s), one of the greatest defensive anchors ever to play in his prime. What do you expect?

[kwamay_brown54]

Because that was Tim Duncans prime year(s), one of the greatest defensive anchors ever to play in his prime. What do you expect?


Thats why I like the McDyess signing, and don't understand getting rid of Bruce Bowen. Bowen was and still is easily your best perimiter defender against elite 2's and 3's, hell his work against PG's is admirable also.

[DPG21920]

Not trash talking, it's stating facts.

Because you can't refute what I said.

1) You don't get the reference
2) You are an idiot
3) I can't refute that Tim at the end tail end of his career is not as good as he once was when his was MVP? No shit.

[DJB]

Just wait and see. We're going to murder every team we face this coming season and all this talk won't be anywhere to be found.:nope

[kwamay_brown54]

Just wait and see. We're going to murder every team we face this coming season and all this talk won't be anywhere to be found.:nope


I hope so man, because it's a shame that the media regards scum like KG(who had 1 elite year) as a better defensive player than Tim Duncan. I'm curious as to what Pop comes up with though this year however.

[ulosturedge]

We already know the defense has been deteriorating the past couple of years lol. Our defense was at its pinnacle when we had a "twin towers" setup. We did that with Robinson, Rasho, and Elson as a complimentary piece to Duncan. Somehow we got stuck with fake centers playing along side Duncan the past couple of years(aka bonner, thomas). Spurs interior defense is all predicated on the help defense by the opposite bigman coming over. Last year none of that was happening. Because Bonner is Bonner and Duncan was slowed with injuries. Then you throw in the fact that Bowen's age finally caught up with him so we had no "stopper" to help slow or shutdown the stars on the other team. But what makes that worse is we didn't even have Manu out there we had to survive on Mason's defense which is extremely mediocre. Then you got Finley trying his heart out to play defense but i'm sorry he's just too old and not a defense type player.


I could go on and on here. Your an idiot to think we don't see these things. The Spurs did the best they could to address all these issues in the offseason. It will be a matter of time to see how well things come together. How good the Spurs will be next year will be mostly based on how healthy the team can stay.

Schemes dont mean shit when you dont have the personnel to execute them. And our big 3 got us 3 championships so it would be stupid not to ride them out and hope for the best. Parkers in his prime, Duncan is Duncan, and we wouldn't get near the value of Manu out of a trade.

[carrao45]

LA's defense is better than Cleveland's period. Cleveland's D was better against crappy teams, LA's defense was better when it mattered most. I know stats say I'm wrong but LA would have better defensive numbers if they brought the intensity to games against bottom feeders the way Cleveland does.

They would i agree, but why bother to bring that intensity to those teams anyway? The Lakers proved they didn't need to and they could turn it on and off whenever they felt like it

[kwamay_brown54]

They would i agree, but why bother to bring that intensity to those teams anyway? The Lakers proved they didn't need to and they could turn it on and off whenever they felt like it


This is the kind of mindset that is a result of Phil Jackson coaching. Like I said earlier, it works against 80 to 85% of the teams in the league, but against Boston or Cleveland it can fail miserably.

[kwamay_brown54]

If you rewatch the Spurs-Lakers series in 2008, the Spurs played quality D in 4 out 5 games. It's just that their offense, which has historically been inept, was extremely inept, and their defense could no longer pay the bills so to speak. My point now is, even when 100% healthy, can the spurs get back to juggernaut status on Defense again?

[kwamay_brown54]

The previous formula for Spurs championships ALWAYS included the spurs being a top 3 defensive ball club in most major and significant defensive categories. So its obvious that the spurs are shifting away from this mindset by adding players like jefferson and subtracting Bruce Bowen. Will this strategy work however, because going offense vs offense against the Lakers is a bad idea. Spurs can beat the Lakers with their suffocating defense, its how they did in the past.

[phyzik]

Not trash talking, it's stating facts.

Because you can't refute what I said.

Its impossible to refute an opinion, jackass.

[ulosturedge]

The previous formula for Spurs championships ALWAYS included the spurs being a top 3 defensive ball club in most major and significant defensive categories. So its obvious that the spurs are shifting away from this mindset by adding players like jefferson and subtracting Bruce Bowen. Will this strategy work however, because going offense vs offense against the Lakers is a bad idea. Spurs can beat the Lakers with their suffocating defense, its how they did in the past.

You play the hand that is dealt to you. Getting RJ makes us better anyways you look at it. Having McDyess in the game vs Bonner is an upgrade. I believe Blair is also going to be a nice suprise for us as will George Hill who is coming into his 2nd season as a professional. Its also my belief that Hairston will be slowly filling the void that is left by Bruce Bowen.

Yes the Spurs might be losing defense and gaining offense, but that doesn't mean they are foresaking defense in any shape or form.

How teams match up are just as important as anything also. I wouldn't put everything on defensive statistics...

[kwamay_brown54]

How teams match up are just as important as anything also. I wouldn't put everything on defensive statistics...

Fair enough, because no computer simulation or vegas insider could have ever predicted the Mavs would win 2 road games in 2006 vs the spurs or even last year, using data on the mavs D and the Spurs D.

[crc21209]

As much as this team lives in the past, the one thing that has been blatantly disregarded by the majority of Spurs fans, is that this team is no longer a top 3 defensive ball club in the nba. The upper echelon of the nba has leapfrogged the Spurs in terms of Team D and physicality on D. The Celtics, Cavs, and Lakers have far better potential on defense than the current version of the Spurs do, and this was never the case during the Spurs championship runs. Let the debate begin.

And this coming from a Memphis fan...:lol. That is all...

[lefty]

Lakers were 6th in Defensive Efficiency per 100 possessions last year, what were the Spurs?
Certainly not busy giving away an all-star for nothing

[Culburn369]

Decay has crept into the core of the Spurs. This process has been slow, but, undeniable. Natural aging, coupled with continual deep playoff runs have taken a heavy toll. Defense is the usually the initial casualty when this process advances.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think the Spurs still are more than capable of being an elite defensive team again, they just got to go back to playing better lineups.

Mason and Bonner getting major minutes really wasn't helping the team D at all. While Bowen is slowing down, he was still highly effective for SA when he was on the court. The talent the Spurs acquired doesn't just excite me for what the Spurs can do offensively, but as well as what they can do now defensively as well.

[Rogue]

I don't see Blair or Dyess able to hold the bank when getting pushed into guys with strong muscles like Diop. Spurs haven't infused any cement into the framework so their paint will still get owned at the defensive end, though the offensive upgrades are quite significant after acquiring Dyess, Jefferson, Blair, Ian, etc... Indeed, there's no weakness if they only need to cope with soft ass centers/PF like Pao and Yao, but the Spurs have to get prepared for troubles everytime facing teams that have tough centers or PFs.

[bresilhac]

It's not about the schemes. It's about Duncan being not even close to the player he was. Finley lol. And a grandpa Bowen.

The Spurs are done. With or without fag boy and Mcdyss.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Do you dickless? If anybody's done it's those Hollywood fags you call a basketball team.

[Culburn369]

Spurs were 5th, as I've said before..despite all the problems..

But, those are raw numbers (Lakers 6th|||Spurs 5th). Neither team can play impact defense without fouling. The Lakers no better than the Spurs. The Spurs used to be able to play suffocating defense for long periods of time, wresting control of games. That has not been the case for quite a spell now.

[Spursfan092120]

Dude...all Spurs fans know that we're not a top 3 defensive ball club...what the hell rock have you been under? Pay attention, dude. Apparently you've picked today to make yourself look like a complete and total dumbass.

[mingus]

It's not about the schemes. It's about Duncan being not even close to the player he was. Finley lol. And a grandpa Bowen.

The Spurs are done. With or without fag boy and Mcdyss.

you better hope the Duncan of the first half of last season doesn't show up against LA in WCF - if they play eachother there. he was a beast, and he was pretty damn close to a prime-Duncan. with the extra help the Spurs have brought in, the Spurs won't have to be as dependent on him, so there's reason to believe that he'll be able to sustain himself and stay fresh for the playoffs.

better start praying that he doesn't. :lol

[METALMiKE]

Where does Memphis' defense rank?

[Chieflion]

Where does Memphis' defense rank?
Fool! Didnt you know that O.J Mayo the Juiceman scores 81 points a game?

[Spursfan 87]

Hey that was last year. This year's team is going to be better in every aspect of the game.

08-09 09-10
Duncan Duncan
Bonner McDyess
Finley Jefferson
Mason Ginobili
Parker Parker

[kwamay_brown54]

No doubt the Spurs have made significant upgrades this offseason, but their motto was always keep the game close till the 4th quarter, than execute better than anyone else and win the game because of their defense. I just question if that strategy can still work considering that the league has advanced defensively, and even when 100% healthy they're other teams with more talent on both sides of the ball.

[Dunc n Dave]

SPurs FG% allowed in 07-08: 44.4%
Spurs FG% allowed in 08-90: 45.27

Playing bad defenders like Mason, Bonner, and Finley for big minutes means your defense will suffer. Couple that with the fact your best perimeter defender averaged around 12 minutes per game and you see a drop off in defense.

Replace those 3 guys with Manu, McDyess, and Jefferson and your defnse gets better by default. The 3 guys mentioned from last year playing fewer minutes becomes addition by subtraction. The defense will pick back up. If we re-sign Bowen after he is released on Aug 1st, it will back to one of the Top 5 in FG% allowed, where the SPurs have always been (until last year).

[Morg1411]

They admit that they suck ass at defense.

I admit to you being a worthless bandwagoning cocksucker. Get 21Blessings' tiny dick out of your ass.

[exstatic]

:lol Just replacing Finley in the starting lineup with RJeff should be good for lowering the opp FG% by 1.5-2% and probably 3 ppg.

Admittedly, Blair is not an elite defender. What he is, though, is an elite glass cleaner. You'd better hit your first shot, because, unlike years past, there won't be a second one.

Memo to Laker fans: we still have a Finals MVP and multi time All Star in his 20s. Do you?