In case you didn't know exactly what was going on with "Cash for Clunkers".

[BacktoBasics]

I know you guys know everything. I know you guys have it all figured out so this is for the 3 or 4 people on the board that were unsure exactly whats going on here. Basically its a free pass for a dealership to misuse your voucher at your expense. I'm sure you've seen the adverts on TV...goes something like this.

New Something Something

23,000
-1000.00 dealer discount
-4500.00 Cash for Clunkers voucher
------------------
17,500.00

Lets forget about the fact that it has to be drivable so its already worth the rebate of 3,500 and probably the addition 1k too. Since the vehicle isn't going to be resold its not considered equity for the deal structure. Just for the sake of the argument.

A decent deal. Not a great one but a decent deal would be somewhere around 20% off of list (not counting fees).

So your 23,000 dollar vehicle should be priced around 18,400 to begin with. Then your voucher on top of the deal. There not doing it that way. Instead the voucher is basically being used as a giant down payment to overcome the advance for lending so the dealership doesn't have to lower its price to achieve the parameters needed for financing. Your voucher is covering the difference that would have otherwise been discounted by the dealer. You see no dealership could get a deal done with just a 1k discount and no money down. The advance is too high and the bank would simply come back and ask for either a down payment or for the dealership to lower their price.

Now usually a salesperson, sales manager or GM would come down to a reasonable figure right off the bat to earn your business with minimal down. Say 20% discount like I mentioned above. With Cash for Clunkers they make it seem like they came down on the price when all they did was apply your voucher to the bottom line to get it through financing with less issues.

Most people are simply satisfied with the good bottom line not realizing that the dealership just sold you a vehicle at near list price and used your voucher to make up the difference.

It should be a real savings not a voucher in sheeps clothing. This should be an incentive for you to purchase a vehicle not act as compensation for the lack of a profit margin had they cut you a legitimate deal.

23,000
-4600.00 Rebate and/or dealer discount
-3,500-4k voucher
---------------------------
14,900-13,900

Good luck getting your voucher applied properly or how it was intended to be applied. You got a program that was designed to put better more fuel efficient vehicles on the road with a huge financial incentive for you to ACT NOW. What you really ended up with is a program that saved you little to nothing but gave a steroid shot in the bottom line of dealership profits.

I heard (not confirmed) of one dealership up north doing things the right way. Again no confirmation on that.

Moral of the Story: Always keep a bottle of lube in the glove box of your clunker.

The End.

[Das Texan]

I'm fucked in all ways in that program anyway so fuck it.


My car isnt eligible cause I was smart enough to buy a fuel efficient vehicle.


My truck is too old, cause they pick some number out of the air of 25 years for age. fuck em.

[Fideo Castro]

I'll buy B2B's story but I'm not looking to buy a car right now.

[Frenzy]

wait wait are you saying our government teamed up with the with the big auto makers and banks is just messing with us...to get inside the wallet of john q public?


you don't say!






:deadhorse

[BacktoBasics]

wait wait are you saying our government teamed up with the with the big auto makers and banks is just messing with us...to get inside the wallet of john q public?


you don't say!






:deadhorseLook familiar?


I know you guys know everything. I know you guys have it all figured out so this is for the 3 or 4 people on the board that were unsure exactly whats going on here.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I know you guys know everything. I know you guys have it all figured out so this is for the 3 or 4 people on the board that were unsure exactly whats going on here. Basically its a free pass for a dealership to misuse your voucher at your expense. I'm sure you've seen the adverts on TV...goes something like this.

New Something Something

23,000
-1000.00 dealer discount
-4500.00 Cash for Clunkers voucher
------------------
17,500.00

Lets forget about the fact that it has to be drivable so its already worth the rebate of 3,500 and probably the addition 1k too. Since the vehicle isn't going to be resold its not considered equity for the deal structure. Just for the sake of the argument.

A decent deal. Not a great one but a decent deal would be somewhere around 20% off of list (not counting fees).

So your 23,000 dollar vehicle should be priced around 18,400 to begin with. Then your voucher on top of the deal. There not doing it that way. Instead the voucher is basically being used as a giant down payment to overcome the advance for lending so the dealership doesn't have to lower its price to achieve the parameters needed for financing. Your voucher is covering the difference that would have otherwise been discounted by the dealer. You see no dealership could get a deal done with just a 1k discount and no money down. The advance is too high and the bank would simply come back and ask for either a down payment or for the dealership to lower their price.

Now usually a salesperson, sales manager or GM would come down to a reasonable figure right off the bat to earn your business with minimal down. Say 20% discount like I mentioned above. With Cash for Clunkers they make it seem like they came down on the price when all they did was apply your voucher to the bottom line to get it through financing with less issues.

Most people are simply satisfied with the good bottom line not realizing that the dealership just sold you a vehicle at near list price and used your voucher to make up the difference.

It should be a real savings not a voucher in sheeps clothing. This should be an incentive for you to purchase a vehicle not act as compensation for the lack of a profit margin had they cut you a legitimate deal.

23,000
-4600.00 Rebate and/or dealer discount
-3,500-4k voucher
---------------------------
14,900-13,900

Good luck getting your voucher applied properly or how it was intended to be applied. You got a program that was designed to put better more fuel efficient vehicles on the road with a huge financial incentive for you to ACT NOW. What you really ended up with is a program that saved you little to nothing but gave a steroid shot in the bottom line of dealership profits.

I heard (not confirmed) of one dealership up north doing things the right way. Again no confirmation on that.

Moral of the Story: Always keep a bottle of lube in the glove box of your clunker.

The End.

i'd love to see a youtube clip of you working over a car salesman about this.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

it was a sad day, personally, whenever i heard the words "government money" in a chevy advertisement on tv. the word "government" in a supposed capitalist country. yet the idiots are still defending it. stupid. stupid.

[BacktoBasics]

i'd love to see a youtube clip of you working over a car salesman about this.Sad to say but most car salesmen don't even understand how they're getting over. They're just following orders.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Sad to say but most car salesmen don't even understand how they're getting over. They're just following orders.
53% of america is doing that. :wakeup

[NoWhereMan]

The rest are just taking orders.

[CosmicCowboy]

Cut your deal "no trade in"...get the best price you can get and then drop the clunker on them...

[BacktoBasics]

Cut your deal "no trade in"...get the best price you can get and then drop the clunker on them...That's pretty much how I'd approach it. Doesn't mean it will work though. All the dealer has to say is that he's not interested in doing business with that deal structure unless its without a trade.

...but yeah that's about all you can do to protect your money and your voucher.

[CosmicCowboy]

I always get my quotes in writing. If they tried to crab on me after I decided to add the clunker into the deal I would be ALL over their ass.

You realize that they only have to crush the engine/transmission? If you trade in a basically clean car the dealership not only gets the 4500 but they get the salvage on the body.

[bigzak25]

i don't know about all that, but i heard the best thing you can do is pay with cash and let them know upfront that your paying with cash.

[CosmicCowboy]

i don't know about all that, but i heard the best thing you can do is pay with cash and let them know upfront that your paying with cash.

:lmao

B2B in 1...2....3.....

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i don't know about all that, but i heard the best thing you can do is pay with cash and let them know upfront that your paying with cash.
doesn't whatever you pay down go straight in the salesman's pockets? up to a certain amount?

[BacktoBasics]

I always get my quotes in writing. If they tried to crab on me after I decided to add the clunker into the deal I would be ALL over their ass.

You realize that they only have to crush the engine/transmission? If you trade in a basically clean car the dealership not only gets the 4500 but they get the salvage on the body.I thought they could resell the engine and tranny but had to crush the body? Regardless its fucked.

They should have allowed the incentive (if desired) to be recuperated with your tax return at the end of the year. That would have made this a lot better. Hell even just a regular old mail in rebate would have been better. To have this plan designed around releasing the voucher to the dealer is fucked. Put the money in the hands of the people already!

[BacktoBasics]

i don't know about all that, but i heard the best thing you can do is pay with cash and let them know upfront that your paying with cash.Its what I would do if I were you.

[bigzak25]

doesn't whatever you pay down go straight in the salesman's pockets? up to a certain amount?

i'm just kidding man.

pending any scractchoff luck, i'm in no position to pay cash for anything other than an o z.


i'd definitely take b2b's advice on these matters.

[Frenzy]

Look familiar?

I guess your just captain save a ignorant person huh.



I always get my quotes in writing. If they tried to crab on me after I decided to add the clunker into the deal I would be ALL over their ass.

You realize that they only have to crush the engine/transmission? If you trade in a basically clean car the dealership not only gets the 4500 but they get the salvage on the body.


now that's interesting.


Whats your source on this? and don't say something like my awesomeness

[BacktoBasics]

I guess your just captain save a ignorant person huh.





I said what I said because there is always some know-it-all asshole on here that condescending chimes in with how much he already knows and doesn't need anyone's help. We get it. You think you got it all figured it. That's why this thread specifically wasn't for you. Its for the one or two "ignorant person" who didn't know.

Speaking of "ignorant person" hopefully CC can answer your question for you.

[Frenzy]

I said what I said because there is always some know-it-all asshole on here that condescending chimes in with how much he already knows and doesn't need anyone's help. We get it. You think you got it all figured it. That's why this thread specifically wasn't for you. Its for the one or two "ignorant person" who didn't know.

Speaking of "ignorant person" hopefully CC can answer your question for you.


well what about the assholes who think they know it all and make threads...
don't they get no love :depressed


CC told me once "i don't know a lot about anything but a little of everything"...or something like that :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

I guess your just captain save a ignorant person huh.





now that's interesting.


Whats your source on this? and don't say something like my awesomeness

I read the bill because I was considering trading up on a couple of work trucks. In case you don't believe me here's an article.

Auto recyclers leery of cash for clunkers

By CATHERINE TSAI (AP) – 2 hours ago

DENVER — Not all auto recyclers are relishing the government's new cash for clunkers program, which requires car dealers to destroy the gas-guzzlers they get as trade-ins from new car buyers.

Used engines and drive trains are a big part of recyclers' income from each scrapped car, and under the federal program those engines must be destroyed. The idea is to promote fuel efficiency and help automakers, but it comes at a time when more than a dozen U.S. auto parts suppliers have filed for bankruptcy this year.

"Why throw away good parts when the supply chain is in jeopardy? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense," said Michael Wilson, executive vice president of the Automotive Recyclers Association based in Manassas, Va.

Engines and drive trains account for 60 percent of recyclers' revenue from a used vehicle, Wilson said.

Under cash for clunkers, the government is advising car dealers to replace a trade-in's engine oil with a sodium silicate solution and run the engine to ruin it before giving or selling the car to a scrap dealer.

The Automotive Recyclers Association says that can damage otherwise sellable parts like pistons — and mean smaller profits for scrap yards, considering it can cost $700 to $1,200 to process a car, including transport and removing toxic items like mercury, Wilson said. Recyclers' profits vary but can reach several hundred dollars for a 6-year-old car.

"I haven't decided that I want the cars," said George Clark of Western Auto Recycling in Denver. Still, he said, he might make money crushing clunkers if he doesn't have to buy them from dealers.

The cash for clunkers program took effect July 1, and rules were published Friday. It offers drivers who trade in qualifying vehicles up to a $4,500 credit toward a new, more fuel-efficient car from participating dealers. The government reimburses dealers.

The Colorado Automobile Dealers Association estimates the $1 billion program could boost sales 10 percent or so for its roughly 260 dealers before it ends Nov. 1 — earlier if the federal money runs out. In April, the market research firm Auto Outlook Inc. estimated Colorado would have 108,510 new retail light-vehicle registrations in 2009.

Nationwide, an estimated 250,000 people could get credits, helping to spur sales at a time when industry sales are down 35 percent.

Some recyclers say cash for clunkers will hurt lower-income buyers who can't afford a new car, even with the federal credit. They also claim that destroying vehicles will increase prices for spare parts that lower-income customers depend on to keep their cars running.

"Now you're removing cars people could afford, and they're not available anymore," said Norm Wright, CEO of Stadium Auto and Truck Parts Inc., a Denver recycler. "There will be less cars to pull from, so the price of parts will go up."

At his warehouse next to Interstate 25, used transmissions fill shelves stacked almost as high as the 24-foot ceiling. Outside, rows of salvaged car doors hang from racks. Chrysler PT Cruisers, soon to be discontinued, are being stockpiled so parts are available for years to come.

Despite their misgivings, some auto recyclers are urging dealers to send the trade-ins to them instead of to auctioneers who could serve as middlemen for scrap yards. Recyclers and salvage auctions both have to certify they will follow rules for disposing of clunkers.

[Trainwreck2100]

Yeah i'm sure some clunkers won't find their way back on the street

[CosmicCowboy]

"H.R.2751 section (2)(c)(2)(B) permits the "selling of any parts of the disposed vehicle other than the engine block and drive train" and "retaining the proceeds from such sale".

[SonOfAGun]

Yeah i'm sure some clunkers won't find their way back on the street

omg that Jerry Springer gif is pure comedy.

[Strange Love]

i'd love to see a youtube clip of you working over a car salesman about this.

Why hasn't B2B put some of his rants on youtube?

[Sportcamper]

This weekend I saw several people with rusted out large cars & mini vans getting $3500.00 vouchers for Honda Civics that were discounted $2500.00 off sticker…However most dealers are very cautious so they do not stuck with trade-ins that they can’t get refunds for….But deals are being made…

On the downside I have had several dealers give me false information (telling me that my truck does not qualify) just to get out of participating in the program…My local Chevrolet dealer was at least up front & honest with me…They will discount HD 2500 4x4’s 6k to 9k but they don’t want to get involved with government promised vouchers that they my never see…

Obviously this program helps car companies, dealers & people who already can afford a new car but need to more incentive to do so…

[BacktoBasics]

This weekend I saw several people with rusted out large cars & mini vans getting $3500.00 vouchers for Honda Civics that were discounted $2500.00 off sticker…However most dealers are very cautious so they do not stuck with trade-ins that they can’t get refunds for….But deals are being made…

On the downside I have had several dealers give me false information (telling me that my truck does not qualify) just to get out of participating in the program…My local Chevrolet dealer was at least up front & honest with me…They will discount HD 2500 4x4’s 6k to 9k but they don’t want to get involved with government promised vouchers that they my never see…

Obviously this program helps car companies, dealers & people who already can afford a new car but need to more incentive to do so…6-9 off of a 2500 isn't too too bad. 2,500 off a Honda is a joke. Anything with a sticker MSRP over 20k should be seeing discounts of at least 4,500 if not 5k.

[Sportcamper]

BTB-Honda Civic popularity in So Cal is huge…The people who purchased new cars this past weekend essentially got 6k off sticker by trading in a rusted out pile of junk …I think they scored big time

The HD 2500’s have been on the Chevrolet lot since September 2008…We have Ka-Boys in So Cal (not real Cowboys)…Most of the Ka-Boys are currently driving Prius’s to be politically correct & to save on fuel….Big 4x4's are not selling out here….I thought the Chevy Dealer could come down a little more as well….

[Fabbs]

I heard (not confirmed) of one dealership up north doing things the right way. Again no confirmation on that.
Can you post if and when you get confirm that the up north dealership did it the right way.

If a dealership like that could be found, would going out and buying a $400 clunker (but running) for the purpose of combining it with a dealers usual come down margin (20%) make the total deal sweet?

[blizz]

Can you post if and when you get confirm that the up north dealership did it the right way.

If a dealership like that could be found, would going out and buying a $400 clunker (but running) for the purpose of combining it with a dealers usual come down margin (20%) make the total deal sweet?

No. One of the stipulations is that the car/truck has to have been insured continuously for 1 year prior to trading it in.

[blizz]

I WAS thinking about doing this with my 2dr Tahoe but couldn't stand the thought of it being destroyed. It is the first vehicle I bought on my own. It's a cool truck, you don't see too many around like them, there's nothing wrong with it, it's a good 4x4 with very low miles for it's age so there's no reason to do it. The thought of the dealer using the 4500 as a "discount" pisses me off. If you're gonna do it, make your deal without mention of the clunker and spring it on them once everything is ok - if they don't make the deal fuck em.

[tlongII]

Why aren't they restricting this to American made cars?

[BacktoBasics]

BTB-Honda Civic popularity in So Cal is huge…The people who purchased new cars this past weekend essentially got 6k off sticker by trading in a rusted out pile of junk …I think they scored big time


You are actually touching on my very point. The 6k or so off would have existed without cash for clunkers. Instead of coming down in price they simply left the price high and used your voucher to bring the price down. Basically the voucher acted as a down payment vs. a discount. Seeing 6k or so off has everyone happy in pant. Reality is they should be seeing 5k-6k off to begin with and then the extra 3-4k on top of that with the voucher.

Chrysler is offer 4,500 off plus the voucher on select units. Not too bad. If someone wants to look into that. It'll really depend on what car its offered. 4,500 + the voucher would be good on something priced around 20-25k but wouldn't be so good on a car priced up above 30k.

[Das Texan]

Ya except that Chrysler has shitty cars, especially those that are part of this program.

[Fabbs]

No. One of the stipulations is that the car/truck has to have been insured continuously for 1 year prior to trading it in.
insured by the same person trading it in as cash for clunkers?

[BacktoBasics]

insured by the same person trading it in as cash for clunkers?
Yes. They wan't this as proof of ownership.

[Das Texan]

at least they were smart enough to close that loophole about ownership.

[CosmicCowboy]

at least they were smart enough to close that loophole about ownership.

Well, if the motivation was to get gas guzzlers off the market you would think that it wouldn't matter. I heard that car max spent a fortune on lobbyists trying to get used cars included in the trade in deal.

[Nobody]

It would be nice if instead of giving everyone $4500 for clunkers, they just gave everyone 5-10K to purchase health insurance... whatever you don't use, you keep.

[CavsSuperFan]

Did anyone make a cash for clunker purchase? Mothers Cadillac is 27 years old & it did not qualify. She really wanted a new Ford Ranger.:violin

[fotan2]

Cut your deal "no trade in"...get the best price you can get and then drop the clunker on them...

then they will lower the value of your used car. or they just take it back to the "trade in" deal. the best price of "no trade in" is only for the "no trade in" deal. it is already back to a "trade in" deal when you put the clunker in front of them. no one can get away from that. dealer rules the market.

[Twisted_Dawg]

I know you guys know everything. I know you guys have it all figured out so this is for the 3 or 4 people on the board that were unsure exactly whats going on here. Basically its a free pass for a dealership to misuse your voucher at your expense. I'm sure you've seen the adverts on TV...goes something like this.

New Something Something

23,000
-1000.00 dealer discount
-4500.00 Cash for Clunkers voucher
------------------
17,500.00

Lets forget about the fact that it has to be drivable so its already worth the rebate of 3,500 and probably the addition 1k too. Since the vehicle isn't going to be resold its not considered equity for the deal structure. Just for the sake of the argument.

A decent deal. Not a great one but a decent deal would be somewhere around 20% off of list (not counting fees).

So your 23,000 dollar vehicle should be priced around 18,400 to begin with. Then your voucher on top of the deal. There not doing it that way. Instead the voucher is basically being used as a giant down payment to overcome the advance for lending so the dealership doesn't have to lower its price to achieve the parameters needed for financing. Your voucher is covering the difference that would have otherwise been discounted by the dealer. You see no dealership could get a deal done with just a 1k discount and no money down. The advance is too high and the bank would simply come back and ask for either a down payment or for the dealership to lower their price.

Now usually a salesperson, sales manager or GM would come down to a reasonable figure right off the bat to earn your business with minimal down. Say 20% discount like I mentioned above. With Cash for Clunkers they make it seem like they came down on the price when all they did was apply your voucher to the bottom line to get it through financing with less issues.

Most people are simply satisfied with the good bottom line not realizing that the dealership just sold you a vehicle at near list price and used your voucher to make up the difference.

It should be a real savings not a voucher in sheeps clothing. This should be an incentive for you to purchase a vehicle not act as compensation for the lack of a profit margin had they cut you a legitimate deal.

23,000
-4600.00 Rebate and/or dealer discount
-3,500-4k voucher
---------------------------
14,900-13,900

Good luck getting your voucher applied properly or how it was intended to be applied. You got a program that was designed to put better more fuel efficient vehicles on the road with a huge financial incentive for you to ACT NOW. What you really ended up with is a program that saved you little to nothing but gave a steroid shot in the bottom line of dealership profits.

I heard (not confirmed) of one dealership up north doing things the right way. Again no confirmation on that.

Moral of the Story: Always keep a bottle of lube in the glove box of your clunker.

The End.


BTB...you are/were 1000% correct. I went to several Mazda, Nissan, Kia, & Hyundai lots which were crawling with customers and the salesmen laughed when asked to knock more off the MSRP. And why should they when they had a lot full of people willing to pay their price.

Anyway, I stumbled into a Pontiac lot which was empty and bought a 2009 Vibe (which is made by Toyota and is the Toyota Matrix). The MSRP was like $17,750 and we got it for $9300 (drive out $10K). We got the full $4500 clunker trade in but had to get a 5-speed manual tranny. We only got that price after going through all the usual theatrics: working with the salesperson, declining and started to leave, when the "closer" arrived who lowered the price, at which point we declined and started to leave at which point we cut the deal.

Had I sold my clunker myself, I would have gotten about $2000, So I figured I paid about $11,300 for the car.

Moral of the story: Don't blame the dealers if the public is foolish enough to pay full list.

P.S. I figure the dealer made about $13,000 ( my $9300 + $3700 net clunker recovery [ $4500-$engine decomission+salvage return-addtl overhead to process program] ). So the dealer netted about what he would have before the program began.

[BacktoBasics]

BTB...you are/were 1000% correct. I went to several Mazda, Nissan, Kia, & Hyundai lots which were crawling with customers and the salesmen laughed when asked to knock more off the MSRP. And why should they when they had a lot full of people willing to pay their price.

Anyway, I stumbled into a Pontiac lot which was empty and bought a 2009 Vibe (which is made by Toyota and is the Toyota Matrix). The MSRP was like $17,750 and we got it for $9300 (drive out $10K). We got the full $4500 clunker trade in but had to get a 5-speed manual tranny. We only got that price after going through all the usual theatrics: working with the salesperson, declining and started to leave, when the "closer" arrived who lowered the price, at which point we declined and started to leave at which point we cut the deal.

Had I sold my clunker myself, I would have gotten about $2000, So I figured I paid about $11,300 for the car.

Moral of the story: Don't blame the dealers if the public is foolish enough to pay full list.

P.S. I figure the dealer made about $13,000 ( my $9300 + $3700 net clunker recovery [ $4500-$engine decomission+salvage return-addtl overhead to process program] ). So the dealer netted about what he would have before the program began.Well done friend. You worked the system, pounded the table, and walked away with a good deal.