New Mavs are the old Suns

[Flux451]

I used to despise the Mavs. Now, I only dislike them. The fans, well, I still loathe them...worse then Lakers fans. At least Lake fans have braggin rights.

The Mavs will be high energy and offensive minded this year (duh). Like the Suns of past, all O and no D. Adding Gooden solidifies my thought. But I am interested in seeing this new Mavs team. I have always liked Kidd. Ever since the Spurs/Nets playoffs. He is the epitome of PG. Mavs losing Harris shed some intense hate for the team.
Now the Mavs have Marion. I always liked watching his high energy and above the rim play with the Suns. He has the ugliest shot in the world, but I looked past that. But, I used to be happy he wasn't on our team when he would make bone-headed mistakes. Stackhouse and George. While not doing much recently, I still had a lingering bad taste.
Gooden was a fun player to have for a hot min. He had his moments of motivation and intensity.

Despite not wanted any of these three players on the Spurs team, I still think it will be interesting to see them gel. Add Howard, Dirk, Hobbitsis, Terry, Humpries and Hollins and you have an uptempo, energetic, high scoring team. Just like the Suns, I disliked them as rivals, but enjoyed watching them at a distance.










P.S. FTL, FTM, and FTS for life ese!

[Ghazi]

I hope you're right, since the Suns should have won it all in 2007. But I don't see many similarities

1. The Mavs probably won't have the fastest pace in the league like the Suns generally did.
2. the Mavs can very easily be a top 10 defensive team.
3. The Mavs probably won't have the best offense in the league (Lakers)
4. Mavs probably won't jack up AS many three's as those Suns did
5. Carlisle is vastly different than D'Antonio when it comes to philosophy, although he probably won't be able to run a slow paced, grind it out half-court team due to the roster, he won't implement run and gun either.

Some similarities though... may see a lot of smallball this year with Marion/Dirk... buttt don't see many others.?bbb

[Culburn369]

I found this and couldn't figure out where to lodge it. This seemed ok. It has some hilarious shit it--especially toward the end & the last sentence is priceless. I did not add the bolding.
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/58693 (http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/58693)


Quote:
Squeezing in some orange

Camp is about to start. Cardinals, that is. The Suns go camping in San Diego in two months. Until then, the Suns information comes in morsels. Such as:

* It sounds like Steve Nash will be making things official on his extension Monday. There was the obvious paperwork to sign and some physical examination to do. The latter is probably a safeguard, considering that the extension is uninsured because of his age.

* Their returns were likely anyway but would you have felt stronger about Alvin Gentry getting a head coach contract done and Grant Hill getting a new contract done if you knew they had become investors in the third Majerle's Sports Grill in Goodyear? The third establishment with Suns assistant coach Dan Majerle's name is opening Monday west of Dysart and McDowell. The second one, in Chandler, included Suns broadcast analyst Scott Williams as an investor. The downtown one was once ranked by Sports Illustrated as one of the nation's top 25 sports bars.

* Lots of names get tossed around for the Suns' 13th roster spot (well, 14th until Sasha Pavlovic is waived or traded). It's probably going to be a while, unless some quality player steps forth and says he wants to play in Phoenix for the minimum. The expectation is that the Suns will go with a point guard or center when they do make a choice, with a big seeming more likely. Goran Dragic was not fabulous in his first NBA Summer League appearance but all they want is to be able to rest Nash for 18 minutes a game. Of course, that's all Mike D'Antoni, Terry Porter and Alvin Gentry have wanted to do. Gentry has some the closest, getting him down to 33.2 per game after the All-Star break with the aid of being out of it at the end. The Suns might need an emergency banger, who can throw a big body against post-up players and rebound because Lou Amundson is the only Suns frontcourt player who is considered to be a strong rebounder. The interesting dynamic to consider is whether they land a quality guy and try to wedge him into the rotation or aim for a role player who will not be an issue if he is not playing. The Suns could bring some non-guaranteed guys, like summer point guard Zabian Dowdell, to camp and preseason and see who gets waived elsewhere before opening night. Taylor Griffin, 10 for 32 in Vegas, didn't seem to help his cause for the spot.

* Is it too late to talk summer league? It ended a week ago tonight but perhaps not enough was said about the job Earl Clark did on top pick Blake Griffin in that last game on Sunday. The best thing Clark showed all week was his defensive versatility but he saved his best defense for last. If Griffin made a shot, it was a tough contested one or it was against someone else because Clark was rotating to another man or resting on the bench. He didn't let Griffin get where he wanted. He stopped his attempts to drive. He blocked a lean-back jumper. He fronted him on the post. He denied and thwarted alleyoop tries. On the other end, Clark averaged 11.3 points and shot 38 percent. He still showed a propensity to take long two-point jumpers and to get stuck in the air when he drives. Well-coach defensively, Clark might have a bigger transition coming offensively as he moves from the Louisville system, albeit a fast, pro-style one, to the freedom Phoenix's system will give him.

* All that said about Clark, a lasting summer league memory will be Clark inbounding the ball in backcourt to a referee, who had to dodge it as it rolled out of bounds. It wasn't like he didn't know the ball was live. The ref had just given it to him. It's right up there with Lopez hoisting a 3-pointer at the end of the last game and getting it counted because Kevin Pinkney intentionally goaltended it. Lopez called for the ball at the line and looked over to the bench for Majerle's approval but the coach was shaking hands with Anthony Houston, one of his assistants. The shot did have more of a chance than the 10-foot lefthanded hook Lopez tried earlier. Summer league is a place to experiment.

* Even though he did not start playing well until the second half of summer league, Dragic still ended up ranked fifth in assists per game (5.4). He also averaged 12.0 points, the best among the Suns' regulars (Alando Tucker led but only played one game by design to show his good health). On the flip side, Dragic was 0 for 6 on 3-pointers and averaged 3.2 turnovers per game. Dragic is in Slovenia now to train with his national team, which will play in the European Championship in September. We'll see how his court time works out now that Sasha Vujacic has joined a team that already had Beno Udrih.

* Matt Barnes landed in a good place. He will back up Rashard Lewis in Orlando and maybe get some other minutes in a smaller lineup. He will be on a better team and make more than he did with Phoenix, getting about $1.6 million with a player option for a second year. Barnes gives a team versatility and effort but just how many facial cringes will his on-court decisions draw from Stan Van Gundy? And who will Gentry yell at now when Nash messes up?

[pauls931]

I don't see how adding marion hurts their chances or makes them any more suns like. He's the only recent sun who played defense outside of bell.

[DAF86]

I think Suns' style would be the best for this core of Mavs players but I don't see Carlise using it.

I'd like to see a line-up of:

Kidd
Terry
Howard
Marion
Nowitzki

Dirk would be D'antoni's dream center.

[pauls931]

This is killin' me, I'm actually interested in seeing what the mavs do this year. Their front office actually made some changes that make the team better. Wish I could say that about my team. btw... Fuck the Mavs!!!

[ElNono]

2. the Mavs can very easily be a top 10 defensive team.

What? :lmao

[DAF86]

What? :lmao

Hey, there are only 30 teams on the league, and 20 of them suck. So they might have a chance of getting there.

[ElNono]

Hey, there are only 30 teams on the league, and 20 of them suck. So they might have a chance of getting there.

I think on the defensive side they actually regressed with the guys they signed up. That said, at least Gooden is a good rebounder.

[BUMP]

What a retarded thread.

They should have a screening test on ST, to test for stupidity, before you make a thread

[Chieflion]

Is the OP insulting the Mavs?

[Flux451]

Is the OP insulting the Mavs?

No, I am being genuine.

[Flux451]

What a retarded thread.

They should have a screening test on ST, to test for stupidity, before you make a thread

Yeah its up there with the Chump that started threads like Pele is overated... and Memphis making playoffs with Iverson.

I took my piss test, came clean.
Don't like what you see then get the fuck out.

[hater]

Come on. The mavs are not that pathetic. They are actually a decent team. Nowhere close to elite, but a merely strong team. Probably still good enough to beat us without our 2nd best player. but that's about it

[BUMP]

Come on. The mavs are not that pathetic. They are actually a decent team. Nowhere close to elite, but a merely strong team. Probably still good enough to beat us without our 2nd best player. but that's about it

Didn't we beat you guys with Parker?

[hater]

Didn't we beat you guys with Parker?

Parker is our 3rd best player if you consider the defensive side. Of course you are a mav fan, what would you know about Defense. I'll let it go this time

[BUMP]

Parker is our 3rd best player

Thanks for playing, have a good night

[hater]

the only similarity I see from these Mavs and Suns is that their best player plays no defense. Teams built like that will never win anything more than a meaningless Conference Title.

[Flux451]

Didn't we beat you guys with Parker?

Still looking at the past? We have a new look this season my friend. Right now on paper we are looking alot better then the Mavs.

[DAF86]

Thanks for playing, have a good night

Everybody is saying (even me) that Manu is the Spurs 3rd best player 'cause he has been injured since the '08 playoffs but the last time we saw a healthy Manu, He was getting MVP votes, so you never know. If he manages to stay healthy all season he hasn't shown any signs of slowing down.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I don't know about them being a great defensive squad with that line up, but they won't be the Suns. What killed the SSOL Suns deader than the dodo is that they couldn't rebound on top of their defensive woes. Even when their "bigs" weren't bailing on a play early to get out and start the next fastbreak, they were too small to get in there and bang with the traditional centers and PFs when it came to rebounding in a crowd.

I don't think Carlisle will be that damn free wheeling, and with the addition of Gooden, the Mavs are going to be a pretty good rebounding team, especially if they throw any line up with Howard at SG and Marion at SF. Outside of Dampier they don't have anyone to really clog the paint, but they will be able to hit the boards.

To recap, top 10 D? If they do then it will because there are only nine good defenses in the league. Suns? Far from it.

[dirk4mvp]

Parker is our 3rd best player if you consider the defensive side. Of course you are a mav fan, what would you know about Defense. I'll let it go this time

No one's ever accused Manu of being a lockdown defender either.

[jacobdrj]

Rick Carlisle would NEVER have a Sun-like defenseless run-and-gun team. He would sooner commit suicide.

[DAF86]

No one's ever accused Manu of being a lockdown defender either.

But he isn't a bad one either, and he makes a lot of things happen on that end: game changing: Steals, blocks, flops, etc. And he was untill now our second best rebounder behind Tim.

[hater]

No one's ever accused Manu of being a lockdown defender either.

Manu'd D >>> Parker's D

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Of course you are a mav fan, what would you know about Defense.


These types of comments are retarded....why the fuck would being a Mavs fan make it so he doesn't know what defense is?

[BUMP]

These types of comments are retarded....why the fuck would being a Mavs fan make it so he doesn't know what defense is?

The NBA team that you root for directly effects your knowledge and skill for the game.

Didn't you know?

[hater]

These types of comments are retarded....why the fuck would being a Mavs fan make it so he doesn't know what defense is?

A Defensive minded team adopts a Defensive philosophy. A great defensive team has years of this philosophy. This is so instill that even the fans adopt and learn this philosophy. This philosophy among many other things makes you observe the defensive side of the game and value players for their Defensive skill.

but what would you know, you are a Suns fan

[Findog]

the only similarity I see from these Mavs and Suns is that their best player plays no defense. Teams built like that will never win anything more than a meaningless Conference Title.

Dirk is a decent defender. He's not Bill Russell in his prime, but he's a cut above Amare or Nash on D.

[Findog]

Rick Carlisle would NEVER have a Sun-like defenseless run-and-gun team. He would sooner commit suicide.

The Mavs were mediocre defensively last year. We were terrible at the beginning of the season and made strides towards the end. In any event, far from the Matador D the Suns play.

[BUMP]

Well i guess Bowen, Battier, Ben Wallace must've gotten all their defensive knowledge by rooting for the Bulls growing up?

It all makes sense now

[ElNono]

Dirk is a decent defender. He's not Bill Russell in his prime, but he's a cut above Amare or Nash on D.

IOW, sometimes he actually tries.

[hater]

Dirk is a decent defender. He's not Bill Russell in his prime, but he's a cut above Amare or Nash on D.

Dirk was a shitty defender until around 2005. Yes he has gotten better and actually tries now. No doubt he is above Nash/Amare.

That being said he is still an average defender at best. If Dirk had been an above average defender, Mavs would probably have at least 1 trophy if not more.

[pawe]

I think Suns' style would be the best for this core of Mavs players but I don't see Carlise using it.

I'd like to see a line-up of:

Kidd
Terry
Howard
Marion
Nowitzki

Dirk would be D'antoni's dream center.

Pop will pull his nose hairs out when he plays against that lineup.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

A Defensive minded team adopts a Defensive philosophy. A great defensive team has years of this philosophy. This is so instill that even the fans adopt and learn this philosophy. This philosophy among many other things makes you observe the defensive side of the game and value players for their Defensive skill.

but what would you know, you are a Suns fan


It's always funny when Spurfan posts something identical to what the troll Ignorant Spurs fan would post.

And you being a Spurs fan doesn't mean you know more about defense than I do. That's some of the most pompous, ridiculous, and retarded logic ever.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The NBA team that you root for directly effects your knowledge and skill for the game.

My bad. I didn't know this. I guess I don't know what defense is.

NASH FOR DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR!!!

AMARE FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSE!!!!

[da_suns_fan]

Dirk is a decent defender. He's not Bill Russell in his prime, but he's a cut above Amare or Nash on D.

Put down the kool-aid.

Dirk is a gifted shooter, but youre lying to yourself about his defense. That guy cant guard anybody and isnt a good help defender either.

[dirk4mvp]

Cream on the inside

[dirk4mvp]

clean on the outside

[dirk4mvp]

ice cream paint job

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wtf Dirk4mvp? That's my facebook status right now?!?!?!?!?!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

0yfArN-e2OU

[dirk4mvp]

neat song

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So I guess in 2000 and 2001 (the first two years I was old enough to understand basketball), I was a defensive expert because at the time the Suns were a great defensive team. I might have been a newbie basketball fan, but the fact I cheered for a great defensive team made me a defensive know-it-all.

Now, 8 years later, even though I've watched close to 1,000 basketball games since then, have played in countless amounts of pickup games since then, my knowledge of defense has actually spiraled downward because the team I cheer for has been a bad defensive team for several years.

Oh, and in addition, even though I was watching the same nationally televised playoff games Lakers, Pistons, Spurs, Heat and Celtics fans were watching, they know a lot more about winning championships than me because they were watching AND cheering for the champion, while I was merely just watching it.

[Findog]

Now, 8 years later, even though I've watched close to 1,000 basketball games since then, have played in countless amounts of pickup games since then, my knowledge of defense has actually spiraled downward because the team I cheer for has been a bad defensive team for several years.



There's a significant chunk of the Spurs fanbase that likes to pull the 4 rings card as some sort of appeal to their authority., i.e "I root for a team that has won 4 championships, so I know what I'm talking about more than you."

[Findog]

Put down the kool-aid.

Dirk is a gifted shooter, but youre lying to yourself about his defense. That guy cant guard anybody and isnt a good help defender either.

This comment would've been true in 2004. You obviously haven't watched Dirk play since then. Nothing more need be said.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There's a significant chunk of the Spurs fanbase that likes to pull the 4 rings card as some sort of appeal to their authority., i.e "I root for a team that has won 4 championships, so I know what I'm talking about more than you."

Even though the fan himself has just as many rings as the suns/mavs fan he's arguing with.

[Phillip]

the only similarity I see from these Mavs and Suns is that their best player plays no defense. Teams built like that will never win anything more than a meaningless Conference Title.

lol magic johnson

lol larry bird

lol 8 titles between them

lol both god-awful defenders

[Ghazi]

What? :lmao

Not out of the question... adding Marion is a + for defense/rebounding, God willing we have a healthy and motivated (contract year) J-Ho... and hopefully the guys in blue cut out those weird games like 99-134 v Milwaukee and 97-121 v New Jersey and other bizarre blowout losses which tilt the defensive efficiency negatively in a big way, even if 1 game samples... so yes, top 10 is feasible. Keep in mind Charlotte/New Orleans/Denver/Portland were top 10 teams from efficiency standpoint and I wouldn't really consider them THAT great defensively... also Mavs were top 10 from 05-07 and weren't shutdown caliber either.

[dirk4mvp]

lol magic johnson

lol larry bird

lol 8 titles between them

lol both god-awful defenders

No they weren't.

[Muser]

lol magic johnson

lol larry bird

lol 8 titles between them

lol both god-awful defenders

:rolleyes

[in2deep]

Bird n Magic were both above average defenders. Way better than Dirk

[Muser]

Dirks D is underrated on this board, he's no prime Ben Wallace but he's not the huge liability that people are saying.

[in2deep]

Dirks D is underrated on this board, he's no prime Ben Wallace but he's not the huge liability that people are saying.

u crazy.

Dirk is a 7 footer that DOES NOT HELP on D. I have never, ever seen him block a shot. :bang

[dirk4mvp]

u crazy.

Dirk is a 7 footer that DOES NOT HELP on D. I have never, ever seen him block a shot. :bang

You've never seen the Mavericks play or are retarded. Both maybe.

[Ghazi]

u crazy.

Dirk is a 7 footer that DOES NOT HELP on D. I have never, ever seen him block a shot. :bang

here u go mate! :)

opqXvibhFtM

[Muser]

u crazy.

Dirk is a 7 footer that DOES NOT HELP on D. I have never, ever seen him block a shot. :bang


sO5eMFFiSM0

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

u crazy.

Dirk is a 7 footer that DOES NOT HELP on D. I have never, ever seen him block a shot. :bang


Um, he averages a block a game, either way it doesn't even matter. Blocking a lot of shots has a lot more to do with good athleticism than good defense.

[in2deep]

show me a Dirk block in a game that matters?

Bonner plays tougher D than Dirk

[Muser]

show me a Dirk block in a game that matters?

Bonner plays tougher D than Dirk


A playoff game doesn't matter?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

show me a Dirk block in a game that matters?


At first it was, "I've never seen Dirk block a shot ever."

Now it's, "I've never seen Dirk block a shot in a game that matters."



I wonder what's next.

[da_suns_fan]

This comment would've been true in 2004. You obviously haven't watched Dirk play since then. Nothing more need be said.

Except maybe that every statistical category that exists suggests the Dirk Nowitzki is a poor defender and has been since 2004.

He doesnt block shots, rebound, or even bother people with his length the way Duncan, KG or even Lamar Odom do.

As for Amare Stoudemire, at least he has the occasional big block night. Steve Nash actually led the NBA in charges taken one year, IIRC. At least they do SOMETHING.

Dirk Nowitzki is green light to hole. PERIOD.

[Muser]

A Suns fan trash talking about no D :lmao:lmao:lmao

[da_suns_fan]

Um, he averages a block a game, either way it doesn't even matter. Blocking a lot of shots has a lot more to do with good athleticism than good defense.

Since when does 0.8 = 1?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=609

FAIL.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Steve Nash actually led the NBA in charges taken one year, IIRC.

Anyone who thinks that matters is retarded.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Since when does 0.8 = 1?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=609

FAIL.


I wasn't aware we were only talking about last season.

[da_suns_fan]

A Suns fan trash talking about no D :lmao:lmao:lmao

Dont get me wrong. Amare Stoudemire is one of the worst defenders (if not the worst) in the league. But Dirk is right up there with him.

Ive seen too many games with (insert Phoenix forward here) lighting him up with finesse.

[Ghazi]

Except maybe that every statistical category that exists suggests the Dirk Nowitzki is a poor defender and has been since 2004.

He doesnt block shots, rebound, or even bother people with his length the way Duncan, KG or even Lamar Odom do.

As for Amare Stoudemire, at least he has the occasional big block night. Steve Nash actually led the NBA in charges taken one year, IIRC. At least they do SOMETHING.

Dirk Nowitzki is green light to hole. PERIOD.

Actually, if we're gonna bring statistics into this, Dirk's adjusted +/-, on/off stats, DEFENSIVE rebound rate, rate of blocks even... and PER of opposing front lines over the past 3-4 years would suggest he is an above average defender.

Just sayin... too lazy to look all that shit up though. of course his lateral quickness, or lack thereof, will always create some problems but still not a defensive liability to the degree of Nash or Redd or Curry or I dunno whoevers a bad defender in this league IMO IMHO FWIW.

[da_suns_fan]

Anyone who thinks that matters is retarded.

WTF?

Because using footwork and anticipation to position yourself to take charges and cause turnovers doesnt matter?!!

Moron.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Blocks, charges taken, steals. All three are overrated stats. A PG getting his career high against Nash being a constantly re-occurring event matters a lot more.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

WTF?

Because using footwork and anticipation to position yourself to take charges and cause turnovers doesnt matter?!!

Moron.


No, because for every time Nash takes a charge there are 6-7 times where the player drives right by Nash while he's gambling by trying to draw a charge.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Good defenses aren't ones that force a lot of turnovers, they hold their opponent to a low shooting percentage and limit offensive rebounds.

[da_suns_fan]

Actually, if we're gonna bring statistics into this, Dirk's adjusted +/-, on/off stats, DEFENSIVE rebound rate, rate of blocks even... and PER of opposing front lines over the past 3-4 years would suggest he is an above average defender.

Just sayin... too lazy to look all that shit up though. of course his lateral quickness, or lack thereof, will always create some problems but still not a defensive liability to the degree of Nash or Redd or Curry or I dunno whoevers a bad defender in this league IMO IMHO FWIW.

You'll have to show me these stats (from 82games.com or wherever) to convince me.

Among power forwards last year, he was 15th in the league in defensive reboud rate. 36th overrall. And if you think thats a good indicator of defense, consider he is behind Shaquille Oneal:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=drr&qual=true&pos=all&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3ddrr%26qual%3dtr ue%26pos%3dall%26seasonType%3d2

[da_suns_fan]

Blocks, charges taken, steals. All three are overrated stats. A PG getting his career high against Nash being a constantly re-occurring event matters a lot more.

I can remember Tony Parker gettig a career high.

Who else?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Good defenses aren't ones that force a lot of turnovers, they hold their opponent to a low shooting percentage and limit offensive rebounds.

How did a Suns fan discover our secret? It was that son of a bitch Sean Marks that told you, wasn't it?!?!? We're doomed!

[Ghazi]

Yooo like I said, above average :lol. 15th even fi unimpressive still constitutes above average rebounding.


off topic, I didnt know Troy Murphy was that damn good at rebounding.

[Findog]

As for Amare Stoudemire, at least he has the occasional big block night. Steve Nash actually led the NBA in charges taken one year, IIRC. At least they do SOMETHING.


You can't be taken seriously if you think Nash and Amare are better defenders than Dirk. Nash does not have the lateral quickness to stay in front of anybody, and Amare simply refuses to play D. Yeah, he'll get the occasional blocked shot so he can get on SportsCenter, but he has no clue on D. Dirk will rotate and follow his defensive assignment; Amare just stands there half the time.

Dirk is not a very good on the ball defender, but he has become a good help defender and has become a very good positional defender at playing angles. I didn't say he was Bill Russell or Ben Wallace in their primes, just that he's made strides and is no longer a huge gaping liability on D. Nash and Amare play on one side of the court only. Ask any coach or GM and they'll tell you that Dirk has much more impact on D than either of your two favorite players.

[Findog]

Dont get me wrong. Amare Stoudemire is one of the worst defenders (if not the worst) in the league. But Dirk is right up there with him.

Nope. Dirk is a cut above Amare on Defense.



Ive seen too many games with (insert Phoenix forward here) lighting him up with finesse.

Dirk can't guard Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire. Point of fact is, nobody can. Dirk will get into foul trouble if you stick him on the first two, but the Mavs are not the only team that will try to spare their best player a challenging defensive assignment.

[Findog]

WTF?

Because using footwork and anticipation to position yourself to take charges and cause turnovers doesnt matter?!!

Moron.

If you're trying to argue that Steve Nash is anything other than terrible on defense, then it's pointless to argue any further with you. Agree to disagree.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I can remember Tony Parker gettig a career high.

Who else?

Just off the top of my head I can remember Aaron Brooks, Rajon Rondo and Devin Harris from last season.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also I'm not sure if it's a career high but possibly Russell Westbrook.

[BUMP]

Monta Ellis had a career high against Nash which has since been broken

Off topic but look at Ellis' wikipedia page and scroll down to the last sentence under 2007-08 season highlights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monta_Ellis

:lol:lol:lol

[ElNono]

Nope. Dirk is a cut above Amare on Defense.

Agreed.


Dirk can't guard Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire. Point of fact is, nobody can. Dirk will get into foul trouble if you stick him on the first two, but the Mavs are not the only team that will try to spare their best player a challenging defensive assignment.

Dirk can't guard Matt freaking Barnes. That guy got a name and a juicy contract by just posterizing Dirk in Dallas.

[Amaso]

Parker is our 3rd best player if you consider the defensive side. Of course you are a mav fan, what would you know about Defense. I'll let it go this time

Parker as the 3rd best player? You must me out your damn mind son. He's probably the Spurs best player in this point of his career. You can't actually believe Ginobli is any better than Parker at defense.

[in2deep]

Nope. Dirk is a cut above Amare on Defense.


that don't mean shit. Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense

[BUMP]

The stupidity in this thread is so high it might cause me to faint

0pgNLUhH4RQ

[in2deep]

Parker as the 3rd best player? You must me out your damn mind son. He's probably the Spurs best player in this point of his career. You can't actually believe Ginobli is any better than Parker at defense.

Manu is now the team's #2 defender behind Duncan. We'll have to wait and see how RJ responds.

[anakha]

You can't actually believe Ginobli is any better than Parker at defense.

:stirpot:

[Findog]

that don't mean shit. Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense

Bonner is a spare. Mediocre defense, below-average offense.

Dirk is an elite offensive player and an average defender. It makes a world of difference in terms of his overall effectiveness.

Gawd, do they have schools in San Antonio?

[in2deep]

Bonner is a spare. Mediocre defense, below-average offense.

Dirk is an elite offensive player and an average defender. It makes a world of difference in terms of his overall effectiveness.

Gawd, do they have schools in San Antonio?

mediocre [mee-dee-oak-er, mee-dee-ok-rit-ee]
Adjective
not very high quality; average or second rate

:lol at talking about schools. Looks like someone needs to go back to Dallas great schools

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Career highs set against Nash last season:

Devin Harris
Rajon Rondo
Mo Williams

Career highs set against Nash this season that were broken later on in the season or playoffs:

Aaron Brooks
Russell Westbrook
JJ Barea

Players who didn't have career highs against Nash last year but did have season highs:

Steve Blake
Brevin Knight



The fact all three players who set career highs against Nash are in the Eastern conference is even worse. Simple odds say you're more likely to set a career high against someone you play four times a year as oppose to someone you play twice a year. Nash's D is so bad simple probability is irrelevant.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Parker as the 3rd best player?You can't actually believe Ginobli is any better than Parker at defense.


When healthy, Ginobili is an above average, underrated defender. Parker is average at best.

[Findog]

mediocre [mee-dee-oak-er, mee-dee-ok-rit-ee]
Adjective
not very high quality; average or second rate

:lol at talking about schools. Looks like someone needs to go back to Dallas great schools

If you have trouble understanding why Dirk is a better player than Matt Bonner, I can't help you.

[in2deep]

If you have trouble understanding why Dirk is a better player than Matt Bonner, I can't help you.

If you are having trouble understanding that I said Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense, I can't help you.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Has a player on the team playing Dallas ever said during a timeout, "Just give the ball to whoever Dirk is guarding!"?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you are having trouble understanding that I said Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense, I can't help you.


If that's what you said then I personally agree. The amount of offensive rebounds Amare gives up is insane.

[Muser]

If you are having trouble understanding that I said Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense, I can't help you.


No he's really not, at least Amare can go on a big block night. Bonner just stands there like a fuckstick.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But hey, giving up 47 points to Devin Harris doesn't matter when you take 2-3 charges a game :rolleyes

[Ghazi]

Has a player on the team playing Dallas ever said during a timeout, "Just give the ball to whoever Dirk is guarding!"?

Interesting that you mention this, because I don't really recall many moments from the regular season where Dirk's man was lighting him up... maybe its just my memory though. Nenad Kristic of OKC is one I remember though :lol.... Charlie V had a few good games against the Mavs as well.

[Findog]

If you are having trouble understanding that I said Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense, I can't help you.

I actually don't care what you say. I don't recall asking for your opinion and nothing you've posted is enlightening or makes me want to read more.

[BUMP]

If you are having trouble understanding that I said Bonner is a cut above Amare on Defense, I can't help you.

If Bonner is a cut above anybody on defense that person doesnt belong anywhere near the game of basketball

[monosylab1k]

5PDuqk_DSMw

[dickface]

Not that what John Hollinger says is gospel, but the guy watches basically every minute of every player in the NBA. Which Spurs fans can't say they do with Dirk, and vice versa with Mavs fans & Bonner. And here's what Hollinger says about each:


Nowitzki has improved greatly as a defender in recent seasons and is now capable of playing quality post defense or stepping out on the perimeter to help against the pick-and-roll. His lateral movement remains suspect and gets him in trouble against quick forwards at times, but he has a nice strip move he uses on opposing post players, he's an excellent defensive rebounder (12th at his position in defensive rebound rate), and he blocked shots at an above-average rate for a power forward.


The biggest obstacles to more minutes for Bonner are his defensive limitations. He's 6-10 but doesn't elevate and isn't particularly mobile, so it's tough to find acceptable matchups for him. Additionally, he doesn't provide much in the way of help-side defense or shot blocking. He is physical, however, and does a decent job on the glass.

[dickface]

I can't even say how many times I've seen Dirk use that strip move to knock the ball out of his opponent's hands & out of bounds. It doesn't count as anything in the stat sheet, but it basically saves 2 points every time he does it, and he usually gets that strip a few times every game.

[Findog]

I can't even say how many times I've seen Dirk use that strip move to knock the ball out of his opponent's hands & out of bounds. It doesn't count as anything in the stat sheet, but it basically saves 2 points every time he does it, and he usually gets that strip a few times every game.

According to Hollinger, Dirk was fifth in the league in swipe efficiency last year. He's money with the swipe.

[duncan228]

mono sighting!

[z0sa]

Um, he averages a block a game, either way it doesn't even matter. Blocking a lot of shots has a lot more to do with good athleticism than good defense.



:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

and some people wonder why they get labeled by what team they root for.

Not only that, you'd think that someone who supposedly likes Duncan would know the exact opposite is true.

then again, you are a suns fan.

[dickface]

Blocking shots is mostly good timing and not athleticism, but lots of blocked shots isn't necessarily a sign of a good defender. There's tons of really shitty defenders who still can block shots. Amare for example. And I think Birdman's defense is incredibly overrated just because he gets highlight reel blocks. Overall he's an average defender at best. Lots of times going for blocks means you're taking risks by putting yourself out of position.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

and some people wonder why they get labeled by what team they root for.

Not only that, you'd think that someone who supposedly likes Duncan would know the exact opposite is true.

then again, you are a suns fan.


The Spurs are near the bottom of the league in blocks every year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Last season:

Suns - 420 blocks
Spurs - 329 blocks

Good call z0sa that blocks = good defense.

[dickface]

Last season:

Suns - 420 blocks
Spurs - 329 blocks

Good call z0sa that blocks = good defense.

:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not only that, you'd think that someone who supposedly likes Duncan would know the exact opposite is true.



I never said blocks = bad defense, I said blocks don't = good defense, big difference.

[z0sa]

Last season:

Suns - 420 blocks
Spurs - 329 blocks

Good call z0sa that blocks = good defense.

Blocks = more about good defense than athleticism.
Not blocks = good defense.

intelligence not your strong point?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Blocks = more about good defense than athleticism.
Not blocks = good defense.

intelligence not your strong point?


huh? You should re-read my post. I never said no blocks = good defense, and I said blocks were more about athleticism than defense.

[z0sa]

I never said blocks = bad defense, I said blocks don't = good defense, big difference.


Blocking a lot of shots has a lot more to do with good athleticism than good defense.

you can't go both ways.

Either any dumbass who can jump high and run fast can block shots all night, or the reality: averaging blocks favors timing and positioning far more than athleticism.

Which is why i mention Tim. He has NEVER used athleticism to block shots. I mean, we're talking maybe a handful. For the past 7 years he hasn't jumped higher than a phone book to block a shot.

[dickface]

intelligence not your strong point?

apparently it isn't yours since you're completely missing the point of everything being discussed here.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

you can't go both ways.

Either any dumbass who can jump high can block shots all night, or the reality: averaging blocks favors timing and positioning far more than athleticism.

How do those two posts contradict each other? God dam you're stupid.

[dickface]

you can't go both ways.

Either any dumbass who can jump high can block shots all night, or the reality: averaging blocks favors timing and positioning far more than athleticism.

Sure it can go both ways.

Chris Andersen = any dumbass who can jump high
Tim Duncan = good timing & positioning

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sure it can go both ways.

Chris Andersen = any dumbass who can jump high
Tim Duncan = good timing & positioning

:lmao just about to post this.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

In 2007-2008 the Suns were 2nd in the NBA in blocks. It must have been due to the great positioning and timing that team had on defense.

That same season, the Spurs were 24th in the NBA in blocks. That's cause of the crappy position and and timing they have on defense.

[z0sa]

Chris Andersen = any dumbass who can jump high
Tim Duncan = good timing & positioning

anderson has impeccable timing and positioning. They are required to block shots. Being an high flying athlete is not.

[dickface]

In fact, there's way more shot blockers in the "dumbass who can jump high" category than in the "good timing" category. Most shotblockers these days are of the "dumbass who can jump high" variety. Birdman, Josh Smith, Tyrus Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, etc.

[dickface]

anderson has impeccable timing and positioning.

:lmao that explains why he goes flying by Dirk at the slightest pump fake.

[dickface]

There's very few big men who can hold their ground while still being effective shot blockers. Tim Duncan is of course the Jedi Master of this. There's a few others that are good at this too, but it's really a lost art these days in the NBA.

Most shot blockers these days rely almost solely on their athletic ability and give up everything in terms of position because they all want to make it onto SportsCenter. That's why the majority of them are in reality, average to below average defenders.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

impeccable timing and positioning. They are required to block shots.


So you're saying Amare Stoudemire had good positioning and timing during the 2007-2008 season when he averaged 2.1 blocks a game?

[z0sa]

In 2007-2008 the Suns were 2nd in the NBA in blocks. It must have been due to the great positioning and timing that team had on defense.

That same season, the Spurs were 24th in the NBA in blocks. That's cause of the crappy position and and timing they have on defense.


Spurs have less possessions, on both ends, obviously. Don't use common sense or anything.

Second, I never said athleticism doesn't play a factor.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Second, I never said athleticism doesn't play a factor.

You can't have it both ways.

[sonic21]

when bigs block a lot of shots, it usually means the rest of your team is playing poor defense (especially perimeter player)

[z0sa]

In fact, there's way more shot blockers in the "dumbass who can jump high" category than in the "good timing" category. Most shotblockers these days are of the "dumbass who can jump high" variety. Birdman, Josh Smith, Tyrus Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, etc.

So what universe do you live in, where timing and good positioning are not required physical attributes of blocking a shot? do they use telekinesis to swat the ball? Not their hands and sense of timing/position on the floor or anything, you know, the only way a person can physically block a shot.

Without fouling or cheating, i mean i guess you could grab their arm right as they shoot, or punch the ball out of the basket everytime or something. But otherwise, timing/positioning is the only way a human can physically pull off a block.

[z0sa]

You can't have it both ways.

you said it matters "a lot" more. That's laughable.

[dickface]

So what universe do you live in, where timing and good positioning are not required physical attributes of blocking a shot?

good positioning to block a shot isn't always good positioning to play actual defense.

Again, when Dirk pump fakes and Chris Andersen goes flying up in the air giving Dirk a wide open jumper or lane to the basket, is he playing good defense? Did he had good position?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Spurs have less possessions, on both ends, obviously. Don't use common sense or anything.


The 82 Spurs games in 2007-2008 averaged to have 88.8 possessions. That same season, the average Suns game had 96.7 possessions.

88.8/96.7 < 337/518, meaning the Suns averaged more blocks per possession than SA.

There is no way to deny that the Suns were a better shot blocking team than SA in 2007-2008.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

when bigs block a lot of shots, it usually means the rest of your team is playing poor defense (especially perimeter player)


Not necessarily, but this is the case A LOT of the time.

[dickface]

There is no way to deny that the Suns were a better shot blocking team than SA in 2007-2008.

Suns Defense > Spurs Defense!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

you said it matters "a lot" more. That's laughable.


Create a poll about what matters more.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Suns Defense > Spurs Defense!


In 2006-2007, Clippers best defense in the NBA!!!!

[z0sa]

The 82 Spurs games in 2007-2008 averaged to have 88.8 possessions. That same season, the average Suns game had 96.7 possessions.

88.8/96.7 < 337/518, meaning the Suns averaged more blocks per possession than SA.

There is no way to deny that the Suns were a better shot blocking team than SA in 2007-2008.


Blocks = more about good defense than athleticism.
Not blocks = good defense.

intelligence not your strong point?

[dickface]

to block shots while still playing defense, timing is essential.

if you don't care about defense and just want to block a shot, any dumbass who can jump high will do.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

^wtf are you trying to say z0sa?

[dickface]

^wtf are you trying to say z0sa?

He has no clue at this point.

[z0sa]

Create a poll about what matters more.

i don't have time for other people's opinions. do your own dirty work.

[dickface]

i don't have time for other people's opinions.

I'm sure if I was wrong all the time, I wouldn't want to read other people's opinions either.

[z0sa]

^wtf are you trying to say z0sa?

that any dumbass who can jump high, can't block shots. I know you honestly believe the suns never played defense because you don't know shit, but the reality is, the defensive practices every team goes through would put amare and others in the right position - should they wish. The problem is, there were no repecussions for not being in the right position. Factor in more possessions and my point stands. That's why I called you a sunfan (and I was even predicting a suns/spurs retort - i'm more than aware that the spurs arent a great shot blocking team). You're all wrapped up in who can jump the highest and run the fastest and score the quickest. A good shotblocker alters shots all the time as well. Don't see Amare doing that.

That's why i never said athleticism ISN'T a factor - a high flying athlete is way better fit to block shots than a timmy for example, of course. I'm not denying that. The problem is exactly what you said - that athleticism is a lot more than important than timing and positioning. Timing and positioning must be right for a block to even have any chance of occurring.

And about those "dumbasses" someone mentioned - they might be low in overall BBiq, but they've got timing and positioning.

[dickface]

And about those "dumbasses" someone mentioned - they might be low in overall BBiq, but they've got timing and positioning.

And the majority of them are still shitty defensive players.

[ElNono]

I can't even say how many times I've seen Dirk use that strip move to knock the ball out of his opponent's hands & out of bounds. It doesn't count as anything in the stat sheet, but it basically saves 2 points every time he does it, and he usually gets that strip a few times every game.

That's a fucking foul every time!!! Goddamit I scream to the TV every time he gets away with that shit. :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

A good shotblocker alters shots all the time as well. Don't see Amare doing that.


No, a good defender alters shots all the time. A good shot blocker is someone that blocks a lot of shots.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's why I called you a sunfan (and I was even predicting a suns/spurs retort - i'm more than aware that the spurs arent a great shot blocking team). You're all wrapped up in who can jump the highest and run the fastest and score the quickest.


A stereotypical "Sunfan" would be saying "The Suns defense is really good, they block a lot of shots." How am I wrapped up in who can jump the highest?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

that any dumbass who can jump high, can't block shots. I know you honestly believe the suns never played defense because you don't know shit, but the reality is, the defensive practices every team goes through would put amare and others in the right position - should they wish. The problem is, there were no repecussions for not being in the right position. Factor in more possessions and my point stands.

D'antoni didn't have the team practice defense at all, and please don't tell me you know otherwise. The reason Nash signed with the team in the first place was because of the light practices that stressed offense. This later resulted with Grant Hill signing with Phoenix.

And I've already proven that the "possessions" argument is simply wrong, the Suns the past two seasons have averaged more blocks per possession than San Antonio, you can't use an argument when it has statistically been proven wrong.

[MWILL]

Speaking of being the old Suns, I think Dallas is going to add Tim Thomas to the roster this week.

[Texas Chili Dog]

Speaking of being the old Suns, I think Dallas is going to add Tim Thomas to the roster this week.

I have seen this as well. My response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

[mavsfan1000]

So I guess we are letting Hollins go. Back to small ball.

[MWILL]

I have seen this as well. My response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc


That video was funny.

Tim will be the Mavs 10th or 11th man on the depth chart. I have no problems with that.

[Phillip]

There's very few big men who can hold their ground while still being effective shot blockers. Tim Duncan is of course the Jedi Master of this. There's a few others that are good at this too, but it's really a lost art these days in the NBA.

Tim Duncan's art of shot blocking these days consists of him using his hand to pull his opponent's hip down, so they don't get a high jump, giving him a better chance for the shot block. Sneaky, and most definitely a foul, but hides it very well, as all superstars find ways to hide fouls and violations that they commit.

[Culburn369]

Tim Duncan's art of shot blocking these days consists of him using his hand to pull his opponent's hip down, so they don't get a high jump, giving him a better chance for the shot block. Sneaky, and most definitely a foul, but hides it very well, as all superstars find ways to hide fouls and violations that they commit.

Phil/the goods/direct hit style.

[Henke]

I have seen this as well. My response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

:lol:lol:lol

:tu

[sribb43]

Another fuckin Suns player and the scrubiest of them all Jake Voskuhl.....