What is more important to shot blocking?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

poll coming. Discuss.

[dickface]

good shot blocking where you still hold solid defensive ground is all about timing.

highlight reel shot blocking that gets you nicknames like "Birdman" is all about athleticism because you don't actually care about your positioning or defensive ground.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

BUMP


I'm not talking about good shot blocking or highlight reel shot blocking, I'm talking about what gets you more blocked shots in the stat column. The question is simple, "Does athleticism or good positioning contribute more to a player's ability to block (not alter) shots?"

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So the people voting positioning and timing, you're saying when the Clippers led the NBA in blocks in 2006-2007 it was because of great positioning and timing?

[turiaf for president]

you can be the greatest athlete in the world but if you dont have the position or time it right, you're going to get called for a foul every time.

[Kai]

Stupid-ass players with freak athleticism will always have more blocks than players with lesser physical gifts but can time things right.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

you can be the greatest athlete in the world but if you dont have the position or time it right, you're going to get called for a foul every time.


So you'd say the 2006-2007 LA Clippers, a team that led the NBA in blocks, had a great team defense full of players that were never out of position?

[JamStone]

Timing more so than athleticism. There are plenty of athletic bigs that don't shot block at a good rate.

But more important than the two choices is size and length. Just as important as the two choices is effort.

[gaKNOW!blee]

It's all about not jumping until the opponent jumps.

I would say timing should be a choice by itself.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There are plenty of athletic bigs that don't shot block at a good rate.


There are tons of great defenders like Kurt Thomas with a lack of athleticism that prevents them from blocking tons of shots.

[BUMP]

athleticism. easy

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And touche Jamstone, size and strength is by far the most important the more I think about it.

[Guajalote]

I think timing is the most important thing. Players like David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan were masters at timing the block just after the release.

However, at the risk of sounding like a homer, DRob was a rare combination of both which I think is why he was so devastating on defense. I know I sound like I'm wishy washy, but consider this... DRob had the ability to jump as high as he wanted and was as agile as he needed to be to get to where he could make the block. And, I saw time after time where David mis-timed the jump/was faked out and was still able to get the block from sheer athleticism. But without the timing to be able to stop the forward progress of the ball and tap it to a teammate, he would've been in foul trouble much more often. Timing the block just after the release was key. So many guys try swatting at the ball or making a broad arc and get called for the foul. David was a master at timing the block to come just after release.

Great question.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This question is pointless the more I think about it, length size and strength are by far the most important.

[23LeBronJames23]

You can be athletic but you will never block shots if your doin it the wrong time!

[turiaf for president]

So you'd say the 2006-2007 LA Clippers, a team that led the NBA in blocks, had a great team defense full of players that were never out of position?

when you think of athletic bigs do you think about elton brand and chris kaman?

great defense doesnt mean shot blocks.

[turiaf for president]

when you think of athletic guys, do you think about duncan and mutombo?

when its athleticism vs positioning and timing, ill take the guy who can position himself and time his jump better every time

[z0sa]

This should be a rhetorical question to anyone who understands what blocking shots is all about. it has little to do with jumping high and everything to do with timing and position. Being a lengthy, athletic body type makes it easier to excel on the defensive end. But being lengthy and athletic does not a defender make.

[Lars]

Explosiveness and anticipation.

Check how quickly Hakeem gets from stationary to fully extended in this vid, start at 1:30 and then go to 3:45 ish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtTBK0cCnk

[BUMP]

Explosiveness.

Check how quickly Hakeem gets from stationary to fully extended in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtTBK0cCnk

wow....im so glad you shared that video with us
























































































not

:rolleyes

[Lars]

Can we get one thread with legit bball talk without the douchebags rolling in?

[dirk4mvp]

I think you can get by on freak athleticism alone, it's easier to make up for your lack of timing and positioning. If you're a timing shot blocker and you don't have freak athleticism, you HAVE to be in the right position all the time.

But I'd still rather have Duncan patrolling my paint than Birdman.

[turiaf for president]

?? dood it starts out with him gettin 3 boards cuz he was rejected twice.

[Guajalote]

Explosiveness and anticipation.

Check how quickly Hakeem gets from stationary to fully extended in this vid, start at 1:30 and then go to 3:45 ish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtTBK0cCnk

Great find.

If you watch, half of those shots were of Hakeem positioning himself for a block before the guy even picks up his dribble. Timing is key.

[dirk4mvp]

Hakeem is one of those rare guys that's always in the right position with good timing and freak athleticism.

[Lars]

Athletic freaks tend to shoot them into the stands, great shot blockers do just enough to basically make the block a steal.

[Bob Lanier]

Stromile Swift is a much better shot-blocker than Fabricio Oberto.

[Tully365]

I think the other factor that makes a great shot-blocker is brains. A guy like Duncan knows which blocks to go for and which ones to leave alone. Because of this, he is "posterized" more often than a guy like Amare, who tries to contest everything he sees.... but in important games, it's extremely rare to see Tim sitting on the bench late in the 3rd quarter or early in the 4th with foul trouble, whereas that has been a common situation for Amare, and one of the deciding factors in the Spurs/Suns rivalry of the past half decade or so.

[DAF86]

Timing more so than athleticism. There are plenty of athletic bigs that don't shot block at a good rate.

But more important than the two choices is size and length. Just as important as the two choices is effort.

Those three. Mutombo was a shot blocking beast 'till his 40's when he had no athleticism left.

[dirk4mvp]

Also, for anyone who doesn't believe me on the fact that Wilt was one of the greatest athletes to ever live, check out 2:40 on that video. On a standing jump his head is even with the rim.

I'm sure he's the only one to ever be able to do that :rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This should be a rhetorical question to anyone who understands what blocking shots is all about. it has little to do with jumping high and everything to do with timing and position. Being a lengthy, athletic body type makes it easier to excel on the defensive end. But being lengthy and athletic does not a defender make.


My whole point was a good "shot blocker" and a good "defender" are two completely different things.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Stromile Swift is a much better shot-blocker than Fabricio Oberto.


My point exactly......

[DAF86]

Stromile Swift is a much better shot-blocker than Fabricio Oberto.


My point exactly......

Duncan is a much better shot blocker than LaMarcus Aldridge

[nkdlunch]

neither. its height+wingspan

[dirk4mvp]

Hardly any effort? Yeah right. Get off the guy's nuts.


Chamberlain is also alot taller than Howard or LeBron and they probably could still do it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Duncan is a much better shot blocker than LaMarcus Aldridge

I wasn't aware Aldridge was known for great athleticism.

[z0sa]

My whole point was a good "shot blocker" and a good "defender" are two completely different things.

No it wasn't. I have the quote if you'd like. You were talking about Dirk blocking shts and said that it didn't matter (presumably about how good defensively he was), because athleticism is "a lot more important" than playing good defense.

Your story constantly fucking changes :rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

because athleticism is "a lot more important" than playing good defense.


Please find that, I never said athleticism was more important than defense. And please don't tell me what my point was, my point was that players who block a lot of shots aren't necessarily good defenders.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You were talking about Dirk blocking shts and said that it didn't matter (presumably about how good defensively he was)



yeah, my point was the fact Dirk doesn't block a lot shots doesn't make him a bad defender, since a lot of blocks doesn't necessarily = good defense, a la Amare Stoudemire.

[z0sa]

Please find that, I never said athleticism was more important than defense.



Blocking a lot of shots has a lot more to do with good athleticism than good defense.

:td

you sure do want everyone to think that's what you were saying.

[z0sa]

yeah, my point was the fact Dirk doesn't block a lot shots doesn't make him a bad defender, since a lot of blocks doesn't necessarily = good defense, a la Amare Stoudemire.

great. Athleticism still isn't "a lot more" important than good defense (timing and position).

Intelligence not your strong suit? Reiterating the point you were trying to make before you made a colossal faux pas dumbass wtf don't you know jackshit? type of error, doesn't change the fact you made the error. You even threatened this retarded poll like you were in the right.

[dirk4mvp]

When you can get your head even with the rim you can act unimpressed. Until then STFU.

What are you talking about, faggot? Get off his nuts.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:td

you sure do want everyone to think that's what you were saying.


Yes, I said it was more important to blocking shots. I never said athleticism was more important than good defense in general which you were implying I said.

You seem to think I'm saying that blocking shots is important, my whole point is that you don't need to be able to block shots to be a good defender.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

great. Athleticism still isn't "a lot more" important than good defense (timing and position).

As far as being a good shot blocker, that's what I thought we were arguing about.

As far as winning basketball games goes, of course good defense is better, I never said otherwise.

[BUMP]

Anyone who says athleticism isn't more important in blocking shots is fucking retarded.

Ben Wallace, Samuel dalembert, Dwight Howard, The Birdman, Robinson, Duncan (prime), Shaq (prime)

What do they all have in common?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Anyone who says athleticism isn't more important in blocking shots is fucking retarded.

Ben Wallace, Samuel dalembert, Dwight Howard, The Birdman, Robinson, Duncan (prime), Shaq (prime)

What do they all have in common?


Me saying "Athleticism is more important than defensive fundamentals at blocking shots," somehow turned into, "Athleticism is more important than defensive fundamentals in general." Don't ask me how.

[z0sa]

Me saying "Athleticism is a lot more important than defensive fundamentals at blocking shots," somehow turned into, "Athleticism is more important than defensive fundamentals in general." Don't ask me how.

No, you're just wrong. Defensive fundamentals are required to block shots is what I have been saying this whole time. Timing and positioning are required. Jumping out of the house is not.

The problem is with your logic. It is inherently false. If used, its the same as saying Vince Carter or LeBron James are better help defenders than Timmy or Camby because they can run much faster and jump much higher. And before you say it, the size/length argument is a totally separate discussion. First off, without size and length, most if not all big guys wouldn't be in the NBA period. What makes even Dirk so special? The fact he's a knock down shooter, or the fact he's a 7 foot knock down shooter? Second, these players reaches can be more than made up for by the verticals of the aforementioned smaller players.

btw, don't forget the 'a lot' you made sure to put in there. It's half the reason I called you out.

[JamStone]

Saying timing is more important than athleticism doesn't mean athleticism isn't required at all, and vice versa. And, there are examples of players for each side of the argument. A player like Elton Brand who doesn't have elite level athleticism, but positions well and has very long arms blocked shots at a very high rate. And, then a player like Chris Andersen, who I don't believe worries too much about positioning gets a lot of his blocks on sheer athleticism. Doesn't mean he uses no positioning or no timing, only that he relies more on his athleticism.

Athleticism is required to a certain degree, as is timing. I personally think timing is more important, but you don't forsake athleticism completely.

And, then back to my earlier post, I think size and length are more important than either timing/positioning and athleticism. That's why a guy like Shawn Bradley averaged 2.5 bpg in his career despite averaging less than 24 mpg. Even guards that block shots at a high rate for a guard, like Dwyane Wade does, have extraordinary length for their size. Most great shotblockers have 7+ foot wingspans. Then you add some athleticism and some timing, positioning, and there you go.

I'd also like to add that in terms of athleticism versus timing/positioning, sometimes that depends on what type of shot-blocker the player is. Players that block a lot of shots from behind use more athleticism than timing. Shotblockers that block shots head on with the offensive player going right at them, that takes more timing and positioning.

[cobbler]

So you'd say the 2006-2007 LA Clippers, a team that led the NBA in blocks, had a great team defense full of players that were never out of position?

You can be completely out of position on your own man and still get a block. Off ball and backside blocks often happen as a result of poor footwork initially.

[Culburn369]

Off ball and backside blocks often happen as a result of poor footwork initially.

That's Amare.

[cobbler]

That's Amare.

Yep! LBJ gets his share too.

[cobbler]

you left of the most important attribute...


1.Athleticism
2. Timing and Positioning



3. Desire :wow

[Dice]

It's a flawed poll. A guy with great timing blocks a shot-a guy with huge athleticism can be late and still get up high enough to block the shot. Which is better?

The guy with both is the one that is different than most. Andre Kerilenko immediately comes to mind. Some are saying the Birdman is going on pure athletisicm but watch a highlight reel of his blocks and you'll see him tracking the opponent and then flying up knowing he's going to wipe that shot out.

Ben Wallace had awesome hops, but he also did a fantastic job of keeping himself in position around the basket to be there to swat the shot.

Rasheed Wallace played great one on one defense against guy like Duncan and Howard. So did McDyess for that matter. Sheed blocked those guys shots by having great timing and not so much athleticism so if I had to pick which was the most important, that's the way I would lean.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You can be completely out of position on your own man and still get a block. Off ball and backside blocks often happen as a result of poor footwork initially.


This is the point I'm trying to make, thanks Cobbler :toast:

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If used, its the same as saying Vince Carter or LeBron James are better help defenders than Timmy or Camby because they can run much faster and jump much higher.


being a good help defender and being a good shot blocker are two separate things.

[DAF86]

You can be completely out of position on your own man and still get a block.

And you can have 0 athleticism and still get a block with good positioning and timing.

[Rogue]

The money used for bribing the refs is the most important thing for shot blocking, the more money you invest in the refs, the more likely you can block someone without being whistled a foul.

[Mr Bones]

My whole point was a good "shot blocker" and a good "defender" are two completely different things.

I'd say this is why Denver got better with Nene starting at center last year instead of Camby.