The Minutemen: Protecting Merica'

[Nbadan]

A stupid idea just got even stupider...


Three volunteers patrolling the border for illegal immigrants were being investigated after a man told authorities he was held against his will and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan.

<snip>

Carol Capas, a sheriff's office spokeswoman, said the 26-year-old Mexican man told agents he was physically restrained and forced to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped.

<more>

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050407/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers)

FSP Exclusive Photo:

http://edwardpig.typepad.com/abughraib2.jpg

Wha? White supremists among the minute men? Say it ain't so...


Minuteman organizer James Gilchrist defends white supremacists from Alan Colmes: "Why are you picking on them?"

Reacting to Fox News host Alan Colmes's reference to news reports that white supremacists may have joined the Minuteman Project's efforts to prevent illegal immigrants from entering the United States via the Mexican border, Minuteman organizer James Gilchrist condemned supremacists but contended that "there are supremacist groups out there of all races, colors and creeds" and accused Colmes of "picking on" the white supremacists. Gilchrist has acknowledged that "white supremacists want us to wage a full battle at the border," but has denied that he is a racist: "Some people have said I'm racist, and that's just not true. ... My son-in-law is a full-on Mexican, and my grandson is half-Mexican."

[exstatic]

These idiots are also tripping motion sensors, forcing agents to check on a false alarm. MENSA should be calling any day now. :rolleyes

[cqsallie]

On the surface, it sounds like a good idea: American citizen volunteers patrolling the border of Arizona and Mexico, calling into the official Border Patrol when illegal entry is observed. What could be wrong with that?
But, of course, a group such as this one is bound to attract the type of people who hopped on their horses and joined the Sheriff's posse in the old West, or who joined up with citizens of like mind to burn crosses on the lawns of - or to lynch - people of the "wrong color."
Obviously, something has to be done about illegal immigration, but what? And by whom? Would it be too farfetched to ask Congress to supply the money to hire the necessary number of trained border patrol officers? If we are so enmeshed in a war against terrorism, so damned afraid that terrorists can enter our country through unprotected borders - North and South, why aren't we just coughing up the cash to get the hundreds of agents we need?
Shortly after George W. took office, I received a paltry check from the government which was my share of the big tax cut. I would rather do without a three-figure check, if it would help pay for an additional guardian of our borders for half a week. The check certainly didn't get me far, and I suspect that the majority of my friends and neighbors were equally perplexed in regards to how best spend this small gift so that it would benefit the American economy. In the end, of course, we all piddled this tax cut check away, dribbling it out over months and making no impact whatsoever on the economy (Of course, the wealthiest among us, who received the largest cut, immediately put it in the bank or invested it, rather than using it for purchasing American-made products).
Well, I ramble. To return to the original topic, the so-called "War on Terrorism" is going nowhere and will go nowhere because it's highly touted by the Bush Administration, but woefully underfunded by the Bush Administration. There is also the pressure of the farm conglomerates who regularly hire illegal aliens on a seasonal basis. These entities have no interest in stopping the entry of undocumented workers. The fact that these people have no rights to the same pay, health insurance, unemployment benefits, Social Security benefits, isn't lost on these people.
Don't get me started on this subject! I get way too involved and angry, but I will certainly welcome other comments.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, I'm behind these guys one bit. The government has done jack fucking shit to close off those borders, and this is causing attention.

[Gerryatrics]

Minutemen cleared of holding illegal immigrant against his will (http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3183379&nav=HMO5YQvM)

http://kvoa.static.worldnow.com/images/3183379_BG1.jpg
The Cochise County Sheriffs Department investigates three volunteers with the Minuteman Project after an illegal immigrant claimed he was held against his will.

The incident was caught on videotape and this afternoon County officials decided not to press charges against the Minutemen volunteers.

Cameron Sawyer from Utah shot the video of Bryan Barton of California coming in contact with an illegal border crosser on Wed.

It's that illegal border crosser a 26 year old from Obregon who claims he was held against his will. Even though the video tape clearly shows the man getting food, water, and towards the end of the tape money. Sheriff's Spokeswoman Carol Capas says " he told our investigators he was physically held against his will."

Cochise County Sheriff's investigators Border patrol agents, Mexican Consulate and Co. Atty's office reviewed the tape. Capas says " the co. Atty. Said there was not a substantial case of someone being held against their will in this incident."

After finding no legal wrong doing what's drawing attention to the incident is Barton giving the 26 year old man a t-shirt. Like the one he was wearing. It reads: Bryan Barton caught me crossing the border and all I got was this lousy t-shirt. :rolleyes Cochise Co. Sheriff Larry Dever's reaction to the incident. " we don't have time nor the patience for anyone attempthing to turn this situation into a three ring circus. "

Chris Simcox one of the organizers of the Minuteman project credits the Minutemen for saving the illegal immigrants life. He says this shows they have compassion and aren't anti immigrant at all.

As for the t-shirt scene... he says Bryan Barton is running for congress in California and he has flair." :lmao

Those mean old racist, Bush loving, Blue Collar TV watching Nazi bastards are terrorizing those poor little illegal aliens with their "enforcing the laws" and "attempting to help secure the border" and "providing food and water as they await the Border Patrol" :depressed. Abu Ghraib! Abu Ghraib!!!

:lmao

[tsb2000]

Living in Arizona, all I can tell you is this entire thing is being terribly misrepresented in the media. Even our local media is guilty of it.

If our @#$@! governor would get with it and understand the definition of illegal, we wouldn't have needed prop 200, and California wouldn't have needed prop 187.

I heard a live interview with Barton today. He gave the illegal some water, food, $20, and posed with the illegal in the picture (with the t-shirt). There was no detaining him against his will. There's a tape of the entire exchange, which is why he wasn't charged with anything.

The rednecks and racists were sent home right after showing up. Sadly, the pictures of them are what the media are circulating.

fwiw :)

[MannyIsGod]

This is the kind of shit that annoys me with left side a lot of the time. I can't stand when they portray citizens taking control of situations as bad. It's the same damn thing with gun control. There are times when citizens want to protect this damn country because their government refuses to.

[desflood]

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

[CommanderMcBragg]

It's just a matter of time before somebody gets killed.
They don't have the training.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, it's only a matter of time before a terrorist smuggles something in through that swiss cheese of defense we call border patrol. The government needs to fix this shit, and these people are right in what they are doing to draw attention to it.

They are doing instead of just bitching. And that, in my eyes, is the best way to get what you want and what you need. Props to these guys for not sitting around and waiting for their so called elected representatives to actualy represent them properly.

[Clandestino]

it is a huge "neighborhood watch" imo...

[Useruser666]

It's just a matter of time before somebody gets killed.
They don't have the training.

There is a lot of ex military in this group.

[Clandestino]

how much training do you need to see an illegal crossing the border and calling the border patrol?

[ChumpDumper]

There's no incentive for the government officials to stop illegal immigration. Who would raise their children?

[CommanderMcBragg]

There is a lot of ex military in this group.

Being ex-military doesn't make you qualified to be a border patrol agent.

Are any of these fellows monitoring the Canadian border?

[Nbadan]

There's no incentive for the government officials to stop illegal immigration. Who would raise their children?

:lol Wait till the dry June Arizona heats sets in. These yahoos will go back to their air conditioned moble homes and watch NASCAR and play Nintendo all day again.

[Spurminator]

Being ex-military doesn't make you qualified to be a border patrol agent.

Neither does being a cactus in an empty desert. I prefer these guys.

[CommanderMcBragg]

Neither does being a cactus in an empty desert. I prefer these guys.

What the hell does a cactus have to do with anything? :rolleyes

I prefer trained border patrol agents but since Bush is going to give amnesty to illegal aliens, of all nationalities mind you, I don't see him pumping more money where it is needed. HERE AT HOME. But would rather spend billions on Iraq.

[Nbadan]

Chris Simcox one of the organizers of the Minuteman project credits the Minutemen for saving the illegal immigrants life. He says this shows they have compassion and aren't anti immigrant at all.

Yeah, this Chris Simcox guy is a real sweetheart.


Our third major foray into immigration came in late 2002 in response to reports from the border that indicated vigilante activity was on the rise. In a series of e-mails obtained by the Center, the vigilante nature of Ranch Rescue's activities (including alleged attacks on migrants) that year were detailed. Rob Krott, the chief foreign correspondent for Soldier of Fortune magazine and an accomplished mercenary, wrote to Ranch Rescue members outlining their mission's goals as to "observe and surveill border incursions" and "deter criminal trespass." Earlier in the year, Spencer had moved his entire operation to the Arizona border and started up American Border Patrol, a group that claimed it would use high-tech devices, including aircraft drones, to monitor border-crossers. In addition, Chris Simcox, another California transplant who had recently purchased the local Tombstone Tumbleweed newspaper, established a new militia called Civil Homeland Defense. Simcox held weapons training and ran patrols throughout the Arizona border region. In addition, Ranch Rescue was still patrolling ranches in the area, as well as in Texas, as were the Barnetts on almost every weekend. To cover these activities, the Report dispatched staff writer Bob Moser to Arizona for two weeks.

Moser found that not only was vigilantism exploding at the border, but it was also apparently becoming more violent - and race-based. Moser's interview with Simcox, for example, drew out a racial animus that at least partially explained his intense interest in apprehending border-crossers. Moser also discovered that there had been several highly suspicious shooting incidents in which border-crossers were murdered. In a sidebar, Moser documented a series of incidents where weapons were brandished or discharged by ranchers and others detaining border-crossers.

Ultimately, the Center's work on immigration paid off in the form of a lawsuit by our legal department. In May 2003, the Center, with the help of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund and the law firms of Ricardo de Anda and John Judge, sued Ranch Rescue, three of its members including leader Jack Foote, and Texas ranch owner Joseph Sutton. The suit alleged that individuals in the group had assaulted and falsely imprisoned six plaintiffs, illegal border crossers who were unfortunate enough to find themselves on Sutton's ranch while Ranch Rescue was conducting operations there. Our hope is that this suit will serve as a warning to ranchers throughout the Southwest that there will be a high price to pay for those who allow armed vigilantes to ply their trade on their ranch lands.

The latest episode in the rise of a hard-line anti-immigration movement began last fall, when Report staffers realized that an effort to take control of the board of the Sierra Club by immigration restrictionists was under way. In October, based on our research, I sent a lengthy letter to Club President Larry Fahn warning of a "hostile takeover attempt" by anti-immigration forces allied with Tanton and others. The Center also decided to run co-founder Morris Dees for the Club's board as a way of bringing additional attention to the purported takeover attempt from the national media. At this writing, it appears likely that the attempt to take over the Club will lose. But that will not be known until late April, when the Club is expected to officially announce the results of its hotly contested board elections.

aila.com (http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=9,4637,5027&pf=true)

[Spurminator]

I prefer trained border patrol agents

Well, duh.

Therein lies the problem, though. There aren't enough.

[CommanderMcBragg]

Well, duh.

Therein lies the problem, though. There aren't enough.

Well, duh, tell it to Dubya.

[Useruser666]

Dan have you ever been near the border with Mexico? Have you ever lived near it? You sure like to sterotype people.

[Spurminator]

Well, duh, tell it to Dubya.

What do you think the Minutemen are doing?

I'd say this is more effective than a letter to the State Representative or the White House, wouldn't you? Instead of partisan complaining for the sake of complaining, which seems to be your solution.

[CommanderMcBragg]

What do you think the Minutemen are doing?

I'd say this is more effective than a letter to the State Representative or the White House, wouldn't you? Instead of partisan complaining for the sake of complaining, which seems to be your solution.

Your complaining about nothing isn't a solution either. And I wasn't complaining just stating my opinion. :rolleyes

Yeah, I feel a lot safer at night now that the Minutemen are on patrol. :rolleyes

[Spurminator]

I'm not complaining. I'm approving of what the Minutemen are trying to do, provided they act in a legal manner. I prefer it to the other REAL option, which involves an empty desert where immigrants can cross freely.

It's not like Bush is going to stack the desert with trained patrolmen if the Minutemen would only get out of the way. If you want to debate closed borders vs. open borders, that itself is another issue.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, this has been a problem for a very long time, and Clinton didn't do jack shit. This isn't a partisan issue, unless you want to say it's both of their faults.

The situation needs fixing, these guys are drawing attention to it. However, because some stupid liberal talking head denounces it, you automaticly jump all over it and find some way to spin it as Bush's fault.

Give me a fucking break. I'm tired of all the spin from people like Hannity and Michael Moore; why do you have to do it too?

[CommanderMcBragg]

You know, this has been a problem for a very long time, and Clinton didn't do jack shit. This isn't a partisan issue, unless you want to say it's both of their faults.

The situation needs fixing, these guys are drawing attention to it. However, because some stupid liberal talking head denounces it, you automaticly jump all over it and find some way to spin it as Bush's fault.

Give me a fucking break. I'm tired of all the spin from people like Hannity and Michael Moore; why do you have to do it too?

I'm not saying it is Bush's fault what I'm saying is we are spending more money on Iraq than on our own borders.
Give me a freakin' break.
I've read some of your posts and you are one to talk.
I agree that our borders need more protection but I don't think having civilians do it is the way to go.
How is that spinning anything?

[MannyIsGod]

It's not a long term solution, everyone knows that it's not the right way to go. It's more of a symbolic act in order to gain attention and force politicians hands. So why act as if it's something more?

The spin comes in where you bring Bush's name into it to begin with, thereby associating blame. Both parties (I should say the one party) carry the blame for the situation.

[MannyIsGod]

I prefer trained border patrol agents but since Bush is going to give amnesty to illegal aliens, of all nationalities mind you, I don't see him pumping more money where it is needed

You're right, I don't know why it looks like your blaming Bush. :blah

[Useruser666]

Many border ranchers already have there own "laws" and "patrols". This is different because it's goal is to draw attention to the area and what's going on there.

[CommanderMcBragg]

You're right, I don't know why it looks like your blaming Bush. :blah

I'm not BLAMING Bush. I'm saying that his priorities are wrong.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Not that I don't think there is a problem with illegal immigration, but this seems like a bunch of retired necks with nothing better to do between deer and large mouth bass seasons.

[Spurminator]

And?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I think it's great what they're doing. It's more of a symbolic "wake the fuck up America, and wake the fuck up Congress/political leaders."

I've got no problem with what they're doing. Like Manny, I feel that our next 9/11 will come about thanks to porous US-Mexico borders that allow terrorists to get in.

Unfortunately, it will take something like that before all the assholes in D.C. do something about it.

[Useruser666]

Stereotyping

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Why aren't there minutmen protecting the Canadian border?
And I thought the terrorists of 9/11 came right on in the US and didn't even have to cross illegally?
Many european illegals enter into the US everyday as well.

Stereotyping indeed.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

They'll probably start focusing more on Canada when

1) Canada stops helping on its side of the border
2) Canada issues a guide to crossing the border for illegal aliens

Why the fuck does everything have to be about stereotypes and PC bullshit? People for one are coming into our country illegally. For another, we have stated intelligence from AQ ops/documents profiling the ease of crossing the US-Mexico border.

I'd be stereotyping if I said if we paid more attention to Muslims entering the country and flying together on flights, we would have had a better shot at stopping 9/11 from happening, but I'd be right.

I love the hypocrisy though. Police officers use profiling every fucking day, even on white people (every time a serial killer comes around, they're white male, in their 30s, for example).

But when we've got people whose stated goal is the destruction of the US, we can't do anything to prevent it because of their skin color.

THAT'S STEREOTYPING.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

They'll probably start focusing more on Canada when

1) Canada stops helping on its side of the border
2) Canada issues a guide to crossing the border for illegal aliens

Why the fuck does everything have to be about stereotypes and PC bullshit? People for one are coming into our country illegally. For another, we have stated intelligence from AQ ops/documents profiling the ease of crossing the US-Mexico border.

I'd be stereotyping if I said if we paid more attention to Muslims entering the country and flying together on flights, we would have had a better shot at stopping 9/11 from happening, but I'd be right.

I love the hypocrisy though. Police officers use profiling every fucking day, even on white people (every time a serial killer comes around, they're white male, in their 30s, for example).

But when we've got people whose stated goal is the destruction of the US, we can't do anything to prevent it because of their skin color.

THAT'S STEREOTYPING.

Fine, you cut my grass then.

Republicans want cheap labor for GOP businessmen... increased profits and bigger CEO salaries....

Actually Bush is trying to win their vote.
Why do you think he dont give a shit? Has he said anything in months about this issue?
Bush wants them here. They are potential voters. He loves them.
It's a trade, American job for a vote for Bush.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Republicans want cheap labor for GOP businessmen..

See, this is bullshit. Democratic "big business" people are doing the same shit. Knock off the hypocrisy, and I might listen to the rest of your argument.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

See, this is bullshit. Democratic "big business" people are doing the same shit. Knock off the hypocrisy, and I might listen to the rest of your argument.

I see I've hit a nerve. :lol

Hypocrisy? You mean like being "for life" yet starting a war that has killed thousands? Being "for life" yet for the death penalty?
Being "for the American soldier" yet cutting veterans benefits?

Knock off YOUR hypocrisy and get back to me.

[Spurminator]

Fine, you cut my grass then.

Cut your own.

[MannyIsGod]

Why aren't there minutmen protecting the Canadian border?


The idea, according to project organizers, is partly to draw attention to problems on the Arizona-Mexico border, considered the most vulnerable stretch of the 2,000-mile southern border. Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at Arizona.


And I thought the terrorists of 9/11 came right on in the US and didn't even have to cross illegally?
Many european illegals enter into the US everyday as well.

So by your logic they shouldn't draw attention to this situation and/or it shoudln't be fixed because there are other ways for illegals to get into this country? Those other problems need to be addressed at all, but that doesn't make this situation any less important.

Here's a novel idea Johnny. Form your opinions based upon the facts, don't try to manipulate the facts to back up your opinions. Don't be afraid to side with conservatives. Contrary to what you might read, they don't all have the plauge.

[MannyIsGod]

Cut your own.

:lmao

I was going to say the same damn thing.

[Spurminator]

In summary, Johnny believes immigration is a problem... but is against the Minutemen because they're white rednecks only doing this in Arizona and keeping Mexicans from entering the country to mow his lawn. And, of course, Bush and Republicans are dummies.

Am I on target?

[JohnnyMarzetti]

So by your logic they shouldn't draw attention to this situation and/or it shoudln't be fixed because there are other ways for illegals to get into this country? Those other problems need to be addressed at all, but that doesn't make this situation any less important.

Here's a novel idea Johnny. Form your opinions based upon the facts, don't try to manipulate the facts to back up your opinions. Don't be afraid to side with conservatives. Contrary to what you might read, they don't all have the plauge.

What the hell is a plauge? Did you mean plague? Get your facts straight first then try again.
Facts? Give me a break. Fact is that the majority of illegals are honest, hard working people who are just trying to do better for their families. I don't fault them for that. Yes, I agree that ALL people should be documented when they enter this country.
But conservatives gave Bush his "mandate" so live with it and if you don't like then be wiser with your vote next time.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

In summary, Johnny believes immigration is a problem... but is against the Minutemen because they're white rednecks only doing this in Arizona and keeping Mexicans from entering the country to mow his lawn. And, of course, Bush and Republicans are dummies.

Am I on target?

Actually Wal-Mart is the one hiring illegals. And again they are NOT all Mexicans. And I'm the one who doesn't know the facts? :rolleyes

[Spurminator]

:lmao

You're so transparent! Your beef with the Minutemen is that they're conservatives. If they were college students and professors with clever signs, you'd be all over their nuts.


But conservatives gave Bush his "mandate" so live with it and if you don't like then be wiser with your vote next time.

So every social issue should be addressed at the voting booth only? That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But its symptomatic of someone who views all issues as game pieces in a Democrats vs. Republicans sporting event of some kind.

Sit back and deal with it? Laughable. Those of us who give a shit about this country would never do such a thing. To us, it's not about how it affects the next election.


And again they are NOT all Mexicans.

You're the one that made the lawn mowing comment, not me. I never said they were.

[MannyIsGod]

What the hell is a plauge? Did you mean plague? Get your facts straight first then try again.


Congrats on being able to point out a typo. Maybe the next step in your intellectual development will be actual origional thought formation. I'm not going to hold my breath.


Facts? Give me a break. Fact is that the majority of illegals are honest, hard working people who are just trying to do better for their families. I don't fault them for that.

Who here is? My grandfather was an illegal many times over before he brought my mother and her brothers and sisters over legaly. He's possibly the possesor of the greatest work ethic I have ever known.

That doesn't change the fact that in a post 9/11 world illegal immigration needs to be tackled completely, and this is an effort to do that. Furthermore, this is also an effort to control smuggling.

I want open immigration, but I want it DOCUMENTED.



Yes, I agree that ALL people should be documented when they enter this country.


So your opposition to this is based on exactly what?



But conservatives gave Bush his "mandate" so live with it and if you don't like then be wiser with your vote next time.

I guarntee you I made a much harder effort to remove Bush from office. You might want to consider that before lecturing me on that.

[Duff McCartney]

Well, it's only a matter of time before a terrorist smuggles something in through that swiss cheese of defense we call border patrol. The government needs to fix this shit, and these people are right in what they are doing to draw attention to it.

You would figure if terrorists were really smart, they'd have figured that out a long time ago. But no....they aren't, and they won't ever figure it out.

[MannyIsGod]

You would figure if terrorists were really smart, they'd have figured that out a long time ago. But no....they aren't, and they won't ever figure it out.

Considering terrorist cells can lie dormant for years, who's to say they haven't?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I see I've hit a nerve.

No nerves hit, you're just a fucking hypocrit. The only difference between democratic businessmen and republican businessmen is which party they donate to. They all use the same tax loop holes, they all cheat for profit wherever they can, they all hire illegals.

You lose your credibility, Johnny, when you posit that the only ones doing it are Republican big business.



Hypocrisy? You mean like being "for life" yet starting a war that has killed thousands?

Hypocrisy is criticizing the US for taking out a man who had killed HUNDREDS of thousands.



Being "for life" yet for the death penalty?

Golden rule. Don't take someone's life, and you don't have to worry about getting yours taken.

You want to talk about the right to life? The scum on death row took away someone else's right to life, when they do that they cease to be human - they're a monster. They get what they deserve.



Being "for the American soldier" yet cutting veterans benefits?

Where do you see this at? Michael Moore talking points memo? Shit, my sister is in the Army, involved on the medical side heavily, and if anything the momentum for taking care of veterans is picking up, not being cut.

Look, I'm really more of a libertarian than anything else. I have my opinions on a lot of things. But in reality the political structure in this country is set up as black or white, republican or democrat.

I go with the lesser of two evils, and from where I sit as a student of history the liberals haven't given this country anything in the last 20 years except:

Political correctness, lawsuit abuse, and the pathetic mindset that when something goes wrong in your life, blame someone else and sue them (lack of personal responsibility). And when all else fails, play the race card.

Given that track record, I think I'll go with the alternative, thank you very much.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You would figure if terrorists were really smart, they'd have figured that out a long time ago.

You're an idiot. Do you think Osama is gonna go blow up a movie theater, say "ha ha, we came from Mexico", and call it a day?

The reason we haven't been attacked yet is because AQ is patient and they're going to wait until they can go for the jugular (with WMD).

The sad part is dipshits like you who aren't educated outside of the nightly news won't figure it out until after it happens. Then you'll go and figure out which republican politician to blame it on, despite the democrats in D.C. sharing equal culpability in the complacency of defending our borders.

[ididnotnothat]

I've been sort of following this, but I have to come down on the side of caution, and go with the instincts of the many dozens of cops I have known: keep the civilians the hell out of it. They'll only 1)get hurt, 2)get a suspect hurt but most important 3) get a cop hurt.

[Useruser666]

Stereotyping

Clarification: I was implying that Johnny"Chavez"Marzetti was doing the stereotyping.

And has anyone here actually lived near the border for any period of time?

[MannyIsGod]

I was born 7 miles from the border, so the answer to that is yes.

[Guru of Nothing]

If I were a terrorist, what goes on at American borders would bother me, like not at all.

Seriously, what needs to happen (with regards to the Mexican border), is we need to come up with a satisfactory mechanism that allows manual laborers to cross our borders to work jobs no one else is willing to work, given the low pay.

People demand inexpensive goods.

Give the people what they want.

[mookie2001]

i support the minutemen
bush is keeping the borders wide open to keep the minimum wage down and increase the gap between the rich and the poor
and yes if youve got a strong back we can use you
but americans have strong backs too

[mookie2001]

get a cop hurt.

sweet

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

keep the minimum wage down and increase the gap between the rich and the poor

Yeah, it's all a plot against the poor folk.

[mookie2001]

thats what the wide open borders are accomplishing
nothing else

[mookie2001]

this disscusion between us, if im correct, you, a conservative and me, a liberal, should be the other way around, me defending the illegals and you scoffing them
since this is the bush presidency and he does things a little backwards, we find ourselves on the otherside of things

[The Ressurrected One]

If you're here illegally, you should be deported. Period.

You're draining the resources of American Citizens and those who have immigrated LEGALLY.

[JoeChalupa]

Selective deportation is a problem. If you have connections you will be allowed to stay if not..you'll be deported.

[The Ressurrected One]

Selective deportation is a problem. If you have connections you will be allowed to stay if not..you'll be deported.
I'm for deporting them all...and, in my mind, so should all LEGAL immigrants.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Look, I don't like illegal aliens being here. I think if you come legally, you're more than welcome to stay.

I also think there should be some kind of worker's permit for those wanting to come over and do the jobs others seem to scoff at.

I think you're a retard anytime you try and bring this around to blaming Bush. Every president in recent history has been hands off with the illegal alien situation in order not to alienate the hispanic vote. Right or wrong, it won't change no matter what side of the aisle the president comes from.

[JoeChalupa]

I concur. Maybe the Statue of Liberty needs to have "legally" inserted?

[The Ressurrected One]

I concur. Maybe the Statue of Liberty needs to have "legally" inserted?
Well, since you brought it up...most of the people for whom that statue was erected, passed her beacon flame and welcoming message on their way to LEGAL immigration ports of entry.

So, yeah, maybe the word "legally" should be inserted somewhere.

[JoeChalupa]

There were also plenty who did come in illegally as well.
My problem is that "Mexican" has become associated with "illegal alien" and while the majority may be it seems that it lessens the fact that there are thousands, if not millions of illegals who have come from other countries as well, including European countries.

[The Ressurrected One]

There were also plenty who did come in illegally as well.
My problem is that "Mexican" has become associated with "illegal alien" and while the majority may be it seems that it lessens the fact that there are thousands, if not millions of illegals who have come from other countries as well, including European countries.
My outrage is color-blind. Send them all packing.

[JoeChalupa]

That is fair to me.

[MannyIsGod]

Joe, illegal's are made up by and large by hispanic people. I don't think millions of Euro illegals ever came, or are coming here.

[The Ressurrected One]

That does raise the legitimate question I know has probably been asked and answered but, for which I cannot recall the most recent justifications.

Why do illegal immigrants not seek to enter the country legally?

[MannyIsGod]

Oh dude, that's an easy one. The time frame, the likelyhood of being turned away, and the ease of crossing the border.

[The Ressurrected One]

Oh dude, that's an easy one. The time frame, the likelyhood of being turned away, and the ease of crossing the border.
In other words, there are no legitimate reasons for entering this country illegally?

So, why tolerate it?

[MannyIsGod]

exactly.

[JoeChalupa]

That does raise the legitimate question I know has probably been asked and answered but, for which I cannot recall the most recent justifications.

Why do illegal immigrants not seek to enter the country legally?

I've asked myself that question as well.

And I do agree that the majority of illegals come from south of the border but I did find some stats that show over 1 million are from Europe.
Just saying that "illega alien" = "Mexican"....
just like "liberal" = "unpatriotic and unreligious" to many. :rolleyes

[The Ressurrected One]

I've asked myself that question as well.
Well then, until there is a justifiable reason, there should be no defending illegal aliens.

[JoeChalupa]

I guess it is just my nature. I hate it when that happens.

[The Ressurrected One]

I guess it is just my nature. I hate it when that happens.
Flippancy...that's cogent.

[JoeChalupa]

Huh? Talk down to me man.

[The Ressurrected One]

Huh? Talk down to me man.
I refuse.

[Nbadan]

And this racist business? Gimme a break.

:rolleyes

Yeah, lets all just put out of our heads this silly notion that Chris Simcox, a founder of the MM is a well-known racists in the California hispanic community, as well as a possible pedophile.